# Timex Surprise



## Silver Hawk

I'm sure Bill might have told us before and I'm hoping he'll fill the gaps again... :notworthy:

I've never paid too much attention to the Timex electric and electronics --- I suspect this is about to change h34r: . I have about 10 but they remain in the drawer and rarely have batteries in them...and then there are those waiting to be restored but there's always something more interesting to do.

However, I do occasionally get the odd Timex to fix from people who've seen my web site but they are usually the rather boring Model (Calibre in Timex terms) 40 based watches. However, this week I got a rather nice Model 87 to fix....again, I have one, although not working. So when this one burst into life, there were a few surprises.

Firstly, the second hand ticks like a quartz....once every second. This must be unique...I cannot think of any other balance wheel watch, electric or mechanical, that has a second hands that only moves once a second. And Timex have gone to great lengths to produce this effect; the balance still swings 2.5 times / sec (or is it 5 times / second?) but Timex have indroduced a sort of indexing system that means the second hand only receives an impulse every fifth swing. For me, its very strange to see this second hand move very precisely every second rather than the 1/5 second increments that all other balance wheel electrics do. Were they influenced by the newly arrived quartz watches..and did they do this to mimic a quartz?? :huh:

Secondly, the date wheel moves every 12 hours, not every 24 hours like most. Instead the same date stays in the window for the full 24 hours but for the first 12 hours, there is small dot under the date to indicate a.m. At midday, the wheel moves a bit to hide the bottom dot, and new dot appears above the date to indicate p.m. This fooled me initially...I though the calendar mechanism was sticking  . I'm sure they did this to simplify the movement design.

These Model 87s are quality calibres; every bit as good as Hamilton. Unlike Hamiltons, they are transistor controlled, moving coil balance wheel movement. The codes above the "12" hour indicate this is from 1970. The "West Germany" indicates its connection with Laco, a company Timex bought to get a "heads up" on electric watch technology.

Over to you Bill.


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## dombox40

Hi paul well after reading you,re post I just had to go upstairs and start my three Timex electrics up, to my surprise this Timex backset electric does tick once a second this one was also made in West Germany but is probably earlier than the one you,re working on but there,s no day date on this one.


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## langtoftlad

Silver Hawk said:


> Secondly, the date wheel moves every 12 hours, not every 24 hours like most. Instead the same date stays in the window for the full 24 hours but for the first 12 hours, there is small dot under the date to indicate a.m. At midday, the wheel moves a bit to hide the bottom dot, and new dot appears above the date to indicate p.m. This fooled me initially...I though the calendar mechanism was sticking  . I'm sure they did this to simplify the movement design.


I'm sure Mel has mentioned the Timex 'feature' of the AM/PM indicator before - though perhaps not in relation to electric models.

Even though a budget brand, I'm sure Timex was a big enough company to once have it's own R&D department where innovations such as this, and the one second sweep, innovations were developed.

This is appears to be rare in this day and age, most companies seeming happy to clone/copy existing designs rather than develop new ideas and to outsource production elements.

I can see that it is this independent design which makes pieces from companies like Timex interesting to collect despite the budget category.

Nice article Paul.


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## mel

Correct about the a.m./p.m. indicator, if everything is set up correctly, it should click over in a few seconds rather than run over slowly like most mechanicals do their change at midnight. Bill (Watchnutz) will likely have more info, but AFAIK, this feature first appeared on the #85 cal movement (the #84 with calendar). I don't know exact dates, but it did carry onto other movements within the Timex electric ranges. :yes:

The date wheel has one dot in between the numbers 1 to 31 - like 1.2.3. - etc., and it's the amount of shift that places the dot above or below the number in the date window. Deceptively simple, and quite clever. Dot below the number = a.m., and above it's for p.m. :lol:

The one Dombox has looks like it would be a #84 cal, and this is the same movement as the #85, the difference is a "bolt-on" for the date wheel and change mechanism.

