# Services- Gatwick ?



## AlanJohn

W.Services gatwick1 by velocipede228822, on Flickr



W.services Gatwick by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Had this watch in the post yesterday.

Services Garwick. Not sure, but does anyone know for sure who made these? I think it was Smiths, the movement looks the same.

It works well and keeps good time, altough it needs a new second hand.


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## mach 0.0013137

You are correct it was made for Services by The Anglo-Celtic Watch Co.Ltd, Gurnos Works, Ystradgynlais near Swansea Wales which was owned by Smiths Industries Ltd, Ingersoll Ltd see the Tick-Tock The style of the Services logo dates it to the mid-late 1950s. I`d say the hands have been replaced as there don`t appear to be any corresponding lumed markers on the dial. Most (if not all) Services watches appear to have been available in either lumed or plain(Services name for unlumed) dial versions.


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## taffyman

i have lived in wales all my life and i didnt know that they even had a watch company in wales they say that you are never too old to learn and in this case thats true


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## sam.

Nice find Alan :thumbsup: ,that movement looks nice and clean,it shouldn't be difficult to source another sub dial hand,as they're all pretty much the same from the Smiths factory. 

i've managed recently to collect 7 pocket watches from the Smiths watch factory,just bought another a couple of hours ago,they made so many interesting variations for different company's that i just can't help myself.

Enjoy,

Sam.


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## AlanJohn

I live a short walk away from what was the old Anglo Celtic watch factory, known locally as "The Tic-Toc." It has now been pulled down.

Smiths was founded in 1851 in London by Samuel Smith. In 1946 just after the second world war, Ingersoll the american company joined with Smiths to form the Anglo Celtic factory in Ystradgylais.

They were the larges producers of watches n the whole of Europe.

But closed in 1980.

Ingersoll started in New York in 1882, so Smiths were an older company. Ingersoll never made the watches, but Waterbury Clock company made them for them. Waterbury later were known as Timex.

The first watches were sold by them in 1892,so it was a while before they branched out into what they are best known for. They opened a store in London in 1904.The first pocket watch to be sold in London in 1905, was the Ingersoll Crown. (one of which I am having serviced at the moment.) This cost 5 shillings, the equivalant of a dollar in America, where the first Dollar watches were sold. The dollar watch made it possisble for a working man to own a watch for the first time.

Ingersoll folded in 1920, and was bought up be Waterbury and sold to the board of directors in 1930, who re-opened it.

Ingersoll pulled out of the Anglo Celtic company in 1969, but the factory continued untill selling smiths clocks and watches untill 1980 when it closed.


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## AlanJohn

sam. said:


> Nice find Alan :thumbsup: ,that movement looks nice and clean,it shouldn't be difficult to source another sub dial hand,as they're all pretty much the same from the Smiths factory.
> 
> i've managed recently to collect 7 pocket watches from the Smiths watch factory,just bought another a couple of hours ago,they made so many interesting variations for different company's that i just can't help myself.
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Sam.


How about some photoes of them Sam? Let's start a smiths and Ingersoll post?


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## sam.

AlanJohn said:


> sam. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice find Alan :thumbsup: ,that movement looks nice and clean,it shouldn't be difficult to source another sub dial hand,as they're all pretty much the same from the Smiths factory.
> 
> i've managed recently to collect 7 pocket watches from the Smiths watch factory,just bought another a couple of hours ago,they made so many interesting variations for different company's that i just can't help myself.
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Sam.
> 
> 
> 
> How about some photoes of them Sam? Let's start a smiths and Ingersoll post?
Click to expand...

Alright sounds like a good idea to me. k:

I'll start off with this Ingersoll,the leather case came with it,and i use it with all my pocket watches,i don't know if its original or not,but it was a nice bonus. 

Poor attempt at a lume shot.


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## JoT

When I worked dahn t'pit I used to take a pocket watch underground in sandwiched between two pieces of lint and placed in a tobacco tin. We couldn't take quartz watches down as they weren't flame-proofed. I had that very model for a while until my bag fell off the machine I was driving and ran over it


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## mach 0.0013137

My little group of `Tick Tock` pocket watches...

*Aviation circa mid/late 1950s.*










*Services (circa late 1950s/early 1960s).*










*Services** `Army` (circa1950s), Services `Exel`, `Stop Watch`& other (circa late 1950s/1970s?) *










BTW is it possible to accurately date the movements?


