# Reply To: Bit Of A Tricky Situation



## ALFA-Watch (Jan 11, 2007)

Only yesterday I have known by a "Friend" that a buyer opened two forum against me!!! The buyer in question is Alas.

two months ago i sold a Caribbean Lady to Alas the watch was NOS like the other Caribbean posted jointly.

I sold a Caribbean to Alas and the other 3 Caribbean to a friend registered in the forum that you know very well (I hope that he spends two words on my honesty).

I am a Little Collector, so i sell for buy other watches. I sold 150/200 o more watches in every side of the world, i sold 20/30 watches to ... and never a lament, i sold a caribban to JonW no problem, also i am a 100% positive feedback on eBay, i post watches on the italian litterary (rewiew) called "OM",

I find extremely treacherous what it has been written on my account and unfortunately that nobody is taken part in my aid

I hope you understood my bad english, i would like speack to italian.


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## Toshi (Aug 31, 2007)

Allesandro, thanks for replying. I think it's important that you have an opportunity to have your say, and I for one am interested in what you have to say. I appreciate the fact that English is not your first language, so again, thank you for replying.

Just so you undertand, the problem IMO is not that you sold a watch that was found to be faulty. This happens sometimes (problems are not evident until after the transaction), and no-one is suggesting you knew about the faults when you sold the watch. The issue, and the thing that surprised me, is that when Alasdair told you of the condition of the watch, you didn't act to help him.

I hope you understand where I am coming from with this. I believe the difference between this forums sales corner and eBay is that we are buying and selling umungst friends here.


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

I'll second that...well said....would be great to have an amicable outcome here.......


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Allesandro, I'd also like to personally thank you for replying. It is much appreciated and I'm hoping that this will now help clear the air. I think many of us, certainly me, forget that English is not everyone's first language.

On a related note, I am surprised that you only learned of these posting yesterday; I know you do not visit this Forum very often, so I'm not blaming you. Moderators, do we need to improve our process here? I would have expected a PM to Allesandro alerting him about these posted topics and therefore giving him the opportunity to respond asap.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2008)

Hi Allesandro

It is nothing to do with how many watches you have sold, the vast majority of all transactions work smoothly - it is your response to the customer (Alas) when something went wrong that you are being judged upon.

We have heard Alas' side of the story, and from what we have heard, a reasonable seller would have offered a full refund (possibly minus the postage costs).

It is your reasons for not offering a refund that we would all like to hear. Until we have a response from you, our only conclusion would be to learn from the experience of others.

To describe a watch as NOS just because it is in very good condition is also wrong. To me, NOS means that it has not been worn or used at all, a watch that is in very good condition is a completely different beast and would normally be worth less money.

Hopefully you will learn from this experience, as a seller you cannot completely absolve yourself from responsibility, and that your description should be as accurate as possible. Only describe something as NOS when you know for a fact that it is NOS.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Silver Hawk said:


> Moderators, do we need to improve our process here? I would have expected a PM to Allesandro alerting him about these posted topics and therefore giving him the opportunity to respond asap.


It's not the moderators job to sort out disputes between sellers and buyers, do you lot really need babysitting?

As far as I know the buyer gave the seller ample opportunity to respond. The 1st post regarding this was made without the seller being named. I do not know what contact has taken place since then.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

pg tips said:


> It's not the moderators job to sort out disputes between sellers and buyers, do you lot really need babysitting?
> 
> As far as I know the buyer gave the seller ample opportunity to respond. The 1st post regarding this was made without the seller being named. I do not know what contact has taken place since then.


PG, I'm not suggesting it is your job to sort out disputes between buyers and sellers. But if Allesandro only became aware of the 2 posted topics yesterday, then here is another example of a breakdown in communications...which may or may not be due to language differences.

But if if I was a Mod, and I'm glad I'm not, I would have sent a PM out of common politeness.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Paul I understand what your saying but I totally disagree, Mods should stay out of such disputes imho. If a disgruntled buyer doesn't get a satisfactory response from a seller and feels he should warn other forum users of possible problems that's up to him. If that buyer wants to warn the seller he's going to take such action then that is also his prerogative but he isn't obliged to.

The 1st thread that didn't name names was there for a few days (posted Sep 5 2008, 08:54 PM), if the seller is a good forum member he would have seen it.

If a seller uses this place to sell (FREE OF ANY CHARGES REMEMBER) and he is notified of problems by a buyer then surely it's common sense to resolve such issues before they get to the forum.

We have discussed having a heros and villains type forum before but to be honest we haven't had any really bad experiences before.

The big question that needs answering is why, if Alesandro was told of the watches faults, did he not offer a refund?


