# "Robert Horan Watchmaker ?"



## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

This isn't an easy post for me but having taking professional advice & consultation with our Forum host Roy (who has given his consent & blessing) is one that should be presented to members.

Mainly as a reminder & to prevent others falling victim to this man's shocking professional competency & business practices.

Some members along with admin have already been aware of my unfortunate involvement with this man & have had sight of 'all correspondence' to date.

As I do not wish (for legal reasons) to post these on a public forum you may wish to contact me by private pm or contact admin for their assessment of this truly shocking debacle.

My timepiece was initially repaired (new winding pinon & service) in January, I immediately paid him "230 euros" (I know).

When I received the watch back the timekeeping was shocking, I returned it (again at my expense).

This is when it all gets convoluted & frankly unbelievable, he attempts to extort more money out of me for additional parts!

The watch was returned to me on Monday this week not working.

You really need sight of 'all' the correspondence to appreciate my anger & frustration.

I have lodged my dissatisfaction with the two professional bodies this man is a member of, one has today requested all documentation so as to carry out a full investigation.

Robert Horan I invite you as I am sure other members will.....grow a pair, be honourable & repay my monies otherwise it will cost you more.

As I have informed you before, you clearly don't know me but suspect you wish you hadn't.

You Sir, along with questioning the abilities of 'George Daniels' have questioned my intelligence & pi$$ed on my boots.......my Irish traveller heritage simply will not allow that.


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## RWP (Nov 8, 2015)

Sorry to hear that Alan. I hope this gets resolved toyour satisfaction :thumbsup:

Robert Horan.......a name I will remember.


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## carlgulliver (Apr 6, 2008)

Sorry to hear about problems you have been having, takes all the fun out of watch collecting when these things happen. Hope you guys sort it out and all ends well


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

The main reason I decided to slowly invest in tools and learn to do things on my own was so that I wouldn't get conned by a watchmaker or so that they wouldn't break any of my watches.

It happened once or twice and I decided to only trust people after I've had proof that they're true professionals.

Unfortunately I hear about bad watchmakers/bad workmanship on a weekly basis so I guess it's bound to happen at some point if you don't have one steady watchmaker that you know and trust, sadly.

Good luck and I'm sure you'll solve this problem! :thumbsup:


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

carlgulliver said:


> Sorry to hear about problems you have been having, takes all the fun out of watch collecting when these things happen. Hope you guys sort it out and all ends well


 No, the fun will continue, after 40 years I suppose it would be inevitable one bad apple would emerge. :biggrin:

After a lifetime in business this just an irritation which quite frankly motivates & excites me. :yes:


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## Tazmo61 (Oct 3, 2016)

RWP said:


> Sorry to hear that Alan. I hope this gets resolved toyour satisfaction :thumbsup:
> 
> Robert Horan.......a name I will remember.


 Its certainly a name I won't forget either . I really do hope that everything turns out to your satisfaction .


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

gimli said:


> The main reason I decided to slowly invest in tools and learn to do things on my own was so that I wouldn't get conned by a watchmaker or so that they wouldn't break any of my watches.
> 
> It happened once or twice and I decided to only trust people after I've had proof that they're true professionals.
> 
> ...


 My current watchmaker of 20 years plus has expressed for some time his desire to retire, hence my sourcing of a competent replacement for when the inevitable happens.

I'm still looking. :yes:


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

Karrusel said:


> My current watchmaker of 20 years plus has expressed for some time his desire to retire, hence my sourcing of a competent replacement for when the inevitable happens.
> 
> I'm still looking. :yes:


 I'm assuming you're not UK based then? But even so, if you're within the EU it might still be worth looking at UK repairers. There are quite a few good, reliable watch jockeys we could put you in touch with.

Is Robert Horan the French-based member on here?


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## Robden (Apr 2, 2016)

Sorry to hear this Alan. Unfortunately these a-holes turn up in all sorts of trades and do need to be brought to light.

I know it won't dampen your enthusiasm but it's something you or anyone really, can do without.

Good luck in your battles. :thumbsup:


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> I'm assuming you're not UK based then? But even so, if you're within the EU it might still be worth looking at UK repairers. There are quite a few good, reliable watch jockeys we could put you in touch with.
> 
> Is Robert Horan the French-based member on here?


 The very film maker........sorry watch bodger. :yes:


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

Oh...... I hope that this will resolve at some point. I've always enjoyed his Watchmaker's bench posts to be honest...


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

gimli said:


> Oh...... I hope that this will resolve at some point. I've always enjoyed his Watchmaker's bench posts to be honest...


 So did I, that's why I chose him.

Sadly, sometimes not everything that glissens is gold.


