# Waltham Pocket Watch With Dennison Case



## Brownlee

First, let me admit that I have absolutely zero expertise in watches.

I have a Waltham pocket watch with a Dennison case, which has a small opening, about one inch across through which the time can be seen. There are two serial numbers: (a) 914161 on the case and (B) 25519067 on the movement itself. The movement says "seven jewels." I see no "K" to indicate gold, so the casing may be brass??? Does anyone out there know anything about the watch, case, etc.? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have a number of other pocket watch that I would like to discuss, but the Waltham is my first priority.

Many thanks.

Scott


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## a6cjn

Pictures are always nice but I think you are describing a Waltham Half hunter watch

A bit like this one










Put your movement's number here to find out some info.

The Dennison case, unless clearly marked, is probably gold filled, you may find a mark which says 'guaranteed to last for 10/20 years' which will indicate that it is filled

Chris


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## Roger the Dodger

This type of case is known as a 'half hunter', where you can see the time without opening the case. If the cover doesn't have the window, it's called a 'full hunter'. The hour hand should have two spades on it, one that's visible through the window, and a second one that's revealed when the cover is opened.

Half hunter closed....note the spade on the hour hand.










Same watch opened...now you can see the two spades.










The serial no. dates it to 1926 (1926-25200000--1927-26100000)

Dennison cases usually have a 'Sun,Moon,Star' trade mark on them and are either solid gold, or gold filled, or sometimes other metals. If gold filled, they normally say Guaranteed to be made of two plates of xxct gold with plate of composition in between and to wear for 10-20-25 years on the curvette or movement cover. Hope this helps with your research....I'm sure others will add to this or correct me if I've made a mistake. Good Luck! (Some pics would be helpful!)


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## Roger the Dodger

Sorry Chris, I was writing my post while you were posting yours, so didn't see what you'd put.......looks like we agree though! :yes:


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## Brownlee

Chris and Roger:

I seem to be having Internet problems, so I hope that this message is posted. I've tried three times with no luck.

The pictures you so kindly provided are very close to my watch, except that the hour hand is single-spaded, not double-spaded. The case does show "Guarnteed for 10 years."

I suppose the question is: Does the watch have any value???

Your collective wisdom would be appreciated.

Scott


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## Roger the Dodger

That will probably be a 'Star' case. Look at 'Dennison Cases, Sun Moon Star..what do they mean', for more information....(this was a post I did in pocket watches a couple of months ago...on page 3 at the moment)

As to value...very difficult...your best bet is to go to somewhere like eBay and look at prices there. Look at finished listings to see what similar watches went for.


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## a6cjn

Roger the Dodger said:


> As to value...very difficult...your best bet is to go to somewhere like eBay and look at prices there. Look at finished listings to see what similar watches went for.


That's good advice.

However, 'value' is a subjective quality, these days pocket watch values tend to be determined by the case, if it was solid gold then the value would be dependant on the K - 9, 10, 14 or the most valuable, 18K.

As yours is a filled case, then a collector would initially look at condition, is the movement running, has the dial any hairline cracks, is the case rubbed or dinged. Each one of those aspects will significantly impact on a collector's decision to buy.

Without pictures or a condition report, a valuation would be pretty pointless

Chris


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## Shangas

Chris is right, unfortunately.

These days, a pocket-watch's value lies only in the case's gold or silver content, mostly. Very few people value them according to how good the movement is.

I'd love to see your watches!


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## AaronC

Shangas said:


> Chris is right, unfortunately.
> 
> These days, a pocket-watch's value lies only in the case's gold or silver content, mostly. Very few people value them according to how good the movement is.
> 
> I'd love to see your watches!


Wow Shangas, I was very surprised to read this.

I have Cooksey Shugart's latest book, and he quotes prices varying all over the board for pocket watches. Within Waltham watches, for example, I see a variety of 7j watches running from a low of $75 up to $150 (avg buying price), all with standard cases. For better movements, the prices he lists are sometimes quite high.

Are you saying that the prices Shugart is quoting aren't correct? That the quality of the movement inside the case isn't relevant to the price of the watch?

Aaron


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## Shangas

Hi Aaron,

Perhaps I wasn't very clear...

In a professional, watch-selling/trading environment, certainly the quality of the movement has a significant effect on the price. A better-quality watch will certainly cost more to buy.

I was referring more to the informal situations where a person is just trying to get as much money out of the watch as they can. They calculate the value wholly on the value of the gold and sell it at that, regardless of how good (or bad) the movement is. Let's face it...Not many people wear pocket-watches these days (I'm one of a few, here, who still do). Therefore, it doesn't always make sense to sell the watch for the quality of the movement...not many people are going to care about that. But everyone cares about gold. So it's probably more likely that the seller will price the watch according to the gold (or silver, if that be the case) content in the watch-case.

