# First Pocket Watch To Collect



## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

Hello

I have just joined Forum with a view to gaining some idea of which pocket watch to start collecting.

I have been checking out online auctions plus local auctions but really dont know where to start.

I would like to spend around Â£300, hopefully on a silver Full Hunter late 1800's.

does that sound possible?

many thanks

Harry


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## DJH584 (Apr 10, 2013)

Welcome to the minefield - oops sorry forum.

In your price range you can be looking at Swiss or English makes along with some of the American makes. It is a matter of doing research first before committing yourself to a purchase.

In my book Â£300 is a lot to lose if you end up buying a lemon.

A lemon can range from the movement being in the wrong case, the dial fitted being wrong for the era of the movement along with the hands fitted being wrong for the era of the watch and that's just to give three examples hence why I said minefield.

BUT don't give up just because I said that. There are some decent examples out there on the web available for sale which are the genuine article.

I am a novice at buying pocket watches and none of mine have cost more than Â£150 and I have 61 of them!!!

The person I think we really need on this thread is Will Fly and other pocket watch collectors. Hopefully Will and others will see this thread and add some input.

In addition to that input also have a look at the NAWCC message board and IHC185 to gain some knowledge.

Oh one question I meant to ask: Is there a particular reason why you have that set budget for one pocket watch or are you looking at starting a collection?

In the meantime Harry welcome to the addictive world of watch collecting!!!

Regards

David


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## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

DJH584 said:


> Welcome to the minefield - oops sorry forum.
> 
> In your price range you can be looking at Swiss or English makes along with some of the American makes. It is a matter of doing research first before committing yourself to a purchase.
> 
> ...


Hi David

many thanks for your reply.

I have just set a budget of Â£300 as a starter. At the minute I would like one watch but I have a history of collecting things.

I will check out the web sites you mention.

kind regards

harry


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Hello Harry,

Welcome to the forum

If you've never owned a PW at all, you could do worse than look at some Russian made ones just as a cheapie starter-outer kit :yes:

For around Â£30 or so, maybe even less, you would then know if wearing and using a PW is for you or not, *and* you'd have a Daily wearer that you wouln't be worrying about damaging in any way? Try "Molnja" as a make, lots of clear dials, embossed cases and a decent mechanical movement that should keep good time - - always available on a "bay" near you :lol:


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## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

mel said:


> Hello Harry,
> 
> Welcome to the forum
> 
> ...


hi Mel

thank you for the advice, I will check them out, I have always admired pocket watches and would like to get started on collecting some but as you suggest probably better to start small


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## AVO (Nov 18, 2012)

Can't give you the link - forum rules - but if you Google Oxford+pocket+watches you will find a selection that appears to reflect what you are looking for...there's English, American and Swiss for starters.


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## Will Fly (Apr 10, 2012)

Hi Harness - and a belated welcome from me. I've been collecting pocket watches for a few years - over which time I've bought and sold a few, and narrowed down my interest to two types: military (WW2) and "railroad" watches. So my interests are quite restricted. I like American railroad watches mainly because I think they have high quality movements - they're often called railroad chronometers - and are things of beauty. They also have some interesting dials and cases which, for me, make them stand out from the crowd. All personal opinion!

I don't think I've paid more than Â£250 for a railroad watch - but they may have increased in price since I started collecting, and they're less common than they used to be. The Hamilton military watches I have are far more costly, mainly because "militaria" is always in vogue. Anyway, if you want to see part of my collection, take a look at:

http://www.willswatc...et-watches.html

Best of luck!


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## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

Will Fly said:


> Hi Harness - and a belated welcome from me. I've been collecting pocket watches for a few years - over which time I've bought and sold a few, and narrowed down my interest to two types: military (WW2) and "railroad" watches. So my interests are quite restricted. I like American railroad watches mainly because I think they have high quality movements - they're often called railroad chronometers - and are things of beauty. They also have some interesting dials and cases which, for me, make them stand out from the crowd. All personal opinion!
> 
> I don't think I've paid more than Â£250 for a railroad watch - but they may have increased in price since I started collecting, and they're less common than they used to be. The Hamilton military watches I have are far more costly, mainly because "militaria" is always in vogue. Anyway, if you want to see part of my collection, take a look at:
> 
> ...


thank you all for your advice, really helpful, seems a bit of a mine field but i am looking forward to getting started. I took the head staggers and bought 2 on e bay. shot in the dark really.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151353239324?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191248762370?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

any thoughts?

regards

harry


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## Will Fly (Apr 10, 2012)

They look like 2 nice watches. The damaskeening on the first one is very nice. I couldn't make out the serial number on the movement but, if you can see it, then check the number in this database:

http://pocketwatchdatabase.com/

The second one is a Grade 610, 7-jewel movement, made in 1922. Also in good nick, but I suspect the first one may be a higher grade movement. Anyway, well done!


