# Who made this?



## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

I've always loved watches, but it wasn't until recently, when my grandfather gave me his old pocket watch (that used to belong to my great grandfather) that I became fascinated with antique watches.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anyone to take it to for advice, so I've been doing some research online.

Can anyone tell me anything about this watch? I haven't been able to discover who made it. I can't get to the movements because it's covered by a "plate" (see last picture, with lion's head engraving) and I'm not sure how to remove it. Am I correct in assuming that the maker's name is underneath?

Is it advisable to remove the plate myself (bearing in mind I have no idea what I'm doing), or is that something best left to professionals? I'd hate to damage the watch in any way.

Pictures below. Any help/advice much appreciated.


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

I, for one, can't see the photos.


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## RoddyJB (May 11, 2008)

Nor can I?


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Those references to your pics don't seem to be actual links, so we can't view your watch. My advice at this minute is DON'T TAMPER WITH THE WATCH UNTIL MEMBERS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE A LOOK AT DECENT PICTURES. Advice from esteemed pocket watch fans on here will stop you going too far in messing about with the innards of the watch in order to get information.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Always Watching - - giveth good advice. You might want to tell us where you are based, maybe a member will know of a friendly "real" watchmaker in your area who would open it for you :tumbleweed:


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

gimli said:


> I, for one, can't see the photos.





Roddyjb said:


> Nor can I?


 I shared the photos from Dropbox, and it seemed fine last night. Today on my phone, however, I also can't see them. Sorry about that, I'm going to try again.



> Those references to your pics don't seem to be actual links, so we can't view your watch. My advice at this minute is DON'T TAMPER WITH THE WATCH UNTIL MEMBERS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE A LOOK AT DECENT PICTURES. Advice from esteemed pocket watch fans on here will stop you going too far in messing about with the innards of the watch in order to get information.


 Thanks, yeah I was hesitant to start tampering. I'm going to try to upload the photos again.



mel said:


> Always Watching - - giveth good advice. You might want to tell us where you are based, maybe a member will know of a friendly "real" watchmaker in your area who would open it for you :tumbleweed:


 I'm living in South Korea at the moment and unfortunately Koreans don't seem to be all that interested in antique watches  I can have it looked at when I go back home, but that might not be for some time.


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

@gimli @Roddyjb @Always"watching" @mel

Can you see the photos now?

If not, does anyone know how to share from Dropbox?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d50pra8ysroaf4t/PocketWatch001.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uz3iil7iw7kt25h/PocketWatch002.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3zymwgo99o6idv/PocketWatch003.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/my0oabmg579stqn/PocketWatch004.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ij5jtc2pqpql2ik/PocketWatch005.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hazl7xi25nn9ms8/PocketWatch006.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kc6ax8xgu56yxk8/PocketWatch007.jpg?dl=0


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

Well one of the hallmarks is that of Britain. The other 2 should tell us the period, maker and/or city of production but I don't know what they are. (google the hallmarks and you should find them)

The movement is a verge fusee type. All I know.


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

The 'plate' you refer to is merely a dust cover. The bow shaped retaining catch should slide left or right to unlock and lock. Once unlocked the dust cover can be lifted to revel the workings. There may be a maker's name engraved on the plate under there.

This vid will explain:


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

I concur with both Gimlii and MyrridinEmrys - - (haven't heard those in a whiley, my Sunday is Emlyn) just take it easy on the bow catch, use something like a cocktail stick if it seems stiff, and make sure it *can* move before moving it if you know what I mean? 

You need to relieve the pressure by pushing the bow inwards very slightly before you try sliding it round to the release position to flip the cover. :biggrin:


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## davidcxn (Nov 4, 2010)

I can't add much to the good advice already given. The hallmark in the case looks to be for London 1857. As has been said if the cover can be carefully removed you may find a watchmaker's name as well as being able to see & identify the type of movement.


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Silver marks:

Uncrowned Leopard Head is a London mark used from 1821 onwards.

The Gothic looking lower case ?b is for 1857.



davidcxn said:


> I can't add much to the good advice already given. The hallmark in the case looks to be for London 1857. As has been said if the cover can be carefully removed you may find a watchmaker's name as well as being able to see & identify the type of movement.


