# Help Idâ€™Ing A Pw - Barnett & Scott, Hullâ€¦ No Idea! !



## Mechanical Alarm (Oct 18, 2010)

Just got back from vacation and patiently waiting for this to come in the mail.

I have researched this and researched this and cannot come up with anything other than Barnett & Scott - Hull existed in the ~1880â€™s and that they specialized in chronographs. This is all I know. If anyone can shed more light on this - what appears to be, a high quality watchmaker..., please do! I think I'm really going to love it with it's fitted case, chain, etc.

Now for the stupid "Yank" question - Can someone also explain to me exactly what, â€œBy Royal Appointmentâ€ means? Can just anyone put this on their make or does it really have to be â€œRoyally approvedâ€, or whatever? Is that from the butler, gardener, bed pan emptier or someone of high official?? Sorry to be such a Yank, but have always wondered this!

Any help with a value would really be appreciated (I know, a rookie mistake), I have checked eBay, everywhere. Silver content has to be a bunch alone.

Sorry, these are the previous owner's blurry photos:


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## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

It looks like a turn-of-the-century watch of the kind that was called a 'doctor's watch'. At least I think so. The extra-large seconds hand was easier to read than the smaller sub-seconds hand (that this watch doesn't have), so a doctor could read the watch and use the seconds hand as a timing-device while he checked a patient's pulse with the other hand.

'By Royal Appointment' would suggest that this company was a holder of a Royal Warrant. This would mean that this company enjoyed the patronage of the British Royal Family.

Royal warrants are still issued today.


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## a6cjn (Oct 29, 2009)

I do find pocket watches fascinating, particularly trying to find out the history of a particular piece and your example has caught my interest

First of all my google fu must be weak this morning 'cos I can't track down any in fo' on Barnett & Scott.

The fitted case does have a nice label though and it says 'By Secial Appointment' and not 'Royal Appointment' which suggests to me that the patronage is from the Admiralty rather than a Royal Warrant and I would also suggest that the piece is a chronograph rather than the more simpler 'doctor's watch', intended for use by an officer in the Royal Navy. I find identifying details from pics alone a challenge but the marks suggest to me that it was assayed in London in 1884, however, it should have a Queen's head duty mark stamped on there which was used up to 1890

I read the date stamp as an upper case 'I' and it's in the correct shape shield for 1884 but no duty stamp which makes me wonder if Naval pieces were exempt from duty

I believe the watch case has had some heavy restoration, Hallmarks on a dust cover are normally very crisp but these are far to heavily rubbed from normal daily use which suggests heavy buffing from a polishing mop.

The movement looks very clean but although I have enlarged the pics, the blued screws look pristine which means they are either new or haven't been touched.

The dial looks perfect and the hands seem original and I think it is a superb example and having the original case is a real bonus. Might be worth checking to see if the date on the chain is contemporary with the watch

A lot of conjecture on my part I know but I hope it helps

Chris


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## Mechanical Alarm (Oct 18, 2010)

Shangas said:


> It looks like a turn-of-the-century watch of the kind that was called a 'doctor's watch'. At least I think so. The extra-large seconds hand was easier to read than the smaller sub-seconds hand (that this watch doesn't have), so a doctor could read the watch and use the seconds hand as a timing-device while he checked a patient's pulse with the other hand.
> 
> 'By Royal Appointment' would suggest that this company was a holder of a Royal Warrant. This would mean that this company enjoyed the patronage of the British Royal Family.
> 
> Royal warrants are still issued today.


Shangas - thanx for your help but I have my doubts about it being a Dr's. watch as these usually have the "Pulsations" register clearly marked.



a6cjn said:


> I do find pocket watches fascinating, particularly trying to find out the history of a particular piece and your example has caught my interest
> 
> First of all my google fu must be weak this morning 'cos I can't track down any in fo' on Barnett & Scott.
> 
> ...


Like I said, I have tried to research this and have come up nearly blank, only finding the date of mfg. and that they specialized in chronographs, which are some of my favorites. Chris, You seem quite knowledgeable on this and PW's in particular, I should have it in my hot little hands shortly, where I can try to identify the chain and hopefully the case marks more legibly. I am also quite interested in the pin set buttons and how they work. The 24 hour register is very unique, I believe. I bow to your knowledge and reference material. I just hope they didn't polish the snot outta it as you suggested. The watch for its age looks remarkable, I am nearly 100% sure everything is in place


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## a6cjn (Oct 29, 2009)

" I just hope they didn't polish the snot outta it "

      

Ain't heard that in years, made me chuckle

Look forward to an update

Chris


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## a6cjn (Oct 29, 2009)

Well I've spent a bit more time on t'internet trying to find some more info' but have drawn a blank

However I have come across this site which can provide information/research on a particular watch or clockmaker.

Barnett and Scott is on their list but a fee is involved for their research, interesting site though

Chris


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## JWL940 (Jun 11, 2010)

> Now for the stupid "Yank" question - Can someone also explain to me exactly what, â€œBy Royal Appointmentâ€ means? Can just anyone put this on their make or does it really have to be â€œRoyally approvedâ€, or whatever? Is that from the butler, gardener, bed pan emptier or someone of high official?? Sorry to be such a Yank, but have always wondered this!


This might explain a little more about what a 'Royal Appointment' means in the context of your watch. And here is a list of those who hold such appointments. To be granted a Royal Appointment is a very big deal for the individual concerned.


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## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

It could well be a fusee movement judging by the two steel arbors protruding through the backplate, especially as the "reversing pinion" had not been invented then.