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## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

So sad it has come to this Alan, but hopefully the name and shame will cause a positive reaction. That is if he logs on...

Cheers Martin


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## dobra (Aug 20, 2009)

Alan - I too was in business for 20 years, and I'm sure your experience will help to resolve this. Very good luck for a more than positive outcome, soonest. Over here on the Wight there' s another suspect whose misdeeds have already been broadcast on the net - which can only help alert the unwary....

mike


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

martinzx said:


> So sad it has come to this Alan, but hopefully the name and shame will cause a positive reaction. That is if he logs on...
> 
> Cheers Martin


 Thanks Martin, fortunately I have the wherewithal to pursue this man through the court's if needs be.

I suspect his arrogance is blinding him not only to the potential financial loss but more importantly, his reputation within a noble & honourable profession.

I did contact him before this post informing him that I had fully informed & obtained the approval of the forum host before my posting.

This last message to him also said "refund my monies now & I am prepared to draw a line under it"

His arrogance knows no bounds but suspect he is viewing from a distance.


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

Sorry to hear of your troubles, I hope you get everything sorted, and get fully reimbursed for all your bother. There are bad apples in all trades I'm afraid.


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## graham1981 (Jan 1, 2016)

Sorry to hear this @Karrusel, I had some work done by Robert and was more than pleased but it is a shame when things go wrong 

Here's hoping for a satisfactory resolution.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

What I find baffling in this case is that a good businessman (and forum member) could easily evaluate the potential business from from "the customer" by following the posts regarding the type of watches, and quantity owned, and the potential repeat business. The saying "you're only as good as your last job" is very appropriate. I hope you get it sorted out @Karrusel and quickly.


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

Karrusel said:


> The very film maker........sorry watch bodger. :yes:


 So are you living in France? I'm trying to work out why you would have sent a watch to France to an unknown who has no testimonials on any UK watch fora?


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> So are you living in France? I'm trying to work out why you would have sent a watch to France to an unknown who has no testimonials on any UK watch fora?


 Keep up dear chap, he is/was a forum member, just trying to put some business his way.

Reading all the comments in this thread may enlighten you. :yes:

Most people normally don't s#=+ in their own nest.


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## owain1 (Oct 13, 2016)

Sorry to hear this, I hope it works out for you in the end

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## JimboJames1972 (Jun 3, 2016)

That's sad to hear, I hope it all works out in the end.

J


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## Ar.parask (Mar 13, 2017)

it said:


> I'm assuming you're not UK based then? But even so, if you're within the EU it might still be worth looking at UK repairers. There are quite a few good, reliable watch jockeys we could put you in touch with.
> Is Robert Horan the French-based member on here?


The only question is for how long will it be worth it? Free market and all!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## graham1981 (Jan 1, 2016)

Ar.parask said:


> The only question is for how long will it be worth it? Free market and all!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 ????????


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## PC-Magician (Apr 29, 2013)

Great shame and duly noted.


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## JayDeep (Dec 31, 2016)

Terrible to hear


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## greasemonk (Oct 4, 2012)

hope you get this sorted Alan,having been in business in the motor trade for 30 years i know a good reputation is everything.i cannot understand why in the day and age of the internet would want to risk damaging their good name and utimately their livelyhood for the sake of a relatively small sum of money..


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

greasemonk said:


> hope you get this sorted Alan,having been in business in the motor trade for 30 years i know a good reputation is everything.i cannot understand why in the day and age of the internet would want to risk damaging their good name and utimately their livelyhood for the sake of a relatively small sum of money..


 As I have indicated above, apart from his gross incompetence he is clearly blinded by his arrogance.

A sad deluded individual.

I've had to deal with far more clever individuals during 40 years in business, this is merely a pimple that needs removing. :biggrin:


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Is this the bloke that took his donkey to the boozer ??

:laugh: :laugh:


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## chas g (Nov 20, 2016)

Personally I would take the easy option and just write this off as an unfortunate experience. Euro260 isn't worth all the bother and aggravation.................find someone else to sort out the watch and move on.


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## RWP (Nov 8, 2015)

chas g said:


> Personally I would take the easy option and just write this off as an unfortunate experience. Euro260 isn't worth all the bother and aggravation.................find someone else to sort out the watch and move on.


 260 euros is a lump of money to pay a chancer and let him get away with it. I wouldn't let it go and I hope Alan doesn't.


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## chas g (Nov 20, 2016)

RWP said:


> 260 euros is a lump of money to pay a chancer and let him get away with it. I wouldn't let it go and I hope Alan doesn't.


 Agreed that it is a lump of money. My problem is that the longer I let something like that fester in my head the more mad I get.