 Snap! :thumbs_up:


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

@gimli @MyrridinEmrys @mel @davidcxn

Thanks for all the great info guys. I checked the hallmarks and wasn't sure if the "b" was for 1857 or 1917 (both use lower case b). I'm surprised it dates that far back. My great grandfather was born in Liverpool in 1900. I wonder if perhaps he got it from his father. More research pending...

After watching the vid (thanks @MyrridinEmrys) I managed to remove the dust cover. I discovered two names which, if my eyes are to be trusted, are: "D Mc Cutcheon" and in a different area "Downpatrick" with a serial number 23584. So far I haven't had any luck tracing those names.

I'll post the photos below.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ontdm447i3jrnou/PocketWatch008.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rc58ej46x85kbwi/PocketWatch009.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/32qn0e8j4nnjfk0/PocketWatch010.png?dl=0

Am I reading those correctly? Do those names ring a bell for anyone?


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Well, the Downpatrick would be the town Mr McCutcheon had his watchmaker shop located in. Currently, that's about 25 miles south of Belfast in what is now Northern Ireland, but would likely have been classed as Ireland and under British rule prior to the partition of Ireland into the North for Northern Ireland and Eire as the Republic in the South. 

A bit of research might throw up some more info using McCutcheon (an Irish name) and Downpatrick as references, and the Irish connection could well tie in with Liverpool as that was a favourite point of entry into the UK mainland for those emigrating from Ireland. :biggrin:

Enjoy the research - - sometimes the finding out can be real fun!


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

David McCUTCHEON of English St, Downpatrick; a watchmaker & jeweller in 1900. Could be the son or even the ol' fellow himself!

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/Mc/McCutcheon.htm



You may guess but I love this sort of historical research!


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Here's your chap on the 1901 Irish census with the wife Mary Ann:



Born 1832 so would be 25 when he made your watch.

Freemason as well:


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

mel said:


> Well, the Downpatrick would be the town Mr McCutcheon had his watchmaker shop located in. Currently, that's about 25 miles south of Belfast in what is now Northern Ireland, but would likely have been classed as Ireland and under British rule prior to the partition of Ireland into the North for Northern Ireland and Eire as the Republic in the South.
> 
> A bit of research might throw up some more info using McCutcheon (an Irish name) and Downpatrick as references, and the Irish connection could well tie in with Liverpool as that was a favourite point of entry into the UK mainland for those emigrating from Ireland. :biggrin:
> 
> Enjoy the research - - sometimes the finding out can be real fun!


 You're absolutely right. I didn't think it would at first, but the research is actually turning our to be really fun :thumbs_up:


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

MyrridinEmrys said:


> Here's your chap on the 1901 Irish census with the wife Mary Ann:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That's amazing research! I've definitely found my new hobby, that's for sure.

It's interesting you mentioned Freemasons. On the first picture I sent, on the chain, there's a little attachment that my grandfather said had something to do with Freemasons. He wasn't sure if it was his father's, but now it looks as if it was the watch maker's.


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Jon Parsons said:


> On the first picture I sent, on the chain, there's a little attachment that my grandfather said had something to do with Freemasons. He wasn't sure if it was his father's, but now it looks as if it was the watch maker's.


 That's the Masonic compass which is usually shown with a set-square: http://burningtaper.blogspot.co.uk/2006/05/symbol-of-day-masonic-square-and.html

I wonder if a piece has broken off the back of it?


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

As a Freemason, Mr McCutcheon would likely have been also a member of one of the Protestant churches in Ireland, and Parish records might help as well. For Jon, it might well be worth searching for your Great Grandfathers name and surname in Parish Records and the Census-es for the areas surrounding Downpatrick - - remember folks tended to NOT move around too much then, there wasn't a lot in local transport services except for Shanks Pony! :biggrin:


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Yet another surprise:


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

MyrridinEmrys said:


> That's the Masonic compass which is usually shown with a set-square: http://burningtaper.blogspot.co.uk/2006/05/symbol-of-day-masonic-square-and.html
> 
> I wonder if a piece has broken off the back of it?


 I took a look at the Masonic compass and nothing appears to have broken off. Maybe it was two individual pieces and one's missing. I'm not sure to be honest.



