# Guns



## Griff

Garry and me were interested in guns.

Any more news on Brococks?

The understanding I have, is that there will be some kind of licence for these.

It may be just a form of registering these with the local police station, so they will know where they all are.

Any news Garry?

Anyone shoot a 12 bore?


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## Garry

Not heard anything yet, but I'm sure we will - nothing in the latest Gun Mart at all.

I used to clay shoot, but preferred semi auto's - used to use a Beretta 1200F fixed 1/2 choke. Before that I had a Winchester auto, but was terrible for jamming all the time, it was gas operated. The Beretta was direct blow back using a locking rotary bolt - it fed anything at all.

G.


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## JAC

I believe it hasn't got any further than the last update on 9th January - re: tandem air systems, like Brococks. Even then I believe the plan is to ban the further sales of said system and either insist current owner obtain a license or 'hand them in' - no idea on whether a cash reimburement will be offered!









But why take the risk, there are plenty of fantastic Co2 guns out there. I own a Walther CP99 and 88 - they're both pretty accurate. I'm fortunate enough to have a 9 metre length garage and so I'm only 1m short of a short pistol range.

I used to have an FAC - which was taken away grumble, grumble - and owned a .40 Sigma (polymere gun, like a glock) and a .357 Magnum 6", adjustable front and rear sights, but mainly shot .38 with it as it was cheaper and gave a better (easier) grouping.









Never shot a shot gun in my life! But have shot some 303 and 762 at Bisley camp.

Enjoy. But be safe, never point at anyone even if you think it's not loaded!


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## Garry

I like Co2 quite a lot - I have quite a few of them.

The Anics Skif 3000 is interesting and quite powerfull.

Jac,

I have a Sigma airsoft gas blowback - excellent quality made by western arms, was bloody expensive though - Â£270, it has polymer frame and metal slide.

G.


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## Andy

Do you remember before I was telling you about my Walther LP53 airpistol.

Well I have it at home now and am having quite a lot of fun shooting it I must admit. My house is quite long, (it's a bungalow) and I have just under 11 meters in my loft which is all floor boarded and lit.

At the moment I'm just shooting at whatever I can find to utilise as targets. Good Fun.


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## Garry

Keep it up Andy.

If you like it, maybe try a Co2 at some point. 8 shots without re-loading.

G.


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## Andy

I have been doing some research and found that the LP53 was used as a training pistol for .22 shooting because of it's similar recoil.

It does jump around in your hand a bit.


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## Garry

I believe they were used as a trainer. .22 has little recoil and the LP53 simulated the amount quite well.

So, you're enjoying it then Andy. Any more thoughts on a Co2, they are a lot more fun!

Walther make an excellent magnetic target / pellet catcher. When four targets have been knocked down, you shoot the centre one to make it auto reset. It's all steel and very very safe to use. It's about Â£40.

G.


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## Andy

I'll learn to shoot with this first I think. When I stop peppering the roof joists with it I may consider getting something else. It is fun. Good job the Wife doesn't venture into the loft though.


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## Garry

She'll think you've got large woodworm.....









G.


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## Garry

This topic has not been touched for a while........still no further updates on the Brococks.

Griff, have you ever tried airsoft guns?, they are very interesting kit and good fun.

Andy, are you still shooting the LP53?

G.


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## ericp

Whats a CP88 ?


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## Roy

An android from Star Wars ?


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## ericp

Excellent...

Lets have a Star Wars thread







)


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## Griff

Eric,

A CP88 is a Walther CO2 air pistol, modelled on a real Walther hand gun. I had one, but swoped it for a mint Webley Premier.

Not heard any more about Brococks yet.........I don't think the stupid buggers know quite how to licence them. It's not a straight forward thing to do. The stupid gits wont accept there is already enough legislation in place if only they would enforce it; but it's this business of bringing about a smoke screen illusion of dealing with real illegal guns, which they are lamentably failing to do.

This amnesty lark is a complete utter red herring, as most of these guns could be surrendered at any time as they are not infact firearms at all.

The screwballs who've got illegal handguns aren't going to hand in dick are they, but when they show a big pile of ***** airguns, blank firers, and non active replicas and antiques, it creates an illusion of making a dent in illegal firearms. It's nothing of the bloody kind, and I don't think the public are fooled by it one f'king iota.

Garry,

Yes, I'm aware of some of the better quality soft air guns, like Western Arms etc., as sold by such as Wolf Armouries. Some of the pistols cost Â£200 plus.

I've got a Hop Up Glock for using on cats in the garden, but only to stop them killing the birds I love to see in my garden, which is 110 feet long.

It doesn't harm the cats except sting 'em with a plastic ball, but it does save the life of a bird quite often.

Why cant people with cats put a f'king bell on them so the birds can hear it and get away. I found a whole sparrows wing on my lawn some weeks ago, so it was yet another cat tearing a bird to bits.

Sorry about that, but I'm in the RSPB, and have a very big soft spot for our feathered friends. My cockateil is 19 years old, and very happy in his cage, so I wont be told that's cruel, just in case anyone wants to have a go at me about that. He wouldn't survive now out of his cage, other than the walk across the carpet, and climb to the top of his cage.

Ever had a precharge pneumatic Garry. Had a Daystate Huntsman, which was deadly accurate even at 70 yards. I reckon I could shoot a nats dick off at 25 yards, if you catch my drift!!


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## Garry

Griff,

Never tried a precharge - at present I have an Air Arms TX200 HC with simmonds scope.

I used to have a Glock hop up single shot. Now I have a Western Arms "Wilson Tactical Combat" gas blow back ( Ltd edtn, very rare ) and a WA S&W Sigma gas blowback. You are right they cost over Â£200 each, but are the dogs.

Agree with your comments on the hand in and licensing - when will they ever learn??????????.

G.