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## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

Many thanks

The first one arrived today, looks great. the 3 parts of the casing are all marked 8282330 Keystone watch case, on the database is states 1897, Grade = Bd.St, size 14s 7 jewels. the Movements "hope thats correct" on the watch state AWW.Co Waltham Mass 15 jewels with a marking of 1 8942992.this number on the database states 1898 Grade = 28, size 16s, 15 jewels.

so looks like a later movement was fitted at some time.

what is the difference in Grade Bd.St and 28?

I wound it up a little and its ticking away, hands are moving fine. there is no glass over the face, is that to allow setting of time?

only problem I can see is the button to open the front cover does not work, although its easy to open, all covers click closed nicely.

The casings are a little dirty, I have seen suggestions of jewelry sonic cleaners and watered down toothpase but I would appreciate some advice before doing anything

I am very pleased for my first purchase.


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## Will Fly (Apr 10, 2012)

If the serial number is as you say, then the watch is a Grade 620, made in 1913 - 15 jewels. If the front case cover doesn't open with the crown, it sounds as though the catch isn't being released - you can see the spring on the watch bezel, at 12 o'clock. You may want to get it repaired, or you may be happy to prise it open by hand - but, personally, I would get it repaired as opening with a fingernail or a case knife each time will inevitably damage the edge.

All watches should have a crystal of some sort - the original would have been glass - and no crystal leaves the dial and hands vulnerable to damage. A watch repairer should be able to order you a crystal and fit it for you. They're not hugely expensive - a few pounds at most. Sounds as though the watch has had a knock which broke the glass and damaged the catch. The time is set by pulling the crown upwards until it clicks - wind the hands as required and then click shut.

From what I can see of the case (I have the eBay listing in front of me), it looks in quite reasonable condition. Get a jeweller's silver polishing cloth and give the case, the cracks and crevices a gentle going over. Most superficial dirt will come off. If you're concerned about green muck in joints, get some soft pegwood, sharpen a piece to a point, and gently ease the dirt out. Blow dirt away with a puffer - not your breath! Pegwood and puffer can be bought very cheaply on eBay. The puffer is also used to blow muck from the movement - again, never use your breath, it contains moisture, and moisture causes rust...

I personally don't believe in putting watch cases through any sort of liquid cleaning process.


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## Will Fly (Apr 10, 2012)

I've just been reading your last post again. and you mention a case number and a movement number. Be careful not to confuse the two. The case serial number has nothing to do with the movement serial number - and you can't check the case number against the Pocket Watch Database as you'll get wrong information. This database only contains movement numbers - and it's the movement data that matters. It was quite common for cases to be made at different times from the movements, and it was very common for a person to choose a movement in a store and then decide on the quality of the case to match - i.e. nickel, silveroid, gold-filled, silver, gold. Your Keystone case is gold-filled, probably to 10 microns. And it would have been impossible to recase a size 16s movement in a size 14s case - 14s = 41.733mm, and 16s = 43.425mm.


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## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

Will Fly said:


> I've just been reading your last post again. and you mention a case number and a movement number. Be careful not to confuse the two. The case serial number has nothing to do with the movement serial number - and you can't check the case number against the Pocket Watch Database as you'll get wrong information. This database only contains movement numbers - and it's the movement data that matters. It was quite common for cases to be made at different times from the movements, and it was very common for a person to choose a movement in a store and then decide on the quality of the case to match - i.e. nickel, silveroid, gold-filled, silver, gold. Your Keystone case is gold-filled, probably to 10 microns. And it would have been impossible to recase a size 16s movement in a size 14s case - 14s = 41.733mm, and 16s = 43.425mm.


sorry did not add the 1 in front of movement number, yes looks like 1913.

what does grade 620 mean?


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## Will Fly (Apr 10, 2012)

All the American watch makers used the word "Grade" as the equivalent of the more common European "Calibre" - though they used "Caliber" as well!

The grade of a movement was the identification of the level of quality to which it was finished. This can get confusing because although some manufacturers assigned a grade name or number to a movement of a specific size, jewelling and finish, other manufacturers assigned a name to a whole range of movements of various sizes and jewelling, but finished to the same level of quality!

Still other manufacturers did this, but then gave individual grade numbers to movements of each different size and jewel count, assigning different numbers as improvements were incorporated. To confuse things further, the quality of a grade may have been upgraded (or downgraded) as the years passed by.