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

pg tips said:


> Paul I understand what your saying but I totally disagree, Mods should stay out of such disputes imho.
> 
> The 1st thread that didn't name names was there for a few days, if the seller is a good forum member he would have seen it.


PG, we probably do agree...sort of :lol: . You're absolutely correct, Mods should stay out of disputes....but as soon as a dispute spills out into the General Watch Forum, then Mods should become involved...not to resolve it, but just to make the seller aware, because I don't think you can assume "_if the seller is a good forum member he would have seen it_".



pg tips said:


> The big question that needs answering is why, if Alesandro was told of the watches faults, did he not offer a refund?


Absolutely!

I'll get my coat :sadwalk:.


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## ALFA-Watch (Jan 11, 2007)

Yes, i know this forum is not eBay, buying and selling umungst friends, ok, i am sure when i sold the watch it working, after i ship it no working. The watch have a monobloque case and is water resitant 1000m so i think it is very hard, the watch appair in NOS condition also the other 3 watches its companions ( I have acquired them all together) sold to DaveE haven't problem.

Now is it possible the watch is broke about the shippment? The buyer pay for a shippment without the insurance, i shipped it by registered mail.

This is the email by Alas:

Hi there Just to let you know the watch was not running when I recieved it so it was sent for repair. This was not possible as the case was full of oil and had rotted the seals sticking them to the dial so the paint all lifted when the glass was removed. As it will be too much to repair to have the watch redialled as well as serviced and seals replaced I've just had to throw it away. I know you did not say it was running when you sold it but I am very disappointed about it all.

Alasdair

Now you know also my version let know about...


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

ALFA-Watch said:


> Now you know also my version let know about...


Well personally my response would have been to say that I was terribly sorry and offer a full refund, I don't know what the other forumers think?


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## ALFA-Watch (Jan 11, 2007)

Sorry again, but i think...when the watch arrived broke you send me an email and ask refoud money, but you can't send me an email after you open the watch and throw it away.

Also why he don't pay for a insurance shippment?


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

ALFA-Watch said:


> Sorry again, but i think...when the watch arrived broke you send me an email and ask refoud money, but you can't send me an email after you open the watch and throw it away.


I would agree with that.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Ah see now you may call me old fashioned but I regard this place as being amongst friends and I couldn't live happily if I had taken good money off a friend for a watch and then they find it didn't work.

The postal insurance is irrelevant


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## knuteols (Feb 22, 2006)

pg tips said:


> Ah see now you may call me old fashioned but I regard this place as being amongst friends and I couldn't live happily if I had taken good money off a friend for a watch and then they find it didn't work.
> 
> The postal insurance is irrelevant


Totally agree! I know I would not sleep well at night if I sold a watch that arrived non-functioning or damaged, no matter what the cause. It's just common sense, even more so when you consider where we all "hang out": on the RLT forum, among friends.

Just my thoughts...


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## ALFA-Watch (Jan 11, 2007)

indeed you think i must refoud the money?

And... my watch???? Because he din't advise me before to carry it to the watchmaker? I could refoud he but he return the watch in the same conditions that are looked in photo.

Are you sure...about the postal insurance, and if the trouble has caused the shipment to it? so I am defenseless


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## feenix (May 27, 2008)

ALFA-Watch said:


> Yes, i know this forum is not eBay, buying and selling umungst friends, ok, i am sure when i sold the watch it working, after i ship it no working. The watch have a monobloque case and is water resitant 1000m so i think it is very hard, the watch appair in NOS condition also the other 3 watches its companions ( I have acquired them all together) sold to DaveE haven't problem.
> 
> Now is it possible the watch is broke about the shippment? The buyer pay for a shippment without the insurance, i shipped it by registered mail.
> 
> ...


If the buyer has 'thrown away' the watch then you cannot possibly expect the seller to refund his money. Alfa, thanks for explaining yourself, its always easier to make judgments when you've heard both sides of any disagreement. I for one would have no worries about buying from you in the future.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Come on guys...lets be sensible here...at the very least, the seller should get his watch back if he's offering a full refund.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

The postal insurance wouldn't cover the damage to the dial and the gaskets from the oil would it?

I think Alas was trying to be Kind to you. He received a NOS watch which didn't work and sent it to a repairer assuming it just needed a service before he contacted you. If the service had cured it I'm sure he would have absorbed the cost and wouldn't even have informed you.

Unfortunately the watch was beyond repair. It was impossible for the repairer to put it back "as it was". Even if he could have done and you got it back what would you have done with it, sold it on ebay???

Admittedly if it had been me I would have had the watch sent back to you but that isn't the point. The point is you sold a "pup" to a forum buddy.


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

Cannot resist....sorry.....but seems odd to throw the watch away before asking for a refund....thats all.....although I do think having the watch looked at and opened is fair enough....it could have been something trival, but to throw it away? Nobody but the two invlovled know all the details so i ain't making any judgements.....just hoping it gets sorted.


