# The Russian Hamilton-Epperlein



## Silver Hawk

A few weeks ago, Alan on this Forum (sorry Alan, forgotten your Forum name







) sent me a link to this very interesting YouTube video and I've been researching it ever since....:rolleyes:

The video was mixed by Sergei Frolov and I have his permission to use this video on my site (thanks Sergei :thumbsup. At 0:41, it appears to show the assembly of a movement that is very similar to the Hamilton 500 ... in that it clearly has a set of trip and contact wires.






Prior to this video, I thought the only other movement to have such wires was the Epperlein 100 *Prototype*....not the production Epperlein 100; the latter is rare but has an indexing system more similar to the Hamilton 505, so no wires. The wires used in the Epperlein 100 *Prototype* were actually made for Epperlein by Hamilton, but of the 200 watches made, most were returned to the factory and scrapped. I cant even find a good photo of the Epperlein 100 *Prototype* :no:.

Back to the video and this Russian watch. Our own Chascomm is a wizz notworthy on all watches Russian and Chinese and he suggested the movement in the video was probably a Slava 114ChN. Ah ha! Having got a model number, the Googling started...

...and I ended up on the WUS Russian Forum...and met Sergiy Zorin who was asking questions in 2008 about his extremely rare Slava 114ChN, but more importantly, he had posted photos. Even better, he answered my emails thumbsup and has also given me permission to use his photos. The 4th photo shows those characteristics Hamilton 500 type wires:














































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## watchnutz

WOW!!! Truly an interesting developement, Paul. I suppose the hunt is on now to find a Slava 114ChN ?

BTW nice to see an electric posting on the Electric/Electronic board. Thought the quartz had usurped it.


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## Silver Hawk

Next, I decided I really needed to closely compare this Slava 114ChN with the Hamilton 500, Epperlein 100, Epperlein 100 Prototype which meant another permission was needed....from Pieter Doensen, the author of "Watch". I've emailed Pieter several times in the last 8 years and he kindly gave me permission thumbsup to use his photo of the Epperlein 100 *Prototype* in his book, which means I can produce and publish the montage below:

Having studied the four movements below, it seems the 114ChN is not an exact copy of an Epperlein or a Hamilton but a mixture of both. I've tried to summarize below the montage.


Top Left: Slava 114ChN

Top Right: Hamilton 500

Bottom Left: Epperlein 100 Prototype (scan from Pieter's book)

Bottom Right Epperlein 100











1) Hamilton 500 has a completely different battery clamp compared to the other three. 114ChN shares similar battery clamp to both Epperleins

2) Hamilton balance c0ck is very different to the other three. 114ChN shares similar shaped balance c0ck to both Epperleins.

3) 114ChN, Hamilton 500 and Epperlein 500 Proto all have the characteristic trip and contact wires. Production Epperlein 500 does not.

4) 114ChN has a shunt bridge shaped very similar to the Hamilton 500 one. The Epperlein 500 Proto has a very unusual (unique) shaped shunt bridge.

5) 114ChN looks to have an identical balance to the Hamilton 500...which is not the same as the Epperleins.

So from the above, I'd hazard a guess that the 114ChN electrical parts (balance / coil, trip and contact wires) might be made by Hamilton. Is that possible?

Now the last piece of the current puzzle. I managed to get hold of the 1960 Catalogue of the Second Moscow Watch Factory in PDF format and it has the Slava 114ChN listed and even shows the movement.

But although the black-and-white image is not that clear, it is obvious that the catalogue image of the 114ChN is not the same as in the production watch above. In fact, the catalogued movement looks a dead ringer for the Hamilton 500 with same battery clamp, same balance c0ck etc.










Maybe in their rush to get something out, they used a photo of a Hamilton in their catalogue but by the time a production watch appeared, it was more similar to the Epperelin.

I suspect there is more to this story...but that's it for the time being.


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## Who. Me?

