# Electric vehicles.



## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

I was sitting with a friend overlooking one of the main arterial routes going from the east to west of Scotland, and we started discussing the fact that in less than nine years, all NEW cars that pass will be electric. I notice recently that there are more and more EV's where I live, and noticing them is made easy by the green rectangle on the left side of the registration plate. I have two friends who have bitten the bullet. One, retired, has a Tesla, the other has a Renault Zoe, for business use. Both are happy. The performance of the Tesla is shattering, the range is excellent, but the cost puts it out of reach for many. The Renault is ordinary, has a "safe range", to quote it's driver, of around 200 miles, and does everything well. It is on a rental agreement of around £400/month all in excluding insurance. I've had a go on a couple of E scooters, and they were fine for nipping about town, but restricted by a range of 20-30 miles. This can be doubled by purchasing an extra battery, but this comes at a price, (an extra £500 for a very basic example), and the scooters I used had a charge time of around 7 hours via a 13 amp plug, so no on street charging facilities.

Anyone else have any experience ?


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## sabailand (May 28, 2010)

What if theres a power cut or the utilities go on strike.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

sabailand said:


> What if theres a power cut or the utilities go on strike.


 Petrol and diesel pumps won't work.


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## sabailand (May 28, 2010)

WRENCH said:


> Petrol and diesel pumps won't work.


 Forget it.


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## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

sabailand said:


> What if theres a power cut or the utilities go on strike.


 No different to if petrol delivery drivers go on strike, or a war in the middle east pushes up up by 50%

EVs have one major issue as far as I am concerned, and that is lifespan of the batteries. I am not taking range, but after 7 years will they hold charge?

I prefer the environmental mantra reduce, reuse and recycle. Has anyone seen what it costs in CO2 Emissions to make any new car? Better emissions may not make any difference if you are digging up ores, making glass, purifying metals, producing plastics, shipping around the world unless you are doing big mileage.


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## sabailand (May 28, 2010)

scottswatches said:


> No different to if petrol delivery drivers go on strike, or a war in the middle east pushes up up by 50%
> 
> EVs have one major issue as far as I am concerned, and that is lifespan of the batteries. I am not taking range, but after 7 years will they hold charge?
> 
> I prefer the environmental mantra reduce, reuse and recycle. Has anyone seen what it costs in CO2 Emissions to make any new car? Better emissions may not make any difference if you are digging up ores, making glass, purifying metals, producing plastics, shipping around the world unless you are doing big mileage.


 Yes its just the fact if your battery isnt charged and theres a power cut you`re well and truly buggered, i suppose you can say the same when your petrol tanks empty, but you might have some in a can somewhere for emergencies, then again maybe not.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

scottswatches said:


> No different to if petrol delivery drivers go on strike, or a war in the middle east pushes up up by 50%
> 
> EVs have one major issue as far as I am concerned, and that is lifespan of the batteries. I am not taking range, but after 7 years will they hold charge?
> 
> I prefer the environmental mantra reduce, reuse and recycle. Has anyone seen what it costs in CO2 Emissions to make any new car? Better emissions may not make any difference if you are digging up ores, making glass, purifying metals, producing plastics, shipping around the world unless you are doing big mileage.


 It's common with industrial electric forklifts to rent battery packs. We had a truck that the batteries were shot and I just rented/leased a new battery pack for it. You wouldn't just scrap a forklift because the batteries are goosed, currently at work there is station with a whole row of spare battery packs constantly on chargers and when a truck starts running low the drivers just pull up an swop them over, it only takes a few minutes and they are back at work so there are companies already providing this sort of infrastructure to industry.

I don't know about the latest deals but a bit back I looked at an electric Renault and the batteries were on a separate lease.

I would think that this could become the norm in future.


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## Welsh Wizard (Jun 18, 2021)

I've visited Scotland a few years ago and must admit that they were more geared up to EVs than south of the border.

My son made a few interesting points to me the other week:-

1) what happens to all the batteries when their shelf life is over and who will have the ability to recycle in such numbers

2). Pricing- it's already been stated that the cost of an EV is over the budget of many

3) what about areas where their is dense population. Cars being parked on pavements either side of the road. You'll probably end up in hospital falling over the leads!!

4). The political dream is to rid the world of CO2 emissions . Many nations , I'm talking third world in the main will struggle without the support of the wealthier nations. Will the wealthier nations want to support. There's far to much greed out there now. Look at the CEOs of some of the Tech giants

My son actually works for the National Grid and although he's all for the change he is rather cynical about the timescales and the ability of businesses and the population to adjust. It will happen but I do think we need to be a bit more realistic about timescales despite what the doom and gloom merchants preach


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

The problem I see with EVs is the length of time it takes to charge them up...it's not like popping into the petrol station and out again within a few minutes. As Bond mentioned, it would be good if all EVs used an identical industry standard battery pack that could be swapped out for a fully charged one within a few minutes at a charging centre. When I was working and used battery tools, it was no good only having one battery, or you'd have to stop work for an hour or so while it charged up. That's why we all had several batteries in order to keep working. The EV market is young at the moment, but issues like this need to be addressed or no one will use them.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

No spare charged up batteries Boss

Best excuse going for a bit of coffee drinking and a skive at the last engineering place I was at. People used to hide the chargers or the batteries so always another excuse for a wander, just looking for a charger Boss.

Bare wires on the 110v extension cables was another good skive, just nipping down the maintaince to get a new cable Boss

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Some long journeys would also need an overnight stop to recharge. A journey from Reading (where I live) to Scotland (approx 440 miles), easily do-able in a normal car, would require an overnight stop in an average 200 mile range EV. The 620 mile range Tesla would do it, but they cost a heck of a lot.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Roger the Dodger said:


> Some long journeys would also need an overnight stop to recharge. A journey from Reading (where I live) to Scotland (approx 440 miles), easily do-able in a normal car, would require an overnight stop in an average 200 mile range EV. The 620 mile range Tesla would do it, but they cost a heck of a lot.


 The guy I know with the Tesla can do Perthshire to London with one stop for around an hour on a fast charger. By the time it needs charging, he says he's overdue a break.

The biggest issue seems to be the charging infrastructure (local to me). Out of order/faulty charging stations, and sparce availability.

I don't have a problem with EV's, I don't think I'll bother with a car, but so far, this definitely interests me,






I've had a decent go on one of these, and for the money, and about town it's great.






Both quite long charge times though.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Roger the Dodger said:


> Tesla would do it, but they cost a heck of a lot.


 So do some of the others, I've just had a look even a fairly basic Renault with a few extras added in is just short of £30K.

:huh:

Some of the lease deals initially look reasonable but they all have a very low annual mileage limit, as soon as you want to add a few more thousands of miles a year the monthly price shoots up.

Any bets on when it gets to 2030 Dot Gov does a u-turn. It wouldn't surprise me.

:hmmm9uh:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> Any bets on when it gets to 2030 Dot Gov does a u-turn. It wouldn't surprise me.


 If the manufactures stick to their program any u-turn could be restricted.

https://www.edie.net/news/12/Volvo-Cars-to-go-fully-electric-by-2030/


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

WRENCH said:


> The biggest issue seems to be the charging infrastructure (local to me). Out of order/faulty charging stations, and sparce availability.


 I've wondered about this too. Your car is telling you that it needs charging and you arrive at the nearest charging station only to find all the points are already in use. Do you wait, or risk trying to get to the next charging station (if there is one) before it's too late? While I agree that EVs are in their infancy at the moment and as time passes, more charging points will become available, it's not something I will be considering any time soon.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

WRENCH said:


> If the manufactures stick to their program any u-turn could be restricted.
> 
> https://www.edie.net/news/12/Volvo-Cars-to-go-fully-electric-by-2030/


 Possibly but manufacturers will still be able to sell petrol/diesel cars in plenty of other countries that aren't buying into this zero emissions malarkey so I'd be surprised if many of them completely stop production of them all together ??


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> Possibly but manufacturers will still be able to sell petrol/diesel cars in plenty of other countries that aren't buying into this zero emissions malarkey so I'd be surprised if many of them completely stop production of them all together ??


 Should I decide I need a car when I'm an old geezer, maybe I should be looking for a pre EFI old geezers motor now ?










