# Ot - Will An 110V Electric Clock Work With A Step Down Transformer?



## Andy the Squirrel (Aug 16, 2009)

Sorry for being a bit off topic, but will an American 110v electric wall clock work on UK mains with a step down transformer?


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

I guess it would depend whether the clock used mains frequency to keep time or not.

I think US mains frequency is 60hz while UK is 50hz, so, if the clock uses the mains frequency to keep time, I'd expect that you'd need to buy a step-down transformer that also converted the frequency. Not sure if such a beast exists?


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## Andy the Squirrel (Aug 16, 2009)

Who. Me? said:


> I guess it would depend whether the clock used mains frequency to keep time or not.
> 
> I think US mains frequency is 60hz while UK is 50hz, so, if the clock uses the mains frequency to keep time, I'd expect that you'd need to buy a step-down transformer that also converted the frequency. Not sure if such a beast exists?


Yea, that's what i'm wondering too, surely the main frequency isn't good enough for time keeping?


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## foztex (Nov 6, 2005)

Andy the Squirrel said:


> Who. Me? said:
> 
> 
> > I guess it would depend whether the clock used mains frequency to keep time or not.
> ...


I too would worry that the frequency would need to be 60Hz. The mains frequency is actually extremely accurate and is kept that way as it is used for timing (AC motor speeds for example) and also is extremely important when running 3-phase mains in industrial applications. It's the voltage they let wander all over the place.

Perhaps the clock has enough adjustment to make up the difference if it does depend on mains for timing?

Andy


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

The simple answer is most likely NO! Sorry, but almost every 110v item that has a "motor" of some kind inside will depend to some extent on the 60 cycle mains to keep it's regulation in some way, however, to qualify that slightly, more recent (within say the the last ten years) manufacture will maybe work without problems. :yes:

Older stuff will maybe run off time, or run very hot - to the point of burning out the motor wiring or may refuse to start. Note also that you might well need what's called an "auto transformer" where the input current and output current is the same, but higher than the current required by the clock, and only the voltage is stepped down : :blink:

A suitable transformer, even without the 60Hz problem is likely to cost many times what the clock would cost you, and whilst transistorised solutions are available (custom made) the cost would again be prohibitive. h34r:

There are all sorts of techie reasons why this is so, but you really need a fair amount of leccie knowledge to understand the problems and possible solutions 

As mains generation kit is "replaced" there is a gradual trend towards standardisation on 234v heading towards 230v to bring us in line with European DIN standards.

*FINALLY,* please remember that messing around with mains voltage wiring can prove *fatal*, even in such a small item as a clock

Basically, if you have to ask, you don't have enough knowledge to do it! Working within the Electricity supply industry, I've seen the results of too little knowledge









(Mel - ex licensed up to 400kv, now retired)


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

mel said:


> (Mel - ex licensed up to 400kv, now retired)


Mel:

Is the fact that you are an electrician the thing that attracted you to electric watches?


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

martinus_scriblerus said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> > (Mel - ex licensed up to 400kv, now retired)
> ...


Martinus - not really, I just prefer mechanical and electro-mechanical items to solid state items - solid state has no "beating heart" :grin:

And, I'm a wee bit more than an electrician - Oh dear yes! Working at extreme high voltages (in the UK and elsewhere) requires extra care - voltages at distribution levels can "jump" across distances up to 3 metres and more - scary, and more importantly, requiring continuous risk assessment to preserve life and the lives of those working for or with you. :fear:

My main job in the Electricity Industry was "Test and Protection", troubleshooting, testing and ensuring safety and monitoring of the EHV distribution systems throughout the country, protecting the both public and the employees of the company. An unsung job, but one that needs extra skills and knowledges to deal with voltages above 10Kv (10,000V) and then up to 400Kv. Extra exams are taken and licenses need to be issued to work at these levels without danger. :yes:

And as a hobby, I was into Ham Radio - - Oh the talents of the man! :clap:


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

mel said:


> martinus_scriblerus said:
> 
> 
> > mel said:
> ...