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## RWP (Nov 8, 2015)

chas g said:


> Agreed that it is a lump of money. My problem is that the longer I let something like that fester in my head the more mad I get.


 True, but I think at least an effort to bring him to book is called for :yes:


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## Robden (Apr 2, 2016)

chas g said:


> Agreed that it is a lump of money. My problem is that the longer I let something like that fester in my head the more mad I get.


 I'm afraid my thinking is, "Don't get mad, get even."

He's probably done it lots of times and thinks it will go a way eventually..........then move on to the next sucker.


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

I'd like to see the correspondence between the two parties :huh:


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## graham1981 (Jan 1, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> I'd like to see the correspondence between the two parties :huh:


 I think it would be good to have the full picture, I don't disbelieve @Karrusel but it's hard to make a judgement with only half the story.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> I'd like to see the correspondence between the two parties :huh:





graham1981 said:


> I think it would be good to have the full picture, I don't disbelieve @Karrusel but it's hard to make a judgement with only half the story.


 Can't you two read?......look at my opening post.

I didn't post to garner support, I'm a big boy now, 'Roy' insisted that I post after he had sight of 'all' communications so as to warn everyone else!

If you have any doubt contact Robert Horan himself......it's not rocket science.

Believe me if you will, after 40 years in business I've taken on far bigger charlatans than this. :bash:


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

Karrusel said:


> Can't you two read?......look at my opening post.
> 
> I didn't post to garner support, I'm a big boy now, 'Roy' insisted that I post after he had sight of 'all' communications so as to warn everyone else!
> 
> ...


 Still like to see the correspondence though…


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## RWP (Nov 8, 2015)

As a member Robert Horan is able to post and make his side of the case. Tellingly he chooses not to.


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## graham1981 (Jan 1, 2016)

Karrusel said:


> Can't you two read?......look at my opening post.
> 
> I didn't post to garner support, I'm a big boy now, 'Roy' insisted that I post after he had sight of 'all' communications so as to warn everyone else!
> 
> ...


 Actually yes I can thank you :thumbsup: I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying @Karrusel I wasn't saying you should post the correspondence up here or that I want to see it just that it is hard for an outsider to make a full judgement when they can only see one side of the argument (for whatever reason) - I don't think that is an unreasonable point to make especially when a thread can have the potential to impact on someones business - deservedly or not, there's always two sides to a story and we always have to remember that.

@RWP True it doesn't look good when one party doesn't try to defend themselves, but again there may be a reason? Who knows (and that was kind of my point - perhaps not made very well  )

Hopefully it all gets sorted one way or another


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

chas g said:


> Personally I would take the easy option and just write this off as an unfortunate experience. Euro260 isn't worth all the bother and aggravation.................find someone else to sort out the watch and move on.


 :laugh: :laugh:

You may let folk pi¢¢ on your boots........I 'never' have. :biggrin:


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

Karrusel said:


> :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> You may let folk pi¢¢ on your boots........I 'never' have. :biggrin:


 Good luck :thumbsup:


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

:bash:

No further comment needed!


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## Chromejob (Jul 28, 2006)

:OyVey:


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## chas g (Nov 20, 2016)

Karrusel said:


> :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> You may let folk pi¢¢ on your boots........I 'never' have. :biggrin:


 eloquent and irritable.......................ibp do a very good blood pressure monitor. :thumbs_up: I hope you reach a happy outcome. Just out of interest what was the watch?


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

I know this thread has created interest, some recently unwelcome one for our host Roy.

Roy & several forum members who have supported me throughout this debacle are already aware of all developments as they happened. For those left wondering 'what's this all about' her is a summary of events since the last post.

The British Watch & Clockmakers Guild (BW&CMG) after reviewing all corespondance between Horan & myself agreed to act as intermediary, in an attempt to bring about a satisfactory conclusion.

They informed me after consulting with Horan, would I be prepared to give him another (third time) opportunity to repair said timepiece. Furthermore, he (Horan) will cover the cost of any additional repairs & postage.....I agreed.

Part of this arrangement was that Horan returned the watch initially to the Guild Chairman who would then return the watch to myself.

Shortly after I had returned the watch to Horan he severed all communication with the Guild, myself & refused to comply with previously agreed conditions.

I received the watch shortly after, it's performance was worse than when I first sent it to him!!

"Robert Horan is no longer a member of The British Watch & Clockmakers Guild"

Moving on a short while, at a meeting of the BW&CMG board members discussed at length this case & felt I shouldn't be deprived of a correctly functioning timepiece, having already paid Horan 250 euros.

Board member Christian Dannerman offered his professional services (watchguy.co.uk) to rectify my watch F.O.C.

I humbly accepted this generous offer & after a short while my watch was returned in superb condition.