:wheelchair:


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

WRENCH said:


> Should I decide I need a car when I'm an old geezer, maybe I should be looking for a pre EFI old geezers motor now ?
> 
> 
> 
> :wheelchair:


 Yep price on these old clonkers have already went crazy and showing no signs of slowing down.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> Yep price on these old clonkers have already went crazy and showing no signs of slowing down.


 I know, but you can get all the bits, and once that stupid master cylinder that lives in the chassis leg is dispensed with and a servo conversion is fitted, they're nice. Just don't ever believe anyone who tells you they handle good. Against a 100E pop on crossplys, maybe, at a push.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

WRENCH said:


> I know, but you can get all the bits, and once that stupid master cylinder that lives in the chassis leg is dispensed with and a servo conversion is fitted, they're nice. Just don't ever believe anyone who tells you they handle good. Against a 100E pop on crossplys, maybe, at a push.


 When I was an apprentice one of the lads I started with used to borrow his fathers Traveller, we went all over in it.

It was a dog with fresh air holes in the floor and wet feet when it rained but it got us there.

I'm surprised anybody would still want one.

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> I'm surprised anybody would still want one.


 I like them, especially the vans. They're rot boxes, but easy fixed, and there's plenty of upgrades to make them more 21st century. Don't really see the point of the electric conversion though.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

WRENCH said:


> there's plenty of upgrades to make them more 21st century...


 What, wearing wellingtons, sitting on a hot water bottle whilst reading the latest copy of the Readers Digest?

:biggrin:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Karrusel said:


> What, wearing wellingtons, sitting on a hot water bottle whilst reading the latest copy of the Readers Digest?
> 
> :biggrin:


 and the latest DDR accessory. :laughing2dw:

Global warming almost makes a Morris 1000 viable transport.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

The distance thing maybe it just needs another approach. Other than the current prohibitive cost I could easily use an electric car, I don't do that many miles and any longer journeys we go by train.

Brutus did a job for us to get to Scarborough the other week. Spotlessly clean, bang on time both ways with connections at York and as we were in no rush we went off peak so cheaper than taking the car. No sitting in traffic jams or dodgy grub from rip off service stations.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> Brutus did a job for us to get to Scarborough the other week...


 He only asked if you had a ticket...

[IMG alt="Railways said no to Bond movie Skyfall being shot in India. Here&#39;s why - The Federal" data-ratio="90.56"]https://thefederal.com/file/2021/05/article-1351002311852-157ddf86000005dc-704240_636x576.jpg[/IMG]

:laugh:


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## sabailand (May 28, 2010)

BondandBigM said:


> The distance thing maybe it just needs another approach. Other than the current prohibitive cost I could easily use an electric car, I don't do that many miles and any longer journeys we go by train.
> 
> Brutus did a job for us to get to Scarborough the other week. Spotlessly clean, bang on time both ways with connections at York and as we were in no rush we went off peak so cheaper than taking the car. No sitting in traffic jams or dodgy grub from rip off service stations.


 Train travel is often viewed as expensive but if you know what you`re doing it dosnt always have to be, if you can book your ticket quite a bit in advance and you can make some big savings, had some great deals over the last few years going to London from up here in Yorkshire for football away days, there in good time and can a have a bit of tour pub crawl.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

sabailand said:


> Train travel is often viewed as expensive but if you know what you`re doing it dosnt always have to be, if you can book your ticket quite a bit in advance and you can make some big savings, had some great deals over the last few years going to London from up here in Yorkshire for football away days, there in good time and can a have a bit of tour pub crawl.


 Surprisingly rather than the Internet some of the best deals we've had have been from the ticket kiosk in our local station. It's only five minutes from my flat so it's always worth nipping in and asking and as you say some good deals if you buy tickets well in advance and are prepared to go off peak. Before covid we used the train a lot. One time we got tickets direct to King's Cross for £45 return. If you add petrol, congestion charge and parking I couldn't have done it in the car for that.

I think this is the way forward for electric cars, use them reasonably locally or within their range and use trains for longer trips.

As for the away games the landlord of my local runs a bus. Much more fun when there are 30 or 40 of us.

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

What will happen to the price of petrol come 2030, will it go up to offset lost sales or come down because they can't give it away?


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

sabailand said:


> Yes its just the fact if your battery isnt charged and theres a power cut you`re well and truly buggered, i suppose you can say the same when your petrol tanks empty, but you might have some in a can somewhere for emergencies, then again maybe not.


 How often do you experience long power cuts? Maybe the answer is to keep the battery charged rather than run it flat. Solar power and batteries are getting cheaper so many house with a drive could avoid the need to use public charging facilities.

There may be problems for people travelling to very popular holiday spots e.g. Lake District, Cornwall, parts of Scotland where demand for charging points far exceeds availability at peak hol;iday times.



Roger the Dodger said:


> Some long journeys would also need an overnight stop to recharge. A journey from Reading (where I live) to Scotland (approx 440 miles), easily do-able in a normal car, would require an overnight stop in an average 200 mile range EV. The 620 mile range Tesla would do it, but they cost a heck of a lot.


 Many motorway service stations have fast chargers which will get most batteries to 80% in less that an hour and on that journey you would probably stop at least once and maybe twice. One answer might be to buy a smaller ev for everyday use and then hire one with a greater range for the occasional long trip.


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

On the motorway last week, went to a service staion to see the two charging points occupied with two cars waiting, even had a guy manging the queue for them!


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Where I live, there are plenty charging points, Tesla and universal others and they are never fully occupied. Both in town, and on the peripheral park and ride parking, and some of the local employers have installed charging points in the works car parks, which makes a lot of sense 're charging if you can only park in the street once home.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Biker said:


> On the motorway last week, went to a service staion to see the two charging points occupied with two cars waiting, even had a guy manging the queue for them!


 Likewise in our Tesco that has 4 points. All occupied, so no chance of getting on one. Upside is probably that the car owners were shopping and only plugged in for a quick top up, which should cut the waiting time down.


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## Bow (Jan 23, 2021)

Range and lack of infrastructure stopped me from going electric this time, have ordered a PHEV though which I fully intend to keep charged up,


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

We have bought a new Merc hybrid, part of the deal was we got a free home charger fitted. We stick it on charge overnight and it gives around 45miles on electric only or you can change the settings and do sport which is a combination of electric and turbo petrol and it is very quick!! You can also set it to do electric in towns and petrol on other roads. So far we have mainly used the electric only mode as most of our journeys are less than 50miles round trip. 
I also got an electric scooter to run up and down to work on (5miles max) great in this sunny weather no good in the wet!!


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

Nice car mate!


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Guy Martin's programme 'The World's Fastest Electric Car' on Ch 4 was a bit of an eye opener. From batteries catching fire to a trip to John O' Groats that took a heck of a long time and cost £240 in charging costs (diesel cost was calculated at £140) and several of the chargers didn't work. In a converted VW Beetle, he did manage to beat a supercharged McLaren on acceleration.


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## wrenny1969 (Jun 24, 2008)

There was an article in the Telegraph recently where they said if a Tesla had a flat tyre it can't be changed roadside with a jack in the normal way. The problem seems to be the weight of the batteries, if it were jacked up in the normal way it would likely cause the chassis to distort. Apparently it needs a special lifting mechanism.

The other main issue is rare earth metals - not very clean either either end of their lifecycle - seems when at end of life they are exported to poorer countries for recycling.

Maybe technology advances will eliminate some of the problems but it doesn't have long.


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

I raed somewhere that the carbon footprint to build an run an electric car for 5 years was the same as 20 years on a conventional fossil fuel car, sdo the saving is more to do with natural resources than the carbon footprint.

That being said, we still use fossil fuels in production and recharging processes, so electric cars are just a distraction at the moment.


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

wrenny1969 said:


> The other main issue is rare earth metals - not very clean either either end of their lifecycle - seems when at end of life they are exported to poorer countries for recycling.


 Have many batteries been sent to these countries for recycling? They can last for many years and all that happens is that they lose capacity to hold the charge meaning the range falls.