*EDIT*^^^ cancel the line above, not sure if the backset is an #84, on reflection - I don't think it is, again, Bill - _the fount of all Timex knowledge_ will put us right, I'm sure! :yes:


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## watchnutz

Not much to add. The 87 that Paul has is the only backset in the Timex line that has the thick film transistor control. Otherwise it is the same as the earlier 84 and 85(date) movements. All timex backsets , including the earlier 67, had the one second jump feature so they preceeded the quartz . Below is a photo of the progression of the Timex backset electric movement progression. (sorry for the poor photo) L-R Laco, 67, 84,87. In 1958 Timex went to Europe to buy the Gruen company but found they had major financial trouble and bought Laco-Durowe instead. They thought Laco was further ahead in developing electric watches than they proved to be. It took 3 years before they could bring the electric to production and they found the Laco operation so entrenched in old methods as to be able to do mass production and sold the company to ESA in 1965 and opened it's own plant nearby in Pforzheim. Most electric Timex were made in their plant in Germany with others made in Great Britain and France.










Their own R&D??? From the beginning Timex developed their own movements for all their watches mechanical, auto and electric except for the short lived 17 J that was made by Hattori. Most folks don't realize how big Timex is. For many years they made all the Poloroid Land cameras, the Sinclair computers and designed and built military timers and fuses.They still make watches under many other brand names. The current higher priced TX line of retrograde autos use a movent designed by Timex in their German operation and made in China. It uses 5 motors.


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## Silver Hawk

watchnutz said:


> Not much to add.


You already have Professor Bill (I get to call you "professor" now  )



watchnutz said:


> All timex backsets , including the earlier 67, had the one second jump feature so they preceeded the quartz . Below is a photo of the progression of the Timex backset electric movement progression. (sorry for the poor photo) L-R Laco, 67, 84,87.


Well I never knew that. Any idea why they choose the 1 second jump Bill? Also, your photo shows 4, but the legend mentions 3...what is the other one?

These back sets are soooo different to the nasty, ugly, Model 40 etc....and yet there must have been quite an overlap in their respective timelines. Can you give us some insight on this? Are the back sets just a left over from their Laco purchase? Where was the development done for the Model 40s?

So many questions. Timex Model / Calibre numbers continue to do my head in.


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## johndozier

The jump or dead seconds feature was also found on a number of mechanical watches by Rolex Omega and Hy Moser. The Moser was based on a Chezard movement. I have a pristine example called the "Esculape".


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## mel

Paul, again AFAIK, the one in Bill's piccie on the left is the Laco movement, cased with a Timex signature, the other three are the #67, ##85 and #87. :yes:

There may be some question as to whether the Laco movement was used by other watchmakers - considering they are *known* to have been unable to manufacture enough to satisfy the Timex requirements. I've come across a mention that they were contracted to supply other makers before Timex bought them out, and may have continued with some production to fulfil those contracts? :huh:


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## Silver Hawk

mel said:


> Paul, again AFAIK, the one in Bill's piccie on the left is the Laco movement, cased with a Timex signature, the other three are the #67, ##85 and #87. :yes:


Got it...thanks Mel.


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## watchnutz

Paul, the model 40 was introduced in 1969 so there was a slight overlap. I don't know the reason they changesd, but usually mass production and cost were involved along with reliability. I suspect they might also have wanted to get away from the front opener style also. Information and history is hard to come by on Timex. BTW the middlebury Connecticut plant produced it's first experimental quartz watch in that same year. The company was so vast and fast moving with introductions and huge volume of units, that there are no readily available sources of data. The Timex museum does not have a traditional curator or historian but rather a director. What little info I have I accumulated through catalogs,manuals, my time in the museum achives and just coming across new finds. So no professor here but a student.

The models in the photo were all named. the first was the Laco model which I do not have a number for nor know if one exists. BTW since you prefer calibre, the #67 is 861 cal, the #84 is 870 cal, The #85 is 880 cal, and the #87 is 882 cal.

You don't show the case for your watch but the model is rarer than many others. The crown on the dial indicates it is part of the "Prestige" collection which included the 14k Dorado. It was advertised touting the transistorized control circuit with "electronic accuracy". From the model number on the dial I can see it was the case with horn lugs. They also made one in a cushion case with the same dial. They sold for $50 back then.

