# More On Elgin 725...



## Silver Hawk

Bill posted this topic a few months back and I've been trying to get my own Elgin 725 for several years...it really was a gapping hole in my early electric watch collection. Every time I went after one on the 'Bay, I was out bid... :taz:

But I did finally win one a few weeks ago and it arrived on Wednesday. So far so good. Before it arrived, I got in touch with Jim (ixor2) from Eire who had posted recently against Bill's original topic...we had a few phone conversations and a deal was struck....and his 725s arrived...also on Wednesday; thanks Jim :thumbsup:.

So this is bit like London buses....in this case, I've been trying to get hold on a 725 for 4-5 years and this week I now have eight (yes, 8!)  Except most of them are not 725....at this stage, I'm not too upset...read on.

First up are three photos of the eBay item. All mine are the s/steel variety...which I prefer since the gold ones are tiny. This does house the Elgin 725 and measures 34 diameter. It's a backset, so no side crown:




























Now some photos of the haul from Jim. Same case as above. First, three assembled watches on straps:










Now a few photos of the parts watches:










They all look to be 725s at this stage









[more]


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## Silver Hawk

But flip those uncased movements over and you'll see most are marked "910"....in fact all the Jim watches, except one, are 910s:




























Finally a couple of larger pictures of the 725 and 910...slight change in jewel numbers but nothing else:



















So what is a "910"? No idea...you can google all day and find nothing. The only reference to an Elgin 910 is in the Doensen bible on electric watches in which he states "The '910'. This is believed to be a prototype.". No, I'm not disappointed these are not all marked "725"


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## feenix

Great result Paul. Great pictures and informative as always, thanks for posting.


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## Larry from Calgary

Silver Hawk said:


> Finally a couple of larger pictures of the 725 and 910...slight change in jewel numbers but nothing else:
> 
> So what is a "910"? No idea...you can google all day and find nothing. The only reference to an Elgin 910 is in the Doensen bible on electric watches in which he states "The '910'. This is believed to be a prototype.". No, I'm not disappointed these are not all marked "725"


Wow! What a find! It just proves that old saying "When it rains, It pours"

I've not heard of an Elgin 910, but I also have a larger stainless case Elgin Electronic that I've assumed housed a 725. Now I'll have to take a better look at it's movement to see if it's in fact a 910. Just a WAG (wild ass guess) on my part, but I'm thinking that the 910 was a later version based on the 725. Have you had a look to see what the movement is in your other (chandler) watch yet?

Here are my comments for further discussion. The first thing I noticed is that these are all the larger stainless case style, with a rear removable battery hatch. I'm fairly certain that these cases were a later product offering from Elgin, which I would date to be circa 1963/64 versus the earlier gold cases.

I also noticed that all the movements you have have use a different coil with an external diode (black blob in the lower right hand corner). Have a closer look below at the picture of what I believe to be my oldest 725 movement.










Compare it to the one in your photo's.










The coils in your movements are definitely different, and to me look similar to those found in a LIP 148 movement. Maybe an example of the LIP influence on the Elgin design? The balance in your photo's appears to have undergone some modifications as well. You can also see that battery clips (polarity) changed to suit the rear battery hatch.

So if I had to make a WAG, I'd say that what you have is an updated and modified 725 prior to the 910 release (like a Hamilton 500A), with the 910 being an official upgrade over the 725.

All in all a good find Paul. Let us know what movement you find in your other (Chandler) watch. I've got a feeling that you're going to find that it's a 910.

I just love this forensic engineering.

Larry


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## johndozier

I have a decided interest in electric/electronic watches and this site (thanks to Silver Hawk and others) has more esoterica dealing with them than any other site in the world. Thanks gentlemen as it is always fascinating. My collection is more mundane consisting of Omega F300s.


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## jasonm

Nice one Paul, I always love reading these pots


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## seadog1408

saw these this morning in the flesh, very nice indeed, and now that they are found to be grail prototypes :jawdrop:

cheers

mike


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## Silver Hawk

Larry, you have certainly given me more detail to look at...but having looked at my Chandler one, I'm more confused than ever.

The Chandler one is marked 725 but it does have a black object stuck to the side of the coil...and the wiring looks very similar to the picture of yours. In fact, looking at yours, I think you also have something stuck to the side of your coil...it maybe white rather than black...follow the brass wire from the contact wires past the U turn and just before it passes underneath the coil to the battery post.

My Chandler 725 seems to have the same balance as yours and is not the same as those on the 910. And my Chandler 725 has the same coil as yours i.e. no mount screw at the balance end.

So my Jim 725 (below) is a bit unusual, since it has a 910 type coil (LIP style) and a 910 type balance.

So maybe this is the evolution:

1st Your two-battery 725

2nd My Jim one-battery 725 with 910 style coil and battery

3rd My 910 which were never released.

What do you think? And check what is glued to the side of your coil please


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## Larry from Calgary

Silver Hawk said:


> Larry, you have certainly given me more detail to look at...but having looked at my Chandler one, I'm more confused than ever.
> 
> The Chandler one is marked 725 but it does have a black object stuck to the side of the coil...and the wiring looks very similar to the picture of yours. In fact, looking at yours, I think you also have something stuck to the side of your coil...it maybe white rather than black...follow the brass wire from the contact wires past the U turn and just before it passes underneath the coil to the battery post.
> 
> My Chandler 725 seems to have the same balance as yours and is not the same as those on the 910. And my Chandler 725 has the same coil as yours i.e. no mount screw at the balance end.
> 
> So my Jim 725 (below) is a bit unusual, since it has a 910 type coil (LIP style) and a 910 type balance.
> 
> So maybe this is the evolution:
> 
> 1st Your two-battery 725
> 
> 2nd My Jim one-battery 725 with 910 style coil and battery
> 
> 3rd My 910 which were never released.
> 
> What do you think? And check what is glued to the side of your coil please


I think we know more about Elgin Electronics now than we ever did before. :gossip:

Here are two more pictures of the same movement. There is a build up of insulator wax ("glob") on the side of the coil where the wire leaves. I've tried to capture what it looks like in the 1st photo below.










This is what you're seeing.










Guess I'll just have to send mine to you for a closer look :derisive:

I think the evolution is like this:

1st My two-battery 725, encapsulated diode, no rear battery hatch, smaller case.

2nd My one battery 725, encapsulated diode, rear battery hatch, smaller case.

3rd Your Jim one-battery 725, with 910 style coil, external diode, rear battery hatch, larger case.

4th Your 910 one-battery, external diode, rear battery hatch, larger case. (I think this is also my larger case SS Electronic)

I'm not sure that we can say (yet) that the 910 were never released. When I purchased my larger SS case Elgin Electronic, the seller made reference to it being a 910, but because I could find no reference to that model, I've always assumed it to be a 725 movement. It is in running condition, so I've never had it out of it's case to see. I could be totally wrong and it may well be that the 910 was never released.

Maybe we can ask Jarrad what movement he has in his.

Either way it's great to be able to share information like this.

:thumbsup:


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## Silver Hawk

Larry, where is your encapsulated diode in 1st and 2nd? :huh:


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## Larry from Calgary

Silver Hawk said:


> Larry, where is your encapsulated diode in 1st and 2nd? :huh:


I think it's wrapped with the coil, opposite the balance end. I could be wrong Paul, but when I look at it, I can't see any external diode. Just two wires leaving the coil. It could be hidden underneath, just like you've said, but I can't see it.

Let me send it to you for a more detailed look and then we'll know for sure. 

Larry


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## Silver Hawk

Larry from Calgary said:


> Silver Hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Larry, where is your encapsulated diode in 1st and 2nd? :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's wrapped with the coil, opposite the balance end. I could be wrong Paul, but when I look at it, I can't see any external diode. Just two wires leaving the coil. It could be hidden underneath, just like you've said, but I can't see it.
> 
> Let me send it to you for a more detailed look and then we'll know for sure.
> 
> Larry
Click to expand...

I bet they don't have one...only on the later ones when LIP got involved. I'll try and get a photo of this black thing on the side of my Chandler 725....my other 725 (from Jim) has the normal LIP-like black one.


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## Larry from Calgary

Silver Hawk said:


> Larry from Calgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Silver Hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Larry, where is your encapsulated diode in 1st and 2nd? :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's wrapped with the coil, opposite the balance end. I could be wrong Paul, but when I look at it, I can't see any external diode. Just two wires leaving the coil. It could be hidden underneath, just like you've said, but I can't see it.
> 
> Let me send it to you for a more detailed look and then we'll know for sure.
> 
> Larry
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I bet they don't have one...only on the later ones when LIP got involved. I'll try and get a photo of this black thing on the side of my Chandler 725....my other 725 (from Jim) has the normal LIP-like black one.
Click to expand...

That would be cool! :thumbsup: Keep in mind that these were called Electronic because they did have a diode. I just can't find mine.

I'd like to see those photo's. In the meantime I have to go out and do some chores. B)

Larry


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## Silver Hawk

Larry from Calgary said:


> Keep in mind that these were called Electronic because they did have a diode. I just can't find mine.


Good point Larry...totally forgot that. :blush2:


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## Larry from Calgary

Silver Hawk said:


> Larry from Calgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that these were called Electronic because they did have a diode. I just can't find mine.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point Larry...totally forgot that. :blush2:
Click to expand...

Paul,

Here is another shot of the coil from another direction. You can see where the insulator (wax resin?) bridges between the wire and the coil.










I'm afraid that this is the best I can do to show you what this looks like.

:thumbsup:


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## Larry from Calgary

Paul,

While you were sleeping, I did a search for the Elgin Electronic 910. On the NAWCC website I found this:

"Regarding your question of where they're only two models sold. The most common Elgin electric is the 725 which was marketed for a unknown period of time. The model 910 shows up occasionally and as far as I can tell the ladies version 722 was never sold."

