# Information Needed On This French Made Services.



## mach 0.0013137

I won this Services `Ontime` a few months ago off ebay, the seller claimed it was made by `Kered` although I can find no information on the movement to indicate it`s origins or even it`s jewel count. Can anyone confirm if it was made by Kered, give me information about the company, identify the movement including model number & jewel count plus give a possible year of manufacture ( the logo style dates it roughly to the mid to late 1950s)



















It`s obviously not in the best of condition, definitely needs at least a service plus most likely some repair work but it`s only the second French made Services I`ve come across since taking an interest in the marque so I just had to have it, I really hope Steve Burrage can work his magic on this one :sweatdrop:


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## William_Wilson

I'm not helping... but "Kered" is Derek spelled backwards. :wink2:

Quick Googling suggests most Kered watches had nondescript Swiss movements and U.K. made cases.

Later,

William


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## john87300

I think you'll find it's a Cupillard 233, 15 jewel http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Cupillard_233

This was a common step up from pin pallet movements in French watches of the 50's. "Made in France" shows that it was made for export, otherwise for the French market it would show no origin. I've managed to amass a little information on around 300 French "brands" and Kered hasn't shown up so far. Mind you I'm still trying to track down information on some of the brands in my collection, so there's many more out there somewhere. Here in France in the 50's there were a large number of small businesses engaged in watch assembly for third parties, and quite possibly "Kered" is something to do with that trade. There's a Kered on fleabay at the moment, with what I suspect is a jewelled pin pallet, it seems to be marked "Foreign", so it's not French but maybe German. If I come across any more about Kered I'll let you know.

Serviced up the Cupillard will outlast many movements considered to be more "up market", so It will be a great addition to your collection.


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## mach 0.0013137

Thanks for that detailed information, very interesting :thumbsup:

I`ve just done a google for Cupillard & come up with Cupillard rieme is this the same firm?

Can you give me any more details about them, eg where the firm was based?

As to the sellers description of the Ontime`s maker; it`s quite possible that they didn`t actually know who made the watch & just guessed it was Kered, it won`t be the first time I`ve seen Services watches wrongly listed


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## john87300

Fabrique d 'Ã©bauches Cupillard S.A was founded in the late 1800â€™s by Virgile Cupillard (b 1852), on his death he was later succeeded by his son Maxime. Based at Villers-le-Lac in the Doubs near both Morteau and BesanÃ§on. Cupillard was one of the founders of France Ebauches in 1965, along with TE, Jeambrun, & Femga. Later they were joined by Sefea, Lorsa and Parrenin.

Cupillard were one of the major producers of movements in the 50â€™s, and their movements have probably featured in many hundreds of French brands. Concerns like LIP, Mortima, Ultra and Judex for example produced their own movements but a great many brands would use Cupillard for their more basic movements, and maybe Jeambrun or Femga for the next grade up. The Cupillard 233 was well respected and lived on as the FE 233 in different variants well into the 1970â€™s.

Cupillard Rieme seem to have been a fairly short lived venture and in 1978 CVR (Cupillard Vuez Rieme) collaborated with others to form Framelec (France montre Ã©lectrique) in a vain attempt to stave off the Far East quartz revolution.  France Ebauches finally shut its doors in 1995. The name since has gone to Japan and then to China, and is now TechnoTime with a couple of factories in France again.


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## mach 0.0013137

Thank you for that, I wonder if Services also sourced the case, dial & hands etc from France.


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## john87300

I would guess that the watch more than likely was "born" somewhere in BescaÃ§on or the surrounding area, and that being so it's likely that all the parts were locally produced. In those days it seemed to be common for one village to specialise in hands, another in faces, another in rubis, etc etc. So, in the little town of Charmauvillers for example I know of three "fabricants", but only one of those produced branded watches, which were more than likely assembled from a few parts produced by themselves and the rest from a variety of other "fabricants". Other than the few big makers it really seems to have been little more than a cottage industry. Are there any makers marks or clues on the case or back?


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## dombox40

john87300 said:


> Fabrique d 'Ã©bauches Cupillard S.A was founded in the late 1800â€™s by Virgile Cupillard (b 1852), on his death he was later succeeded by his son Maxime. Based at Villers-le-Lac in the Doubs near both Morteau and BesanÃ§on. Cupillard was one of the founders of France Ebauches in 1965, along with TE, Jeambrun, & Femga. Later they were joined by Sefea, Lorsa and Parrenin.
> 
> Cupillard were one of the major producers of movements in the 50â€™s, and their movements have probably featured in many hundreds of French brands. Concerns like LIP, Mortima, Ultra and Judex for example produced their own movements but a great many brands would use Cupillard for their more basic movements, and maybe Jeambrun or Femga for the next grade up. The Cupillard 233 was well respected and lived on as the FE 233 in different variants well into the 1970â€™s.
> 
> Cupillard Rieme seem to have been a fairly short lived venture and in 1978 CVR (Cupillard Vuez Rieme) collaborated with others to form Framelec (France montre Ã©lectrique) in a vain attempt to stave off the Far East quartz revolution. France Ebauches finally shut its doors in 1995. The name since has gone to Japan and then to China, and is now TechnoTime with a couple of factories in France again.


