# Help with a Pierre Jaquard watch.



## BenJammin138 (Nov 6, 2020)

Hello everyone. I posting to see if I can get any help on this Pierre Jaquard 17 Jewels watch. It was passed down to me from my Grandfather when he passed 12 years ago and I've only just rediscovered it after being lost in storage for all that time. I have tried searching for more information but for the life of me can't find any on this particular design. Any help would be much appreciated.

Kind regards,

Ben.


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

Hi Ben,

I can onlu say that this is a contemporary watch, the movement inside is small, 'wrist' and with center second hand. If You open the back cover and show a picture of the movement, we will be able to tell something more...


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

I tend to associate this sort of pocket watch with a period from the late 1960s through to the end of the 1970s, and this dating seems to fit in with extant vintage Pierre Jacquard wristwatches illustrated online. I see that the brand name does appear on some recent watches as well.

As far as the producer/manufacturer of Pierre Jacquard watches is concerned, they have been associated with the Viva Time Corporation of New York. However, I have my doubts about this attribution of the brand; some Pierre Jacquard watches seem to predate the formation of Viva Time Corporation. The Viva Time Corporation was founded in 1978, with "P. Peugeot" as its first brand. Current Viva Time Corporation brands include P. Peugeot, with "gino franco" and "TKO Orlogi" as the other two brands. Apparently "Timetech" was/is also a Viva Time brand.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

There was a US trademark for "Pierre Jacquard" filed by VIVA TIME CORP in Dec 1993, which says "first use anywhere 1993". I'm inclined to agree with @Always"watching" that a lot of PJ wristwatches on Ebay and elsewhere look like 1970s, though the dial on the OP's pocket watch looks rather clean to be that old. The style of the watch with the hunting scene - which PJ do a lot of, as well as railway themes, - is harking back to a much earlier era, so I'm not sure style tells us much.

There's another "hunting" watch on truevintageantiques.com signed PJ on the dial, but "Bader Ltd" inside the caseback.

There's also a wristwatch on Etsy with a logo on the movement that might help.










and another one on Ebay signed "Hong Kong dial".


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Thanks for that Norman @spinynorman. I do agree that pocket watches with embossed and engraved railway and hunting designs have been made over a long period. My dating of Ben's pocket watch is difficult to explain because it includes a detailed appraisal of the style and quality of the decoration of the watch as well as other more general features, including whether or not a European/American country of origin designation is present. My experience in handling many of these watches, branded with various company names, has led me to a conclusion that the 1970s was probably their hey day, although I agree that a later date for Ben's example is quite possible., especially when we are dealing with Chinese-made items. Interestingly, I have come across an undated 17J gold tone Pierre Jacqard hunter pocket watch which is marked, "Yema, France" inside; the plot thickens.

I have had another look at the Pierre Jacquard watches illustrated online and there seems to be two periods for these. The first period appears to start in the later 1960s and goes through the 1970s; it includes mechanical examples marked "ELECTRA" which name was probably a strategy (used by some other companies majoring in cheap mechanical watches) to "confuse" the buyer into thinking that the watch contained new electronic technology, notably quartz. The second period would seem to comprise more modern, mainly quartz, Pierre Jacquard watches. Some of these probably date to the 1980s but many are more modern and would fit in with the period starting in about 1993, the year the Pierre Jacquard trademark was filed by Viva Time. The Pierre Jacquard brand name is still appearing on brand new inexpensive quartz wristwatches and looking at Amazon.com, it is evident that the Pierre Jacquard name is now a subsidiary of Peugeot Watches, which is also associated with the brand name, "P. Peugeot", used by Viva Time Corporation.

It seems that Pierre Jacquard is a tricky customer when it comes to the exact dating, and attribution, of many Pierre Jacquard watches. More research is required, but given that Pierre Jacquard watches do not set the horological world alight, I cannot see the puzzling situation being resolved any time soon.

