# Hamilton Electric Early 500 Movement Trip Wires



## Larry from Calgary

"Silver Hawk, on 04 January 2010 - 09:49 AM, said: The response from RenÃ© is really bad news...someone needs to get some of these wires made."

"I agree, not good news at all. We all knew it was going to happen......... that one day the 50 year old left over stock would run out."

Okay so what's next? Will this force the price of the early Hamilton Electrics up or will it force the prices down? I can see a valid point in predicting either way.

Will it cause sales of non-runners on eBay to decline? Myself, I will be less inclined to pay very much now for a non-running Hamilton with a 500 movement as it's engine. How about you?

What are your thoughts?

h34r:


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## watchnutz

Good question, Larry. My thought at the moment is definately no non runners and will probably think very hard on runners even. My thought being if it becomes a non runner and can't be fixed then what will it be worth? Right now I have a non running Victor 500 that will be going on vacation and I hope the trip wires are OK.


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## Larry from Calgary

:dontgetit:

The lack of available spares is something to think about. I've already gone through and segregated possible "movement donors" in my small collection. Typically they are those which are more readily available or those that are perceived to have less value than others.

It may be that a working, and recently serviced 500 movement will become quite expensive. That of course brings up another question. How long will a running movement will keep on running?

There seems to be more movements for sale on eBay "as-is" or for parts.

This all makes my brain wobble


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## watchnutz

The other thought is that if it is a model that was later made with a 505 also, a donor movement of those could be used. Of course that would change the provenance of serial numbers but at least have a working watch. Not as bad as Hamilton having subbed quartz when they ran out.

Of course the next worry is when will the supply of replacement contacts for the 505 run out.


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## mel

What's involved? is commissioning a quantity of replacements a viable option - as a supplier of these, would you have large enough numbers of enthusiasts scrabbling to buy from you - or do you reckon Msieu Rene has already done work on such a move and found it prohibitive costwise? :lookaround:

There has to be a company somewhere clever enough to make these, andf probably (in real terms) cheaper than they were originally, albeit maybe in Chinasia somewwhere - look at all the aftermarket stuff they make for RolOmegLing and others. :yes:


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## Silver Hawk

Maybe we've been in this position for sometime and never realized it. To the best of my knowledge, NOS 500 trip and contact wires have never been available on the open market in the last 10 years; i.e. since I've been collecting, I have never seen NOS ones for sale.

So if I need to repair the wires of a 500, it has always been by using a good donor watch. When did RenÃ© last use a set of NOS wires? I've no idea but it could have been years ago. I'm now in the position where I'm hanging on to the few sets of good, but used, wires that I have for my own watches.

Buying a non-running 500 has always been risky and potentially expensive. I always try to get a photo that includes the wires but that is no guarantee. Many wires look ok but the crucial silver cone welded on the end of the contact wire is often missing or worn so low that its useless...and you cannot see this part on an assembled watch. The cone also falls off sometimes during cleaning.

It's not that the wires wear out in my experience, but rather they get so easily damaged by careless owners during battery changes. The 500 was a poor design in this respect; the 500A addressed this issue to some extend. Even the slightest contact with the wires upsets their alignment and then the troubles start with inexperienced people meddling with them... So many 500s have wires bent, mangled, missing. So I will look after my 500s...running & wearing them occasionally...and I'm sure they will last a long time.

I'd have no hesitation carrying out 500-to-505 conversions on those models that spanned the 500, 500A and 505 movements lifespans such as the Pacer. Bill, I think we're a long way off from running out of NOS 505 D-pins and Z-pins; if you know who to go to, they can still be bought. I have about 50 in stock.

Mel, I know RenÃ© had considered having 500 contact and trip wires made sometime in the past....but it never got anywhere.

End of my rambling!


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## watchnutz

Paul, I think Jay Cline was looking into it and working with someone, but don't think anything came of it. Haven't seen or heard anything from him in a very long time.


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## josh A

You know I've never actually seen the other end of one of these wires. Does anyone have a photo of the business end of these trip wires? If they are simple enough it seems someone could make something similar.

-Josh


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## martinus_scriblerus

Our very own Harleymanstan is planning to meet with Rene Rondeau at an NAWCC event going on right now in Florida. I have asked him to put contact wires on the agenda. I am certainly prepared to entertain funding the project.

I will keep you posted if I have any positive news.


