# Fake Rolex Box



## Barreti (Apr 18, 2008)

Afternoon Gents

When some of my watches were stolen last year I was asked by the insurance company for the boxes.

Because some of the watches were found I asked for the boxes back and my insurance company, much to my disgust, have returned one of my Rolex boxes with a little message inside.

I will be calling them on Monday to demand they replace the box which they had no right to deface, but can anyone tell me if this box is genuine or what makes them think it is a fake?



IMG_5649 by Barreti, on Flickr



IMG_5648 by Barreti, on Flickr



IMG_5647 by Barreti, on Flickr



IMG_5646 by Barreti, on Flickr


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

That's absolutely disgraceful....if they thought it wasn't right, they should have put a note, on paper, in the box...with an explanation...not deface it, whether legit or not. I'm with you, and would protest most strongly.


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## kevkojak (May 14, 2009)

I think it's a good imitation of a Rolex box made by our Eastern cousins.

There are hundreds of these things out there, I think they cost about Â£20 a pop. I have seen a LOT of jewellers (including one in Manchester City Centre) try to pass these off as original boxes in order to add a grand to the value of a second hand watch.

These boxes are a very old style - discontinued in the 1980's I think. They were made from hardwood and coated in real leather and were intended for use as cigarette boxes. After smoking got a bit 'None PC' they ditched them in favour of the fully lined cushioned boxes that have been is use (in various incarnations) for the past 20 years or so.

All of these style boxes I've seen have been very faded, the wood a lovely rich orange colour that you just can't fake. These ones that look brand new like this one invariably are brand new...

Sorry.

It's a bit cheeky of LMG to even ASK for the boxes though imo. For them to have put this in a pile with the fakes suggests to me that they are selling them on and making a few quid on the side!


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## Haggis (Apr 20, 2009)

Why have you got a fake box if the watch is real?


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## tixntox (Jul 17, 2009)

If it is a fake box, I'm amazed that they sent it back at all.


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## Barreti (Apr 18, 2008)

The box came with a Datejust I bought a couple of years ago. I've posted a pic of it here I'm sure.

It's genuine. It's at Rolex now being restored after being found buried 6 months after the burglary.

LMG were looking for a fight all along about this watch before it was found. Despite am Austin Kaye certificate of authenticity they were using the box to back up their claim it must have been fake.

They've also returned the box without the cushion cover - a hankie like thing that covered the watch and cushion and defaced the box.

They will answer for this because fake or not it isn't theirs to deface.

I don't care if the box is fake, I'd just like an opinion from people I trust (that's you lot!) so I know where I stand when I start yelling at them.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2013)

This is a bit of a strange one. So you had your Rolex stolen and the insurance company asked for the boxes, why?

They have since sent them back having defaced them, why?

To my knowledge only the police or trading standards can actually seize and item they believe to be stolen or a forgery. Anyone else that must surly be for reasons to hand over to the police or lawful authority only. I am not aware of any body that is going to write "Fake" in large letters across something and I would be interested to know what power an insurance company has to do this.

Sorry but it just seems there is a bit more to this.


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## kevkojak (May 14, 2009)

LMG are one of the biggest jewellery and watch insurers in the country - they handle a lot of claims passed down from other insurers and while they can be (ok, the ARE!) a pain in the bum to deal with, they seriously know their stuff.

It's sad, but in this day and age they need to be able to establish that the watch actually existed - preferably from proof of purchase (a receipt) or the original box/papers/other provenance.

Also, the easiest way to assess the value of a stolen watch is from a receipt (within 5 years preferably) so they can establish the exact model and gauge a like-for-like replacement.

If a receipt isn't available then box and paperwork both give the model details AND assure them that the watch was real.

Unfortunately, in this case the box was a knock-off, possibly bought in to add a premium to the watch (lets say it turns a loose Â£1500 date-just to a 'full set' with Â£2500 ticket price...)

Personally if that was me I'd be back at the shop I bought the watch from playing holy HELL!