Some interesting history of French watching making there John, I,ve had a few Mortimas in my time made at Morteau mostly Datomatics I believe when the factory closed some employees went across the border into Switzerland to work which is fairly close I think. Is there not a watch and clock museum in Morteau today, couple of old pics below of some of mine now sold. Sorry Mach not trying to high jack your thread but this is an interesting topic


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## john87300

dombox40 said:


> john87300 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fabrique d 'Ã©bauches Cupillard S.A was founded in the late 1800â€™s by Virgile Cupillard (b 1852), on his death he was later succeeded by his son Maxime. Based at Villers-le-Lac in the Doubs near both Morteau and BesanÃ§on. Cupillard was one of the founders of France Ebauches in 1965, along with TE, Jeambrun, & Femga. Later they were joined by Sefea, Lorsa and Parrenin.
> 
> Cupillard were one of the major producers of movements in the 50â€™s, and their movements have probably featured in many hundreds of French brands. Concerns like LIP, Mortima, Ultra and Judex for example produced their own movements but a great many brands would use Cupillard for their more basic movements, and maybe Jeambrun or Femga for the next grade up. The Cupillard 233 was well respected and lived on as the FE 233 in different variants well into the 1970â€™s.
> 
> Cupillard Rieme seem to have been a fairly short lived venture and in 1978 CVR (Cupillard Vuez Rieme) collaborated with others to form Framelec (France montre Ã©lectrique) in a vain attempt to stave off the Far East quartz revolution. France Ebauches finally shut its doors in 1995. The name since has gone to Japan and then to China, and is now TechnoTime with a couple of factories in France again.
> 
> 
> 
> Some interesting history of French watching making there John, I,ve had a few Mortimas in my time made at Morteau mostly Datomatics I believe when the factory closed some employees went across the border into Switzerland to work which is fairly close I think. Is there not a watch and clock museum in Morteau today, couple of old pics below of some of mine now sold. Sorry Mach not trying to high jack your thread but this is an interesting topic
Click to expand...

Yes there's a watch museum in Morteau http://musee-horlogerie.com/

Mortima was founded by Emile Cattin in 1926 in Morteau, and even up until the early 1950's produced "working mens" watches, all still based around the the old C66 pin pallet movement, in various forms and incarnations, like this early 1950's one of mine.










You'll find lots of later very fancy Mortima's were made in the 60's and 70's, usually with Swiss movements. In the 60's there was a really radical one for its time with two extra dials, one a thermometer and the other a compass! It is still normal for people from Morteau to work over the border in the Swiss watch industry, mainly for Swatch I believe.


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## mach 0.0013137

john87300 said:


> I would guess that the watch more than likely was "born" somewhere in BescaÃ§on or the surrounding area, and that being so it's likely that all the parts were locally produced. In those days it seemed to be common for one village to specialise in hands, another in faces, another in rubis, etc etc. So, in the little town of Charmauvillers for example I know of three "fabricants", but only one of those produced branded watches, which were more than likely assembled from a few parts produced by themselves and the rest from a variety of other "fabricants". Other than the few big makers it really seems to have been little more than a cottage industry. Are there any makers marks or clues on the case or back?


Facinating stuff :yes:

There`s nothing on the inside the case & nothing much on the outside although it`s one of the very few Services I`ve come across with a screw back...












dombox40 said:


> Sorry Mach not trying to high jack your thread but this is an interesting topic


No problem, as you say it is an interesting topic, we hear so little about the French watch industry :wink2:


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## john87300

Nothing much on the case back, although the font style and engraving is very neat.