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## knuteols (Feb 22, 2006)

Hmm... I should stay out of this... but I don't think the seller is offering a refund. Or is he? And the buyer is *not * asking for a refund. The email from the buyer to the seller only states that he is *very disappointed*.


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

Last Word from me.

If you read my posts I have stated I did not ask for cash back. I stated this at least twice which can be checked by reading the threads.

Now to the facts.

1. Postal insurance was not offered in the sale (the sales post can confirm this)

2. Did the post office unpack the watch , overfill it with oil, , adjust the movement so it ran slowly if at all, repack it and send it on?

3. I paid for the watch, paid for the postage from Italy, paid for the postage to Roy when it arrived not working and he kindly did not charge me for looking at the watch.

4. I was not going to pay to have a useless watch returned to me and accepted by doing this I could not return it to the seller.

5. I emailed the seller to inform him but was told sorry but can't do anything

6. I emailed the seller again to discuss the descriptions he used.

This is my last comment on this - I did nothing about this for about 2 months until further ads appeared in the sales forum. It was obvious his policy of description had not changed as they were described as NOS, serviced but not tested and NEW NEW. I then posted the issue, informed the mods and waited. I heard nothing from the seller so posted the name.

Do I regret it - no as it may have prevented someone else spending money for a product that was not fit for sale.

ALFA-Watch has the money for the watch

I on the other hand have nothing to show for the transaction but anger and disappointment.

Alasdair


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## ujjwaldey (Mar 3, 2008)

ALFA-Watch said:


> Sorry again, but i think...when the watch arrived broke you send me an email and ask refoud money, but you can't send me an email after you open the watch and throw it away.
> 
> Also why he don't pay for a insurance shippment?


You see; thats the difference between flea bay and this forum.

I am a new guy here and have bought several watches; without even checking the history of the seller ( how do you do that anyways). Every time, I have been surprised that the watch that arrived was far better than what was described; and in two occasions, the packet contained stuffs that I had not even paid for ( inculding one time, a second watch). That is why I always buy from this forum ( and the other UK watch forum) and nowhere else. And I am sure thats the trust I would always have on folks on this forum.

If the transaction is to be based on rules of street side commerce, rather that rules of friendship, I think it better not happen here. For me this is a place to make friends, learn about watches and maybe buy a watch or two.

When one has to be asked  for refunds; rather than offer as a matter of trust, one should go and offer one's ware on the flea bay rather than here


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## ujjwaldey (Mar 3, 2008)

Alas said:


> Last Word from me.
> 
> If you read my posts I have stated I did not ask for cash back. I stated this at least twice which can be checked by reading the threads.
> 
> ...


Alasdair

In my mind you have not only acted honourably; but also been more than fair and tolerant.

Quite honestly, if that happened to me, I would have expected my money back, cost of postage back and big note to say sorry ( irrespective of whether I bought it on this forum, ebay or a brick and mortar shop).

If some people think this is a place to sell without any comebacks for selling lemons ( just because this is a friendly place), they are wrong. I really think this seller should volunteer not to sell any more on this forum


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## KEITHT (Dec 2, 2007)

THis whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth....i have to side with Alas on this....OK yes maybe he shouldn't have thrown the watch away...but consider the extra costs in re-assembling the watch and posting it back..when it seemed unlikely to him the that he would get a refund.

I too would have most likely made the assumption that the watch just needed a service/ tweak...and how else do you check? than to open the watch up....if damage then occurs due to the dis-assemble..you are in a bit of predictament....and it seems obvious that from whats been stated already that no refund would have been offered in anycase.... i wonder if Roy would care to comment on the condition of the watch...he afterall is the only one we actually know has been inside of it!!!

Postal insurance is irrelevant in this case as the watch neither went missing or was damaged in transit...

I ( hopefully ) always try and put right any problems with watches i may have sold...whatever the reason...i want my buyers to be 100% happy...and you can always come to an agreement that will make people at the very least satisfied....in some cases that just means a prompt response so they know you give a s**t.

We should be able to trust the sellers descriptions totally and if there is any suspicsion that are being blatantly or even for that matter inadvertantly described, then this should be bought to the sellers attention....i feel there is enough knowledge and experience on here to do that....i for one always ask certain fellow members their opinions if i am attempting to buy something out of my field of expertise.....and i am happy to say that they always come through for me....

I hope this incident doesn't put you off coming here Alas...and i hope that you, Alpha-watch will take note of the comments made and amend your sales posts accordingly...better IMO to underdescribed a watch.....that way your buyer is likely to be even more pleased....