If you have an EV with a range of 200 miles then after 15 years it should still be at 80% capacity and would have a range of 160 miles. Alternatively the battery in the car could be replaced and the old battery used at home where it could be charged at night at a cheaper rate and the stored energy used during the day.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Some info here.

https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/batteries


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

I had an interesting discussion with someone who has an e-van for local deliveries. The vehicle operates 6 days a week on house to house deliveries within a 10 mile radius. The day is planned so that a 1 hour fast charge can be done at lunch time in order to keep the charge topped up for the rest of the day. This is done at an in-town charging point. At the end of day, because the driver does not have the facility to charge at home, the vehicle is left at a town car park charging station for the next day. The driver said they hadn't experienced any problems so far, but pointed out the fact that there are very few businesses using e-vans in the area, so charging points are always available. If the van required a full charge from a standard domestic13 amp plug in charging system it would take approximately 22 hours. For an installed wall box home charge system, just under 8 hours, and from a fast charge as used in a local council car park, give an 80% charge in around an hour, hence the lunch break charge stop.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

We have one fast(ish) public charging point were I live, out for my early walk yesterday and spoke to a driver connecting his car to the charger, he goes down most mornings at 6.30am to top up his car while he is having a cup of coffee and breakfast at Costa, must cost him a fortune :laugh: He told me he likes the car but hates the inconvenience that goes with it - probably sums it up for me

I am still contemplating a plug-in hybrid with a 30 mile 100% electric range which would cover me most weeks but with an engine when I need it for long distance

or I might get a Euro 6 diesel :laugh:


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

I am of the opinion that there will be a massive leap forward in technology when all car manufacturers have to make electric only vehicles.

Today's (and previous) electric vehicles will be looked on in the future in the same way as we now look at the first 'brick' mobile phones


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

eezy said:


> I am of the opinion that there will be a massive leap forward in technology when all car manufacturers have to make electric only vehicles.


 I hope so. The next 8 1/2 years will pass very quickly.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

As some of you know I am involved in finding the metals and minerals needed to build this brave new world, believe me it isn't easy

lithium, cobalt, graphite, silver, rare earth elements, fluorspar, niobium, copper and flurospar are all required

Niobium batteries are under development which if commercialised will push niobium into a big supply deficit

Each EV Car requires about 10kg of rare earth elements look at the projections for EV numbers and you can see the scale of the mining challenge

With most of these metals and minerals recycling is expensive


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

JoT said:


> As some of you know I am involved in finding the metals and minerals needed to build this brave new world, believe me it isn't easy
> 
> lithium, cobalt, graphite, silver, rare earth elements, fluorspar, niobium, copper and flurospar are all required
> 
> ...


 There are supposed to be lots of these materials in Afghanistan - maybe why Russia is so keen to keep an embassy there?


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)




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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

WRENCH said:


> I hope so. The next 8 1/2 years will pass very quickly.


 You'll still be able to drive a proper Ferrari.

*
"Ferrari
*

Don't hold your breath. While the Italian supercar maker plans to reveal its first all-electric car in 2025, former CEO Louis Camilieri said last year he believed the company would never go all in on electric."

https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/07/14/when-will-cars-go-fully-electric-the-europe-based-carmakers-dropping-petrol

As I said previously not all countries or manufacturers are going full EV by 2030 so whilst they won't be sold here in the UK I wonder what the position will be on importing a petrol car from a country still selling them. Remember back in the 90's when cars were very cheap in Holland, some tax thing going on making the list price very cheap, my boss just phoned a Dutch Volvo dealership and ordered a right hand drive S80. They were happy to help and he saved a few grand over the UK list price.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

WRENCH said:


>


 HYDROGEN


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

JoT said:


> HYDROGEN


 Its worth reading about the causes of the Hindenburg disaster. The substances used for the fabric coating weren't far off rocket fuel.



BondandBigM said:


> I wonder what the position will be on importing a petrol car from a country still selling them.


 I looked at getting a particular motorcycle that Honda didn't import into the UK when it was released in 2020. I know someone who did, and had to do the full Homologation process, which I couldn't be bothered with, then insuring it was a problem. But I suppose if you've got the money, such problems on buying and running a Ferrari in this country won't be much of a hurdle.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

WRENCH said:


> Its worth reading about the causes of the Hindenburg disaster. The substances used for the fabric coating weren't far off rocket fuel.
> 
> I looked at getting a particular motorcycle that Honda didn't import into the UK when it was released in 2020. I know someone who did, and had to do the full Homologation process, which I couldn't be bothered with, then insuring it was a problem. But I suppose if you've got the money, such problems on buying and running a Ferrari in this country won't be much of a hurdle.


 The Volvo was a UK spec RHD car, just delivered to the Dutch dealership instead of a UK dealer.

I understand the Japanese import carry on but there are plenty of places that will take care of getting it registered and UK road legal.

I have had a couple of dozen and some American motors and whilst it is a bit of a faff on again there are plenty of companies that will prepare them for UK use, not an unsermountable problem.

On the other hand

I bought a Chevy Corvette from Saudi Arabia and it was still on the Arabic plates, the local Plod, I got pulled on the M8 as I approached the Kingston Bridge flyover at speed, were a bit confused, Jock accent with a bit of various foreign chit chat I'd learned on my travels was enough to confuse them.

They are probably still looking for me.

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> The Volvo was a UK spec RHD car, just delivered to the Dutch dealership instead of a UK dealer.
> 
> I understand the Japanese import carry on but there are plenty of places that will take care of getting it registered and UK road legal.
> 
> ...


 Coupled with the current state of affairs at the DVLA, I couldn't be bothered with this lot,

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/motorcycle-single-vehicle-approval

my mate is still waiting 18 months after buying a US import, duty paid/correct paperwork and forms filled in.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

WRENCH said:


> Coupled with the current state of affairs at the DVLA, I couldn't be bothered with this lot,
> 
> https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval
> 
> ...


 He is clearly not using a facilitator that knows what he is doing



:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## bridgeman (Dec 9, 2008)

Daughters Jaguar I-Pace all electric managed a trip York to Isle of Mull with one recharge . Then fault with charging system developed. Currently(!) Leeds dealer has it …3 weeks now …apparently has batteries fault but nobody knows how to change them there and a Jaguar special technician has to be sent but he's on holiday! 
Similar ii-pace on loan racking up the miles and so far that's ok.. very quick though despite the inconvenience.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

I shall be keeping my lovely little Fiat 500 for the forseeable, and if I'm still here after 2030 will continue to use it...I'll be 76 by then if I make it.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Roger the Dodger said:


> I shall be keeping my lovely little Fiat 500 for the forseeable


 A wise decision I would say. :yes:


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

Roger the Dodger said:


> I'll be 76 by then if I make it.


 Me too! I'm not planning on checking out until after 2040.............. :thumbsup:


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

A local place that does conversions if you have a spare £20K, not outrageous if you already have a decent car, certainly cheaper than some of the new ones on offer.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/gallery/electric-dreams-business-converts-beautiful-20735349

And as he hints at in the future you might not be able to drive a petrol or diesel in some cities or areas. There was talk of it in Newcastle and for a while you had to pay to drive in the centre of Durham.


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## Welsh Wizard (Jun 18, 2021)

I'm getting fed up with the whole thing. Once again it's a case where the Politicians and Environmentalist come up with an idea , set deadlines, confuse the public but never thought about how to implement it. What will happen to all those petrol/ diesel vehicles that they want to replace? How many people will be in a position to buy or lease these highly inflated new EVs ? How will people be able to recharge them all ( the National Grid is nowhere near providing this increased level of output )? Could tidal energy have helped- the Swansea to North Devon project was deemed too costly by the Government so what alternatives do they propose?, what happens when suddenly a Million batteries+ need replacing after 7 years or so? 
There are still far to many "what's and how's"

The absolute issue for me is that although I agree with the scientists, primarily for the sake of my offspring, what if any impact will a piffling little country like ours have unless the major industrialised countries like the US, China, India, Brazil, Russia etc commit in the same manner?

It's another one beyond my sphere of influence so I guess rather than worry about it I'll just get on with my daily life . Tomorrow is another day


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Welsh Wizard said:


> There are still far to many "what's and how's"


 Exactly this.

