# New Arrival - What? Me Buy A Rolex Sub Clone?



## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Ok so I dont like Rolex Submariner clones.... I only said it'd be churlish to mention that you should buy the real thing the once and Ian has never let me forget it.... so what the hell am I doing buying a Sub clone??!?























Well I was thinking about it and reasoned I needed a sub clone as a beater.... but not only do i dislike copies I also knew if I bought a Marecello, Grovana, O&W, Sandoz or any of the others you lot'd come down on me like a ton o bricks.... So I decided to buy the only approved Rolex sub clone out there... one made by Rolex - The Tudor Submariner. I also decided that I didnt want one with Mercedes hands (too Rolex'y) so it had to be the Snoflake hands model.... with the blue dial... it took many months and false starts to locate one I wanted for the right price... these are a bit thin on the ground it seems.











This one harks from 1968 - the case back reads "IV 68" - which translates as 4th quarter 1968. It is a 7021/0 case and the serial number ties it to 1968 as well - although thats not an exact science it helps in the verification (as does having the right age movt etc). The case has drilled lugs (like all good tool dive watches should!) and is very close to the early Rolex subs in design and build. Ive read these cases are in 316L SS and not the grade Rolex used for their cases... I can only assume this helped save cost, but it seems hardly worth the effort... you can tell im not an accountant!









Its got the blue dial and bezel and snoflake hands that were mil spec but could also be ordered on the civilian model. It got a nice solid square acrylic crystal with cyclops and the friction bezel is bi-directional. The date alternates between red and black on alternate days - im not sure why... anyone know? The base ETA cal is a 2484 and im not sure what 'extras' Tudor added to this cal but its likley they changed the shock protection and a quick engrave of the Tudor name and thats all.

So whats good about it - well its comfortable and well made, has a large easy to grip crown and looks just enough different to the Rolex it apes. Whats bad? well not much really... Yeah, sure id like it to be bigger (its approx 40mm excl crown), but its a late 60's watch so is a good size for a vintage piece.



Interestingly side by side with the Omega SM300 you can see how much larger the Omega is - it must have been seen as massive at the time! (although most of it is a trick of the design). The Omega is only a little wider (43mm excl crown) but looks to have a much larger dial area and the Omegas flat bezel makes it feel much wider. The Tudor bezel is off the edge of the case @ 9 and is quite thin and pointy where you grip it as opposed to the Omega's squarer bezel edge - if anything the Tudors is easier to grip as it pushes into your skin/glove better with the sharper edge.



All in all a great watch. It will go off to Rolex soon for a fulll refresh as the hands and dial are now lume less and it could do with a service soon.


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## hakim (Sep 13, 2004)

WOW, Congrats Jon! Fab watch!

Looks in great condition too!

Yup, my favourite "sub clone"too!


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## greyowl (Jun 7, 2006)

Really Nice


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

Looks great.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

I think its very nice indeed, I much prefer the hands on this Tudor, shame about the cyclops though







, did this come in a no date version?


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

JonW said:


> Ok so I dont like Rolex Submariner clones.... I only said it'd be churlish to mention that you should buy the real thing the once and Ian has never let me forget it.... so what the hell am I doing buying a Sub clone??!?


This is cheating







.

You're no fun at all Jon







.

Like Jason, I prefer the hands and I may just favour it over the Omega







.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

hakim said:


> WOW, Congrats Jon! Fab watch!
> 
> Looks in great condition too!
> 
> Yup, my favourite "sub clone"too!


Thanks Hakim - I appreciate that comming from you. I'll keep an eye out for one for you, prepare to flip the 'other' clone... 



greyowl said:


> Really Nice


Cheers M8!



potz said:


> That is really nice, Jon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I also have a GMT2 - there are quite a few on the forum actually. I love it (and will never sell it - it has sentimental value etc) but sometimes you just need something less obvious. Airkings and Tudor Subs can be had in the Sub Â£600 bracket atm if you look hard enough but beware of fakes and puttogthers.



Russ said:


> Looks great.


Cheers M8!



jasonm said:


> I think its very nice indeed, I much prefer the hands on this Tudor, shame about the cyclops though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol - yes it does... ISTR all the mil ones are non date - but dont believe the decommisioning paperwork that comes with them as quite a bit of it is faked now... sadly.



raketakat said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > Ok so I dont like Rolex Submariner clones.... I only said it'd be churlish to mention that you should buy the real thing the once and Ian has never let me forget it.... so what the hell am I doing buying a Sub clone??!?
> ...


Ahhh Ian... what can I say....