MyrridinEmrys said:


> Yet another surprise:


 Very interesting!! Is this a key or something? Does this belong to you or is it a picture you found online?



mel said:


> As a Freemason, Mr McCutcheon would likely have been also a member of one of the Protestant churches in Ireland, and Parish records might help as well. For Jon, it might well be worth searching for your Great Grandfathers name and surname in Parish Records and the Census-es for the areas surrounding Downpatrick - - remember folks tended to NOT move around too much then, there wasn't a lot in local transport services except for Shanks Pony! :biggrin:


 That's a great tip, thanks Mel. I'll see what I can find.

@MyrridinEmrys @mel

Do you know if it's possible to use the serial number to track down the exact date it was made? I know databases are kept for some of the bigger watch makers, but I haven't been able to find anything for Mr McCutcheon.


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Jon Parsons said:


> Very interesting!! Is this a key or something? Does this belong to you or is it a picture you found online?
> 
> Do you know if it's possible to use the serial number to track down the exact date it was made? I know databases are kept for some of the bigger watch makers, but I haven't been able to find anything for Mr McCutcheon.


 It's a No 6 watch key - watch/clockmakers had them specially made as advertisements - no telly in those days! It's not mine - just a pic I found with a bit of digging online.

Dating serial numbers for small independent watchmakers will be nigh on impossible. Sometimes paper records end up in local museums or in the national archives if you're lucky.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

You're getting there Jon, but bear in mnd you have what we call a "sterile" dial - - there's no watchmaker's name imprinted onto the dial. It may be that Mr McC simply bought in a complete watch and engraved the movement with his name - - you would have to decide if the engraving of the serial number and maker etc., is all by the same hand and if not it may possibly indicate the above. 

Researching your own ancestor Jon, again, try to find out if he was also a member of one of the Protestant churches, there may well have been a tendency for purchasing from Mr McC as a fellow Mason or church member - - and if your Great Grandfather could afford a watch of this quality back in that time he may well have been quite well off as a fellow merchant or landowner and so would be in Parish or town records, census and so on. :yes:


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

MyrridinEmrys said:


> It's a No 6 watch key - watch/clockmakers had them specially made as advertisements - no telly in those days! It's not mine - just a pic I found with a bit of digging online.
> 
> Dating serial numbers for small independent watchmakers will be nigh on impossible. Sometimes paper records end up in local museums or in the national archives if you're lucky.


 Thanks, I thought that might be the case 

One other thing I'm still not sure about is why would the case have the London leopard hallmark if the watch was made in Downpatrick, Ireland? Does it just mean that a case imported from London was used for a watch that was made in Downpatrick?


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

mel said:


> You're getting there Jon, but bear in mnd you have what we call a "sterile" dial - - there's no watchmaker's name imprinted onto the dial. It may be that Mr McC simply bought in a complete watch and engraved the movement with his name - - you would have to decide if the engraving of the serial number and maker etc., is all by the same hand and if not it may possibly indicate the above.
> 
> Researching your own ancestor Jon, again, try to find out if he was also a member of one of the Protestant churches, there may well have been a tendency for purchasing from Mr McC as a fellow Mason or church member - - and if your Great Grandfather could afford a watch of this quality back in that time he may well have been quite well off as a fellow merchant or landowner and so would be in Parish or town records, census and so on. :yes:


 I've been checking Liverpool and Downpatrick archives but unfortunately still haven't had any luck finding any ancestral info. All I know at this stage is that my Great Grandfather was born in Liverpool in the year 1900. Then at some point he set sail for South Africa which is where I'm from.

I'm actually Skyping my Grandfather tomorrow to see what else he can tell me. I'm not sure if he even knows that the watch dates back to 1857. He may know if it's possible that the watch originally belonged to my Great Great Grandfather. Wouldn't that be something?! Hopefully he can also help explain the Liverpool Downpatrick connection.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Jon, you may want to check on the "Potato Famine" via Google - - a period of mass emigration from Ireland due to failure of the staple veg crops and from "my" school history was around-ish the dates you are researching. That just may be part of the Liverpool/Ireland connection 

Coming along nicely though!


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

mel said:


> Jon, you may want to check on the "Potato Famine" via Google - - a period of mass emigration from Ireland due to failure of the staple veg crops and from "my" school history was around-ish the dates you are researching. That just may be part of the Liverpool/Ireland connection
> 
> Coming along nicely though!