This repair can be viewed in it's entirety on Christian's website: watchguy.co.uk click on photo library, scroll down to Vulcain 'Exactomatic' GT, job number 2589.......all will be revealed ( I strongly recommend that you do).

Here are a few for now....























































































































A couple I've taken since being returned.....



















Finally, I would like to express my sincere gratitude to the Chairman of the BW&CMG Chris Papworth & board member Christian Dannerman for bringing about a satisfactory conclusion.

It's extremely heartening knowing that this organisation is striving, maintaining, the very high standards that befits both watchmaker & client......I applaud you gentlemen.

Additionally, I would like to thank those members that approached me privately offering their support, I will always be grateful & mindful of that fact. You know you can count on me should you require it.

Last but not least...Roy, without his support, conviction & the window of his Forum my journey would have been much longer.

Thank you guys.....I will not forget those that have supported, assisted me.

P.S. Christian did enclose a little treat for me when my watch was returned......










Can I have M & M's next time please. :biggrin:


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## SBryantgb (Jul 2, 2015)

I'm glad this all worked out in the end. I have used Christian in the past (He has a very good website as well). :thumbsup:


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## Tazmo61 (Oct 3, 2016)

I'm very happy you got a satisfactory conclusion Karrusel . The Vulcain looks fantastic :thumbs_up:


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

So pleased that it's all worked out for you, Alan, though it's been a long, and I guess frustrating journey. All praise to those that deliberated and came to the rescue. Wear the restored watch in health and with pride. :thumbsup:

Glad to see that all has been resolved and that me and the other mods don't have to go and visit Roy in the chokey.......... :laugh:


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## Pete wilding (Jul 13, 2017)

I like happy endings


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Good to see you have your watch back Alan, and a proper job. Shame you had to go through the hassle, thankfully there are good guy's out there.


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## PC-Magician (Apr 29, 2013)

Vulcain is fantastic and so pleased you have it back in working order. :thumbsup:

I have been self employed nearly thirty years and can count on one hand the mistakes I have made with customers computers and other electronic goods.

And I resolved said mistakes with either a full refund or the repair carried out again to the customers satisfaction, no quibles or arguments very simple to do really.

These days customer service seems to be going down the pan.

I had a bad experience with a local Watch repairer some time ago so know only too well how it feels, turned out he was a movement dunker.

My 1970's Omega was very nearly ruined in fact the dial was and had to be restored, and sadly not exactly as original but the best that could be acheived.

We live and learn sometimes the hard way.


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## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

I am very happy you got your watch repaired in the end...

I always liked Christians website it looks like he has done a stellar job!

So Horan has kept the money for a diabolical job, I am happy you have named and shamed him. :thumbsup:


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

Thanks guy's, the money is only on deposit with Horan, currently acquiring a lot of interest :yes:

You don't think I would let it rest there do you.......you know my heritage by now :biggrin:

If I may add, if you are in need of a reputable watchmaker either through this Forum or by contacting the British Watch & Clockmakers Guild, be patient as good watchmaker's are always busy & please pay their fees promptly (it will serve you both well).

All is good :thumbsup:

:rltrlt:


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## deano1956 (Jan 27, 2016)

alan all I can add is :thumbsup:

deano

oh and watch looks superb and I don't do vintage :biggrin:


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## PC-Magician (Apr 29, 2013)

Karrusel said:


> Thanks guy's, the money is only on deposit with Horan, currently acquiring a lot of interest :yes:
> 
> You don't think I would let it rest there do you.......you know my heritage by now :biggrin:
> 
> ...


 "If I may add, if you are in need of a reputable watchmaker either through this Forum or by contacting the British Watch & Clockmakers Guild, be patient as good watchmaker's are always busy & please pay their fees promptly (it will serve you both well)."

Well said.

There are one or two on the forum that are very good. 

I always apply the rule: Your only as good as the last job you did.


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## RWP (Nov 8, 2015)

Excellent result.....and a lot of hard work and good will on your part Alan, and those who brought about a satisfactory conclusion, well done.


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## Damo516 (Nov 9, 2015)

Excellent news Alan, watch looks fantastic :thumbsup:


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## simon2 (Dec 5, 2010)

We all feel for you. Hope you resolve your issues.


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

Glad to see you finally got your watch fixed, it is a lovely looking piece. It is great to hear that there are still gentlemen around in this world. I hope your wait for reimbursement is short and sweet. I still have the scrotum electrodes and thumb screws if you need them, and I'm free most weekends if you require a second to hold your coat.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

Teg62x said:


> Glad to see you finally got your watch fixed, it is a lovely looking piece. It is great to hear that there are still gentlemen around in this world. I hope your wait for reimbursement is short and sweet. I still have the scrotum electrodes and thumb screws if you need them, and I'm free most weekends if you require a second to hold your coat.