The fact that there is a question mark over the box meant that to the insurance company, there was a question mark over the whole watch.

Fortunately - since they paid out - it's clear Barretti was able to pacify them, and thank goodness! (luckily it's easy to do with credit card receipts, valuations...even a photo of yourself wearing the watch will often do).

LMG are a bit naughty for retaining and then marking the box, but they deal with thousands of Rolex claims every year and I promise you they know their stuff. Lets say though that it had gone to Rolex for 'verification' - it would now be a pile of splinters big enough to use as toothpicks.

The blame here lies with the shop that sold the Rolex - they either have no clue what they're dealing with and therefore should be giving Rolex a wide berth, or they knew exactly what they were doing and bought a grey market box to pull more money out of the watch. (My money is on the latter, I've seen it too many times).

When I worked for a Rolex AD in 2010 we quizzed the Rolex rep on these boxes and all he would say is that they were looking into several legal avenues (?) and trying to cut off the source.

Yeah? Great job Rolex... 

So Barreti, you have every right to be upset with LMG but I sincerely doubt you'll get much joy out of them. At best they might return the cushion, at worst they might put your mind at ease - request the box back from you and send it to Rolex for some sort of authentication.

The real villain here is the Rolex seller (or possibly whoever he bought it from).

Sorry mate, I'm not trying to side with the insurance company, I've had dealings with them within the industry and they can be a waste of space sometimes.

Why they would KEEP the box I'm unsure of, unless it was simply because it wasn't correct or they have a nice sideline selling boxes on the side! :lol:


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## pugster (Nov 22, 2004)

Well most of my watches are bought on forums so no reciepts, they are also kept in the boxes they came with , if someones going to nick them i guess they will just pick the boxes up- in which case with no receipt or boxes the insurance company would pull a fast one on me :/


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## PCthug (Jan 13, 2013)

Strange one really.

Looking at it one way, Its criminal damage, simple.

Looking at it another way, if it is counterfeit then surely they would have been able to retain it or have it destroyed.

Do 2 wrongs make a right in this instance? I don't know.


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## Markrlondon (Feb 20, 2009)

PCthug said:


> Looking at it another way, if it is counterfeit then surely they would have been able to retain it or have it destroyed.


I am not a lawyer but to the best of my knowledge, no private organisation has any automatic legal right to seize or destroy someone else's property without the owner's permission in the UK, not even if it is thought to be fake. Even Rolex could not legally do so for a fake Rolex box or a fake Rolex watch. Stories of dealers seizing allegedly fake watches are either apocryphal or, if true, the dealer did not act lawfully. (Laws in other countries may differ, of course).

As robert75 said above, only the police or local trading standards can usually size or destroy fake items and, even then, they must prove their case to destroy items.

In this case it does not necessarily surprise me that the insurance company asked for the boxes: If the insurer was paying out for the value of the stolen watches *including* the uplift in value that the boxes provide to luxury watches, then it is reasonable that they would want the boxes since the boxes would become the property of the insurer once they paid out. However, if the insurer was *not* paying out for the value of the boxes (and only wanted to see the boxes to verify the genuine nature of the watches) then there was no reason for them to retain them and definitely no lawful excuse for them to deface them, even if they are fake.

Sadly, even though Barreti might have a legitimate claim against the insurer for defacing the box, if it is a fake then the value of the box is so low then it's not worth pursuing. But, whether or not it is worth pursuing in financial terms, the insurer should not have defaced someone else's property, no matter what.


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## PCthug (Jan 13, 2013)

Markrlondon said:


> PCthug said:
> 
> 
> > Looking at it another way, if it is counterfeit then surely they would have been able to retain it or have it destroyed.
> ...


Try paying for an item with a fake Â£20 note or credit card and see what the shop does.

The will 99/100 times keep hold of it.

I do agree that the police can destroy items (as can other organisations like the trading standards), but I believe other organisations (like shops etc) can act as representatives on their behalf and retain them to hand over to the authorities.