 Also well worth looking into, thank you 

It is coming along nicely! I didn't realise how all consuming this could be


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

I have decided to forego the pleasure of seeking further documentary references to the McCutcheon, Downpatrick, connection, because such excellent work on this has been done already by members here. Instead, I wish to just allow the timepiece to speak for itself, and it certainly does that.

When I took a good look at the pictures, I was suspicious that this watch might date to the last fifteen-odd years of the 19th century, in spite of the seemingly conclusive evidence of the hallmark on the case, which is for London, 1857. The town origin of the hallmark is not in itself a problem because cases made in London (and elsewhere in England) were frequently hallmarked as "London" even if the watches themselves were sold elsewhere, even outside the country.

My reasoning for this concern came from certain features of the watch, including the rather small engraved and uninitialled garter and shield mark on the caseback and the various engraved elements inside the watch. The style of certain of these these features seemed to me to put the watch beyond the 1850s, and I find it somewhat peculiar that while the word, "Downpatrick" is engraved in a flowing Victorian script, the McCutcheon name is in a rather clumsily executed Gothic font. As for the dial, a pocket watch with this form of classic white and black dial featuring a large seconds register and elongated Roman numerals turned up recently in another Watch Forum "query," and that watch was certainly well after the mid-1850s in date.

I have tried to reconcile the apparently contradictory elements in my mind, and I have come to the conclusion that the flamboyant but somewhat "primitive" engraved decoration, including the lion's head, represents provincial work perhaps executed at McCutcheon's workshop - with the maker's name also being engraved on the watch at the same time, at the same shop. The serial number and the town name are more finely executed, rather more in line with the quality of the dial, case, and watch overall. I now reckon that the 1857 date is probably consistent with the various major elements of the watch, which although from different sources and by different hands were put together and synthesized at the McCutcheon workshop to form a saleable product that would be acceptable in a provincial Irish shop away from the cities where more "classy" engraving was available. As to who manufactured the movement and the case, I have no idea, but perhaps more research will eventually solve the problem and complete the solution tothis amazing puzzle thread.

As a final note, I wonder what was going on in the head of the customer and/or purchaser concerning the lion's head engraved in the watch - surely some symbolism was intended here?


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Jon Parsons said:


> One other thing I'm still not sure about is why would the case have the London leopard hallmark if the watch was made in Downpatrick, Ireland? Does it just mean that a case imported from London was used for a watch that was made in Downpatrick?


 Cases were made by case-makers who supplied to watchmakers. Your typical watchmaker would carry a stock of catalogues for his customers to browse and choose from, rather like this example for Sears Roebuck & Co, Chicago from 1897: https://books.google.com/books?id=_gdrCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA405&lpg=PA405&dq=watch+case+makers+catalogue&source=bl&ots=x4V7viuamT&sig=l0KktxfDTkatyuSQuHgMExnMuA0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivqayW_NnXAhXJUN8KHeqaCwwQ6AEIUDAL#v=onepage&q=watch case makers catalogue&f=false

The style of your case, with the shield and garter on the reverse, was pretty common (I have one from 1887 with a Chester Mark but by a London casemaker.) It could be that the watch has been recased at some point due to damage or wear to the original.

Most importantly, does the watch function?


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

> I have decided to forego the pleasure of seeking further documentary references to the McCutcheon, Downpatrick, connection, because such excellent work on this has been done already by members here. Instead, I wish to just allow the timepiece to speak for itself, and it certainly does that.
> 
> When I took a good look at the pictures, I was suspicious that this watch might date to the last fifteen-odd years of the 19th century, in spite of the seemingly conclusive evidence of the hallmark on the case, which is for London, 1857. The town origin of the hallmark is not in itself a problem because cases made in London (and elsewhere in England) were frequently hallmarked as "London" even if the watches themselves were sold elsewhere, even outside the country.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the great commentary and insight. You're absolutely right. Once I had the dust cover, off I was so excited to see some names to start researching, that I never stopped to consider the obviously very different styles of engraving for the two names and serial number.

Do you think it's safe to assume that, despite evidence that seems to indicate that the watch wasn't made in its entirety by Mr McCutcheon, it was at least sold by him, in Downpatrick? Or is it possible that he (or someone else entirely) could have sold watches elsewhere in the UK, like Liverpool for example?


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

MyrridinEmrys said:


> Most importantly, does the watch function?


