# Best Value Watches (Scandal Part 2)



## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

To continue on from my post about how some watch companies are taking the mickey out of some customers (depending on the model in question) I would like to continue with this :

I call all experts and watch enthusiasts (basically the entire forum) to place their opinions on the best VALUE watches.

This does not mean you need to mention the 9.99 lidl stainless steel watches one can get, and call it good value because you have purchased a watch for less than a tenner, this is a serious debate. I shall begin by giving my suggestions :

(1) Orient reserve (80 - 150 pounds)

(reason) You get an automatic watch with reasonable build quality, and not a bad automatic movement.

(2) Brietlings of the cheaper kind (superocean, cockpit)

(reason1) Large high quality casing and bracelets.cosc.

(reason2) they look dam good on the wrist.

(reason3) resale value is not bad.

(disadvantage1) eta - although I am not knowledgeable enough to know if this is a disadvantage, that is, over the possibility of them making their own movement 100 percent.

(3) Rolex (multiple models)

This is a strange one, is it not so hear me out.

(disadvantage) rolex have increased prices by at least 20 percent in the last 5 years, therefore buying one now on average is going to cost you an extra 1000 pounds, and you are getting !!! Nothing for that.

(advantage) the exact counter to the disadvantage. My friend has a just date with 2tone jubelee that he paid 3000 for 6 years ago. Becasue the same watch is now 5800 he could probebly sell his and make a small loss or even break even.

(Reason2)In house movement, smack bang in your face (and a dam good movement at that).

(4)Dreffas+co, affordable hand made swiss movements. 350 or lower for most models (ones with gold obviously more). What I don't know, as I have never had one is, quality of casing and bracelets on such watches.

Of course, feel free to disagree with me on any point, there are just my feelings and opinions on the matter, as for the facts, if I got anything wrong above, pls correct me.

Oh, I know this is in swiss section but open to all. If that means subject has to be moved, no probs.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Sounds like you're on a crusade against the Swiss to me Andy.:wink1:


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

no, no. It's 2 things really. I have come to quite like this forum and the people in it. I ask a lot of questions directly to do with me and what I am interested in directly. After reading some post about a guy trying to sell his rolex on here (still trying to sell it) one of the comments was that he does not contribute to the forum, so I wanted to give something back (i am also interested in this issue) and start topics that others may find useful too.

I am a complete novice to the watch world but have learned a lot just reading the posts here. I was totally prepared to part with my cash for exactly what tomshep said - blind belief that because I thought I was buying into the brand / logo, that that would automatically accompany quality. To find out this is not so for some models hah. I am upset, firstly because I quite liked the look of that tag indy 500, but now look at it in a totally different way.


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## Johnny_E (Nov 16, 2009)

I'm in the same boat. I'm reading with interest because I want to buy a 'luxury' brand next year but I don't want the #%^* ripped out of me by profiteering marketeers. What I'd like to see at the end of this is a list of makers that the members here hold in high regard. Not just as a 'brand' but as a maker of fine and high quality watches.

Of course, budget effects the possibilty of owning one, but who makes real quality these days? Maybe vintage is the way to go.


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## pugster (Nov 22, 2004)

brand names are always more expensive, the bigger the brand the bigger the profit margin and the more you pay  , easiest way is just buy what you like and we all have our own views.

(1) Orient reserve (80 - 150 pounds)

(reason) You get an automatic watch with reasonable build quality, and not a bad automatic movement.

buy a seiko instead, better build quality and proven movements

(2) Brietlings of the cheaper kind (superocean, cockpit)

cheap breitling=quartz ,personally i like an engnine in my car when i buy it, not just the battery  ,looking good is a personal view, personally i think most look bloody awful, eta make arounf 95% of watch movement-nowt wrong with them at all

(3) Rolex (multiple models)

good resale value tho not much development/design over the years imo,

(4)Dreffas+co,

never heard of them and a net search gave no hits, tho at Â£350 for an in house movement quality will be chinese style (nothing wrong with chinese watches tho Â£350 would be a bit steep for one imo)


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

pugster said:


> (1) Orient reserve (80 - 150 pounds)
> 
> (reason) You get an automatic watch with reasonable build quality, and not a bad automatic movement.
> 
> buy a seiko instead, better build quality and proven movements


Sorry but I can`t agree with you there, I`ve owned quite a few Orients & Seikos over the years & while I`ll except that some older Orients weren`t as good as Seikos, IMO the modern ones are just as good :wink2:


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## Livius de Balzac (Oct 6, 2006)

pugster said:


> (4)Dreffas+co,
> 
> never heard of them and a net search gave no hits, tho at Â£350 for an in house movement quality will be chinese style (nothing wrong with chinese watches tho Â£350 would be a bit steep for one imo)


Dreyfuss & Co is a â€œmake believeâ€ luxury brand. Chinese cases, dials and hands, assembled in Switzerland with Swiss made ETA movements.