Interesting - I suppose if they couldn't buy them (trade embargoes etc), they'd have to reverse engineer them.

So, what's the likelihood that the trip wires are interchangeable with the Hamilton ones, and that there is a stash somewhere in the former USSR (with all the perfectly preserved WW2 aircraft and Amelia Earhart h34r: )


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## Silver Hawk

Who. Me? said:


> So, what's the likelihood that the trip wires are interchangeable with the Hamilton ones


High  ...because Hamilton probably made them...as they did for Epperlein...and they look very Hamilton-ish to me.



Who. Me? said:


> and that there is a stash somewhere in the former USSR (with all the perfectly preserved WW2 aircraft and Amelia Earhart h34r: )


Low


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## Worzel

Silver Hawk said:


> I suspect there is more to this story...but that's it for the time being.


Paul,

Can you make sure you post-in once a day, just so we know the KGB's not got you :shutup:


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## Chascomm

Who. Me? said:


> Interesting - I suppose if they couldn't buy them (trade embargoes etc), they'd have to reverse engineer them.


Some Soviet movements that are copies of foreign designs were the result of a legitimate purchase of the design. Others were definitely reverse-engineered. The Slava 2937 'Transistor' is an example of the latter, being an unauthorised copy of the Bulova 214 Accutron. It has some microscopic yet significant differences from the original.

As Paul noted, the 114ChN has clearly visible differences from the Hamilton and Epperlein, which suggests to me that the Soviet engineers were substantially doing the work themselves. I presume that at this early date, electric watches were still hot property for Hamilton, so it seems less likely that they would supply the design to the USSR. And given the political issues of the day... Mind you, if Epperlein acted as an intermediary, perhaps a deal could be reached. Maybe a few complete sample movements and a cache of the more difficult parts.

The catalogue entry seems to be premature; typical of the Khurshchev-era desire to prove the Soviet Union was up with all the latest consumer technology. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in this story for sure, but Sergij's watch is hard evidence that the 2nd Moscow Watch Factory did at some point succeed in producing their own unique version of the Hamilton Electric. Given their later work with tuning-fork movements, I think it is likely that they would have eventually mastered the manufacture of even the finest parts needed for the 114ChN.

I'm delighted to see all of Paul's forensic efforts and this will make a very interesting addition to the electric-watches website.


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## Silver Hawk

Silver Hawk said:


> I suspect there is more to this story...but that's it for the time being.


Well, I knew there would be more to this story but had no idea more information would surface so quickly h34r: ...once again, provided by Worzel (Alan) :thumbsup:.

It seems that the black and white catalogue image of the Hamilton 500 replica was produced...and there is broken one for sale on a Russian auction site :shocking:! Following photos from this auction and without permission (yet) I'm afraid:



















Seems to have a Calibre Number of 3411 and is a *dead ringer* for the Hamilton 500. Even has the same 500 movement ring and battery clamp (missing):










So we now have two different Russian movements that utilize the Hamilton 500 style trip and contact wires, one of which is an exact copy of the Hamilton 500. Having looked at the video again, I think the movement in that is this Hamilton 500 replica.

Over to you Chascomm, I'm getting confused  maybe I could ask a question: is 114ChN a watch model number or a movement Calibre number? Clearly, 3411 is a Calibre number.


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## Chascomm

Unfortunately '3411' doesn't work as a calibre number as it would translate as '34mm diameter, hand-winding, shockproof, with sweep seconds and a light'. So I think more likely it is a serial number. (More here)

114ChN is a designation for the complete watch. 'ChN' probably means 'wristwatch'. However on some watches, this designation was stamped on the movement (e.g. ChK-6, ChK-28, Typ-1) so it may serve as a calibre number, I think. The standardised 'diameter + specification' format was introduced around 1960, but was phased in with some odd omissions along the way (e.g. the Sportivnie movement never had a calibre code). Watch catalogues subsequently tended to group watches by calibre. So a Poljot catalogue would show all the 2408 on the same page, and then all the 2409 etc.

