# By Accident



## Bergie (Jul 17, 2006)

I come across this forum purely by accident while searching for something completely different and although I do have an interest in watches, I simply adore Raymond Weil, my reason for joining is to reply to a statement made by "Stan" in the off topic section some time ago.

There was a discussion going on about one of your members buying some "stuff" which consisted mostly of WW2 items such as medals etc. but apparently there were some watches amongst the items. Predictably there were comments about the possibility of Hitlerâ€™s watch being amongst them, and also some discussion about how they might be sold on and the difficulties that could arise.

Stan expressed concern about the member with the goods being able to stomach the type of people who would be interested in such items. As a collector interested in this period of history I find that statement both insulting and disappointing.

As a moderator on collecting forum whos members embraces all walks of life this generalisation is indeed a great insult. We have collectors who are renown authors on the subject, high ranking members of military organisations and police forces, academics etc . etc. To the best of my knowledge none of these people are neo Nazi's or Holocaust revisionistâ€™s hell bent on restoring National Socialism or denying the existence of death camps. Like me they are determined to educate future generations about that pivotal period in our history when so many people died to free the world from oppression and mass murder. This can only be achieved by studying that period in history and by having a full understanding of what drove people to do what they did.

I do not deny that there are some people out there that would gloat and possibly worship over the personal items of Hitler, Himmler, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung etc etc. but these people are very much the exception and not the rule.

For anyone interested here is a watch that belonged to Adolf Hitler.

Hitler's pocket watch, given to him by his sister Angela and his nieces Friedl and Geli Raubal. Inscribed "to our beloved brother and uncle on his birthday, 20 April 1929, Angela, Geli and Friedl."


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## Bareges (Aug 18, 2005)

Hi Bergie,



> For anyone interested here is a watch that belonged to Adolf Hitler.
> 
> Hitler's pocket watch, given to him by his sister Angela and his nieces Friedl and Geli Raubal. Inscribed "to our beloved brother and uncle on his birthday, 20 April 1929, Angela, Geli and Friedl."


moral/ethical argument/discussion apart you have got yourself a great piece of history there.


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

Veeery interesting.....







.


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## Regal325 (Aug 5, 2005)

> my reason for joining is to reply to a statement made by "Stan" in the off topic section some time ago.


How very disappointing...

I would have hoped someone would join because of an interest in watches, rather than to start some kind of wrangle...still, thats life, I guess


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## r1ch (Feb 2, 2004)

Well hello!









I don't recall the thread in particular and to be honest I don't feel minded to search for it, but I would bet you've "read" too much into what was said. This is a great place to hang out and is frequented by a bunch of very right minded folk, Stan being one of them.

Gotta like your style for a first post though


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

I agree with Rich, interesting first post









Welcome, I think this topic will be interesting, it might belong in the politics forum but we will wait and see


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## Bergie (Jul 17, 2006)

Thank you all for your comments (yes even the negative ones) and believe me my post was not intended to start some kind of wrangle, I simply felt the need to voice my opinion on what I felt was an unfair generalisation.

I do have an "general" interest in watches, as I stated I tend to favour Raymond Weil and have a few Parsifal's that I enjoy looking at as much as wearing. Unfortunately my budget will not stretch to collecting high-end militaria and watches so for now my money goes on militaria.

Nevertheless I have thoroughly enjoyed reading through some of the post in the forum and will continue to do so now that I have found it, hoping of course I am not considered some sort of pariah or potentially belligerent hanger on.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Dont worry, weve had far worse belligerent hangers on









We like a reasoned debate too,


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## pugster (Nov 22, 2004)

i can understand how ppl would be offended by collectors of these items as by collecting such a mans personal effects they are keeping his memory alive which im sure many suvivors and there relatives would like to forget about, what ppl collect is up to themselves,someones views and collections will always upset someone else to some degree or other tho im sure most would see mass genocide a bit different from liking either tissot or omega- just a general observation on this mans place in history (some will say he should be forgot others that think hes a hero and yet others that think his memory should be kept alive to show what humanity can sink to).


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## Roger (May 17, 2003)

We often like a good wrangle


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## Bergie (Jul 17, 2006)

Hi Bareges,

Regrettably the watch in the picture is not mine, it resides in a museum in the US along with a few other personal items of Hitler's such as his spectacles and pill box etc. If this watch were ever to come up for auction most collectors agree that an estimate $150 to $250,000 would not be unreasonable, considering a teaspoon from his personal service recently made $2,000, with no guarantee he even used it.... unlike the watch.

