# Doxa Chinese made?



## JayDeep (Dec 31, 2016)

Was recently faced with a potential realization that Doxa watches aren't "Swiss made" as claimed. Some guy in another forum claimed that it's part of some watch group based and produced in China. Or at the very least definitely not Swiss.

He claimed that nobody has ever seen or been inside of the supposed Doxa Swiss factory, which was his proof of his findings.

Any thoughts or knowledge?


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

Unfortunately for some time now they have relied a lot on their asian markets for sales so now they have 2 lines. A swiss one and a chinese one.

Even the swiss ones have a lot of chinese in them but not necessarily different from many other brands (even big name ones) that produce/outsource to China.

The cheap ones are so and so but the expensive ones are alright.


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## longplay (Sep 27, 2017)

They're pretty unequivocal that they make their watches in Switzerland, although we all know that's not as clear-cut as it claims:

http://www.doxawatches.com/QA.html


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## Perlative Cernometer (Jan 1, 2018)

JayDeep said:


> He claimed that nobody has ever seen or been inside of the supposed Doxa Swiss factory, which was his proof of his findings.


 Wasn't Fox news was it? Hasn't seen it, can't be real!


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## ry ry (Nov 25, 2018)

JayDeep said:


> He claimed that nobody has ever seen or been inside of the supposed Doxa Swiss factory, which was his proof of his findings.
> 
> Any thoughts or knowledge?


 The Swiss are fairly militant about companies claiming to be Swiss Made - the parts might be from wherever, but i'd imagine they are assembled there at the very least.

They need to actively defend the label to retain control.

Edit: i read the link above, seems to imply the above. They never claim everything is of Swiss origin, but meet the requirements. Sounds like the bloke in the other forum is a tinfoil hatter, or just dislikes the brand. Maybe both. Jetfuel doesn't melt Tw steel watches! Etc.


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

doxa watches were most definately a swiss concern back in the 50s 60s......and made some very good quality watches.....don't know if they were bought up at a later date?


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

Any one that spends more than a grand on a watch that is supposedly a "Swiss watch" when there is absolute not evidence whatsoever of Swiss manufacturing is fat-of-wallet in my opinion. I can stand out side the buildings where my three "decent" watches were made and point. If you can't stand and point at a Doxa manufacturing building then spend the money elsewhere would be my advice....


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Perhaps some forum members who actually own a Doxa would like to comment. @it'salivejim :yes:


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

A tin-hatter indeed:

*Every DOXA watch listed on this website is Swiss Made. The FHS (the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry) enforces the Swiss law regulating the use of the "Swiss Made" label.

Every DOXA dive watch listed on this site meets, and in many instances far exceeds these requirements.
All of the DOXA watches sold on this site, and through our authorized DOXA resellers are 100% hand assembled in the heart of Switzerland. The Swiss Made label ("place of origin" in legal terms) enjoys a solid reputation throughout the world. "Swiss made" embodies a concept of quality that has been forged over the years.

It includes the technical quality of watches (accuracy, reliability, water-resistance and shock-resistance), as well as their aesthetic quality (elegance and originality of design).*

http://www.doxawatches.co.uk/Swiss-Made.htm

There is another strand of pretty horrible Doxa watches that are probably made in China, but not the Sub Diver range.


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## vinn (Jun 14, 2015)

Perlative Cernometer said:


> Wasn't Fox news was it? Hasn't seen it, can't be real!


 Fake News; must be BBC.


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## rhaythorne (Jan 12, 2004)

JayDeep said:


> He claimed that nobody has ever seen or been inside of the supposed Doxa Swiss factory, which was his proof of his findings.


 Maybe there isn't an actual "Doxa" factory. It could be that they're made by one of the Swiss factories that produces various private label brands. Cattin, Roventa-Henex, Mondaine Group or Zeno-Watch Basel, for example.


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxa_S.A.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Doxa-WW2-Military-Pocket-Watch/173800497456?hash=item2877512130:g:vXwAAOSwBRpcavK3

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202240054566

as i mentioned doxa were a quality manufacturer of watches c 1950's/60s......we need @Always"watching".......and his research skills ....don't know what became of the company recently......but the name "doxa".....is certainly equated with "quality" and "swiss"



vinn said:


> Fake News; must be BBC.


 with an illustrative history


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

I am quite surprised that I have not written a topic on Doxa, dear @enfuseeast, and the brand has had a long life, interrupted by about twenty years when it was not in operation.

