# Which Watches Have The Highest Bpm



## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

Am I right in thinking that a standard rolex will go at 28,000 bpm. What I want to know is, are there any watches that beat at say 40,000 - and that is it true that the more bpm the smoother the sweep ! Although might one sacrifice on reserve time as the watch requires more power to beat so many more times an hour.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

There are a few that beat at 36000.... known as 'hi beat' ....

Yes the higher the bpm the smoother the appearance of the seconds hand....


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## ollyhock (Feb 9, 2009)

el primero 36,000 i cant think of many others


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Pinched from Timezone:

..some interesting facts:

The beats per hour (BPH) are the number of half swings the balance wheel makes in an hour (i.e. from fully counter clockwise rotation to fully clockwise, or vice versa).

The "standard" beat movement is considered to be 18,000 bph, or five beats per second. The true fast beat is 36,000 bph, or 10 beats per second.

The advantage of a fast beat movement is that for a given percentage change in torque or power input, there is a small percentage change in balance amplitude (i.e. the "length" of the swing. For chronographs, fast beat movements allow the measure of smaller increments of time (at least theoretically).

A fast beat balance dissipates more energy and thus requires more torque in the form of a thicker spring. The thicker spring, however, has less even torque output over its wind. This offsets some of the advantage of the fast beat.

Favre-Leuba (working with a group of other manufacturers) experimented with a modified fast beat movement: the escape wheel had 21 teeth instead of 15; and the spring barrel had no cover allowing a taller (wider) spring. The balance was of reduced thickness (cross section), only 0.35mm. This watch provided accuracy comparable to an Accutron tuning fork watch. (Barrels with only a lower bearing and no upper bearing, with or without covers, are called "floating" barrels.)

Testing 400 otherwise identical movements supplied by Girard Perregaux, Favre-Leuba obtained the following comparative figures on 21,600 and 36,000 bph movements (200 at each speed): Mean variation: 1.1 and 0.7 (21.6 and 36.0 respectively) Greatest Departure: 2.4 and 1.6 Positional Variation: 4.8 and 2.1

The superiority of the fast beat movements is attributed partly to a smaller drop in amplitude when moving the watch from an edge position (e.g. crown right) to dial up or down. In moving the watch from an edge position to dial up the following changes in amplitude were found. Fully wound: 33 and 20 degrees (21.6 and 36.0 respectively). 24 hours down: 26 and 17 degrees.

In actual use on the wrist, error introduced by rapid arm movement (inertial forces) are lower in the fast beat movement.

Favre-Leuba suggested that over two year tests, no abnormal wear was found in the fast beat movements. They suggested that as long as proper lubrication was maintained wear rates would remain comparable.

So, although a fast beat movement may not need more frequent servicing than a slower beat movement, it will be less tolerant of lubrication failure (due to aging, dissipation, etc.).


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## Speech (Feb 20, 2010)

ollyhock said:


> el primero 36,000 i cant think of many others


what he said.

As far as i know however there are some REALLY high beat movements. They are fairly impractical just pushing the limits, if i remember correctly Cartier had a crack at making a super high beat, with a new lubrication system that doesn't require lubrication. i'll see if i can find a link.

Nick


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Everything you need to know here:

http://www.36000bph.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=51

Except some of the details and dates are wrong. Girard Perregaux were the first to bring a 36,000 bpm watch to market but it was in 1965 (AFAIK) and not the stated 1996. In fairness I think it was just a slip of the finger from the author.

Cheers,

Gary


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## mike20 (Mar 15, 2010)

I've put some images on the Japanese Forum of my Seiko Automatic Professional 600m 6159-7010, It runs at 36000 BPM

Mike


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

Thanks mate. I was pleasantly surprised to see that watch cost around 200 pounds. Does anyone know of a new model seiko that has 36k.

I took from that link in another post that the Seiko SBGH001 does 42k, but then it costs around 2-3 thousand pounds. Do seiko do a cheaper priced version that is 36k.


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## Sparky (Nov 2, 2005)

Hi I have this mega ugly (but I like it, anyway!) Hamilton that runs a 36K Hi-Beat movement:



















Mark


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## tixntox (Jul 17, 2009)

Not forgetting the 720 hertz Omega watches! :jawdrop:

Mike


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## ollyhock (Feb 9, 2009)

dont knock it matey, i like it as well

hamiltons are great


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Look up the humble (but now vintage) Timex Dynabeat range - although electric hybrid, 28,800 beats! and smooooth seconds sweep. :yes:

And they are obviously smooth :yes: Hate to think what one would cost if they were made nowadays - even as a Timex! :to_become_senile:


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## johnbaz (Jan 30, 2005)

My Limit International 28,800 has to be in the running for the 'ugly watch of the year' award :blush2: :blush2:










John


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## Thus Spoke Zarathustra (Apr 16, 2010)

johnbaz said:


> My Limit International 28,800 has to be in the running for the 'ugly watch of the year' award :blush2: :blush2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought limit made cheapo rubbish, correct me if I'm wrong


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

With the exception of the X8, all the Citizen Cosmotrons run at 36,000 BPH....so most of these:


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

And of course the Xiang Yang SD2 also ran at 36,000 BPH --- a rare early transistor-controlled balance wheel watch from China and quite similar to the Cosmotrons:


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

I'm looking for watches that are available now / new to buy. I would quite like at least one watch in my collection to be a 36k.