Mel, Laco did not have a working electric when Timex bought them. They did still make mechanical watches. It took Timex 3 years to get to production. I have 3 of the ones with Laco on the dial in the collection. The problem with Laco seemed to be that the plant and people were just not capable of mass production in the numbers that Timex needed.


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## Silver Hawk

watchnutz said:


> BTW since you prefer calibre, the #67 is 861 cal, the #84 is 870 cal, The #85 is 880 cal, and the #87 is 882 cal.


Great info Bill...do I prefer calibre? I'm not sure. I get really confused between model and calibre when it comes to Timex....Timex themselves seems to prefer model number in their documentation.

And how does the number "40" fit into the model number sequence? :huh:


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## stonedeaf

Silver Hawk said:


> I'm sure Bill might have told us before and I'm hoping he'll fill the gaps again... :notworthy:
> 
> I've never paid too much attention to the Timex electric and electronics --- I suspect this is about to change h34r: . I have about 10 but they remain in the drawer and rarely have batteries in them...and then there are those waiting to be restored but there's always something more interesting to do.
> 
> However, I do occasionally get the odd Timex to fix from people who've seen my web site but they are usually the rather boring Model (Calibre in Timex terms) 40 based watches. However, this week I got a rather nice Model 87 to fix....again, I have one, although not working. So when this one burst into life, there were a few surprises.
> 
> Firstly, the second hand ticks like a quartz....once every second. This must be unique...I cannot think of any other balance wheel watch, electric or mechanical, that has a second hands that only moves once a second. And Timex have gone to great lengths to produce this effect; the balance still swings 2.5 times / sec (or is it 5 times / second?) but Timex have indroduced a sort of indexing system that means the second hand only receives an impulse every fifth swing. For me, its very strange to see this second hand move very precisely every second rather than the 1/5 second increments that all other balance wheel electrics do. Were they influenced by the newly arrived quartz watches..and did they do this to mimic a quartz?? :huh:
> 
> Secondly, the date wheel moves every 12 hours, not every 24 hours like most. Instead the same date stays in the window for the full 24 hours but for the first 12 hours, there is small dot under the date to indicate a.m. At midday, the wheel moves a bit to hide the bottom dot, and new dot appears above the date to indicate p.m. This fooled me initially...I though the calendar mechanism was sticking  . I'm sure they did this to simplify the movement design.
> 
> These Model 87s are quality calibres; every bit as good as Hamilton. Unlike Hamiltons, they are transistor controlled, moving coil balance wheel movement. The codes above the "12" hour indicate this is from 1970. The "West Germany" indicates its connection with Laco, a company Timex bought to get a "heads up" on electric watch technology.
> 
> Over to you Bill.


Absolutely fascinating, I also never knew how big Timex were and have always thought of them as the Cheapo end of the Market :no:

I have just acquired this non working one which I like, - is it worth getting repaired ?










Nice clear face










Any thoughts, comments etc on repairability - most welcome


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## langtoftlad

stonedeaf said:


> Any thoughts, comments etc on repairability - most welcome


Needs a battery


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## watchnutz

Hawk just loves to work on those model 40's!  Seriously though they are pretty hardy and many times just need a clean and lube that is easily done. About the only other normal problem is a wear of the contact or switch wire. Coil problems are very rare in these, in my experiance. Many times also you just need to excite the balance with a shake after replacing the battery. These watches are the exact opposite of a mechanical . In these the balance, which is switch controlled, drives the train where in a mechanical the spring drives the train and the balance. Before going crazy try just laying a 301 cell on the contacts and start the balance with a toothpick or small brush (gently) and see if it takes off. Make sure the cell is touching both the contact in the recess and the cell case (+) is touching the brass contact on the side

when trying this.


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## Silver Hawk

Bill, I had a NOS "40" to do about 6 months ago....the contact wire solder joint had failed.

