# Richard Winch Grandfather Clock.



## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

This clock has been in our family for at least 85 years, when my Grandfather aquired it. (My father remembered it as a young child.) As far as I know, the calender ring has never worked. Th clock chimes alright, but sometimes when it strikes twelve, it keeps on going! I also know that at some stage in its life, the three finials have been removed from the top (the holes are still there) and that the case has been shortened...possibly to fit the clock into a room with a low ceiling, or maybe because it had rotted slightly due to standing on an earth floor. On removing the face for cleaning, I have found several sets of initials and dates scratched into the back the earliest of which is 1732, followed by Dec. 13 1838, 1845 and the latest, 1904. It would appear that at some stage, someone has attempted to do some rather crude (DIY) repairs. The clock still works perfectly OK, although the movement is filthy. I don't think the lead weights are original...they have saw marks in them, where someone has tried to adjust the weight, but they are hanging on what looks like 'catgut'. Just thought I'd put this up, seeing as the forum has been renamed, to see what you guys thoughts were. Here are some pics.


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## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

Nice clock - I like silvered brass dials. Not sure about that first repair date, though - 1732 seems a bit early for a one-piece dial. Could it be 1782?

That movement is in desperate need of a service. The striking problem could be a bent rack tail or rack stop pin, wear on the gathering pallet or the arbor hole, or just the DIY rack spring being too powerful.

What's the thing hanging off the end of the lifting piece post (top right of the movement)?

The date ring actuator pin probably need a bit of tweaking. These can be a real pain to set up.

Most 8-day clocks have cast iron weights.

It's definitely worth getting it sorted. I'd charge around Â£200, including local delivery and set-up.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

That's nice! Love the dial! If it falls to you to preserve and have it serviced, it's a task worth doing for your family! :yes:


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks for the info guys...will take some more pics of the movement tomorrow....bit late tonight!


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

As promised, some more pics of the movement...Thanks for your thoughts, Clockworks, these are really just for you to see the state of the movement and (probably) make you smile....or shake your head in despair! Unfortunately I think we're too far apart to be able to sort this one out....I'll have to find someone more local, but thanks for the 'ballpark' figure for repairs.

My dad used to tinker with this clock a lot before he passed on, and as he was a telephone engineer, there seems to be a lot of solder and electrical bits used in his 'repairs'.

The movement from the front.










A spring apparently made out of an electrical crimp and part of a safety pin. The extention on that lever has also been wired and soldered on.










The 'thing' hanging off the lifting piece post appears to be half a crocodile clip bent to (rightly or wrongly) engage with the calender ring in a vain attempt to make it work. It certainly lines up with the ring.










The calender ring on the reverse of the face.


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## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

Believe me, I've seen worse (but not much!). It's definitely in need of a service.

What's the condition of the centre rear pivot - where the minute wheel arbor comes through the rear plate? This part suffers the most wear, as it's continually running, and is under a lot of load, especially if heavier weights have been added to keep the clock running.

I've seen a few longcase clocks where the pivot (which should be around 1.5 to 1.8mm diameter) has worn down to about 0.5mm. I've even seen one where it has worn completely though. The broken stub was jammed in the hole. The part that was still on the arbor had worn to a point. Fitting a new pivot isn't a major problem, but will add a few ponds to the bill.

I guess that the crocodile clip is there as a stabiliser for the date ring. The reason that the ring doesn't turn is that the actuating pin has broken off the intermediate wheel (bottom wheel on the front plate). You can see the broken stub, riveted into the wheel. I guess the pin got damaged at the same time as the tooth broke on the ring, and the replacement pin failed afterwards.

A new rack tail and spring should sort out the striking problem, although the gathering pallet arbor probably needs bushing as well.

I'd be happy to take on a repair like this, and Â£200 plus a few cheap parts would sort it. Obviously I live too far away, but you should be able to find someone to take the work on for a similar price. Check the Yellow Pages. Try and find someone who works from home. Lower overheads should mean lower prices. A lot of these guys do trade work, and the trade pays really badly!

