# A Bike too far



## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Someone care to enlighten me as to what exactly this will be good for, apart from convincing some very sad, menopausal old men that they are still babe magnets









Triumph are very keen to point out that they believe "nothing standard will beat it in a straight line"

I have visions of these buried in hedges on corners up and down the country come next Summer.


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## Garry (Feb 25, 2003)

What's the motor in it Andy.....?????


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## pauluspaolo (Feb 24, 2003)

Personally I think it's superb. Not sure what it'll be good for but what does it matter? It's probably great fun and effortless to ride. I'm not a biker but I hope it's a success for Triumph.

Garry the engine, believe it or not, is a 2.3 litre triple







, so it's all a bit epic really!

Cheers

Paul


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## Garry (Feb 25, 2003)

.......Bugger, is that all !!, I thought it would be something unusual and utterly monstrous.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Gary

It's an in line triple producing 147 ftlb of torque at about 2500 rpm.

Personally, as a rider of 22 years and with experience of at least as many bikes, I think it will be a huge hit.

Triumph know that there is a huge market out there for this type of bike.

That is to say the more mature/elderley man who simply wants to impress others with big numbers. I do believe that most of the bikes bought, in this country at least, will not be ridden much. It'll be the three thousand or so mile fair weather brigade that'll buy these.

No harm in that. I suppose they are not hurting anyone.

The previous poster said, "not sure what it will be good for but what does it matter"







Which alas just about sums up the attitude of riders in the 21st century









Biking is now just a leisure activity for fat middle aged posers.

Personally I wish that they would all bog off back to bungee jumping, hang gliding, or whatever else it was they used to do for there weekend thrills before they discovered bikes


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## MIKE (Feb 23, 2003)

Hi,

Not for me, but they will sell shed loads of them Stateside, not having many bends to go round







As said above hope it sells well for Triumph.

It might be short lived, reading in MCN I see the 100 B.H.P limit is raising it's ugly head again with the "bikers need protecting from them selves" lobby







I think it was Triumph who broke the last agreement between manufactures on top speed (might have been H.P) with the original Daytona.

MIKE..


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

MIKE said:


> It might be short lived, reading in MCN I see the 100 B.H.P limit is raising it's ugly head again with the "bikers need protecting from them selves" lobby


 Unfortunately Mike, a lot round my way, do


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## MIKE (Feb 23, 2003)

Same here, at least the onset of winter is thinning them out a bit 

MIKE..


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Yeah riding in Winters great.

All the knobs put there bikes away and tip-toe back into the family Mondeo and leave the rest of us to enjoy the roads in peace.

I love it.

Back to this Triumph.

I actually quite like the styling. I have nowt against cruisers and have found my particular choice to be comfortable and even practicle.

I just question the need for a 2.3 litre engine in a bike that Triumph know full well will be ridden by the sort of rider hard pushed to explore the limits of a CG125.


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## MIKE (Feb 23, 2003)

Its probally a marketing ploy, as you say you don't need a 2.3 motor in a bike. So it will make plenty of headlines for Triumph.

I would not like to explore the limits of a CG125







what with skinny tyres and the stand that all ways seem to hang down inches off the road!

MIKE..


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

I like the look of that bike.

I assume that the throttle is adjustable? All else is in the hands of the rider 

Buy it, and ride it. How you do it is up to you.









Christ, am I getting old?


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## ericp (Feb 23, 2003)

I have a deposit on one







)


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

ericp said:


> I have a deposit on one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 You know what.

That Big Ol' Triumph's growing on me


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Mike

I popped into Smiths today to have a read of that article in MCN you were talking about.

Hmmm.

Definate pinch of salt job.

MCN are renowned for this sort of scaremongering.

Oh of course we all know that motorcycle accidents have risen dramatically over the last few years, due in large part, I reckon, to the sort of riders we were just talking about.

It's probably likely that the Government have set up a think tank to look into ways of reducing accidents, but MCN's claim of the possibility of power restrictions and even speed restrictors fitted to bikes are to say the least a little premature. Where do they get this information ? They make it up.