It would probably fall under the 'any person' powers.

Regardless of value, criminal damage is criminal damage and the police wouldn't treat it any differently if it was the box or the watch itself.


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## Markrlondon (Feb 20, 2009)

PCthug said:


> Try paying for an item with a fake Â£20 note or credit card and see what the shop does.
> 
> The will 99/100 times keep hold of it.


It is important to understand that what you are referring to here is a wholly different scenario to the one in question in this thread.

Mere possession of counterfeit currency is a crime as I understand it and trying to pay for something with a fake bank note is certainly a crime. Possession of an (allegedly) fake product such as a watch or watch box, on the other hand, is *not*, in and of itself, a crime in the UK and, to the best of my knowledge, no private individual or business can legally seize or destroy someone else's property at will (even if they think it's fake)! The fact that it is allegedly counterfeit is neither here nor there in general.



PCthug said:


> but I believe other organisations (like shops etc) can act as representatives on their behalf and retain them to hand over to the authorities.


For fake currency: Yes, of course. For others items such as watches or watch boxes: No, not legally. Different things, different laws.

**edit**

As I said before, I am not a lawyer. All of the above is only my understanding of the situation. Nevertheless, I am pretty sure that there are no legal grounds in the UK (at least in the context of this discussion) for any business or individual to seize, retain, danage or destroy someone else's non-currency property without the permission of its owner. The fact that such property is or appears to be counterfeit is irrelevant.


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## Pob (May 28, 2010)

PCthug said:


> Try paying for an item with a fake Â£20 note or credit card and see what the shop does.
> 
> The will 99/100 times keep hold of it.


Only if you let them get away with it. I just demand mine back, and take them into the bank where it came from.

Shops have no right to seize your money without compensation........would you trust a fourteen year old check-out girl to know a fake from a real one?

...and another thing, what does it matter if the box is fake anyway......who cares about the box.......or am I missing something? :huh:


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## PCthug (Jan 13, 2013)

Markrlondon said:


> It is important to understand that what you are referring to here is a wholly different scenario to the one in question in this thread.
> 
> Mere possession of counterfeit currency is a crime as I understand it and trying to pay for something with a fake bank note is certainly a crime. Possession of an (allegedly) fake product such as a watch or watch box, on the other hand, is *not*, in and of itself, a crime in the UK and, to the best of my knowledge, no private individual or business can legally seize or destroy someone else's property at will (even if they think it's fake)! The fact that it is allegedly counterfeit is neither here nor there in general.


Yes I know I was just being pedantic 



Markrlondon said:


> PCthug said:
> 
> 
> > but I believe other organisations (like shops etc) can act as representatives on their behalf and retain them to hand over to the authorities.
> ...


Correct, and as I said, a clear case of criminal damage.

Whether it would go anywhere at court is another matter due to it being a counterfeit item.

Possession may only come into play when you are trying to pass it off as the real deal or trying to sell such item.

I don't know a great deal about counterfeit laws myself, especially when it comes to what members of the public can/cant do (unless it comes under deception). I do however know that police etc can seize items.


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## PCthug (Jan 13, 2013)

Pob said:


> PCthug said:
> 
> 
> > Try paying for an item with a fake Â£20 note or credit card and see what the shop does.
> ...


That's why I said 99/100 times.


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## Pob (May 28, 2010)

PCthug said:


> Pob said:
> 
> 
> > PCthug said:
> ...


I'm usually Mr.Angry by the time I reach the till anyway.... 

It should be left to the ladies to do the shopping...... :yes:


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## RTM Boy (Jun 1, 2011)

Sorry Barreti, it's a counterfeit box. Kev's alsolutely right about why the insurers wanted the boxes. The scrawl was probably done to prevent the box being passed off as genuine...again... And if it had gone to Rolex it would indeed be in a landfill site by now. Being a fake box it has virtually no value anyway.