 Thanks Teg.

Blimey, I'll have more seconds than Roger's watch shelf, shall we sell tickets ?

:laugh:


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## first-class watch-fan (Jul 15, 2017)

hey, sorry to hear that you have been subject to a sharp practice watch service, very disappointing to anybody, there you go in good faith with you precious time piece in believing that the problem gets solved, professionally and paid money for this shotty service.#

I sincerely hope you get this issue cleared up and your money returned

best wishes


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## Redwolf (Jun 15, 2010)

It's not nice when you pay for a service and you don't get what you pay for (expect) happy to hear Christian helped out he's a real pro I've used him and his work is amazing.

Hope you get your money back quick time.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Good watchies are hard to find, and mostly dying off due to being as old or older than me'sen! Trouble is, if you name and *praise* on TWF, they become inundated with work and their waiting time just extends even further. :yes:

OTOH, name and shame is a service to WISkind so thanks for this heads up I've looked at with interest - -


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## PC-Magician (Apr 29, 2013)

I assume it will now be going legal to recover your money so please keep us informed if you can.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

PC-Magician said:


> I assume it will now be going legal to recover your money so please keep us informed if you can.


 :yes:

Do you think he's woke up to the fact that all this disclosure could have been avoided & issues dealt with quickly & honourably on his part ?.......obviously not!

Wonder if he still thinks that 'George Daniels' would be challenged in repairing my timepiece (his words, members have had sight of his e-mails).

Dear Lord, some folk are so far up their own delusional a=+e. :bash:


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## Caller. (Dec 8, 2013)

Very interesting to learn how this panned out.

Firstly, it's a fantastic watch Alan and I'm pleased that it was finally made good - it looks fantastic.

Secondly, it seems the stance taken by the BW&CMG was considered and initially fair to both sides in seeking a resolution, albeit they were asking for an act of good faith on your part, in view of your previous experience up to that point.

I find it truly astonishing that having been given another chance to redeem himself, by none other than his own professional body, that he should then act in the way he did, thus throwing away his last chance of restoring his reputation and what was left of his personal integrity, not to mention his career. I just can't imagine what he thought he was going to achieve by doing so? He must have known what the consequence would be, surely?

So Kudos to the gentleman that repaired your watch, that was a very generous offer.

But two questions stand out for me -

1. How did he qualify if his work was of such poor quality? I'm assuming here that the films were not quite as genuine as first believed?

2. Is he still able to practice citing his UK qualifications, bearing in mind his location and that he may have more than one parent body?

I would also like to extend my thanks to Alan for going public with this story when he did, as a good friend had asked for assistance in repairing her late fathers 1957 seamaster. A watch she was unaware he even owned, until I visited one day in Sept / October 2015 on a trip back to the UK to collect a couple of watches that had been delivered to their address as well as a forum mug from Roy! Of course, I had to open my goods whilst there and when he saw my speedy, her father suddenly said that he had an Omega and disappeared for a while upstairs before returning with his stunning watch - in need of some TLC - and guess where I was thinking of sending it?


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## PC-Magician (Apr 29, 2013)

Maybe this should be a sticky?


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## wilderbeest (Sep 3, 2017)

Gentlemen,

I've only just found this thread, and, as the mentioned Christian Dannerman [sic], I'm slightly disconcerted to be involved in a discussion that involves posts like "scrotum electrodes and thumb screws". This is threatening a colleague of mine with physical violence, and that is something I can't condone.

We are all over 25, and the discussion of this topic could have been a bit nicer.

You all have jobs, and you all will make mistakes. Sometimes, you will get the resolution of the mistakes you make wrong. That also happens to me. And I'm sure it happens to you.

The BWCMG asked me to help to sort out the ongoing dispute, and I was happy to do so. The photos I produced are of the watch as I got it, and I don't know if that is how it left Mr. Horan's workshop. It's just how I got it. I sorted out the problem for free to maintain the standards of the Guild, and to bring matters to an end.

I do not wish to make any judgement on Mr. Horan's work, and I am sure he has many happy customers, that just won't find this thread. He is making a living fixing watches, and contributes to the BHI Journal, and has contributed to The Timepiece (the BWCMG publication) in the past, with insightful and technically thought through articles. It's not fair to judge someone by a single job. I make mistakes as well.

Let's all be nice to one another, and I hope that me sorting out the issue for free can be a bit of an example of goodwill that hopefully will trickle down to this discussion.