The original Doxa watch company was founded in 1889 by George Ducommun, and from its small beginnings, the firm expanded and entered various timekeeping markets. Doxa is probably best known for dive watches, which it started producing from the late 1960s, notably the Sub300 and the Sub300 Conquistador - the latter having a helium escape valve. Importantly, Doxa was severely hit by the Quartz Crisis, and the company ceased production in 1980. The revived Doxa concern from August 2002 was (and may still be) in the hands of the Jenny family of Switzerland, and has produced a number of re-editions of older Doxa models in limited quantities. I am not sure if there is any family connection between the original Doxa concern and the current Doxa brand.


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

he he.... knew you would have something on this brand @Always"watching"........i've bidded and lost on a few on e bay..(from 50s/60s).......you can see the quality in the movements......don't know much about the dive watches.....or what happened to doxa after "the quartz crisis".....but would love to know more.........


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## JayDeep (Dec 31, 2016)

gimli said:


> Unfortunately for some time now they have relied a lot on their asian markets for sales so now they have 2 lines. A swiss one and a chinese one.
> 
> Even the swiss ones have a lot of chinese in them but not necessarily different from many other brands (even big name ones) that produce/outsource to China.
> 
> The cheap ones are so and so but the expensive ones are alright.


 Cheap? Doxa? Lol what you talking about Willis?



JonnyOldBoy said:


> Any one that spends more than a grand on a watch that is supposedly a "Swiss watch" when there is absolute not evidence whatsoever of Swiss manufacturing is fat-of-wallet in my opinion. I can stand out side the buildings where my three "decent" watches were made and point. If you can't stand and point at a Doxa manufacturing building then spend the money elsewhere would be my advice....


 Well that seems almost impossible to do from America so..... Yeah. Lol



WRENCH said:


> Perhaps some forum members who actually own a Doxa would like to comment. @it'salivejim :yes:


 I own a Doxa, it says Swiss made but the claims I was reading were just interesting to me. So I wanted clarification.



it'salivejim said:


> There is another strand of pretty horrible Doxa watches that are probably made in China, but not the Sub Diver range.


 There's another "strand" of Doxa watches? Not divers? I'm so confused now. Lol


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

JayDeep said:


> I own﻿ a Doxa, it says Swiss made but the claims I was reading were just interesting to me. So I ﻿wante﻿d clarific﻿ation.﻿﻿


 If it's good, well made, and you like it, I wouldn't bother too much about it.

https://www.throttlexbatteries.com/throttlex-blog/where-are-harley-davidson-motorcycles-made/


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

Interesting @WRENCH
Harley Davidson had a maufacturing plant in Hiroshima in 1929...I won't ask if it's still there


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

enfuseeast said:


> Interesting @WRENCH
> Harley Davidson had a maufacturing plant in Hiroshima in 1929...I won't ask if it's still there


 




Worth a read as well. Not just about bikes, but about the "made in" label in general. 

http://theconversation.com/why-it-doesnt-matter-if-a-harley-is-made-in-america-99267


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

WRENCH said:


>


 Kinda puts today's trade wars into perspective.....and here was me all ready to cut back on my Harley Davidson/peanut butter/Levi jeans consumption in response to Trump 's levy on steel/aluminium


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

enfuseeast said:


> Kinda﻿﻿ puts t﻿oday's trade w﻿ars int﻿o pe﻿rspec﻿tiv﻿e.﻿.


 Some historical reading.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/fashion/watches-counterfeits.html?_r=0


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

JayDeep said:


> Well that seems almost impossible to do from America so..... Yeah. Lol


 Well just ask @Karrusel to pop over to En Suisse to point for you !! :thumbsup:

[ he loves a trip or two .... ]

I am in the "US of A" late June this year.... In the "Seiko" state....


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

WRENCH said:


> Some historical reading.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/fashion/watches-counterfeits.html?_r=0


 Interesting stuff ....Ironically....half way through the article....there was an advert for Huawei....which said "business values born of European science" lol....but I have a Huawei phone....and don't know if I'm being targeted by cookies....or worse.... "Malicious Firmware" . .....lol...