Im not sure I prefer it over the Omega... the Tudor's classic shape is perhaps a bit overdone these days which gives the Omega the edge... perhaps.... I will compare it to a 5513 when Im next in the local watch shop and see how well the case compares... they love me coming in!


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## Ironpants (Jul 1, 2005)

A Tudor Sub as a beater







I wouldn't give you hassle if you got a MarcelloC sub clone Jon 

I have to say that hour hand looks awful. There I've said it.

Now the rest of the watch looks great, I especially like the face, looks lurvely in blue.

Congratulations









Toby


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Ironpants said:


> A Tudor Sub as a beater
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Toby... I was kinda joking about the beater thing - I mentioned in another thread (when I sold my vostok maybe?) that I just dont do the beater thing... I just take my watch off....

I love the hour hand, it and he secs hand make the watch for me.









Its the first watch Ive had with a blue dial... its a strange grey/blue and I know these fade over the years to be more grey than blue...

Cheers mate!


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## hakim (Sep 13, 2004)

> JonW Posted Today, 09:06 AM
> 
> Thanks Hakim - I appreciate that comming from you. I'll keep an eye out for one for you, prepare to flip the 'other' clone...


Thanks Jon!


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## foztex (Nov 6, 2005)

Nice one Jon, I think I prefer that to a Rolex. Those hands look a bit Citizen-ish to me though 









Andy


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Very nice John, but why do you (or Rolex







) call it a snowflake hand? It's clear to me it's a square at 45 degrees (a snowflake has 6 points)


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

foztex said:


> Nice one Jon, I think I prefer that to a Rolex. Those hands look a bit Citizen-ish to me though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes Ive seen some Omega/Rekord hands in the sales forum that might upgrade it... 



pg tips said:


> Very nice John, but why do you (or Rolex
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dunno mate... your description is bang on tho - thats why it matches the seconds hand. I just used the name Rolex and the forums use.... Its probably too late to get the name changed to 'post it note hands' or something similar tho...


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## cricketer (Sep 27, 2004)

Very nice Jon, I've been looking for one of those...maybe one day


















Alan


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## PhilM (Nov 5, 2004)

Nice find Chris 

So this one on the way as well as Roy's new diver, does anything have to be flipped


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## PhilM (Nov 5, 2004)

No I was saving for something myself but Roy's new divers has got in the way









Might have to get rid of a one or two as I still really want a RLT24


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## foztex (Nov 6, 2005)

potz said:


> jasonm said:
> 
> 
> > I think its very nice indeed, I much prefer the hands on this Tudor, shame about the cyclops though
> ...


Very nice Chris, they are getting like busses (  Jon ) wait forever then......

Andy


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Thats 'the lick' Chris









I love that one, well done


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## 8.32 (Aug 25, 2005)

Very nice. One of the few regrets I have watchwise is letting my cal 390 Tudor Sub go. sigh...

Still have an Oyster Prince 34 but it's not the same.


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

I dunno.......I like the case style etc....but those hands, specifically the hour hand







not too keen on that......then again I hate the merc hands as well.....but love the broadsword hands of the SM200, if only the minute hand matched, bit of a wierd combination that, to me anyway!









I like your style though Jon......no really.....gotta be your beater 

Best regards David


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## JohnFraininthe93rd (Jul 4, 2006)

That's a superb price for a full size Tudor Submariner, I've seen them go for 3 times as much from sellers in Japan / Singapore. I'll have to keep a close eye on ebay.de in future!!

Well done!

.............................................................................................................

Hang on, I've just found a much cheaper one, looks like you were robbed! 









"MINT SUBMARINER"


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Nice one Jon, well done









I`ve prefered the look of these to the Rolex sub since I first saw an example and have considered buying one but they have always been outside my price range and there`s also always something else to tempt me


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## TikTok (Mar 26, 2006)

Very nice.I've never seen one of those before.wear it well


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Cheers again guys for all the kind words.

Chris - brilliant score mate for that money.... mine was, well, lets just say... a bit more.







They look great on Nato - I had mine on a light grey and then on a tan/olivedrab looking two piece - sadly it wasnt really comfy on those tho...









Andy - Ahh well at least ive started a new trend! 

David - I wore it when repainting the 7's grille yesterday....


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## Steven1 (Dec 19, 2005)

Hi

I hate to be the one to tell you this but it looks to be a fake. I hope you can return it to the seller for a full refund.


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## Nalu (Nov 28, 2003)

Steven1 said:


> Hi
> 
> I hate to be the one to tell you this but it looks to be a fake. I hope you can return it to the seller for a full refund.