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## josep (Dec 23, 2008)

Id say that JLC are good VFM in the luxury watch segment.

A fraction of the cost of PP but not too far off the quality and in some cases use a very similar movement.


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

lol, first I would like to apologize for my spelling.

Ernest Jones sell many of their models. And this, not surprising me but yet another let down is LDB's statement. Pugster, This is a debate that can be taken from many angles. My orient cost 80 pounds, so can you get a high quality seiko auto for that price new. Maybe. Cost is a factor.

Oh, when I said cheap brietling, I meant of the 2000 - 3000 range, i.e. super ocean, avenger and so on. Not the quartz versions, and of course you are right, it is my opinion that they look nice.

Would you honor us and give us your suggestions on what you think is good value.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Buy what you like. That for me has a different, more complex meaning (in relation to watches) than it once did. If you are talking about 1 - 300 pounds, then yeah, impulse buy / it looked nice / you liked the feel / what ever. But start adding another 0, and i guess all I am saying I want something that is a bit special in all ways, not only special to me, special in its movement and how it is built.


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

Ah yes, I was waiting for Jaeger-Le-Coultre to come up.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but, these guys build and construct their own movements. However, this is reflected in the price. If you want new you got to have at least 4000 pounds. So we now get into rolex kind of price territory.

I have not heard mentioned IWC yet.

I tell you, I like their spitfire watches. A local watch store owner told me that they only build around 100,000 pieces a year. Do they make their own movements, or do they use ETA.

(5) IWC spitfire - 3000 pounds ish.

(disadvantage) Pilots watch, not meant for water at all (i think)


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## Parabola (Aug 1, 2007)

Best value watches...

Second hand just about anything


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

Parabola said:


> Best value watches...
> 
> Second hand just about anything


An excellent suggestion, only problem is that you have to buy what is available, not possibly excatly what you want. However, there are some excellent dealers out there who trade in second hand watches and have some interesting stuff on offer.


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

hmm, could I say this -

Second hand is a whole other debate in itself, so quite rightly I will start a new topic for that.


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## Paulus (Nov 12, 2009)

Disregarding brand image and snob factor but focusing on functionality, quality and design for the money then Casio

If you follow the "must be mechanical" line then Seiko/Orient/Citizen & anything well finished with a seagull movement (Alpha, Parnis, etc.), RLT, Precista, etc.

Personally I have an inverse snobbery thing going and even if I had piles of cash would struggle to buy a watch where such a huge percentage of the asking price is going on marketing and mark up.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

It's all relative - VFM watches can be the LIDL SS you didn't want mentioned if you're on a strictly limited budget - or it can be a Timex Ironman if you don't want (or can't afford) a G-Shock - it's all relative! :yes:

You need to balance your budget with what is available to you at the time - if you have a monthly budget, can you be *STRONG* enough to let it build up for (say) six months till you get enough cash together to go for that exclusive purchase you really, really want? :to_become_senile:

So I've got a budget of Â£50 per month, in six months I could buy a nice Â£300 watch (an RLT?) - but Commander Bond might have a budget of Â£400 per month (he just doesn't let Big M know) and he can buy himself another Rolex in six months time - it's still relative to the disposable income that's available.









As to whether the Commander's Rolex is eight times better than the RLT watch I might buy at the six months mark - well that's an entirely different debate, and for different reasons.

My 2c worth! :yes:


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## Livius de Balzac (Oct 6, 2006)

kc104 said:


> Ah yes, I was waiting for Jaeger-Le-Coultre to come up.
> 
> Someone correct me if I am wrong but, these guys build and construct their own movements. However, this is reflected in the price. If you want new you got to have at least 4000 pounds. So we now get into rolex kind of price territory.
> 
> ...


The base models from JLC are in my opinion good value for the money. The quality is 90% of Patek Philippe for 50% of the price. The highend models from JLC are just as expensive as the PPs and the quality are equal. All JLC movements and most of the parts used on the watches, except the leather straps and the oil, are made inhouse. Patek Philippe uses both inhouse and Lemania/ETA based movements, cases and dials are made inhouse.

The base models from IWC uses modified ETA movements, the highend models uses inhouse movements.

ETA has about 100 different movements in their catalog, from cheap quartz for the Swatch watches to expensive highend mechanical movements, chronometercertified with a lot of complications. The highend ETA movements are very accurate and reliable and cost about the same as similar Rolex movements to produce.


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## Steve's Dad (Dec 19, 2007)

Livius,

You have a lot of knowledge, do you work in the Swiss watch industry?


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## Livius de Balzac (Oct 6, 2006)

Steve said:


> Livius,
> 
> You have a lot of knowledge, do you work in the Swiss watch industry?