This is what MCN and indeed tabloids in general do so well. Make up these little stories loosely based on fact, cause a minor panic which conveniently sells more copy.

Of course we should not be complaicent and the need to reduce the disproportionate number of bike related fatalities is of an urgent nature in my opinion.

However the childish and ill informed comments of a weekly rag known as MCN do us all no favours whatsoever.


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## Roger (May 17, 2003)

Yes, not bad,

much more interesting than most of the characterless jap offerings.

Roger (biking since 1963 when The Gold Star was, and still is, one of the best ever)


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## Justin (Oct 6, 2003)

I put down a deposit on one in the local Triumph shop. Got kicked out straight away.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Roger said:


> Yes, not bad,
> 
> much more interesting than most of the characterless jap offerings.
> 
> Roger (biking since 1963 when The Gold Star was, and still is, one of the best ever)


 Roger

Clearly your an authority here.

"Chacracterless Jap Offerings" Hmmm Some examples and reasoning behind that rather sweeping remark, assuming you can back it up.

Not that I'm a huge fan of Jap(anese) bikes myself you understand. BMW 's are my thing but I would not be so foolish as to claim brand superiority, based on relatively ancient technology.

"Gold Star still one of the best ever"

Look, I like the old Brit bikes but PLEASE don't be one of those boring old farts who trys to convince everyone that they don't make them like they used to.

If they were that good where are they now. In fact where is the British bike industry now.

In case you don't remember I'll tell you.

Decimated by the better engineered, MORE RELIABLE, and importantly MORE AFFORDABLE Japanese machinery. Your generation deserted the Brit bike industry in there droves in favour of Japanese bikes which is why they totally dominate the market place today.

Many people, (and weve seen em here) hate the Japanese watch Industry for very much the same reasons, but at the end of the day it's the consumer that makes the choice. No one forced bikers in the 60's to buy Japanese. If you want to blame anyone for the demise of the Brit bike blame the industry fat cats of the time who were caught napping.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Andy,

Don't get wound up old mate. Any bike is better than none, you know that









Memories of past machines are our only joy, sometimes.

My dad's Wolsley 1500 and Morris 1000 trav. My Reliant Regal 700e and MZ 150 Adler (Eagle). And the 250 super 5 with ISDN conversion on the engine.







Very nice frame and handling on that little bugger  Crap Pneumant tyres though, I swapped them for Conti's









Not to mention all the other cars and bikes I've owned or been with.

Love the lot and enjoy the memories









And love what you have now, it might be the last









But, I do hope not 

Stay on the bricks ( and cut out the earholeing).

Stay safe.

Stan.


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## Roger (May 17, 2003)

> Decimated by the better engineered, MORE RELIABLE, and importantly MORE AFFORDABLE Japanese machinery


Point proved, no character, no interesting excursions, no roadside repairs, just the damn same everyday experience, just like the day before and the day before that.....absolutely boring.

As for more affordable,no.....I bought one of the very first Honda CB305,s in this area to have telescopic forks......I also had its predecessor which had trailing link front forks and even that ,in all its hideous livery, was more expesive than an Ariel Arrow, its near competitor also far more expensive than a Ducati 250 Desmodromic which is still superior to the Honda 250 and worth a damn site more today. The spares were also more expensive as was servicing (if you could find anyone who would touch them in those days) and yes spares were needed on a regular basis with silencers lasting approx 60% of the equivalent BSA part.

The only Jap bike I ever owned that had any semblence of Character was a Suzuki Rotary and we all know what a dismal failure that was.

I was never a fan in those days of Italian macninery, but today you have to look to them for interesting machinery.

The only german machine I owned was a shaft drive BMW 250 which was rather boring. (although strangely, I have bought German cars for years).

So Andy, you will perhaps see, that I do speak from long experience and you will also find eventually, that with experience comes the ability to be discerning.

Roger


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

I still like Veb Motorradwerk Zschopau.

MZ war spezielles etwas. Es half fand eine groÃŸe Motorradfahrentradition. Hatten wir dieses vergessen? Wir sollten nicht, es sind in unserem Blut.