Any ideas guys


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## JohnFraininthe93rd (Jul 4, 2006)

I may be wrong but doesn't the Tag Heuer Carerra 360 1/100th second movement beat at around 360,000 beats per hour when the chronograph is running?


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## Thus Spoke Zarathustra (Apr 16, 2010)

kc104 said:


> I'm looking for watches that are available now / new to buy. I would quite like at least one watch in my collection to be a 36k.
> 
> Any ideas guys


go for a Zenith El Primero, legendary movement


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## Sancho Panza (Apr 7, 2010)

Thus Spoke Zarathustra said:


> kc104 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm looking for watches that are available now / new to buy. I would quite like at least one watch in my collection to be a 36k.
> ...


There's an excellent fly through video of this on YouTube, quite stunning. Make sure you've got your speakers turned on.


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## Speech (Feb 20, 2010)

Agent orange said:


> Everything you need to know here:
> 
> http://www.36000bph.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=51
> 
> ...


yeah you are right about the 1996 thing, the el primero was 1969 so the first must be at least before then.


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

Maybe I should clarify. I would like a 36 k beats per hour watch for around 1 - 300 pounds. Is there a watch out there for it.


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## stevieb (Feb 12, 2010)

For that money you could get a good example of a 40 year old Girard Perregaux 39J High frequency.

I dont think your budget is going to strech to anything remotely new-ish [within the last 20 years]

One way would be to search the different specifications, models and movements from manufacturers because the higher you go in a range the better the modifications and 36,000 vph is some times offered.

Regards steve


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

What about this grand seiko I keep hearing about. I read that seiko are going to start selling them here now (from march of this year) anyone seen one in an AD yet.

That zenith looks the ticket but it a bit expensive.

its a real shame that all makers do not offer this in their range.


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## Thus Spoke Zarathustra (Apr 16, 2010)

kc104 said:


> What about this grand seiko I keep hearing about. I read that seiko are going to start selling them here now (from march of this year) anyone seen one in an AD yet.
> 
> That zenith looks the ticket but it a bit expensive.
> 
> its a real shame that all makers do not offer this in their range.


true, it would likely be a once in lifetime purchase if I bought one


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

So does anyone on this forum have a Grand Seiko ! If so, would you be kind enough to show us it on your wrist.


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## johnbaz (Jan 30, 2005)

Thus Spoke Zarathustra said:


> johnbaz said:
> 
> 
> > My Limit International 28,800 has to be in the running for the 'ugly watch of the year' award :blush2: :blush2:
> ...


Hi

I think Limit International were an old Swiss company, i'm presuming that they went under and the name was bought by a chinese company as i have had a few that had just the name "Limit" on the dial and crappy movements within, this one has a superb ETA ebauche inside if i recall correctly..

John 

BTW, the International part of the name can't be seen in my pic as there's a scratch across the crystal covering it up!!


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## Speech (Feb 20, 2010)

kc104 said:


> What about this grand seiko I keep hearing about. I read that seiko are going to start selling them here now (from march of this year) anyone seen one in an AD yet.
> 
> That zenith looks the ticket but it a bit expensive.
> 
> its a real shame that all makers do not offer this in their range.


I picked up an el primero HW NOS from the outlet AD for buttons! I mean, nothing as low as Â£300 but significantly below the Â£3k or so they typically cost, better than half price is all i shall say! just keep your eyes peeled and eventually you will snap up something in your price range


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

After some research I have found the following :

(1) Grand Seiko = 36k

However it is over 4000 dollars new, and I see no second hand ones so rather expensive.

(2) Zenith - Around the same money as the Seiko, and I think I would probebly have a zenith rather than a seiko.

(3) SOmeone mentioned the tag calibre 360 - again very expensive option.

I do have a contact in Japan - Might this be useful ! Could one get a good deal on a grand seiko there ! maybe in a jewelers that sells second hand !

I feel like making a comment about the comparison I feel on this issue.

18k watches are like normal plasma / lcd TV's while 36k watches are like those TV's but with High def.


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

from another forum - Further information :

currently, it is only Zenith and Seiko that produce 36,000 bph watches.

Chopard has developed a 72,000 bph caliber, Breguet use a 72,000 bph movement in their Type XXII chronograph and there exists an Audemars Piguet Jules Audemars model with a 43,200 bph movement. Tag Heuer's Grand Carrera Pendulum has a 43,200 bph movement, and their cal. 360 has the chrono module running at 360,000 bph when engaged.

72k wow, that must be like watching the second hand just sweep, i mean like it's not even beating as the eye will not be quick enough to pick up the individual beats.


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## stevieb (Feb 12, 2010)

The Tag Heuer calibre 36 is a 36k movement so is the Favre Leuba sea raider 2 is a 36K as is the Omega Hour Vision with the new 8500 co-axial movement.

Also the Girrd Perregaux 1966 Calendrier Complet has the GP033M0 movement which is a 36k in hommage to the past achivement of the company.

To winning the NeuchÃ¢tel Observatoryâ€™s Prix du Centenaire in 1966 roughly speaking in their eyes the single greatest achivement in mass market mechancal timekeeping.

Finally the Seiko Caliber 8L88 in the Credor GBBX998 beats at 43,200 that is one feat of engineering.

I've got 3 Girard Perregaux high frequencies but the most impressive is my wifes ladies Girard Perregaux high frequency its tiny at 19mm and a certified chronometer.

Good luck with your search.

Regards steve


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