A boxed Pierre Jacquard Electra wristwatch from about the mid-1970s (pic from i.pinimg.com/originals):










Gold tone Pierre Jacquard mechanical 17J hunter pocket watch by Bader Ltd (see note below), difficult to date exactly, like Ben's watch above (pics from Carol's True Vintage and Antiques at stackpathcdn.com)





































NOTE ON BADER LTD: Some details about Bader Ltd (Bader & Hafner S.A.) are given by me in my topic on Mentor watches, entitled "Mentor Watches: A History Uncovered", posted on the Forum on 31 March 2017.


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## Balaton1109 (Jul 5, 2015)

spinynorman said:


> There was a US trademark for "Pierre Jacquard" filed by VIVA TIME CORP in Dec 1993, which says "first use anywhere 1993". I'm inclined to agree with @Always"watching" that a lot of PJ wristwatches on Ebay and elsewhere look like 1970s, though the dial on the OP's pocket watch looks rather clean to be that old. The style of the watch with the hunting scene - which PJ do a lot of, as well as railway themes, - is harking back to a much earlier era, so I'm not sure style tells us much.
> 
> There's another "hunting" watch on truevintageantiques.com signed PJ on the dial, but "Bader Ltd" inside the caseback.
> 
> ...


 Not sure if this helps, but the logo is that of the USSR brand *Slava *and seems to have been in use from 1958 onwards. The movement is a 21j Slava 2414.

Regards.



Always said:


> Thanks for that Norman @spinynorman. I do agree that pocket watches with embossed and engraved railway and hunting designs have been made over a long period. My dating of Ben's pocket watch is difficult to explain because it includes a detailed appraisal of the style and quality of the decoration of the watch as well as other more general features, including whether or not a European/American country of origin designation is present. My experience in handling many of these watches, branded with various company names, has led me to a conclusion that the 1970s was probably their hey day, although I agree that a later date for Ben's example is quite possible., especially when we are dealing with Chinese-made items. Interestingly, I have come across an undated 17J gold tone Pierre Jacqard hunter pocket watch which is marked, "Yema, France" inside; the plot thickens.
> 
> I have had another look at the Pierre Jacquard watches illustrated online and there seems to be two periods for these. The first period appears to start in the later 1960s and goes through the 1970s; it includes mechanical examples marked "ELECTRA" which name was probably a strategy (used by some other companies majoring in cheap mechanical watches) to "confuse" the buyer into thinking that the watch contained new electronic technology, notably quartz. The second period would seem to comprise more modern, mainly quartz, Pierre Jacquard watches. Some of these probably date to the 1980s but many are more modern and would fit in with the period starting in about 1993, the year the Pierre Jacquard trademark was filed by Viva Time. The Pierre Jacquard brand name is still appearing on brand new inexpensive quartz wristwatches and looking at Amazon.com, it is evident that the Pierre Jacquard name is now a subsidiary of Peugeot Watches, which is also associated with the brand name, "P. Peugeot", used by Viva Time Corporation.
> 
> ...


 FWIW, the movement in the Bader 17j Hunter is an EB 8800,

Regards.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Many thanks for that useful snippet of info, dear @Balaton1109. Judging by the approximate dates for the EB 8800, the above pocket watch by Bader Ltd fits neatly into my estimated time frame for this type of pocket watch. Ebauches Bettlach went bankrupt at some time in the early 1980s, having been unable to weather the Quartz Crisis, and the caliber EB 8800 movement seems to have emerged in about the mid 1960s. when it became widely used at the lower end of the market. As Viva Time Corporation was founded in 1978, we cannot say for sure that the Bader Ltd pocket watch branded Pierre Jacquard predates Viva Time - it depends on when production/sale of EB 8800 movements ceased.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

So far we've had Yema, Bader/EB, Slava, plus I saw a mechanical chronograph with Pierre Jacquard and France on the dial. It's almost like someone's been buying up old watches and rebranding the dials.

I found export shipping stats for Viva Time Corp. One of their main trading partners is Belly Watch Co of Hong Kong.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Fascinating snippets of info, dear Norman. This is becoming quite surreal... :biggrin:


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