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## Griff

Garry,

That's a good air rifle. I like the Pro Sport as well. Believe Lou Ferrigno has one, who used to be the Incredible Hulk. He's a big air rifle fan. Field Target I think. Have a feeling I may be repeating myself on this old thread!?

I used to have a Â£300 Bausch & Lomb scope on my Daystate. Think it was 4 x 32 x 42, and the vernier adjustments were incredible. With the extension tube shield on the end of the scope, it was almost as long as the bloody barrel.

When I was a teenager, I had a cracking Mark 1 Airsporter, with the loading tap. It was very powerful for its time, and my mate and I really put the shits up the other kids with their piss poor weak stuff. Nowadays of course, most decent rifles are well up to the 12 ft lb limit.

I recently sold my only remaining rifle, my Air Arms TX200SR, in .22

It was very heavy, a Mark 1, and doing 13.2 ft lbs in Superdomes. It was very accurate, and would have been an excellent hunting rifle, except I don't kill animals.

All my gun money has gone into my shotgun, but I've kept a good number of pistols. The HW45 is damn good. Still got the Orion 3, and an excellent San Marco air cartridge 5.5" Peacemaker. The Skiff is very good, as we've both said before.

Got a mint Webley Premier, and Junior.......both superb. Given them both new springs, piston washers, and breach seals. They're great just to look at.


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## Garry

Griff,

The Pro Sport is a real nice rifle and I may buy one soon!

Funny you had a Tx200SR - I always fancied one of those - were they really nearly recoil free as the ads suggested?.

I also have one of the electric assault airsoft rifles, the SIG 551 Swat, brilliant things, fires 12 shots per second in full auto, can do single shot and has an adjustable burst fire, which you can set from 3 - 8 shots per single pull of the trigger. Airsoft is great for messing around in the house, not loud enough to disturb the nieghbours, but will go right through a fag packet ( my fave target ) in your living room. The assault rifles will fire about 1800 rounds on one charge!. They have good range as well, about 100m.

G.


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## Sargon

I have a couple of guns - mostly assault rifles I use for target practice. Do the UK laws prohibit actual rifles and hand guns? Or are air guns just more popular? I don't know anything about air guns. Do they shoot BB's? What kind of range can you get with them accurately?


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## Griff

Sargon,

You can buy a firearm classed rifle, but only with a fairly hard to get Firearms Certificate, but not an assault type rifle, which are banned here. All firearm classed handguns are now totally banned, which many of us think has achieved dick. A shotgun can only be bought again, on a fairly hard to get Shotgun Certificate, but pump action are banned, and anything over 3 cartridge magazine capacity have to go on a Firearms Certificate.

Airguns are very popular over here, and the British makers Air Arms, Daystate, and Webley, are of the best top quality world wide. BSA are, I think, now owned or made by Gammo, which makes me feel a bit pissed.

Our airguns are power limited at 12ft lbs for rifles, and 6 ft lbs for pistols.

Rifles over 12 ft lbs can be bought, but only on a Firearms Certificate.

Our gun laws are amongst the toughest in the world, and Labour Governments over here seem to hate ANY kind of gun at all, unless its for use in Iraq.

Jack Straw, the recent Home Secretary, is apparently on the record as saying he can't understand why anyone would want to own an air rifle, and of course nearly all these relatively new labour women politicians seem incapable of understanding anything about guns at all, and anti anything to do with shooting sports. I hate that kind of politician.

Our airguns though are just about the best these days, particularly Air Arms and the superb precharge rifles made by the likes of Daystate and Ripley.

I've always loved airguns from being a kid, but every time someone is injured by a screwball with an airgun, there's always a cry for banning all airguns again, but which would only penalise responsible owners and shooters.

I'm a keen Clay Pigeon Shooter, but they're even attacking shotgun ownership now, by wanting to gradually ban lead shot, and gradually ban shotguns on a creeping basis, with the likes of new labour women at the back of it. Utter shower of stinking toe rags....the bloody lot of 'em.

The ###### will be banning matches and cricket bats next!!









If you detect a hint of bitterness in my comments on this issue, you'd be damn right!!!

I had to give up my 1911 Colt 45 auto ACP because of the stinking hand gun ban, and I didn't bloody well like it. I could shoot pimples off a nats **** with that gun. It was utter cream!!!


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## Guest

Hello Griff

Your mentioning the Webley pistols took me back to my youth when I saved up and bought a Webley Senior which was the top gun then, with the barrel that broke over the top. They still make the same looking pistol now but I think its called a Typhoon or something.

I've still got an old BSA Supersport .22 under the stairs, I didn't know they had been bought out by Gamo from Spain. Gamo made decent cheap guns but not the quality of BSA.

My middle son has always been mad on shooting since he was about 7, I bought him a Baikal russian rifle, not full power and ideal for a young lad. Then I bought him a Gamo Deltamatic which was a repeater with a tube along the top which you could fill with about 25 slugs. Good garden gun. He used to think himself quite the countryman what with the rifle and the ferrets! He's got a Webley .22 Vulcan carbine at the moment.

BTW I have the answer for the cat problem, its called Bull Terrier









If she got hold of one they really would be cats meat!

Lucky they are quick over the fence!

Cheers,

Neil.


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## Griff

A Bull Terrier with a soft air gun would be formidable.

If he misses with the gun he can just rip the cats **** off


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## chrisb

Ha! Your Bull Terriers are committing suicide against our brave Iraqi cats, we will surround them and ...........


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## Garry

Griff,

A short reply, but how I agree with your comments relating to firearms / airguns & the Government.......a total bunch of absolute pillocks, incapable of getting thier facts right, knee **** reactions with no thought and more often than not, implemented purely as a vote winning action!.

I am not un patriotic, but given half the chance and the funds I would leave the UK and move to the States, where it seems that freedom still counts for something these days.