 Yes, it does. The hands are a little crooked but they're so delicate that I won't even try to straighten them. I definitely want to have someone go over the watch but at least it works :thumbsup:


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

There appears to be some info on your man here: https://www.clockswatches.co.uk/showindex_m.php

It's a subscription site (£2.50 per day) https://www.clockswatches.co.uk/subscribe.php

And there's this based in my home town: http://www.clockrepairrochdale.com/Clock-Makers-Names-Index-M(2264558).htm

They have your man listed and again there's a fee (£5.99)


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Your man was a busy bee indeed: in 1877 he's listed in this trade directory as ' *McCutcheon, D., watch maker, jeweller, stationer, etc., English Street*' and further down the page ' *Northern Fire & Life Insurance Office - David McCutcheon, agent.*'

http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/PT_D1877.htm#DOWNPATRICK


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Well Jon, this puzzle is probably not going to resolve itself in its entirety, but you have certainly created a fantastic "buzz" with this fascinating watch. I still can't quite resolve the garter mark on the case back with the date of the hallmark, and there are these various "hands" when it comes to the interior engraved decoration, names and numbers.

I mentioned that various case makers were working in Britain over the years we presume your watch to have been made, and Myrridin kindly reinforced that snippet of info. I would opine that the most likely events surrounding the manufacture and sale of your watch is that the McCutcheon named on your watch bought the case ready-made, together with a locally-sourced (but probably not locally made) dial and movement. Then he probably had the decoration on the movement and his trade-name added, either by a local out-sourced engraver or by someone in his own workshop. What we don't know is whether the decoration was actually ordered by the customer to make the watch "bespoke" or added as a decorative addition designed to make the watch more attractive for general sale.

Finally, some years after the watch was first retailed, the case was altered, either due to damage as Myrridin suggests above, or because the then owner wished to have a belt/garter and shield motif instead of the original plain back. The style of this engraved yet uninitialled motif on your watch almost certainly dates it to the later 19th century - probably in the 1880s - and adds another little line to the history of your marvellous pocket timepiece.

:biggrin:


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

> The style of this engraved yet uninitialled motif on your watch...


 It might be my eyesight but there does appear to be engraved intials within the shield on enlargement: https://www.dropbox.com/s/my0oabmg579stqn/PocketWatch004.jpg?dl=0

And I can see faint writing on the inner case (could be a full name): https://www.dropbox.com/s/ij5jtc2pqpql2ik/PocketWatch005.jpg?dl=0


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

MyrridinEmrys said:


> It's a subscription site (£2.50 per day) https://www.clockswatches.co.uk/subscribe.php


 This is what the document said:

​


> *McCutcheon, David of Belfast and Downpatrick.*​
> This watch and clockmaker was working about the 1854 to 1894 period. In 1854 he was recorded as working in Belfast. From 1858 he was recorded at English Street, Downpatrick.​
> ​
> *
> ...


 Confirmation that he was in Downpatrick at around the time the watch was made.



MyrridinEmrys said:


> They have your man listed and again there's a fee (£5.99)


 This site said there was a problem and that the transaction couldn't be completed. I'll have to try again.



MyrridinEmrys said:


> Your man was a busy bee indeed: in 1877 he's listed in this trade directory as ' *McCutcheon, D., watch maker, jeweller, stationer, etc., English Street*' and further down the page ' *Northern Fire & Life Insurance Office - David McCutcheon, agent.*'
> 
> http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/PT_D1877.htm#DOWNPATRICK


 He was a real Jack of all trades! I found him listed again on that site...

Town Commissioners - Edward Gardner, solicitor, chairman ; James Jordan, John Lowry, Rev. S. C. Nelson, Alexander Moore, J. R. McConnell, Edward McLester, Peter Fitzpatrick, James McKelvey, William Whiteside, Joseph S. Clarke, James Kerr, James McCabe, *David McCutcheon*, Thomas T. Martin, Wm. Moffet, James Dougherty, Samuel Martin, John Denvir; John Marshall, clerk, English Street.



MyrridinEmrys said:


> It might be my eyesight but there does appear to be engraved intials within the shield on enlargement: https://www.dropbox.com/s/my0oabmg579stqn/PocketWatch004.jpg?dl=0
> 
> And I can see faint writing on the inner case (could be a full name): https://www.dropbox.com/s/ij5jtc2pqpql2ik/PocketWatch005.jpg?dl=0


 You're right, there does appear to be something engraved on the shield, but I've never been able to make it out.