The sad part about collecting this type of item is that personality related Nazi items will always realise much more than their Allied equivalent such as Churchillâ€™s Breguet. National loyalties and dismissing the fear of being labelled a Nazi aside.. if your investing in these watches go for the bad guys every time.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

I reckon my watches will be worth a fortune someday.


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

People in this generation will always have the question asked of them if they collect nazi memorabilia. It's healthy to challenge the reasons I suppose, there will no doubt be some strange people out there.

From a historical point of view I feel it is most important to preserve as much as possible from any period of history.

Many of these objects in private collections are on a slow journey to museums anyway, what is held in the mind of a few private collectors as they are passed on isn't really important in the great scheme of things. I would imagine that most people who collect along the lines of this theme are sound minded members of society with no baggage attached.


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## Bergie (Jul 17, 2006)

The vast majority of personal items of the major Nazi's do not reside in private hands, they are the property of Museums across the world (the Russians hold the largest collection of senior Nazi personal items followed by museums in the US) and most of these items are on public display.

The main reason these items are important is to remind us that these "devils" were real people, like you and me, people who valued expensive clothes, jewellery, cars, food, and all the other trivia that goes with success. When you can see a beautiful porcelain figurine, finely crafted and exquisitely decorated it come as shock to see a photo of it sitting on a desk in Himmlers study and to learn that it was crafted by a Jewish slave labourer who was destined to die.

This is not glorification but realisation, the realisation that power corrupted a nation, a nation of intelligent and freethinking individuals into a mass of hatred and murderous intent.

Hitler was, like Napoleon, physically quite small and insignificant and Himmler, leader of the Aryan master race (the SS) was also very unassuming physically. This can only be understood if we are afforded the opportunity to gaze upon the items they used and wore while alive.

As in all walks of life there are those who would worship these items in some insane belief that their owners will reincarnate and finish what they started and herein lies the danger, without allowing people to view these things, to encourage them to try and understand what happened and why, the fear is there may come a time when their evil work will be resumed by those who do not understand because the means of doing so was denied them.

OK, a little melodramatic maybe, nevertheless, future generations must be encouraged to understand and appreciate the past and, most importantly, learn to detect the signs and not to repeat it.

Remember, the British invented the concentration camp the Germans simply perfected it.


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## Bergie (Jul 17, 2006)

I should point out that I don't collect German militaria my interest lies in US militaria from WW1 to Korea.

Don't know if anyone is interested but here is part of my collection..... after this I promise that any more posts I make will be about watches!


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Bergie said:


> Remember, the British invented the concentration camp the Germans simply perfected it.


Not that old nutmeg







now I know what type of Bergie you are









Bobbejaan klim die berg, so haastig en so lastig


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

http://www.rltwatches.co.uk/forums/index.p...ic=4026&hl=

This is the thread that has caused so much "upset". It seems I may be guilty of having a joke with Neil.

Sorry if I victimized any collectors of Nazi memorabilia.


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

But that was over 2 years ago.









BTW I had some Ruskies with the faces of Stalin and Hitler on the dial, shaking hands, or was it Hitler and Mao, or Hitler and Pol Pot, I can't remember, Hitler and somebody anyway. Anywaaay I felt a little uncomfortable with them and banged them on Ebay, people fought over them







It's a funny old world.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

MarkF said:


> But that was over 2 years ago.


Yep.


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

Stan said:


> I reckon my watches will be worth a fortune someday.


Do you mind if we don't use petrol for your funeral pyre







?

Â£1 a litre







 .


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

raketakat said:


> Stan said:
> 
> 
> > I reckon my watches will be worth a fortune someday.
> ...


Some old newspapers and a fag end will do fine Ian.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

potz said:


> Some SA friends and colleagues have been trying to teach me some Afrikaans so I can talk to Rudi properly


Here's an important one for when Rudi exerecises the Ridgeback's well developed flatulence abilities.

YUSSUS RUDI ....... (potz pointing out of the room) ..... VOETSEK

He will understand


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Stan said:


> raketakat said:
> 
> 
> > Stan said:
> ...


I must insist on the newspapers being "proper" ones, I mean the Mancy Gruaniad etc, of course.









Who would be charged with applying the fag end to the newspaper?









Sir Trevor McDonald is my first choice and Sandy Gall my second. Mr. Gall should have been honoured too for his consumate professionalism. 

Bloody fine journalists in my predjudiced opinion. 

Light my pyre gentlemen.


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

Stan said:


> Light my pyre gentlemen.


You're not going yet Stan







and if I keep puffing away I'll probably be gone afore yer. You can't depend on me to give you my butt














.