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## Larry from Calgary

martinus_scriblerus said:


> Our very own Harleymanstan is planning to meet with Rene Rondeau at an NAWCC event going on right now in Florida. I have asked him to put contact wires on the agenda. I am certainly prepared to entertain funding the project.
> 
> I will keep you posted if I have any positive news.


Any update on this? :cool2:

Kinda reminds me of the early MGTC craze in the 80's. There was a huge demand for spares and a number of shops did rebuild some hard to find parts like brake drums, etc, but even these were limited production runs. Now, 20+years later we're back to where we started......no parts or if you can find them, they are becoming very expensive.


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## FuriousPig

I do find it odd that production of these wires is cost prohibitive.

Surely when you factor in that a 500 movement watch is worth considerably less when not working, that people are willing to pay large amounts for a suitable donor movement & that purists would always prefer the original movement over any replacement; then you would think it would take little time to recoup the initial outlay.

My fear is that while the current situation continues less collectable electrics are being destroyed to preserve the highly sought after pieces. I am guilty of this myself. The chances of these cannibalised watches ever returning to service seem incredibly remote.

I would happily put my money where my mouth is & invest in such a venture.

(Written with a tear in my eye as my 500 Victor refuses to start after hibernation.)


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## martinus_scriblerus

Larry from Calgary said:


> martinus_scriblerus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our very own Harleymanstan is planning to meet with Rene Rondeau at an NAWCC event going on right now in Florida. I have asked him to put contact wires on the agenda. I am certainly prepared to entertain funding the project.
> 
> I will keep you posted if I have any positive news.
> 
> 
> 
> Any update on this? :cool2:
> 
> Kinda reminds me of the early MGTC craze in the 80's. There was a huge demand for spares and a number of shops did rebuild some hard to find parts like brake drums, etc, but even these were limited production runs. Now, 20+years later we're back to where we started......no parts or if you can find them, they are becoming very expensive.
Click to expand...

I did correspond with Rene a year ago on this, but with no good news. He's on this forum periodically. I will ask him if he'd mind answering this one directly.


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## Silver Hawk

martinus_scriblerus said:


> I did correspond with Rene a year ago on this, but with no good news.


I think we have all corresponded with RenÃ© on this....if we pester him enough, he'll have to get some made...


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## mel

Mind you Paul, the second it becomes known that somebody has NEW STOCK of this part - watch the price of Hamilton 500 powered watches on 'terbay go out of the window 

I look at 'em and tink, I could about afford one, then I think, But there's this problem with the contact wires - and it might not be working :sadwalk:


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## hamiltonelectric

I know I've posted about this in the past, but it may have been on a different forum. Or maybe just in emails. Or maybe I dreamed it..... Anyway, this is indeed a problem for all the reasons stated by multiple posters.

I have no doubt that new ones could be made. The Chinese seem to be capable of knocking off anything imaginable. The question is -- would it be worth the investment? These are very complex for such seemingly simple pieces of wire. A well-equipped company working in micro-electronics could surely reverse-engineer it but I am sure that the cost would be high, and also that the minimum production requirements would be far more than even very long-term demand would call for. It would require a significant investment on someone's part. I suspect, however, that eventually it will happen. The stock of existing parts is finite, and shrinking. Demand for these watches is growing. Someone will no doubt decide it's worth the investment, but I suspect that person won't be me as I will be retired by then.

Twelve years ago I found my stock of battery clamps for the 505 to have reached critically small amounts, while the number of watches coming in with broken clamps was skyrocketing. That was, not coincidentally, the time when Energizer changed the shape of their 301 and made it too thick to fit like the original. The strain on the clamp was more than the fragile T-shaped end could withstand. I decided I had no choice but to have some made. It was a true ordeal to find anyone willing to take on such a minor yet complex project. I finally did locate a machine shop willing to make new blueprints based on an original, manufacture a cutting die to form a blank, and a forming die to shape it. The minimum order was 1,000 pieces. It was very expensive per piece, and very, very expensive as an investment. Even charging $15, as I do when I need to replace one, I doubt I have broken even after all those years. But that was an instance where I had no choice -- there was absolutely no fallback position.

For 500 wires, I do have the same fallback everyone else does: sacrificing a lesser watch to keep a rarer one going. As noted, this will ultimately lead to a lot of 'common' watches becoming rather hard to find. I don't think I've found a set of NOS wires for almost 20 years. I can remember buying two sets at a show in Reno, I really think that was the last time. I'd been running ads in Horological Times for several years previously, and had bought up just about all the old stocks of parts around. I was in good shape for a while but over time my spares have been depleted.