Interesting first post









Do you have anything to back that up Steven? Like facts (i.e. hallmarks of a fake)?

Nice watches, Chris and Jon. I go through phases about the snowflake hands, but just now it's







I do somewhat prefer the no-date version however. The dark blue-gray of this dial is quite handsome, very well done the both of youse!


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Thanks Colin - Yes Steven - what makes you say this and are you referring to mine or Chris' watch?

Mine is off to Rolex on Monday so Im guessing they will tell me for sure, but id still like to know what makes you say this is a fake.


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## Steven1 (Dec 19, 2005)

JonW said:


> Thanks Colin - Yes Steven - what makes you say this and are you referring to mine or Chris' watch?
> 
> Mine is off to Rolex on Monday so Im guessing they will tell me for sure, but id still like to know what makes you say this is a fake.


That was meant for Chris. Sorry I didn't make the quote appear in the previous post. Yours looks genuine Jon.

if you look at photos of Chris's model and compare it to the other 2 photos in this thread , you can see right away how the hands are not the right shape. the case is not shaped correctly too. this is especially clear from the side view. caseback may look ok at a glance, but that engraving is not deep enough to be genuine.

I didn't realize I never posted here before. I was registered. I must have been doing a search on some watches







was just looking at some posts and it hurt me to see someone was cheated this way so I felt like I should say something.

Chris, if you already have the watch, you can take to a Rolex Service Center and ask them to take a look at it. they would refuse to service anything that is not completely genuine.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Chris , if you havent paid for it yet then maybe youve had a lucky escape, I know a few people are uneasy about this one, I personally havent a clue, dont worry about ebay negative comments, its not worth all that money just to keep ebay happy!!!!

Thanks Steve for posting your thoughts


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Hi Steven - Thanks for clarifying that for us, you have a keen eye for the details on these - I assume youve some experience of these watches and are a collector? Ive looked at what you pointed out and see where youre coming from - far more detail than Ive been using to sift the fakes from the genuine article but along the same lines which is reassuring. Sadly there isnt much in the way of hard reference material for these on the net and Tudor did lot of different models.









Since your comments earlier Chris and I have chatted about these watches and looked at the inconsistencies between them and I think we both agree theyre too many doubts about it at this time - shame as it would have been great value.

Chris - Dont pay - I will drop you an PM about how to deal with ebay etc.


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## Steven1 (Dec 19, 2005)

Glad to hear no money changed hands yet.









It's not easy to tell these Tudors from fakes sometimes, but this one was actually pretty obvious to be honest. I've had a few of these and looked at way too many pictures of others







so maybe it seems easy to me.

here's a useful table with Reference numbers and specs:

http://masasima.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mywatch/rolexspec.htm

old Tudor catalog with pictures:

http://home.xnet.com/~cmaddox/tudor/catalo...or_catalog.html

high resolution of many diver watches including Tudors and Rolex

http://www.scubawatch.org/

good luck


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Dunno Chris









Jon will be on around midnight









Steve1 where are you?


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## foztex (Nov 6, 2005)

I'm not even remotely knowledgeable about this Chris. But after what Steve pointed out, that one has the same too long hands. Second hand diamond over the hour markers and the hour hand tip closer than one hour marker width away from the markers. Not accepting Paypal rings alarms with me as well.

It looks very similar to your current problem.

cheers and best of luck in your search,

Andy


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Yeah, I should of noticed that, no Paypal means very little chance of any come back...











potz said:


> Cheers Jason.
> 
> Man am I glad that the Seiko SKXA35 I'm wearing right now and which I bought from Roy is the real McCoy.
> 
> There's nothing like hassle-free shopping from a reliable dealer


Aint that the truth!!!!!


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## foztex (Nov 6, 2005)

potz said:


> foztex said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not even remotely knowledgeable about this Chris. But after what Steve pointed out, that one has the same too long hands. Second hand diamond over the hour markers and the hour hand tip closer than one hour marker width away from the markers. Not accepting Paypal rings alarms with me as well.
> ...


Its a worry isn't it. The seller seems to have good form and certainly does not appear to be a fly-by-night merchant. They've sold 2 seamaster 300s $340 dollars each, bargain. No pics unfortunately.

as the hands seem too big, is the case size right or is it too small, or did another Tudor exist with the same hands that could be re-dialled?

Hopefully Steve can provide some ideas.

Cheers

Andy


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## Steven1 (Dec 19, 2005)

You're welcome









all is well that ends well, eh? 



potz said:


> Is this a fake, too?
> 
> My seller reckons the one he has is a model 9411. Theoretically that should have a date. And could the hands be replacement hands?


this is fake too. hands definitely fake. caseback definitely fake (real Rolex/Tudor Sub caseback has completely different construction, with a double metal ridge that holds a rubber gasket. hard to tell from these photos, but it's safe to assume case may be fake too.