That is incredible that this other 114ChN version shows up now. And having seen it I can't make any more sense of the story. If they actually produced a batch of these and then switched to a design closer to the Epperlein, why did they not address the contact wire issue at the same time? There seems no logic to it. This Hamilton-like movement is not a rebadged Hamilton. There are enough slight engineering differences to indicate that it was made by the Russians (or at least the ebauche was). So they made one version and then switched to another version that was no more effective but looked prettier. It is almost as if the workers who actually built the watches knew what they needed to do to get a workable result, but the people making the planning decisions didn't have a clue what they were actually asking for.

I like the 'Elektricheskie' inscription. Imagine how cool it would have been to have that on your wrist back when it was new.


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## stefano34

interesting post on a very interesting watch


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## Silver Hawk

Silver Hawk said:


> I cant even find a good photo of the Epperlein 100 *Prototype* :no:.


Many thanks to Guenther Ramm for the following photo of this exceedingly rare beast, the Epperlein 100 Prototype:


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## Larry from Calgary

After tethering my laptop to my iPhone I am once again free to surf the internet, free of corporate censorship and spyware that slows refresh times down to a crawl, all to protect me from seeing a naked boobie by accident or otherwise .

Wow! another amazing thread. :notworthy: That Russian Hamilton clone sure is interesting. Would be nice to see additional detailed pictures of this one. :cheers:


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## JoT

Paul a great piece of work! :thumbsup:


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## dobra

Detective work, par excellence! Well done all, a fascinating piece. :thumbup:

Thanks

Mike


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## Silver Hawk

Postie has brought me something rather special today :yes:.

Muwhahaha!

(speakers on, turn up volume)


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## Morris Minor

Great post Paul - love these detective stories, and fascinating to see the early electrics.

Stephen


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## Who. Me?

Silver Hawk said:


> Postie has brought me something rather special today :yes:.
> 
> Muwhahaha!
> 
> (speakers on, turn up volume)


Blimey, Vincent Price is your postie? :butcher:


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## Worzel

Silver Hawk said:


> Postie has brought me something rather special today :yes:.
> 
> Muwhahaha!
> 
> (speakers on, turn up volume)












___?


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## Silver Hawk

Worzel said:


>


 

Yep...and mostly due to you Alan (and Alexey) :notworthy:

Pictures later today

Edit: just noticed that James looks a little older in that poster. :rofl:


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## Silver Hawk

Silver Hawk said:


> Pictures later today


A big Thank You! to Worzel for putting me in touch with Alexey who acted as an agent in buying this Slava 114ChN for me from a Russian seller. All-in-all, it's taken about 3 weeks but the watch finally arrived yesterday :thumbsup:.

I'd like to say this is grail, but a grail implies you know of the said watch but just don't own one yet. Since most of us (RenÃ©, me, etc) were completely unaware that the Soviets had cloned the Hamilton 500, it must be something other than a grail. Either way, I'm very lucky to own this extremely rare* watch.

A few photos; as received with muck-and-all:














































(*a much over-used term, but this watch must surely qualify)


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## Morris Minor

A brilliant find Paul, and congrats on buying the watch. There must be a better word than rare to describe a model that you didn't even know existed! Terrific photos too as always :thumbsup: Good to see those wires close up.

Any news about whether it will run???

Stephen


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## Larry from Calgary

Silver Hawk said:


> I'd like to say this is grail, but a grail implies you know of the said watch but just don't own one yet. Since most of us (RenÃ©, me, etc) were completely unaware that the Soviets had cloned the Hamilton 500, it must be something other than a grail. Either way, I'm very lucky to own this extremely rare* watch.
> 
> A few photos; as received with muck-and-all:


That's quite the find Paul! Pretty cool to know that these exist. Any chance of there being an Epperlein connection with these?