Forget not our roots, then progress.

I whish I could still ride a motorcycle, or sit in a chair for more than forty minutes









Just me, sorry.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Nope Roger.

You still spouting crap.

ROADSIDE REPAIRS







Thank god those days have gone.

This character issue which you keep going on about.

I suppose you mean engines that rattle the mirrors out.

The obligitory puddle of oil under the sump. I could go on.

Tell me Roger if Japanese bikes are as boring as you say WHY do they dominate the market.

Are you saying that the majority of riders these days are wrong.

OH and you didn't address the point I made earlier.

Why did the Brit bike industry die


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## Roger (May 17, 2003)

Andy



> I suppose you mean engines that rattle the mirrors out


The worst vibration that I ever experienced BY FAR was with a Honda CBX, Five miles was paralysing to the feet. I consulted the doc and he diagnosed "vibration whit finger", yes I know it was in the feet, but you get the gist.

The oriental domination thesedays is because there is very little other choice, slick advertising to an often less than discerning marketplace, heavy sponsorship in GP/Superbike competition, the undoubted talent of Valentino Rossi et al.

Although Hondas GP domination will, I believe, soon be taken from them by Ducati (now there is a class outfit) and also possible by Mr Rossis possible departure from Honda GP.

Just remember that some of the Japanese industry got their foot on the ladder by producing blatant copies of British machinery, (remember the Kawasaki that was an exact copy of the BSA A65?? No, I doubt you do remember the way things were, when bikers were all-weather types unlike so many today, who rode their machines to trackdays and thrashed them hard, unlike some today who insist on towing them behind their RAV 4s or whatever the current fashion icon happens to be.



> Are you saying that the majority of riders these days are wrong


Wrong???? where did wrong come from?? there is no right or wrong, just a matter of choice. Again I ask you to indicate where I mentioned " Wrong".



> Why did the Brit bike industry die


Well I dont believe it did die, declined yes, dead no.

What about Triumph? what about CCM?? what about people like Lord Hesketh and Carl Foggarty???...........No, the industry may not be in a completely healthy state but dead it certainly is not.

Class will always survive, people will always remember the sight and sound of the Manx Nortons, the AJS 7Rs, The Gold Stars, when the likes of the plastic fireblade et al, are just a smudge the margin of motorcycle history.

Roger


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

No Roger.

WRONG AGAIN

The reason for Japanese dominance in the motorcycle market place is because bikers of your generation, who now wax so lyrical about the good ol' days, deserted the brit bikes in there droves in favour of Japanese machinery.

Thats fact I'm affraid.

Oh you are right, there is a sort of a British bike industry still surviving.

John Bloors Triumph company should be admired, even though they only have the name in common with the original Meridan Marque.

The first Triumphs were based on a Kawasaki. Did you know that. Ironic that a brand so comprehensively oblitereated by the Japanese should now need to copy them in order to make a come back. OK they are now making there "own " bikes but it it took them a lot of copying to get there.

Right who else....erm YES Norton. They sort of rose out of the grave like a tormented zombie in the 80's but were soon re-buried in the excrement of there own fraudulant activities. I believe they still just about survive as a maker of light aircraft engines.

Ah yes and then there's good old Lord Hesketh. Still knocking up those big V-Twins in his shed.

Hardly an "industry" though is it Roger. One mainstream manufacturer making a decent enough product that in the field of sports, by John Bloors own admission, falls well short of Japanese and Italian dominance, followed by a few fringe specials builders.

Oh and please don't give me all that tosh about you old boys being proper hardened bikers.

I ride all year round and do many thousands of miles no matter what the weather. If you do as well on your BSA then my hat comes off to you but your one of the very few that do.

By the way I actually agree with your comments on the majority of leisure bikers today. I have no time for them either so at least we agree on something.


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## Roger (May 17, 2003)

> The first Triumphs were based on a Kawasaki


No. or do you just mean the verical twins? The BSA Slopers based on a Kawasaki!!!!