The most common is the 725 and the 910 shows up occasionally? Based on how scarce the 725 is, you know it's going to be hard to find a 910, but it would appear as if the 910 did hit the market for some unknown period of time.

I realise that this is just one posters comment, but still, it does add to the controversy surrounding the history of the Elgin Electronics. :help:

Larry B)


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## Silver Hawk

Larry from Calgary said:


> While you were sleeping


What a dreadful sleep...tossing-and-turning, ended up counting sheep...got to 725 and then continued to 910.

Spoke to International Dial yesterday and they have the correct dies for my Elgin dials, so I will send some of them off on Monday morning. Then I thought I might as well convert one of my white dials to a black one...but just noticed that they are quite different. The black ones (yours and Jarrets) have double flutes at 12 and no hour numerals...so I guess I'll stick with white.

Anyone else got a white dialled s/steel version? :huh:

Black (Jarrets):










White (mine) :


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## harleymanstan

Hi,

Was just reading all this interesting stuff, and got to the bottom to see my watch. I want to make a *QUICK CORRECTION*, before you have your dial done in black. *MINE IS GRAY, NOT BLACK.* Pretty much a medium gray, nowhere close to black. Sorry if the picture appears black.

Looks like you got a very nice set of rare Elgin Electronics. Good for you Paul. :thumbsup:

harleymanstan


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## Silver Hawk

harleymanstan said:


> Looks like you got a very nice set of rare Elgin Electronics. Good for you Paul. :thumbsup:
> 
> harleymanstan


Thanks Jarett....we were wondering if yours is marked 725 or 910? :huh:

And where is Bill? :search:


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## Larry from Calgary

harleymanstan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Was just reading all this interesting stuff, and got to the bottom to see my watch. I want to make a *QUICK CORRECTION*, before you have your dial done in black. *MINE IS GRAY, NOT BLACK.* Pretty much a medium gray, nowhere close to black. Sorry if the picture appears black.
> 
> Looks like you got a very nice set of rare Elgin Electronics. Good for you Paul. :thumbsup:
> 
> harleymanstan


Here are a couple of pics of mine. Same dial as Jaretts.

The only white dialed ones I've seen to date are Pauls (Chandler and the ones from Jim).



















:cheers:


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## harleymanstan

Silver Hawk said:


> harleymanstan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like you got a very nice set of rare Elgin Electronics. Good for you Paul. :thumbsup:
> 
> harleymanstan
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Jarett....we were wondering if yours is marked 725 or 910? :huh:
> 
> And where is Bill? :search:
Click to expand...

It's a 725. Should have taken pictures when I had it apart, but didn't get it done. I wonder of the ones out there, how many run? I have this one with the stainless case, and one with the gold filled case. The stainless one runs, and the other does not. I have a copy of the 725 manual, and tried to figure what was wrong with the gold filled one, but had no luck. Maybe one day??


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## John_R

As I recently joined your group and this is my first posting I thought I would add to the mystery and clarify a few things. The 910 is not a prototype it is the next evolution of Elgin's electric watches. From looking at your photographs I think all of your watches are 910â€™s. The one watch that is marked 725 is really a 910. As your watches came in pieces it suggests they probably came direct from the factory liberated one way or another by an employee. The wonderful aspect of this is we get to see what was supposedly destroyed. But you can end up with a strange mix of things.

If you look at the upper bridge other than the engraving the 725 and 910 bridges are identical. The main differences are the coil is longer and has screws on both ends, the diode is now visible and the balance wheel is considerably lighter than the previous ones.

For the diode mystery I have posted a few photographs. The 725 has a diode similar sized to the 910 but the case is transparent glass and it's attached to the side of the coil. That is why to the casual observer it's invisible. I have a close-up photograph the blob is the diode. One of the other photographs has the black 910 diodes. Then the square things are the diodes found in the 722. As I mentioned 722 I've attached a photograph of one of those.

As you're asking about the white dials I've attached a photograph with one of mine.

John


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## Silver Hawk

Hi John_R,

First, welcome to







and secondly, great to have another Elgin owner on board. Got a host of question and comments, so in no particular order:

1) Do you have any accurate dates for 722, 725 and 910 releases? Were they always sequential or were watches containing the 725 and 910, for example, sold at the same time?

2) Do you have any original (or copies) Elgin documentation on the 910? Sales brochures, tech leaflets etc

3) The diode stuck to the side of the 725 is not always clear like yours (and presumably Larry's); I have a 725 here where the diode is black like the 910 loose one. Hardly surprising really; LIP used all sorts of different diodes in their R 148.

4) I agree...based on the appearance of the balance and coil, the large movement photo of my "725" looks to be a 910 with a 725 bridge plate.

5) I do have a 725...the first three photos are of a watch with a 725. Was there any correlation between dial / case style and movement used? There are a few of us on this Forum who have 725s, but I'm the only one with a 910...and now you...but I don't have any gold cased Elgins....did these ever use a 910?

I'm sure I have other questions / comments. BTW: thanks for the photo of the tiny 722. Does it work?


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## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> As I recently joined your group and this is my first posting I thought I would add to the mystery and clarify a few things. The 910 is not a prototype it is the next evolution of Elgin's electric watches. From looking at your photographs I think all of your watches are 910â€™s. The one watch that is marked 725 is really a 910. As your watches came in pieces it suggests they probably came direct from the factory liberated one way or another by an employee. The wonderful aspect of this is we get to see what was supposedly destroyed. But you can end up with a strange mix of things.
> 
> If you look at the upper bridge other than the engraving the 725 and 910 bridges are identical. The main differences are the coil is longer and has screws on both ends, the diode is now visible and the balance wheel is considerably lighter than the previous ones.
> 
> For the diode mystery I have posted a few photographs. The 725 has a diode similar sized to the 910 but the case is transparent glass and it's attached to the side of the coil. That is why to the casual observer it's invisible. I have a close-up photograph the blob is the diode. One of the other photographs has the black 910 diodes. Then the square things are the diodes found in the 722. As I mentioned 722 I've attached a photograph of one of those.
> 
> As you're asking about the white dials I've attached a photograph with one of mine.
> 
> John


Hello John,

Those are some great photos. It's nice to know that there are other 725 owners out there. I like the picture of the clear diode from the 725. In an earlier post I had said that I knew there was a diode probably located opposite the balance wheel but that I couldn't see it. Now I know why, it's invisible.

That 722 is a rare bird indeed. That's the one that I thought was a myth. It would be great if you could post a picture of the dial and case so we can see just how small it really is.

Great to see you've found us. I hope you can expand on our discussion of Elgin Electronics.

Larry


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## John_R

I was looking at your questions and one of the problems were going to have is I have more questions than you. Even though I started my research a very long time ago so many of the key people were not found, had died or didn't want to talk. Fortunately there were still some people that had some exposure to Elgin's electronic watch but I'm afraid we're left with more mysteries and questions then answers.

Starting with question number 1 and 2 and as far as I know the 722 was never sold. The only ones I've seen cased up are in either 14 karat gold or 18 karat gold. The 910 is an incredible mystery it only shows up in stainless cases. Up until your recent discovery I only knew of five others. One of the others I knew of has a tag hanging from the case with the data of 12-02-63.

Then for the Elgin 725 from the variety of references I have I don't think it's really that clear. They supposedly did a limited test marketing in July 1962 in Chicago. Then from a variety of different sources those watches were all destroyed. The references for the destruction are very reliable but it still leaves us with unanswered questions. The service manual was printed in two versions one for one battery and one for two batteries printed in 1961. In 1962 the stockholders report they show a picture of a different Elgin electronic hinting it's going to be out soon. Then also on February 7, 1963 a rather interesting letter from Dr.C N Challacombe who at that time was the manager of R&D and product design watches. Unfortunately like all the letters that he's done he's answering somebody but we don't know who it is. This particular letter the wording is somewhat strange in that he says that â€œthe watch is planned to sellâ€. Which gives the impression to me that it's not out yet. He also gives prices of $89.50 in gold filled and $79.50 in stainless steel. What the ultimate aim of $49.50 retail although he doesn't want to be quoted on that.

Very likely I didn't answer all the questions as I'm trying to multitask between several other projects. Then I suspect my answers are more than likely going to generate more questions so I'll get to those as time permits.

Then I'm attaching a few more photographs that will partially answer one of Larry's questions and probably generate new questions. One of photographs shows a 722 square diode on the bottom of a 725 coil. It probably explains why there's a convenient hole in the main plate. When I was looking for a movement to get a picture of the invisible diode I noticed this one. Then the question I'm sure everyone's been asking or should have been why is there only one half of a watch. It should be plainly obvious what filled the other part of the case in a rather nice green color. Then for a Larry's question a group photo showing just how small is 722 is.

John


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## Silver Hawk

John_R said:


> Then the question I'm sure everyone's been asking or should have been why is there only one half of a watch. It should be plainly obvious what filled the other part of the case in a rather nice green color.


I think no-one was asking because in every reference to 725s, the assumption was that they took standard button cells -- either one or two. So borrowing Larry's photo below, the clip is to hold two button cells. I just assumed your clip was missing from the movement.










So what are you saying? That early 725s took this bespoke battery? :huh:

Great to see this *green* thing BTW.