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Oh no not this old nutmeg! It's been doing the rounds since the early noughties.

Doxa are made by Walca S.A. which has the same address as Doxa S.A. and both are owned by the Jenny family (yes that "Jenny"). Walca S.A. are one of the largest, if not the largest, private label manufacturers in Switzerland and own Swiss facilities for manufacturing cases, hands and dials. They also have a factory in Hong Kong which manufactures low cost parts for entry level brands.

Doxa are a member of Fédération de l'industrie horlogère suisse FH and complies with the "Swiss Made" which is legislated under Federal Law.

In essence for a watch to be "Swiss Made" it has to fulfil the following four criteria:



Swiss movement


The movement has been encased in Switzerland


Final inspection carried out in Switzerland


Minimum of 60% of manufacturing costs are generated in Switzerland


Doxa maintain that they exceed these requirements and they also say that the cases are made in Walca's Swiss facility and not made in the Hong Kong facility.

Could there be some Chinese sourced parts? Yes there could be but it is certainly not a Chinese made watch.


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

JayDeep said:


> There's another "strand" of Doxa watches? Not divers? I'm so confused now. Lo


 It's all these, apart from the Sub collection:

https://www.doxa.ch/kollektion/active/


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

JoT said:


> Oh no not this old nutmeg! It's been doing the rounds since the early noughties.
> 
> Doxa are made by Walca S.A. which has the same address as Doxa S.A. and both are owned by the Jenny family (yes that "Jenny"). Walca S.A. are one of the largest, if not the largest, private label manufacturers in Switzerland and own Swiss facilities for manufacturing cases, hands and dials. They also have a factory in Hong Kong which manufactures low cost parts for entry level brands.
> 
> ...


 So where is their assembly facility then ? Its claimed above in this thread that its unknown.... so to put "this old nutmeg" to bed ( or perhaps , into the mulled wine ) where are these luxury watches actually made ? Surely it can't be "secret" !?!? hoto:


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

JonnyOldBoy said:


> So where is their assembly facility then ? Its claimed above in this thread that its unknown.... so to put "this old nutmeg" to bed ( or perhaps , into the mulled wine ) where are these luxury watches actually made ? Surely it can't be "secret" !?!? hoto:


 Bienne. Try the Swiss Yellow Pages


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> Bienne. Try the Swiss Yellow Pages




If you still cannot find the answer for your questions please contact us using the form below, choosing the right department


*
Contact DOXA Watches :
*

Please direct any questions to the correct department:

Department: 
Please Select Sales & Product info Order enquiries Service & Warranty *

First Name : 
*

Last Name : 
*

Email : 
*

Telephone :

Your Enquiry : Where is your factory please ?


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

JonnyOldBoy said:


> So where is their assembly facility then ? Its claimed above in this thread that its unknown.... so to put "this old nutmeg" to bed ( or perhaps , into the mulled wine ) where are these luxury watches actually made ? Surely it can't be "secret" !?!? hoto:


 Doxa don't have their own facilities, did I not make that clear enough when I said they are made by Walca? According to Doxa they are assembled by finishers in the Ticino canton.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Here.

https://www.walca.ch


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## ry ry (Nov 25, 2018)

Guys we've cracked it Doxa (note the D) are a Daniel Wellington sub brand. The clues are there because any bildenberg offshoot implicitly has to leave clues for wiley internet sleuths.

Doxa

D O X A

"D ? X (which is just one letter away from W) ?" Wake up sheeple??!??!

Also 'doxxing' is a thing (hello? 'dox' a?) - it's a challenge laid out for only the brightest and the best to unravel. The lie goes deep. The money they pay people - people you might even know??! - to shill for the 'quality' of their watches is funneled from the Socialist Workers Institute of Secular Science.

SWISS. Yeah, it's 'SWISS made'. Because they registered the name 'Swiss' as a trademark in 1982 before Switzerland existed. The so-called 'Swiss watch industry' is an elaborate hoax designed to fool the week minded into buying Doxa watches.

