# Bread Making?



## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

Hi

Do we have any bakers on the forum (Mr Teatime?)?

I got a breadmaker for Chrimbo from my girlfriend and we've had surprisingly good results so far (it works and makes very good bread).

The only 'problem' is that the maker's recipes taste a bit sweet. The bread tastes rather like Croissant bread.

The breadmaker books that I also got for Christmas say that the salt/sugar balance is key to the bread rising correctly (feeds the yeast and moderates it respecively).

I want to make more 'savory' bread, so should I reduce the sugar or increase the salt or both?

I'd rather not waste ingredients making 'bread bricks', so was hoping any bakers could give some advice.

Thanks in advance.

Andy


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

Who. Me? said:


> I'd rather not waste ingredients making 'bread bricks', so was hoping any bakers could give some advice.


If you need more advice on bread bricks or bread ashtrays just let me know and I'll ask the wife as she specialises in making them with her breadmaker. Also seems to be able to make layer bread!!!! - thats where she has fruit/savoury ingredients but they always sink to the bottom giving a nice solid layer.

Even the local birds are wise enough to leave her offerings alone if they are put on the bird table.


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## Tom Radford (Apr 28, 2009)

Im certainly not a baker, but we do have a bread making machine and you have to absolutely presise in the measurements, otherwise it wont be quite right. A few extra grams of sugar or salt can completely change the consitancy and taste of the loaf.

I'd stick tightly to the reciepies in the manual that came with the breadmaker and see what results you get from that.


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## Clum (Feb 14, 2009)

My housemate makes bread all the time by hand and just seems to measure the ingredients in his head :blink: Mostly turns out ok though and isn't around for long, I guess he's got a knack for it by now.


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## HappyLad (Oct 28, 2009)

We've had one of the Panasonic bread makers for a couple of years now. Its used nearly every day, and TBH, we very very rarely get a duff loaf.

Suggest you experiment a bit and find a recipe that does it for you. OK, you might waste a bit of flour etc, but the ingredients are pretty cheap.

Also try different flours and dried yeasts - this has a major effect on taste. We tend to use cheap 48p for 1.5Kg bread flour from Asda - works well for white bread. Asda yeast as well.

Are you doing the "fast bake" programme, if so then you need to make sure your water is the right temp, otherwise the yeast won't have time to activate. Slow bake FTW though....


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

Alas said:


> If you need more advice on bread bricks or bread ashtrays just let me know and I'll ask the wife as she specialises in making them with her breadmaker. Also seems to be able to make layer bread!!!! - thats where she has fruit/savoury ingredients but they always sink to the bottom giving a nice solid layer.
> 
> Even the local birds are wise enough to leave her offerings alone if they are put on the bird table.


We're not doing too bad on texture at the moment...



















... it's just flavour that we're working on now.


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

HappyLad said:


> We've had one of the Panasonic bread makers for a couple of years now. Its used nearly every day, and TBH, we very very rarely get a duff loaf.
> 
> Suggest you experiment a bit and find a recipe that does it for you. OK, you might waste a bit of flour etc, but the ingredients are pretty cheap.
> 
> ...


Thanks, got given a range of flours and Hovis and Sainsbury's own yeasts, so will be trying those over the next few weeks.

Mine is a compact breadmaker (Morphy Richards) and doesn't have a fast-bake option, but I do make sure that the water is tepid anyhow. As above, results are pretty good so far.

Going to try a fruit loaf later today, I think.

Cheers

Andy


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

I just made a nice banana, nut, raisin and cinnamon bread for breakfast to go along the 'Morning Glories' ( Champagne & Orange juice) with the help of 'R2D2', our 12 year old bread machine.

Regarding sweetness, sugar is essential in the browning process. For standards white or French bread, I use Â½ sugar and Â½ Splenda. When the baking cycle is about to be completed, I take the bread out of the machine, still in its hot canister and then put it in the oven for an additional 15 minutes at 350FÂ°. Now, my machine does have an extended cycle but only has a fixed temperature setting. Oven is more practical for me. Hope this helps.


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## JTW (Jun 14, 2007)

Our experience with a panasonic machine is, using sachets of yeast, don't use any sugar and the results are great.


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

BlueKnight said:


> I just made a nice banana, nut, raisin and cinnamon bread for breakfast to go along the 'Morning Glories' ( Champagne & Orange juice) with the help of 'R2D2', our 12 year old bread machine.
> 
> Regarding sweetness, sugar is essential in the browning process. For standards white or French bread, I use Â½ sugar and Â½ Splenda. When the baking cycle is about to be completed, I take the bread out of the machine, still in its hot canister and then put it in the oven for an additional 15 minutes at 350FÂ°. Now, my machine does have an extended cycle but only has a fixed temperature setting. Oven is more practical for me. Hope this helps.


