# English Watchmakers...



## Shangas

Hey everyone,

I've heard of Hamilton, Waltham, Elgin, Ball etc etc...the great American pocket-watch makers.

What are some names of companies which were manufacturing watches in England? (Or at least in Europe) apart from Patek-Philippe?


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## blackandgolduk

Shangas said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I've heard of Hamilton, Waltham, Elgin, Ball etc etc...the great American pocket-watch makers.
> 
> What are some names of companies which were manufacturing watches in England? (Or at least in Europe) apart from Patek-Philippe?


Smiths were the 'big' name in British watchmaking, but Ingersoll and Timex also made watches here. I believe there were workshops in England, Scotland and Wales - does anyone know if there was ever an industry in N. Ireland or Eire?


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## mel

blackandgolduk said:


> Shangas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey everyone,
> 
> I've heard of Hamilton, Waltham, Elgin, Ball etc etc...the great American pocket-watch makers.
> 
> What are some names of companies which were manufacturing watches in England? (Or at least in Europe) apart from Patek-Philippe?
> 
> 
> 
> Smiths were the 'big' name in British watchmaking, but Ingersoll and Timex also made watches here. I believe there were workshops in England, Scotland and Wales - does anyone know if there was ever an industry in N. Ireland or Eire?
Click to expand...

Westclox, Dumbarton, Scotland, factory at Vale of Leven Industrial Estate around 1946 through to 70's. Dial usually marked Made In Scotland. Range of Pocket watches, Alarm Clocks, small range of Gents mid-size watches and ladies. Some mantel Clocks assembled. [Glen Pocketwatches also made - character watches mainly fairy tale and or Scotish themed]

Timex Dundee, Scotland, full ranges of Timex wristwatches over years in existence, early 40's through to (sort of ) mid 70's early 80's. By that time they were making Sinclair ZX 'puter range under licence, marketed in US as Timex.

Smiths, Wishaw, Lanarkshire Scotland - large factory, Alarm Clocks, Mantel Clocks, Car clocks and instruments. Some other Smiths Industries product made here also (not watch or clock related) (Sangamo Weston time switches under licence/contract)

Sangamo also had plant at Greenock making specialist time switches for Street lighting purposes. Although purely electro-mechanical, these had fixed increment/decrement delays built into the switching pattern to approximate the change of time/light throughout summer and winter. Clever for the time, these allowed the auto lighting and switch off of street lights to more closely follow the actual dawn to dusk patern of light throughout the year. (Complicated Barstewards though, and bloody hard to set up correctly :lol: )

Somebody else would need to tell you about the Anglo-Celtic connection, I don't know all of it.


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## in_denial

H. Stone in Leeds? They made a railway pocket-watch my G.Grandfather wore in 1901 (according to the hallmarks). I don't know if they made the movement or bought them in, though...

-- Tim


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## blackandgolduk

in_denial said:


> H. Stone in Leeds? They made a railway pocket-watch my G.Grandfather wore in 1901 (according to the hallmarks). I don't know if they made the movement or bought them in, though...
> 
> -- Tim


I'm sure I've seen the old H. Stone jewellers shop in Leeds, not far from the market. I think it's a restaurant/bar now, but the frontage is all original...

Has no-one mentioned a certain Roy L. Taylor of Bridlington?


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## Chascomm

Shangas said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I've heard of Hamilton, Waltham, Elgin, Ball etc etc...the great American pocket-watch makers.
> 
> What are some names of companies which were manufacturing watches in England? (Or at least in Europe) apart from Patek-Philippe?


err... I think you might have to be a bit more specific. Wearable timepieces have been made in Europe for about half a millenium. What time period did you have in mind?

Regarding watchmaking in the UK, in the period up to the beginning of the 20th Century, it is usually refered to as the 'English' watch industry. This finally petered out about 1930. In the post WWII period (or actually 1937 for Smiths), it is refered to as the 'British' watch industry; reflecting the significant enterprises in Wales and Scotland as well as England. That all went the way of the dodo around 1980ish. 'British' watchmaking was all about low-grade mass-production, except for Smith's English factory, but I'm not sure if they were making pocket-watches in that period.

Automation and parts-interchangebility came late to England so there are really no major corporate identities until a decade or so after the big American names got started (1880s or thereabouts). After that there is Benson, Williamson and a few others. Prior to that, the industry is really focussed around the top-end chronometer makers; Harrison, Graham, Arnold, Frodsham etc.


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## Chascomm

mel said:


> Somebody else would need to tell you about the Anglo-Celtic connection, I don't know all of it.


I thought you knew all that stuff!

Anglo-Celtic...

After running short of watches in WWII, the British government thought they'd better encourage some local production. At that time Smiths was the only British company making complete watches, in their factory in England. With government assistance, a consortium of Ingersoll, Smiths and Vickers-Armstrong established the Anglo-Celtic Watch Company factory at Ystradgynlais (only the Welsh could have a name like that). Vickers-Armstrong dropped out before production started in 1948. The first model was the calibre PY pocket watch, that British Ingersoll had made in London as the 'Crown' from 1905 to 1929. This was followed up by the RY and LY wristwatches. The TY replaced the RY from 1956. All of them were simple pin-lever watches. In the early 1960s, Ingersoll were wanting a more up-market product, so the 602 series of jewelled-lever calibres entered production. After a few years, Ingersoll pulled out of the Welsh operation, leaving only Smiths, who dropped the 602s in favour of casing-up Seiko automatic movements for men's watches, although some small women's watches continued to be made entirely in-house until the late 1970s. Cheap, nasty Swiss movements were used in many 'Smiths' watches in the '70s, but I'm not sure where they were made. IIRC, the venerable PY pocket-watch was the last Smiths watch to leave the Welsh factory around 1980.