Not to mention cutting a fine figure on the dance floor!!!


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## don natel (Mar 13, 2009)

You never cease to amaze me big fella! :fear:


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Mel my old man is a sparky and he always says it's not the volts you need to worry about it's the amps. Is this true? And what's the difference in mains voltage and the sort of voltage from a cars high tension ignition system, I've had dozens of "zaps" from HT coils over the years at around 60,000V and am still here to tell the tale!


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Paul, yes, your Dad is a sensible Sparky - and tell him I said to keep his hand in his pocket - he'll know what I mean :lol:

Volts and current at mains are inter-related, but it is current that is often fatal. Basically, and very simplistically, either you will provide a path to earth and the volts and current will pass through your body from the point of contact to earth or ground - OR - you will "get across" the mains and the volts and current will pass say, from arm to arm. If you think about it, that means it's pretty well certain it will pass through or near the heart and it's muscles, disturbing the rythm or stopping the heart alltogether - *FATAL*

Don't try that at home. The saying is "Volts Jolts, but Mills *Kills*" mainly because even a relatively small current can cause death h34r: The difference with car EHT circuits and mains is the often the amount of current available. An average house is wired with a number of sockets capable of supplying 13Amps each at 230V - the way the wiring is arranged actually means each socket can in fact supply up to 35Amps or so - 'cos they're not all in use at any one time, and they are protected by individual fuses, and fed by a ring circuit.

In a car, the EHT circuits generate up to 60Kv or more with some electronic ignitions, and also it's unlikely you are providing a path across or to ground for more than microseconds if at all.

At distribution levels (what the public calls pylons and overhead wires), not only is the voltage extremely high, but also so is the current available comparatively speaking. It's not uncommon for Swans and Geese to fly into these when migrating and literally end up crisped across the overheads. Unfortunately, this can also happen when zero intelligence "I can climb that" youngsters try to climb the masts in a show of bravado. Taking down a youngsters body from something like this is not a pleasant task, and it's normal to ask for a volunteer(s) from the climbing team. Said volunteer(s) is immediately given counselling and time off to recover - we try to so this as sensitively and quickly as possible for the relatives, but on my last one there were 11 of us in tears - not ashamed to admit this - we are only human and most have kids of their own.

Doom and gloom , I know, but I cannot stress enough - Don't mess with electrics if you don't know exactly what you're doing, even in a small clock!









Incidentally, batteries are not as safe as you might think - a piece of steel wool placed across the contacts of a PP3 9v battery (as used in pocket transistor radios etc) will burst into flames, and if you want a deformed spanner, dropping it onto a fully charged car battery won't half help :fear:


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

one of he worst car fires I saw was in an old leyland mini, battery in the boot floor, the guy had removed the cover and the carpet exposing the battery. The only thing he had in the boot was a steel 1 gallon fuel can with approx half a pint of petrol in it so it was full of vapour.

You can guess the rest!

Sorry for drifting fftopic: Andy, are you gonna find a nice 240v clock then?


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## gaz64 (May 5, 2009)

mel said:


> Paul, yes, your Dad is a sensible Sparky - and tell him I said to keep his hand in his pocket - he'll know what I mean :lol:
> 
> Volts and current at mains are inter-related, but it is current that is often fatal. Basically, and very simplistically, either you will provide a path to earth and the volts and current will pass through your body from the point of contact to earth or ground - OR - you will "get across" the mains and the volts and current will pass say, from arm to arm. If you think about it, that means it's pretty well certain it will pass through or near the heart and it's muscles, disturbing the rythm or stopping the heart alltogether - *FATAL*
> 
> ...