The owner of the copyright being breached by the counterfeit can legally retain and destroy the items - as indeed can customs officers, trading standards officers and the police. So, to give an alternative example, a counterfeit Royal Crown Derby plate for example sent to RCD for verification would be retained and probably destroyed by RCD because it owns the copyright to its name and designs. You'd get a letter explaining the counterfeit status and your rights, such as they are. The plate would be worthless to you anyway because as a fake it's worthless and selling it as genuine is a criminal offence. The same is true of a watch box with a trademark on it.

Clearly your treatment by the insurers and LMG could have been more sensitive, to say the least, but your beef is really with the jewellers you bought your Datejust from as they supplied the box with it. They might claim they couldn't tell the box was counterfeit, but IMHO they should have reasonably known the box to be counterfeit (it's pretty obvious from the photos) and therefore are not only liable to you but have also potentially commited a criminal offence by selling it as genuine.

Your financial loss from defacing the counterfeit box and the missing cloth would be negligible - less the cost of the 'phone call to complain about it...


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2013)

All seems a bit odd. Perhaps the OP could clarify what exactly has gone on.


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## Barreti (Apr 18, 2008)

There isn't anything odd and no ulterior motives Robert75

But here is a potted history

I bought the watch 2 years ago from a forum.

It came with this box and a certificate of authenticity.

Last year the watch was stolen along with most of my collection.

The idiot left all the boxes and papers behind though.

The insurance co were due to replace the watches so asked for the boxes and paperwork. A legitimate request I thought since they were replacing the watches with new so could ask for everything relating to them as the new 'owner'

So I duly sent the boxes off.

Then earlier this year 5 of the watches were found buried by a police officer. They were under a hedge loosely covered in earth.

I got the watches back and the insurance co agreed to pay for them to be sent off for repair.

The watches were duly handed to Goldsmiths to send off. I've had a Tag and an Omega back already.

The Datejust and an Air King were sent to Rolex who have priced the repairs and are working on them now.

Since they priced the repairs first and they are due back any day I think there is little doubt the Datejust is legitimate.

Because I am now having the watches back, instead of them being replaced, I asked for the boxes and paperwork back.

I received them on Saturday, with the Rolex box defaced and all the Tag paperwork and warranty cards missing.

There you have it.

And my inside keg measurement is 31"

Had the box been legitimate I would have insisted it was replaced. But I wouldn't know a fake watch box from a Ffyfes banana box, so I asked on here.

But LMG are a bunch of idiots, and I say this with authority because of the way they've dealt with our claim. Honestly, you couldn't make up some of the things they've done and asked.

Consequently i have no respect for their opinions on the weather, let alone the authenticity of a 20yr old box.

If someone in authority wanted to destroy it, i would have expected them to contact me, explain the situation and get my permission to pass the box to them. it would have been destroyed and I would have a receipt and no questions.

But they didnt mention anything. Just sent it back as photographed.

I will demand an apology, because when all said and done, regardless of its history and provenance it is my property not theirs, and you cant just deface someone else's property in my opinion.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2013)

You asked us a question on a general forum, without us knowing what has actually happened leading up to it nobody here can give any kind of detailed response. If you wish to take that as some kind of personal slight on you that's really your problem.

I have never heard of a company viewing something as counterfeit so defacing it and returning it to an owner. If someone walked into a jewellers to get a watch serviced and the jeweller found it to be fake I doubt they would carve the words "Fake" Across the dial and return it to the owner presumably they would contact the police or trading standards who would seize it. Even then they are not going to return a counterfeit item rather it would be destroyed.

The fact that you have had your watch boxes defaced in this way therefore is strange to say the least. No use trying to have a go at me perhaps you should take it out on the person who sold you the Rolex boxes in the first place.

No idea what an inside keg is though.....


