# Raketa/Paketa



## tcj

on the watch face raketa -paketa.i have tried to look this up and the only thing i have found is for home market or export.does anyone have any more detail please.

are they from the same factories etc.


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## mel

tcj - google on "cyrillic alphabet" then take the image links that come up and print yourself off a copy of the alphabets. You'll find in the listings there P = R in cyrillic = western alphabets. It's also handy to have beside you to "translate" SIGNATURES on Russian pieces, you can work out what "Automatic" is in Cyrillics and so on. :yes:

Paketa/Raketa means Rocket in English if that helps you, logically Raketa would be nearer for export, but I'm not sure it's as clear cut as R = export, P = Home market, both show up worldwide. Like most collectors, I have exampless of both. :to_become_senile:


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## Vaurien

tcj said:


> on the watch face raketa -paketa.i have tried to look this up and the only thing i have found is for home market or export.does anyone have any more detail please.
> 
> are they from the same factories etc.


As Mel has underlined, Raketa is the sound of the cyrillic word 'PAKETA' (more precisely, the sound would be "rakeeata") and that's the writing you can find on the dial of watches from Petrodvoretz Watch Factory - Raketa.

There are many infos of this factory, the older of all russian watch factory, on the Netgrafik site


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## tcj

mel said:


> tcj - google on "cyrillic alphabet" then take the image links that come up and print yourself off a copy of the alphabets. You'll find in the listings there P = R in cyrillic = western alphabets. It's also handy to have beside you to "translate" SIGNATURES on Russian pieces, you can work out what "Automatic" is in Cyrillics and so on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paketa/Raketa means Rocket in English if that helps you, logically Raketa would be nearer for export, but I'm not sure it's as clear cut as R = export, P = Home market, both show up worldwide. Like most collectors, I have exampless of both.


Thanks Mel,i will certainly do a little more research when i have time.Not got a russian in my collection yet but will soon have.cheers Terry


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## martinzx

Hi tcj

I think Mel has pretty much nailed it, originally the Cyrillic would have been for the Eastern market the phonetic Translation Raketa for Western export, but over the years & as the watches are vintage you can find both in Cyrillic & English everywhere & as Vaurien stated they both were made at the Petrodvoretz watch Factory.

Best Regards

Martin


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## tcj

many thanks to all and i will be looking up all you mentioned.i just simply loooooove this forum.







again thanks.terry


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## Kutusov

mel said:


> Paketa/Raketa means Rocket in English if that helps you, logically Raketa would be nearer for export, but I'm not sure it's as clear cut as R = export, P = Home market, both show up worldwide. Like most collectors, I have exampless of both. :to_become_senile:


I also think that Raketa or Paketa don't necessarily means it's internal/export versions... I tended to think like that but now I thinks that's far from true...

An example... this one is clearly an export version with days of the week and months in western alphabet (not mine):










and this one is clearly for the internal market with everything in Cyrillic:










Both are branded "Paketa"...

There's also a brand called "Cornavin" and that, from what I understand, is an exclusively export Raketa. Not a sub-brand or different models, it's a Raketa sold in the west as Cornavin.


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## tcj

Kutusov said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Paketa/Raketa means Rocket in English if that helps you, logically Raketa would be nearer for export, but I'm not sure it's as clear cut as R = export, P = Home market, both show up worldwide. Like most collectors, I have exampless of both.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also think that Raketa or Paketa don't necessarily means it's internal/export versions... I tended to think like that but now I thinks that's far from true...
> 
> An example... this one is clearly an export version with days of the week and months in western alphabet (not mine):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this one is clearly for the internal market with everything in Cyrillic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> Both are branded "Paketa"...
> 
> There's also a brand called "Cornavin" and that, from what I understand, is an exclusively export Raketa. Not a sub-brand or different models, it's a Raketa sold in the west as Cornavin.
Click to expand...

thanks a lot for all info..BTW just love some of your watches.


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## martinzx

Kutusov said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Paketa/Raketa means Rocket in English if that helps you, logically Raketa would be nearer for export, but I'm not sure it's as clear cut as R = export, P = Home market, both show up worldwide. Like most collectors, I have exampless of both.Â Â :to_become_senile:
> 
> 
> 
> I also think that Raketa or Paketa don't necessarily means it's internal/export versions... I tended to think like that but now I thinks that's far from true...
> 
> An example... this one is clearly an export version with days of the week and months in western alphabet (not mine):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and this one is clearly for the internal market with everything in Cyrillic:Â Â
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both are branded "Paketa"...
> 
> There's also a brand called "Cornavin" and that, from what I understand, is an exclusively export Raketa. Not a sub-brand or different models, it's a Raketa sold in the west as Cornavin.
Click to expand...