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## sam.

JoT said:


> When I worked dahn t'pit I used to take a pocket watch underground in sandwiched between two pieces of lint and placed in a tobacco tin. We couldn't take quartz watches down as they weren't flame-proofed. I had that very model for a while until my bag fell off the machine I was driving and ran over it


Now that's what i call a pocket watch protector! 

Interesting about the quartz watches,i didn't know that.


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## sam.

mach 0.0013137 said:


> My little group of `Tick Tock` pocket watches...
> 
> *Aviation circa mid/late 1950s.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Services (circa late 1950s/early 1960s).*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Services** `Army` (circa1950s), Services `Exel`, `Stop Watch`& other (circa late 1950s/1970s?) *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW is it possible to accurately date the movements?


Great stuff Mach,i'd have all those in my collection in a shot. :thumbsup:

I've been trying to date the movements as well,but i haven't been able to come up with much,the only thing i've noticed on the net,is that when there are two numbers on the movement,say for instance 64,some people believe that is the year the watch was made.

I'm not sure if that's true or not,but we should be able to prove or disprove it,say for instance your Services ones,if you find that one of the later one's has two digits on the movement,would it correspond with the Services logo period,if the numbers are 23,then its disproved,but if they're much closer to the year you belive the watch was made,then maybe there is some truth in the theory.

My late Services has 68 on the back,was that the year it was made....maybe?


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## AlanJohn

ingersoll by velocipede228822, on Flickr

An Ingersoll.,



W.timex by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Timex were originally Waterbury, the firm that made all the waches for Ingersoll.



W.smiths empire by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Despite the state on this watch it still keeps good time.



W.Smiths inner by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Well it looks like we have got a Dollar watch line ging here. The name of the first cheap pocket watch by Ingersoll.


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## sam.

Nice one Alan,i hadn't seen a Timex version before,and interesting info too.


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## sam.

Here is another,this time a brass Smiths with a front cover and original chain,Smiths written on the movement,and other info,nothing on the dial except made in GB,but it cant be seen in the picture. 










Took this one before i took it apart and cleaned it.


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## mach 0.0013137

sam. said:


> I've been trying to date the movements as well,but i haven't been able to come up with much,the only thing i've noticed on the net,is that when there are two numbers on the movement,say for instance 64,some people believe that is the year the watch was made.
> 
> I'm not sure if that's true or not,but we should be able to prove or disprove it,say for instance your Services ones,if you find that one of the later one's has two digits on the movement,would it correspond with the Services logo period,if the numbers are 23,then its disproved,but if they're much closer to the year you belive the watch was made,then maybe there is some truth in the theory.
> 
> My late Services has 68 on the back,was that the year it was made....maybe?


I `ve just checked the movements & the numbers are as follows...

24 hr Aviation with the `Made In USA` movement is marked 5592274, the 12 hour is marked 5410M.

*Aviation circa mid/late 1950s.*










This one`s is marked `70`

*Services (circa late 1950s/early 1960s).*










The `Army` is marked `72`,the `Exel` is `70`, the `Stopwatch` is only marked `8` & the un-named watch is marked `69`

*Services** `Army` (circa1950s), Services `Exel`, `Stop Watch`& other (circa late 1950s/1970s?) *










The Army`s `72` does look as though it throws the theory that the movement numbers relate to dates out the window however it is always possible that it has had it`s movement changed at sometime in the past. As to the Aviations & the Stopwatch, who knows what those numbers mean? :huh:


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## sam.

This Ingersoll has 70 on the movement.










The Services has 68.



















This Smiths with the missing hand is also 68.










This one has B3R on the movement.










cont...


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## sam.

Including the writing this one appears to have a Y on the movement.



















This is 5110










You're right Mach that Services Army with 72 on the movement doesn't seem to relate to the theory,but maybe if we all keep posting we may find a pattern?....who knows.


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## mach 0.0013137

sam. said:


> You're right Mach that Services Army with 72 on the movement doesn't seem to relate to the theory,but maybe if we all keep posting we may find a pattern?....who knows.


Well my `Exel` is marked 70 & yours is 68, not much difference so maybe there is a relation between the numbers & dates of manufacture.


