# Is This Boctok Real...



## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

:lol:

OK, seriously now... I think this watch is a mix of an ÐÐ¼Ñ„Ð¸Ð±Ð¸Ñ and perhaps a ÐšÐ¾Ð¼Ð°Ð½Ð´Ð¸Ñ€ÑÐºÐ¸Ðµ.




























The hands, dial, crown, movement and caseback are ÐÐ¼Ñ„Ð¸Ð±Ð¸Ñ, but the case looks rather delicate. Perhaps an experienced forum member can clear this up for me. This piece didn't cost very much, and I bought it thinking it was a wrong'un.

Later,

William


----------



## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Well, from what I can tell from the pictures it's probably a franken made from a recent Amphibia (case, crown, case-back and hands) and an antimagnectic Komandirskie dial and bezel (old-style bezel, not unique to the the antimagnectic). But then again, you never know with this watches, they mixed a lot of parts together, it's not like telling if a Rolex or an Omega is genuine piece from a particular year. Whatever it is, it's nice!!

Can you open the back and see if there's an antimagnectic shield and what movement is in there? Particularly if it's a wind up or an auto and if the movement is marked as RU or SU?


----------



## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

The shield is there and the movement is an unlabeled 2409. It came from Thailand, and I figured it was a collection of parts. By Russian standards, it is in mint condition.









Later,

William


----------



## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

William_Wilson said:


> The shield is there and the movement is an unlabeled 2409. It came from Thailand, and I figured it was a collection of parts. By Russian standards, it is in mint condition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Strange the movement not having any markings on it, I think I never saw one like that... well, it's a lot nicer than an Hello Kitty I'm thinking of anyway


----------



## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

Kutusov said:


> Well, from what I can tell from the pictures it's probably a franken made from a recent Amphibia (case, crown, case-back and hands) and an antimagnectic Komandirskie dial and bezel (old-style bezel, not unique to the the antimagnectic). But then again, you never know with this watches, they mixed a lot of parts together, it's not like telling if a Rolex or an Omega is genuine piece from a particular year. Whatever it is, it's nice!!
> 
> Can you open the back and see if there's an antimagnectic shield and what movement is in there? Particularly if it's a wind up or an auto and if the movement is marked as RU or SU?


I thought the ÐšÐ¾Ð¼Ð°Ð½Ð´Ð¸Ñ€ÑÐºÐ¸Ðµ watch dials had "Ð-Ð°ÐºÐ°Ð· ÐœÐž Ð¡Ð¡Ð¡Ð " on them. Were there civilian models or newer models without the Ministry of Defence labeling?



Kutusov said:


> William_Wilson said:
> 
> 
> > The shield is there and the movement is an unlabeled 2409. It came from Thailand, and I figured it was a collection of parts. By Russian standards, it is in mint condition.
> ...












Kitty says Hello. :lol:

Later,

William


----------



## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

It "might" be one of the Ladies Model cases from your piccie, but I don't currently have access to my copy of JL's book, there's a few illustrated there. A limited range of smaller-ish Boctoks were made for Ladies use, but I'm not sure if I've ever actually seen one in real life. :lol:

If it is a Ladies one, they're quite rare-ish I believe :to_become_senile:


----------



## Draygo (Mar 18, 2010)

IMHO, this all looks OK. It may well be a collection of parts... but they could have been put together in the factory - it's the way they seemed to work sometimes. So if they had some spare bezels, they get used. I've seen 'antimagnetic' Amphibias, and Komandirskies, and although this bezel is more often on a Komandirskie, they crop up on both. The case looks OK to me. Most 'antimagnetic' Amphibias don't have this case, but I'm sure I've seen them like this in some of the 'reference' collections. Anyway, it's all IMHO, but I think it's OK. And as to the differences between Amphibias and Komandirskies, well.. that's another story. (In short, not much.)

I like this bezel - with the lume dot at 12.

My only negative observation: You seem to have a few letters missing from the 'antimagnetic' on the dial. 

Just my 2 kopeks worth.


----------



## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

mel said:


> It "might" be one of the Ladies Model cases from your piccie, but I don't currently have access to my copy of JL's book, there's a few illustrated there. A limited range of smaller-ish Boctoks were made for Ladies use, but I'm not sure if I've ever actually seen one in real life. :lol:
> 
> If it is a Ladies one, they're quite rare-ish I believe :to_become_senile:


Mel, it just so happens I installed a new battery in my digital caliper this morning. The case measures 39.8 mm excluding crown. It's true though, many Soviet women were rather "sturdy" in stature.