Keith


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

this place is based on trust when you sell and buy or even advice on buying. i think alas gave clear notification as to the problem before the watch was binned and thats the problem there was no reply to the email or pm and that just looks like avoidance .

it would have wound me up and i think alas handled it correctly .

jason.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2008)

The watch should have been cut in half and half of the money refunded - a legal precedent set by Solomon :lol:

This is a really tricky situation and it is easy to see where it has gone wrong - the problem *should* have been flagged by the buyer as soon as the watch arrived, but the buyer was being reasonable and tried to get the problem sorted himself.

There is no easy answer, the buyer tried to do the right thing, and it is also understandable why the seller refused a refund when he was told that the watch had been disposed of.

May I suggest that the best outcome to resolve the issue is that a refund of 50% is offered, but, I can also fully understand why the seller would reject the proposal as unreasonable.

I'm off to find a fence to sit on.


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## KEITHT (Dec 2, 2007)

potz said:


> KEITHT said:
> 
> 
> > I hope this incident doesn't put you off coming here Alas...and i hope that you, *Alpha-watch* will take note of the comments made and amend your sales posts accordingly...better IMO to underdescribed a watch.....that way your buyer is likely to be even more pleased....
> ...


Hmmmm..wasn't meant to be a flippant or funny comment....think i could have phrased it better...


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

I'll say again.

What I wanted from this is the seller to make clear in his descriptions about the watch and others in the future. Not a refund as he couldn't have the watch back. In case there is any doubt Roy will be able to confirm that he binned it on my instructions. I do not have the watch.

This was the sales post

Philip 1000m Post

PG got it spot on. When it arrived I realised it ran for about an hour every 12 hours so as it was a present I thought I'll just get it serviced and that'll be that. Then the problems started

Every other deal I have been involved in on here has been great and I'm sure people I have bought and sold with will attest to my honesty and willingness to help.

The End

Alasdair


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## Toshi (Aug 31, 2007)

jaslfc5 said:


> *i think alas gave clear notification as to the problem before the watch was binned* and thats the problem there was no reply to the email or pm and that just looks like avoidance .


Actually I don't think that is the case, and I think that is what has caused the problem in many ways. From reading the posts it seems that the first time Alasdair contacted the buyer about the problem was after Roy had taken a look and the watch had been binned.

As I said earlier, it does happen that a watch is sold with a problem that the seller is unaware of. When the watch arrived and was running slowly, it might have been better for Alasdair to contact the seller at that point. Had he done so it is entirely probable that Allesandro would have offered a refund. I have no doubt that Alasdair acted in good faith by sending the watch to Roy without contacting the seller, and it seems to me that Alasdair didn't want or expect a refund once the watch had been thrown away.

Alasdair's complaint seems to have nothing to do with the question of a refund, but everything to do with the way the watch was described. Understandably he had concerns that this could happen to someone else, and this is why he posted initilally. Hopefully Allesandro will think about how watches are described in future, and I would urge buyers to contact the seller immediately if a watch they have received is not as they expected.


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## squareleg (Mar 6, 2008)

This forum is a rare and remarkable place; and it is the responsibility of all of us to keep it that way.

_Questo foro e un' posto raro e notevole; anche e la responsabilita di tutti noi lo mantenere cosi._


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## ALFA-Watch (Jan 11, 2007)

I think nobody refoud the money without the integral restitution, also you are sure the watch is opend right by watchmaker?

I can refound money but i think is not right, because also in friendly exist the rules.

it's not right throw the watch.

however if to the moderators think...Alas have right, I give back 50% money

I hope that this puts end to the comments, i is ashamed of whom it has been written on me.

Also the moderatos let me know if i must left the forum


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

catflem said:


> I'm off to find a fence to sit on.


Can I join you? This is no-win situation for everyone...but most of all for Alasdair since he is out-of-pocket.


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

ALFA-Watch said:


> I think nobody refoud the money without the integral restitution, also you are sure the watch is opend right by watchmaker?


This is the problem.

When the issue was first answered by ALFA-Watch he said the problem might be I had not paid for insurance. 

Now the watchmaker - who is Roy of RLT fame :lol: , is getting blamed. 

Accept that the watch was faulty whether you knew or not.

Alessandro

I do not want and will not accept your money in refund as I have stated since the start.

I would like you to produce where I asked for money back as you stated

You sold a ruined watch but did not seem to care when told

You describe watches in such a way they appear to be perfect with no problems

Enough is enough

See you all around.

Cheers

Alasdair


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

Alas said:


> I'll say again.
> 
> What I wanted from this is the seller to make clear in his descriptions about the watch and others in the future. Not a refund as he couldn't have the watch back.


On looking at the original ad I would have expected the watch to be working, but maybe need a service to make it a reliable "wearer".

I would have probably gone down the the same path as you Alas.. One lives and learns and then forgets.