In my overall plan, I made the decision to move from an area where I was totally dependent on having transport, to an area where I don't need it, and it has proved to have been the right decision for my household. My neighbours think there is something wrong with me because I don't have a car. Next month my wife has booked a hire car for 3 days @£104 all in. This is the first time in 4 years this has been necessary. We can walk to the city centre in half the time it would take to drive, and park. From my own point of view, looking at the bigger picture reveals a whole raft of positive possibilities, but that doesn't seem to apply. I always thought the human race e was adaptable but, in general, we're no different from this lot.


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## Welsh Wizard (Jun 18, 2021)

"Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated."

Confucius


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

richy176 said:


> There are supposed to be lots of these materials in Afghanistan - maybe why Russia is so keen to keep an embassy there?


 It was the Soviets who surveyed the country initially followed by the Americans who covered most of Afghanistan with airborne geophysics with follow-up ground visits. One of the big discoveries was that the salt pan/lake deposits in western Afghanistan contain large quantities of lithium. The country is also believed to have large deposits of Rare Earths and niobium which are also needed in the electric economy. The difficulties of developing mines in the country is immense and they won't be coming into production any time soon if ever, China rather than Russia is the main threat as they play the long game.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

I've been looking for a while at electric motorcycles, but they are rediculously over priced, and the range is poor. So, after my first foray into the world of electric bikes didn't work out, I bought another. This time I bought something utilitarian, with a big front mounted carrier 'basket". The first one I had was technologically excellent, but totally useless for carrying stuff. The new one will get the best part of a week's shopping home on it without having to mess around with panniers etc. To travel from my home to the town centre by car, including the time taken to look for a parking space, takes around half an hour. To walk, fifteen minutes, to cycle, five minutes. So it makes sense for me. If managed properly, the range on a full charge will be in excess of 50 miles. My last bike on full power/minimum effort would do 30 miles on a charge. If managed sensibly, the best I got out of it was 107 miles, and the average was 87 miles. The power on them shuts off at around 15 1/2 mph, and on the flat I usually keep it at around 18mph, so I'm not using any power. The local intown speed limit is 20 mph, but that will never be attained in a vehicle because of congestion. Decent cycleways and the permitted use of bus lanes make a huge difference.


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

WRENCH said:


> I've been looking for a while at electric motorcycles, but they are rediculously over priced, and the range is poor. So, after my first foray into the world of electric bikes didn't work out, I bought another. This time I bought something utilitarian, with a big front mounted carrier 'basket". The first one I had was technologically excellent, but totally useless for carrying stuff. The new one will get the best part of a week's shopping home on it without having to mess around with panniers etc. To travel from my home to the town centre by car, including the time taken to look for a parking space, takes around half an hour. To walk, fifteen minutes, to cycle, five minutes. So it makes sense for me. If managed properly, the range on a full charge will be in excess of 50 miles. My last bike on full power/minimum effort would do 30 miles on a charge. If managed sensibly, the best I got out of it was 107 miles, and the average was 87 miles. The power on them shuts off at around 15 1/2 mph, and on the flat I usually keep it at around 18mph, so I'm not using any power. The local intown speed limit is 20 mph, but that will never be attained in a vehicle because of congestion. Decent cycleways and the permitted use of bus lanes make a huge difference.


 picture?


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Biker said:


> picture?


 The latest UK spec model has a different, newer spec drive.


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

WRENCH said:


> The latest UK spec model has a different, newer spec drive.


 Do you have to wear a floral dress and talk about pastel shades and soft furnishings now you have a woman's bicycle? 
you've changed mate! :laughing2dw:

:laughing2dw:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Teg62x said:


> Do you have to wear a floral dress and talk about pastel shades and soft furnishings now you have a woman's bicycle?


 Well it was either that or move to Fife. :laughing2dw:


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

WRENCH said:


> This time I bought something utilitarian,


 Me and my 'tinnie' mate would have to have a go at that. A nice low rider trike with raked forks would be a start, add the bling after. :laughing2dw:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Well I can confirm I'm more than pleased with the range of my electric "womans" bike, and I was delighted, and surprised to be passed by @Teg62x and @Biker whilst out cycling between Wicks O' Baiglie and Yetts O' Muckhart this afternoon.


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

Yes you were peddling like a right pansy!, we flew by all skirts flying, like you were stationary!!

Because we cycle like ladies!


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## Nick67+1 (Jan 1, 2020)

I look after the fleet at work (lord knows how I got the job I'm not really a car person but I know the finance side of it really well) and we would love to go electric but we have some field staff who do some serious mileage.

We had an I-pace as a demo and were very impressed. The infrastructure just isn't there for us to be comfortable making the switch right now though. We need to see better range, with faster chargers and more reliability and availability.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

This looks interesting from BMW and the insurance/licence/over 16 idea wouldn't be an issue to me. In fact not a bad thing for these more powerful E Bikes, especially insurance if being used on the road.

https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2021/september/bmw-vision-amby-electric-bike


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> This looks interesting from BMW and the insurance/licence/over 16 idea wouldn't be an issue to me. In fact not a bad thing for these more powerful E Bikes, especially insurance if being used on the road.
> 
> https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/news/2021/september/bmw-vision-amby-electric-bike


 I rode a derestricted ebike (30mph) through the town, and it was dangerous. Mainly because pedestrians can't hear it coming, don't look to see what's coming, and if they do look, don't expect a bicycle to be traveling towards them at 30 mph, so they just walk Infront of you regardless. The UK 15.5 mph is probably a sensible restriction.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

WRENCH said:


> I rode a derestricted ebike (30mph) through the town, and it was dangerous. Mainly because pedestrians can't hear it coming, don't look to see what's coming, and if they do look, don't expect a bicycle to be traveling towards them at 30 mph, so they just walk Infront of you regardless. The UK 15.5 mph is probably a sensible restriction.


 There is that consideration but some kids can probably exceed that on a normal pushbike and at the moment we are one of the towns trialing those electric scooters and they are flying all over the place.

Big M's son bought a kit to convert his pushbike, a replacement front wheel set up so no pedal assist just twist and go after he fiddled around with it I'm pretty sure flat out it does more than 15mph.

Possibly if they become more common pedestrians will be more aware of them. Didn't you have a bell on the one you rode.

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> Didn't you have a bell on the one you rode.


 Bells are dangerous. I find excessive use can lead to A & E, to have them removed from your lower body.


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## al_kaholik (May 22, 2018)

WRENCH said:


> The latest UK spec model has a different, newer spec drive.


 Really practical solution.

Just had my car MOT'd, passed with flying colours but did less than 1400 miles last year as its our second car/train station/tip run/ run about. an E bike would actually make a lot of sense to me for runs to the station sporadically


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

al_kaholik said:


> Really practical solution.


 A joint household decision was made nearly 4 years ago to go carless. This is the second E bike I've had, and although the first one was technically superior to the latest one, the one we have now is more suitable for the purpose it was bought for. Anyone thinking of getting one, buy local from a dealer that knows what they are selling, cheap or expensive, they do have their problems. My local shop is first class and right on the ball. I only use the power when I need it, so unless I'm going up hill, or get really exhausted, the power is off, and so far I've only ever used "eco" mode, so it looks like I'll be charging it every 100+ miles or so.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

WRENCH said:


> Bells are dangerous. I find excessive use can lead to A & E, to have them removed from your lower body.


 My sister was a radiographer she has seen all sorts in people who ended up in A&E.

I'll need to ask her if she's ever seen a bicycle bell

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

I wonder ?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/transport-secretary-encourages-uk-to-switch-to-electric-vehicles










Being serious. Rural poverty is a reality, and affordable transport an unfortunate necessity. Bus services in rural areas have been completely decimated, so unless a cheap(er) alternative becomes available, a sizeable proportion of society will not be able to afford the change. I would also imagine it would increase the budget required to finance mobility vehicle allowances as well.


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

WRENCH said:


> Rural poverty is a reality, and affordable transport an unfortunate necessity


 I don't know so I'm asking....how is the electricity supply to rural properties these days?

I had a (non working) farm in France in 2004 and it's max supply was 6KWH. Generally, as a single person at the time,, I usually managed to cope although if you got close it would trip. If you happened to be at the end of the lane and the local farmer started milking, you would be lucky to run a couple of lights and boil the kettle.