Later,

William


----------



## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

Draygo said:


> IMHO, this all looks OK. It may well be a collection of parts... but they could have been put together in the factory - it's the way they seemed to work sometimes. So if they had some spare bezels, they get used. I've seen 'antimagnetic' Amphibias, and Komandirskies, and although this bezel is more often on a Komandirskie, they crop up on both. The case looks OK to me. Most 'antimagnetic' Amphibias don't have this case, but I'm sure I've seen them like this in some of the 'reference' collections. Anyway, it's all IMHO, but I think it's OK. And as to the differences between Amphibias and Komandirskies, well.. that's another story. (In short, not much.)


I had no doubt that the pieces were all BocTok. I just wondered if they were originally meant to go together in the same watch. Russian factories are notorious for making do with what they have handy, which makes it hard to know if it came from the factory that way. Russian workers were also well known for walking out the back door with parts and inventory and selling them off privately, when the factories failed to pay them on time.











Draygo said:


> I like this bezel - with the lume dot at 12.


Oddly enough, the other BocTok I purchesed has the same style bezel.



Draygo said:


> My only negative observation: You seem to have a few letters missing from the 'antimagnetic' on the dial.


Smarty pants.:lol:

Later,

William


----------



## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

I didn't know about those ladie's Amphibias, the ones I know of are those mini-Amphibias with a crown at 2 and even those aren't definitely a ladies only model. The measure of that case falls into the regular Amphibia cases.

So like most of the other guys, I think it's legit enough and looks very good!


----------



## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

I'm liking the smaller case, it's very tidy. The dark green, sort of satin finished, dial is nice without being too loud. It seems to be keeping time within a few seconds a day. I have a cheap silly cone strap coming for it, that should make it a good low dollar piece.

Later,

William


----------



## howie77 (Jun 21, 2009)

Sorry to bump an old thread, it was of some interest. It's my understanding that the 'old' Amphibias of the CCCP period were smaller (as in less deep) than the new 2416b Amhibia's, as they featured the 2409 movement which being hand-wound was consequentially thinner. They were nonetheless still stainless steel, as opposed to the 2414 powered Komandirskies of that time. And further in its favour, the hands also indicate Amphibia.

In which case yours would be legit I suspect?

edited to also say, that I was of the belief that early Komandirskies of that time also featured crown guards, whereas this does not, and appears to feature the large crown typical of the Amphibia.


----------



## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

howie77 said:


> Sorry to bump an old thread, it was of some interest. It's my understanding that the 'old' Amphibias of the CCCP period were smaller (as in less deep) than the new 2416b Amhibia's, as they featured the 2409 movement which being hand-wound was consequentially thinner. They were nonetheless still stainless steel, as opposed to the 2414 powered Komandirskies of that time. And further in its favour, the hands also indicate Amphibia.
> 
> In which case yours would be legit I suspect?
> 
> edited to also say, that I was of the belief that early Komandirskies of that time also featured crown guards, whereas this does not, and appears to feature the large crown typical of the Amphibia.


I have no definite answer as to what case the ÐÐ¼Ñ„Ð¸Ð±Ð¸Ñ with the green dial has. The ones similar to it, I have seen on the internet, seem to have come from Thailand. I know it is more delicate than my 80's ÐÐ¼Ñ„Ð¸Ð±Ð¸Ñ, which also has a 2409 movement.



















Later,

William


----------



## howie77 (Jun 21, 2009)

Think I may have found yours William - it might well be the 774585.

Item ten from this list - old vostoks

And with the exception of the bezel, in which case this example has the more current style, this might be yours?

green dial CCCP

Pics...




























One other resource, with pictures. vostok CCCP 17 jewel










cheers,

Howie


----------



## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

howie77 said:


> Think I may have found yours William - it might well be the 774585.
> 
> Item ten from this list - old vostoks
> 
> ...


Good job searching. :thumbsup:

Those photos certainly are of the same dial and case type. I zoomed in on the photo of the caseback, and there is no doubt it is the same case, as it's size is identical relevant to the retaining ring. The bezels don't really tell us much because of the simple interchangeability.