You've been duped by clever marketing by agents of chaos working to bring about the singular goal of destroying capitalism. Guaranteed Chinese-made junk. 100%. My mate Barry literally knows a guy who visited their Chinese factory where every Doxa had it's Casio branding stripped off, and you know what else? They spit in every watch. Because they hate freedom.

Screw Doxa. Don't be suckered by the hype of this mainstream scam. The wise know. stay vigilant.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

ry ry said:


> Doxa﻿.﻿ Don't be su﻿ckered by ﻿the hype of ﻿this mainst﻿ream scam﻿.﻿


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## ry ry (Nov 25, 2018)

I'm glad at least one of us is able to see the man behind the curtain - the shadowy Svengali controlling our watch buying.


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

JoT said:


> Doxa don't have their own facilities,


 Ah... got it. So Doxa don't make watches in Switzerland... They just sell watches that have been made in Switzerland ....


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

JayDeep said:


> Cheap? Doxa? Lol what you talking about Willis?
> 
> Well that seems almost impossible to do from America so..... Yeah. Lol
> 
> ...


 There are Doxas that start at 90$ or so...


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

gimli said:


> There are Doxas that start at 90$ or so...


 I wonder if duality of the brand may explain why the fanfare announced retailing of their stuff by HS Johnson and Jura never actually happened as announced. I seem to remember hearing in the Watchy-press a couple of years back that they were both going to retail Doxa in the UK ... Can't remember if they did dabble then pull out , or whether it never happened at all....


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## Rab (Mar 26, 2009)

JonnyOldBoy said:


> Ah... got it. So Doxa don't make watches in Switzerland... They just sell watches that have been made in Switzerland ....


 Doesn't this apply to many of the smaller and newer watch companies though?

I don't think Christopher Ward have their own factory, I believe that Victorinox use Xantia and I'm pretty sure they're not alone, although the "private label" manufacturers, understandably, are somewhat reticent to state for whom they manufacture, even within companies who have their own facilities, I'm willing to bet there are very few that make every single component themselves.


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

Rab said:


> Doesn't this apply to many of the smaller and newer watch companies though?


 Indeed it does. Not got a problem with that at all for a £100-£1000 watch .... higher than that then I start to question the value ( question mind , not necessarily always object to it ) , £2k+ though and I would not be spending on a watch that is not a product of in-house manufacture/assembly.

CW as you mentioned are a great example. They offer very very good value in their sales , and not bad value for a large chunk of their offerings at full RRP.... and they are basically ( as you say ) a watch design and retailing company. But if they were operating the same business model for , say , a £3000 watch , I would start to question what exactly I am paying for and where the value really is.....

To some extent its a shifting sands argument but generally speaking you perhaps get my drift....


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## Rab (Mar 26, 2009)

JonnyOldBoy said:


> Indeed it does. Not got a problem with that at all for a £100-£1000 watch .... higher than that then I start to question the value ( question mind , not necessarily always object to it ) , £2k+ though and I would not be spending on a watch that is not a product of in-house manufacture/assembly.
> 
> CW as you mentioned are a great example. They offer very very good value in their sales , and not bad value for a large chunk of their offerings at full RRP.... and they are basically ( as you say ) a watch design and retailing company. But if they were operating the same business model for , say , a £3000 watch , I would start to question what exactly I am paying for and where the value really is.....
> 
> To some extent its a shifting sands argument but generally speaking you perhaps get my drift....


 Yep, I see what you mean and I do agree, there is a price point at which I also would expect the watch to be made (at least in part) by the company whose name is on the dial.

Not entirely sure where I'd put that cost though, I suspect it would depend on how shiny I think the watch is.


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

Rab said:


> Yep, I see what you mean and I do agree, there is a price point at which I also would expect the watch to be made (at least in part) by the company whose name is on the dial.
> 
> Not entirely sure where I'd put that cost though, I suspect it would depend on how shiny I think the watch is.


 Yep... its all about shiny !! LOL .....