:drinks:


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## Silver Hawk

Larry from Calgary said:


> Any chance of there being an Epperlein connection with these?


Do you mean official tie-up between 2nd Moscow Watch Factory and Epperlein? This is unlikely in the Cold War era of the early 1960s I think.

But they have obviously "borrowed" features of the Epperlein in this version of the 114ChN:










Whereas this version of the 114ChN seems to be pure Hamilton:










The bigger question is which of these two quite different Slava movements came first and why are they both known as the 114ChN? :huh:


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## mel

It's maybe a Narnia watch, Paul - - lives in the back of somebody's wardrobe 

Good you found it and can confound us with it, though! :yes:


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## bsa

Thank you Paul.


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## Chascomm

So Paul, when do you reckon this saga will have progressed far enough that you will be able to put it all on your site?


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## Silver Hawk

Chascomm said:


> So Paul, when do you reckon this saga will have progressed far enough that you will be able to put it all on your site?


Soon I hope. I've been comparing the individual parts; Slava 114ChN on the left hand side, Hamilton 500 on the right:














































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## Silver Hawk

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## Silver Hawk

More differences than I first realized; biggest difference are in the number of teeth per wheel. You may not see it in the photo above, but those Hamilton wheels on the right are significantly smaller than the Slava ones.


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## Silver Hawk

Silver Hawk said:


> biggest difference are in the number of teeth per wheel


Slava and Hamilton wheels have same number of teeth...but Slava teeth are bigger and therefore wheels are bigger.


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## hamiltonelectric

It looks like they did a remarkably detailed job of reverse-engineering the Hamilton movement. But I wonder what motivated them to change the wheel sizes? Maybe to more easily make them on existing machinery? That's a fascinating discovery, I really regret that didn't turn up a few years ago so it could have been included in my book!


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## Silver Hawk

hamiltonelectric said:


> It looks like they did a remarkably detailed job of reverse-engineering the Hamilton movement. But I wonder what motivated them to change the wheel sizes? Maybe to more easily make them on existing machinery? That's a fascinating discovery, I really regret that didn't turn up a few years ago so it could have been included in my book!


Re: wheel size...I was thinking along the same lines :notworthy:.

You mentioned a few months back that you had lots of newly discovered information should the idea of a 5th Edition ever excite you. Is this Slava 114ChN enough to get you started? If not a full new edition, how about an Addendum to the 4th Edition? :yes:

I'm off to find the Russian warehouse that holds the 10,000 new-old-stock 114ChN contact and trip wires... B)


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## mel

Dare I say Paul, the Slava looks better made than the Hamilton? in your side by sides. :yes:

Maybe I just like the gold colour on the Slava better, but the machining and so on looks nicer :man_in_love: the question that would be next is -

contact wires? are they identical enough to interchange - and is there a stock at what's left of Slava? Our Russian frineds are known to NOT throw stuff away :lol:

Great photos Paul! :notworthy:


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## Larry from Calgary

Paul,

The coil of the Slava looks different than that from the Hamilton. Are the wire sizes the same? Have you taken a ohms measurement of the Slave to see how compatible they are with the Hamilton?

:thumbup:



Silver Hawk said:


> More differences than I first realized; biggest difference are in the number of teeth per wheel. You may not see it in the photo above, but those Hamilton wheels on the right are significantly smaller than the Slava ones.


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## Silver Hawk

I've been working on the balance; several problems here which is why the watch is not working:


Open circuit coil

Broken balance


My aim is to try and get the watch running but keep the watch as authentic as possible. In fact, I'd rather keep it 100% Russian and have a non-running watch. However, I thought if it was just the balance staff, I'd see if a Hamilton 500 would fit...which of course turned out to the thin end of the wedge, a can of worms, etc, etc  ....