Mr. Horan has contacted me, and he and his wife are very upset about the whole affair, so I would like to ask everyone here to put the matter to rest, and to leave Mr. Horan alone. The fact alone that he has been threatened with physical violence on this thread without the moderator intervening should have some of you having their head hang in shame.

All the best,

Christian Dannemann

watchguy.co.uk


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

Perhaps you would kindly ask Mr Horan to return the monies paid to the aggrieved party, he has had every opportunity to do so over the last 6 months.

Do you not think this is not an unreasonable & honourable thing to do ?


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## wilderbeest (Sep 3, 2017)

In the end, with my free intervention, a satisfactory result was achieved for the money paid. In my opinion, no need to refund anything. Or am I wrong here?

Best regards,

Christian


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

How do you account with him failing to comply with previously agreed conditions with the Guild chairman ?


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

If you were disconcerted to get involved then why did you? At no time was "your friend" threatened with actual violence! I mearly stated I had scrotum electrodes and thumb screws, at no point did I mention using them on anyone, I only enquirer if my friend would like to borrow them!


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Gentlemen, please, this will go nowhere.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

You will note gentlemen that Mr Dannerman has not relayed any apologies from Horan to the aggrieved party for the distress his mistakes have caused!

I have all the evidence at hand.


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## RWP (Nov 8, 2015)

wilderbeest said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I've only just found this thread, and, as the mentioned Christian Dannerman [sic], I'm slightly disconcerted to be involved in a discussion that involves posts like "scrotum electrodes and thumb screws". This is threatening a colleague of mine with physical violence, and that is something I can't condone.
> 
> ...


 Aren't you sore from sitting on the fence. It's a disgrace you have such members, and if you can't distinguish between threat and banter that's your problem.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

Members may well note that I sought prior approval from Christian if I may use '*his images*' in my final update to members *on this Forum*, he duly gave it!!!

???

Evidence at hand!


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

Hilarious :laugh:

The fact the guy was given three chances (he wouldn't have got the second if it had been my watch) but still failed to deliver a satisfactory result speaks volumes. That's not a bad day, it's incompetence. His manners were found wanting as well.

As for the money, surely Horan should be paying Christian? Ultimately the watch was fixed for the price agreed, just by a different repairer.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

The ideal resolution for me, would be that Horan apologised & returned the money to me (as we had entered into a contract), then for me to forward all monies onto Christian or the Guild for their thoughtful intervention & gesture.

Not an unreasonable conclusion to a distasteful experience.


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## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

What going on?... Lol An attempted manipulated code of silence between Robert Horan and @wilderbeest (Christian Danneman aka thewatch guy). love your website btw. :thumbsup:

Let us try get some perspective Robert Horan joins TWF posts lots of impressive posts and photos of his skill as a watch repairer, attempting to tout business, excellent for him and us , we want to hear about quality watch repairers....
Cut a long story short makes a pigs ear of the repair, it happens I know... ( I used to work as tradesman and I was a member of the guild of mastercraftsmen... Conflict resolution and examples of that are paramount for membership. In short how good are you at resolving problems with clients when things go wrong) .

Robert Horan not only failed a satisfactory repair, (I am guessing the repair was tricky?) but it is how you deal with customers that really matters. The watch watch not repaired money was paid. He kept the money sent the watch back faulty. He should of just refunded the money and admit he could not do the repair for whatever reason. Job done...easy. Or he could of contacted the guild for advice how to repair the watch, asking for help.

@Karrusel contacts the guild, *Robert Horan agrees to a resolution, fails to meet that resolution, and leaves the guild*... *There it is folks Robert shoots himself*, All this is self inflicted and could have been so easily avoided and resolved...

The guild ask @wilderbeest (Christian Danneman aka thewatchguy) to repair the watch and he do so which is excellent BTW :thumbsup: kudos! But to then come out with some tripe that the watch may not have left Robert Horan in that condition... lol ...really :laugh: Then say go easy on Robert Horan? I think @Karrusel has been very patient and given him ample opportunity for Robert Horan to come clean and just admit he was at fault apologise and refund the money. That way I am sure he could salvage something, rather than calling the police and @Roy having a visit...lol
If something like this happened on TZUK they would have hung, drawn and quartered him...for sure!!

We are living in a time of free information and a lot of damage can be done or undone in threads like these, codes of silence are a thing of the past. I think there is time for Robert Horan to do the right thing and everyone will be happy. I know in life things happen including mistakes... We recently went through a bereavement and I dropped the ball at work, a real clanger. (But it is how we respond) I owned up to it, and we moved on...

I really hope things work out for all concerned!! 
Martin


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## PC-Magician (Apr 29, 2013)

The repair as far as I could tell didn't look that difficult.