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

ry ry said:


> Guys we've cracked it Doxa (note the D) are a Daniel Wellington sub brand. The clues are there because any bildenberg offshoot implicitly has to leave clues for wiley internet sleuths.
> 
> Doxa
> 
> ...


 am torn between these two @ry ry.....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KIENZLE-MAO-TSE-TUNG-WAVING-HAND-GENTS-VINTAGE-WATCH-MADE-IN-GERMANY/292974693302

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1940-50s-Vintage-Doxa-14ct-Gold-Swiss-Mens-Dress-Watch-35-2mm-Manual/202598057374?hash=item2f2bc9059e:g:bLkAAOSwD39ahA-X:rk:29f:0

one of them is german pretending to be chinese or visa versa......the other is too well made to have been produced in china C1950s :swoon:


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## ry ry (Nov 25, 2018)

enfuseeast said:


> am torn between these two @ry ry.....
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KIENZLE-MAO-TSE-TUNG-WAVING-HAND-GENTS-VINTAGE-WATCH-MADE-IN-GERMANY/292974693302
> 
> ...


 They are the same watch.

Part of the bildenberg/build-a-bear conspiracy revolved around painting over the dials of watches depicting Mao with paint that became slightly more transparent when people reached a temperature at which the membranes in their brain that impact susceptibility to subliminal suggestion loosen, allowing more brain protines to reinforce subconscious ideas.

It's cynical and it disgusts me. Brands like Rolex have charitably offered great value for money for years in the face of a hostile industry for years, whilst so-called 'doxa' which translates as "MKUltra" in certain regional Chinese dialects continue to seek to dominate the minds of god-fearing middle America.

The only way to strike back effectively is to ensure these communist stooges so not further corrupt the soft impressionable minds of our youth. I do this through a combined approach of only buying mil-spec tactical watches that maximize my combat efficiency whether I'm in Lidl OR Aldi, and also enduring that the sum of the serial number on my watch is always even, and not a multiple of 23. Both surefire signs of crisis actor tampering.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

ry ry said:


> It's﻿ cynical and it disgusts me. Brands like Rolex have charitably offered great value for money for years in the face of a hostile industry for years, whilst so-called 'doxa' which translates as "MKUltra" in certain regional Chinese dialects continue to seek to dominate the minds of god-fearing middle America.
> 
> The on﻿ly way to strike back effectively is to ensure these communist stooges so not further corrupt the soft impressionable minds of our youth. I do this through a combined approach﻿ of only buying mil-spec tactical watches that maximize my combat efficiency whether I'm i﻿n Lidl OR Aldi, and also enduring that the sum of the serial number on my watch is alway﻿s even, and not a multiple of 23. Both surefire signs of crisis actor tampering.﻿﻿


 What ? :laughing2dw:


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## ry ry (Nov 25, 2018)

Lidl OR Aldi.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

ry ry said:


> Lidl OR Aldi.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Rab said:


> Yep, I see what you mean and I do agree, there is a price point at which I also would expect the watch to be made (at least in part) by the company whose name is on the dial.
> 
> Not entirely sure where I'd put that cost though, I suspect it would depend on how shiny I think the watch is.


 You would be surprised at the number of brands who use private label manufacturers, in fact I would say most brands use them

Here's another private label company https://roventa-henex.com/

"We design, develop and manufacture watches which carry our customers'brand name, reflecting the image and quality that they desire".

Here's another private label manufacturer https://www.grovana.ch/

Yes they make their own watches; Grovana, Revue Thommen and Swiss Alpine Military

They also do private label manufacturing for goodness knows who!


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

I quite like the chairman Mao watch with its waving hand ....Kinda reminds me of one of them "lucky golden cats"...you are often astounded by that wave at you from chip shop windows....Perhaps the "Chairman Meow"....is Kienzle's toned down version of an earlier watch with "saluting" hand ...popular in late 30s Germany....there's no accounting for taste @ry ry


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## vinn (Jun 14, 2015)

> I am quite surprised that I have not written a topic on Doxa, dear @enfuseeast, and the brand has had a long life, interrupted by about twenty years when it was not in operation.
> 
> The original Doxa watch company was founded in 1889 by George Ducommun, and from its small beginnings, the firm expanded and entered various timekeeping markets. Doxa is probably best known for dive watches, which it started producing from the late 1960s, notably the Sub300 and the Sub300 Conquistador - the latter having a helium escape valve. Importantly, Doxa was severely hit by the Quartz Crisis, and the company ceased production in 1980. The revived Doxa concern from August 2002 was (and may still be) in the hands of the Jenny family of Switzerland, and has produced a number of re-editions of older Doxa models in limited quantities. I am not sure if there is any family connection between the original Doxa concern and the current Doxa brand.