So first job was to see if I can repair the coil circuit with 50% (expensive!) silver conductive paint; no point in continuing with this balance if that cant be done. My success rate with this paint is no higher than 50%; it works great but you have to be able to see the breaks in the wire and you must be able to see copper rather than the varnish that covers the copper wire. In this case, I was lucky and it was only each end of the coil that had become detached from their anchors; a little bit of super glue to reattached coil to balance, a little bit of varnish scraping, a little bit of silver painting and we have 2.23K ohms  :



















Next, tackling the broken balance staff. So how close was a Hamilton 500 staff going to be to the Slava one? But need to address this crack across the centre of the balance first  :










Balance crack now repaired and the two balance staffs side-by-side. They are pretty similar actually; the overall lengths were the same and the various shoulders seemed to be in the same place:










Everything was looking good. The finger block lined up ok with the finger stop on the train plate and end clearance with balance c0ck etc was just right, so I fitted the Hamilton staff to the Slava balance and assembled the movement to check indexing... :fear:

I swung the balance and .... the indexing jewel jammed on the index wheel tooth!  :sadwalk:

The position of the indexing jewel on the roller table is in a slightly different position on the Hamilton version compared to the Slave roller table. So you cannot use a Slava index wheel with a Hamilton roller table. :taz:

So I'm going to have to fit the Slava roller table to the Hamilton balance staff and I've started that work. Luckily both roller tables came off their staffs ok without breaking the jewel or finger stop. The Hamilton balance staff has a slightly wider diameter, so the Slave roller table needed reaming out slightly.

If this is all gobbledygook, the last photo shows a detached roller table above the two staffs, with Slava staff on the left with broken pivot:










Tomorrow, I will re-assemble the Slave balance with the Hamilton staff and Slava roller table...I have high hopes...after all, its a new day .


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## DanM

> Slava and Hamilton wheels have same number of teeth...but Slava teeth are bigger and therefore wheels are bigger.


Because the movements are the same physical size, then if the wheels are bigger are the mating pinions smaller ? Or are the train parts in the Slava further apart than in the Hamilton version ?

And you appear to have parts from 2 Slavas - 3395 and 3411 ?


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## Silver Hawk

mel said:


> Dare I say Paul, the Slava looks better made than the Hamilton? in your side by sides. :yes:


Mel, wash your mouth out! 



Silver Hawk said:


> Tomorrow, I will re-assemble the Slave balance with the Hamilton staff and Slava roller table...I have high hopes...after all, its a new day .


And what a day! :yes:



DanM said:


> Or are the train parts in the Slava further apart than in the Hamilton version ?


Dan, yes they are.

It all went back together fine :sweatdrop:....but ran very fast with the Hamilton hairspring, so swopped it back to the Slava one once I'd opened up the collet a little to fit the slightly larger diameter Hamilton staff.

It is now running really well and keeping very good time . The only non-Slava parts are the balance staff (excluding roller table) and the battery clip: both from a Hamilton 500. I'm chuffed to bits on how this has turned out; I did not expect to get it up-and-running :no2: .

Final set of photographs of the finished watch....certainly my rarest electric watch.



















Crown out; watch not running:










Crown in; watch running and look at that balance go!:










And a wrist shot:


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## martinus_scriblerus

hamiltonelectric said:


> It looks like they did a remarkably detailed job of reverse-engineering the Hamilton movement. But I wonder what motivated them to change the wheel sizes? Maybe to more easily make them on existing machinery? That's a fascinating discovery, *I really regret that didn't turn up a few years ago so it could have been included in my book!*


*
There's always the 5th edition!!!*

And no doubt you have seen what your out of print book "Hamilton Wristwatches" is selling for. I'm grateful I bought an autographed copy from you while you still had stock.


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## Russ

Great thread and well done Paul. Apart from its rarity it's actually a looker both inside and out.


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## mel

Silver Hawk said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dare I say Paul, the Slava looks better made than the Hamilton? in your side by sides. :yes:
> 
> 
> 
> Mel, wash your mouth out!
> 
> Final set of photographs of the finished watch....certainly *my rarest electric watch.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crown in; watch running and look at that balance go!:
Click to expand...