It's too bad nobody had a model series number posted. Considering how cheap they are, it's all just a bit of fun anyway. 

Later,

William


----------



## howie77 (Jun 21, 2009)

You're more than welcome! I enjoyed the search, completely forgot to go to bed until near 5am as you can tell from the time of some of my updates, was so absorbed in it! All good fun.

And you know the funny thing? I still don't own an Amphibia. Though that may well change soon...


----------



## howie77 (Jun 21, 2009)

William_Wilson said:


> The shield is there and the movement is an unlabeled 2409. It came from Thailand, and I figured it was a collection of parts. By Russian standards, it is in mint condition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Incidentally William, the seller wouldn't have been Thaigoodwill, would it? (310311686565)


----------



## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

howie77 said:


> William_Wilson said:
> 
> 
> > The shield is there and the movement is an unlabeled 2409. It came from Thailand, and I figured it was a collection of parts. By Russian standards, it is in mint condition.
> ...


That was the seller. :yes: If you're interested, the transaction was a smooth one.

Later,

William


----------



## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

William_Wilson said:


> It's too bad nobody had a model series number posted. Considering how cheap they are, it's all just a bit of fun anyway.


I used to think you couldn't pinpoint a Vostok based on that but someone posted in some other thread a link to some forum where they do have such a list. I don't think it was WUS and I can't find the topic I'm referring to but basically the idea was that the serials had a very specific meaning after-all!

Ok, I found what I meant on my files. It was for Raketa watches but it's still interesting. This is a copy/paste from someone and it's probably on some other topic so sorry to whoever took to trouble writing this for me failing to give you credit.

"Additional designations, on the calibers of hours, Soviet production.

________________________________________

The caliber of mechanism and its distinctive design features is assumed as the basis of the ciphers of hours.

If two mechanisms have identical distinguishing features, but different in the design concept, then to the cipher of the mechanism, which is developed more lately, on the time, from the right side is added the letter N, for example, â€œrocketâ€ 2609 2609[N]. With the appearance of new mechanisms with the same distinguishing features to the cipher about the right side through the points is added 1[N], 2[N], for example, â€œthe rocket " of 2603[N], 2603.1[N], and so forth awarding cipher to the modernized mechanisms is produced as follows:

a) if the given modernization does not draw a change in the expenditures for the production of hours (modification of the construction of separate parts and the like), then to mechanism is appropriated the cipher of the basic mechanism, to which from the right side it is added one of the following capital letters of Russian alphabet: A, B, C, G, D and e. for example, mechanism had a cipher â€œrocket " 2609. As a result modernization was changed the construction of trigger and the spring of trigger. Cipher of mechanism after modernization - â€œrocketâ€ of 2609[A];

B ) if after modernization mechanism will differ from primary construction in terms of a quantity of functional stones, then in this case its cipher will consist of the cipher of primary construction, to which to the right through the point is added the letter [k] and the number, which designates a quantity of functional stones, different from the primary construction. For example, the cipher of primary construction - â€œrocketâ€ 2609. Cipher of mechanism after modernization - â€œrocketâ€ of 2609.[K]5;

c) if after modernization changes the accuracy of the motion of mechanism, then

to mechanism is appropriated the cipher of primary construction, to which to the right through the point it is added: P the increased accuracy, is i-th the first class, the second class is 2nd. For example, mechanism before the modernization was the second class and had cipher â€œrocketâ€ 2609, after modernization it became the first class, its cipher - â€œrocketâ€ 2609.1;

d) if the modernized mechanism differs from primary construction in terms of a quantity of functional stones and in terms of the accuracy of motion, then to it is appropriated the cipher of primary construction, to which to the right through the point is added the sign of the accuracy of the motion of mechanism, the letter [k] and the number, which designates a quantity of functional stones, different from the primary construction. For example, the cipher of primary construction - â€œrocketâ€ 2609, the cipher of mechanism after modernization - â€œrocketâ€ of 2609.1[K]5;

e) if as a result modernization is created mechanism with the design features, different from the primary construction, then new cipher is appropriated to this mechanism. For example, before the modernization mechanism had a cipher 2600. In the process of modernization the mechanism with the lateral per-second is created"


----------