 Doxa dive watches: i first heard of them in the early 50's from the novel by the author Clive Cusler. he was a radial engine mechanic during the war. and later opened a dive shop and sold the doxa dive watch, menchioned may times in his first novel. in the 1980's he was searching for the submarine Hunley near Charlston USA - still wearing the same dive watch. his books financed the diving. vin


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## JayDeep (Dec 31, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> It's all these, apart from the Sub collection:
> 
> https://www.doxa.ch/kollektion/active/


 Crazy they still say Swiss made on the dials. I can see why someone might question them all if they have to question any.


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## JayDeep (Dec 31, 2016)

I can't say that I much care of something is done "in house" or not. Just in country of claim is what I care about. $1k to 100k makes me difference, I just want quality. Not being produced in house doesn't mean not quality. So I'm good there.

This is all still very vexing to me. But I love the watch and have nary an issue with it.


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

JayDeep said:


> I just want quality. Not being produced in house doesn't mean not quality.


 True , it just means you have less control on quality and have to trust the producer. Fine for a watch costing a few bucks , but for me a few grand is problematic.....


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

JonnyOldBoy said:


> True , it just means you have less control on quality and have to trust the producer. Fine for a watch costing a few bucks , but for me a few grand is problematic.....


 There must be millions of eta, Seiko, Miyota powered watches out there, assembled by "secondary" suppliers, what's not to trust in these cases regarding quality control. For me, a watch is problematic if it unreliable in its use.


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

WRENCH said:


> There must be millions of eta, Seiko, Miyota powered watches out there, assembled by "secondary" suppliers, what's not to trust in these cases regarding quality control. For me, a watch is problematic if it unreliable in its use.


 I never said there is something "not to trust" , my point is that control is lost in out sourcing but I have not an issue with that for a sub £1000 watch... none whatsoever...


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

"airbus".....outsource to various different countries within the E.U. and assemble in Toulouse.... @WRENCH @JonnyOldBoy...... when i get on a plane... i'm not that bothered if the wings are better than the engines or airframe.... just that it gets to the destination on time....and doesn't crash into the sea..... at which point my "DOXA".... can be tested against the "SUBMARINER" on the wrist of the guy sat next to me on the plane....as we gargle our last breaths and our relatives await the results recorded on the "black box"......


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

also .... when i buy a courgette from asda/sainsbury.....i want to know it is not a genetically modified zukini....and all the profits don't go to walmart....or even worse a hard working eastern european on minimum wage picking them.....sigh....the joy of consumer choice

@WRENCH where is the guy on a bike with a stripey vest and a bunch of onions round his neck?


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

enfuseeast said:


> "airbus".....outsource to various different countries within the E.U. and assemble in Toulouse...


 Not true really is it. Airbus don't outsource to "different countries" for main component assemblies , for instance Airbus near Broughton is not an outsourced manufacturing/assembly operation , it's an Airbus manufacturing operation.


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

@JonnyOldBoy but if the wings fell off.....would Wales be responsible for "dropping the ball"?


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## vinn (Jun 14, 2015)

enfuseeast said:


> Interesting @WRENCH
> Harley Davidson had a maufacturing plant in Hiroshima in 1929...I won't ask if it's still there


 a Japanes made harley flathead 70; that would somthing to have. vin


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

enfuseeast said:


> WRENCH where﻿﻿﻿﻿ is the guy on a bike with a stripey vest and a bunch of onions round his neck?


 _ar Johniged_










These two are wearing Doxa's.


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## enfuseeast (Oct 19, 2018)

You crack me up @WRENCH
in bits here lol :laugh:


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## JayDeep (Dec 31, 2016)

WRENCH said:


> There must be millions of eta, Seiko, Miyota powered watches out there, assembled by "secondary" suppliers, what's not to trust in these cases regarding quality control. For me, a watch is problematic if it unreliable in its use.