G.


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## Sargon

There's always talk over here of restricting guns. There are so many though that a ban would be impossible I think. Basically I think all you need are VERY strict penalties for using a firearm to commit a crime. Many assault wepons have been banned here, but there were so many before the ban that all wepons produced before the ban are grandfathered in. Firearms are in a way a part of our cultural heritage, and as such are tolerated. But I wouldn't be adverse to an automatic life sentance for criminal use.


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## Griff

If I could get a similar job in Texas I'd go tonight. I'd fill a form in to get a 1911 Colt ACP, or, I might, just, make do with a GoldCup modern equivalent.

The way it's going over here it wont be long before the politically correct pricks ban all toy guns for kids. I'm sure airguns will be banned as time goes on.


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## Garry

What can I say!

I totally agree with both Sargon & Griff. Guns are not the problem, it's people. Many countries have liberal gun laws, but little gun crime from those who are not criminals. My wife is from Slovakia, where a gun permit is very easy to obtain, yet the vast majority don't bother with them, just enthusiasts like us. The killings etc, are by the criminal element, who take no notice of the laws anyway.

There are very few bank robberies in Slovakia - every bank when you walk in, has an armed guard with a sub machine gun in the foyer - why can't our banks do this?, it's certainly not because they don't have the money is it!. Comes back to the same old thing - the Government won't let them. Sod the public and lets assist and protect the criminals!!.

G.


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## Guest

I'm a bit off firearms at the moment as a very nice bloke I met through a watch forum in the US was recently shot in the head with a .38 calibre at close range.

Thank God he is getting better after brain surgery, one bullet creased his skull, another hit it point blank and unbelievably didn't blow his head apart.

This was simply the result of a family row, I'm sure if firearms were freely available in this country there would be all sorts of shoot ups in road rage incidents etc.

I think in the US gun control has got out of hand. You have incidents of children shooting each other at school.

I was there a few years back when the Columbus high school massacre happened when some boys went out to kill their classmates and teachers.

Although our gun laws are draconian and criminals can get guns easily at least it keeps guns away from people like Michael Ryan and that mad Scottish bloke (I can't recall his name) who shot up that nursery school.

Both gun license holders.

There is the old chestnut about guns not being the problem its the PEOPLE, the thing is you need PEOPLE to fire guns. And as everybody knows there are some VERY funny people about.

Cheers,

Neil.


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## Andy

I can sympathise with firearms enthusiasts up to a point. I mean I am in favour of an all out ban on ALL firearms but the group who so actively lobbied for the abolition of firearms, (I think it was the "snowdrop" campaign), only went for the easy targets. Fire arms certificate holders. Easy peasy and with the full support of the police. If they had had real commitment in there beliefs they would then have gone on to tackle the illegal trade in guns but they did not. That would have been to much like hard work so once they had banned legal gun ownership they waved there banners, claimed victory and went home. In fact they failed and were a total discrace to the memory of all those killed in peacetime, firearms related incidents.

They had the momentum going to make a real change to peoples attitude to illegal guns as well which could have saved countless lives but they only campaigned for an easily attainable goal. The legitimate gun owner. Don't get me wrong I am in favour of this but a golden opportunity was missed that could have made the UK a gun free nation.


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## Garry

Neil,

I agree to a point, but you are wrong about Hungerford and Dunblane.......neither of those people should have had a licence under the already existing very tight laws. They had the licences because existing laws were not implemented. This was never really made public however!.

I agree with Andy to a point as well, being a shooter I was not in favour of the ban, but the problem always has, and will always be the illegal ownership by criminals, which is still not being addressed as it could be.

Legitimate shooters were never the problem, the laws were tight indeed, personal carry of the weapon for example was never allowed. The only time you could have your gun with you, was travelling to and back from your shooting club and then it had to be in a locked case.

As Andy said, we were an easy target and lets not forget that labour used it as a vote winner in the what was, forthcoming election.

Gun crime has increased by over 40% since the ban and is still rising!.

G.


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## Guest

The point I was trying to make is that in the US hundreds of people get killed NOT by career criminals but by friends, acquaintances and memebers of their own family.

When a row brews up and there's a gun to hand, instead of hitting someone its very easy to shoot them.

This whole thing was bought home to me by the previous incident I referred to

I don't want to go into specifics but it was the blokes mother who shot him!

Its quite a regular occurence that a disgruntled employee will take a gun to work and blast up his co-workers.

This is what happens when there are lax gun laws.

I believe the gun laws were adequate in this country and I didn't go along with the new laws put into place I was simply trying to illustrate what happens in a country that allows carrying guns as a personal right.

Back here in the UK I honestly don't see how guns can be kept away from criminals.

Its often the same guns that commit various crimes as firearms are hired out by underworld quartermasters.

Cheers,

Neil.


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## Garry

Yep, can't disagree really and thinking about it, I also can't see how access to guns by criminals will ever be prevented.

Trouble is, much of todays youth are now seeing the carrying of a gun almost as a fashion accessory.

Do you think our police should now be armed?.

G.


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## Guest

Yes Garry

I unfortunately do think the time has come to fully arm the police.

Of course there are many officers who are already armed anyway.

I have always thought that female police officers should be armed.

I was at Denmark hill some time back when a police car arrived , sirens going to an emergency call out and two WPC's got out.

I thought if there are any hardcase crooks involved in this shout what could they do?

If they were armed that would tip the balance in favour of the police.

I don't actually know any other country where the police are not routinely armed do you?

Cheers,

Neil.


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## Mrcrowley

Seen those stun guns some Counties' police are trial testing? About time to. If you can't shoot the scum bags, put 100,000 volts up their bums


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## Griff

Viscious, viscious.......you'd never get me doing a thing like that!!!!


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## Garry

Bit late on this, but been busy ya know!.