I feel sure you would not be able to charge up an electric vehicle.


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

eezy said:


> I don't know so I'm asking....how is the electricity supply to rural properties these days?
> 
> I had a (non working) farm in France in 2004 and it's max supply was 6KWH. Generally, as a single person at the time,, I usually managed to cope although if you got close it would trip. If you happened to be at the end of the lane and the local farmer started milking, you would be lucky to run a couple of lights and boil the kettle.
> 
> I feel sure you would not be able to charge up an electric vehicle.


 sounds like a good place for solar panels and batteries.



WRENCH said:


> Bus services in rural areas have been completely decimated, so unless a cheap(er) alternative becomes available, a sizeable proportion of society will not be able to afford the change


 I live in an area with no bus service and so a vehicle is essential. If the plan was to ban all petrol and diesel vehicles then I would be very concerned but as we can continue to run these then by the time they need renewing there should be a decent supply of used EVs available. I think concerns about the pressure on the grid are over pessimistic. The average daily mileage for car drivers is only 20 miles a day and they would only need to charge once a week or so.. Obviously a bigger problem for high mileage drivers but with improved battery technology the range should improve.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

eezy said:


> I feel sure you would not be able to charge up an electric vehicle.


 I know in my old home I would not have been able to use a fast charge supply. The push seems to be for work place charging in my area. Where I live there are 30 off street parking bays, so I would imagine the possibility for 15 double charging points is completely feasible, but it will undoubtedly be at the expense of the property owners. Three neighbouring properties have electric cars, but they charge off domestic supply, which can take up to 17 hours + for a full charge. The owners always plug in the minute they get home in order to keep the charge up. The bus is an easier option for local transport, which is all their cars are used for, and given the fact they are all retired and have (or should have) bus passes, I wouldn't bother with a car.

this starts @ £28995.00










and has a claimed "city" range of 146 miles.


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## blackandgolduk (Apr 25, 2005)

JoT said:


> We have one fast(ish) public charging point were I live, out for my early walk yesterday and spoke to a driver connecting his car to the charger, he goes down most mornings at 6.30am to top up his car while he is having a cup of coffee and breakfast at Costa, must cost him a fortune :laugh: He told me he likes the car but hates the inconvenience that goes with it - probably sums it up for me
> 
> I am still contemplating a plug-in hybrid with a 30 mile 100% electric range which would cover me most weeks but with an engine when I need it for long distance
> 
> or I might get a Euro 6 diesel :laugh:


 We bought a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV a couple of years back - I take the train to work, and my wife covers about 20 miles a day to work and back. Unless we're going any great distance, the car runs as an EV most weeks. Full charge takes about 4hrs overnight (from 3 pin plug), it's easy to drive (think go-kart), no road tax, no congestion charge or ULEZ, and loads of space. Has full range from the 40l tank in hybrid mode, and hasn't skipped a beat since we've had it.

Would recommend.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

richy176 said:


> sounds like a good place for solar panels and batteries.
> 
> I live in an area with no bus service and so a vehicle is essential. If the plan was to ban all petrol and diesel vehicles then I would be very concerned but as we can continue to run these then by the time they need renewing there should be a decent supply of used EVs available. I think concerns about the pressure on the grid are over pessimistic. The average daily mileage for car drivers is only 20 miles a day and they would only need to charge once a week or so.. Obviously a bigger problem for high mileage drivers but with improved battery technology the range should improve.


 I don't disagree, but I always have the fuel tank on my bike full, and I always have my battery bicycle fully charged, because I need to be prepared. Having to fill an empty tank on my bike takes about 10 minutes including the trip to the pumps. Charging a discharged bike battery takes 6 hours, so it's prudent to keep the thing charged, even though you've only done 20 miles, in case of emergencies, which do happen from time to time in my life.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

As I said previously there is a sort of infrastructure already in place.










For the number of car owners in the small culdesac that I live in there would be more than enough lamp posts.

https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/news/2020-news/news-nov-2020/brighter-borough-tops-london-s-league-table-for-ev-charging-points/

As for the countrysiders, worked for years.










How much is a decent horse and small cart these days.

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

WRENCH said:


> I don't disagree, but I always have the fuel tank on my bike full, and I always have my battery bicycle fully charged, because I need to be prepared. Having to fill an empty tank on my bike takes about 10 minutes including the trip to the pumps. Charging a discharged bike battery takes 6 hours, so it's prudent to keep the thing charged, even though you've only done 20 miles, in case of emergencies, which do happen from time to time in my life.


 I have solar panels and could top up during the day from those. I do wonder though if there are enough raw materials available to produce the EVs when sales of new petrol and diesels are banned.


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

richy176 said:


> I have solar panels and could top up during the day from those. I do wonder though if there are enough raw materials available to produce the EVs when sales of new petrol and diesels are banned.


 I doubt it, they are looking to superced over 100 years of motoring evolution with a badly thought out and ill conceived programme, how will our natural resources cope with replacing millions of car batteries every year and in reality, will the overall carbon output reduce?

Naaah! We are just moving the fuel crisis from one theatre to another


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

This looks interesting and sort of reasonably priced when you consider the cost of some high performance pushbikes, wasn't the one that tried to kill Simon Cowell and threw off Guy Martin about twice the price










https://silodrome.com/trevor-dtre-stella-electric-motorcycle/


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

seeing as everywhere around town is 20mph speed limit, this would work for me.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-22/citroen-to-sell-tiny-28mph-electric-car-in-uk-for-around-5000


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

WRENCH said:


> seeing as everywhere around town is 20mph speed limit, this would work for me.
> 
> https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-22/citroen-to-sell-tiny-28mph-electric-car-in-uk-for-around-5000


 An utter waste of resources, for probably 10% more raw material, you could carry four people and shopping. These so-called eco-projects are utter donkeys.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

So as an only vehicle for one or two people how would it compare in a 20 mph enforced limit with say, one of these for getting to the doctors/hospital and the shopping then, resources wise ? and don't even mention fun. :laughing2dw:












Biker said:


> An utter waste of resources, for probably 10% more raw material, you could carry four people and shopping. These so-called eco-projects are utter donkeys.


 For someone like me who couldn't care less about a car, should the case be that I require one due to age, frailty, and electric being the only available new option, something as bog basic and simple as that silly Citroen is probably all I would need. As far as "eco projects" go, I fear I will have long been through the incinerator to be too worried about it. :thumbsup:


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## bikerbill (Dec 27, 2020)

Welsh Wizard said:


> What happens to all the batteries when their shelf life is over and who will have the ability to recycle in such numbers


 This is a valid question which environmentalists tend to steer clear of.

Lithium is very nasty stuff.

It can't be incinerated meaning the only option for disposal is landfill.

Yes a proportion can be recycled but not indefinitely.

Eventually it has to go into the ground.

I'm all for emissions free power sources but I think with batteries we're taking the problem out of the atmosphere and literally sweeping it under the carpet.


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## JRParker (Dec 19, 2019)

I know its going to be totally impractical in the UK but i do love the cybertruck. Hated it at first, but love it now!

Interesting that their new battery upgrades seem to be pretty decent. The tri-motor model comes with the uprated batteries and a claimed 500 mile range on a 2.8 tonne truck which is pretty serious. Plus it does 0-60 in 3 seconds, not bad for a brick!


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Less range, but doesn't look too bad either.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-f-150-lightning-563bhp-electric-pick-truck-revealed


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

When your Tesla runs out of leccy






:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)




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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

It will be interesting to see how this goes.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/29/tesco-to-begin-uks-first-commercial-use-of-fully-electric-hgvs


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## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

Well, I am going for it. A new fully electric car on order for me. Why?

Well my missus wants to go automatic, and more comfortable, so the Mini Cooper is going. We test drove a 7 year old hybrid, which was okay but not great - ironically the petrol engine was quite noisy and course, and it felt like a compromise. Then using some of the advantages of having my own business, I can have a new all electric company car for *1% BIK (benefit in kind)*, so I get taxed on £500 a year for having a £50k car. That means that as a lower rate tax payer the car will cost me £2 a week in tax. For comparison, if I were to run my 16 year old petrol car as a company car the BIK would be £10,725! Plus the deal I got on a car that she likes was exceptional - cheaper than most Kia electric cars with lower retail prices, and hundreds per month less than the Polestar or Tesla with similar RRP's. And the VAT is claimed back of course, and if the company has higher base costs it has to pay less corporation tax, which is rising by 6% next year. Then the money from the Mini can be used elsewhere, and it is currently worth more than we paid twelve months ago for it. In total, it is a financial no brainer if you have your own business.