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## sam.

mach 0.0013137 said:


> sam. said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're right Mach that Services Army with 72 on the movement doesn't seem to relate to the theory,but maybe if we all keep posting we may find a pattern?....who knows.
> 
> 
> 
> Well my `Exel` is marked 70 & yours is 68, not much difference so maybe there is a relation between the numbers & dates of manufacture.
Click to expand...

Yes it is close,this is certainly interesting detective work,i guess they could also be progressive/different caliber numbers or date codes that need to be deciphered and understood,i hope we can understand them in time.


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## AlanJohn

W.Ingersoll shockproof. by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Ingersoll shockproof, rolled gold.17 jewel.



W.Ingersoll side. by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Pretty slim as you can see.



W.Smiths half hunter by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Smiths half hunter style, but the front doesn't hinge up.



W.Smiths back. by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Same machined back as the one you have Sam.


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## AlanJohn

Ingersoll triumph. by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Ingersoll Triumph. Smiths carried on mading Triumph and empire etc after Ingersoll pulled out in 1969.



Smith 5 jewel by velocipede228822, on Flickr

A Smiths 5 jewel. Most of their watches had no jewels, and are still running 50 years on.


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## sam.

AlanJohn said:


> W.Ingersoll shockproof. by velocipede228822, on Flickr
> 
> Ingersoll shockproof, rolled gold.17 jewel.
> 
> 
> 
> W.Ingersoll side. by velocipede228822, on Flickr
> 
> Pretty slim as you can see.
> 
> 
> 
> W.Smiths half hunter by velocipede228822, on Flickr
> 
> Smiths half hunter style, but the front doesn't hinge up.
> 
> 
> 
> W.Smiths back. by velocipede228822, on Flickr
> 
> Same machined back as the one you have Sam.


That's exactly what i thought when i saw it Alan. :yes:

I'm bidding on an Ingersoll right now,so fingers crossed.


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## sam.

There's a gentleman on an auction site selling lots of Smiths factory watches,he services them too,and he seems to be able to date all of them to the exact year,so i've just sent him a message,so fingers crosses,we may have an answer.


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## sam.

Well i got a reply,the relevant part was this,

he said,"simple really. The movement is stamped "75" that's 1975".

So he's another that subscribes to the theory.


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## mach 0.0013137

sam. said:


> Well i got a reply,the relevant part was this,
> 
> he said,"simple really. The movement is stamped "75" that's 1975".
> 
> So he's another that subscribes to the theory.


It doesn`t explain why the Aviation movements have a different system & what they mean? :huh:


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## mach 0.0013137

sam. said:


> Well i got a reply,the relevant part was this,
> 
> he said,"simple really. The movement is stamped "75" that's 1975".
> 
> So he's another that subscribes to the theory.


It doesn`t explain why the Aviation movements have a different system & what they mean? :huh:

Unless the first two numbers relate to the date ie *55*92274 = 1955 & *54*10M = 1954? ardon:



mach 0.0013137 said:


> 24 hr Aviation with the `Made In USA` movement is marked 5592274, the 12 hour is marked 5410M.
> 
> *Aviation circa mid/late 1950s.*


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## sam.

mach 0.0013137 said:


> sam. said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well i got a reply,the relevant part was this,
> 
> he said,"simple really. The movement is stamped "75" that's 1975".
> 
> So he's another that subscribes to the theory.
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn`t explain why the Aviation movements have a different system & what they mean? :huh:
> 
> Unless the first two numbers relate to the date ie *55*92274 = 1955 & *54*10M = 1954? ardon:
> 
> 
> 
> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 24 hr Aviation with the `Made In USA` movement is marked 5592274, the 12 hour is marked 5410M.
> 
> *Aviation circa mid/late 1950s.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Its funny you should come up with that Mach,

as i've furthered my conversation with the Gent,and he's thinking along the same lines as you. 

Quote:

My other theory is on early Ingersolls. The number stamped on the movement say, 527EM I think means made in 1952 (July) hence the 7. The EM is possibly the place where it was made. I have now rebuilt over 200 or these Smiths and Ingersolls and this theory seems to stand up.