Yes, I think the Police should be armed - never thought I would say that, but the way things are going, it needs to be. If a criminal is brandishing a gun, what can a copper do to protect either himself or the immediate public with a baton? - nothing!. I do feel however, that they must undergo very strict training with regular appraisals to ensure they are fit to carry and use the weapon. They should not be issued lightly.

G.


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## Mrcrowley

Are air pistols definitely still legal then?

Paul


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## Griff

Yes they are.

The power limit on air pistols is 6' pounds.

On air rifles it is 12' pounds.

Air rifles over 12' pounds can be bought on a firearms certificate.

Air cartridge type revolvers are being looked at regards some sort of licensing, as they look like real handguns, and some say they can be converted in a skilled workshop to a real gun. Brococks are a case in point.

The point is, that guns such as air pistols are being scapegoated in a smoke screen illusion of doing something about the real problems of firearm crime, and illegal guns in general.

Those most hysterically against guns tend to be those who actually don't know or understand anything about guns at all, and haven't taken any trouble to get clued up before making silly statements such as, "all guns should be banned".


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## Mrcrowley

Agreed. Asked just to put my wife's mind at rest, though I was certain they were legal. She was not chuffed as it was when I came home with one(Crossman CO2). I used to have good afternoons in the back garden. My shooting trap, consisting of cardboard box stuffed with hay. Still can't remember where I got that hay - not like I have a horse. Sadly it don't get any use since I got my dog. He's a trained assistance dog, & his instructor wouldn't shake me by the hand if he scoffed a few pellets









Paul


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## Andy

Griff said:


> Those most hysterically against guns tend to be those who actually don't know or understand anything about guns at all, and haven't taken any trouble to get clued up before making silly statements such as, "all guns should be banned".


Sorry Griff but I have to take issue with you there.

You don't have to know a thing about guns to know that, in the case of handguns, they are instruments devised for the purpose of taking human life.

People are entitled to question, and indeed oppose the need for people, other than the military and police, to own handguns, which by the way, (as I'm sure you are aware) are officially classed as "weapons of war".

I have taken the trouble to get clued up and have had hands on experience on the subject.

I believe all live round weapons held illegally AND legaaly should be taken out of circulation.

I'm not spoiling for a fight.

It's just my opinion. Sorry.


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## miked

I agree with Andy , the posession of firearms should be banned ,police/armed forces personnel excepted where necessary . I will not bore you with a history lesson of where I live but despite political 'developments' in recent years and still come of the toughest sentencing legislation in the UK , firearm murders are still a frequent occurence . Guns are a way of life and as the Sat/Sum mornig news in NI testify a most regular way of settling arguments , why fight someone bigger than you when you and your mates can wait then go beat his door down and shoot him in the legs/ankles and arms . Tougher and then tougher sentencing again is the only way . The US mafia was routed when the Feds started handing out 100 yr sentences. I will start another argument ... bring back the death penalty for pre-meditated murder.


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## Griff

Is that so!? So what you are saying is that shooting sports should be banned!? Clay pigeon shooting should be banned should it!? Maybe all shooting sports should be banned as well then!? We won Olympic medals at shooting.........we'll scrap that as well should we!? Well I know what I am talking about when it comes to guns.......I've shot just about every kind of firearm there is, including military, but I don't shoot animals, but presumably you'd ban game shooting as well then? How much have you actually thought about stopping legal and responsible shooters from enjoying their sport?

I've won 6 trophies for clay pigeon shooting, which I am proud of, and it makes me sick to hear all those bleeding hearts who would like to see all shotguns banned. Every time someone is injured by a shithead letting off an airgun, the same old whinging whiners want to ban all air guns instead of tackling the screwballs responsible. Well we shooters are sick of all those who would like to scapegoat all of us who are safe, legal, and responsible, as a quick and easy fix of making it appear that the real problem has been tackled, which it hasn't!!

No, you can stuff the idea of banning all firearms, because all firearms would mean shotguns, rifles, and certain pistols still legal such as black powder.

Lets ban all cars because of the number of people killed by them shall we? Why not, it's no more daft than what you are saying!


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## Roy

Sorry griff but cars are made for driving, guns are weapons , like it or not.


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## Griff

Guns are great aren't they if they are going to be used in the war on Iraq.

Don't you get it!!? It's not the implement that is made that is the problem, it's who's in control of it. I'm not being told that all firearms should be banned. Not by ANYONE.

A shithead in a car can run into a bus stop and kill women and children.

Guns are designed for sport as well as attack and defence.

Sporting guns are designed for sporting activities.

Knives are designed for cutting.

The shitheads are the problem, not the guns. The banning of legally held guns has achieved dick all. The real problem of illegal guns and crime is what needs to be addressed, not the banning of legal and responsible shooting sports.

What do you want banned? Be specific, and let's see some sensible argument instead of a lot of emotional comments.


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## namaste

Great that it's possible to have a discussion on such a hot topic without anyone using monosyllabic bird names. Anyone seen bowling for Columbine (me not bt I was wondering...). And what about banning posession, but not shooting at shooting range/clubs? When I was young I used to go twice a month on my bike (Peugeot, shimanos, great at the time) with a machine gun over my shoulder to a club where us youth would learn to shoot with equipment that would tempt any modern day terrorist (the country is Switzerland and this practice still goes on, as far as I know. Youth from 16 years onwards, and any male citizen under 40 has a machine gun at home).

I only know of one incident with firearms in Switzerland in recent years (8-15 deaths, but most killed by grenades).

It's much more to do with cultural things. Although personally I can't see a reason for anyone posessing a firearm, some people like the sport (and it is a sport), and why shouldn'tthey be allowed to go to a rifle range on Sundays? But why on earth should anyone be allowed to carry a gun, have one at home or in the car? (I understand the Swiss, they are still terrified by the possibility of a nuclear hollocaust or Russian invasion).