Thanks, I'd thought sugar was only used to feed the yeast. That R2D2 clone is very cool BTW.



> Our experience with a panasonic machine is, using sachets of yeast, don't use any sugar and the results are great.


Interesting. I don't remember using sugar when we made bread at school as a kid.

Mind you, it did turn out like a small house-brick.

Might just give it a try with less sugar to start with, and see what happens.


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

Who. Me? said:


> Thanks, I'd thought sugar was only used to feed the yeast. That R2D2 clone is very cool BTW.


Oh absolutely! The bread won't rise w/o sugar. I tried it with only Splenda,( Natural derivative of sugar) which according to the manufacturer can be used volume per volume as sugar. Didn't work well.

Of course, honey or molasses is a great substitute for sweet bread. In fact, my next one is going to be my world famous Guinness and molasses beer bread.

Okay... Back to my morning glory...


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

> Okay... Back to my morning glory...


Errrrr that probably doesnt mean the same over there as over here......


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## gregory (Feb 13, 2009)

Rathbones currently two for one at Morrisons.

Easy.


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## gregory (Feb 13, 2009)

jasonm said:


> > Okay... Back to my morning glory...
> 
> 
> Errrrr that probably doesnt mean the same over there as over here......


 :jawdrop:

LOL... a bit like using the term Norweigan Wood in Oslo.

Be very careful.


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

It's bad enough that since I've joined this Forum, I had to learn a lot about watches but now I've got to learn a new language: English! Sheeeesh...BTW Morning Glory is Champagne over Orange juice.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

> Sheeeesh...BTW Morning Glory is Champagne over Orange juice.


Hey, you can call it what you like, whatever floats your boat....

When you find out what it means over here your gonna chuckle everytime you make it :bag:


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## HappyLad (Oct 28, 2009)

BlueKnight said:


> ...BTW Morning Glory is Champagne over Orange juice.


Whatever else could it possibly be :dontgetit:


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

jasonm said:


> > Sheeeesh...BTW Morning Glory is Champagne over Orange juice.
> 
> 
> Hey, you can call it what you like, whatever floats your boat....
> ...


Well...? I sort of have an idea from your devious answer.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Good old BBC.....

Educational content


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

jasonm said:


> Good old BBC.....
> 
> Educational content


 :jawdrop: That's it..No more champagne for me. Back to my wet dreams.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

BlueKnight said:


> The bread won't rise w/o sugar.


it will......., but need s a lot of air put into the dough......when kneading bread at home, you won't be able to process the dough enough for the proteins to develop enough. Gluten is produced when mixing wheat and water together (wheat having a high level of protein) and if develpos enough will be natrually sweet....however, kneading or mixing the dough at home wont produce enough to do this....so sugar is added to compensate for this. Sugar not only adds to flavour, it also adds to the texture and the colour of the loaf of bread once it leaves the oven. Salt also does this. Try making bread without salt, and it wont colour as well, and will taste pretty awful......

try to use proper yeast as well (not that powdered stuff) as this will further enhance the taste of the bread......

the other thing i would mention as well, is to try and do a "sourdough" as not ony is this the best tasting bread there is (other then french bread, but that *must* be eaten within 2 hours of it exiting the oven....after that, its stale)


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

mrteatime said:


> BlueKnight said:
> 
> 
> > The bread won't rise w/o sugar.
> ...


I'm at the mercy of the automatic kneading cycle and the instructions.The yeast I use is a grayish granular product for bread machines. What do you use?


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

BlueKnight said:


> mrteatime said:
> 
> 
> > BlueKnight said:
> ...


the proper smelly live stuff


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

mrteatime said:


> the other thing i would mention as well, is to try and do a "sourdough" as not ony is this the best tasting bread there is


Thanks for the advice.

I've just looked up Sourdough bread recipes.

Do all sourdough recipes need a 'starter'? The recipes online make it look like keeping the starter going is like keeping a pet!

With regards yeasts; I fancy giving proper yeast a try, but my breadmaker's instructions warn against using it and say only to use 'fast acting' dried yeast.

If I use 'proper' yeast, will I end up with a B-movie-type blob escaping from the machine and engulfing my kitchen? 

Any advice on how to make bread taste more 'bready' and less 'croissanty'?

Cheers

Andy


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

Okay then...Switching recipe book.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

I dusted off our breadmaker and started making bread again about 3 months ago (we still had some 5 year old bread flour in the cupboard :yucky: )

Anyway it is very hit and miss atm. Standard brown loaves are fine but trying granary or other flours and even white I tend to get the bread rising then floping in the middle during the last half hour of baking. The hints in the books say this is most likely too much sugar or yeast but I've tried reducing both to no avail.

btw the sugar also helps you get a hard crust.