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## Only visiting (Sep 4, 2017)

Hello, this is Robert Horan with my side of the situation with Mr Karrusel.

I have been banned from the forum, so this will be my one and only comment on the situation as it unfolded between myself and Mr Karrusel's watch. I will try to keep it as brief as possible, but cover the main points.

Most of you have already sided with Mr Karrusel, which is fine, he's an active long time forum member, while I am an outsider. I don't expect to change your point of view (or anyone else's point of view) because of my post. To the few members who were either neutral or wanted to hear both sides of this situation, before coming to a conclusion, thank you. For those members who have suggested/offered to cause me physical harm, have you lost sight of the fact we are talking about a watch? While you may consider your threats as simple 'banter' I can assure you that the police don't agree - threats of any sort are unacceptable and uncalled for.

1 - Mr Karrusel sent in the watch for servicing. I serviced the watch and discovered that the offset cannon pinion was worn out. For the readers who don't know about cannon pinions (CP) a CP acts as a clutch between the timekeeping train and the hands. The clutch allows you to set the time. Like any clutch, the CP is prone to wearing out , the more often you change the time, the more the clutch is wearing.

2 - I searched for a new CP for Mr Karrusels movement but came up empty handed. The only solution was to try and restore the CP friction in the staking set. I did this and it worked and the watch was assembled and tested fine. I then took the time to write up a care and upkeep email explaining the situation with the CP clutch, and advising Mr Karrusel - if possible - to only set the time when needed, to avoid premature wear of the repaired CP. Unfortunately this watch has no quick set date function, to advance by one date requires 24 turns of the hour wheel, all the while the CP is turning and wearing out. I mentioned in a humorous way to either ignore the date, or only wear the watch on the date that it indicates. Mr Karrusel responded to my care and upkeep email in a abusive manner and was shouting to get his point across, I have never had that happen and was taken aback by his reaction.

3 - After receiving the watch, the repaired CP failed while in Mr Karrusel's care. Mr Karrusel contacted me, and I asked him to return the watch. I searched further out and was able to find a NOS CP in Canada. I passed along this good news to Mr Karrusel, and kept him informed of my progress at each stage. Of course Mr Karrusel would be expected to pay for the new CP and in turn I would absorb all the labour and shipping fees. The cost of the CP including shipping was $60.00. When my associate sent the billing to Mr Karrusel, he refused to pay. After a stalemate, I realized that Mr Karrusel was not going to pay for the new CP, so I re-installed his original one, and sent the watch back (not one of my proudest moments I agree, but I felt I had no choice). Never during the past 17 years as a watchmaker, have I had a customer refuse to pay for parts needed to fix his watch.

4 - After receiving the watch with the original worn CP, Mr Karrusel filed complaints with the BHI and the BWCMG. The Chairman of the BWCMG - Chris, called me and we spoke at length about what I just outlined above, he said that he had spoken to Mr Karrusel on the phone and it was not a pleasant discussion, out of respect for Chris I won't share those details with you. In order to avoid bringing the BWCMG any bad publicity, I agreed to install the NOS CP and adsorb the costs, I also asked Chris if he would act as the middle man, I would send Chris the watch with the new CP and he could give it a once over and forward it onto Mr Karrusel. Chris agreed to do this for me.

5 - The following day I found out that Chris was dealing with some serious health issues with a close family member, the last thing he needed was for me to burden him with my situation, therefore I told Chris that out of respect for the situation he was in, I would ship the watch directly to Mr Karrusel and not via the BWCMG, which I did, including for Mr Karrusel an envelope with cash to cover his out of pocket shipping fees. And that dear readers (for those of you who have read this far) is the last I heard about this watch, as far as I knew the new NOS CP was working fine. Yesterday I found out that Mr Danneman had taken on the repair of Mr Karrusel's watch, and as you probably guessed, Mr Danneman found the exact same problem I had all along, only this time with the NOS CP (the 3rd failure). Mr Danneman used the same repair procedure as I did to restore the friction on the CP by using the staking set. How long will the repair last, is anyone's guess.

6 - With reference to the condition of the movement as received by Mr Danneman and shown in his photo's, that the watch didn't leave my work bench in that condition.

7 - As for the BWCMG my only involvement with that organization is with the Editor of the bi-monthly 'Timepiece' newsletter. She and I go back a number of years and I worked with her at the BHI. She since left the BHI and became editor of the 'Timepiece' and she asked if I would be willing to write technical articles for the BWCMG (which I was already doing for the BHI) the only problem was the fact that she couldn't pay me, so in return I was offered a free membership as a token of appreciation, which I accepted.