It's nice to have a debate without anyone going "US biker" (Sunday evening mellowness, I'm not for stereotypes).

Pieter


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## 036

Genuine question: are most gun related deaths / injuries in the UK due to legally held or illegally held weapons?

My view is that the past has shown that controls over sporting guns / privately held weapons has no effect on the real problem which is that criminals can easily get hold of an illegal weapons.

The only justification for increasing the restrictions on sporting guns would be if in fact legally held weapons are a problem as in the question above.


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## DavidH

On a similar theme

Am I the only one that keeps a some equipment under the bed in case of un invited visitors?

Recently an armed gang burst into a neighbours house, give him a beating and took his car keys and car. Then robbed a petrol station.

I have opinions but I am afraid I don't have the answers to these problems.

I would love to try target shooting but all the legal stuff sounds more complicated than a TAX return

David


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## Roy

Ok so where do the dickheads get the guns from in the first place ?

They steal them from gun shooting clubs and shooters homes don't they ?

I would'nt mind shooting a bazooka so maybe they should be made legal and sold at the local newsagents.


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## Griff

No, that's NOT where they get the guns!

They get the guns from stuff coming in from abroad such as Russia, America, etc. etc. The point about privately held guns is that the criminals don't know where they are, or who has them, and thus is the argument for not holding guns in clubs, which they are generally not, because if they were, the criminals WOULD know where to break into to get guns. Yeah!!!?


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## Roy

So a criminal cannot sit outside a gun club and follow people home then ?


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## Griff

Illegal guns aren't obtained from that scenario except maybe in an extreme and isolated case. That's just not the source of illegally obtained guns, but I can see that you're not going to be on the side of shooters are you!?


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## Roy

I'm not on anybody side, I just have no knowledge of them. That is why I am asking questions.


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## 036

Roy: although the gun club scenario could occur I think the current glut of illegal weapons stems largely from the fact that there have been a lot of recent coflicts in Central/Eastern Europe and the weapons used are coming onto the illegal market.

I think the qustion I posed is an important one - will getting rid of sporting guns actuallly make a difference overall?

Criminals can get guns as easily as going to the off licence. Psychopaths will think of some other way to kill people if they can't get a gun (...ooo er bit debatable that last bit but here goes!!!)


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## Griff

Getting "rid" of sporting guns will have absolutely no effect whatsoever in reducing gun crime and the influx of illegal weapons.


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## 036

I agree with your last, Griff.

So I am against a blanket ban on sporting guns. But I do feel as someone mentioned earlier maybe yourself that a tightening up of curent enforcements is needed.

As an avid newsreader there have been quite a few cases over the last few years where there has been a crime resulting from inappropriate liicence issuing.


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## Griff

The point is, there are already more than enough laws on guns in this country, more than most, and we don't need ANY more if these laws are fully acted on. There are also more than enough punishments and measures in place if they just act on them, and sort out the shitheads. It's not the responsible shooters that are the problem, and a stupid and unnecessary further curbing of our shooting sports is not going to achieve dick!!


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## Andy

I do not believe there will ever be a ban on shotguns. I'm guessing thats what is being referred to with the term "sporting guns"

There would be far to much of a backlash from the aristocracy of this country should that even be mooted and I must admit thats a ridiculous thing.

They may perhaps tighten up, to the point of a strangle hold, the criteria for obtaining a shotgun certificate but I reckon thats about the sum of it.

I would have been in favour of a ban on private ownership of firearms even if we had not had Hungerford / Dunblain and the escalating problem of gun crime.

Forgive me but I think the average person would be horrified at the thought of a neighbour possibly having an aray of powerful semi automatic weapons in his attic. It's not just the crime aspect that bothers some people. It's the principle of the whole issue of civilians with guns.


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## Griff

Semi automatic weapons are now outlawed here anyway, but it's not just shotguns that are sporting guns. Rimfire and centre fire rifles are used in sporting events, and target shooting.

Hunting, which is something I don't do, is also dependent on centre fire rifle in particular, and in Switzerland almost every household has a rifle, and gun crime there is almost unheard of.

The responsible shooters have been scapegoated here. The handgun ban was totally unnecessary, and has achieved nothing. There are more illegal handguns coming in every day; more than ever.

Sorry, but those with a tendancy for hysterical shouts for a ban don't know what they are talking about. The facts don't bear out the people who want a ban, and their arguments just don't cut any ice when examined.


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## miked

I cant comment about England but in NI despite guns being shipped in illegally ,from wherever , and being freely available in the 'right ' circles , criminals will stop at nothing to get more . Households are reguarly burgled and the very few gun clubs that exist are targetted . My father owned two shotguns for 25yrs until he moved to Belfast , although he didnt need them the police renewed his licence but he sold them in fear of his house being burgled or worse . We have a 'peace' of sorts here but the large amount of murders and shooting incidents are carried out using 'untracable' shotguns and 'punishment' shootings in the main are performed with .22 pistols/adapted rifles . Not .38/9mm and above pistols/rifles/sub machineguns . I have nothing against legal gunholders . My father was a responsible owner for 25yrs , my 14yr old shoots at school as part of their CCF supervised by TA/RIR . However my personal opinion is that guns are made to kill and should only be available to military/law enforcement .


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## Griff

Northern Ireland has obviously special problems, but I can only stress and repeat that banning shooting sports and guns made and designed for this specific purpose is both unnecessary, and pointless. The problems as outlined should be tackled in their specific categories, but not at the expense of making the legal, responsible, and law biding suffer in the process. If this country ever became a nation that had banned all competitive shooting sports, and had no contestants in these areas in future Olympic games, then it would be a very sad place to live.

The notion of if it's not understood, or liked, then it should be banned, is not acceptable in a democratic, and free society.