Finally, don't be tempted to oil the clock - you'll just flush the gunge deeper into the bearing surfaces, making it wear out faster. It's been running dry for a while - look at the rust staining where the escape arbor comes through the plate for the seconds hand to fit on.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks for the info and advice, Clockworks...If I've got time tomorrow, I'll undo the screws holding the movement in place and have a look at the rear pivot and take some pics. Now this might seem like a stupid question and I'm sure you'll shoot me down in flames (and feel free to do so!), but I do clean and service my watches, and this movement is huge by comparison, so if I were to take it apart for cleaning, which oil would I use, assuming nothing needs replacing. I'm aware that those levers and spring need addressing at the front.


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## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

It's perfectly possible to teach yourself clock repairing, it just takes a while to learn. I taught myself from books, starting about 15 years ago. I'm still learning! Clocks still turn up with problems that I haven't seen before - the internet has made finding help a lot easier.

I get most of my consumables and tools from either Cousins, or Meadows & Passmore. Clock oil is a lot cheaper than quality watch oil, and you really only need 2 different grades. One for small pivots (1 to 4mm) and a heavier grade for larger pivots and click work (winding ratchets). Windles oil works fine, and is cheap. For really small pivots, I use Moebius 8001 watch oil.

For cleaning, I use Horolene in an ultrasonic tank. I know a guy who used to put parts in a stainless saucepan with Horolene, and gently heat it on his electric hob.

After cleaning, a quick scrub with a toothbrush in hot soapy water, then a rinse in distilled water, finishes it off.

Pivot holes need to be "pegged out" to make sure that they are perfectly clean.

If the pivots and holes are perfect, and none of the other parts are worn or broken, you can put it all back together.

However, this is extremely rare. You'll always find at least one hole that's worn and needs bushing, and the springs need cleaning or replacing. No springs in your clock, but you'll need to fit new lines.

The only clocks that don't seem to suffer from wear are small French clocks. Like a wristwatch, the engineering and materials on these are first class. Fiddly to work on, and very easy to break a pivot, so not the ideal things to learn on!

Bushing worn holes means buying a selection of bushes (Bergeon or KWM) and a set of cutting broaches.

Repairing worn pivots means buying a lathe with a Jacot tool and a drilling jig.

A worn clock that's been cleaned will often run worse than before you started. The dirt takes up some of the slack.

The hardest part of reassembly is getting the timing right on the strike train. Take plenty of photos before you start, and make notes of how the lifting/warning pieces and gathering pallet work, and how the wheels move to warning and release. Also the position of the hammer wheel pins at rest.

Repairing clocks is a black art, much of it is about feel, rather than measuring. If you build or repair a clock following sound engineering practices, chances are it won't run.

I hope I haven't put you off. It just takes a small amount of skill, a bit of lateral thinking, plenty of practice, and bags of patience.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Just removed the movement and taken some pics of the back plate. I've numbered all the pivots protruding through the rear (1-8). The only one that has a significant amount of play at this stage is no. 2 (the escape wheel pivot) which has about 0.5mm play. There may be more play in the others once it's apart and cleaned. Thanks once again for the advice Clockworks, I will take pics every step of the way for reference. You certainly haven't put me off, probably made me more determined to have a go, and with 10 years engineering experience behind me, I'm sure those levers aren't going to be a major problem either. We all have to start somewhere! At least I won't be hunched up over the work bench with an eyeglass jammed in my eye! :thumbsup:


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## JWL940 (Jun 11, 2010)

Cloackworks and Roger

This is fascinating stuff, please keep the advice and photos coming so we can all learn.

As an engineer (of sorts) I just loved this comment:



> If you build or repair a clock following sound engineering practices, chances are it won't run.


I bet there's some hard won experience behind that comment.

Good luck Roger.

John


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Good "ebgibeeribng" practices! :cheers:

I always find a San Miguel or two helps the process - but not the re-building :rofl2:

Don't make my first mistake, I thought I could ID all the parts by sight! :yes: Could I ??