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## RTM Boy (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm not trying to defend LMG or your insurers, but it is just possible that given the time elapsed since the theft and depending on exactly how far down the insurance payout line the whole process has gone, it might reasonably have been assumed that the watches would not be recovered and therefore with a payout due (?) the boxes would have become the property of the insurer and would not have been returned. If that was the presumption, LMG would have believed it would be returning the boxes to the insurer, and not Barreti, and so marked the Rolex one accordingly as counterfeit.

Given that it's a fake, personally I wouldn't have expected the Rolex box to be returned at all.

Clearly, the paperwork should have been returned. They probably lost it.

Barreti, if it were me, I'd focus on getting the paperwork problem sorted out, which IMHO is far more important than a counterfeit Rolex box.

Good luck with it and let us know the outcome.


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## Barreti (Apr 18, 2008)

Robert75' I wasn't having a go at you but youve asked a couple of times for details so i thought i would give you the history. If I gave you the impression I was having a go i apologise.

And an inside keg is my stupid iPad auto spell correct !

RTM Boy, I agree with everything you say. But I am still pissed about the box, but then I am known for being grumpy ;-)


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## Haggis (Apr 20, 2009)

Oh dear! We feel your pain. I hope everything works out to your benefit, good luck.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2013)

Barreti said:


> Robert75' I wasn't having a go at you but youve asked a couple of times for details so i thought i would give you the history. If I gave you the impression I was having a go i apologise.
> 
> And an inside keg is my stupid iPad auto spell correct !
> 
> RTM Boy, I agree with everything you say. But I am still pissed about the box, but then I am known for being grumpy ;-)


Don't worry about it mate I just couldn't figure out why your insurers would do such an odd thing but RTM makes a good point. I do think you have a valid issue with whoever sold you the watches though but the insurance company do also have some valid questions to answer.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## PCthug (Jan 13, 2013)

As already said, I would be FAR more concerned about the paperwork.

Ok, the box is fake and has been defaced, but the (watch) and associated paperwork were legit, so why should they keep hold of that?

If you sent it in a plastic bag and wrote Rolex on it would they still keep the paperwork?

That is a completely separate issue to the box in my opinion.

I cant get overly defensive about the box as it has now stopped some other unsuspecting person from buying it as the real deal.


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## Haggis (Apr 20, 2009)

,

http://www.swissinfo...ml?cid=33043926


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## Markrlondon (Feb 20, 2009)

RTM Boy said:


> The owner of the copyright being breached by the counterfeit can legally retain and destroy the items


To the best of my knowledge that is *not* the case in the UK (at least not on their own and not without having to prove their case). If you believe otherwise, can you provide a reference to the statute(s) under which this is allowed?



RTM Boy said:


> So, to give an alternative example, a counterfeit Royal Crown Derby plate for example sent to RCD for verification would be retained and probably destroyed by RCD because it owns the copyright to its name and designs.


There is no "copyright" in the UK in a name or design. Are you referring to a trademark or registered design?

Even though someone may well own some kind of intellectual property (e.g. a copyright, a trademark or a registered design), it does not necessarily follow that that person can legally in the UK seize, damage, or destroy someone else's physical property allegedly bearing their intellectual property, at least not without the physical property owner's permission or without the cooperation of authorities legally empowered to seize or destroy such goods. Unless, that is, you can provide references which suggest otherwise?

**edit**

Just to clarify, I am *not* a lawyer and I am not aiming to somehow prove RTM Boy wrong. He could well be right! But I'd like to know what the statute is that allegedly allows this kind of seizure and destruction by private individuals or businesses of other people's private property without permission, without needing to prove a case in court or gain support from other legally authorised bodies.


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## Dick Browne (Dec 16, 2008)

Slightly different perspective here, but if they had paid out on the watch (and I'm not sure if they had as they have now agreed to pay for repair) would the watchbox, as a part of the original packaging of the watch, become their property?

My wife had her car stolen a few years back and the insurance company wanted all mot's, service record, keys, everything...


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## Haggis (Apr 20, 2009)

I would never buy a second hand watch from a shop, for all you know the watch has been re polished and faked up to look like a safe queen, then stuck into a fake box. Where you pay top dollar.