The inner case say "Alfred John Harris" which was my Great Grandfather's name (as well as my Grandfather).


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

> and adds another little line to the history of your marvellous pocket timepiece


 That it does :biggrin:

I'm having a chat to my Grandfather tonight so hopefully he'll be able to add another piece or two to this puzzle.


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Jon Parsons said:


> You're right, there does appear to be something engraved on the shield, but I've never been able to make it out.


 I wonder if lighting it from the side will show it clearer on a photo if the engraving is deep enough to throw shadows?


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Thanks for continuing to shed more light, dear Myrridin, and I do hope that your grandfather can carry on with the task of unravelling the history of your watch, Jon. 

I have now examined that belt and shield motif more closely and although I can't make out what the scratch-engraved initials are, I now notice that the engraving of the motif is quite naive and fits in with that being executed by a provincial rather than a mainstream urban engraving shop or individual. In fact, looking at it closely makes me feel that this engraving was added to the plain original caseback out of desire and not as part of a repair to the watch case. This would be in keeping with the fact that the original hallmark remains inside the cover.


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

MyrridinEmrys said:


> I wonder if lighting it from the side will show it clearer on a photo if the engraving is deep enough to throw shadows?





> I have now examined that belt and shield motif more closely and although I can't make out what the scratch-engraved initials are, I now notice that the engraving of the motif is quite naive and fits in with that being executed by a provincial rather than a mainstream urban engraving shop or individual. In fact, looking at it closely makes me feel that this engraving was added to the plain original caseback out of desire and not as part of a repair to the watch case. This would be in keeping with the fact that the original hallmark remains inside the cover.


 I took more photos of the case back today, from different angles and with the light coming from different directions. I then played around with the contrast and saturation to see if I could get a clearer image. Unfortunately it didn't help much. My best bet is AJH (Alfred John Harris). I compared it to the name engraved inside the case, which I know to be Alfred John Harris, and it does look similar. Both the A and H curl at the bottom of the letter and the J drops down below the line. I'm not sure that I would have guessed AJH without having know what was engraved inside the case so it's a heavily biased guess 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvxwswcq8lbk0eo/AJH.png?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ij5jtc2pqpql2ik/PocketWatch005.jpg?dl=0


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Jon Parsons said:


> My best bet is AJH (Alfred John Harris).


 Spot on - no doubt about it! :thumbsup:


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

I'd agree given we are looking at photos! I just wonder if the AJH in the Shield is more like to have been "scratched " on by the owner as a personalisation rather than engraved by the shop - - it's not deep or defined enough to me to be a "proper" engraving.

(I still have tools from my [shhhhh!] ex-employer with my initials teeped onto the metal to ID them as "mine")

This is panning out well Jon, now have you tried the AJH connection over in Ireland in the Census and other records? :yes:


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

mel said:


> I'd agree given we are looking at photos! I just wonder if the AJH in the Shield is more like to have been "scratched " on by the owner as a personalisation rather than engraved by the shop - - it's not deep or defined enough to me to be a "proper" engraving.
> 
> (I still have tools from my [shhhhh!] ex-employer with my initials teeped onto the metal to ID them as "mine")
> 
> This is panning out well Jon, now have you tried the AJH connection over in Ireland in the Census and other records? :yes:


 You're absolutely right; my Grandfather mentioned that my Great Grandfather "engraved" his own name 

Unfortunately I haven't had any luck tracking AJH down in Liverpool or Downpatrick. I spoke to my Grandfather a couple nights ago. He reconfirmed that AJH was born in Liverpool in 1900. What I didn't know was that AJH's father (my Great Great Grandfather) died in 1906. Then a year later, when AJH was just 7 years old, he boarded a ship with his mom for South Africa.

Would there be records for some so young?

I'm wondering if maybe the watch originally belonged to AJH's father. After his death his wife, knowing the watch was valuable, hung on to it and gave it to AJH years later in South Africa when he was older. AJH's father might have travelled to Ireland for what ever reason and bought the watch.