But there are issues. We had the choice of two cars in stock, both the same colour. Most electric cars have a 3-6 month waiting list, so we accepted the grey car! The range on a good day is less than 200 miles, so in winter expect about 140 miles (lights, heated seats, cabin heating, wipers etc all eat into battery life, which is naturally less efficient in the cold too). Those journeys longer than that that I take are a very small proportion of what I do, but we do have a second car with a petrol engine that can help out here - we have tried a one car approach and being rural with a young family it did not work, even during lockdown, so that has to stay regardless. Hopefully to be used less now the hired electric car is coming. I would not be laying out the RRP for this car - there are better available for that price or cheaper, but overall the compromises worked for us. The fact it is going back in three years, while under warranty, means we should not have to worry about batteries getting weaker with age, recycling them or resale value if new technology leaves this model redundant.

Another issue is getting a wall mounted home charger. All the bigger companies are quoting 6 weeks before install, which is no good if your car arrives in 2 weeks. Everyone is trying to get in quick while a £350 grant is available, and that stops at the end of March. A small, independent specialist is fitting ours in 2 weeks, but took some finding (checkatrade helped here). The chargers are 'smart' so use the power from the grid at the most cost effective times and preventing some strains on the grid system too.

What am I looking forward to? Preheating or cooling the interior via your phone before you get to the car - no need to wait until the water in the engine warms up anymore! £15 to charge is better than £45 for the Mini (it has a very small tank, so we are always seeming to fill it). Memory seats, as I can't get in the Mini if she has adjusted the seat to her driving position.

This is a bit of an experiment, but it is based on financial sense. My accountant is now shopping for an electric car too, which makes me comfortable in my decision! I will update / reveal the model when the car arrives. :thumbsup:

One strange thing on the new car is that it doesn't have sat nav. At first it seems odd, but as you can connect your phone to the car you just use the phone sat nav. Makes sense I suppose, as your phone is updated more often and you can choose the app of your preference with live traffic info.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

scottswatches said:


> One strange thing on the new car is that it doesn't have sat nav. At first it seems odd, but as you can connect your phone to the car you just use the phone sat nav. Makes sense I suppose, as your phone is updated more often and you can choose the app of your preference with live traffic info.


 I notice a few of the wise reviewers saying the same, as the systems offered in some cars, in some cases are almost out dated before they leave the showroom. It also allows the luxury of having to only remember how to operate one mode of technology.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

The technology is getting there, now to make things affordable.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thenationalnews.com/business/2022/01/04/mercedes-benz-unveils-electric-car-which-can-travel-1000km-per-charge/%3foutputType=amp


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## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

scottswatches said:


> Well, I am going for it. A new fully electric car on order for me. Why?
> 
> Well my missus wants to go automatic, and more comfortable, so the Mini Cooper is going. We test drove a 7 year old hybrid, which was okay but not great - ironically the petrol engine was quite noisy and course, and it felt like a compromise. Then using some of the advantages of having my own business, I can have a new all electric company car for *1% BIK (benefit in kind)*, so I get taxed on £500 a year for having a £50k car. That means that as a lower rate tax payer the car will cost me £2 a week in tax. For comparison, if I were to run my 16 year old petrol car as a company car the BIK would be £10,725! Plus the deal I got on a car that she likes was exceptional - cheaper than most Kia electric cars with lower retail prices, and hundreds per month less than the Polestar or Tesla with similar RRP's. And the VAT is claimed back of course, and if the company has higher base costs it has to pay less corporation tax, which is rising by 6% next year. Then the money from the Mini can be used elsewhere, and it is currently worth more than we paid twelve months ago for it. In total, it is a financial no brainer if you have your own business.
> 
> ...


 Well it arrived, slightly delayed but very much a first world problem. After WeBuyAnyCar knocked £700 off their offer for two scuffed wheels on our Mini we sold it via their rival, Twizzle, who collected the car, paid £340 more and the money was in our bank within 20 minutes.

At first it is a bit novel, very quiet and smooth, and it certainly has some beans if you put your foot down (very easy to wheelspin though, as a lot of electric cars are, because all the torque is available immediately.) The charger was installed last week, so it is being topped up now and should be good for a week of running around. Too early to report any real issues or things to get used to other than new car tech, such as a heads up display. And it has a Sat Nav that I wasn't expecting! The cable is quite bulky, and the storage for it is under the boot floor (so no good if you have things in the boot then). We'll see how this electric experiment works out


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

scottswatches said:


> We'll see how this electric experiment works out


 It'll be good to get some real world feedback on range. :thumbsup:


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## Bow (Jan 23, 2021)

scottswatches said:


> Well it arrived, slightly delayed but very much a first world problem. After WeBuyAnyCar knocked £700 off their offer for two scuffed wheels on our Mini we sold it via their rival, Twizzle, who collected the car, paid £340 more and the money was in our bank within 20 minutes.
> 
> At first it is a bit novel, very quiet and smooth, and it certainly has some beans if you put your foot down (very easy to wheelspin though, as a lot of electric cars are, because all the torque is available immediately.) The charger was installed last week, so it is being topped up now and should be good for a week of running around. Too early to report any real issues or things to get used to other than new car tech, such as a heads up display. And it has a Sat Nav that I wasn't expecting! The cable is quite bulky, and the storage for it is under the boot floor (so no good if you have things in the boot then). We'll see how this electric experiment works out


 Could you let me know the contact details for your installer please pal? I don't think that I'm a million miles away from you. I didn't realise that the £350 contribution was finishing in March. I'm going hybrid and was going to see how I got on just using the 3 pin plug for a while but may as well take the plunge!


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## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

Bow said:


> Could you let me know the contact details for your installer please pal? I don't think that I'm a million miles away from you. I didn't realise that the £350 contribution was finishing in March. I'm going hybrid and was going to see how I got on just using the 3 pin plug for a while but may as well take the plunge!


 No problem - PM'd


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## al_kaholik (May 22, 2018)

scottswatches said:


> Well it arrived, slightly delayed but very much a first world problem. After WeBuyAnyCar knocked £700 off their offer for two scuffed wheels on our Mini we sold it via their rival, Twizzle, who collected the car, paid £340 more and the money was in our bank within 20 minutes.
> 
> At first it is a bit novel, very quiet and smooth, and it certainly has some beans if you put your foot down (very easy to wheelspin though, as a lot of electric cars are, because all the torque is available immediately.) The charger was installed last week, so it is being topped up now and should be good for a week of running around. Too early to report any real issues or things to get used to other than new car tech, such as a heads up display. And it has a Sat Nav that I wasn't expecting! The cable is quite bulky, and the storage for it is under the boot floor (so no good if you have things in the boot then). We'll see how this electric experiment works out


 Did I miss what it was?


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## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

al_kaholik said:


> Did I miss what it was?


 Sorry no I didn't reveal - it is a Lexus UX300e. As I mentioned before it is cheaper per month on contract hire than a Kia, and it was in stock.

The car was fully charged this morning, and I have had a busy day. I did 92 miles, with heater, heated seats, heated steering wheel, lights etc all on pretty much the entire time. I started with 190 miles range and ended with 28 miles left, so a total range in a mix of driving of just 120 miles. As I said, I rarely do more than 15 miles a day so I can live with this but it is a definite compromise.

On the plus side the constant power is addictive - on a hill, overtaking, wherever, you have 100% of the power instantly and you never need to wait for the sweet spot. And it is beautifully screwed together, as you would expect.


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## al_kaholik (May 22, 2018)

Sounds like a positive review. Would love to hear your thoughts on an EV in 3-6 months and how it is working. I know a few people with them and because of their lifestyle some love them, others detest them at times. But they all seem to echo your sentiment on power.