No, I donâ€™t work in the Swiss watch industry, but I have a passion for Swiss watches (and chocolate). I have tried to learn as much as possible about my watches, the history of the brands, how the watches are made, and about the Swiss watch industry.


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

I wonder if the IWC spitfire has an eta or in house movement. It is one of their lower end models.

Another make not mentioned yet is longines. You can get an auto hydro for around 550 pounds.


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

I've seen new JLC watches for around Â£2,700. There is no better watch for the money in my opinion, even if there are watches you like better. These are at the top end and do have that something special. microscopic imperfections where something has been worked by hand. The fact that few people have even heard of it makes it unattractive to the "look at ME" buyer but walk into a good hotel wearing one and see how you get treated. Those whose business it is to notice will notice.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2009)

tomshep said:


> I've seen new JLC watches for around Â£2,700. There is no better watch for the money in my opinion, even if there are watches you like better. These are at the top end and do have that something special. microscopic imperfections where something has been worked by hand. The fact that few people have even heard of it makes it unattractive to the "look at ME" buyer but walk into a good hotel wearing one and see how you get treated. Those whose business it is to notice will notice.


How about a Casio in a Travelodge? Will that get me noticed?


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

Think the title of Best Value excludes a definitive answer. If you put a price range or a type of watch (eg diver) then an answer would be easier to define. The key point is *'perceived value'*. Bit below about value and I think the last paragraph is the most relevant.

Alasdair

*For a firm to deliver value to its customers, they must consider what is known as the "total market offering." This includes the reputation of the organization, staff representation, product benefits, and technological characteristics as compared to competitors' market offerings and prices. Value can thus be defined as the relationship of a firm's market offerings to those of its competitors.*

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Value in marketing can be defined by both qualitative and quantitative measures. On the qualitative side, value is the perceived gain composed of individual's emotional, mental and physical condition plus various social, economic, cultural and environmental factors. On the quantitative side, value is the actual gain measured in terms of financial numbers, percentages, and dollars.*

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*

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For an individual to deliver value, one has to grow his / her knowledge and skill sets to showcase benefits delivered in a transaction (e.g., getting paid for a job).*

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For an organization to deliver value, it has to improve its value : cost ratio. When an organization delivers high value at high price, the perceived value may be low. When it delivers high value at low price, the perceived value may be high. The key to deliver high perceived value is attaching value to each of the individuals or organizationsâ€"making them believe that what you are offering is beyond expectationâ€"helping them to solve a problem, offering a solution, giving results, and making them happy.*

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*

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Value changes based on time, place and people in relation to changing environmental factors. It is a creative energy exchange between people and organizations in our marketplace.*


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

Alas, you are right.

However, the point of this debate was simply to get members to say what they thought was good value for money. It is too large a debate to deal with the entire issue. I, like many others on here are always looking around for the next purchase, and for this next one, I wanted to actually get something I had put some research into.

In the next post here I am going to try and summarize what the findings of this debate has been.


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

This may help, it's a list of watch makers (cases & movements ) from some book I scanned a while back.










As to value for money, isn't that a subjective thing too?

EG, I bought an AP earlier in the year, some of my friends can appreciate its cost, and that I never pay full price for anything, therefore understand where I come from that in my opinion I got good VFM.

But others just don't understand why any watch is above Â£100 at the most.

So to them if a watch cost Â£20K and you got it for Â£1K for example, they wouldn't see the VFM and cash not spent, they would just see a watch for Â£1K, which to them would be a waste of money.

It all depends on your outlook relating to certain items and the value they possess to you


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

Ok, so lets summarize the points found here :

(1) Value for money is subjective, however, the vibe of this debate is for us watch lovers to look at all the brands, in relation to buying the next one, and filter some options down.

(2) If you value an 'in house' movement, which is something to value you need to be looking at :

rolex

JLC

IWC

There are of course others, but for those of us with less than 10,000 pounds...

(3) Quartz watches. let us take the omega seamaster, quartz or auto. If you take the quartz, the case / glass and everything else is exactly the same. However inside, it is likely that the movement costs less than the presentation box. Also, when one goes for a quartz it is likely to 'tick' rather than sweep round, and if you're anything like me you like the look of a nice sweeping hand.

(4) Value in relation to known brands. Who the **** has heard of IWC. If I go to my local and dance on the table with a nice IWC on, i could probebly walk out without fear that I would get mugged. Watching the guy with an Omega 1/2 the price get mugged for his. If you need something that people are going to know, best stick with a rolex.

(5) re sale value. Again, if you're like me, you don't think about that when looking at the watch shop window, but let it be something in the back of your mind because one day you may sell. What keeps it's value ? Rolex. Breitling are not to bad.

(6) Buying pre owned. hmm, first off, there is that thing of knowing that you are the only one that has worn a watch. However, going pre owned may allow you to move up a brand, e.g. from a longines to a breitling. It's as good a time as any in the recession.