This situation needed bringing to our attention though so we can judge for ourselves.


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## squareleg (Mar 6, 2008)

ALFA-Watch said:


> however if to the moderators think...Alas have right, I give back 50% money
> 
> I hope that this puts end to the comments...


I think that is an excellent proposal - then everyone can calm down a bit and we'll put all of this behind us.


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2008)

ALFA-Watch said:


> I think nobody refoud the money without the integral restitution, also you are sure the watch is opend right by watchmaker?
> 
> I can refound money but i think is not right, because also in friendly exist the rules.
> 
> ...


The watch would have been opened correctly - it was sent to Roy (RLT), the owner of this forum, who is a highly skilled watchmaker.

You are correct, it was a mistake to throw the watch away, but it is also understandable why this was done.

It is not up to the moderators to decide whether a refund is due, you have to look into your own heart and decide if you think a refund is due. If you feel strongly that your description when selling the watch was totally accurate, then your heart will decide that no refund is due. Nobody can force yoy to do what you think is wrong.

Alas has stressed that it is not about the money, he would like you to be more accurate with your descriptions in the future. I think he will refuse to accept the money anyway, so a suggestion would be to donate it to a charity close to Alasdairs heart.

I don't think you have to leave the forum at all. A sale has gone wrong, events have occurred that cannot now be corrected, thats life, There have been mistakes made by both parties.


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## Toshi (Aug 31, 2007)

squareleg said:


> I think that is an excellent proposal - then everyone can *calm down* a bit and we'll put all of this behind us.


calm down! calm down!


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## ALFA-Watch (Jan 11, 2007)

Appreciate!!!


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## ujjwaldey (Mar 3, 2008)

Alas said:


> . When it arrived I realised it ran for about an hour every 12 hours so as it was a present I thought I'll just get it serviced and that'll be that.


Sorry to say this, but from reading the the Buyers and Sellers post and the sales post, it seems to me that it is entirely the Sellers fault

1. He describes the watch in the sales post as (sic) *NEW NEW *. Leaving aside the use of English, if a watch is described as new, the least it can be expected to do is work.

2. The watch which arrived worked for 1 hour every 12 hours; this could not be a watch which is "NEW"

3. The watch was looked at by Roy and found it to be filled with oil; clearly he knew what he was doing

4. The Seller blames different things at different times : first the insurance and then the watchmaker; i.e Roy

5 If Alisdair didn't want a refund, he could very well do what he pleases with the junk watch

6. Instead of apologising, the Seller is making it out that he has no responsibility in the matter

Sorry to say; but just as I would always thank a good Seller and helpful friends on this board; I would say my piece when I notice a Seller who is being unfair.


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## dougal74 (Oct 5, 2006)

ALFA-Watch said:


> Appreciate!!!


Alessandro, to help rebuild your reputation people are looking to you for action: -

Alas would like you to modify your sales posts in future to properly describe the condition of your watches. I do not know the Italian for "oversell" but most people here "undersell" their watches so there is no disappointment.

Other forum members but NOT Alas are suggesting that the honorable thing for you to do regardless of the fact the watch is in the bin is to offer a (full or part) refund - I suspect one that might be refused in any event!

What you do is up to you, not the mods or anyone else, but people will judge you on what happens next.


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## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

pg tips said:


> The postal insurance wouldn't cover the damage to the dial and the gaskets from the oil would it?
> 
> I think Alas was trying to be Kind to you. He received a NOS watch which didn't work and sent it to a repairer assuming it just needed a service before he contacted you. If the service had cured it I'm sure he would have absorbed the cost and wouldn't even have informed you.
> 
> ...


Just My Two penneth worth Here.,

I agree 100% with the above.

I for one have traded several pieces on this forum and would like to think that the buyers were 100 AND 10% happy with the Item,

My standards are high and I am VERY,VERY Fussy.

I describe the pieces as they are. New Or NOS means not used, New Or NOS with strap/Bracelet changed/sized means - Just that.

these descriptions contain no ambiguity,









Treat People As you Would Wish To Be Treated Yourself (As My dear old Dad used to say.)

If this situation had arose with me -(It never would-I don't dress mutton as lamb and try to sell it)

I would do one of two things;

offer a full refund and an opology.

Offer to replace the watch - even if the first one is missing/disposed of.

Now,

I Have a Tissot for sale on the sales forum,

I would like to donate the proceeds of this watch sale (For whatever it sells for), to Alasdair to try and recompence him in some way

and restore his faith in this fora and it's members.

Regards,

Graham


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

ujjwaldey said:


> Alas said:
> 
> 
> > . When it arrived I realised it ran for about an hour every 12 hours so as it was a present I thought I'll just get it serviced and that'll be that.
> ...