I've come to really appreciate the hybrid drivetrain in our Volvo. It makes the car very responsive in almost all situations when the automatic box is playing ball. New models have a dual clutch box. That is, I'm sure, an improvement.


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## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

I'll keep dropping in on this thread for updates. Plugging the car in overnight rather than setting off ten minutes earlier to refuel is already appealing.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

scottswatches said:


> I'll keep dropping in on this thread for updates.


 Looking forward to the updates. :thumbsup:


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

Can anyone say what makes replacement batteries so costly?


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## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

eezy said:


> Can anyone say what makes replacement batteries so costly?


 Lithium is in high demand. Maybe @JoTknows more?

I have genuine reservations about what power 10 year old batteries will have, and how recycling them will be possible. But my car is leased for three years, so that goes under the 'not my problem' banner.


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

scottswatches said:


> I have genuine reservations about what power 10 year old batteries will have, and how recycling them will be possible. But my car is leased for three years, so that goes under the 'not my problem' banner.


 What prompted me to ask was a story about a guy who bought a 4 yr old Merc Hybrid. It's now 8 yrs old and batteries need replacing. He's done his research through dealers, independents and online Merc owners forums.

He paid £27k for the car which is now worth £12800 and replacement cost is £15k + labour at £200 per hour.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

scottswatches said:


> Lithium is in high demand. Maybe @JoTknows more?
> 
> I have genuine reservations about what power 10 year old batteries will have, and how recycling them will be possible. But my car is leased for three years, so that goes under the 'not my problem' banner.


 Lithium Carbonate which is the most used feed to make lithium salts is currently over $35,000 a ton, the cost of converting it into usable chemicals must also be taken into account and of course the manufacture of the batteries which is quite tricky.

Add to that Lithium mining and processing into lithium carbonate is not easy


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## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

JoT said:


> Lithium Carbonate which is the most used feed to make lithium salts is currently over $35,000 a ton, the cost of converting it to usable chemicals must also be taken into account and of course the manufacture of the batteries which is quite tricky.
> 
> Add to that Lithium mining and processing into lithium carbonate is not easy


 For comparison lead is about £1500 per Ton, and copper £6000 following a quick Google. Silver is £54,000, so lithium is roughly half the price of silver.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

scottswatches said:


> For comparison lead is about £1500 per Ton, and copper £6000 following a quick Google. Silver is £54,000, so lithium is roughly half the price of silver.


 That's the $35,000 lithium carbonate price, you still have to convert it to other things before using it a battery

This flowchart shows steps taken to convert lithium brines which are currently the main source of Li, these are sourced from salars in the high Andes










The other method is to mine spodumene, produce a spodumene concentrate, heat to 1000 degrees C, cool then digest at >250 degrees with concentrated sulphuric acid, leach with water to remove the sodium sulphate then filter to remove silicate impurities such as quartz, followed by treatment with sodium hydroxide and sodium carbonate to to precipitate impurities (Ca, Al, Fe, Mg), filter to remove precipitates, then add concentrated sodium carbonate to precipitate lithium carbonate which can then be recovered by filtration.

You then have to incorporate lithium into the electrolyte so the lithium carbonate is treated to produce lithium hexafluorophosphate which is then dissolved in a non aqueous fluid (ethylene carbonate, propylene carbonate, diethyl carbonate and others), you also need graphite which is used in the anode and various metal oxides used in the cathode (manganese, cobalt and nickel). A car battery pack contains around; 35 kg of nickel, 20 kg of manganese, 14 kg of cobalt and 8 kg of lithium and not forgetting substantial amounts of copper and silver required for the electrical systems.

Recycling? It is difficult to do economically and currently only around 50% of a battery's contents are recovered although this improving. The organic liquids used in the batteries also represent a significant fire risk in the case of an accident or manufacturing defect you can get what is known as thermal runaway and explosion, on the positive side they catch fire less often than petrol cars!

Welcome to the world of electrical automobiles :yahoo:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

At this time I don't need a car, but if and when I do, something like this would do fine.

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/artega-karo-isetta-modern-day-bubble-car-remake


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

WRENCH said:


> At this time I don't need a car, but if and when I do, something like this would do fine.


 With a top speed of 56mph that thing has got to be a death trap 

Did anybody see the 5th gear test on the Citroen Ami? It has a 28mph top speed and they nearly tipped it over


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

eezy said:


> With a top speed of 56mph that thing has got to be a death trap
> 
> Did anybody see the 5th gear test on the Citroen Ami? It has a 28mph top speed and they nearly tipped it over


 Everyone likes the negative. I'm more likely to die under a Range Rover jumping a red light.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

WRENCH said:


> At this time I don't need a car, but if and when I do, something like this would do fine.
> 
> https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/artega-karo-isetta-modern-day-bubble-car-remake


 That looks fantastic. An old uncle of mine had a bubble car, I suspect like a lot of Reliant three wheeler owners because he only had a motorbike licence.

I think that modern version would be great if you just tooted around town, not so sure I'd like to take out on the open road. Are three wheelers still banned from motorways.

It's about a 30 mile round trip to the new works and most days you barely get above 40mph, the last time I looked my average speed on the trip computer was less than 20mph so I could definitely use something like that and wouldn't be to worried, as a very nice Plod who invited me to have a seat in his office once sternly told me "if someone had pulled out from in between those trucks you passed at 96mph you'd have been killed.

In reply

"but they didn't"

Didn't go down well but hey ho such is life and here we are, still alive.

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> Are three wheelers still banned from motorways.


 Don't think so. The old Reliants were the same category as a bike and sidecar/trike. I don't know what the current law is but it was bizarre and full of loopholes in the past. A lot of it had to do with weight and not having a reverse gear. The old Bond three wheelers didn't have a reverse, but the engine was mounted above the front wheel and it would just about turn back on itself if you wanted to go backwards.


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

These were the 3 wheelers banned from motroways..

[IMG alt="Visual search query image" data-ratio="76.72"]https://www.friarsmotorcompany.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/i459851.jpg[/IMG]


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

I seem to recall there was a 3 wheel and a 4 wheel version of the bubble cars but the rear wheels were closer together than the modern version above. Isetta and Messerscmidt but can't remember which was which.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

@BondandBigM watch out for "Pop up Toaster Vans". :laughing2dw:








eezy said:


> I seem to recall there was a 3 wheel and a 4 wheel version of the bubble cars but the rear wheels were closer together than the modern version above. Isetta and Messerscmidt but can't remember which was which.


 Both. Some in this clip.


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

WRENCH said:


> Both. Some in this clip.


 Not what I had in mind so had to do a search 

It was Heinkel I was thinking of, otherwise called Trojan. Not Messerscmitt


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Back on topic.

I'm now on my second electric bike. The current one was bought because it is more utilitarian and can be used for getting rhe weekly shopping. It's easy to live with, the battery comes off and gets charged off a 13 amp socket in the utility room. Both bikes I've had haven't been without problems however, and as always I have bought on service rather than price. My first one suffered a charger failure, £200 to replace, and my current one suffered a control module failure. Diagnostics for both involved a plug in to a service centre computer, so from my point of view buying local and from someone who has the backup in parts, and more importantly, knowledge is of greater importance than saving a few quid.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)




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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

I see a new medical/motoring term has entered the vocabulary,

"*RANGE ANXIETY".*


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## RTM Boy (Jun 1, 2011)

WRENCH said:


> I see a new medical/motoring term has entered the vocabulary,
> 
> "*RANGE ANXIETY".*


 The kind of anxiety you get when you're not sure you can keep going without running out of juice and then having to wait hours before you can even think of getting going again. And all the time you're worried that whoever is with you will be disappointed by the performance.

:laugh: :laugh:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

I remember the original version. Side valve engine, three gears, truly horrible, tiny, and the last thing you would ever want to have an accident in. This looks ok, but £60K ?


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## mitadoc (Sep 25, 2010)

An electric car? Maybe in future when charging takes 10 minutes and I get 500 miles range. Otherwise crossing Europe could take a week instead of 26 hours driving ( without the essential breaks and sleep).