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## Griff

How fast are you lot on the drawer!? I'm down to 2/10's of a second!!!


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## Andy

A replica of a Colt single action revolver popularly seen on Western films.

I'm guessing if your into quick draw then it will be a blank firer.

I often wonered what legal loophole was being exploited that allowed the use of forward (through the barrel) discharging blank firing weapons of this type.


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## Griff

Very perceptive Andy. Easy to recognise Colt 45 4.5" Peacemaker replica blank firing pistol, made by Trinity Guns, of England.

It's for Western fast drawer re-enactment. It doesn't require a firearms certificate, but I'm a bit reluctant to start a debate about replicas and blank firers in particular, unless someone is really keen to do so.

It's all steel, and an exact replica, and it wasn't cheap. I mostly have it mounted on the wall.


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## Roy

Griff sell the gun and buy some wallpaper,


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## Mrcrowley

oooh, bitchy. Handbags at 40 paces?

Paul


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## Roy

Sorry I could not resist, no offence Griff.


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## Griff

Yer feeky chucker

You'd need your brown corduroy trousers in a shoot out with me!!


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## Roy

I need em' on now just looking at your pictures.


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## Garry

As Griff, I'm a shooter and as previously mentioned, gun crime has increased by over 40% since the handgun ban. The responsible legal shooters were and never will be the problem. We were simply an easy target, a vote winner and a smoke screen to make the public think that the government were taking the problem seriously. There still seems to be little attempt to tackle the smuggling of guns into the country, or get to the real root of the problem......THE CRIMINALS.

G.


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## Andy

Arm the Police.

Fight fire with fire.

Do you remeber a short while ago a filmed armed police standoff.

An armed officer and an armed criminal were pointing there guns at each other till the villain surrendered. That officer was complimented on his restraint.

I'm totally against violence but I'm sorry. That officer should have pulled the trigger and put that guy down.

He put his own life and the lives of innocent bystanders at risk by not firing.

I hope in private he was repremanded over it.


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## Garry

100% agree Andy.

G.


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## Mrcrowley

I am no way as knowledgeable as Griff & Garry, so my point may not be logical in a quick decision scenario. However:

This guy took a big risk with a standoff. So, bearing in mind he would have to think & move quickly, could he not have just shot him in the leg or whatever? That way they get their man, no lives are lost.


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## Griff

Often yes Paul, but this case was an armed man actually pointing a gun at the officer, and in that scenario I'd have shot him through the head.

The criminal could have fired in a split second, and you're dead meat.

If the officer could definitely detect the gun wasn't a real firearm, then the restraint was a good thing.


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## Griff

Some guns for Garry:-


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## Mrcrowley

Griff

What are the name/makes of 4,6 & last one?

I wanted to go shove my pistol up the nose of a shithead kid outside a short while ago. My wife wouldn't let me









Cheers


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## Griff

Paul,

In order:-

Remington 7.5" blank firing replica by Trinity guns, of England

Webley Junior

Webler Premier

Anics Skiff A3000

German HW45

Brocock Orion 3.5" 0.22

San Marco 5.5" Peacemaker air cartridge 0.22

Gamo PT80 air gun


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## Mrcrowley

Griff

The Brocock looks good, & the Anics. Are they the real thing?

Here's a question, you being one of best people to ask. Have you ever seen, or have a pic of a Glock? They sound unbelieveable, & scary thinking of them in wrong hands. Is it true they're made of porcelain?

Cheers


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## Griff

The guns I've shown are all air guns, but I did used to have real firearms before the handgun ban here, on a firearms certificate.

A normal Glock is made from steel and polymers.










A porcelain gun is a special, to evade X-ray detection, and is not a normal Glock

Griff.


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## Foggy

Hi Paul & Griff

Here's a bit from a glock website that I've cut and pasted here.

Where can I get a porcelain or ceramic Glock, you know, the Glock 7?



> There is no such thing as a porcelain or ceramic Glock. All Glocks are made from polymer and steel and always have been. This rumor got started (or maybe fueled) by a line from Bruce Willis in the movie 'Die Hard 2: Die Harder':
> 
> "That punk pulled a Glock 7 on me! You know what that is? It's a porcelain gun made in Germany. It doesn't show up on your airport X-ray machines, and it cost more than you make here in a month."
> 
> This is, of course, complete hogwash. Don't believe everything you see in the movies.


Cheers

Foggy


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## Mrcrowley

Fair enough. In my defence though, I had heard of this b4 that film came out. I always thought it a bit strange. 'I surrender. I dropped my gun. Can I have a sweeping brush to clear it up.'


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## Garry

One of mine for Griff.........










G.


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## Griff

Can't quite make out the name. Is it a Western Arms soft air?


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## Garry

Well done Griff,

Nice to see someone who know's thier stuff. It's a very very rare western arms wilson tactical combat .45, based on the colt mk1v series 80.

Cost me Â£250 six years ago.....superb gun.

G.


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## Garry

More for Griff............


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## Garry

Another........


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## Mrcrowley

Hey Griff & Garry

Hopefully by what i've said so far i try to talk sense on this subject, though my knowledge is limited. That is why i hope you xperts don't regard me as silly. Here goes.

For some reason, i have always longed for a sub machine gun. Before anyone bites back, i have my defence. Don't care if it shoots plastic pellets, paint ball, even potatoes. Just the thought of being able to let rip at a wall to ease stress, without causing harm or damage. Do you see where i'm coming from?


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## Garry

Yes Paul,

I have one, I'll try to post an image.

It can fire 12 rounds per second ( 6mm plastic bb ). It is powered by a re-chargeable battery, full weight & size. Will fire an amazing 1500 rounds on one charge. Can also fire single and 3 shot burst. It's a licenced copy of the Sig 551 Swat.

G.


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## Garry

Paul,

My photo host is not working at the moment, web site not responding type bull****.......will try to post a pic tomorrow.