All that said, I still agree with what Chris says. Values are HIGHLY subjective. They can change at the drop of a hat. At times where gold isn't worth much, a watch might be priced more according to the quality of the movement. When gold is worth a lot, then the pricing might change, to be affected by the quality of the case.

Hopefully that makes things a bit easier to understand.


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## AaronC

Shangas said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> Perhaps I wasn't very clear...
> 
> In a professional, watch-selling/trading environment, certainly the quality of the movement has a significant effect on the price. A better-quality watch will certainly cost more to buy.
> 
> I was referring more to the informal situations where a person is just trying to get as much money out of the watch as they can. They calculate the value wholly on the value of the gold and sell it at that, regardless of how good (or bad) the movement is. Let's face it...Not many people wear pocket-watches these days (I'm one of a few, here, who still do). Therefore, it doesn't always make sense to sell the watch for the quality of the movement...not many people are going to care about that. But everyone cares about gold. So it's probably more likely that the seller will price the watch according to the gold (or silver, if that be the case) content in the watch-case.
> 
> All that said, I still agree with what Chris says. Values are HIGHLY subjective. They can change at the drop of a hat. At times where gold isn't worth much, a watch might be priced more according to the quality of the movement. When gold is worth a lot, then the pricing might change, to be affected by the quality of the case.
> 
> Hopefully that makes things a bit easier to understand.


Thanks Shangas. That makes sense.

I'm curious how much gold is in a gold filled case. I can't imagine that it's very much. When a $75 price is quoted for a pocket watch, is that really just enough to purchase the gold plating in the case and you're getting the movement for free?

I have noticed that eBay prices are frequently pretty close to the "Shugart price", although maybe ebay pricing is close to the Shugart price simply because people can look up a Shugart price and bid to that level (a possible example of the Heisenberg uncertainty principal, as applied to pocket watches).

Personally, when I'm buying a watch I have two goals: something pretty that I'd like to see on my wrist, or something with a fabulous or historically significant movement that I'd be proud to own (or hopefully both at once).

Someone once explained to me that a cheap quartz watch keeps excellent time, so any additional price you're paying above that is for a watch's jewelry value.

Aaron

PS - I'm curious how you actually use pocket watches as a practical daily watch. Can you describe this more please?


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## Shangas

Sure. I wear it with my waistcoat.

Or, when I'm not wearing it with my waistcoat, I'm wearing it in the breast-pocket of my shirt.

Or, when I'm wearing a shirt without a pocket, I put it in the watch-pocket of my trousers.

Or I put it in the breast-pocket of my coat and hook the chain to the lapel buttonhole.

But usually with my waistcoat, with an Albert chain.


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## Brownlee

Colleagues:

First, let me thank you for all your assistance. Having zero experience with watches and only marginally more with Forums such as "The Watch Forum," you have all made me feel very welcome.

Second, Chris provided a link to a database of Waltham watches. My question is: Do similar databases exist for other manufacturers? Reason I ask is that I have a number of other pocket watches to track down.

Third, there were several reference to the "Shugart Price." Is this a book that is available either on-line or [where]?

Fourth, I'm trying to borrow a digital camera so that I can provide picture of the items.

Many thanks for all your patience with a novice.

Cheers

P.S. You'll note, I hope, that I've added a graphic representing my interest in High Middle Ages monasticism. The picture is the abbey at Tornus in France, my favourite building.

Scott


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## Shangas

Hi Scott,

Major American watchmakers, such as Waltham, Hamilton, Elgin, Rockford, South Bend and several others did keep serial-number & date lists. These may be accessed at www.pocketwatchsite.com Scroll down to "Antique Pocket Watch Information" at the bottom and you'll be able to examine the date-lists.


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## Roger the Dodger

AaronC said:


> PS - I'm curious how you actually use pocket watches as a practical daily watch. Can you describe this more please?


Here you go Aaron, this should give you an idea here


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## Brownlee

Shangas said:


> Hi Scott,
> 
> Major American watchmakers, such as Waltham, Hamilton, Elgin, Rockford, South Bend and several others did keep serial-number & date lists. These may be accessed at www.pocketwatchsite.com Scroll down to "Antique Pocket Watch Information" at the bottom and you'll be able to examine the date-lists.


Shangas:

Many thanks. Greatly appreciated.

Scott


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## AaronC

Roger the Dodger said:


> AaronC said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I'm curious how you actually use pocket watches as a practical daily watch. Can you describe this more please?
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go Aaron, this should give you an idea here
Click to expand...

Wow, that's great Roger. Thanks for the excellent link! I didn't know about that lengthy discussion about watch chains.

I never wear a vest, so I'm still trying to picture myself with a chain in the lapel hole of my suit. Maybe I'll go for the right hand pants pocket.