The contrast between these pressed steel "40"s and those back set movements couldn't be greater. But like you say, this is a hardy movement and no chance of breaking a balance pivot...it doesn't have any  .


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## watchnutz

Armalloy, the secret of why so many old Timexes took a lickin'.

Yep, as I said the contact wire is the weakest point on the movement, between the joint breaking or wear at the switching end. Easy to slip a donor in place except for aligning. Right?


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## stonedeaf

watchnutz said:


> Hawk just loves to work on those model 40's!  Seriously though they are pretty hardy and many times just need a clean and lube that is easily done. About the only other normal problem is a wear of the contact or switch wire. Coil problems are very rare in these, in my experiance. Many times also you just need to excite the balance with a shake after replacing the battery. These watches are the exact opposite of a mechanical . In these the balance, which is switch controlled, drives the train where in a mechanical the spring drives the train and the balance. Before going crazy try just laying a 301 cell on the contacts and start the balance with a toothpick or small brush (gently) and see if it takes off. Make sure the cell is touching both the contact in the recess and the cell case (+) is touching the brass contact on the side
> 
> when trying this.


 I tried this and no luck I'm afraid but there is a small brass "wheel?" just inside the balance wheel which seems to rotate or vibrate (difficult to tell which) when the battery is in position. Any help?


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## Silver Hawk

stonedeaf said:


> watchnutz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hawk just loves to work on those model 40's!  Seriously though they are pretty hardy and many times just need a clean and lube that is easily done. About the only other normal problem is a wear of the contact or switch wire. Coil problems are very rare in these, in my experiance. Many times also you just need to excite the balance with a shake after replacing the battery. These watches are the exact opposite of a mechanical . In these the balance, which is switch controlled, drives the train where in a mechanical the spring drives the train and the balance. Before going crazy try just laying a 301 cell on the contacts and start the balance with a toothpick or small brush (gently) and see if it takes off. Make sure the cell is touching both the contact in the recess and the cell case (+) is touching the brass contact on the side
> 
> when trying this.
> 
> 
> 
> I tried this and no luck I'm afraid but there is a small brass "wheel?" just inside the balance wheel which seems to rotate or vibrate (difficult to tell which) when the battery is in position. Any help?
Click to expand...

I'm wondering if you're referring to the coil that is mounted on the balance....if it shuddering when the battery is applied, that's a good sign...at least the coil is not damaged.


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## feenix

Got one of these myself. I've never had the back off it but it does have the AM/PM indication and the one second tick so I'll assume its the same model 

Nice to have a bit more information on them, and to hear that they are better quality than I'd originally thought. I bought it originally because it was a back-set, electric Timex with a nice clean dial. Now I just like it more.


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## Dick Browne

Oddly enough, I find that the backsets are the weakest in my collection, or maybe I've just been unlucky. I've got half a dozen backsets, and only one works. I've got many more of the more common movements, and just about all of them work. Generally, I get them, open them up and if there's no battery, I just pop one in, give the balance a little "kick-start" and it starts ticking. If the battery is in place, then a clean around of the contacts, and making sure that the contact spring is in the right location on the balance, and it'll work just fine. The biggest killers I come across are that contact spring, and the hairspring which often gets messed up by clumsy people trying to get the balance spinning.

Just my observation, not to be confused with truth or fact.

Love the dial your showing there Paul, I've got a very similar dial on a (big 'Q') quartz-controlled balance, and it's one of my two favorite Timex electrics.

Dick


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## mel

One prob with the back sets, (and not just Timex) for a lot of folks who do their own thing, clean and lube wise, is they come out via the crystal. Somehow that takes more skill and confidence than sticking a case knife under the back. I'm also convinced that many watchmakers felt the same, and that's one reason why so many seem to have been "Botcherised", they were slightly unusual and out of the ordinary and the rest is human nature :yes:

I've a couple of scrappers where someone has literally "forced" the movement back into the case onto the backset but very slightly mis-aligned.  Since the crystal was back on correctly, I assume this was done by someone with enough knowledge to take the watch apart correctly, but maybe didn't RTFM to do much more.


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