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## RTM Boy (Jun 1, 2011)

Marklondon, if you send what turns out to be a counterfeit watch or watch box - or plate for that matter - to the manufacturer/owner of the trademark or other IP rights, I can guarantee that it will be retained by them. If you want to argue the point with them, you will probably find the police/trading standards/customs at your door wanting to know where you got the item from because manufacturers work closely with them to seize counterfeit goods. The manufacturer needs to have the goods verified as counterfeit whoever seizes them and normally obtains a court order to destroy them.

There are a range of criminal and civil sanctions that can be brought for what is infringement of intellectual property (IP) resulting from counterfeiting. The main pieces of legislation are;


Trade Mark Act 1994

Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988

Goods Infringing Intellectual Property Rights (Customs) Regulations 2004

Counterfeit and Commission Regulation (EC) No 1172/2007.




Dick Browne said:


> Slightly different perspective here, but if they had paid out on the watch (and I'm not sure if they had as they have now agreed to pay for repair) would the watchbox, as a part of the original packaging of the watch, become their property?
> 
> My wife had her car stolen a few years back and the insurance company wanted all mot's, service record, keys, everything...


If the insurers had paid out as a loss, everything they paid out for would become their property - including the counterfeit box.


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## Markrlondon (Feb 20, 2009)

RTM Boy said:


> Marklondon, if you send what turns out to be a counterfeit watch or watch box - or plate for that matter - to the manufacturer/owner of the trademark or other IP rights, I can guarantee that it will be retained by them.


And I am saying that in the UK this will, to the best of my knowledge, be unlawful if they do it without permission of the owner. If you know differently, please provide references to the legislation that allows it (the references you provide below do not provide for such an action by an alleged intellectual rights owner, to the best of my knowledge).

The fact that the company owns the intellectual property used by the allegedly conterfeit item is neither here nor there -- they simply cannot (lawfully) seize an item of physical property that does not belong to them without the owner's permission regardless of the intellectual property issues (to the best of my knowledge).



RTM Boy said:


> If you want to argue the point with themyp


I'm arguing it with you: Specifically I am asking you to provide evidence for its legality. I.e. Reference to the legislation that would legalise it.

Note that, as I understand it, 'retaining' or seizing someone's property without their permission in this scenario would not be 'theft' as that would require an element of criminal intent but it is certainly, to the best of my knowlege, unlawful and would make the retaining company liable for its value (which is most certainly not necessarily zero, even for a counterfeit item).



RTM Boy said:


> You will probably find the police/trading standards/customs at your door wanting to know where you got the item from because manufacturers work closely with them to seize counterfeit goods.


It is not in the slightest bit illegal in the UK to own a counterfeit item.

Whilst it is illegal to trade in such items, owning such an item is legal.

Again, this is to the best of my knowledge. If you know better, please provide references.

If I sent a an allegedly counterfeit item (alleged by the manufacturer) to a manufacturer and they retained it and the police or trading standards arrived at my door, I'd happily tell them where I bought the item safe in the knowledge that I had commited so crime and I'd also enquire as to when my legally owned property would be returned.



RTM Boy said:


> the manufacturer needs to have the goods verified as counterfeit whoever seizes them and normally obtains a court order to destroy them.


Quite so. This does not mean that a manufacturer, acting on their own authority, can legally or lawfully seize someone's goods, counterfeit or not, without permission of the owner.



RTM Boy said:


> There are a range of criminal and civil sanctions that can be brought for what is infringement of intellectual property (IP) resulting from counterfeiting. The main pieces of legislation are;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely. However, it is important to remember that we are not discussing the act of counterfeiting or penalties for counterfeiting here. That is not the issue at hand.

The issue at hand is one of seizure of, damage to, or destruction of private property without lawful authority. Do any of the Acts or Regulations you referred to above allow anyone other than a very lmited set of authorities to seize or destroy property without the owner's permission? According to my current knowlege, they do *not*. I am not aware of any provisions for the owners of intellectual property used by allegedly counterfeit items owned by other people to have special legal privileges over those items without the permission of the owner of the items.