I do not foresee any problem with 505 contacts for a while, fortunately.


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## Silver Hawk

hamiltonelectric said:


> Someone will no doubt decide it's worth the investment


I'm trying to work out when (or if) that might happen. At the end of the day, Hamilton Electrics are not expensive when compared with the likes of Rolex, Omega, etc. and some of the most sought after models, like Altairs, run on the 505 anyway.

So is there a danger that it will never be cost effective to have these wires made? As a 500 dies, owners might put them to one side in the hope that a repair (new wires) can take place at some point in the future...but that time never comes or the watch is lost / replaced etc etc etc. I guess prices will need to go a lot higher before it becomes a viable proposition.

How many watch repairers do you think undertake 500 repairs? :huh:


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## mel

Silver Hawk said:


> How many watch repairers do you think undertake 500 repairs? :huh:


We know one who *can* :lol:

I'll take an extra TICKET on the numbers this weekend, if it comes up with the big six, you can get down to finding a maker, I'll BACK IT WITH THE DOSH! :yes:


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## martinus_scriblerus

mel said:


> Silver Hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many watch repairers do you think undertake 500 repairs? :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> We know one who *can* :lol:
> 
> I'll take an extra TICKET on the numbers this weekend, if it comes up with the big six, you can get down to finding a maker, I'll BACK IT WITH THE DOSH! :yes:
Click to expand...

Mel:

Aren't you just going to sell your collection of Timex watches to finance this?


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## hamiltonelectric

Silver Hawk said:


> How many watch repairers do you think undertake 500 repairs? :huh:


An excellent question.... I am personally aware of only two in the US, including myself. There was someone else but I don't know if he's active now; I haven't heard from or of him in years. I also know two in the UK, including Silver Hawk. His counterpart is pretty much retired from the hobby, however, and isn't actively doing it anymore.

I hear occasionally of old-time watchmakers who are still capable of doing a good job with them, but I gather that it's a hit-or-miss proposition finding someone with the knowledge or experience. These people are under most collectors' radar. More often I encounter situations where someone attempts to do it but has not mastered it to the point of getting a watch to run reliably. The adjustments are pretty unforgiving.

Lord knows I've seen plenty of "recently serviced" watches on eBay that are visibly in poor adjustment, or which are described as running dramatically fast or slow, with the claim that such terrible timekeeping is "normal" for these watches.


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## mel

martinus_scriblerus said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Silver Hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many watch repairers do you think undertake 500 repairs? :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> We know one who *can* :lol:
> 
> I'll take an extra TICKET on the numbers this weekend, if it comes up with the big six, you can get down to finding a maker, I'll BACK IT WITH THE DOSH! :yes:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mel:
> 
> Aren't you just going to sell your collection of Timex watches to finance this?
Click to expand...

If I did, I don't honestly think it would cover it, but of course the main prob is no-one has done any kind of reliable costing of such a project. There's little point in having parts made at (say) around Â£50 a pair for a watch that's worth say Â£70 to Â£90 - but it would be worth it if the watch were to end up worth Â£700 to Â£900 :yes:


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## EddyW

Silver Hawk said:


> hamiltonelectric said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone will no doubt decide it's worth the investment
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to work out when (or if) that might happen. At the end of the day, Hamilton Electrics are not expensive when compared with the likes of Rolex, Omega, etc. and some of the most sought after models, like Altairs, run on the 505 anyway.
> 
> So is there a danger that it will never be cost effective to have these wires made? As a 500 dies, owners might put them to one side in the hope that a repair (new wires) can take place at some point in the future...but that time never comes or the watch is lost / replaced etc etc etc. I guess prices will need to go a lot higher before it becomes a viable proposition.
> 
> How many watch repairers do you think undertake 500 repairs?
Click to expand...

Hello

Sorry to ask but. What are these Trip wires,?? The 500 movement is self explanatory but It's the wires that are confusing me. Again obviously part of the movement and

If I know what to look out for on my shopping trips, you never know!!