Wasn't going to comment on this but sorry my man but I think you are being a bit harsh on the seller, seems to me there is a bit on both sides of this unfortunate episode and he had offered a sort of comprimise settlement allbeit that the buyer isn't bothered about that. IMHO the watch should have been sent back to the seller to clearly show what the problem was and then taken from there.

If you have a look at the original ad he makes no outlandish claims or other sales blurb you see in some adds about it other than an old watch which is new, now I would take that, given his poorish english, as "as new" or "new old stock" maybe.

*Was it completely irrepairable or just economically not viable to repair is one question I would ask *and that to me might make a difference. Buying an old watch be it NOS or whatever there will be a certian amount of risk involved and you might also argue that you should budget for some service work to recomission a watch that may well have lay in a box for years.

B.


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

BondandBigM said:


> he had offered a sort of comprimise settlement allbeit that the buyer isn't bothered about that. IMHO the watch should have been sent back to the seller to clearly show what the problem was and then taken from there.
> 
> . Buying an old watch be it NOS or whatever there will be a certian amount of risk involved and you might also argue that you should budget for some service work to recomission a watch that may well have lay in a box for years.
> 
> B.


No compromise or settlement was offered.

I sent the watch at my own cost to be serviced/repaired and wasn't going to even mention it to the seller..

The cost of redialling, gaskets & seals outweigh the value of the watch plus whatever else may be wrong with it.

As has been said already when I pointed out the problems I also said I did not want money back as I did not investigate the sales post enough. That was my fault. This meant I can do what I want with the watch whilst being able to raise my concerns for other members of the forum. I hope the same doesn't happen to yourself some day.

Alasdair


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## hikingcamping (Apr 27, 2008)

I thought it was only right and proper for the seller to offer the buyer a refund/solution even when not asked :yes: ? I would do exactly what Alas has done if I was in his situation.

Just my two cents.


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

grahamr said:


> pg tips said:
> 
> 
> > The postal insurance wouldn't cover the damage to the dial and the gaskets from the oil would it?
> ...


Hi Graham

Thanks for your extremely kind offer but because of the reasons in my PM to you I couldn't possible accept. This however is the sort of thing that restores faith in the forum and 99.9% of the members. Once again thanks for your very kind gesture.

Alasdair


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Alas said:


> BondandBigM said:
> 
> 
> > he had offered a sort of comprimise settlement allbeit that the buyer isn't bothered about that. IMHO the watch should have been sent back to the seller to clearly show what the problem was and then taken from there.
> ...


Agreed that was not the case the time but the lad has came forward said his piece and made an offer of recompence and as you rightly say maybe you should have asked a few more questions. My comment were not directed at you personally and I used Buyer and Seller rather than individuals so regardless of fault I still think the seller is getting a bit of a rough ride. Maybe he could have replied quicker or given a better description but at least he has stood up and his reason for the late reply seems to me on the face of things fairly plausable.

B.


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## ujjwaldey (Mar 3, 2008)

Well, my man M, I think you are being more than generous to the Seller. He misdescribed the watch, tried to blame others; and honestly, to me, his story does not add up. . It was a 'pup' when it left the shores of the Seller, and given what the condition of the watch was, it is a reasonable assumption that the Seller ought to have known about its state. Watches don't get filled with oil in air transit, you know

The issue here is not why Alasdiar didn't ask for a refund, the issue is why did the Seller *not* offer him a full and unconditional refund when he first heard of the issue, however late that may be.

In my mind, the Seller is treating this forum as a alternate to e bay, wher he can sell his stuff without any listing fees and without any comeback.

I really hope this does not happen again here; but, given the trusting nature of this site, I fear it will.

Ujjwal


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

ujjwaldey said:


> Well, my man M, I think you are being more than generous to the Seller. He misdescribed the watch, tried to blame others; and honestly, to me, his story does not add up. . It was a 'pup' when it left the shores of the Seller, and given what the condition of the watch was, it is a reasonable assumption that the Seller ought to have known about its state. Watches don't get filled with oil in air transit, you know
> 
> The issue here is not why Alasdiar didn't ask for a refund, the issue is why did the Seller *not* offer him a full and unconditional refund when he first heard of the issue, however late that may be.
> 
> ...


How you can continue to confuse me with "M" I'll never know

I'm the good looking one, the brains of the outfit and this is Big M

:lol: :lol:


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## bunchie32 (Jun 27, 2008)

it seems to me that no-one involved is going to come out of this well, which is a shame.

furthermore i think it's a private matter between two individuals, and airing it on the forum for whatever reason is just dragging in other people and creating unneccesary division.

so let's leave it, eh?