So eventually I had a box full of parts that never went back to-gether again - except when they all went off to the re-cycling together! (But they were all sparkly clean by then! Oh Yes! :wallbash: )


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## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

JWL940 said:


> Cloackworks and Roger
> 
> This is fascinating stuff, please keep the advice and photos coming so we can all learn.
> 
> ...


Definitely found out the hard way. Refinishing pivots and bushing holes is all about how the pivot feels in the new hole. If you measure the pivot and broach the hole to fit, it'll be too tight, and stop the clock. You need to get just the right amount of side shake (5 to 10 degrees of lean on the arbor) to leave space for the oil and a bit of freedom. Pivots are rarely parallel, and the holes aren't either, because you broach (ream) them with a tapered cutter. Pivot shoulders also have a slight radius, and can bind against the inside of the plate.

I've reached the point where I can measure the pivot, broach the hole to fit, then give 2 extra turns of the broach from each side, and it'll work fine. If you've got a clock that needs half a dozen new holes, you can waste the best part of a day here when you first start out. Takes me about an hour now.

Don't be tempted to clean the clock first - do the repairs with it in it's dirty state. It's a lot easier to see what holes need sorting when the staining and crud is still there.

Work on one train at a time, starting with the barrel, and working up the train.

If you need to re-bush at both ends of an arbor, do one end (the one with the most wear), test fit the arbor in the plates, then, when you are happy it's free, do the other end.

Once a complete train has been bushed, refit all the wheels, and test it for freedom in the normal orientation, then dial up and dial down (leave the fly off when checking the strike train). When testing dial up/down, after the train stops spinning, flip the movement and check that the arbours all fall back onto the lower plate with a nice click. If one doesn't, the upper hole is too tight, and the shoulders have jammed.

Looking at that clock, the rear escape pivot has been running dry, same as the front. Chances are the pivot will be badly scored.

Most of the holes have been bushed before. Hopefully the repairer used decent hard brass, and they'll be serviceable after cleaning.

Mel - sounds like you took apart a 3-train (Westminster) clock? They can be really confusing. Most repairers (myself included) mark the chime and strike train wheels with C and S, scribed onto the wheels. It's also handy to make a note of which way around the fly fits (pinion to front or back). If you do both those things, it should be fairly easy to work out what goes where.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice and encouragement guys.....I'm going away for a week to get some sun and will start on this project when I get back. If there's enough interest, I'll start a new thread with pics of the progress and, hopefully, you guys can comment and add your own tips and thoughts (pleeeeease!).....I know I'm asking you to give up your expertise for free....but I'm hoping we're all in this together and that 1) I will learn something and thoroughly enjoy the experience, and 2) this may encourage others who feel they have the competence, to have a go. Thanks, Rog. :notworthy: :thumbsup:

Edit...please let me know if this idea is a 'goer'


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## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

I'm happy to help, and would be interested to see/hear how others tackle jobs like this. Like I said, I'm self-taught, with help from books and a couple of experienced repairers, so I'm sure I can learn something, too.


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## JWL940 (Jun 11, 2010)

> If there's enough interest, I'll start a new thread with pics of the progress and, hopefully, you guys can comment and add your own tips and thoughts (pleeeeease!)


Roger and Clockworks I think this is a great idea and will closely follow it alongside the 6309 project elsewhere. As for comments can I start by asking for lots of pictures and your comments in English - I still don't know my pinions from my pivots. :dontgetit:

Enjoy your holiday Roger, sunny Cornwall for me next month.

John


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

clockworks said:


> Mel - sounds like you took apart a 3-train (Westminster) clock? They can be really confusing. Most repairers (myself included) mark the chime and strike train wheels with C and S, scribed onto the wheels. It's also handy to make a note of which way around the fly fits (pinion to front or back). If you do both those things, it should be fairly easy to work out what goes where.


Oh yes indeedy, you've got the nail and the hammer in the correct position - right on the head!









I did manage to (sort of) re-assemble the striking bit once, and it chimed all wrong - went bong when it should have binged if you know what I mean. :lol:

Eventually (after some months), I gave up and it went as scrap at work into the brass bin!