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## mach 0.0013137

That sounds reasonable Sam although it still leaves the mystery of the `8` on the `Stopwatch` movement :huh:


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## sam.

mach 0.0013137 said:


> That sounds reasonable Sam although it still leaves the mystery of the `8` on the `Stopwatch` movement :huh:


There's always one.... :wallbash:










:lol: :lol:


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## AlanJohn

W.INgersoll radiolite by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Here is the latest addition to my Ingersoll/smiths collection, a Radiolite. They started making these in 1917, but I believe this one was from 1927. Still older than me, and that's saying something 

I have taken a photoe of the workings, but have yet to put it on flikr, when I do, I'll put it up here.

These had luminous hands and numbers. This one has had quite a lot of wear and the workings look greasy, but so far today, it has kept good time. That's sayhing something for a watch without jewels over 80 years old.

The mark by the number three is just a reflection.


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## sam.

AlanJohn said:


> W.INgersoll radiolite by velocipede228822, on Flickr
> 
> Here is the latest addition to my Ingersoll/smiths collection, a Radiolite. They started making these in 1917, but I believe this one was from 1927. Still older than me, and that's saying something
> 
> I have taken a photoe of the workings, but have yet to put it on flikr, when I do, I'll put it up here.
> 
> These had luminous hands and numbers. This one has had quite a lot of wear and the workings look greasy, but so far today, it has kept good time. That's sayhing something for a watch without jewels over 80 years old.
> 
> The mark by the number three is just a reflection.


Congratulations John,that really is a stunner,a really nice early example,the crown,tube and bow are completely different to the later models,but the hands look the same.

I like the black dial,and the overall look of the watch,i'll look forward to the movement picks.









I find it almost impossible to take a picture of a black dial without reflection or glare,more often than not,when i look back at the picks i've taken,i see myself holding the camera staring back at me. :lol:


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## AlanJohn

W.INger radiolite movement. by velocipede228822, on Flickr

Here is the movement. You will see that there is a ring of numbers and dated one, within the other, they are difficult to see in this phtoe so I will write them here. The outer ring first. June 29.09 May. 2410 Nov 1212. Jan 2901.April.11.05.June 407.

Now that is so many dated I am confused.Can anyone make sense of them, and give me an accurate date to this watch.

I know the fist ones were made in 1919. How long after that they made them I don't know, and can't find any information on it.

I find today it is gaining a little, but what can you expect for such an old watch. I have two watches being cleaned now, and my watchmaker takes for ever to do them,so it will have to wait.

Is there anyone on the forum who is reliable and reasonable?


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## mel

Are all those different dates not "Patent Dates" rather than manufacturing dates? :to_become_senile:

As different patents were applied for and used, they may bear no relation to the actual date of manufacture? :lol:

Just my 2cents worth :yes:

:weed: ldman:


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## sam.

I think Mel found the link there,it does make sense that they are Patent dates.

Also John i noticed the regulator needle is set to its maximum on the photo,as you said its running a little fast,i don't know if you noticed or not,it just needs sliding down a little.


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## AlanJohn

sam. said:


> I think Mel found the link there,it does make sense that they are Patent dates.
> 
> Also John i noticed the regulator needle is set to its maximum on the photo,as you said its running a little fast,i don't know if you noticed or not,it just needs sliding down a little.


Will do that Sam thanks. Anyone have any idea of the date of this watch?


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## sam.

AlanJohn said:


> sam. said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Mel found the link there,it does make sense that they are Patent dates.
> 
> Also John i noticed the regulator needle is set to its maximum on the photo,as you said its running a little fast,i don't know if you noticed or not,it just needs sliding down a little.
> 
> 
> 
> Will do that Sam thanks. Anyone have any idea of the date of this watch?
Click to expand...

Sorry Alan,i don't know why i inadvertently called you John in my last post? :blush:


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## AlanJohn

John is my middle name Sam, so it doesn't matter what you call me  I altered the timeing and it is running just about perfect now. Great to think a watch of that age is still keeping time isn't it?


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## sam.

AlanJohn said:


> John is my middle name Sam, so it doesn't matter what you call me  I altered the timeing and it is running just about perfect now. Great to think a watch of that age is still keeping time isn't it?


Certainly is Alan,i'm glad the timings back inline.


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## AlanJohn

http://www.pocketwatcher.org/category/watch_information.antiquewatchcompanies.ingersoll/

This link will help to date Ingersoll watches. But I mlust admit, I have numbers on some of my watches that don't add up to these numbers.

My last one, the radiolite had numbers starting 49....and there are no numbers in the list starting with that?