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## mad_librarian (Jan 30, 2005)

Bergie...just noticed...ace avatar!


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

raketakat said:


> Stan said:
> 
> 
> > Light my pyre gentlemen.
> ...


I'm not thinking of going just yet, not whilst the nasty buggers still do their tricks.









Thanks for the offer of your butt Ian but I think you will be needing it for sometime yet.

You don't have my permission to leave Ian.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Theres some interesting points in this thread that made me wonder about what some of the other recent collectables, that includes watches, have become. Whilst the ones with the Russian and Chinese leaders on have been mentioned there are quite a few Saddam watches on ebay... this type of item is of course a soft touch to a dictator. Quite what stament it means when you wear a saddam watch i dont know, so I assume people keep them in a cabinet... im not sure why youd do that either tho.

A bit closer perhaps to this thread and in a similar vein to the helmet collection shown earlier, are the real milwatches. whos to say these ever saw action but indeed many of these used in war zones will have been bloodied. I dont think people collect them because of that but its made me think to ask the question....

Steve264 and I were chatting about the B-uhr today and I guess you could level an argument that an original B-uhr is responsible for many hundreds (or even thousands) of civilian deaths since this was the main item of technology that the bomb aimers used in WW2 to determine the exact moment to drop their bombs on cities like London and Coventry etc. So why do I still want one...? Personally I think its a masterpeice of design and an ultimate tool watch and hadnt considered the downside until now...

I find the German press reports of the national pride interesting as well. The UK has some scary right wing groups out there who would have much to talk about with the Nazi groups who still exist round the world. So far the national pride hasnt caused too much grief in the UK but in other countries like Australia its been the subject of a race riots within the last year - its all rather sad.

Anyway this is an interesting topic. I like something that makes me think first thing in the morning.


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

My favourite 'kitler'







.


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

Vostok with Hitler and Stalin.










Vixa ME 109.

How do we feel about these







?


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## Nalu (Nov 28, 2003)

The ME109 was one hell of a machine in its day, not so sure about the VIXA. However I am sure Bergies picture of my Commander-in-Chief is OB for a watch forum


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

The Me109 was indeed an amazing machine. Sadly the last one to crash killed one of the best pilots I had the pleasure to know - it happened in Spain only a couple of years back. RIP Mark Hannah.


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## Bareges (Aug 18, 2005)

JonW said:


> The Me109 was indeed an amazing machine. Sadly the last one to crash killed one of the best pilots I had the pleasure to know - it happened in Spain only a couple of years back. RIP Mark Hannah.


Mark Hannah - ex memorial flight and a variety of other "special" flights ? One of the acknowledged experts on flying WWII aircraft ...............There can only be one and I believe that he was a well known and like regular air show/display visitor here in Jersey. A sad loss.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Bareges said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > The Me109 was indeed an amazing machine. Sadly the last one to crash killed one of the best pilots I had the pleasure to know - it happened in Spain only a couple of years back. RIP Mark Hannah.
> ...


Indeed, the same. And a great bloke to boot. He was landing and thats one of the few times the Me109 is dangerous (well from the cockpit - its dangerous all the time if youre the enemy!) as like most fighter aircraft its unstable so as to give it good handling. The plane caught a crosswind that pushed the plane into the ground - it was shown on the BBC news and round the world that day. Mark survived the crash but died a few days later from his injuries. It was very sad indeed. His dad (Ray) still runs The Old Flying Machine Company but Ive not worked with them for many years now. Nice folk tho.

For anyone who wants to see Mark in action, there is a Discovery program about the OFMC's Spitfire MH-434 and in that Ray teaches Mark to fly the Spitfire.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Ive deleted the picture of Bush/Hitler......

No debate please...

Please no more in a similar vein either, this topic is borderline for the politics forum anyway.....


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## Bareges (Aug 18, 2005)

Jon,



> His dad (Ray) still runs The Old Flying Machine Company but Ive not worked with them for many years now


Ray Hannah, one of the truly "great" modern (?) pilots of WWII aircraft and very well known and liked in the in the Channel Islands.............turned up for every year's Battle of Britain air display for many many years...............Spitfire I believe was his speciality.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Bareges said:


> Jon,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Charles, Yes Ray is amazing in his Spitfire.









I was almost tempted to buy one once... it was Â£100k and was in a shipping container, all it needed was a full restoration... and I think it was missing a tail wheel....


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## Bareges (Aug 18, 2005)

Hi Jon,



JonW said:


> Bareges said:
> 
> 
> > Jon,
> ...


That could have been a life changing labour of love!!