Mel I found this pylons are you a member


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

gaz64 said:


> Mel I found this pylons are you a member


No, I'm not - where's me anorak and notepad, Dear - the one I used to have for the trainspotting and then used for the Eddie Stobbart's ? ? :lol:

Really, it's gob-smacking what there is on t'internet? You can enter just about anything and come up with a website for it


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Oh now you've done it, litlun has been facinated by Eddie Stobbart lorries since I pointed out to her each one had a different girls name on it. Every time we see one ahead of us I have to pass it as slowly as possible to see if it's Caitlin Lily 

Don't you love the way threads on here swerve all over the place? I thought the mods were gonna put a stop to it h34r:


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## Andy the Squirrel (Aug 16, 2009)

pg tips said:


> Sorry for drifting fftopic: Andy, are you gonna find a nice 240v clock then?


Well the clock im looking for is a late 70s Mickey Mouse Welby by Elgin that is shaped like a huge watch. The one ive had since a baby has a knackered quartz movement and the dial is faded. The American versions ive seen so far have electic movements. So im either going to have to find a new quartz movement that fits the hands or a 240v electic version (not sure if they did them). Dont want to spend a lot of money on it, its more sentamental that anything.


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## Defender (Jan 27, 2009)

What Mel says :clap:.

I know from some work I did in Power Stations some years ago that you can feel the charge from the power lines in the air .

I only work up to about 175,000 (175kV), so as far as Mel's concerned that's low voltage, it's also very low current, mA but you still have to be careful, especially of the bi-product, X-rays h34r:.


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## gaz64 (May 5, 2009)

mel said:


> gaz64 said:
> 
> 
> > Mel I found this pylons are you a member
> ...


C`mon.... admit it your tempted you just need someone else to pay the membership Mrs Mel could buy it you for Christmas


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Andy the Squirrel said:


> pg tips said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry for drifting fftopic: Andy, are you gonna find a nice 240v clock then?
> ...


Good luck with it, you won't find a 240v version I fear so you'll probably have to buy the 110v one just for a good dial and then as you say find a new qtz movement


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

I am not an electric authority, but I was told that in Canada (and I do not recall when - before my time), electricity delivered to consumers changed from (I think) 25hz to 60hz.

People had their old machines rewound (or something?) to reflect this change. One guy in my town was in charge of doing this for everyone. As I said, I only heard about this long after the event.

However, could this not be done for the clock (as it must have been done in Canada). I realize that you have to deal with the voltage and the frequency, but the voltage can easily be dealt with by using a voltage transformer.

What do the (older) electric gurus remember about events like the one I described? Is this conceivably a true story? Would this work for the clock?


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

martinus_scriblerus said:


> I am not an electric authority, but I was told that in Canada (and I do not recall when - before my time), electricity delivered to consumers changed from (I think) 25hz to 60hz.
> 
> People had their old machines rewound (or something?) to reflect this change. One guy in my town was in charge of doing this for everyone. As I said, I only heard about this long after the event.
> 
> ...


I just asked my folks about this. They told me the changeover took place in 1953 or 1954. A person would come to the house and change out motors in washing machines and so on.

Ominously, my mother said that if you had an electric clock they would just give you a new one and not even bother to try to fiddle with the old one.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

At a guess - and still swerving off topic, I'd reckon the 25 cycles to 60 cycles change in Canada would be a legacy from Canada being a colony at one time - North American systems use a type of distribution where there are two live lines and a "centre" zero V line - that gives two at 110V and houses are then picked off these lines alternately to keep the loads on the power station balanced. If that was the case and the original generation gear was "British Don'cha know" it would (eventually) generate 220 at 50 cycles which might have been split down to 110v 0v 110v and the cycles from 50 to 25 - but it's before my time and purely a guess as to how it was done. :yes:

The change to 60 cycles most likely was to allow interconnection with the USA system - you can't connect 50 cycles to 60 cycles without a large bang, h34r: and undoubtedly the US and Canada interconnect their National Systems in border areas - it's a back-up thing. We interconnect in Scotland between the Hydro Electric Board and the old South of Scotland Board, and in the south of England, there's an interconnector system into France and Europe. Those in Kent could well be using French electrickery - ee-haw, ee-haw Monsewers! :lol:


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