So I'm pretty much at a dead end now


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Jon, there should be something in the Census records for Liverpool assuming he was living in the city then, even at the age of 6-ish, but tracing it from where you are may be a burdensome task, you would need to go through the Census' using the surname and checking for AJH who would be listed as a dependent child - - a kind of sub-entry to a main adult "head of the household" and usually at that time Male. So you might need also to check AJH's mum's maiden name guessing that she may have been living with say a Brother at the time.

Still, you've done well so far, write down what you've got and keep it with the watch for YOUR family, maybe someone will get interested in geneaology and spend time on the task to find out more.? Census are every ten years, and usually with a 1 at the end, like 1841 every ten through to 1901, 1911 and so on.


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Jon Parsons said:


> Then a year later, when AJH was just 7 years old, he boarded a ship with his mom for South Africa.
> 
> Would there be records for some so young?


 Would this be him, I wonder?



This is a passenger manifest for the SS Runic leaving Liverpool for Cape Town on 6 Jun 1907. There's a young Alfred Harris with siblings and Mum.


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

This is the 1901 census for the same family living in Liverpool. Any of the names ring a bell?


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

MyrridinEmrys said:


> This is the 1901 census for the same family living in Liverpool.


 @MyrridinEmrys you're a wizard behind the keyboard! This is absolutely amazing. I can't thank you enough. It's definitely too much of a coincidence not to be him. I'm still at a loss for words...

Are you able to make out AJH's father's middle initial? John (?) Harris. I see he was a coal dealer, but again can't make out where he was born. It looks like the rest of the family were all born in Lancashire, Liverpool.

Thanks @mel, as you can see @MyrridinEmrys used his 007 security clearance and got hold of some incredible information.


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Jon Parsons said:


> Are you able to make out AJH's father's middle initial? John (?) Harris. I see he was a coal dealer, but again can't make out where he was born. It looks like the rest of the family were all born in Lancashire, Liverpool.


 I can do even better - my wizardry knows no bounds! :thumbsup:

John Elsmore Harris - born abt 1868 in Bristol, Uk. I have an inkling that his middle name is a nod to his wife's maiden name. He died on 1st Oct 1904 according to his probate record. His widow Mary louisa is mentioned as beneficiary.



And the record from the last qarter of 1900 for the birth of AJH, registered in West Derby, Liverpool:


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

When are we starting a Horological Geneaology website then? :rofl:

It is amazing what is now out there in the Public Domain if you start to look and follow the trail markers :yes:


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

MyrridinEmrys said:


> I can do even better - my wizardry knows no bounds! :thumbsup:


 Come on! Now you're just showing off :notworthy:



mel said:


> When are we starting a Horological Geneaology website then? :rofl:
> 
> It is amazing what is now out there in the Public Domain if you start to look and follow the trail markers :yes:


 It's incredible. And the amount of information contained in these documents is just astounding. I continue to be amazed by each one uncovered.

So the question then becomes; how did a man born in Bristol in 1868 buy a watch made in Downpatrick, which was made 11 years before he was born?


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Whew, what a thread! :thumbs_up:

Fantastic contributions from all concerned - oops, perhaps I shouldn't include myself out of modesty. :laugh:


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Modesty depends on what you are wearing (or not) at the time Honor ! Perish the thought of me upside down with my kilt on :rofl:


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

Jon Parsons said:


> So the question then becomes; how did a man born in Bristol in 1868 buy a watch made in Downpatrick, which was made 11 years before he was born?


 The answer to that question may lie with the 1871 census. The young John Elsmore Harris (age 4) is living with his parents Emily (mum) and, guess what? Dad, also John Elsmore Harris (age 36.) But, look at Dad's occupation: I'm pretty sure that says 'Grocer's Traveller.' Could he have bought the watch whilst on his travels up and down the country, I ask myself?



Or was it a handme down from the Grandfather (Josiah Evan(s) Harris) who in 1861 was a Police Officer (age 56)? I don't suppose we'll ever know but it's fun letting the imagination fly now and again!


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## MyrridinEmrys (Sep 27, 2017)

And just to solve the Elsmore connection, here is Josiah's wedding record. Note that he's a widower and also the bride's surname!


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## Jon Parsons (Nov 21, 2017)

MyrridinEmrys said:


> I don't suppose we'll ever know but it's fun letting the imagination fly now and again!


 You're absolutely right. What a journey this has been. I started off trying to find out who made the watch and ended up with so much more.

A big thanks too all who helped unravel the mystery :clap:


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