 Exactly


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## koimaster (May 13, 2008)

JayDeep said:


> Was recently faced with a potential realization that Doxa watches aren't "Swiss made" as claimed. Some guy in another forum claimed that it's part of some watch group based and produced in China. Or at the very least definitely not Swiss.
> 
> He claimed that nobody has ever seen or been inside of the supposed Doxa Swiss factory, which was his proof of his findings.
> 
> Any thoughts or knowledge?


 Screen shots taken from walca asia site by me in 2009. After publication at watch forums the links went 404. Doxa has claimed to be swiss made but no one has ever toured their factory. Wonder why?

http://www.walca.ch/index.php?m=100&c=100

http://www.walca.ch/index.php?m=100&c=100


























Jenny Family aka Walca owns Doxa also.


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## koimaster (May 13, 2008)

https://watchlords.com/viewtopic.php?f=202&t=7798

the photos are in the link including screen shots of the original website. The links were removed less than 72 hours later after they were made public. And about that orange works best underwater.......


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Walca is a Swiss private label manufacturer owned by the Jenny family who also own the Doxa brand. As is common with many small brands Doxa are made by a private label manufacturer.

Doxa watches are assembled in Switzerland by Walca, inspected in Switzerland by Walca, have Swiss movements and a minimum of 60% of the value of components are Swiss so meet the criteria for "Swiss Made". Doxa are also on record as saying the cases for the Doxa Sub watches are also made in Switzerland and that they exceed the 60%. Walca also have a far-east factory which makes non Swiss branded watches and some components which may or may not be used in Swiss branded watches which of course they are entitled to do.

A lot of it comes from lack of knowledge of a many internet experts who think every brand has their own factory, "Doxa haven't got a factory" is a common cry. The internet page screen grabs you posted are often cited as evidence that Doxa are made in China, sorry but it isn't evidence, it's an image in the background put in by some web designer. Doxa / Walco would be foolish in the extreme to lie given the penalties for fraudulently labelling a watch as Swiss Made

Quite frankly this old chestnut was put to bed years ago by most people


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## koimaster (May 13, 2008)

JoT said:


> Walca is a Swiss private label manufacturer owned by the Jenny family who also own the Doxa brand. As is common with many small brands Doxa are made by a private label manufacturer.
> 
> Doxa watches are assembled in Switzerland by Walca, inspected in Switzerland by Walca, have Swiss movements and a minimum of 60% of the value of components are Swiss so meet the criteria for "Swiss Made". Doxa are also on record as saying the cases for the Doxa Sub watches are also made in Switzerland and that they exceed the 60%. Walca also have a far-east factory which makes non Swiss branded watches and some components which may or may not be used in Swiss branded watches which of course they are entitled to do.
> 
> ...


 Actually it has not been put to bed except by doxa fan bois. The cases are made in china, the ebauches are sent to Walca East from Switzerland and then returned to Switzerland for final assembly and inspection. That is the only way Doxa meets the Swiss made criteria. Not any different than the spin about orange dials being the best for underwater use.



> This is an easy way to conceptualize the current Swiss law, which raised the limit from 50% to 60% in 2017 - but it requires some unpacking. That line is actually only one of the four main requirements listed. In addition, a watch's movement must also be considered "Swiss," the movement must be encased in Switzerland, and the final manufacturer's inspection must take place in the country.
> 
> In perfect legalese and dotted with copious footnotes, the law goes on to qualify each and every term. What criteria, for instance, make the movement itself "Swiss?" It must be assembled and inspected in Switzerland, and 60% of its manufacturing costs generated there (50% of all movement parts' value, excluding the cost of assembly, must also be Swiss). Other elements like the case have similar provisions.
> 
> These rules are meant to be quantifiable by referring to "manufacturing costs" and "value," but these are dense terms. Manufacturing can involve a number of processes, and costs are generally much higher in Switzerland than, say, a country like China - leaving room for significant parts and labor to not be Swiss. It's no secret that many parts used in Swiss Made watches today come from China, but it's not exactly advertised, either. The parts and labor associated with producing a watch will differ significantly on a case by case basis. It's safe to say that many companies go to great lengths to comply with the "60% Rule."


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

koimaster said:


> Actually it has not been put to bed except by doxa fan bois. The cases are made in china, the ebauches are sent to Walca East from Switzerland and then returned to Switzerland for final assembly and inspection. That is the only way Doxa meets the Swiss made criteria. Not any different than the spin about orange dials being the best for underwater use.