For example, a manufacturer may say that "if you send us an item and it turns out to be counterfeit in our opinion then we will sezie it" then, if the owner sends the item to the manufacturer and the manufacturer seizes it, this is lawful. The owner has agreed to the terms. However, if the owner did not agree to any such terms, then seizure by the manufacturer has no legal basis (again, to be clear, to the best of my knowledge). Can you provide reference to legislation that says otherwise? The legislation you quoted before does not appear to say otherwise.


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## Markrlondon (Feb 20, 2009)

Dick Browne said:


> Slightly different perspective here, but if they had paid out on the watch (and I'm not sure if they had as they have now agreed to pay for repair) would the watchbox, as a part of the original packaging of the watch, become their property?


If they paid out for the uplift in value that original boxes would have given to the watches (or, presumably, if they paid out on a brand new like or like basis) then the boxes would belong to them.

If, on the other hand, they did not take the boxes into consideration when paying out (i.e. if they paid out only for the second hand replacement value of the watches without boxes) then I see no reason for the boxes to belong to them.

In other words, I think it depends on exactly what the policy said and what the payout was for.


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## RTM Boy (Jun 1, 2011)

Markrlondon you clearly like to apply your own personal interpretation of how the law works - which is absolutely fine since common law is based on precedent and opinion as much as it is on the letter of legislation. I do not have to prove any of what I have said to you, anymore than you have to prove your opinions to me.

In the UK the owner of the IP - in this case Rolex - has the right to seize counterfeit goods bearing its IP (eg trademark) because it is in effect theft of its IP. Yes, it is not a criminal offence to simple own or possess a counterfeit product in itself, but if you pass through customs with it, or attempt to sell it, or are believed to be selling or trading it, or in any way to present it as genuine (as in an insurance claim) when you should reasonably know it to be counterfeit, that is fraud. That's a criminal offence. In fact IP owners issue watch instructions (as in to look out for) to the Police, Customs and Trading Standards telling them to seize counterfeit items on behalf of the IP owner. The IP owner then has a limited time to inspect the seized items to confirm that they are counterfeit. This can be applied to anyone possessing a counterfeit item, should the IP owner, or any public body operating on its intructions, find a counterfeit good.

If you yourself send a counterfeit item to the IP owner - eg send a fake Rolex to Rolex for servicing - it will not be returned. Fact. Neither the IP owner, nor the Police, nor customs, nor Trading Standards operating on behalf of the IP owner, require the permission of the owner of the counterfeit goods to seize them. If they turn out to be genuine they will be returned. If not, depending on the circumstances you may be liable to criminal and/or civil action. The actual destruction of counterfeit items will nearly always require a court order, but the IP owner can retain the counterfeit item without the need for a court order.

I care not if you believe me, you can consult the extensive legislation I mentioned before and I have no intention of reproducing hundreds of pages, or examples of case law, in an attempt to convince you. Since you don't believe me, why not find out for yourself? If you happen to have, or come across, a counterfeit watch, send it to the manufacturer for a service and see what happens. Enjoy.

And as for who owns the boxes if an insurance payout takes place, in the UK it is fairly certain that any Rolex would need to be specified on a typical home contents policy for it to be covered by that policy - certainly if it is worth more than the underwriter's maximum individual item value limit for valuables. The fact that the insurers asked for the box and a box was supplied by the policy holder demonstrates that for the purpose of the claim the box existed and so would be deemed to be part and parcel of the insured item. Normally any specified item description of the Rolex would be expected to include it's serial number, and mention of being c/w the box and papers - if they exist - although once again each insurer has its own approach to this. In most cases under typical underwriting rules, irrespective of whether the box was genuine or counterfeit and irrespective of the value of the box, after a payout it would become the property of the insurer.

Bon soir.


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