Â£100K probably looks like a good investment practically regardless of condition!


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

My Grandad was offered 'his' Spitty at the end of the war for 500 quid







( price of a house I expect then though)

At one of the Eagle Squadron reunions a few years ago he met a luftwaffe pilot who was 'given' a ME262 in the dying days of the war by his C.O for him to try to fly to his home in, the pilot swapped it for a motorbike


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## Bareges (Aug 18, 2005)

jasonm said:


> My Grandad was offered 'his' Spitty at the end of the war for 500 quid
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jase,

I'm sure there were all sorts of 'get you home' etc type deals being done with equipment in the dying moments of the war. Afterall with the war over what use was a beaten up aircraft going to be.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Â£100k would have just been the start tho... restoration would have been hundreds of thousands more...









I could have joined the Spitfire clock thread with ' heres mine, in situ...'









Actually thinking about it would you wanna be caught in an Me262 in the dying days of the war with the allies having air superiority? The bike sounds like a grand idea! Id have gone for that...


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## Bergie (Jul 17, 2006)

[What started out as me bitchin' about a two year old topic has turned into a very interesting discussion. The fact that one member has decided to question the purpose of a watch in relation to bombing is in itself positive.

The late Mark Hanna was indeed a terrific pilot and I had the pleasure of watching him fly a Spitfire in a mock battle with the ME109 Black 6, just prior to it's crash landing which consigned it to static display after 17 years of restoration. I believe we have also lost his father Ray that is another huge loss to historic aircraft restoration and display.

I am a little surprised just how sensitive some are here to a little political humour, I have another little gem of the Governor of the 51st State (Blair) which would have balanced things up but that would only have been deleted as well so there is little or no point.

OK, I'll ty this one.......

Photographed outside Dublin!


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

We have to be a bit careful bergie as this is a global forum,

We created a password protected forum for "sensitive topics" to avoid problems in the open forums.

Welcome to







btw.

My dad had a wwII luger which I believe came to him from an uncle who was in the army in the 40's but I think he sold it.


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

pg tips said:


> My dad had a wwII luger which I believe came to him from an uncle who was in the army in the 40's.......


Which regiment of the Vermarcht was his uncle in then?......


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## Bergie (Jul 17, 2006)

Thank you pg tips for the welcome, very much appreciated.

If I am to be totally honest my potential for valuable input as far as watches are concerned is extremely limited, I do love beautiful watches, I enjoy looking at them and wearing them but that would be just about the full extent of my knowledge.

Having said that I can see me developing my knowledge as time goes on, I can also see me enjoying the jokes and the protected forum where I believe I have much I could contribute.

On my other forums (militaria collecting and online gaming) I like to end some of my posts with a joke so I see no reason to change my style now, although I promise to keep them clean and politically correct until I gain access to the protected area (assuming of course that I do).

*A watermelon farmer was determined to scare off the local kids who went into his watermelon patch every night to eat their fill.*

After some thought, he made a sign that read, "WARNING! ONE OF THESE WATERMELONS HAS BEEN INJECTED WITH CYANIDE!"

He smiled smugly as he watched the kids run off the next night without eating any of his melons.

A week later, the farmer was surveying his field. To his satisfaction, no watermelons were missing, but a sign next to his read, "NOW THERE ARE TWO!"


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Here is my Grandads Spitfire MK V Smiths clock ( from his actual plane)









I had it serviced last year


















Your welcome to join the political forum anytime, you will have to email me at [email protected] to let me send you the password...


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

jasonm said:


> Your welcome to join the political forum anytime .....


As long as you don't post jokes ... especially old ones











jasonm said:


> Here is my Grandads Spitfire MK V Smiths clock ( from his actual plane)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great family heirloom Jason


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Thanks John, Im very proud of it


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## Steve264 (May 29, 2006)

jasonm said:


> Here is my Grandads Spitfire MK V Smiths clock ( from his actual plane)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That would look great on a pvd bracelet.









(no disrespect to your Grandad, just a whimsy)



JoT said:


> As long as you don't post jokes ... especially old ones


doh!


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## Steve264 (May 29, 2006)

JonW said:


> Theres some interesting points in this thread that made me wonder about what some of the other recent collectables, that includes watches, have become. Whilst the ones with the Russian and Chinese leaders on have been mentioned there are quite a few Saddam watches on ebay... this type of item is of course a soft touch to a dictator. Quite what stament it means when you wear a saddam watch i dont know, so I assume people keep them in a cabinet... im not sure why youd do that either tho.


All a bit of a puzzle really.