 Yes I know Watchlords has been banging this particular conspiracy drum for years, but it is nice of you to acknowledge they do qualify as Swiss made now run along and go and play on your own forum


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

JoT said:


> Yes I know Watchlords has been banging this particular conspiracy drum for years, but it is nice of you to acknowledge they do qualify as Swiss made now run along and go and play on your own forum


 Watch makers/companies etc etc have to make money ... They also have a reputation. I would not be sucked towards a watch that had it case made in China , but I understand how price points work and how margins are achieved by outsourcing overseas the making of the more expensive agricultural parts of a watch. It's also interesting to hear how people over egg the "Swiss made" thing, as you suggest, is a qualification , not a stamp of quality per se.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

@JonnyOldBoy Exactly, Doxa and many other mid-priced brands are not 100% Swiss parts and don't claim to be. Parts like case blanks, case backs, crystals, bracelets, and packaging are likely to be outsourced and bought from where they are cheaper - they are not Rolex when all said and done. Do they still meet the Swiss Made criteria? Yes.

There's a very detailed guide to the use of Swiss Made for the anoraks amongst us

https://www.fhs.swiss/file/8/Guide_FH_v.5_en.pdf


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## KAS118 (Mar 2, 2014)

Out of curiosity @koimasterhave you any particular axe to grind against Doxa?

Just seems odd to resurrect this thread, as one of your first posts, after over a year-and-a-half?


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## JayDeep (Dec 31, 2016)

Here's what I was talking about...

Doxa China: https://www.doxa-in-asia.com/

Doxa Swiss: https://doxawatches.com


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

JayDeep said:


> Here's what I was talking about...
> 
> Doxa China: https://www.doxa-in-asia.com/
> 
> Doxa Swiss: https://doxawatches.com


 Is that Asian site legit ? or is it stolen I.P. ?


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Chinese made watches for the Chinese market, made under licence I believe, this has been going at least 12 years possibly more.

Never understood it personally but rarely seen outside Asia


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## chas g (Nov 20, 2016)

WRENCH said:


> If it's good, well made, and you like it, I wouldn't bother too much about it.
> 
> https://www.throttlexbatteries.com/throttlex-blog/where-are-harley-davidson-motorcycles-made/


 I thought Harley Davidson were part of Massey Ferguson.


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## JayDeep (Dec 31, 2016)

JonnyOldBoy said:


> Is that Asian site legit ? or is it stolen I.P. ?


 That's what I was trying to understand long ago. Still not sure, but I think it is legitimate. Just send very strange to me. The watches are completely different.


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## JonnyOldBoy (Mar 28, 2017)

Strange that a brand with kudos would tart out its brand name like that !? I always assumed the brand lines had at least some commonality ... well I guess I have learnt something new today [ apart from when you get back to the hotel room tired after 2 hours of bopping around to Human League , it's hard to tell Germoline and toothpaste tubes apart and Germoline tastes very very bad ]


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## chas g (Nov 20, 2016)

JonnyOldBoy said:


> Strange that a brand with kudos would tart out its brand name like that !? I always assumed the brand lines had at least some commonality ... well I guess I have learnt something new today [ apart from when you get back to the hotel room tired after 2 hours of bopping around to Human League , it's hard to tell Germoline and toothpaste tubes apart and Germoline tastes very very bad ]


 Don't get me started on the similarity between germaloid cream tube for treatment of asteroids and toothpaste tube. The difference soon becomes apparent if one picks up the wrong tube and applies the contents.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

JayDeep said:


> That's what I was trying to understand long ago. Still not sure, but I think it is legitimate. Just send very strange to me. The watches are completely different.


 There is an easy way to find out. I found a "Trickers" footwear site that looked suspicious, so I sent a link to the genuine manufacturers website, who confirmed by return it was not genuine and it was dealt with. Simple, but not nearly as interesting as 4 pages of supposition and counter supposition on a web forum. Honda motorcycles, for instance, have different models, manufactured in different countries with country specific websites offering models that are considered weird in other markets.

Not on sale in the UK. Indian market model.


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