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## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> The references for the destruction are very reliable but it still leaves us with unanswered questions. The service manual was printed in two versions one for one battery and one for two batteries printed in 1961.
> 
> Then I'm attaching a few more photographs that will partially answer one of Larry's questions and probably generate new questions. One of photographs shows a 722 square diode on the bottom of a 725 coil. It probably explains why there's a convenient hole in the main plate. When I was looking for a movement to get a picture of the invisible diode I noticed this one.
> 
> Then the question I'm sure everyone's been asking or should have been why is there only one half of a watch. It should be plainly obvious what filled the other part of the case in a rather nice green color. Then for a Larry's question a group photo showing just how small is 722 is.
> 
> John


John,

These pictures are great!

In your comments above, you mention that there were two versions of the service manual printed for the 725. Other than the obvious difference (one battery versus two batteries) why would there be a need for two manuals? I'm assuming that there were there other changes made with release of the single battery version?

I've noticed that there are a variety of different battery clips shown in the pictures of the 725 movements posted. Looks like the designers were constantly looking for different improvements to try.

That green battery pack is very interesting! Given that it would have been designed in a period when the button cell probably didn't exist and that it was built with what appears to be a plastic housing. There were a lot of engineering principles applied in it's design, both from a materials and intended application point of view. It is an elegant solution to what must have been a very difficult problem.

Of course that begs another question which you may or may not be able to answer, what battery was used with the 722 movement? When I saw your photo, I did wonder what battery would have been used and just assumed it was a single button cell.

You are correct, your photo's are raising a lot more questions.

Larry


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## ixor2

I seem to been the cause of a revival of interest in the finer points of these esoteric watches. They are better with Paul than with me! On the point of the diodes I can perhaps add a little. Remember these watches were designed by watchmakers who perhaps had little knowledge of the elementary principles of simple electric circuits. A description in words may help. There is a series circuit of the battery, the coil and the contact set. When the contacts are closed, current rises in the inductance of the coil, the rising magnetic field accelerates the balance and the contacts break. Now, the current wishes to continue to flow in the inductance, so, the voltage rises across the contact gap and the stored energy in the inductance is dissipated very quickly in the resulting spark across the contact gap. This spark of course erodes the contact material. Think of the Hamilton. It was common practice at the time to use a diode across the coils of magnetic relays which were in commom use at the time. So, enter the diode in the Lip and the Elgin. However, the diode supresses the spark by providing an alternate path for the current which continues to flow for a longer time, the decaying magnetic field taking energy from the balance the force being in the opposite direction to that which accelerated the balance. If anyone has the time try disconnecting the diode and you should observe an increase in balance amplitude. So, contact erosion or a low Q oscillatory system.

The Hamilton was quite a good watch until the contacts gave out. I suspect the Elgin/Lip were not quite as good.


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## Larry from Calgary

Thanks again John for posting the picture of the green Elgin designed and manufactured power cell. It's hard to comprehend the level of design skills and the leading edge efforts required when this battery was first engineered, in say 1952 or shortly after. It's amazing to see just how much of an effort Elgin chose to undertake to design and manufacture "the watch of tomorrow".

I've always wondered why the battery clips appeared to be an afterthought. Now I know.










Not much there to hold the batteries in a correct position which probably lead to a lot of intermittent failures.

:cheers:


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## John_R

My apologies for not getting back to you sooner as one of Paul's questions has been bothering me. I think I may know the answer but I wanted to do more research before I let you know the answer.

Larry I'm going to give you some partial answers and a picture you requested. The reason why there are two manuals is I don't think they knew which one they were going to sell at the time they printed the manual.

The picture shows one of the few 722â€™s in a case. Unfortunately I'm missing the photo of the back but it gives you an idea of how the 722 fit in the case. You'll notice there is no screws on the movement for attaching the battery. When I have a chance I will take some photographs of the side of the movement so you can see how the battery would've made contact.

John


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## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> My apologies for not getting back to you sooner as one of Paul's questions has been bothering me. I think I may know the answer but I wanted to do more research before I let you know the answer.
> 
> Larry I'm going to give you some partial answers and a picture you requested. The reason why there are two manuals is I don't think they knew which one they were going to sell at the time they printed the manual.
> 
> The picture shows one of the few 722â€™s in a case. Unfortunately I'm missing the photo of the back but it gives you an idea of how the 722 fit in the case. You'll notice there is no screws on the movement for attaching the battery. When I have a chance I will take some photographs of the side of the movement so you can see how the battery would've made contact.
> 
> John


John,

"I don't think they knew which one they were going to sell at the time they printed the manual" sums it up quite nicely.

I did notice that there were no battery screws on the 722 and realized that the 725 battery would've been too big. I'll make a guess that there was a slot in the movement base for the battery tabs to slide into. It was likely this battery that caused most or a lot of the design problems for the Elgin designers.

The 722 dial design is very similar to Wittnauer electric that Paul has. I noticed that it says "Lord Elgin" but wasn't the 722 supposed to be a ladies watch (Lady Elgin)?

Larry


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## John_R

I found my information regarding the 910. I also have a considerably longer story which would take several paragraphs. So I'm going to give the extreme short version unless someone shows interest in the longer version. The photograph is of a patent filed October 14, 1963. It is not exactly the same as the 910 but extremely close. Besides the US patent there was also a Swiss and French version of this patent.

John


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## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> I found my information regarding the 910. I also have a considerably longer story which would take several paragraphs. So I'm going to give the extreme short version unless someone shows interest in the longer version. The photograph is of a patent filed October 14, 1963. It is not exactly the same as the 910 but extremely close. Besides the US patent there was also a Swiss and French version of this patent.
> 
> John


John,

The patent below then is *not *the 910 but *another *planned release? I for one would like to read your longer story. :notworthy:

Regards,

Larry


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## Larry from Calgary

Larry from Calgary said:


> John_R said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found my information regarding the 910. I also have a considerably longer story which would take several paragraphs. So I'm going to give the extreme short version unless someone shows interest in the longer version. The photograph is of a patent filed October 14, 1963. It is not exactly the same as the 910 but extremely close. Besides the US patent there was also a Swiss and French version of this patent.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> The patent below then is *not *the 910 but *another *planned release? I for one would like to read your longer story. :notworthy:
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Larry
Click to expand...

I think I can see the difference! *They went back to the shorter coil styled after the one used with the 722, mounted it at one end (opposite the balance wheel) like the 725, with an external diode like they used in the 910.*

Am I correct?

Larry


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## John_R

I think the 910 is a slight evolution beyond the one in the patent. The coil is slightly shorter and the arrangement of the screws are different. You'll notice the holes for the screws are really slots as opposed to 725 holes. To understand this I have a picture with three of the coils. You'll notice the 722 coil is considerably shorter than the others. The middle one very likely is the one from the patent and for comparison there's a 725 coil.

Then the side photo of the 722 showing the contact for the battery. Then two pictures of a 722 next to one of the prototypes from 1952.

The reason for the small size of the prototype this was a project that began in the 30s and the watch was supposed to be sized the same as the watches at that time.. It's a shame they didn't start with a pocket watch and go the other direction.

John


----------



## dombox40

So who picked this up then?, I think the seller thought it was going to make a lot more than this. Item No 390175246429


----------



## Silver Hawk

dombox40 said:


> So who picked this up then?, I think the seller thought it was going to make a lot more than this. Item No 390175246429


No idea.


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> I think the 910 is a slight evolution beyond the one in the patent. The coil is slightly shorter and the arrangement of the screws are different. You'll notice the holes for the screws are really slots as opposed to 725 holes. To understand this I have a picture with three of the coils. You'll notice the 722 coil is considerably shorter than the others. The middle one very likely is the one from the patent and for comparison there's a 725 coil.
> 
> Then the side photo of the 722 showing the contact for the battery. Then two pictures of a 722 next to one of the prototypes from 1952.
> 
> The reason for the small size of the prototype this was a project that began in the 30s and the watch was supposed to be sized the same as the watches at that time.. It's a shame they didn't start with a pocket watch and go the other direction.
> 
> John


John,

You're leaving me with more questions with each post you add. You mentioned that this project was started in the 30's? I am amazed at the technology they were trying to develop. If one were trying to design a miniature battery without seeing one they'd probably come up with something that looked just like the one they did. Do you know what kind of electrolytes they used in its construction?

Were there any watches released for sale with the Elgin designed battery or did Elgin drop this R&D exercise in its entirety?

I am enjoying your stories and pictures.

Larry :notworthy:


----------



## John_R

One of the things you want to remember when Elgin was trying to make an electronic watch that it was an incredibly diverse company making things way beyond watches. They had an electronic division producing very small relays, microphones and they were researching transistors.. They were producing a lot of things for the military that was using electrical components.

The battery uses indium and some of the specifications of interest it's not supposed to leak and can be manufactured in almost any desired shape. From the literature I have their actively promoting their battery in 1955 and after that I don't see any mention of it. They did file several patents for their battery. It looks like the last one was filed in November 1956.

The only real clue we have as to when they dropped their battery was they had both 722 and 725 movements in 1956. The 722 was obviously designed solely to use their battery. The 725 had options with the screw terminals.

As you like pictures I have a copy of the warranty card. From the very tiny number printed on the card they printed it July 1962. Then because it was an odd size to scan I overlapped the middle as it unfolds in three separate pages. Then pictures of the replacement Mallory W-1battery that has the same date as the warranty card. Unfortunately it's hard to see the battery as it didn't last forever and has leaked.