> deserted the brit bikes in there droves in favour of Japanese machinery


No not strictly true, many bought Japanese because the UK product was not available. If you cast your mind back to the economic climate of those time, It was "export or die", there were large incentives to send the product abroad, so most of BSA/Triumph went stateside as did to a lesser extent AMC (AJS/Matchless)

So it was "force majeur" we had to buy what was avaiable, and for many, it was oriental (if you disregards Vespa/Lambretta) .

I can heartily recoomend a 500 Enfield ( Indian ) Bullet, a lot of fun for a small outlay.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Roger said:


> No. or do you just mean the verical twins? The BSA Slopers based on a Kawasaki!!!!


 No. I'm reffering to the modern Hinckley Triumphs.

Bloor used the old GPZ900 Kawasaki as the inspiration for his early spine framed bikes.

Eric has just bought a nice example.

I do not believe there is any excuse other than greed and indifference for the demise of the Brit bike industry.

Harley Davidson and BMW survived for Gawds sake.

We were more or less the pioneers of the motor bicycle.

We should be riding Vellocette Fireblades and BSA R1's. The reason we are not is because while our industry certainly had the technical and manufacturing expertise, they had the business ethics of a Bancock whorehouse. No excuses. They allowed the industry to be decimated because a) they were arrogant enough to believe that they were unbeatable and







they were too busy playing golf anyway.


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## Roger (May 17, 2003)

> BMW survived for Gawds sake


I believe (but am not totally sure) that they received large amounts of money from the Allies after WW2 which probably made the difference.

About 5 years back there was published a hard-back book, which I was lent, about the management of Triumph from 1960 onwards. The title escapes me now, but there was far more behind the problems than either greed or arrogance....damn wish I could remember the title..It was damn fine read anyway.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

The thing is I really like vintage vehicles









Your dealing with someone here who up till recently was successfully running a Messerschmitt Kabin Cruiser KR200 Three Wheeler


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## Roger (May 17, 2003)

> Messerschmitt Kabin Cruiser KR200


Really? thats interesting, I always quite liked those tho I never owned one. I did have an Isetta which my neighbour set on fire! ( not on purpose, he was driving down his very steep drive quickly, when he reached the bottom of the slope, the drivers seat collapsed and the metalwork went accross the battery, which was under the seat, it all caught fire and ruined the interior (and the ass of his trousers).


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

I suppose the Messerschmitt, and indeed many three wheelers then, were quite ahead of there time. I mean the "fully enclosed motorcycle" concept is quite science fiction.

The KR's 200cc single cylinder two stroke engine was a tough old lump.

On the motorway mine would hold 60mph, two up and loaded with luggage although the slightest hint of an incline would have you playing tunes on the gearbox.

In reality though it was a bit dangerous.

I never could get the brakes balanced properly.

Fine in everyday situations but a forceful dab would have you pulling one way or. the other.

Also my shoulders would be just about touching the inside panels and I'm not a big bloke.

Still.

Had a few years of fun with it and sold it for a little more than it cost me so can't complain.


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## JayGee (Feb 26, 2003)

Andy said:


> Roger said:
> 
> 
> > No. or do you just mean the verical twins? The BSA Slopers based on a Kawasaki!!!!
> ...


Now that's an old chestnut that I thought had been comprehensively put to bed by now...

What Bloor got from Kawasaki was some consultancy on tooling, assembly line layout, and production workflows. The only bit of the actual bike which owed anything to Kawasaki was the neat eccentric chain adjusters, the motors were actually engineered by Ricardo Consultants (in Shoreham if I remember rightly) and actually owed more to contemporary car practice with features like wet liners in the cylinder block.

I think one of the things that helped this persistent "urban myth" get started was that early development "mules" did use GPZ900R running gear (like the Triumph units the GPZ900 power plant is tall by modern standards, making it one of the few chassis that could be possibly made to take a first generation Triumph motor) and several "scoop" photos of these development hacks made it into the press.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Jay Gee

Triumph copied Kawasaki's frame design. Thats not an urban myth. Thats from Triumph themselves.


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