# Help identify this please?



## Chris1985 (Jun 18, 2016)

Hey guys, I'm new on this forum so excuse me if I inadvertently break any rules. I have a vintage 2 faced pocket watch with no brand name on it. It has a 14k stamp near the crown. The words and numbers on one of the facets are in Fars (Irani), and one of the smaller dials is missing. That's about all I could gather from a surface examination. Has anything of this sort come across you guys before? Any idea which company made it? Any suggestions on my next course of action? Any information about this item will be helpful thanks.


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## dobra (Aug 20, 2009)

Welcome to the Forum Chris. Is it possible to show a couple of shots of the movement?

mike


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

What a fascinating timepiece. I would date it to the middle or later nineteenth century and I believe that it will have been a Swiss import into Persia/Iran. If you can open the watch up to reveal the movement then a better idea of its maker might become apparent. It appears that the missing dial on your watch was a moonphase or simpler night/day indicator, and I don't feel that the watch is 14 carat gold, judging by the appearance of the case. I am most intrigued by the various complications featured on this watch, with the obverse side appearing to be a "regulator" timepiece, while the reverse seems to have two additional time zone registers and a seconds register.

You might like to have a look at a web address as follows: iranonline.org/articles/clocks-pers. This gives a fascinating overview of the history of clocks and watches in Iran and is taken from Encyclopedia Iranica. Please let us know if you find out any more about this watch and fill us in on what all the dials were used for.


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## davidcxn (Nov 4, 2010)

Hi there,

as a two sided / dialled pocket watch it may not be easy to access the movement.

I think the various sub dials are as follows.

The first dial has two sub dials for the time working independently of each other ie two train, along with a sub dial for the seconds.

The second dial has an outer chapter for the date, a sub dial on the left for the day with another sub dial on the right for the month. The missing sub dial at the bottom would have been for the moonphase.

I've seen watches similar to this described as being for the Turkish or Ottaman market. Watches with the functionality and design of your first picture are sometimes called Captain's watches. Here is a link to one example. http://www.antique-watch.com/product-15-w9713.html

I'm afraid that is the limit of my knowledge. It is certainly rare being two sided so hope someone else may be able to give more help about this type of watch.

It's a fantastic looking and special watch. :yes:


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## Chris1985 (Jun 18, 2016)

Thanks for the information! Unfortunately I have 0 experience with opening watches so I cannot open it to reveal the movement. Considering it may be over a hundred years old, I don't think dissecting it with my inexperienced hands is a good idea. II'll wait for further replies and keep you updated.


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## Chris1985 (Jun 18, 2016)

Also, I can't see any room for a dial on the day/night phase. In the next photo that I post, you will notice the day night phase actually has a golden sun under the white enamel (I assume there is a golden moon on the other side). I think the entire white circle is the dial itself and it turns to show either the day or night face. On the right side, I can read the word "ishbat" which is Arabic for February, but the rest of the words are not in any language I can understand. The left phase (the one with numerous words in a circular pattern) is the one missing the dial. The words are not in Arabic and are completely incomprehensible to me. Note the small dial is has a crescent at its base, a crescent being the religious symbol for Islam (the equivalent of the crucifix in Christianity).

The side with Roman numerals is fully functional.


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## Chris1985 (Jun 18, 2016)

The 14k stamp cannot be seen with my camera lens, I had to use a jewelers loupe (10x) to see it myself. On the opposite side of the 14 k stamp, there is another stamp of something that looks like an animal (a duck, swan or mammal I cannot tell).


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

This thread does interest me and I would echo David's comment that this watch is almost certainly a European export piece - almost certainly Swiss - made for the Middle Eastern market. I know that the Chinese were particularly fascinated by European watches and clocks which featured complications, and I would think that the Persian and Ottoman markets were similar, given that Europe was the centre of elaborate clockwork mechanisms right up to the later 19th century by which time this watch had already been made and exported.

I agree that it would be unwise to try and open the watch up unless you are sufficiently adept at examining and repairing watches. Looking at the close-up of the moonphase register, I can now see the faint picture of the sun or moon, indicating that this small dial was indeed a day/night or moonphase indicator. Interestingly, Chris, this form of indication dial has remained in fashion ever since, and in the case of your watch, the dark portion bearing the sun/moon rotates beneath the white enamel revealing the current "phase" in the window part of the register. Apologies if you know all this already, but I am just trying to be helpful.

I now realise, thanks to David (davidcxn) that the reverse dial shows the date on the outer ring - hence the single hand) , and your translation of the month February confirms this. I do love this watch and just wish that we knew more about its maker. As a final note, the gold mark is also interesting. Judging by your description, I would judge that the animal hallmark is the town or city mark for the case, probably in Europe, while the 14K denoted the standard of the gold. In your latest pictures, the case does gleam in a gold-like way, and I would advise an unobtrusive test if you need to make sure of the metal.

I do thank you for showing this piece and I hope that you eventually unravel all its secrets. :thumbsup:


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## bridgeman (Dec 9, 2008)

Might worth spending more time with the loupe on the hallmark.

opinion on here suggests Swiss made,if you can see 14k and an animal worth looking again at the animal ,then at the register of Swiss hallmarks which is available via Google. Some of the hallmarks of 1800s onwards are shown as duck,bear etc, just remember to differentiate between the gold and silver hallmarks.

Good hunting!


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## Chris1985 (Jun 18, 2016)

Thanks guys, you have all been exceptionally helpful! To Always"Watching", I thought the white enamel would turn, but the mechanism behind it turning makes much more sense, thank you for clarifying. Also, can you please specify the iranonline website? The link you sent is dead, and googling it doesn't help. To Bridgeman, as helpful as always; it appears the animal hallmark from google is a squirrel, which is a guarantee of the 14 k stamp. To David, thank you for explaining to me the Captains watch, the side with Roman numerals is most certainly what you have linked. I will continue my research and wait for further responses here. I will also update you on my findings.
Much appreciated, thank you.


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

This is without a doubt a Swiss watch made for a certain market/customer/order in the Middle East. They've been doing this since forever it's just that these watches are quite rare (but not necessarily valuable or expensive).

For middle east, often time these watches were made for members of royal families or were ordered by members of the royal families as gifts for certain people (generals, people that did important things for said royalty or country, etc.).

The hallmarks/stamps you speak of should give signs about the watchmaker but it's also quite possible that inside, on the movement, more stamps would be found.

Also, to me it looks like it'd be from 1900-1910... It's pretty similar in design, colors, materials to the Hebdomas Ancre 8 Jours watches built in that same period, roughly. Though it could be a decade or two older since it's not marked at all...


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

I agree with you there gimli, and the date of this watch is certainly either a bit pre- or just post-1900. I put it a bit earlier than gimli but dating this timepiece exactly is not easy. I would be surprised if the hallmark bears any direct relationship to the maker of the watch movement, and it would be fascinating to have a look inside, at the movement, to see if it bears any known watchmaker's name.

The link to the encyclopedia article about clocks in Iran has, quite literally, disappeared. I can get up Iranonline, but a thorough search of that site has not led to the link or article I described to you. I am really annoyed at this because I didn't make a printout of that fascinating article. I do apologize to you, Chris, but the disappearance of this web address is out of my control.


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