John


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> One of the things you want to remember when Elgin was trying to make an electronic watch that it was an incredibly diverse company making things way beyond watches. They had an electronic division producing very small relays, microphones and they were researching transistors.. They were producing a lot of things for the military that was using electrical components.
> 
> The battery uses indium and some of the specifications of interest it's not supposed to leak and can be manufactured in almost any desired shape. From the literature I have their actively promoting their battery in 1955 and after that I don't see any mention of it. They did file several patents for their battery. It looks like the last one was filed in November 1956.
> 
> The only real clue we have as to when they dropped their battery was they had both 722 and 725 movements in 1956. The 722 was obviously designed solely to use their battery. The 725 had options with the screw terminals.
> 
> As you like pictures I have a copy of the warranty card. From the very tiny number printed on the card they printed it July 1962. Then because it was an odd size to scan I overlapped the middle as it unfolds in three separate pages. Then pictures of the replacement Mallory W-1battery that has the same date as the warranty card. Unfortunately it's hard to see the battery as it didn't last forever and has leaked.


John,

On the warranty card for watch model it says "See number stamped on back of watch". Do you have an example of the number sequence breakdown? Does it list model number and movement type?

Larry










:dontgetit:


----------



## Silver Hawk

Wow! Thanks so much for those scans of the warranty card and battery. I love this early literature. :thumbsup:

John, would you mind emailing me please at [email protected] ?


----------



## John_R

Larry

To answer your question we're going to have to assume something that the case in question is the model 2051. This is the most common one people have, the 10k gold filled one either with the battery hatch or without. Then the reason to assume it's this case is it's the only one with the serial number on the back of the watch and it's the most common case found.

Officially there's nothing left to explain what the serial numbers mean. But I have a database of all the cases I've been exposed to. There's several things you learn by looking at this case despite having one model number it comes in two variations. On casual looking some of them did not have battery hatches. But casual looking does not reveal some of the confusing things. For this model number none of them originally had an opening for the battery. If you look at the information stamped inside the case it's in the center. When they put the opening in the stamping has been somewhat removed. If you look at the stainless steel case where obviously the battery was definitely not an afterthought. The maker's name, model number and serial number are very readable to the side of the opening. On some cases you have not seen when they put the battery opening in you can not even read the model number or the serial number. Then there is the other minor problem the cases without openings for batteries are designed slightly differently. The engraving on the back and the serial number are in a different location. Then the Crystal fits differently rather than a groove inside the case there is one on the outside. Almost like a different model number but they do have the same model number inside if they left enough of it to be read.

So if we look at the lowest serial number I have and the highest serial number and a little math we come up with about 12,000 serial numbers. The problem with the database they are is only 55 cases in it. But the spread of numbers I have looks very good. The meaning of this is the lowest serial number is 56xxx and the highest 68xxx. So numerically we have a 56 and 57 that it jumps to 60 where the numbers are consistently spread out to the end. So worst case we are missing a couple of thousand in the middle possibly.

Other little confusing things the first seven serial numbers are missing openings for the battery. Then they are scattered randomly to the very last serial number which does not have an opening. Then for those of you keeping score 19 of those are missing the openings. Then those 18 have plastic glued inside the case because it was necessary if you are using the cell strap for two batteries. Then the only watch ever found in this case has been the 725.

In case you're still not confuse I have attach some photographs one of them is a case you haven't seen it is 14k gold filled and you'll notice that we can't read the model number or the serial number. Then two pictures of the different styles of 2051 case. This particular case without the opening for the battery also has additional milling inside.

John


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> Larry
> 
> To answer your question we're going to have to assume something that the case in question is the model 2051. This is the most common one people have, the 10k gold filled one either with the battery hatch or without. Then the reason to assume it's this case is it's the only one with the serial number on the back of the watch and it's the most common case found.
> 
> John


Thanks John,

It's quite easy to see the model number in this shot










Thanks,

Larry

I have another question. In your photograph there is a plastic piece fixed to the bottom of the case. Was this to isolate the battery(s) from the case or to isolate the movement from the case? The reason I ask is because in the next picture you can clearly make out two dark circular shadows which I believe to be caused from the batteries. Therefore the plastic strip must have been to isolate the movement? Why? You may not be able to answer this, but I suspect it was to try and isolate a phenomena that I haven't come across in a long time, relay "Drop-out".










John, do you know what the following part (read plastic piece) is used for?










Here is the rest of the watch shown in the pictures above. The red thunder bolt second hand seems rare.










Larry


----------



## John_R

Larry

Attached are photographs showing the different arrangements for batteries. Whether you have one or two batteries someplace they have insulation. For the two batteries the installation pieces is found in the case. Then for one battery is on the dial. If you look carefully at the case you have you can see where the insulation was once was as a slight yellow discoloration. The dark circles on the dial were probably caused by the leaking battery and the reaction with silver plating of the dial.

The red plastic thingy is the movement holder for servicing the watch. They seem to be more scarce than the watches. Combined with the metal battery clip you could run the watch outside of the case.

As you've noticed with the lightning bolt red hand Elgin was trying lots of different design ideas.

John


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> For the two batteries the installation pieces is found in the case. Then for one battery is on the dial. If you look carefully at the case you have you can see where the insulation was once was as a slight yellow discoloration. The dark circles on the dial were probably caused by the leaking battery and the reaction with silver plating of the dial.


John,

In the two battery watch, the insulation would be placed under the movement. Was the intent to completely isolate the movement from the case [battery (+) POSITIVE]?

Larry


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John,

Of course I have one last question regarding the Elgin Electronic.

Shortly after WWII, there was a technology exchange between Elgin and LIP regarding their research and development of the electronic watch. So the big question is......who gained the most?

Is the LIP R27 the result of USA based research at Elgin, or is the Elgin 722/725 a result of France based research at LIP? In other words who benefited more from the electric watch research and technology exchange?

Larry


----------



## John_R

Larry from Calgary said:


> John_R said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the two batteries the installation pieces is found in the case. Then for one battery is on the dial. If you look carefully at the case you have you can see where the insulation was once was as a slight yellow discoloration. The dark circles on the dial were probably caused by the leaking battery and the reaction with silver plating of the dial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> In the two battery watch, the insulation would be placed under the movement. Was the intent to completely isolate the movement from the case [battery (+) POSITIVE]?
> 
> Larry
Click to expand...

Larry

The reason why the insulator is in the case is to keep the negative terminal of the battery shorting to the case. It would be much better if I had a picture of the side view but I couldn't find a suitable battery. If you did have a side view we see that the negative terminal of the battery and the battery connector are even with the movement. Then as the movement is only held in with the movement ring it's somewhat free to move around so I think the fear is it's going to touch the back of the case.

John


----------



## John_R

Larry from Calgary said:


> John,
> 
> Of course I have one last question regarding the Elgin Electronic.
> 
> Shortly after WWII, there was a technology exchange between Elgin and LIP regarding their research and development of the electronic watch. So the big question is......who gained the most?
> 
> Is the LIP R27 the result of USA based research at Elgin, or is the Elgin 722/725 a result of France based research at LIP? In other words who benefited more from the electric watch research and technology exchange?
> 
> Larry


Larry

For the question of who gained the most that's a very good question that I don't have an answer for.

From the material I have lip did have their own electric watch when they approached Elgin. You do have to wonder why a company that has a successful product would approach another company unless they were having a problem. If you look at the various generation of Elgin watches you'll see they follow a common theme and they look more or less the same being improved with each generation. Then as you've now seen the 910 what would the next watch look like after that? I've attached a copy of a letter from Dr. Challacombe the second paragraph is the one that you should find interesting.

John


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> Larry from Calgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> Of course I have one last question regarding the Elgin Electronic.
> 
> Shortly after WWII, there was a technology exchange between Elgin and LIP regarding their research and development of the electronic watch. So the big question is......who gained the most?
> 
> Is the LIP R27 the result of USA based research at Elgin, or is the Elgin 722/725 a result of France based research at LIP? In other words who benefited more from the electric watch research and technology exchange?
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> For the question of who gained the most that's a very good question that I don't have an answer for.
> 
> From the material I have lip did have their own electric watch when they approached Elgin. You do have to wonder why a company that has a successful product would approach another company unless they were having a problem. If you look at the various generation of Elgin watches you'll see they follow a common theme and they look more or less the same being improved with each generation. Then as you've now seen the 910 what would the next watch look like after that? I've attached a copy of a letter from Dr. Challacombe the second paragraph is the one that you should find interesting.
> 
> John
Click to expand...

John,

That is a very interesting document indeed. It is easy to see the similarities between the LIP and Elgin designs. There have been comments in our posts relating to the similarities. It's my understanding that the LIP R-148 was one of their more successful movements in the number of sales. The R-148 also has a reputation of being a very robust design.

One can only wonder what Elgin might have been able to do with their electronic watch designs had things turned out differently, or if fate had been a little kinder.

Do you have any projections of what the next watch might have looked like?

Larry


----------



## Silver Hawk

Larry from Calgary said:


> The R-148 also has a reputation of being a very robust design.


The R-148 / 184 is a great movement in my experience. The only time it doesn't run is when its been damaged by a careless watchmaker; they either wreck the two contact wires or damage the coils. But the movement never seems to fail on its own accord and doesn't "wear out" like the Hamilton 500 and 505.

It must have been a good seller for LIP as well; it turns up in many different brands of watch.


----------



## hamiltonelectric

Has anyone encountered this particular dial variation?



















I bought this one about 15 years ago, purportedly as a prototype. It is a two-battery configuration and as you can see the case back is machined as in pictures on the previous page. The crystal fits over the bezel. Very odd. The serial number on the back of the case is S056235.


----------



## Silver Hawk

hamiltonelectric said:


> Has anyone encountered this particular dial variation?
> 
> I bought this one about 15 years ago, purportedly as a prototype. It is a two-battery configuration and as you can see the case back is machined as in pictures on the previous page. The crystal fits over the bezel. Very odd. The serial number on the back of the case is S056235.


Never seen that one before....does look like a prototype.

Welcome to :rltb: Is that you RenÃ©? :huh:


----------



## mel

hamiltonelectric said:


> Has anyone encountered this particular dial variation?