I think the answer to this maybe that these are post 1992 watches, after the fall of Communism, prior to this time my view is what is previously stated. Also post 1992 we have Chinese copies also to take into account (probably later in years) that do not follow any rules except to deceive & make money.

http://www.russianwa...a-interview.htm

the link is about Raketa view of Chinese copies/fakes

Regards Martin

PS The brand CornavinÂ

The Cornavin company was founded in Geneva, Switzerland back in the 1920s. They made a wide variety of watches of various grades. In the 1970s, they started outsourcing; movements from Russia, dials from Taiwan, cases and assembly in Hong Kong etc, etc. By the end of that decade they were sourcing complete watches from the Soviet Union, mostly from the Petrodvorets Watch Factory (makers of Raketa). Many Cornavin-Raketas seem to have been sold within the USSR, although they were obviously intended as an export productÂ


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## Chascomm

martinzx said:


> I think the answer to this maybe that these are post 1992 watches, after the fall of Communism, prior to this time my view is what is previously stated. Also post 1992 we have Chinese copies also to take into account (probably later in years) that do not follow any rules except to deceive & make money.
> 
> http://www.russianwa...a-interview.htm
> 
> the link is about Raketa view of Chinese copies/fakes
> 
> Regards Martin


I'm going to be contrary here and state that of all the thousands of 'Raketa' branded watches that I have seen sold on-line I have never ever seen one that could have been a Chinese-made fake. All 'Raketa's that I have seen, either genuine or 'fake' have contained genuine Raketa movements and housed in cases identical to those used in authorised Raketa products.

Further complicating matters for the dedicated collector are several observed instances where in Raketa watches of particularly distinctive styles, the alleged 'fake' was on the market long before the authorised version. For example the 'Pilot 1' 24-hour watch, and the 1992-2012 calendar watch marked 'Made in USSR'. Also some of the more vivid dial colours that were at one time an indicator of a non-genuine watch, but were later offered by the Raketa factory.


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## martinzx

Chascomm said:


> martinzx said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the answer to this maybe that these are post 1992 watches, after the fall of Communism, prior to this time my view is what is previously stated. Also post 1992 we have Chinese copies also to take into account (probably later in years) that do not follow any rules except to deceive & make money.
> 
> http://www.russianwa...a-interview.htm
> 
> the link is about Raketa view of Chinese copies/fakes
> 
> Regards Martin
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to be contrary here and state that of all the thousands of 'Raketa' branded watches that I have seen sold on-line I have never ever seen one that could have been a Chinese-made fake.Â Â All 'Raketa's that I have seen, either genuine or 'fake' have contained genuine Raketa movements and housed in cases identical to those used in authorised Raketa products.
> 
> Further complicating matters for the dedicated collector are several observed instances where in Raketa watches of particularly distinctive styles, the alleged 'fake' was on the market long before the authorised version.Â Â For example the 'Pilot 1' 24-hour watch, and the 1992-2012 calendar watch marked 'Made in USSR'.Â Â Also some of the more vivid dial colours that were at one time an indicator of a non-genuine watch, but were later offered by the Raketa factory.
Click to expand...

HI Chascomm

Thanks for your input its greatly appreciatedÂ Â Â :thumbup:Â Do you think the answer is that maybe unauthorized Raketa's were made post 1992 in various Russian factories by entrepreneurs ??

That now Raketa wants to push their new endeavors &Â label the previous as Chinese fakes, I have post 92 Raketa's that are not quite as well made as pre 92, dial printing, watch cover etc, but its defo an original movement.??

Just my thoughtsÂ Â Â 

Best Regards Martin


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## Kutusov

Well, those are some interesting points. I have my doubts too regarding fake Raketas, they are cheap watches so I don't see the point in faking it. It's probably more expensive to produce a fake than to get the original parts. What I think sometimes is fake are some of dials, especially the Nazi stuff...

There were some murky years with the fall of USSR (Yeltsin years) so rules were probably the exception...


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## martinzx

Kutusov said:


> Well, those are some interesting points. I have my doubts too regarding fake Raketas, they are cheap watches so I don't see the point in faking it. It's probably more expensive to produce a fake than to get the original parts. What I think sometimes is fake are some of dials, especially the Nazi stuff...
> 
> There were some murky years with the fall of USSR (Yeltsin years) so rules were probably the exception...