8 - Later on, after speaking to the BWCMG Chairman and reading one of his write ups in the 'Timepiece' I realized that the values and workings of the BWCMG - did not line up with my existing business practices - business practices that have served me well for 17 years - so instead of banging heads with the BWCMG - I quit, simple as that.

Over the years I have dealt with hundred's of customers and serviced thousands of watches. The situation with Mr Karrusel is a first. A quick Google search under my name and 'watchmaker' will pull up 1 - and only 1 - complaint against me - make of that what you will. If you scroll down the Google search page, you will actually find positive reviews about my workmanship, how about that!

My closing is directed at the abusive mean spirited comments that have been made by forum members. Individuals who have never dealt with me, don't know me, have never met me in person, but are quite prepared to come to a conclusion based on one side of the story and to write hateful messages and send accusations my way.

That's it folks...

Robert


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

Obviously this is hogwash by a completely deluded individual.

I will now call on all Forum members & the Guild who have copies of "every communication" between Horan & myself to validate everything I have previously stated as true & correct!

Let's see were truth & sincere affinities lie once & for all.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

I had an Omega in for repair a few years ago, the movement had been hacked by someone else. I tried to fix it and failed on two attempts, it just ended up needing part after part.

I initially quoted and charged the customer £150 and after getting the watch back twice I spent more than that on it in parts. In the end I just had to say it was beyond it, I should have known better than take it on in the first place but I always tried to help customers.

I kept the customer informed all the time and refunded the £150 and the postage money that the customer had spent sending it back twice.

It happens, sometimes you just have to cut your losses, it's the honesty, attitude and communication that matters in the end.

The customer was fine about it and understood that the original repairer had made a mess of it. I did my best without it costing a fortune, in the end it cost me time and money but I tried with what was available and kept my reputation intact :thumbsup:

The point I'm trying to make Mr Horan is that if the cannon pinion was worn out and you couldn't make a satisfactory repair then you shouldn't have charged Mr Karrusel, if you tried to repair the old cannon pinion and said you had and then you try to charge him for a new one? Sorry but I've never done business like this. I know what an offset cannon pinion is and I know how tricky they are. You say "I serviced the watch and discovered that the offset cannon pinion was worn out." You should have known it was worn out before servicing the watch not after.

As for going to the police that is just a strange thing to do and just causes more friction for yourself, all you had to do was come to me to remove the comment, which actually was a joke not a threat.


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## RWP (Nov 8, 2015)

If you want to draw a line under this episode apologise to Mr Karrusel ( your customer) after failing him dismally,other clients not withstanding, refund his money which is the least you can do given the trouble you have caused him, then stop pretending you have been threatened,that's just stupid. The post mentioning electrodes and thumb screws was an obvious joke.

Take responsibility for your actions.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Mr Horan, you are not doing yourself any favours by carrying this on, may I suggest that you just drop it & stop posting on this forum.


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## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

I think it is a little late @Only visiting Robert Horan, arguing your case at this time. I believe you had ample opportunity to do that before this situation escalated. If you chose to reply earlier it would have been welcomed. If @Roy did actually ban you, he must have had a very good reason. I know from my seven years membership he is a very tolerant person regarding members of TWF, and only bans members as a last resort.

Be sure of this Robert Horan, every time some potential future client does a Google search on your name they will find this thread. TWF has a very high Google search rating and is (SEO) optimised. I would kindly suggest you do the right thing and try to salvage your reputation and apologise and refund the money. It will pay you dividends in future, I am quite sure of that, it is always better late than never!

Hoping for a satisfactory outcome for all parties! :yes:

Cheers,
Martin :thumbsup:


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

Karrusel said:


> Obviously this is hogwash by a completely deluded individual.
> 
> I will now call on all Forum members & the Guild who have copies of "every communication" between Horan & myself to validate everything I have previously stated as true & correct!
> 
> Let's see were truth & sincere affinities lie once & for all.


 The fact that Roy has allowed or encouraged this thread should be sufficient for members. If anything further is needed then perhaps it would be a `put up of shut up' invitation to produce any evidence that disputes your comments as being true and correct - he will probably never respond.



martinzx said:


> Be sure of this Robert Horan, every time some potential future client does a Google search on your name they will find this thread. TWF has a very high Google search rating and is (SEO) optimised.


 That might depend on how many people share that name and if comments on this thread only appear on page 50 or so of a name search then chances are that no one will see them.


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## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

richy176 said:


> That might depend on how many people share that name and if comments on this thread only appear on page 50 or so of a name search then chances are that no one will see them.


 It is already on page one of a Google search and in two separate listings and think this will increase to the top of the page as it is indexed by Google ...


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## wrenny1969 (Jun 24, 2008)

It's funny how word of mouth lead me to this thread.

What we do in life echoes through eternity.


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