Now! I don't usually like dials without the "hour" numbers, but that is *rather* nice! Very elegant and simple, yet easily read to tell the time - which is of course, what watches should be about! :yes:

But also it does look like it's been "hand drawn" by - say - an excellent draughtsman or technical artist!

(I'd buy a modern watch with this dial anytime :man_in_love: )


----------



## Larry from Calgary

hamiltonelectric said:


> Has anyone encountered this particular dial variation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I bought this one about 15 years ago, purportedly as a prototype. It is a two-battery configuration and as you can see the case back is machined as in pictures on the previous page. The crystal fits over the bezel. Very odd. The serial number on the back of the case is S056235.


It does look like a prototype of some sort. There was a picture posted earlier of the 1952 Elgin prototype which was based on their 722 movement with it's stem out of the side at the 3:00 position.

Maybe John R will confirm this, but it looks to me like you have a prototype of the Elgin 725 movement.

Thanks for posting and welcome to the forum.

:kewlpics:


----------



## John_R

hamiltonelectric said:


> Has anyone encountered this particular dial variation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I bought this one about 15 years ago, purportedly as a prototype. It is a two-battery configuration and as you can see the case back is machined as in pictures on the previous page. The crystal fits over the bezel. Very odd. The serial number on the back of the case is S056235.


Hamiltonelectric

I would like to thank you for posting pictures of your watch and giving us the serial number of the case. Of the 14 previously known dials yours is a slight variation of one of them. The dial that I have is basically the same except it has additional lines every five minutes on the dial. If you look carefully at Hamiltonelectricâ€™s you can see where the lines should have been. Then there's another variation of this dial which I also have in the picture.

The serial number of your case puts it at almost the very bottom of my database I only have two other cases with serial numbers lower.

Several times in this discussion I've seen the term prototype I'm curious as to whether anyone has a definition of what a prototype is? I thought once they had a model number it wasn't a prototype. But Elgin did have lots of variations. For instance the 725 movement in the photograph has a balance wheel that I doubt any of you have ever seen. It's not the same as the balance wheel on the prototype.

John


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> For instance the 725 movement in the photograph has a balance wheel that I doubt any of you have ever seen. It's not the same as the balance wheel on the prototype.
> 
> John


John,

I'm glad that you were able to share additional comments regarding the watch shown in the picture hamiltonelectric posted earlier.

The problem that I have with the Elgin Electronic watches is that there is very little information available about them. I think I have seen more photos and have read more about them in this one thread than in all previous threads combined.

Thanks for posting.

Larry

:kewlpics:


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R

Was there a correlation between the case serial numbers and the movement type used?

Larry


----------



## John_R

Larry from Calgary said:


> John_R
> 
> Was there a correlation between the case serial numbers and the movement type used?
> 
> Larry


Larry

If I look at the various cases styles and their serial numbers we don't have enough samples. For instance the 2051 10k gold filled case only has only 725 movements. But whether the case has a hatch for the battery seems to be almost entirely random through the serial numbers. For the stainless steel 2552 case I have 24 serial numbers. Of those 7 have 725 movements and 8 have 910 movements. Then they appear to be randomly scattered through the serial numbers.

John


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> Larry from Calgary said:
> 
> 
> 
> John_R
> 
> Was there a correlation between the case serial numbers and the movement type used?
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> If I look at the various cases styles and their serial numbers we don't have enough samples. For instance the 2051 10k gold filled case only has only 725 movements. But whether the case has a hatch for the battery seems to be almost entirely random through the serial numbers. For the stainless steel 2552 case I have 24 serial numbers. Of those 7 have 725 movements and 8 have 910 movements. Then they appear to be randomly scattered through the serial numbers.
> 
> John
Click to expand...

John,

You posts always leave me with more questions. "For the stainless steel 2552 case I have 24 serial numbers. Of those 7 have 725 movements and 8 have 910 movements". So what movements are in the other 9 cases? Are they empty or do they house 722 movements?

You only have serial numbers for 24 stainless steel 2552 cases? That doesn't sound like very many. How about the 10k gold filled cases. How many serial numbers do you have? Are these watches really that scarce?

Larry


----------



## Silver Hawk

John_R said:


> Larry
> 
> If I look at the various cases styles and their serial numbers we don't have enough samples. For instance the 2051 10k gold filled case only has only 725 movements. But whether the case has a hatch for the battery seems to be almost entirely random through the serial numbers. For the stainless steel 2552 case I have 24 serial numbers. Of those 7 have 725 movements and 8 have 910 movements. Then they appear to be randomly scattered through the serial numbers.
> 
> John


John,

Do the "8 have 910 movements" include the 6 s/steel case numbers with 910s that I sent you?


----------



## John_R

Larry

The number 24 can be considered a large number if you're comparing it to zero. The reason why I don't know what was in the other cases is the people who gave me the serial numbers didn't tell me what was in the case. I suspect in the case of the stainless steel cased watches they probably didn't know there was a 910 so they just assumed that I would know that it was a 725 and they didn't bother to tell me.

As you think the number 24 might be considered scarce some of the other cases are more scarce. The 722 is only been found cased up in one 18k gold case and one 14k gold case. As you're keeping track there's only one 18k gold case. There is 5 of the 14k and three of these have 725 movements. Then there's a few other case styles that I have seen but they didn't come with movements and the quantities are extremely small. There is one dial that's a small square shape and only fits the prototype movement or 722 that definitely had a different case style that's never been seen. Then there's a couple of cases that can be found only in photographs.

Then for your question of just how scarce is the most commonly available Elgin 10k gold filled 2051 case. One of the nice things about this case is the serial number is on the back so some of the numbers have come from eBay. Then the rest came from other collectors and my own collection. So just how scarce it is the number 57? Then just a reminder 57 is the number of cases some of these didn't have a watch and it.

Actually I find some of these numbers quite huge considering that supposedly they were all destroyed. The very first time I heard about Elgin making a electric watch comes from a person who said he had the only one in existence. His was a salesman sample that he somehow liberated from the salesman and all the rest had been recalled by the factory and destroyed. There are several other stories like this of how they were all destroyed. So suddenly less than 100 known to exist on the entire planet suddenly looks like a big number compared to they were all destroyed.

John


----------



## John_R

Silver Hawk said:


> John_R said:
> 
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> If I look at the various cases styles and their serial numbers we don't have enough samples. For instance the 2051 10k gold filled case only has only 725 movements. But whether the case has a hatch for the battery seems to be almost entirely random through the serial numbers. For the stainless steel 2552 case I have 24 serial numbers. Of those 7 have 725 movements and 8 have 910 movements. Then they appear to be randomly scattered through the serial numbers.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> Do the "8 have 910 movements" include the 6 s/steel case numbers with 910s that I sent you?
Click to expand...

Paul

I've already added all your serial numbers to my database so yes the numbers you include yours. So if you're really asking the question of do you have the biggest collection of 910 watches on the planet unless some more come out of hiding it looks like it.

John


----------



## John_R

Silver Hawk said:


> John_R said:
> 
> 
> 
> Larry
> 
> If I look at the various cases styles and their serial numbers we don't have enough samples. For instance the 2051 10k gold filled case only has only 725 movements. But whether the case has a hatch for the battery seems to be almost entirely random through the serial numbers. For the stainless steel 2552 case I have 24 serial numbers. Of those 7 have 725 movements and 8 have 910 movements. Then they appear to be randomly scattered through the serial numbers.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> Do the "8 have 910 movements" include the 6 s/steel case numbers with 910s that I sent you?
Click to expand...

Paul

I've already added all your serial numbers to my database so yes the numbers you include yours. So if you're really asking the question of do you have the biggest collection of 910 watches on the planet unless some more come out of hiding it looks like it.

John


----------



## Silver Hawk

John_R said:


> So if you're really asking the question of do you have the biggest collection of 910 watches on the planet unless some more come out of hiding it looks like it.
> 
> John


John, I wouldn't be so bold....oh, go on then :lol: ...

Do I have the biggest collection of 910 watches on the planet?


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> Then for your question of just how scarce is the most commonly available Elgin 10k gold filled 2051 case. One of the nice things about this case is the serial number is on the back so some of the numbers have come from eBay. Then the rest came from other collectors and my own collection. So just how scarce it is the number 57? Then just a reminder 57 is the number of cases some of these didn't have a watch and it.


John,

How did you obtain the information regarding other collectors' watches? Do you have a website? How many Elgin electronic do you own?

Larry

:cheers:


----------



## Silver Hawk

Unless you're "into" very early electric watches....prepare to be bored. :lol:

Finally found some time to work on my 725 and 910 Elgin Electronics...and have been comparing the two movements. There are more differences between these two movements than I first realized, so took a few photos and I'm slowly putting a list together of the differences.

Seems I also have a hybrid; I'd love to hear John's view on this one but more of that after the first two photos.


Column 1: two normal 725 movements

Column 2: an unusual 725 (more below) and non-standard 910

Column 3: normal 910 movements











Another shot of the 910 movements:










The main differences seem to be:




910 has a re-designed, lighter balance but still retains the balance horn of the 725 and the same hacking clip of the 725

910 has a re-designed coil with mounting screws at each end; 725 has its two screws on the non-horn end.