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## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

ujjwaldey said:


> Well, my man M, I think you are being more than generous to the Seller. He misdescribed the watch, tried to blame others; and honestly, to me, his story does not add up. . It was a 'pup' when it left the shores of the Seller, and given what the condition of the watch was, it is a reasonable assumption that the Seller ought to have known about its state. Watches don't get filled with oil in air transit, you know
> 
> The issue here is not why Alasdiar didn't ask for a refund, the issue is why did the Seller *not* offer him a full and unconditional refund when he first heard of the issue, however late that may be.
> 
> ...


Now that IMO is 100% bang on - and the seller is doing EXACLY that.

Regards,

Graham


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

bunchie32 said:


> it seems to me that no-one involved is going to come out of this well, which is a shame.
> 
> furthermore i think it's a private matter between two individuals, and airing it on the forum for whatever reason is just dragging in other people and creating unneccesary division.
> 
> so let's leave it, eh?


Nice sentiment but it was raised to prevent it happening to other buyers on here.

Alasdair


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## Steve R (Sep 29, 2007)

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Can we file this under D for Done To Death and move on before we all end up in a pool of blood?!

If I were to summarise, I would say:

1) This whole episode is very unfortunate.

2) We need to remember to ask pertinent questions in any transaction. A seller should certainly make reasonable efforts to accurately represent their item, but I know from a transaction with an absolutely 100% cast-iron member of this community that sometimes you just don't notice defects in a watch you rarely or never wear - accidents happen, and when confronted with one you either take it upon yourself to fix it, or re-engage the seller before taking any further action - you can't (usually/reasonably) do both.

3) If a watch is binned it can't reasonably be refunded, and Alasdair never asked for that.

4) There's an opportunity for everyone to learn something from this, and I suspect all involved parties have - a repeat is highly unlikely.

5) Perpetuating debate on this specific topic is in danger of poisoning this jolly nice place - it would seem appropriate to me to lock this thread now and enjoy the fact that it's now dangerously close to the weekend. 

S.


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## Chukas (Aug 7, 2008)

I think after reading both sides, alasdair is 120% right and should off got a full refund. Although i have not got a lot of posts on this forum (due to occupation) i read all the various topics regularly and would not hesitate to buy off you guys with your experience, integrity,honesty and friendliness. It certainly helps newbie,s like me!! :lol:


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## SharkBike (Apr 15, 2005)

KEITHT said:


> potz said:
> 
> 
> > KEITHT said:
> ...


It wasn't the comment, it was the misspelling of "ALFA-Watch".

He may have messed up, but does he really deserve to be called an "Alpha watch"?


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## ujjwaldey (Mar 3, 2008)

Steve R said:


> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
> 
> Can we file this under D for Done To Death and move on before we all end up in a pool of blood?!
> 
> ...


Thats your summary Steve; and I disagree

The whole point in buying here on this forum is that I *dont* have to ask all sorts of questions; I take it for granted that unless stated otherwise, the watch is in reasonable condition ( commensurate with the asking price) and as a functional watch should be. If the watch does not run properly , or has the crystal scratched or cracked, or the date function stuck; it would be stated by the seller. I take it that as a Buyer, I would be told about the watch on the big issues.

Otherwise, I might as well have been buying from the ebay; and the sellers may as well have been selling on the ebay.

New comers to this forum have an expectation that the forum members are trustworthy; and events like this will eat away that trust. Moving on before we all have understood where we stand on these issues on this forum will not help us in the long run; at least in my view


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## bunchie32 (Jun 27, 2008)

Alas said:


> bunchie32 said:
> 
> 
> > it seems to me that no-one involved is going to come out of this well, which is a shame.
> ...


fine.

but i disagree with you airing it publicly. it has nothing to do with anyone except you and him - private deal, private problem.


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## Steve R (Sep 29, 2007)

As you wish - I've nothing to add. This is not a constructive discussion in my personal opinion, but you carry on - enjoy!


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## ujjwaldey (Mar 3, 2008)

bunchie32 said:


> Alas said:
> 
> 
> > bunchie32 said:
> ...


I disagree with you Bunchie. It was a fair thing for Alisdair to raise the issue; at least i, for one, am now warned about this buyer; and would never deal with him. Sharing experience is what this place is about; not doing private faceless deals. Afterall, the watch was advertised on this forum.

May be it didn't help you; but I was helped by this; and thats what makes this place such a trusting site rather than an ebay.


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## ALFA-Watch (Jan 11, 2007)

ok i stop the dispute! I refound 100% Alas and leave the Forum.

it is easy to give the guilt to the seller and don't show what effectively does don't work,

I hope that you find other seller more honest than me

Thanks to those who they have defended to me

Alessandro


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## feenix (May 27, 2008)

ALFA-Watch said:


> ok i stop the dispute! I refound 100% Alas and leave the Forum.
> 
> it is easy to give the guilt to the seller and don't show what effectively does don't work,
> 
> ...