One possibly interesting fact, William pointed out that Kered was Derek spelt backwards. There was an importer in London in the mid to late 50's called Louis Braham, whose imported brands were Derek and Kered. From the obituaries listings of the British Horological Institute:

May 1963

169

Mr Louis Braham

Founder & director of Louis Braham Ltd


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## oldkingcole

john87300 said:


> Nothing much on the case back, although the font style and engraving is very neat.
> 
> One possibly interesting fact, William pointed out that Kered was Derek spelt backwards. There was an importer in London in the mid to late 50's called Louis Braham, whose imported brands were Derek and Kered. From the obituaries listings of the British Horological Institute:
> 
> May 1963
> 
> 169
> 
> Mr Louis Braham
> 
> Founder & director of Louis Braham Ltd


Louis Braham was related, by marriage I believe, to the Newmark family, watch manufacturers based in Croydon, England and making that brand and others. Louis had his business in Croydon too, but established himself later as Louis Braham Ltd in Hatton Garden, London EC1 and advertising describes them as 'the Watch House for Avia' ,sole agents for Derrick, Kered (15-jewel levers), Newmark, Elbee, Hourmaster and Horsham.

Louis's brother, who was involved in the business was Derrick ... and Kered is also an allusion to his name (Kcirred really didn't work!). Elbee was Louis himself getting into the act

In my own collection I have Kered and Elbee watches and others branded Derrick and Derrick 'B'. Of the latter, most I have seen on the Bay have the 'B', for Braham I guess. Are the plain Derrick watches earlier or later I wonder.

I have a JPEG copy of the Louis Braham Ltd advertisement. This is my very first post on this forum and I am just finding my way around. Must I copy this JPEG to a photo facility to get a link ... or is there a way of uploading it directly to this forum?

I am also wondering whether John in France would be interested in confirmations of French connections on my watches?

Derek (Kered backwards !  )

le rosbif


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## john87300

oldkingcole said:


> I am also wondering whether John in France would be interested in confirmations of French connections on my watches?
> 
> Derek (Kered backwards !  )
> 
> le rosbif


Yes Derek, I certainly would be!


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## oldkingcole

I am having a tidy up right now John. When I have done, I will report on the French watches. May be a week or so.


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## Rotundus

"french made services"


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## oldkingcole

Rotundus said:


> "french made services"


French maid services sounds better.


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## oldkingcole

john87300 said:


> oldkingcole said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am also wondering whether John in France would be interested in confirmations of French connections on my watches?
> 
> Derek (Kered backwards !  )
> 
> le rosbif
> 
> 
> 
> Yes Derek, I certainly would be!
Click to expand...

Because I am newly arrived at close-up photography I chose a rather undemanding subject to start with. This is on target for this thread I believe despite being marked SWISS MADE and having a Swiss movement. It has the Louis Braham connection, one of his brands, and it has a French bracelet marked MADE IN FRANCE, so clearly meant for export. Is it the original I wonder? Could this watch date from 1940 or soon after? This was the centenary of Brummel's death.

Anyway I am attached to the watch. I wear it quite often. A few of the V-shaped springs which control the expansion/contraction of the bracelet are missing. I would love to acquire another strap, some springs or a few links so that I can restore it to its fully working condition. I suppose I could knock something up to do the job?

I also had to do battle with uploading the photos. All this is quite enough for this old chap for one day.





































Sorry the colour is not correct, but I promise to try harder :wallbash:

Hope to find some real French watches from the Louis Braham stable next week.

Derek


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## Bones

I too am trying to find any history of this company or the company that used this name.

I have an interesting KERED which has a 'formed' case made of aluminium, which I bought, thinking it was a cheap pin lever watch. To my surprise, it had a very attractive 15 jewel French movement.

I have two or three other French jewelled lever movements, (two are branded SOLO), all of which run well and keep excellent time. They look equal to any typical Swiss jewelled lever movement of the time - circa 1940s to 1950s. Non have shock protection so perhaps more in line with 1940s.

I have therefore assumed that they were from the area of France 'just over the border' from the Swiss watch making region. I wondered if the aluminium cased model was perhaps made after WW2, when scrap aluminium was plentiful and was thus used to make cases?

I have no knowledge of any connection between KERED and Services. In fact I have always understood that Services was a brand used by Smiths/Ingersoll. All the KEREDs I have come across have been 'Made in France' and Services have all been England or GB.

The hunt goes on for the history of KERED....


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## mach 0.0013137

Bones said:


> In fact I have always understood that Services was a brand used by Smiths/Ingersoll. All the KEREDs I have come across have been 'Made in France' and Services have all been England or GB.