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## mel

Chascomm said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Somebody else would need to tell you about the Anglo-Celtic connection, I don't know all of it.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought you knew all that stuff!
> 
> Anglo-Celtic...
> 
> After running short of watches in WWII, the British government thought they'd better encourage some local production. At that time Smiths was the only British company making complete watches, in their factory in England. With government assistance, a consortium of Ingersoll, Smiths and Vickers-Armstrong established the Anglo-Celtic Watch Company factory at Ystradgynlais (only the Welsh could have a name like that). Vickers-Armstrong dropped out before production started in 1948. The first model was the calibre PY pocket watch, that British Ingersoll had made in London as the 'Crown' from 1905 to 1929. This was followed up by the RY and LY wristwatches. The TY replaced the RY from 1956. All of them were simple pin-lever watches. In the early 1960s, Ingersoll were wanting a more up-market product, so the 602 series of jewelled-lever calibres entered production. After a few years, Ingersoll pulled out of the Welsh operation, leaving only Smiths, who dropped the 602s in favour of casing-up Seiko automatic movements for men's watches, although some small women's watches continued to be made entirely in-house until the late 1970s. Cheap, nasty Swiss movements were used in many 'Smiths' watches in the '70s, but I'm not sure where they were made. IIRC, the venerable PY pocket-watch was the last Smiths watch to leave the Welsh factory around 1980.
Click to expand...

I do now! and filed for future reference!

:lol:


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## Shangas

Sorry for not being specific enough.

I'm thinking of watches which were made in England or Europe during the 18th and 19th centuries. If, indeed, there were any.


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## acraigbennett

Shangas said:


> Sorry for not being specific enough.
> 
> I'm thinking of watches which were made in England or Europe during the 18th and 19th centuries. If, indeed, there were any.


No; there were none. if you come across one, it is a fake, send it to me for disposal...

Er, Tompion, Graham, Mudge...?

Ok, seriously, you are asking the "wrong question"; English watchmaking was a big business - the biggest in the world until the Americans and the Swiss got going around 1880 onwards, but it was a craft industry carried on by hundreds, nay thousands, of individual watch makers, who traded with each other for components and either put their names or the name of the retailer on finished watches. Swiss and French and German watch making was organised on similar lines. There are books with lists of names of English watch makers (eg Baillie and Loomes) filling hundreds of pages. It does seem that some component suppliers made large numbers of standard parts but each watch was finished individually. English and European watch makers hated the idea of factory production; they preferred the outwork system. There was a company called the Lancashire Watch Company in Prescot Lancashire through the 1890's and 1910's but most of their products have retailers names on.

In Switzerland the situation was similar - Roskopf had trouble getting his "mass production" design made and even now quality Swiss watchmaking is mainly outwork.

In England, making ebauches, making dials, hands, cases etc and finishing were all separate skilled trades, with a kind of UK head quarters in Clerkenwell, in London which was the centre of English watch and clock making, and consisted of street upon stret of watch and clock makers and suppliers.

With an English verge or lever watch, you will generally find a name on the movement and if the case is gold or silver it will for sure be hallmarked, which will give you a date of manufacture and an approximate region from the assay office (London - lion's head, Birmingham - anchor - Chester (for Liverpool and Manchester) three sheaves.

There are almost no English watches after 1914 because the individual craft makers could not compete on price with the Americans and the Swiss.


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## mrteatime

Shangas said:


> Sorry for not being specific enough.
> 
> I'm thinking of watches which were made in England or Europe during the 18th and 19th centuries. If, indeed, there were any.


i think roy was just starting out then :lol: h34r:


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## AlexR

mrteatime said:


> Shangas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for not being specific enough.
> 
> I'm thinking of watches which were made in England or Europe during the 18th and 19th centuries. If, indeed, there were any.
> 
> 
> 
> i think roy was just starting out then :lol: h34r:
Click to expand...

 :lol: :lol: Thats you marked h34r:


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## mrteatime

AlexR said:


> mrteatime said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shangas said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for not being specific enough.
> 
> I'm thinking of watches which were made in England or Europe during the 18th and 19th centuries. If, indeed, there were any.
> 
> 
> 
> i think roy was just starting out then :lol: h34r:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> :lol: :lol: Thats you marked h34r:
Click to expand...

next time im online....whats the betting i can't sign in :lol:

you password is no longer valid on this domain

:lol:


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## AlexR

:lol: :lol:


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## river rat

Here are some English pocket watches the first was made around 1812 the other around 1845 both fusee and the other is the swiss one some one said somthing about a swiss Roskopf I have tried to find info on the 2 english watches for the maker's I found the case maker on one of them and when they were made by the case mark's but england did not keep that good of records I don't think they did in the US ether on watches made totaly by hand before waltham got into the business of making watches.


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