Mine is for sale if interested, it's rare for one thing and second is A1 as new. ( I'm after a different model )

G.


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## Garry

Actually Paul,

I'm sure in the past I heard you mention somthing about an AK47 - these are available in this format for about Â£250 + battery and charger.

G.


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## Mrcrowley

Garry

From what i know i couldn't manage an AK47. Just when i wanted Roy to do my avatar. My lass won't like it anyway But if i can tell her it shoots plastic







like a kid's gun, i MAY get away with it.


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## Garry

They do, so hopefully, you will.............

G.


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## Garry

For Paul........


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## Garry

For Paul........


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## Mrcrowley

Looks a bit big 4 me Garry. Thought it was a sub machine, ie size of Uzi etc


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## Garry

For Griff..........


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## Garry

A good one to go for then, would be the very latest H&K. I'll post a pic for you tomorrow - they are very manageable.

G.

Ps; Electric Uzi's are also available.


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## Mrcrowley

Anyone want to buy my Crossman? Or do you know someone who might?

Cheers


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## Andy

This is one of the publicity shots taken for the James Bond film "From Russia with love".

The pistol is in fact an air pistol.

It's a Walther LP53 single shot, break barrel cal. .177.

The story, (or myth), goes that for the photo shoot the Walther rep did not turn up with the PPK that Bond is famous for using.

A member of the photo team who lived nearby had the air pistol and ran home to get it and ultimately it was used for several of the shots.

The most famous of which was the full length poster of Sean Connery standing with the pistol across his chest.

I have a mint one of these in it's it original box.

Just to show I'm not a complete spoil sport


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## Griff

I've seen a couple of LP53's for just under Â£200.

The gun isn't that powerful, so it would have been more suitable for Roger Moore, and Sean should have had a Desert Eagle 0.50 calibre.

Patrick McGoohan would have been the best Bond but turned it down.

He would have used his fists, as he knew how to use 'em.

The LP53 will probably increase in value as the Webleys like I have, which are mint. If you put a bit of oil in the latter to get 'em to diesel they are crackingly good guns.

Paul,

Is your Crossman the single shot pump up?


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## Mrcrowley

It's an 8 shot, semi auto is it? Takes a ring of 8 pellets in the top.

I've decided it's to serious for why I want it. Been looking at electric bb machine pistols. Can't understand why though one is Â£200+ and one (looking the same) is Â£40


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## Andy

Griff

I always thought Edward Woodward would have made a great Bond.

He probably wasn't the Woman magnet that Connery and Moore were but he would have bought that stiff upper lip, quintissential British character to the role and made the film character closer to the book.


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## Griff

Yeah.......both Callan and Danger Man were the ultimate.

Edward Woodward was too short to play Bond, but he was fantastic as Callan. Superb!


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## Griff

Garry,

Had a Specialist, but traded it in for the Orion 3, as I thought its construction was a bit better put together.

Didn't like the barrel shroud or top rib over the cylinder on the former. The casting on the underside of this rib wasn't of even thickness, like it wasn't finished off right.

The Orion 3 though is good!


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## Garry

Griff,

Maybe you had a one off, mines perfect - love it!

Paul,

There are many versions / makes of airsoft. Price diff is because some are very light and plasticky, almost toy like, where others are very heavy, intricate and superbly made with very realistic actions, such as the Wilson combat and S&W Sigma that I posted.

G.


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## Mrcrowley

Thought as much. Now I have a dilemma. Go for a light one & risk buying crap, or spend more on a meaty version, & risk not been able to hold it. What's the lightest(you as well Griff) you know of that's decent quality?


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## Garry

.....Probably the H & K MP5A3, has retractable stock as well. Buy a gun mart, there are always good nick second hand ones in there. This gun would suit you well Paul.

G.


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## Mrcrowley

Cheers Gary. May get a copy if I go out with my mate tomorrow. I can hide it in his bag tilli get home. It's like being 14 with the 'special interest' mags again


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## Garry

Got one yet Paul.......??

G.


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## Mrcrowley

No! Five bloody newsagents, & no joy. I have to give credit to my mate. Being a taboo subject, he spent some time rooting on the top shelf in case they were hidden. What a joke

Looking at Tokyo Marui MP5K A4 though. What you think?

http://www.airsoftdynamics.com/Images/aegs.../large_mp5k.jpg


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## Garry

Good gun - just choose what appeals to you. There is also a shortened version of the AK47 with retractable stock, called the Spetsnaz - brilliant gun & would suit you.

I have the same trouble getting a gun mart, but WH Smith always have them.

When I have time, I'll dig out a couple and post them to you.

G.


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## Mrcrowley

Weight 1500g. That's only thing bothering me. My Crossman is 250-300, but feels easy. Bet I can manage a change, but that much?


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## Andy

Should airweapons now be banned as well?

Well they are dangerous and one could easily sustain a life threatening injury from one, esspecially if hit in the head from a full power hunting rifle.

It's quite fashionable now for manufacturers to replicate real handguns in the form of repeating CO2 gas guns which could easily pass for the real thing, and in the hands of the opportunist criminal has endless possibilities.

Some air weapons can quite easily be converted into live round guns at very little cost.

Yes I know it's the same old argument, complete with knee **** reactions but surely you shooting enthusiasts can see why there is growing concern amongst the non shooting public can't you.

Do you not think the industry as a whole should be doing more to preserve it's future in this country by policing itself more strictly. Perhaps making guns such as Brockocks air cartridge revolver impossible to convert, by using materials that are unable to withstand the pressures generated by a live round. Just a thought.

Maybe there could be a higher age limit on the attainability of airguns generally and more clubs so that people can use them safely in a controlled environment and away from the general public.

I ask this because I'm annoyed at the total apathy displayed to me by a sales asst in a local gunshop today.