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Roger the Dodger said:


>


 Although it's a joke now, you know it's inevitably going to happen... :sadwalk:

...and why in 2029 (if I'm still alive) I will be looking at a SH petrol burner with less than 5k on the clock. And don't even think about dissing that choice... petrol won't increase in price as there will be too many who will be doing exactly the same.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Roger the Dodger said:


> and why in 2029 (if I'm still alive) I will be looking at a SH petrol burner with less than 5k on the clock.


 You'd be better off getting one now and storing it. I've been watching some of the stuff that is already creeping up in price. Anything that is "non plug in" for diagnostics etc and not electronic laden, is already going up.



mitadoc said:


> Otherwise crossing Europe could take a week instead of 26 hours driving.


 Trains slow in Europe then ?

There is as much a change in mind set ahead, as well as method of propulsion. :yes:


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## mitadoc (Sep 25, 2010)

WRENCH said:


> Trains slow in Europe then ?
> 
> There is as much a change in mind set ahead, as well as method of propulsion. :yes:


 Trains follow rails and abide schedules. Cars have more options.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

mitadoc said:


> Trains follow rails and abide schedules. Cars have more options.


 https://www.seat61.com/motorail-trains.htm


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

The most efficient electric vehicles around at the moment seem to be this type...


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

What car represents the least value for money?

The Smartfor2 electric must be a top contender with a range of 80 miles and a price tag of almost £24k!

Added to which they are absolutely horrible to drive. Even power steering is an extra. My brother has a petrol one and I am the only one that uses it when all else fails. (Apologies to anybody that's got one).


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

eezy said:


> What car represents the least value for money?
> 
> The Smartfor2 electric must be a top contender with a range of 80 miles and a price tag of almost £24k!
> 
> Added to which they are absolutely horrible to drive. Even power steering is an extra. My brother has a petrol one and I am the only one that uses it when all else fails. (Apologies to anybody that's got one).


 80 mile range?? What a waste of raw materials..


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## Jet Jetski (Feb 10, 2019)

WRENCH said:


> a particular motorcycle


 I am inches away from getting an electric motorcycle, just to get me on the hill in an eco friendly way. I can walk to the moor, but it's about 4 miles up a (very nice) valley, and it wold be so nice to get to that last lamp-post so much quicker without being 4 miles into my hike already (and padlock my motorbike to it!). I drive up occasionaly, but that seems OTT and the road is very hairy what with the farm vehicles hoving about everywhere and the kids flashing along thinking they are in the RAC rally in their Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 with sparklets cartridges flying out the window.


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

Jet Jetski said:


> I am inches away from getting an electric motorcycle, just to get me on the hill in an eco friendly way. I can walk to the moor, but it's about 4 miles up a (very nice) valley, and it wold be so nice to get to that last lamp-post so much quicker without being 4 miles into my hike already (and padlock my motorbike to it!). I drive up occasionaly, but that seems OTT and the road is very hairy what with the farm vehicles hoving about everywhere and the kids flashing along thinking they are in the RAC rally in their Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 with sparklets cartridges flying out the window.


 How about one of these for 3 grand? 50mph and a hefty range.

Interested to know the legalities of riding a unicycle on the road though. Doubt if it fits in to a licence category.

Veteran Sherman Electric unicycle Blast about - Bing video


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

eezy said:


> Interested to know the legalities of riding a unicycle on the road though. Doubt if it fits in to a licence category.


 Two cases up in local court, and I would imagine that thing would fall into the same category.

You'd be charged in exactly the same way if you were caught driving a car with no license, no insurance, no MOT, no VED. These two cases apply to individuals caught on these things.










You could stay legal and get a pimped mobility scooter. :laughing2dw:










£8200.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

eezy said:


> How about one of these for 3 grand? 50mph and a hefty range.
> 
> Interested to know the legalities of riding a unicycle on the road though. Doubt if it fits in to a licence category.
> 
> Veteran Sherman Electric unicycle Blast about - Bing video


 https://www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/1379/electric-bike-and-scooter-regulations-uk-law-explained

Illegal to use on roads and footpaths without tax, insurance, number plates and lights. Can only use on private land. You can hire one and use it legally, but it will be speed restricted though. However, there are so many E scooters around our way at the moment, I don't think the police are actually bothering to stop offenders, who certainly don't appear to be put off by the apparent fines and seizure of their property they could face. They even wheel them round inside the supermarkets, rather than leave them outside...


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

Never heard the term ''powered transporters'' before.

The term "powered transporters" covers a variety of novel personal transport devices which are mechanically propelled (propelled by a motor) as well as or instead of being manually propelled. It includes e-scooters, Segways, hoverboards, go-peds (combustion engine-powered kick-scooters), powered unicycles, and u-wheels.


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

Do you think that category covers people powered 'Wheelie shoes'?


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Biker said:


> Do you think that category covers people powered 'Wheelie shoes'?


 Hope so. :laughing2dw:

What d'you think of this ?

Made in the UK, apparently. Batteries come out for charging in the hoose. As far as electric bikes go its basic. Hub drive rear motor. In theory it should be less likely to give bother than an electric bicycle.


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

WRENCH said:


> What d'you think of this ?


 Much rather have one than an electric bike I think.

However £995 for the battery ''if bought with the bike'' and only 3 year warranty?

I'm guessing, no heat to keep your legs warm in cold weather? Could you ride one on 'L' plates?


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

WRENCH said:


> Hope so. :laughing2dw:
> 
> What d'you think of this ?
> 
> Made in the UK, apparently. Batteries come out for charging in the hoose. As far as electric bikes go its basic. Hub drive rear motor. In theory it should be less likely to give bother than an electric bicycle.


 I like it, however, I still think we are moving the environmental issue from one area to another. Not getting rid of it, just changing it.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

eezy said:


> Could you ride one on 'L' plates?


 Yes, as long as you've done you're CBT as it's classed the same as a 125.



eezy said:


> £995 for the battery ''if bought with the bike''


 Given the mpg for a current 125, the cost of that battery would relate to about 17,500 miles on petrol after a very quick calculation, then the charging costs on top.



eezy said:


> only 3 year warranty?


 About average, and better than some. These things don't represent any value for money at present.



Biker said:


> I like it, however, I still think we are moving the environmental issue from one area to another. Not getting rid of it, just changing it.


 My entire working life revolved around driving/vehicles, and I got fed up of it. I used to cover huge mileages. Now I don't. I no longer have a car because I now live somewhere I don't need one. I have never been inconvenienced as a result. It was a joint decision, and a planned one, and I have no regrets whatsoever. As things look currently, a whole section of society will become disenfranchised, as car ownership will become out of reach.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

@Stan

Time for tonight's bedtime story.

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:

I wouldn't like to have bought that Porker I saw for a couple of hundred grand the other week and pull beside an old Beetle.






I remember my brother and his then girlfriend buying an old early Beetle and foolishly throwing a ton of money into it, it was fairly quick but they are hateful things to drive and any more than about 40mph it just felt dangerous.

The electric beetle guy charges (no pun intended) a few quid for his conversions but from what you see in his telly series it looks he does a nice job of them.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Out and about yesterday, looks like the local council are getting their act together, with a large expansion of charging points, Tesla and universal.

















and a solar bank.


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## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

Having had an electric only car for one year now, here is my review of the experience.

The car we chose had a limited range, which was fine for most of our driving. Only three times have we had to use our second, petrol car, as we would have been range limited. One of those was a big family holiday to Cornwall, so the 300 mile journey wasn't even close to being possible.

Only twice have I used a public charger, as we have a home charger on our drive. The public charger was the same one, used just as a precaution to make sure there wasn't an issue, and was quite simple to set up.

Getting in the car fully charged and not having to stop at petrol stations is a real bonus. Who likes petrol stations?

Using the heater or air con saps battery range by about 10%. But you can put the heater or air con on remotely via the app, so you never get into a too cold or hot car.

Despite the car I have being quite a high spec, it doesn't have heated washer jets. If you want an electric car make sure it has these, as there is little heat from the engine to defrost those jets.

Would I lease another when this contract expires? Absolutely. The ease of use, and instant power, is very appealing. Yes the cost of charging has gone up, but petrol goes up and down too. I remember filling up at 210.9p a litre on that Cornwall trip, and it is about £12 to charge the battery fully now. Given that electric cars will get better and more efficient going forward I am quite looking forward to shopping for the next one.


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