910 has a re-designed movement plate to support the changed mountings of the coil

910 coil has a more prominent horn (similar to Lip R148)

910 has two contact wires (similar to Lip R148); 725 has a single contact wire

910 has a free-floating diode; 725 has the diode stuck to the coil

910 has 14 jewels to the 15 of the 725

910 train bridge is reduced around the right hand screw to give additional clearance for new insulated wires (red arrow below)


So on to my hybrid below. The movement in the top right is marked as a 725 and yet it has 910 features: coil, two contact wires, balance, loose diode. John thought this was due to someone changing the train bridge plate for a 725 one but on closer inspection, this 725 marked plate also has the plate reduction (see red arrow) around the right hand screw hole to give added clearance for the 910 coil wires. So is this a transitional movement between 725 and 910? :huh:










Now to get some of these movements up-and-running. Sadly, a few of the balances have broken pivots, so out of the 10 movements, probably only 6 or 7 will ever run again.


----------



## watchnutz

Very cool info my friend. To think it doesn't seem that long ago we were trying to get you your first Elgin 725!

I would have to a swag and say that is most likely a transitional movement or possibly even a lab developement model.


----------



## Silver Hawk

watchnutz said:


> To think it doesn't seem that long ago we were trying to get you your first Elgin 725!


London Buses, Bill....London Buses!


----------



## mel

I got hooked again on this thread and read it right from the start through to now :yes:

Wonderful stuff. Given the age of these 725/910 movements, you have to realise that even the (very simple) electronics involved of the diode across the contacts were at the cutting edge of the time - especially the extremely small size of the diodes used. Transistors of the day were cased up in tubes around 4.5mm in diameter and up to 8mm tall. Producing a diode - sort of half a transistor really - at the small size used in these movements would have been a pretty major challenge at the time. :yes:

I have seen "ball diodes" before, but they were around maybe four or more times the size in the 725/910 movements, and ISTR they were nearly all Germanium Diodes rather than Silicon. One of the problems with Germanium is that the material can "whisker" across and short the diode out totally - the quickest diagnosis for this is just snip one leg of the diode and if the item goes, you need a new diode! :yes:

Unfortunately, after this length of time, any replacement NOS Germanium Diode may also have "whiskered", they can do this in use or in storage. Glass encased diodes are also usually Germanium with the same problems. You won't find this documented anywhere nowadays ("whiskering") it's something old time Radio Engineers like myself just knew about from long term repair work. All you can do is check forward and reverse on a meter and reject any shorts or unusuals before use. I'd hazard a guess this might be tricky on the size of diode used in the Elgin's due to the voltage from a meter maybe overloading the diode and leaving it open circuit - not easy! :yes:

Anyway thanks guys for a good read, lots to digest and ponder there!


----------



## Larry from Calgary

Very nice Paul. It's good to see those 910s again!

Once we are finished with this thread, I think we should have it pinned. There is more information here, in this single thread, regarding the history of the Elgin electronic watch than what can be found anywhere on the internet. What say you?

:rltb:


----------



## martinus_scriblerus

Larry from Calgary said:


> Once we are finished with this thread, *I think we should have it pinned.* There is more information here, in this single thread, regarding the history of the Elgin electronic watch than what can be found anywhere on the internet. What say you?
> 
> :rltb:


I agree. I don't recall any thread on the electric forum that has had ANYWHERE near the readership as this thread. I don't have one of these watches (although I've been tempted - but I really need to stick to Hamiltons and the Landeron based watches) but it sure has been interesting reading.


----------



## mel

Paul, question!

What's the current consumption of one of these movements? I've had a *daft idea* that maybe (just maybe) the "green thing" isn't actually a cell, but might be a high capacity capacitor they were trialling as a power source - the only way to find out would be to split one down and see what's inside the "potting" compound.

If it turned out that was the case, it would make these movements very hi-tech for the day, and almost kinetic in a sense. And it might be possible to "re-charge" a green thing using a very low current over a long time period? Mind you, that might be possible for the green thing if it were a cell as well :yes:

So many things to look at with these, I wish my eyes were better to get a better look at them!


----------



## Silver Hawk

mel said:


> Paul, question!
> 
> What's the current consumption of one of these movements? I've had a *daft idea* that maybe (just maybe) the "green thing" isn't actually a cell, but might be a high capacity capacitor they were trialling as a power source - the only way to find out would be to split one down and see what's inside the "potting" compound.
> 
> If it turned out that was the case, it would make these movements very hi-tech for the day, and almost kinetic in a sense. And it might be possible to "re-charge" a green thing using a very low current over a long time period? Mind you, that might be possible for the green thing if it were a cell as well :yes:
> 
> So many things to look at with these, I wish my eyes were better to get a better look at them!


Mel,

I don't think any of us (me, Larry, Bill) own one of these "green things"...only John I imagine. Not having one is not a problem; it's easy to get the 725s and 910s running on standard button cells.


----------



## John_R

mel said:


> Paul, question!
> 
> What's the current consumption of one of these movements? I've had a *daft idea* that maybe (just maybe) the "green thing" isn't actually a cell, but might be a high capacity capacitor they were trialling as a power source - the only way to find out would be to split one down and see what's inside the "potting" compound.
> 
> If it turned out that was the case, it would make these movements very hi-tech for the day, and almost kinetic in a sense. And it might be possible to "re-charge" a green thing using a very low current over a long time period? Mind you, that might be possible for the green thing if it were a cell as well :yes:
> 
> So many things to look at with these, I wish my eyes were better to get a better look at them!


Answering the questions out of order regarding the "green thing". It is a battery I've attached a scanned image from a Elgin publication September 1955. The publication was describing Electronics at Elgin. You'll notice in the description they call it a indium battery. In some other patents though they make reference to mercury oxide. So I suspect they were working on several different methods to make batteries.

John


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> Answering the questions out of order regarding the "green thing". It is a battery I've attached a scanned image from a Elgin publication September 1955. The publication was describing Electronics at Elgin. You'll notice in the description they call it a indium battery. In some other patents though they make reference to mercury oxide. So I suspect they were working on several different methods to make batteries.
> 
> John


Good to see you posting again John.

Talk about leading edge technology! Indium is still being used in long life batteries today.

:cowboy:


----------



## Silver Hawk

Larry from Calgary said:


> Good to see you posting again John.


+1 :thumbsup:

John certainly is the fountain of all knowledge when it comes to these Elgins. The documentation and artefacts he is posting is unique. :notworthy:


----------



## mel

Thanks John, info regarding the Elgin battery! :yes:

Using indium would indeed have been very leading edge back then, I would suspect a high manufacturing failure rate would have been the major problem. Many (transistor, diode, cell, solid state device) makers were having considerable problems maintaining a comfortable successful production rate during the period - miniaturisation, new technologies, new materials - all contributing towards failure rates up to 50% straight off the component production lines! Not good for the cash balance books









Great topic, should be archived somewhere, for sure! Paul, a synopsis on your website wouldn't go amiss either, cut out all my rubbish, I'm getting dodd---


----------



## Silver Hawk

Well the restoration / servicing of the movements is going pretty well, but I cannot say the same for the dials .

I sent the worst one to a dial re-finisher in the US; nothing to loose really, since it was badly scratched. It was a trial run; if it turned out well, I'd send the other 6 or 7 dials. I checked with the company first, sent hi-res photos etc, explained I wanted a faithful reproduction of fonts etc and was told "no problem".

The following photos are their photos; they take a "before" and an "after". I don't have the dial back yet but from what I can see, I'm very disappointed and have emailed them :taz:.

It's the "electronic" that really pisses me off; that style is one that Hamilton used on their electronic watches from the 1970s (see last photo)...it shouldn't be on a 1960s Elgin. The "Lord Elgin" isn't much better.

Sad to say, I've never had much success with dial re-finishing  .

Before:










After:


----------



## jasonm

Its not even close :thumbsdown:


----------



## mel

I'd agree with J, even the LORD ELGIN font is way wrong - although if you'd never seen a "real" original I suppose you would be happy with the restoration. Was it some where in "India"-na, Paul?

I suppose it could be used and labelled as a "Refinished" dial if you were moving it on, as long as any buyer was aware it was that! :yes:


----------



## Silver Hawk

I've been working on my Elgins on-and-off for the past 4 weeks and have now restored as many as I can from these parts. I've ended up with 3 x Cal. 910 in steel cases, 1 x Cal. 725 in steel case and 1 x Cal. 725 in gold case. All working perfectly and keeping pretty good time :thumbsup:. I've also restored another 3 x Cal. 725 for someone else (







) in June, so a total of 8 of these very rare movements.

I'm left with three other 910s in steel cases but with a mixture of broken balance staffs, missing / bent contact wires, or missing crowns. Might be able to get at least one of these up-and-running if parts turn up, otherwise useful for spares.

A few photos. Note that I used the best of the dials I had, and all show some levels of radium burns on the dial where the hands have been left in the same position for decades. I'd rather have these original dials than the re-finished one shown above cry2.














































[more]


----------



## Silver Hawk




----------



## jasonm

Seriously good work there Paul, I think the backsides are just as attractive as the fronts! :good:


----------



## Larry from Calgary

Silver Hawk said:


> I've also restored another 3 x Cal. 725 for someone else (
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) in June, so a total of 8 of these very rare movements.


I arrived home last night and my parcel from England was waiting for me.

Here they are:










I am very happy that these are all up and running again.

...... and here is a shot of my 1st acquisition with an original Elgin strap










Thanks again Paul!

:thumbsup:


----------



## Silver Hawk

I've now pulled all this unique and valuable information (scans, text, photos) together and, with permission from "John_R" and "Hamiltonelectric", built a new Elgin section on my web site.

Hope you like it!


----------



## mel

Excellent work Paul! :notworthy:

I especially like the photo of the Gold Elgin 105 on the new pages - that looks superb!

Visit the new Elgin section on Paul's web site - it's well worth it guys!


----------



## Larry from Calgary

Silver Hawk said:


> I've now pulled all this unique and valuable information (scans, text, photos) together and, with permission from "John_R" and "Hamiltonelectric", built a new Elgin section on my web site.
> 
> Hope you like it!