JonW said:


> A bit closer perhaps to this thread and in a similar vein to the helmet collection shown earlier, are the real milwatches. whos to say these ever saw action but indeed many of these used in war zones will have been bloodied. I dont think people collect them because of that but its made me think to ask the question....


I can't speak for anyone else, but for me an issue watch is a virtual connection to another human being who was reliant on this piece of engineering at a time in his life when its precision and reliability probably mattered to him far more than it will ever matter to me. In that sense, it's a manifestation of respect for another person. Much more about the man/machine relationship that the political fluctuations of war and peace. And given that soldiers generally are under orders they are bound to follow, I don't feel the need to differentiate between e.g. English and German WW2 artefacts. I would struggle to justify any affection for Waffen SS or other real Nazi stuff. That's dodgy territory for me.



JonW said:


> Steve264 and I were chatting about the B-uhr today and I guess you could level an argument that an original B-uhr is responsible for many hundreds (or even thousands) of civilian deaths since this was the main item of technology that the bomb aimers used in WW2 to determine the exact moment to drop their bombs on cities like London and Coventry etc. So why do I still want one...? Personally I think its a masterpeice of design and an ultimate tool watch and hadnt considered the downside until now...


As above, I don't feel a particular moral need to condemn the Luftwaffe any more than the RAF pilots who were carrying out orders.



JonW said:


> I find the German press reports of the national pride interesting as well. The UK has some scary right wing groups out there who would have much to talk about with the Nazi groups who still exist round the world. So far the national pride hasnt caused too much grief in the UK but in other countries like Australia its been the subject of a race riots within the last year - its all rather sad.


All that has far more to do with xenophobia than national pride - you can be proud in a very positive way, but xenophobia is all about the very worst aspects of tribal behaviour stripped of the more nurturing and protective drives to feed and protect the group. The kind of bigoted, hate-filled and violent behaviour exhibited by the neo-nazi white supremacist cretins is a sublimation of tribal mores into a narrow, exclusive and discriminatory obsession with "otherness". Why we (the English) are particularly prone to it is frustratingly hard to understand, but probably has a lot to do with i) the class system ii) lack of opportunity for the lower echelons of that class society and iii) an unusually high proportion of males in that social sector surviving beyond teenage due to the lack of large scale conflict that in previous generations would have sent them off to war (and, let's face it, death). Plus ludicrous expectations being set by the "bling" society, plus the compounding effect of the above on what is now probably three generations, at least two of which have seen widespread institutionalised unemployment as the norm.

stop me when I get depressing...



JonW said:


> Anyway this is an interesting topic. I like something that makes me think first thing in the morning.


Enjoy the cornflakes mate


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## Regal325 (Aug 5, 2005)

From another place:-

Nothing belonging to Hitler? (In-joke for RLT lurkers, there.)

_________________

Omega Seamaster Professional 2531.80

Seiko Marinemaster 300 SBDX001

Seiko Diver 200 SKX007

Seiko Diver 200 SKX009

Seiko Military SNK809

Seiko Dress SNM007

Perhaps we will enlighten them yet?? (well apart from the choice of watches perhaps














)


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

jasonm said:


> Thanks John, Im very proud of it


I love that one - great personal history too.











Steve264 said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > A bit closer perhaps to this thread and in a similar vein to the helmet collection shown earlier, are the real milwatches. whos to say these ever saw action but indeed many of these used in war zones will have been bloodied. I dont think people collect them because of that but its made me think to ask the question....
> ...


Ok makes sense to me... the closest I have to an Issued watch is the TSAR which wasnt really issued and in any case mine was originally bought sealed in its box.



Steve264 said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > Steve264 and I were chatting about the B-uhr today and I guess you could level an argument that an original B-uhr is responsible for many hundreds (or even thousands) of civilian deaths since this was the main item of technology that the bomb aimers used in WW2 to determine the exact moment to drop their bombs on cities like London and Coventry etc. So why do I still want one...? Personally I think its a masterpeice of design and an ultimate tool watch and hadnt considered the downside until now...
> ...


yes very true. Id still like an original B-uhr... I just like the dial design and size of it. the history wasnt at the forefront of my mind when I fell in love with the design. It is a great testament to the watch makers of the day that a tool watch or clock could be fitted in a machine that would suffer all manner of damage and poor treatment it would get during war.



Steve264 said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway this is an interesting topic. I like something that makes me think first thing in the morning.
> ...


Lol - I dont have breakfast... maybe thats why I eat RLT topics instead.... 



Regal325 said:


> From another place:-
> 
> Nothing belonging to Hitler? (In-joke for RLT lurkers, there.)


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