(7) Buy what you like - maybe this is the biggest value of all. Take the Tag Indy 500. I like it, I really like it. In the full knowledge that movement wise I am getting ripped off, it still tempts me, and after all, these quartz watches are still reliable.


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## pugster (Nov 22, 2004)

theres just too broad a range for what you are asking tbh, i'd be typing half a day, tho for in house movements glashutte should be in with jlc etc (excluding patek and 'ultra high end' makers of course)


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm sorry KC104, but I don't get the point of this thread.

Maybe I'm missing something, I'm not sure.

Everyone here has posted their opinions regarding your original post and that is all they are opinions.

And here are mine:

They have been summarized, really generalized and have been written up as if they were some sort of 'what makes a watch- lover guide' with 'facts' which are just plain flippant silliness.

EG "to quote"

(3) Quartz watches. let us take the omega seamaster, quartz or auto. If you take the quartz, the case / glass and everything else is exactly the same. However inside, it is likely that the movement costs less than the presentation box. Also, when one goes for a quartz it is likely to 'tick' rather than sweep round, and if you're anything like me you like the look of a nice sweeping hand.

a. A half decent quartz movement although far less expensive than a mechanical movement is certainly more than the presentation box.

b. Quartz movts. do tick as they use a step motor to transfer the power from the battery to the hands, and mechanical movements are geared from spring to hands therefore have a smooth sweep action. There is a little more thought involved choosing a watch & its movement then just Ooh it ticks, or Ooh it sweeps.

QUOTE " Who the **** has heard of IWC"

Hmm everyone? almost every high street will have an IWC dealer

QUOTE "If I go to my local and dance on the table with a nice IWC on, i could probebly walk out without fear that I would get mugged. Watching the guy with an Omega 1/2 the price get mugged for his."

I do not know of anyone who has been mugged specifically for their watch. I know of people who have been mugged and had their watch & everything else taken.

QUOTE" If you need something that people are going to know, best stick with a rolex."

And from your conclusion above you'd get mugged even quicker as Rolexes are very common.

QUOTE " (7) Buy what you like"

That & VFM is subjective are the only 'truths' listed here.

Also the wording you have used with in your posts makes me wonder if you are a watch lover at all.

It 'sounds' to me like you are writing a thesis on us poor WIS, and getting us naturally helpful souls to do all your 'research' for you.

PLEASE NOTE all the above is not personal, as I don't know you personally, they are just my opinions to your opinions.


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

Let me respond to the above.

(1) I am a watch lover. One who started here by just asking the questions I wanted answered and after a while I thought, I want to give soemthing back, help some other users (and myself at the same time).

(2) Who has heard of IWC, was not meant to mean, who here or who in the watch world has heard of them, it was meant to mean who, in the general population has heard of them. less than 10 percent of people I would think.

(3)Plenty of muggings occur because someone notices that you have a rolex on your wrist.

(4)Am I writing a thesis? No, but I am keep to learn as much as I can about watches. If anyone, yourself included, think that I am just using you, draining off your knowledge, this was not my intention and I am sorry you feel that way.


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## Robert (Jul 26, 2006)

To summarise your summary



kc104 said:


> (1) Value for money is subjective


Says it all.


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## Chris H (Dec 9, 2009)

> 2) Who has heard of IWC, was not meant to mean, who here or who in the watch world has heard of them, it was meant to mean who, in the general population has heard of them. less than 10 percent of people I would think.


tbh before joining the forum I hadn't heard of them or many other mentioned daily on here :lookaround:


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## brgkster (Jul 14, 2009)

how many people in any fourm members local area would associate a sinn with a watch.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

i really dont get this at all.....honestly......its all relitive (as others have said) and subjective (as others have said)

....and some others might even call it bolox......and thats pretty much where i would fit in.....

seriously, if i had the money to buy a DSSD i would bead it, change the hands to some nice plonkers, sanitise the chapter ring and stick it on a lumpy or an orange rhino......


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

I have a very simple rule. "If an item is the flavor of the day with the jet-setting hordes because so and so has one",then I avoid it like the plague and spend my money with the underdogs who can match the quality and not spend their overheads on expensive glossy adds.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

much better


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

:lol:  Brilliant!


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## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

I bought my IWC after having a seamaster and realising that everyone else had one. I was really flattered at first, but then it became annoying. I sold the Omega to the guy who ran my local chip shop after he noticed it on my wrist!

IWC is good value but how come no one has mentioned Zenith?


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

scottswatches said:


> I bought my IWC after having a seamaster and realising that everyone else had one. I was really flattered at first, but then it became annoying. I sold the Omega to the guy who ran my local chip shop after he noticed it on my wrist!
> 
> IWC is good value but how come no one has mentioned Zenith?


Zenith, only one thing to say ...... El Primero Chronograph Movements


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