Did you read the interview??If so what do you make of 'Count Jacques von Polier' explanation??

Find out what's happening at Raketa -- including plans for new models and Raketa's battle with counterfeit sellers -- in this exclusive interview with Count Jacques von Polier, Head of Design and Propaganda at the Petrodvorets Watch Factory (Raketa).

http://www.russianwa...a-interview.htm

Note it states counterfeit sellers

BR

Martin


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## Kutusov

martinzx said:


> Did you read the interview??If so what do you make of 'Count Jacques von Polier' explanation??


No I haven't :bag:  I was just getting out so hadn't the chance. I'll read it now.


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## Kutusov

Ok, read it now. Don't know, it's hard to believe in all of that... not betting on a definite answer but it's hard to believe they never sold watches out of official circuit in those difficult years... Seams to me that a lot of what is said is propaganda in itself, which is all right as it means Raketa is trying to put it's house in order.

But like I said, I don't know... still, it was nice to read that! Thanks for link!


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## tcj

I just wanted to say thanks for all the input to my original question.It seems i`ve opened a great big can of worms.all makes interesting reading and gives me plenty of look up.

again thanks.


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## Chascomm

martinzx said:


> ...Do you think the answer is that maybe unauthorized Raketa's were made post 1992 in various Russian factories by entrepreneurs ??
> 
> That now Raketa wants to push their new endeavors &Â label the previous as Chinese fakes...


That is very much how it looks to me.

These days it is very easy to point the finger at the Chinese, however when questioned hard about these matters, the 'defenders' of the Raketa brand have tended to back-track to other arguments such as 'stolen parts'.

One authorised Raketa seller on another forum sought further information and was told about watches being assembled in cases made in Belarus. The fact is that Vitsebsk Instruments have been making cases for the major Russian manufacturers for more than half a century. They have certainly supplied cases to Raketa. They are known to have made cases-for-movements deals with Vostok, so they've probably done it with other companies. And they are known to use in their house-brand 'Vympel' some of the same case designs that they supply to other makers, using movements from Poljot, Vostok, Slava, Luch and yes, even Raketa. So therefore Raketa have sold uncased movements, and Raketa-style cases are available outside of Raketa themselves. I'm just joining the dots.

Another thing to consider are all those mix-n-match 'Raketa' frankenwatches that seem to be completely new and unused, that were selling in great proliferation about 10 years ago. If it wasn't the factory itself assembling left-over parts, then it would seem that some individual factory staff were doing it, possibly to supplement their income. That would constitute genuine 'stolen parts' ...unless the staff were being paid in parts (not unusual in Russian factories in the 1990s).

Most intriguing are those designs that are deemed to be non-geniune, but that are later adopted by Raketa and added to their catalogue. For example the word 'Ofitserskie' and a picture of a boat overprinted over a stock dial for a 24-hour or perpetual-calendar watch. Obviously not original, but later more professionally designed 'Ofitserskie' dials appeared on the catalogue. On a brand new watch 'ÑÐ´ÐµÐ»Ð°Ð½Ð¾ Ð² Ð¡Ð¡Ð¡Ð ' was once an obvious sign of an unauthorised dial, especially if the dial was in some vivid colour. Now all genuine Raketas look like that. Personally I think it makes a mockery of country-of-origin labelling laws, but they call it an 'homage' to their glorious past.

As for all the arguments about what constitutes a genuine 'ÐŸÐ˜Ð›ÐžÐ¢' (Pilot) brand watch...  As I recall it, that brand originate as a knockoff of ÐŸÐžÐ›Ð•Ð¢ (Poljot), used by one of the small firms operating out of the old 1st Mscow Watch Factory site. Later the shadowy people assembling Raketa parts and putting German aeroplane designs on them started also using the name ÐŸÐ˜Ð›ÐžÐ¢ because it looks good. Then a seller of Russian watches in the USA requested from Raketa a small run of ÐŸÐ˜Ð›ÐžÐ¢ watches built to his specifications. After that the Raketa company start putting out their own ÐŸÐ˜Ð›ÐžÐ¢ watches that looks just like the supposedly 'unauthorised' versions. And they tell us to avoid buying 'fakes'!

I wish the new Raketa company every success in their resurrection of a great brand with a great heritage, but I've been observing this scene for too long to take the propaganda seriously.


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## Kutusov

Chascomm said:


> Another thing to consider are all those mix-n-match 'Raketa' frankenwatches that seem to be completely new and unused, that were selling in great proliferation about 10 years ago. If it wasn't the factory itself assembling left-over parts, then it would seem that some individual factory staff were doing it, possibly to supplement their income. That would constitute genuine 'stolen parts' ...unless the staff were being paid in parts (not unusual in Russian factories in the 1990s).