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## sam.

AlanJohn said:


> http://www.pocketwatcher.org/category/watch_information.antiquewatchcompanies.ingersoll/
> 
> This link will help to date Ingersoll watches. But I mlust admit, I have numbers on some of my watches that don't add up to these numbers.
> 
> My last one, the radiolite had numbers starting 49....and there are no numbers in the list starting with that?


Good find Alan,could be very useful. :thumbsup:

Does the list date it to between 1918-1919?


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## sam.

This one came on Thursday,i had to replace the crystal,and three screws were missing from where the dial screws into the case,

luckily i've got a non runner for spares,so it was a simple case of swapping the crystals over,and using the screws from the other. 

I couldn't get the light right to pick up the black dial,as there was to much reflection,so it looks a bit grey in the picture,but its jet black in reality.

Smiths Empire,number on the movement reads: 539m-------1953 maybe.


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## AlanJohn

Nice one Sam. I have a Empire Ingersoll and Smiths too.


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## sam.

AlanJohn said:


> Nice one Sam. I have a Empire Ingersoll and Smiths too.


Thanks Alan,its still going well. :sweatdrop:

Btw That Radiolite according to the list is dated 1918-1919 (possibly my Grandfathers birth year) 

I've just won online,my first fully working Hallmarked Solid Silver pocket watch dated 1918 London,can't wait for that one to arrive.

In a friends loft i have a silver hallmarked pocket watch chain,belonging to possibly my Great Great Great Grandfather,i'm not sure how many Greats till i see the hallmarks,i do remember each link is stamped.I'd love to pair it with the watch,but its miles away in Basingstoke along with some other stuff i need to get,hopefully soon i'll take the plunge and drive up there.


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## AlanJohn

sam. said:


> AlanJohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice one Sam. I have a Empire Ingersoll and Smiths too.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Alan,its still going well. :sweatdrop:
> 
> Btw That Radiolite according to the list is dated 1918-1919 (possibly my Grandfathers birth year)
> 
> I've just won online,my first fully working Hallmarked Solid Silver pocket watch dated 1918 London,can't wait for that one to arrive.
> 
> In a friends loft i have a silver hallmarked pocket watch chain,belonging to possibly my Great Great Great Grandfather,i'm not sure how many Greats till i see the hallmarks,i do remember each link is stamped.I'd love to pair it with the watch,but its miles away in Basingstoke along with some other stuff i need to get,hopefully soon i'll take the plunge and drive up there.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information on the Radiolite Sam. That was a nice bit of luck winning the silver vintage watch, you jammy so-and-so 

I would be motoring up to Basingstoke I was you to get that chain.


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## sam.

AlanJohn said:


> sam. said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlanJohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice one Sam. I have a Empire Ingersoll and Smiths too.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Alan,its still going well. :sweatdrop:
> 
> Btw That Radiolite according to the list is dated 1918-1919 (possibly my Grandfathers birth year)
> 
> I've just won online,my first fully working Hallmarked Solid Silver pocket watch dated 1918 London,can't wait for that one to arrive.
> 
> In a friends loft i have a silver hallmarked pocket watch chain,belonging to possibly my Great Great Great Grandfather,i'm not sure how many Greats till i see the hallmarks,i do remember each link is stamped.I'd love to pair it with the watch,but its miles away in Basingstoke along with some other stuff i need to get,hopefully soon i'll take the plunge and drive up there.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for the information on the Radiolite Sam. That was a nice bit of luck winning the silver vintage watch, you jammy so-and-so
> 
> I would be motoring up to Basingstoke I was you to get that chain.
Click to expand...

I would love to go up there Alan,but the person who's loft it is,has had a number of heart attacks over the last few years,and is in poor health,and i can't ask her if i can come up and go through her loft at the moment,but she has assured me,that when she is feeling up to it,she will get it down for me.

She told me there were many other things there to,like an old penny that my Grandfather shot with his gun,so that the penny is now shaped like the bullet that hit it.

I thought i'd lost it all until she rang me about it last year,i'd left it all there for safekeeping and forgot about it. :huh:

BTW that new(old) silver watch keeps time for 40 hours till it stops,well pleased with that.


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## AlanJohn

Nice to know your silver watch is going so well Sam. Hope you are able to get your hands on the chain sooner rather than later.


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