Our instruction book says not to use live yeast


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

Who. Me? said:


> mrteatime said:
> 
> 
> > the other thing i would mention as well, is to try and do a "sourdough" as not ony is this the best tasting bread there is
> ...


live yeast is more difficult to use then that other dreid *****, but adds no flavour to the bread at all.......im not all that up on these breadmakers to know why they advise against it, but my guess is that live yeast stays active until the core (or middle) of the bread reaches around 95d before its killed of, and dried yeast will die off long before that......if you do a sourdough, then the yeast will be spent before it goes into the bread maker....it is a longer process, but its worth it because of the flavour.

pg....the reason that granary or any wholemeal or brown flour might 'spill' over is because theres a lot more glucose in the flour then white flour, and so will have an effect on how fast it will raise, or develop.

as for sugar giving the bread a hard 'crust' is not strictly true....it will give colour, and aid texture, but will not add to the crust. the crust is developed through a variety of things, with the raising and evaporation of the moisture from the loaf. Salt will aid the development of crust, as will 'drying out' of the loaf, but im not sue you could dry it out in a breadmaker


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Bloody hell, weve found his subject........ :hi:

Cometh the hour, cometh the man


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

jasonm said:


> Bloody hell, weve found his subject........ :hi:
> 
> Cometh the hour, cometh the man


 And we all thought that he was just another pretty face. Shame on us. :notworthy:


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## gregory (Feb 13, 2009)

Fascinating stuff, on a topic I wouldn't assume to be a science.

Good read!


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

jasonm said:


> Bloody hell, weve found his subject........ :hi:
> 
> Cometh the hour, cometh the man


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

Ah ha....!

It has been scientifically established that the dew point of one's kitchen is the greatest maker or breaker of one's loaf. Behold the new Krypton gas filled bread machine.












> -From the manufacturer-
> 
> Frig, me make a great loaf.


That's good enough for me.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

i went to a bakery course here in june for a week.....and they have devoloped a mixer that is completely air sealed, and the bread is mixed in an atmosphere of pure oxygen!


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

mrteatime said:


> i went to a bakery course here in june for a week.....and they have devoloped a mixer that is completely air sealed, and the bread is mixed in an atmosphere of pure oxygen!


That'd give your ciabatta a nose-bleed.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

if anybody needs any fresh yeast, then give me a shout......cant post it mind, but if anyone is local i can supply some for free


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

mrteatime said:


> if anybody needs any fresh yeast, then give me a shout......cant post it mind, but if anyone is local i can supply some for free


My girlfriend read that and thought you meant something really disgusting.

She won't tell me what though. :dontgetit:


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

Who. Me? said:


> mrteatime said:
> 
> 
> > if anybody needs any fresh yeast, then give me a shout......cant post it mind, but if anyone is local i can supply some for free
> ...


Good thing she didn't see my recipe book...


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

Who. Me? said:


> mrteatime said:
> 
> 
> > if anybody needs any fresh yeast, then give me a shout......cant post it mind, but if anyone is local i can supply some for free
> ...


:lookaround:


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## marmisto (Jan 1, 2009)

I haven't got a breadmaker :bag:


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

I've got a bread maker - "KingsMill" or "Warburtons" :wallbash:

I'd have one - but we'd need to up the butter order to 5 kilos a week - warm bread slabbered in butter - Ooooh! lovely - (and instant indigestion nowadays! :bad: )


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## Paulus (Nov 12, 2009)

We're got one of the Panasonics, top kit

I used to do everything in it to the exact recipe in the book but recently I'm just using it to mix the dough (on quick "pizza" setting, 45m) then proving and baking in the oven.

I did a bake today with Allinson's Seed and Grain bread flour and the proportions on the packet are very different from what's typical in the Panasonic book:

7g sachet dried yeast

650g flour

2 tsp salt

1 tsp sugar

15g butter or 1tbsp oil

400ml warm water

This is a lot more yeast and a lot less sugar than the Panasonic recipes so you might like it. I stuck to it but added extra olive oil, it came out really nice, quite healthy as well.

I also like to use really strong zero or double zero pasta flour to make ciabatta with.

I think using the breadmaker to do the hard work of kneading but then proving and baking the old way gives a bit more scope with the recipes.

mrteatime is quite right about yeast and sourdough, I've often been tempted to make my own wood-fired clay oven in the garden; there's a guy we saw at Hay festival a few years back who does sourdough like that and it's wonderful, he's written a book about making your own oven and tours schools teaching kids to bake :notworthy: Fantastic way to cook pizza as well (mmmmmmm, pizza)

There's a good halfway between dried and fresh which is the little globules that you activate with hot water and sugar to turn into a mad foaming brew, tasty B)


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