Here you go...



mach 0.0013137 said:


> The Services Watch Co., Ltd was founded in Leicester by a Frank Liquorish sometime in 1926/27, it was dissolved on 26/11/2002 although I gather from my watch repairer Steve Burrage (who used to work for the company) that Services watches stopped being produced in the late 1970s.The company never actually made watches themselves instead they either had them made by other firms or bought parts in which were then assembled in the Services factory.
> 
> The earliest Services watch I`ve so far come across was made in 1927 using a 15 jewel movement made by the Fleurier Watch co., Switzerland it was fitted in an Edinburgh hallmarked silver case. However during the early years & up to WWII one of their main suppliers appears to have been Thiel Brothers of Thuringia who made complete watches (pocket & wrist) for them. At first these appear to have been marked on the dial as `German Made` changing over to `Foreign` or `Foreign Made` apparently by the end of the 1920s. So far the German Services watches of this period I have come across seem to have simple but sturdy unjeweled pin-pallet movements. In addition to Thiel Brothers sometime in the early/mid 1930s Services appear to have begun sourcing watches from The Oris Watch Company Switzerland this arrangement continued into the 1950s, there were other suppliers (see list below). Some watches were marked as being `Swiss Made`others were, like those from Thiel, marked `Foreign`. Despite the company name I have so far not come across any indication that Services watches were actually issued to any members of the armed forces although some `Transport` models were used by the Air Raid Precaution wardens during WWII.
> 
> Initially after the end of WWII the company continued to source from Switzerland ( mainly the Oris Watch Company), these continued to be marked as `Foreign` possibly due to restrictions on importing `luxury` goods. During the early 1950s Services switched to UK based suppliers such as Louis Newmark Ltd., Perfect Works,Stafford Road, Croydon, Surrey (marked Made in England`) & later by the Anglo-Celtic Watch Co.Ltd., Gurnos Works, Ystradgynlais, Wales when they are usually marked as being `Made In Gt Britain` (or similar).While most Services watches from this period used un-jewelled movements a few there were a few 5 Jeweled models. From around the early/mid 1950s Services begain again sourcing from abroad, their range including a chronograph using a 17 Jewel Venus movement (there had been at least two other Swiss made chronographs made in the 1930s). From the 1950s until Services ceased production they produced watches sourced or using parts from Switzerland, Britain, France, East & West Germany, Russia & Hong Kong.





mach 0.0013137 said:


> Just been checking my notes & here`s some additional information....
> 
> Model names
> 
> Albany
> 
> Airman
> 
> Air Wrist
> 
> Aerist
> 
> Army (pocket watch)
> 
> Caller
> 
> Cambridge
> 
> Chrome
> 
> Competitor
> 
> Colonial (wrist & pocket watch)
> 
> Continental
> 
> Challenge
> 
> Charnwood
> 
> Court
> 
> Croydon
> 
> County (pocket Watch)
> 
> Coventry
> 
> Daventry
> 
> Despatch Rider
> 
> Diplomat
> 
> Divisor
> 
> Diane
> 
> Droitwwich
> 
> Eton
> 
> Exel (alarm clock & pocket watch)
> 
> Esquire
> 
> Gatwick
> 
> Golf
> 
> Goodwood
> 
> Hatfield
> 
> Harrow
> 
> Heston
> 
> Henley
> 
> Hendon
> 
> Hollywood
> 
> Hockey
> 
> Indian
> 
> Indian Army
> 
> Jubilee (1935 George V)
> 
> Keston
> 
> Ladies Sports
> 
> Malvern
> 
> Marine
> 
> Naval
> 
> Navigator
> 
> Neptune
> 
> Ontime
> 
> Oxford
> 
> Radley
> 
> Reading
> 
> Recall (alarm clock)
> 
> Regatta
> 
> Repton
> 
> Rossall
> 
> Scout (pocket watch)
> 
> Senior (pocket watch)
> 
> Severn (pocket watch)
> 
> Sherwood
> 
> Sports
> 
> Tennis
> 
> Thames
> 
> Tourist
> 
> Transport
> 
> Winner
> 
> Windsor
> 
> Winchester
> 
> Wimbledon
> 
> Yale
> 
> *Movements used *
> 
> Cupillard
> 
> Felsa 4007N 25 jewels
> 
> A. Schild cal.1187 15 jewels, circa mid 1950s.
> 
> BIFORA
> 
> ETA
> 
> Emes
> 
> Fleurier
> 
> Ronda
> 
> EB Bettlach cal.8020 & 8800
> 
> Wotania ltd
> 
> Oris
> 
> Venus
> 
> Thiel Bros (pre war)
> 
> UMF/UMK (post war)
> 
> Kienzle
> 
> Moljina
> 
> Newmark
> 
> Smiths/Ingersol
> 
> Standard
> 
> Remix (Hong Kong)
> 
> Glashutte Spezmatic (VEB GlashÃ¼tte Uhrenbetrieb)


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## Bones

That's a really interesting history of Services brand and makes perfect sense based on the Service watches I've seen.


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