I simply asked if there was anywhere local that I could go to join others, with my Walther LP53 to do some target practice for a bit of fun.

I got a shrug of the shoulders and a "not round here mate"









This shops very existence depends on the continuation of the sport of airgun shooting and I would have thought it in there best interest to encourage folk like me, perhaps by having a directory of clubs, (assuming there are any in S.E. London). I would of thought that the creation and promotion of organised clubs would be the key to preserving this sport.

Sorry guys but it's small wonder that the gun laws were passed through so easily. Judging from the "don't give a *****" attitude that I encountered from a premier dealership you were all probably caught napping.


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## Glennn

Hi Andy,They banned live round weapons and there seems to be more on the streets than ever.Why stop responsable air gunners from enjoying their sport.

Magpies probably would be in favour of a ban as i just bagged me one about 45 minutes ago.

Took his eye out at 45yrds with my airarms.177 spring of course; non of this poncie pre charged rubbish even my 10 yr old can shoot with one of them.

I dont want to join a club either!!!


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## Guest

Glennn

I think you just backed up Andy's argument.

People like you who go around shooting wildlife ought to be banned.

And before you come out with a load of old culling nonsense, you know as well as me that you get your vicarious thrills from killing things.

Unfortunately this is how most shooters are seen.

I know Griff has already put his point of view about killing with guns and must be applauded and I don't really have any problem with shooting grouse, pheasant etc as long as they are all eaten.

But killing defenceless creatures for a kick is beyond me!

Neil.


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## Griff

Glennn,

Just be aware that there are people like me who love guns, and are fair old hands at using them. I'm also in the RSPB, and whether magpie or not, I've just been sickened by your post boasting the taking out of a magpies eye.

Just be aware you need to be very careful where you shoot a bird, whether its a protected species or not. I happen to like members of the crow family, so please see if you can refrain from boasting about animal kills here!!


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## Andy

My point about clubs is that (and this is more applicable to young people) is that surely if there were more places to go and shoot there would be less liklihood of people getting bored and just going out to shoot anything that moves.

I have to say that I am enjoying practicing with my air pistol in my attic.

Shooting wildlife for a kick is despicacble. Shame on you Glenn.


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## Glennn

Don't jump to conclusions you don't know me,i am as keen to preserve wildlife as much if not more than the next man.

Magpies destroy other birds nests,i've seen it with my own eyes and kill the young,the decline in species such as thrush, blackbird and hedge sparrow can be attributed to the explosion in magpie populations +[squirels]

We now see a lot more of the tit family filling the gap made by the decline in other species, this is because they nest in holes in trees and boxes put up by the likes of myself.[magpies and squirels can't get to them]

So before you demonise me into some gun toting murderer,

magpies are classed as vermin, along with rats,foxes and squirels[try having a nest in your loft,after they have stripped all your wiring bare]

Just one final question if your house was plagued with rats would you go out and buy a magic flute or a rat trap.


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## Glennn

By the way Griff if you're in the RSPB you'le know that they do not oppose legal,site specific control of magpies,as long as this control does not threaten the conservation of the species.


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## Griff

You can save your "by the way" stuff with me chum!

You're a boaster of killing an animal. You told it as if you were proud to take its eye out, and wrote it up to us as if you enjoyed it.

Be aware mister, that I am not amused or impressed, and I'm the wrong person to patronise with any crap.

I think your action was despicable, because of your making it a boast, and something to be proud of. Also be aware that it has told many of us quite a bit about you, and I for one am not pleased that yet another ******** with an airgun is spoiling the repution of responsible shooters.


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## Glennn

If i'd known that my attempt at humour, would cause so much upset in hindsight i perhaps should have kept it too myself, as for patronising with crap, the "crap" happens to be the facts.

I do NOT get pleasure from killing magpies.

The comment was a poor attempt at sick humour, it seems on this forum that you can only post things that are approved by certain people, HAVE YOU NEVER TOLD A SICK JOKE??? at the expence of human misery.

Should i take your post as a personal threat, if so that tells many of us quite a bit about you.

Got to go; to a forum where everyone hasn't had a sense of humour transplant.

GOOD RIDANCE







, there that saves you posting it.


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## Garry

........Trouble is Glenn, in all fairness, the comments DO come accross as serious and not a joke.

In defense though, Magpies are indeed generally classed as a pest and often shot because they destroy the nests and young of songbirds. I don't think that the shooting of magpies in a humane fashion can be classed as irresponsible.

The main " sport " that disgusts me, is fox hunting, which I think is inhumane and is done for total pleasure and little else. It should be banned with immediate effect.

G.


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## Andy

There's this guy I work with sometimes. He's a generally very unpleasent nasty little man.

He has some very extreme views on matters of race and religion etc. that he voices without consideration for anyone.

He's very clever though.

If someone he has upset does complain he just turns the tables by claiming it was "just a joke" and "it's the persons fault for not having a sense of humour"

The mans an a**e hole.

I'm not saying you are Glennn but this business of backpeddling by claiming you were joking is a cop out mate. At least have the courage of your convictions and argue your corner.

For the most part, (though not always), differences such as these can be worked through and lessons learned.

I can see you have a psarchastic sense of humour which is fine once we all get used to it but I don't believe you were joking about the magpie any more than I believe you were joking about writing off 2 CBR's.

Regarding the former.

A simple apology for causing offence would have been all that was needed.


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## Garry

Paul,

Any joy with your airsoft rifle yet??

G.


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## Mrcrowley

Garry

if you are asking me, no.My cash at the mo is reserved for a watch.Soon though....


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## Garry

I was asking you. Will keep my eyes open for a bargain for you.

G.


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## Garry

Paul,

..........Forgot, if you're still having trouble finding a Gun Mart, E- Mail me your address and I'll post you a couple.

G.


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