Looks good Paul.


----------



## Larry from Calgary

Hey Paul,

How close are the Elgin coils compared to the LIP coils? Are you able to measure the resistance of an Elgin 725 and/or a 910 movement coil versus a LIP 148 movement coil?

Might be an interesting find. h34r:

Larry


----------



## John_R

Larry from Calgary said:


> Hey Paul,
> 
> How close are the Elgin coils compared to the LIP coils? Are you able to measure the resistance of an Elgin 725 and/or a 910 movement coil versus a LIP 148 movement coil?
> 
> Might be an interesting find. h34r:
> 
> Larry


Larry

I noticed your question regarding coil resistance and needed a distraction from something I'm supposed to be doing. The 722 coils proved to be impossible to measure. The contacts are little blobs of conductive something and trying to measure the resistance was impossible. So one coil committed suicide rather than allow me to measure its resistance. Then the mystery coil this is the coil that looks like 725 but does not have a diode. It's resistance is 710 ohms. The 725 is 677 to 720 ohms I only checked a couple of them and they do seem to vary a little. Then my one and only 910 besides having mutilated contact wires has an open coil.

This would be the end of the measuring resistance except going through all the miscellaneous stuff I noticed a Ziploc bag with a stainless steel case labeled 725 and the movement was not in the case and it's missing the balance wheel and balance bridge. I would've tossed it back into the box but I noticed the coil insulation wire was pink. When I was measuring the resistance of the 725 its insulated wire is white and 910 is pink. So Paul's not the only one with a mystery watched labeled 725 but really is a 910. When I get a chance I'll study it more carefully and post a photograph. In the meantime the coil resistance of a 910 is 753 ohms.

Then I thought I would add something to Paul's wonderful section on Elgin watches on his website. The photograph comes from the 1962 stockholders annual report publication.

John


----------



## Larry from Calgary

"This would be the end of the measuring resistance except going through all the miscellaneous stuff I noticed a Ziploc bag with a stainless steel case labeled 725 and the movement was not in the case and it's missing the balance wheel and balance bridge. I would've tossed it back into the box but I noticed the coil insulation wire was pink. When I was measuring the resistance of the 725 its insulated wire is white and 910 is pink. So Paul's not the only one with a mystery watched labeled 725 but really is a 910. When I get a chance I'll study it more carefully and post a photograph. In the meantime the coil resistance of a 910 is 753 ohms. "

Thanks for the info John.

Now I'm really curious about the LIP 148 coil! Would it have a resistance similar to the 910? All we need is someone who might have some LIP coils stored away to measure a couple. Any volunteers out there?

Another mystery Elgin......the Centura! It's case reminds me of the later 105. Any idea of the movement it would've house or would it have carried?

(sent via my wife's iPad so please excuse the format)

Larry


----------



## Silver Hawk

John_R said:


> In the meantime the coil resistance of a 910 is 753 ohms.


That seems really low....I'm off to check mine; I have a table of all coil resistances but I've not yet added the Elgin calibres.


----------



## Silver Hawk

Silver Hawk said:


> John_R said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the meantime the coil resistance of a 910 is 753 ohms.
> 
> 
> 
> That seems really low....I'm off to check mine; I have a table of all coil resistances but I've not yet added the Elgin calibres.
Click to expand...

You correct John :notworthy: ...the two 910 coils I measured are 743 and 760 ohms. The three LIP R148 coils in the photo below are 1.28K Ohms; the 910 coil is on the right.


----------



## SharkBike

I have no idea what y'all are talking about, but it certainly is more interesting than Seiko 5s, G Shocks, and Sub homages. h34r:

:rltb:


----------



## Anthony A

SharkBike said:


> I have no idea what y'all are talking about, but it certainly is more interesting than Seiko 5s, G Shocks, and Sub homages. h34r:
> 
> :rltb:


Thats a good point Rich!!! If I had a spare 100.......... :smartass:


----------



## Larry from Calgary

SharkBike said:


> I have no idea what y'all are talking about, but it certainly is more interesting than Seiko 5s, G Shocks, and Sub homages. h34r:
> 
> :rltb:


It's all quite simple. :smartass: If you take a steel rod and wrap a wire around it you create a coil, and if you then connect the two wire ends to the (+) and (-) connections of a battery you'll create a magnet. What Paul was saying above.....if you assume that the wire used on the Elgin and LIP are the same diameter that means that there are almost twice as many wire loops (windings) on the LIP coil as there are on the Elgin coil (1.28K Ohms on the LIP versus 743 ohms on the Elgin). What this means is that the magnet of the LIP was probably twice as strong (twice as many windings). It also means that the Elgin may have been designed for a lower battery amperage (current). It may also mean that the Elgin might have worked just fine without the diode, but that's just a wild ass guess on my part :assassin:

:thumbsup:


----------



## azimuth_pl

the resistance on the 5 LIP coils I have vary from 1, 1.1, 1.2 to 1.3kOhm and they work.

is 1.3 (1.28) the most correct factory value to keep the best balance aplitude?


----------



## mel

The astonishing thing to remember is that these are miniscule coils - in the big photograph, those coils look to be fine for Medium Wave reception in a cheap transistor radio - but they would have been around the size and shape of your little finger to the first or second joint for that job :yes:

Paul is talking about parts that are (at a guess) maybe 3mm dia and 8mm long  That is serious miniaturisation for the time frame these watches were produced in, long before the printed circuit version of coils came along. Even a coil winder machine of the period would have been designed specifically for this one job, and jigged up to produce what you see on the pictures. I'd also take a guess that the tolerances would be such that it wouldn't matter too much if the coil was not exactly 1K2, most parts for that time would be +/- 10% for most general purposes. Such a tolerance range would easily accommodate values from 1 thru to 1K3 with a design value of around 1K15 :yes:

2c worth from an electronics viewpoint rather than horological


----------



## azimuth_pl

has any one been lucky with this purchase - a 16 page ultra rare:

Elgin 725 Electronic Service Bulletin - eBay # 120610195735

I emailed the seller a while back but no joy 

service bulletins were printed for watchmakers so as the copyright was 1961 it somehow proves that the watch was ready for a market launch by that time. most sources say 1962 or even 1963.


----------



## Larry from Calgary

azimuth_pl said:


> has any one been lucky with this purchase - a 16 page ultra rare:
> 
> Elgin 725 Electronic Service Bulletin - eBay # 120610195735
> 
> I emailed the seller a while back but no joy
> 
> service bulletins were printed for watchmakers so as the copyright was 1961 it somehow proves that the watch was ready for a market launch by that time. most sources say 1962 or even 1963.


I was lucky enough to win an Elgin Electronic manual that was listed by the same seller earlier :smartass:


----------



## azimuth_pl

good for ya 

can you post some scans on the forum? perhaps we'll find some interesting bits.


----------



## Larry from Calgary

azimuth_pl said:


> good for ya
> 
> can you post some scans on the forum? perhaps we'll find some interesting bits.


Sorry, but I won't do that. Too many boneheads out there that would print it out and sell the copies on evil bay as originals


----------



## Larry from Calgary

Wow! A double post


----------



## azimuth_pl

I would agree with your reasoning if that would be an Omega or other servicing manual for a common but collectible watch.

however making unobtainable manuals available even for small money (to cover eBay fees) is not a bad thing as it helps prevent such watches from being improperly serviced.

I also doubt that anyone would be interested in making money on a thin bulletin for a watch that hardly anybody owns.

I'll keep on watching eBay listings and when I find one I'll post it on my website as a free download for enthusiasts.

preserving lost knowledge should be the main goal of collecting.


----------



## martinus_scriblerus

Larry from Calgary said:


> azimuth_pl said:
> 
> 
> 
> good for ya
> 
> can you post some scans on the forum? perhaps we'll find some interesting bits.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but I won't do that. *Too many boneheads out there that would print it out and sell the copies on evil bay as originals*
> 
> *
> *
Click to expand...

Larry: I've got to agree with Azimuth's comments about this one - really no market for the knowledge, and so what if some "bonehead" tries to make $0.05 on selling "stolen" information. Paul has freely dispensed bulletins on his site, I 've shared my Zodiac electronic brochure, and it would not prejudice you in any manner (and may very well help someone here) to share likewise.

This is not a criticism, Larry, just a comment, and I surely hope you take it in that spirit.


----------



## Silver Hawk

martinus_scriblerus said:


> Paul has freely dispensed bulletins on his site


I don't do it anymore Dave.


----------



## martinus_scriblerus

Silver Hawk said:


> martinus_scriblerus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Paul has freely dispensed bulletins on his site
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't do it anymore Dave*.
Click to expand...

Must be a reason?


----------



## John_R

Larry your fears of someone reproducing the manual was done years ago. If you look at the photograph you will see three different manuals. The top two were printed by the Elgin watch company copyrighted 1961. The top manual was the two battery version and the middle one the one battery version. Next to each manual is the insert showing the overall watch with some color. The bottom manual is a reproduction that was sold at nawcc regionals sometime in the past. You'll notice the reproduction the color of the cover is different. Then it has one rather amusing mistake the person wasn't paying attention as the manual is for two batteries but the insert is for one.

Then as far as being concerned over this being the only source of information regarding repair. Henry Fried has the entire manual in his book â€œThe Electric Watch Repair Manualâ€ unfortunately I think it's only in the first edition. Then at the time he reviewed the watch the manual is also republished in several trade magazines at the time.

John


----------



## watchnutz

John, I assume you are the person that co-authored the Lord Elgin article in the Dec 1994 NAWCC Bulletin. I have to say that article sparked my interest in the watch and caused my long search to finally acquire one. I have saved that issue and keep it in my library for that one article.