Tudor is very easy to fake. think about it, Rolex Submariner is a very popular watch that is very widely faked. however it is very difficult to fake a Rolex movement. impossible, really, it's just too distinctive. but Tudors use ETA movements. you can get regular ETA movement off the shelf, or use a movement from a cheaper old dress Tudor watch, or even a Chinese copy of an ETA movement. engrave Tudor on the rotor and most people will be fooled. put it all together with some easily printed dials and hands and you got yourself a watch that some unfortunate soul will pay hundreds for on ebay without even suspecting anything is wrong.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Steven1 said:


> You're welcome
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with Steven (tho as hes the expert id be silly not to







). But Looking at the listing rather than the watch Id have stayed away. As others have said - No Paypal -"Ding! Ding! Ding!"







He lists almost no information and the few bits I always like to see are not present - ie no pics of between the lase lugs as thats where i like to see the case no and serial.

Looking at the watch: I dont like the hands, I cant see close enough to read the movt type (there is an ETA movt no on these but you need a better pic to be sure what youre looking at - and as Steven says this is just an indicator not proof its genuine). Im not sure 9411s had the case number stamped in them - need to check the ref pics Chris. The back text is a mess - its one of the cool things about one of these and a sure fire giveaway of a fake - funily enough on the real ones the letters are a bit squiffy, but theyre really detailed and deep. Dial looks ok for spacings etc - but its hard to see form these pix - but one of the things I always worry about is fake aged lume. You see this a lot on the fake SM300s and one of the things that had me concerned on your other one. The bezeldot looks iffy like a blob and not contained in a mini holder. I see hes done no pics of the crown either - these seem to be hard to fake well and tend not to be crisp. I think the case looks a little strange (especially from the back - its a bit 'chunky' but I cant tell u where... and very 'new'. the other one also looked a bit like that - im not liking the proportions of the crown guards either. The bracelet I never worry about - so many now have aftermarket ones as these are not Rolex's and hence people dont really wanna buy a bracelet at Rolex prices - if the b'let is real its a bonus really and Id never add anything for it.



potz said:


> Thanks again for your invaluable help, Steven. I'll have to see about getting out of this crappy deal unscathed and then - roll on my RLT36 "Mermaid": good quality and original watch from a reputable dealer/manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nah Chris, trust me youve done most of the research now and youre nearly there. now is the time to look and compare and getmore savvy, not walk away. They are out there and I would also check the forums for them - tho youre less likely to get one for a song you will be dealing with reputable sellers etc.


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

JonW said:


> David - I wore it when repainting the 7's grille yesterday....


Excellent news......I knew you had class Jon


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Boxbrownie said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > David - I wore it when repainting the 7's grille yesterday....
> ...


One does one's best...


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## foztex (Nov 6, 2005)

Steven1 said:


> You're welcome
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The winner of that one ( a snip at $990) seems to have bought a genuine one a while back. you'd think that they would know better having seen what appears to be the real thing.

I this one genuine Steve ( 8930759809 ) there are some pretty good photos, it would be interesting if you could point out the main points.

cheers

Andy


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Glad it worked out Chris,









I cant get your link to work however, I dont know how the feedback read, but be carefull it doesnt look like you and the seller were 'shill bidding' after all it looks like you bought it and exchanged feedback etc and now hes got it for sale again.....


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## grey (Apr 29, 2006)

potz said:


> Link works now Jase.
> 
> Ebay just agreed because we went the official way via ebay. I trid to warn the highest bidder, but these days you can only contact him if he happens to sell something as well ... Ebay is definitely lending support inadvertantly to people flogging fakes ...


Wow, just read this whole thread - terrific to see all the constructive support and advice. Glad it all worked out OK.

Got me wondering if our new member Takahashi, who I see lives in Devon, can help uncover the mystery of the zillions of 'vintage' Seikos and Orients that emerge on eBay from that part of the world.

Grey

ps Amongst my small collection of Seiko 6139 chronos, Sealions and Sportsmatics, I have a Sandoz Submariner - it doesn't say 'Rolex' on the face and I think it's luvverly. Will this get me banned?


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Banned from ebay?









Nope, that will be fine, as long as it doesnt say Rolex


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

I think he means will saying a sandoz clone is loverly get him banned from here Jase


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

I see


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

potz said:


> Link works now Jase.
> 
> Ebay just agreed because we went the official way via ebay. I trid to warn the highest bidder, but these days you can only contact him if he happens to sell something as well ... Ebay is definitely lending support inadvertantly to people flogging fakes ...