I feel that that is a shame.

I'm grateful to the buyer for bring the whole subject to our attention. I'm grateful to the seller for explaining his point of view (albeit a little late), this thread should then have stopped at that point. As has been stated earlier, this was a private sale! The feedback was genuinely given and this is clearly not an attempt by one member to stitch-up/rip-off another. The way that some members seem to have smelt blood in the water and then jumped on the band wagon on one side or the other is shameful.

Everyone seems to have an opinion, and would have dealt with it differently. Well, I for one would have dealt with it in exactly the same way as the buyer, if I was the buyer. But, and heres the rub, I'd have dealt with it in exactly the same way as the seller, if I'd been the seller. This was always going to be a no-win situation. All thats happened now is that the original buyer will be made to feel bad about the way this issue has been handled, and the seller is made to feel bad about his own treatment at the hands of his fellow members.

One last point, those of you crying for the Mods and/or Admin to get involved clearly don't understand how a forum works. If this precedent had been set then every sale or deal would have to been over-seen and under-written by the management. A bad situation for all concerned.


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## KEITHT (Dec 2, 2007)

ALFA-Watch said:


> ok i stop the dispute! I refound 100% Alas and leave the Forum.
> 
> it is easy to give the guilt to the seller and don't show what effectively does don't work,
> 
> ...


Hmmm....barn door....horse...bolted...springs to mind....

Whatever went on...no matter who did what and who was a fault...the point in all this really is we are supposed to be dealing with likeminded individuals...people we would trust, people we would no doubt be friends with in the real world..not just in this electronic one....and with that said...no matter what the issues, a response should have been made by the seller immediately he was aware of the problem...this did not appear to happen.

And that is a real shame...

Alpha -watch don't leave because you have made a mistake ...we all do.....spend some time contributing more to the forum..rather than just the sales and show us this was a one off....as i am sure you have a lot to offer us all.

Regards


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## ALFA-Watch (Jan 11, 2007)

Just i refound by Paypal 100% to Alas,

last question, everybady seen the pic, the watch have a perfect look also the original steelband have a look perfect, Alas tell "the movement is full oil" so the buyer throw the watch, the question is: the crystall free scratch, the crown, the case, the steel band, could they recovered? Is it impossible cange only the movement? Bah...i haven nothing by Alas also he no ask money no ask nothing but post agaist me.

I am happy because today i reply reply reply, so now i known same new english word.

Saluti e buon proseguimento


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## pugster (Nov 22, 2004)

well i dont post so much now but still read the forums  (im happy with my collection at the moment) ,personally if a watch was described as 'new' i would expect it to be working ,then again , if it wasnt i wouldnt have opened it up,i would have sent it right back. i can honestly say that all transactions i have made on these forums have been good experiences ,dont lose faith ppl :rltb:


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## KEITHT (Dec 2, 2007)

SharkBike said:


> KEITHT said:
> 
> 
> > potz said:
> ...


Ah yes...apologies.....what is called i think...a fruedian slip....

Keith

Disclaimer..i was in no way infering that Alpha watches are full of oil..neither that Alfa-watch is a mere Homage!!!


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## ALFA-Watch (Jan 11, 2007)

KEITHT...i think you are a clown, you deride me, i shall never permit it.

Why the moderator don't stop these reply???

Repeat:

1) just i refound 100% by paypal the buyer

2) i leave the forum

3) I reply about that


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## KEITHT (Dec 2, 2007)

ALFA-Watch said:


> KEITHT...i think you are a clown, you deride me, i shall never permit it.
> 
> Why the moderator don't stop these reply???
> 
> ...


Tut tut...don't make it personnal.....i made a spelling mistake in my post and was merely trying to make light of it....if you read some of the replies i made in this thread i was in fact trying to give you some sound advice..

You have already lost the support of some members....*don't add me to that list by insulting me...*


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## Chally2 (Jul 11, 2008)

This thread needs to be closed and ALFA- Watch needs to do as he stated he would and let the matter drop.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

My take is this, Allesandro has taken a right kicking on here today, he has refunded Alasdair and is planning to leave the forum, I dont think these are the actions of a dishonest person, I think there have been a few factors that have unfortunatly led us to this sorry ending, the language barrier being just one of them...

I also am a little saddend by some of the comments in this thread before Alassandro joined it.....

He is trying to make amends, if that is too late for some then so be it, but if he was as bad as some are saying he would have just left and made no effort to defend himself or make good..

He is now out of money and has no watch, this is not Alas's fault I hasten to add, he has not asked for or expected a refund...

I say give him a break and leave it now, Im sure whatever he says now wont make any difference anyway....

This is RLT, were the good guys, lets act like them


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