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> Larry your fears of someone reproducing the manual was done years ago.
> 
> John


John,

Glad to see you posting again.


----------



## Larry from Calgary

martinus_scriblerus said:


> Silver Hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> martinus_scriblerus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Paul has freely dispensed bulletins on his site
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't do it anymore Dave*.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Must be a reason?
Click to expand...

There is. :blind:


----------



## azimuth_pl

thanks for an interesting discussion.

I'll keep on searching and let this be my personal challenge even if a bonehead makes 5 cents of profit afterwards.


----------



## Silver Hawk

Larry from Calgary said:


> John_R said:
> 
> 
> 
> Larry your fears of someone reproducing the manual was done years ago.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> Glad to see you posting again.
Click to expand...

+1 :thumbsup:

John, I owe you a long over due email...


----------



## Larry from Calgary

azimuth_pl said:


> thanks for an interesting discussion.
> 
> I'll keep on searching and let this be my personal challenge even if a bonehead makes 5 cents of profit afterwards.


Let me know how that works out for ya :beach:


----------



## Silver Hawk

Silver Hawk said:


> Well the restoration / servicing of the movements is going pretty well, but I cannot say the same for the dials .
> 
> I sent the worst one to a dial re-finisher in the US; nothing to loose really, since it was badly scratched. It was a trial run; if it turned out well, I'd send the other 6 or 7 dials. I checked with the company first, sent hi-res photos etc, explained I wanted a faithful reproduction of fonts etc and was told "no problem".
> 
> The following photos are their photos; they take a "before" and an "after". I don't have the dial back yet but from what I can see, I'm very disappointed and have emailed them :taz:.
> 
> It's the "electronic" that really pisses me off; that style is one that Hamilton used on their electronic watches from the 1970s (see last photo)...it shouldn't be on a 1960s Elgin. The "Lord Elgin" isn't much better.
> 
> Sad to say, I've never had much success with dial re-finishing  .
> 
> Before:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After:


I got my refinished Elgin dial back from the US last week. This is after politely informing them that the "electronic" font was totally wrong. Second time around they have got right and things look a lot better; shame they couldn't have put the new lume dots in the original place:

Refinished on the left, original on the right:



















I'm more pleased with the other dial I had done at the same time. Hamilton-Ricoh...watch this space!


----------



## John_R

watchnutz said:


> John, I assume you are the person that co-authored the Lord Elgin article in the Dec 1994 NAWCC Bulletin. I have to say that article sparked my interest in the watch and caused my long search to finally acquire one. I have saved that issue and keep it in my library for that one article.


I'm not a big fan of the word assume or assuming as people who do that usually get it wrong but in your case your assumption is correct. I always wondered if anyone ever read the article other than the sellers on eBay who liked to quote from it.

John


----------



## John_R

Before:










After:










The dials looking better but it looks like they lost the spiral finish on the metal?

John


----------



## watchnutz

John_R said:


> watchnutz said:
> 
> 
> 
> John, I assume you are the person that co-authored the Lord Elgin article in the Dec 1994 NAWCC Bulletin. I have to say that article sparked my interest in the watch and caused my long search to finally acquire one. I have saved that issue and keep it in my library for that one article.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a big fan of the word assume or assuming as people who do that usually get it wrong but in your case your assumption is correct. I always wondered if anyone ever read the article other than the sellers on eBay who liked to quote from it.
> 
> John
Click to expand...

 John wasn't really much of an assumption seeing John-R from Seattle having a huge knowledge base and collection of Lord Elgin electronics. :to_become_senile:


----------



## Larry from Calgary

Silver Hawk said:


> I got my refinished Elgin dial back from the US last week. This is after politely informing them that the "electronic" font was totally wrong. Second time around they have got right and things look a lot better; shame they couldn't have put the new lume dots in the original place:
> 
> Refinished on the left, original on the right:


It's definitely an improvement over their first attempt Paul

:good:


----------



## John_R

I'm curious as to whether anyone in the group wants to admit to being the lucky purchaser of this eBay item?

eBay 280581649156


----------



## Larry from Calgary

John_R said:


> I'm curious as to whether anyone in the group wants to admit to being the lucky purchaser of this eBay item?
> 
> eBay 280581649156


To be honest I looked at it and had even negotiated a "buy it now price", but had also made a shot-in-the-dark offer on another item (that much to my surprise) I won. :tongue2:

More on that one later. :naughty:

:smoke:


----------



## Silver Hawk

John_R said:


> I'm curious as to whether anyone in the group wants to admit to being the lucky purchaser of this eBay item?


Not me John...although it was in my Watch list.



Larry from Calgary said:


> More on that one later. :naughty:


Spill the beans Larry :smoke:.

I also received a very nice watch this week from Sweden...so more on that later naughty and I think I've almost bought another watch that I'm very partial too; this one from Belgium. Neither were on eBay and neither are Hamiltons or Elgins. h34r:


----------



## diveboy

Sorry to revive this thread, I've just been soaking up all the information contained in here.

I've recently increased my collection of Lord Elgin Electronics and have also read Paul's detailed website about them.

I also have a few of the W-1 batteries (they came in the some of the watches).

Let me know if you want any details.

Thanks

Michael.


----------



## Silver Hawk

diveboy said:


> Sorry to revive this thread, I've just been soaking up all the information contained in here.
> 
> I've recently increased my collection of Lord Elgin Electronics and have also read Paul's detailed website about them.
> 
> I also have a few of the W-1 batteries (they came in the some of the watches).
> 
> Let me know if you want any details.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Michael.


Hello Michael,

Welcome to the Forum...especially as you have impeccable taste in collecting early electric watches! :yes:

Post some photos!


----------



## diveboy

Thanks,

where to start, guess with my first one.










out and about










here's my collection of NOS 725's










and here's a W-1 battery in the flesh










I have a few others but yet to take shots of them.


----------



## PDXWatchCollector

Are you the one that bought the lot of NOS 725s with tags on e-bay here about a month or so ago? I think the seller indicated that they were found in a box on the top shelf of a closet somewhere? ..


----------



## diveboy

no, amazingly this was a second lot of Nos that appeared with in a few weeks. the first lot had 5 725s and a 910.

These are very very clean apart from a little corrosion from having the batteries left in. they have not been out their bags.


----------



## Silver Hawk

Great to see this 2010 resurrected...but a lot has changed in 4 years, including the location of my images, so I've got through the topic and updated all my image URLs to make the images show again :yes: .

I'm amazed that these 725s keep turning up; I'm pretty sure John R mentioned that the test run of 725 were all recalled and destroyed. Only two months ago (June 2014), I was offered this small batch of white dialled 725s --- I didn't buy them:




























Michael, I'm wondering if these white dialled ones came from the same guy selling your black dialled one?


----------



## diveboy

Paul,

No different sellers, more to the story but not right now.

I have to clean up my ones as they have a little corrosion on the battery contact where the original batteries were for 50 odd years. Any tips? Was going to use methylated spirits initially and see how that went.

I'll have to reread the thread, thanks for updating the image links.

I have found some ads indicating they were on sale between 1961 to 1963.

Guess we are all still learning about these watches.

Let me know if you want the ads posted.


----------



## PDXWatchCollector

I WILL eventually own one of these watches ... unfortunately, they always show up after I've blown my current watch budget on something else! :wallbash:


----------



## Silver Hawk

diveboy said:


> Let me know if you want the ads posted.


Yes please!


----------



## Silver Hawk

PDXWatchCollector said:


> I WILL eventually own one of these watches ... unfortunately, they always show up after I've blown my current watch budget on something else! :wallbash:


Van, if you bought less troublesome watches, you would have had several Elgin 725s by now. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## PDXWatchCollector

Silver Hawk said:


> Van, if you bought less troublesome watches, you would have had several Elgin 725s by now. :lol: :lol: :lol:


You realize, Paul, that I always think it's going to be a walk in the park to get the watches I send your way up and running ... until it isn't!! :tongue2:


----------



## Silver Hawk

PDXWatchCollector said:


> Silver Hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Van, if you bought less troublesome watches, you would have had several Elgin 725s by now. :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> You realize, Paul, that I always think it's going to be a walk in the park to get the watches I send your way up and running ... until it isn't!! :tongue2:
Click to expand...

Well....the good news is that the Enicar case is open. :clap:


----------



## diveboy

Guys, I haven't forgotten about posting, just been very busy.

I have a gold 725 now, compared to the stainless steels, it's tiny.


----------



## Silver Hawk

diveboy said:


> I have a gold 725 now, compared to the stainless steels, it's tiny.


They are....29.3mm diameter:


----------



## diveboy

Paul,

can you confirm the band width for me please ?

Thanks

Michael.


----------



## Silver Hawk

Lug gap is 16mm


----------



## PDXWatchCollector

Silver Hawk said:


> PDXWatchCollector said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Silver Hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Van, if you bought less troublesome watches, you would have had several Elgin 725s by now. :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> You realize, Paul, that I always think it's going to be a walk in the park to get the watches I send your way up and running ... until it isn't!! :tongue2:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well....the good news is that the Enicar case is open. :clap:
Click to expand...

Sweet! Your watch skills continue to impress ... seriously!


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## Silver Hawk

diveboy said:


> Paul, No different sellers, more to the story but not right now.


Diveboy, would still like to hear the story, and see the ads.....please.


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## Coelho

Good afternoon everyone! I am new to this forum, and from now on I asked for help in the sense of and please, whoever has the Elgin 725 service manual. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.


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## Coelho

I take the opportunity to know if in the future need the part, I do not know the name, that has the wire that establishes the electrical contact, in the Elgin 725, is it possible for someone to have the part for sale? Thank you.


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