I rest my case! It looks much "nicer" in gold finish! So does that make it [my rarest electric watch] (now) the world's rarest electric watch Paul?


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## dobra

Paul - what a saga, and a great learning curve for me. :smartass: Logical and with progression. I'll look around the IoW charity shops to find another....Great stuff!

Mike


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## Silver Hawk

Russ said:


> Great thread and well done Paul. Apart from its rarity it's actually a looker both inside and out.


Many thanks Russ...glad you like it.



mel said:


> So does that make it (now) the world's rarest electric watch Paul?


Got to be a candidate for *production *electric watch I think Mel. They are certainly unknown in the West, but they also seem very rare in the former Eastern Block countries judging by some posts on the Russian Section on WUS.



dobra said:


> I'll look around the IoW charity shops to find another....


Good luck with that Mike. There used to be an underground flea market half way down Union Street on the left hand side. If it's still there, I'd start there.


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## Morris Minor

Great work and great news that the watch is running well. Fascinating to see how you have solved the problems, and your photography is excellent!

Stephen


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## Chascomm

I need to stop reading these thrillers. It's bad for my heart.

Great work Paul. It's fantastic to see this piece of history running again.


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## Worzel

Paul,

Outstanding job that required faith, bottle and skill, I'm so pleased it has all worked out.

I would be interested to know under what circumstance you will wear it.

Alan


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## Silver Hawk

Worzel said:


> I would be interested to know under what circumstance you will wear it.
> 
> Alan


Wear it? :lol:

Anyone who knows me also knows I don't wear a watch.


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## Worzel

Ummm! if it's not you in the "wrist shot"







that means you let anyone wear it, so post it up for a while :grin:.


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## Chascomm

Paul, the write-up on your site looks fantastic!

I've mentioned it over on WUS and hopefully the word will filter through to the Russian language watch forums. This is the kind of discovery that deserves to be broadcast widely.


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## Vaurien

Great!

Very interesting :notworthy:


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## mel

Chascomm said:


> Paul, the write-up on your site looks fantastic!
> 
> I've mentioned it over on WUS and hopefully the word will filter through to the Russian language watch forums. This is the kind of discovery that deserves to be broadcast widely.


Quite right Chas - but that might put the price up if anyone comes across one :fear:


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## JTW

Paul, excellent piece of detective work and congratulations on a brilliant repair.

Threads like this make this forum great. :notworthy:


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## Silver Hawk

Chascomm said:


> I've mentioned it over on WUS and hopefully the word will filter through to the Russian language watch forums.


That did the trick  ...thanks Michael....results are pouring in.

NOS examples!

:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f10/slava-114chn-electric-new-variant-found-restored-530762-post3883276.html#post3883276


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## feenix

Silver Hawk said:


> That did the trick  ...thanks Michael....results are pouring in.


You ought to ask him for a copy of that catalogue Paul. Even if your Russian isn't to hot.


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## Chascomm

Silver Hawk said:


> Chascomm said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've mentioned it over on WUS and hopefully the word will filter through to the Russian language watch forums.
> 
> 
> 
> That did the trick  ...thanks Michael....results are pouring in.
> 
> NOS examples!
> 
> :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:
> 
> http://forums.watchuseek.com/f10/slava-114chn-electric-new-variant-found-restored-530762-post3883276.html#post3883276
Click to expand...

To quote Jimi: "If you look around you will see some minds being blown"


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## hamiltonelectric

Congratulations, Paul! That was some very good repair work. I'm glad to see you were able to bring it back to life. That is indeed an extremely rare piece and a wonderful discovery.


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## seiko6139

Fantastic Paul.. :thumbsup:


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## Silver Hawk

seiko6139 said:


> Fantastic Paul.. :thumbsup:


Long time (?years?), no see Ian....I hope you're well.


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