Good point and one I though of while reading the interview. He said that some workers saved the factory while the oligarchs wanted it bankrupted so they could sell the factory and land. How did those workers saved the factory? By keep working, making watches and selling them through official channels, when the bosses wanted anything but that? I don't know, it's probably one of those things we will never know because they are well kept secrets of a few people. The Wall fell down but the Iron Curtain is still up on a lot of things 

The Poljot thing it's also a bit confusing... Is he saying Volmax are doing fakes? I really didn't get that part... What exactly does he means by Poljot? AFAIK aren't they now Volmax and Poljot the name of a range of watches (Poljot, Sturmanskie, etc)?

The WUS people could give us a hand here...


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## Chascomm

Kutusov said:


> Chascomm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another thing to consider are all those mix-n-match 'Raketa' frankenwatches that seem to be completely new and unused, that were selling in great proliferation about 10 years ago. If it wasn't the factory itself assembling left-over parts, then it would seem that some individual factory staff were doing it, possibly to supplement their income. That would constitute genuine 'stolen parts' ...unless the staff were being paid in parts (not unusual in Russian factories in the 1990s).
> 
> 
> 
> Good point and one I though of while reading the interview. He said that some workers saved the factory while the oligarchs wanted it bankrupted so they could sell the factory and land. How did those workers saved the factory? By keep working, making watches and selling them through official channels, when the bosses wanted anything but that? I don't know, it's probably one of those things we will never know because they are well kept secrets of a few people. The Wall fell down but the Iron Curtain is still up on a lot of things
> 
> The Poljot thing it's also a bit confusing... Is he saying Volmax are doing fakes? I really didn't get that part... What exactly does he means by Poljot? AFAIK aren't they now Volmax and Poljot the name of a range of watches (Poljot, Sturmanskie, etc)?
> 
> The WUS people could give us a hand here...
Click to expand...

When Volmax split off from Poljot, they remained located in the 1st Moscow Watch Factory site and shared resources. Volmax took the model names Aviator, Shturmanskie and Buran, and turned them into brand names. Other small enterprises seem to have also set up within the same factory complex. And there are other assemblers elsewhere in Moscow that were buying parts from the factory. I think the Poljot company officially changed their name to '1st Moscow Watch Factory' but that does not mean that they are the only entity in that industrial complex. Then Maktime bought all the remaining movement tooling and continued supply to those who formerly used Poljot movements. Many sellers continue to identify Maktime movements as Poljot because that is what the customer knows.

Amongst the various Poljot related brands were names like 'Gold Poljot' (made by the 1st Moscow Watch Factory) and Poljot-Elite (made by somebody else). i suspect that some of those brands were authorised to use the name in particular combinations, but that with the change of ownership of the name Poljot, that permission has been withdrawn. That would mean that any subsequent production of a watch bearing a name containing the word 'Poljot' would be illegal, but it does not make the existing watches illegitimate.

There are also Poljot watches formerly made by the Kiev Watch factory, makers of Kleynod watches. Usually these were marked 'Ukraine' below the 6 o'clock marker, but there may be some that cannot be readily distinguished from the Moscow product.

Clouding the issue is the persistence of unsold stock of all these watch trickling out onto ebay. There may be 'new' watches with papers and box that have been made by authorised assemblers, but which are now denounced as 'illegal' as a way of directing customers towards the current authorised production.

And should we even mention Volmax's farming out the name 'Aviator' to a maker of Asian quartz watches for sale exclusively through airport shops...


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## martinzx

tcj said:


> I just wanted to say thanks for all the input to my original question.It seems i`ve opened a great big can of worms.all makes interesting reading and gives me plenty of look up.
> 
> again thanks.


It has turning out to be a great thread, I am very happy you posted itÂ :thumbup:


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## martinzx

I wish the new Raketa company every success in their resurrection of a great brand with a great heritage, but I've been observing this scene for too long to take the propaganda seriously.

Hi Chascomm

Thanks very much for the great input, it really help me put a lot of parts in the jigsaw of the History of Russian watches, also one of the most fascinating things it is still ongoing, even though its pretty messed up & you need sift through alot of propaganda it makes me love the watches more.

Going back to the interview early on I noticed the introduction as counterfeit sellers as opposed to counterfeit watches ..........lol

Great stuff !!! Â Â :to_become_senile:


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