I wouldn't worry too much about the reasoning behind the assignment of a particular name or number as a grade. With time and research, you get to know what grades are high quality and which are more run-of-the-mill. To be honest, I believe that American watches of this type were all excellent, all well made and great value for money - in spite of the quantity in which they were made.


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## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

Will Fly said:


> All the American watch makers used the word "Grade" as the equivalent of the more common European "Calibre" - though they used "Caliber" as well!
> 
> The grade of a movement was the identification of the level of quality to which it was finished. This can get confusing because although some manufacturers assigned a grade name or number to a movement of a specific size, jewelling and finish, other manufacturers assigned a name to a whole range of movements of various sizes and jewelling, but finished to the same level of quality!
> 
> ...


 I can see that there is a lot to learn.

I am looking forward to learning more.

really appreciate the information you are passing to me, I am sure it took years to gain. I took your advice and used a jewellers cloth, has taken a lot of dirt, watch is coming up really nice.

very happy with my first purchase


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## Shiner (Mar 2, 2011)

Getting a crystal for the first watch should be quite straight forward, but maybe not so in this case as the crystal bezel also seems to be missing. Getting a replacement bezel is not so easy as they all seem to vary slightly from watchcase to watchcase. The bezel has to be exactly the right size and depth. If it is too shallow then the crystal will come into contact with the hands which would stop the watch or crack the crystal. If the bezel is to thick it will stop the front cover from closing.

There seems to be quite a lot of hunter cased watches being offered for sale on ebay that are missing the crystal bezel, with the seller stating that it just needs a crystal.

I have a few really nice hunter cases that are minus their crystal bezels and dozens of bezels that are not suitable replacements. Once in a blue moon I find one that fits only to find that the colour of the gold doesn't quite match the rest of the case. It looks okay, but every time I open the watch it's screaming at me Wrong Bezel!!

The first thing I check for on a hunter cased watch these days is the crystal bezel. No bezel, no deal.


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## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

Shiner said:


> Getting a crystal for the first watch should be quite straight forward, but maybe not so in this case as the crystal bezel also seems to be missing. Getting a replacement bezel is not so easy as they all seem to vary slightly from watchcase to watchcase. The bezel has to be exactly the right size and depth. If it is too shallow then the crystal will come into contact with the hands which would stop the watch or crack the crystal. If the bezel is to thick it will stop the front cover from closing.
> 
> There seems to be quite a lot of hunter cased watches being offered for sale on ebay that are missing the crystal bezel, with the seller stating that it just needs a crystal.
> 
> ...


 oh dear, thats a pity. I like the markings on the case but as you say the bezel is missing. looks like i bought a not so good one. the second one seems complete but I prefer the case on the first one. really appreciate your information. how does the bezel fit? is it push or screw on


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## Shiner (Mar 2, 2011)

The bezel is a simple push fit on a hunter case. It has a cut out at the 9 o'clock position for the hinge, and a cut out at the 3 o'clock position for the front cover release spring. The hunter bezels are much slimmer than the open face case front bezels, so only a hunter bezel of the exact size and thickness would be suitable. The hunter crystals are very thin and quite fragile and vary in height to allow clearance for the hands.


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## Shiner (Mar 2, 2011)

The problem regarding the opening of the front cover could probably be resolved by adjusting the stem sleeve of the winder.

The winder on your watch looks a little too high, and is probably not making contact with the release spring. The adjustment required would be very slight. To make the adjustment the movement needs to be removed from the case.


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## Shiner (Mar 2, 2011)

Grasp the squared end of the stem with a pair of pliers.


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## Shiner (Mar 2, 2011)

And unscrew the crown.


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## Shiner (Mar 2, 2011)

The top of the sleeve can be seen through the top of the pendant.


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## Shiner (Mar 2, 2011)

The sleeve is screwed slightly lower into the pendant with the sleeve adjusting tool.


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## Shiner (Mar 2, 2011)

Replace the crown and test to see if the front cover will now release correctly. It may need two or three adjustments to correct the situation.

Sleeve adjustment tools do come up for sale on ebay occasionally.


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## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

Thank you so much for the advice, the photos are a great help in showing how to carry out the adjustment, could you please advise on the tool, is e bay the place to get one?

your watch is beautiful.

I am only started with Pocket watches and am getting hooked already. just working out what my next purchase should be.


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## Shiner (Mar 2, 2011)

They do appear on ebay quite often. Just type in 'Pocket watch tools' and click 'search' to bring up pages of new and used tools and equipment.


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## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

I had a look, there seem to be a few different types, the one I would need would be similar to the sleeve you show. would I need a certain make?

really appreciate your help


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## Harness (Jul 13, 2014)

would this be ok?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400750503760?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


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