Obviously a high grade ebauche, a really lovely watch, wish i owned it


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## Mechanical Alarm (Oct 18, 2010)

Thanx for all of your input.

Chris has PM'd me a couple of times and has come up with some terrific information on the maker. Chris - you are well connected Sir :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: ! ! !


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## MilesB (Aug 19, 2011)

a6cjn said:


> I have come across this site which can provide information/research on a particular watch or clockmaker.
> 
> Barnett and Scott is on their list but a fee is involved for their research, interesting site though


Indeed, seems to be a lot on there and at 6 quid could be worth it although no guarantees. I had a look for G Sordet but not on there.

Lovely watch, good luck!


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

JWL940 said:


> > Now for the stupid "Yank" question - Can someone also explain to me exactly what, â€œBy Royal Appointmentâ€ means? Can just anyone put this on their make or does it really have to be â€œRoyally approvedâ€, or whatever? Is that from the butler, gardener, bed pan emptier or someone of high official?? Sorry to be such a Yank, but have always wondered this!
> 
> 
> This might explain a little more about what a 'Royal Appointment' means in the context of your watch. And here is a list of those who hold such appointments. To be granted a Royal Appointment is a very big deal for the individual concerned.


When I very first started work, nearly 55 years ago,  I worked for a Glasgow company that had a Royal Warrant - for the supply of Radio, TV and Sheet Music to Balmoral Estate and also Holyroodhouse in Edinburgh. You had to have supplied for at least five years and be of good (character/financial standing) constitution. The Warrant is the only thing that allows you to use the wording "By Royal Appointment to <xxxxxx> Suppliers of Whatever " the xxxxx being which member of the Royal family issues the warrant, and "Suppliers of Whatever" describes the supply or service.

You don't have to be a multi-national business, the local 2 man butcher shop near Balmoral has one for his Pies, Sausages and Meat. It's only awarded to "Tradespeople", and not to anything airy-fairy. There's nothing special, you just get an order to deliver like to any customer, the only difference is it's all done by Invoice. Of course, when we did get an order, it was a case of WHOOSH! get the Queen's Stuff on the wagon and go = and the Boss always insisted the guys made sure the motor was washed before they did the delivery, they were sent with a container of water and did it a couple of miles from the destination :yes:

Like someone said - The Queen thinks toilets smell like new paint :yes: - everywhere she goes there's a paint squad two days ahead painting the loo just in case it's needed msl:

The Sequined Avenger :tease:

(nearer!)


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## Mechanical Alarm (Oct 18, 2010)

It finally arrived and have to say it is most impressive! Keeping as accurate time as my good modern mechanicals! Will have to compare it to the RC clock.

When time allows, I will do a follow-up with my own terrible pix.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

I can't anything more to what has already been said, except that it is a fabulous looking piece, Mike, especially with the original box and Albert. Well done! :thumbsup:


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## Mechanical Alarm (Oct 18, 2010)

I'm back after a short absence.

As I mentioned, I am really liking this watch and it seems to be gaining only about 10 seconds/day. Not bad for the late 1800's! I have taken a few more shots of it to share. The slider at 2:00 is a real stop watch function, as once it is slid, it totally locks the mechanism and stops it from running.

Still have not been able to glean a lot information out there about the maker. Chris has been really helpful - anyone can attest to that!

Anyways... without further ado...























































What is the extra bit of chain at the end? Fob or trinket to hang down? Like some I have seen posted with a pen, compass, etc.?

Comments welcome! Thanx,

Robert (not Mike)


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## Mechanical Alarm (Oct 18, 2010)

2 more:



















Everything is in remarkable condition... I can't believe it. Not a scratch or mark on the dial and the printing inside the case looks like it was done yesterday!


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## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

Hi M.A.

The extra bit of chain dangling off the T-bar is called a FOB DROP. You could clip a little trinket onto the end of it for decoration, like sealing-stamps (what I have on my chain), coins (particularly popular), pencils, lockets, sovereign-cases etc.


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## a6cjn (Oct 29, 2009)

That really is a superb piece

I like the watch, the chain and the case (and the pics ain't bad either)

And yes, the 'dog catch' on the end of the short chain is begging for a fob

It would be nice to search for a fob with the same date letter as the watch or chain

Chris


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Mechanical Alarm said:


> What is the extra bit of chain at the end? Fob or trinket to hang down? Like some I have seen posted with a pen, compass, etc.?
> 
> Comments welcome! Thanx,
> 
> Robert (not Mike)


Spot on, Robert! You would have put a fob of some description on the short link of chain...something similar to these...




























I like to swap my fobs around and have fitted a gold bolt ring to the fob link on my chain to make this easier to do. Another commonly worn fob item was a miniature gold propelling pencil, an item I am currently on the look out for...plenty on eBay, but a bit pricey at the moment!


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## a6cjn (Oct 29, 2009)

Roger the Dodger said:


> Another commonly worn fob item was a miniature gold propelling pencil, an item I am currently on the look out for...plenty on eBay, but a bit pricey at the moment!


Nice collection and pics there Rog

I would keep an eye on item 320765261199 - Sampson Mordan

Give it a wipe with an oily rag and it'll come up like new









Chris


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

I quite fancy one with an amethyst in the end, Chris, as it's my birth stone...I've got it set up as a 'saved search' on the bay, so they email me when a new one comes up...there's been a couple, but they always go for more than I'm prepared to pay! :thumbsdown: Still...I'm in no hurry...


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## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

This is the fob on the end of my watch-chain:










It's a gold sealing-stamp.


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