But it was very clean by then :hypocrite:


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## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

Yes, the timing can be a real pain. I usually set up the strike train first (hammer wheel to gathering pallet, if the clock locks on the pallet), then fit the lifting & warning pieces and time the rest of the train, with the chime train locked. Next, I add the lifting cam to the front of the chime train. Unless I'm really unlucky, the warning wheel will be timed OK. Finally, I add the chime hammers and drum, timing them to the lifting cam at the end of the first quarter.

Despite years of practice, it still takes me around 2 hours to re-assemble and time a 3-train. It's a full day's work to service one of these, and can end up costing more than the clock is worth.

Give me a knackered old longcase to work on, any day.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks for the positive feedback guys. As I said earlier, I'm going away for a week over the BH period and will hope to make a start after I get back. In the meantime, is there a fairly good reference book available that would help in my first attempts as I don't really want to be pestering you all with simple questions. I am also going to have to put together a basic 'clock' tool kit....I already have most things needed for watch repair...bearing in mind that at the moment this will be a one off project, so I don't want to end up purchasing things I may never use again, only the essentials. I know I'll have to get some cleaner, clock oil and some new lines and maybe some bushes. I don't think this will be a 'rush' job, more gently, gently so please be patient! :thumbsup:


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## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

When I first started, I borrowed all the books on the subject that I could find in my local library. I also bought a couple:

Clocks and clock repairing - Eric Smith

Practical clock repairing - Donald de Carle

A couple of authors that I've seen recommended:

Mick Watters

Laurie Penman

To fit bushes, you'll need a set of cutting broaches. Range of sizes from 1.5mm to 4.5mm should be enough to start with.

Small hammer and some punches, for setting the bushes.

Pivot file, for re-finishing pivots. Normally used with a lathe, but, for work this size, you can get away with using a drill to spin the arbor.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Hi chaps...back from hols now and going to start gathering together the bits I need to start the project. I got hold of a 2nd hand copy of Eric Smith's book Clocks & clock Repairing and Donald de Carles Practical Clock Repairing before I went away (I ordered them from Amazon on the Tuesday, and they were here on Thursday!!!) The first things I'm going to get are a small bottle of Windles watch oil, some pegwood for cleaning the pivot holes, and some new lines, (though I'm not sure whether to go for the gut, or the newer monofilament type) as these are definately going to be required, and I'll order other bits as and if needed. I already have a lot of needle files, punches, drifts and drills left over from my engineering days, so I'm hoping I won't need to get much more in the way of specialist tools...maybe a broach if needed. I haven't ordered cleaner, because I want to try Eric Smiths cleaning fluid, which is a solution of soap and household ammonia. The first thing I'm going to do is to mark the relative positions of the wheels to each other with small scribe lines, then photograph, before dismantling. I'll start a complete new thread when I begin, so hopefully it'll be easy to follow...shall I do it here, or down in Tinkerers corner? (though that is more for watches)


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## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

For a longcase, you'll need Windle's medium clock oil and Windle's heavy turret clock oil. Use medium oil on the train pivots, pallets, warning pin, fly and lifting/warning pieces. Use the heavy oil on the barrel arbors, clicks, hammer arbor and hammer pins.

I always use synthetic lines. Easier to work with, lasts forever, and the Meadows & Passmore stuff even looks like gut! Tip - add a drop of superglue to the knots. It keeps them secure. As soon as you hang the weights, the knots will pull tight, but they can slip when there's no load on the lines.

I've not tried mixing my own cleaner, but AFAIK the Horolene that I use is basically ammonia and liquid soap. Works a lot better if it's hand-hot.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks for that, Clockworks...I don't know why I put watch oil in that last post, I meant clock oil. Will go for the synthetic lines too. I normally get my stuff from Cousins UK, so I'll try them first.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

OK guys...I've started the dismantle...but I think I will post this project down in Tinkerers corner to save the mods having to move it later....see ya down there! :thumbsup:


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