Just picked up a nice pocket watch, in transit now. I need to figure this out so I can start using it after its overhaul. :thumbsup:

Aaron


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## AaronC

Brownlee said:


> Colleagues:
> 
> First, let me thank you for all your assistance. Having zero experience with watches and only marginally more with Forums such as "The Watch Forum," you have all made me feel very welcome.
> 
> Second, Chris provided a link to a database of Waltham watches. My question is: Do similar databases exist for other manufacturers? Reason I ask is that I have a number of other pocket watches to track down.
> 
> Third, there were several reference to the "Shugart Price." Is this a book that is available either on-line or [where]?
> 
> Fourth, I'm trying to borrow a digital camera so that I can provide picture of the items.
> 
> Many thanks for all your patience with a novice.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> P.S. You'll note, I hope, that I've added a graphic representing my interest in High Middle Ages monasticism. The picture is the abbey at Tornus in France, my favourite building.
> 
> Scott


Hi Scott -

This is the Shugart book I was referring to.

Other people on this forum can fill you in better than I can on how accurate it is. There's lots of info in there beyond just prices, though. Really nice book of raw data for collectors.

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Price-Guide-Watches-No/dp/1574326430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280650499&sr=8-1

Aaron


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## Shangas

AaronC said:


> Roger the Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AaronC said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I'm curious how you actually use pocket watches as a practical daily watch. Can you describe this more please?
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go Aaron, this should give you an idea here
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, that's great Roger. Thanks for the excellent link! I didn't know about that lengthy discussion about watch chains.
> 
> I never wear a vest, so I'm still trying to picture myself with a chain in the lapel hole of my suit. Maybe I'll go for the right hand pants pocket.
> 
> Just picked up a nice pocket watch, in transit now. I need to figure this out so I can start using it after its overhaul. :thumbsup:
> 
> Aaron
Click to expand...

Hi Aaron,

If you regularly wear a two-piece suit, the watch goes into the breast-pocket of your jacket with the T-bar through the lapel buttonhole.

If you mostly wear sorta smart-casual kinda clothes, then the watch goes into the small, watch-pocket on the right of your trousers and the chain clips to a belt-loop or clips onto the belt itself (depending on the kind of chain).

If you're wearing a waistcoat...well that's rather self-explanatory.

Hope you love your watch and show us some photos of it when it comes!


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## AaronC

Shangas said:


> AaronC said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Roger the Dodger said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AaronC said:
> 
> 
> 
> PS - I'm curious how you actually use pocket watches as a practical daily watch. Can you describe this more please?
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go Aaron, this should give you an idea here
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, that's great Roger. Thanks for the excellent link! I didn't know about that lengthy discussion about watch chains.
> 
> I never wear a vest, so I'm still trying to picture myself with a chain in the lapel hole of my suit. Maybe I'll go for the right hand pants pocket.
> 
> Just picked up a nice pocket watch, in transit now. I need to figure this out so I can start using it after its overhaul. :thumbsup:
> 
> Aaron
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Aaron,
> 
> If you regularly wear a two-piece suit, the watch goes into the breast-pocket of your jacket with the T-bar through the lapel buttonhole.
> 
> If you mostly wear sorta smart-casual kinda clothes, then the watch goes into the small, watch-pocket on the right of your trousers and the chain clips to a belt-loop or clips onto the belt itself (depending on the kind of chain).
> 
> If you're wearing a waistcoat...well that's rather self-explanatory.
> 
> Hope you love your watch and show us some photos of it when it comes!
Click to expand...

Will do!

I'm still a bit doubtful about using the lapel buttonhole. Do you put the t-bar in front with the chain behind, or vise-versa? I frequently take my jacket off when at work, so I loose access to my watch...

Question for you: my pockets slowly accumulate lint. Is this a problem for the pocket watch if you keep it there, or ar the seals sufficient to protect the mechanism?

Aaron


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## Brownlee

Aaron:

Many thanks for the link to the Shugert text; it is greatly appreciated.

Scott


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## AaronC

Brownlee said:


> Aaron:
> 
> Many thanks for the link to the Shugert text; it is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Scott


My pleasure. I hope you enjoy it! :thumbsup:

Aaron


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## Shangas

> Will do!
> 
> I'm still a bit doubtful about using the lapel buttonhole. Do you put the t-bar in front with the chain behind, or vise-versa? I frequently take my jacket off when at work, so I loose access to my watch...
> 
> Question for you: my pockets slowly accumulate lint. Is this a problem for the pocket watch if you keep it there, or ar the seals sufficient to protect the mechanism?
> 
> Aaron


T-bar enters from the FRONT so that it's hidden by the lapel.

And yes, the seals on watch-cases are tight enough that lint shouldn't be able to get in.


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