Thanks Edd


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## harleymanstan

EddyW said:


> Silver Hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hamiltonelectric said:
> 
> 
> 
> Someone will no doubt decide it's worth the investment
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to work out when (or if) that might happen. At the end of the day, Hamilton Electrics are not expensive when compared with the likes of Rolex, Omega, etc. and some of the most sought after models, like Altairs, run on the 505 anyway.
> 
> So is there a danger that it will never be cost effective to have these wires made? As a 500 dies, owners might put them to one side in the hope that a repair (new wires) can take place at some point in the future...but that time never comes or the watch is lost / replaced etc etc etc. I guess prices will need to go a lot higher before it becomes a viable proposition.
> 
> How many watch repairers do you think undertake 500 repairs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hello
> 
> Sorry to ask but. What are these Trip wires,?? The 500 movement is self explanatory but It's the wires that are confusing me. Again obviously part of the movement and
> 
> If I know what to look out for on my shopping trips, you never know!!
> 
> Thanks Edd
Click to expand...

Hi Edd,

If you look at the movement, the wires are easy to see. They go from the two posts near where it says "500" to under the balance wheel.










harleymanstan


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## mel

The spare ticket on the numbers came up guys -* but with one number **ONLY* - so it's back to square one till next week :lol: All I got was the number 40 :sadwalk:


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## Silver Hawk

hamiltonelectric said:


> Silver Hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many watch repairers do you think undertake 500 repairs? :huh:
> 
> 
> 
> An excellent question.... I am personally aware of only two in the US, including myself. There was someone else but I don't know if he's active now; I haven't heard from or of him in years. I also know two in the UK, including Silver Hawk. His counterpart is pretty much retired from the hobby, however, and isn't actively doing it anymore.
> 
> I hear occasionally of old-time watchmakers who are still capable of doing a good job with them, but I gather that it's a hit-or-miss proposition finding someone with the knowledge or experience. These people are under most collectors' radar. More often I encounter situations where someone attempts to do it but has not mastered it to the point of getting a watch to run reliably. The adjustments are pretty unforgiving.
> 
> Lord knows I've seen plenty of "recently serviced" watches on eBay that are visibly in poor adjustment, or which are described as running dramatically fast or slow, with the claim that such terrible timekeeping is "normal" for these watches.
Click to expand...

Reply is much appreciated...but it's quite sad really since at least two people (you and I) who repair these things are not likely to invest the time and money in looking at getting new wires made. You've had the 505 clips made and I've had small batches of parts made for 1930s motorcycles in the past...so I know how much work this can take  .


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## feenix

Perhaps start a collectors club, and ask for donations from members/owners until it is seen as affordable (perhaps offer an incentive whereby donors get one to keep as a spare, or a discounted/guaranteed price in the future?)


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## mel

Feenix, I think the snag is that the only guys with enough knowledge to source these just don't have the time to try finding someone who can do what is required - me? I've never even seen one in real life, so I wouldn't know where to start.







Off the top of my head - here's the obvious things

First off - what's the guage of wire, then what's the composition of the material. Does it need to be bi-metallic? Does it need to be non-ferrous? what length is it (or they - are the two different?  ) Was the original in metric or AWG or SWG? and what size and shape are the silver cones at the ends? What's the material these are made of? How are they attaached to the end of the wires, soldered, friction fit? If soldered would the composition of the solder affect operation? How much "spring" is there needed in the finished item? Packaging - used in pairs, so two at a time would be logical.

And that's just from observation of pictures, I'm pretty sure Paul or Stan or Rene could come up with things on top of that I couldn't begin to think of :yes: Reverse engineering something that you've only got a few of that *may not be viable* is a nightmare, :wallbash: I've done it at work


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## Silver Hawk

I might spend some time developing some technical drawings of these things...if I do, I'll post them for comment.


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## cburnett

Hello:

As a new member I am not permitted (so it seems) to view profiles and contact other members with private messages so please forgive me for making this post merely to contact other members. I am interested in contacting two members: Silver Hawk and Pin Pallet. Their previous posts on the subject of Hamilton Electrics suggests that we may have some mutual interests. If these two members would be so kind as to send me an Email message at: caburnett1(Ampersand sign)comcast(Period)net I will immediately contact them by return message. I have adjusted my address to avoid the spam folks so please make the appropriate adjustments when send me a reply.

Thanks


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## feenix

Silverhawk can be contacted directly through the email link on his website http://www.electric-watches.co.uk/


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## FuriousPig

Curses, I thought, for one glorious moment, something had happened on this subject


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