Sorry Chris my German is non existant but do I take it the guy has re listed this without making it clear it is not genuine?









Bable gives me this









_Tudor Oyster Prince submarine sign with leather volume, black dial and painted indices ._

The condition of the clock is good as beautiful in the photos to recognize very.

With volume impacts 20mm,

The clock functions a service cleaning was evenly accomplished.

Mechanism work, ETA work rotor drawn Tudor car Prince, bolted crown with Rolex indication! Mass diameter the 43 mm inclusive crown! If you questions have place you these before you an offer to deliver!!!!!


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## grey (Apr 29, 2006)

pg tips said:


> I think he means will saying a sandoz clone is loverly get him banned from here Jase


Quite so, PG!

ps. Well, bugger me if Takahashi didn't come from the same place as the vintage Seikos. Velly strange place, Devon,.


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## MrPitbull (Aug 22, 2006)

I just had to say that your Sub is a stunner! I Have a sub with blue bazel and blue dial from 1970, but it is in a need of a redial or a new dial, so if any one now of someone that are good at Tudor or have a new dial for sale please let me know. By the way put that leather strap on a pilot watch insted and put on a army style nylon strap on this one.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

potz said:


> PG, babblefish is priceless when it comes to involuntary humour
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you'll find hes a shiester of the highest order as he also sells fake SM300s... he doesnt care that we all know its a fake because he will dupe some poor ebayer who hasnt seen the forums yet. Its all pretty sad. the best thing to do is report him to ebay each time we see one to get the auctions stopped...



MrPitbull said:


> I just had to say that your Sub is a stunner! I Have a sub with blue bazel and blue dial from 1970, but it is in a need of a redial or a new dial, so if any one now of someone that are good at Tudor or have a new dial for sale please let me know. By the way put that leather strap on a pilot watch insted and put on a army style nylon strap on this one.


Thanks MrPitbull. I tried it on a beige/olive two peice and it looked great but sadly the distance between the stringbar and the case was too thin - Ive now got a bracelet for it. The watch is still at the local RSC and I must pick it up, they tell me there are no parts for it and they cannot service it for me. so maybe if you need parts for yours you should try the local RSC as some may still have parts but they seem to be going fast.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Welcome Mr Bull









Yeah Jon, do as the man says


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

I always do as im told.... you know that Jase...


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## psychlist (Feb 28, 2005)

What a fascinating thread. I love these snowflake Subs and have been doing a bit of research myself. I stumbled on an excellent French forum which has a thread with pics of every Tudor Sub model which would be invaluable for anyone who's interested. I won't break forum rules by posting a link here, but if anyone's interested PM me and I'll send the link.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but the French navy used these for a while in preference to the more expensive Rolex Sub and the link shows lots of those


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

JonW said:


> potz said:
> 
> 
> > PG, babblefish is priceless when it comes to involuntary humour
> ...


Aye sad but true, we need to keep on at ebay about these scammers.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

The downside is that some are now being passed on by unsuspecting owners as well... very sad









But yes we should try and knowck off these guys. I was thinking of putting togther a spot the fake Tudor Sub snoflake guide and getting it on a website like the SM300 one on Clayman's site - any help greatly received.


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## MrPitbull (Aug 22, 2006)

Here in Thailand there is a **** load of faked Tudors, but they are very easy to spot. Whats funny is that every body knows that Thailand is the fake watches paradise, but not many knows that Thailand is the biggest export country for swiss quality watches!!! I promise you all that you have never seen so much Patek, Vacheron and Rolex as here!! The second hand market is crazy huge.

Since i always have been in to watches, this is really paradise.

Im out buying watches every weekend. And since they love all the upperclass watches they leave the rest for me!! New and a couple of years old Rolex are very expensive here but the rest is a lot cheaper than europe. Only last weekend i bought two Oris, two Tudor Chronograph, Eterna 1935 and a Baume Mercier 6103.

I also found a gold Daytona from 2000 with the Zenith movement and leather strap for 3600000B that is about 800000 Euro. Same price as in steel in Sweden. So now i have one more watch to dream about until next weekend since Daytona gold with brown leather strap is one of my favourite watches.

When we talking about Tudor, dont miss the Tudor Ranger!! I love mine with the Rolex Bracelet, more than i loved my old Rolex Explorer.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Wow, id love to see a picture of your collection, it sounds like you have some beautiful pieces..


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Mr Pitbull complained so I complied:


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