# Learning Devastating News About Breitling Movements



## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

I like many I others know think they know quite a lot about watches and which are good and which are bad etc etc I am a bit of a know it all and would spend hours talking to anyone who would listen to my great knowledge about the best watches in the world being PP,JLC and AP how the difference between top watches and also rans was that top flight watchmakers would make everything in house and other lesser ones would buy in movements and rebadge them, I was lead to believe and firmly believed that top watchmakers like Omega and my beloved Breitling made all their own movements I never thought to question this and would never have dreamed of doubting what a so called expert told me years ago that this was how it was.

I have since learned some devastating news Breitling donâ€™t make their own movements this has shocked me to the core and actually made me realise I probably donâ€™t know a 10th of what I thought I knew and I really know next to nothing, This has come as big shock on top of that although technically they do through association Omega donâ€™t make their won either, So how many more are like this.

Who does make their own watches completely in house I guess PP, AP and JLC do but as I said I could be wrong about that as well.I am starting to doubt everything I thought I knew about watches


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## ollyhock (Feb 9, 2009)

sonyman said:


> I like many I others know think they know quite a lot about watches and which are good and which are bad etc etc I am a bit of a know it all and would spend hours talking to anyone who would listen to my great knowledge about the best watches in the world being PP,JLC and AP how the difference between top watches and also rans was that top flight watchmakers would make everything in house and other lesser ones would buy in movements and rebadge them, I was lead to believe and firmly believed that top watchmakers like Omega and my beloved Breitling made all their own movements I never thought to question this and would never have dreamed of doubting what a so called expert told me years ago that this was how it was.
> 
> I have since learned some devastating news Breitling donâ€™t make their own movements this has shocked me to the core and actually made me realise I probably donâ€™t know a 10th of what I thought I knew and I really know next to nothing, This has come as big shock on top of that although technically they do through association Omega donâ€™t make their won either, So how many more are like this.
> 
> Who does make their own watches completely in house I guess PP, AP and JLC do but as I said I could be wrong about that as well.I am starting to doubt everything I thought I knew about watches


i said this in another link, youve got to be careful these watch houses give the impression there all in house,but few are.

having said that remember that skilled watch repaires are thin on the ground so a watch with an ETA movement which is tried and tested may not be a bad thing, there easily fixed and parts are readily available. with in house calibres your in their hands with parts and servicing, i admitt you feel a bit cheated when you realise your breitling has the same base movement as say a Â£300 hamilton but atleast its reliable and you dont have to worry about expensive servicing.


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## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

ollyhock said:


> sonyman said:
> 
> 
> > I like many I others know think they know quite a lot about watches and which are good and which are bad etc etc I am a bit of a know it all and would spend hours talking to anyone who would listen to my great knowledge about the best watches in the world being PP,JLC and AP how the difference between top watches and also rans was that top flight watchmakers would make everything in house and other lesser ones would buy in movements and rebadge them, I was lead to believe and firmly believed that top watchmakers like Omega and my beloved Breitling made all their own movements I never thought to question this and would never have dreamed of doubting what a so called expert told me years ago that this was how it was.
> ...


I agree and I know that your paying for the name and the ethos yada yada yada and the movement is secondary but it still grates somewhat as you say.


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## Livius de Balzac (Oct 6, 2006)

We would really like to see your belowed Breitlings and Omegas. All you have showed us are fake watches!

I bougth my Breitling nine years ago, I used it for eight years before it was time for service, it is very accurate, +/- 1 sec a day. Inhouse or not, the ETA 2892 is a very respected movement, one of the most reliable made today.

BTW the ETA movements used by Breitling are highly modified by Breitling with parts of the highest quality and the chronographe modules are made by Breitling (Kelek). No reason for disappointment!

I also have watches with inhouse movements, JLC and Minerva.


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## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

Livius de Balzac said:


> We would really like to see your belowed Breitlings and Omegas. All you have showed us are fake watches!
> 
> I bougth my Breitling nine years ago, I used it for eight years before it was time for service, it is very accurate, +/- 1 sec a day. Inhouse or not, the ETA 2892 is a very respected movement, one of the most reliable made today.
> 
> ...


when I bought tohse watches I was living with may parents well at least it was only for about 1 month in very 6-12 whilst I was in the Uk,Unfortunatley as I said I have now sold them all apart from my wifes Callistino which is in the trades section,I would love to have the dissposable income to buy lots of nice new watches but with a house 2 cars and 2 digs to run its very hard there is always something else that needs to be paid for we just had to spend over Â£1200 on one of our dogs and as he dmdged his eye and that may yet cost another Â£2000 for an operation,So whilst I would love to have another 5 Breitlings and an AP and a few others its just not the right time.

Can I also clear something up which come up time and again latley

I have owned lots of watches around 10 over the Â£1k mark I have owned 2 fakes so can we please get things into prospective ok.

I have included a few pics of the last watches I sold the Omega Seamaster Americs Cup And the two Aerospaces I sold a couple of years ago just before our wedding in Vegas :cry2:



















Sorry for the bad quality of this one


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## gregory (Feb 13, 2009)

It's *perspective* by the way. :tongue2:

And in my own opinion... you put things into *perspective* as far as I am concerned when you state you have owned two fakes but have sold them on.

A fake Swiss watch sold to someone is a crime against humanity and should be deemed fit for a trial in The Hague, punishable by death, by Mau Mau.

But that's just me being a blunt, dour, humourless Yorkshireman. :wink2:


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## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

gregory said:


> It's *perspective* by the way. :tongue2:
> 
> And in my own opinion... you put things into *perspective* as far as I am concerned when you state you have owned two fakes but have sold them on.
> 
> ...


You are right mate of course but I was sold them under the impression they were real,I sold them on stating they were Omega Style & Breitling style so I was honeest in my description I never lied the buyers bought them knowing full well what they were and I sold them for half what I paid.

And I dodnt want to dwell on the replica/clone/fake subject but I do have one last question,You only have to do a quick search of the internet to find loads of companies selling replica watches so If I can find them surely Omega,Breitling Rolex etc can find them WHY are they not putting in more effort to stop them,I have reported loads of fake Breitlings on ebay attempting to be sold "WITHOUT PAPERWORK" but obvious fakes in fact there is a fake Navitimer on there now as we speak and do they remove them no,So why are they allowing the sale of this stuff.Isnt it against the law?


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## gregory (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree. You are absolutely right.

Don't get me started about eBay though! So long as companies are pushing them, they will happily remove listings and ban people. So long as nobody is complaining, they will let the blind eye prevail and allow it as commission is good business... even on misery!!

Not all internet companies sell fakes. Some do... some don't.

If you are prepared to buy a named brand online, you can half expect to be taken for a ride. Sad but true. That applies to any type of goods.

I bought my Aquaracer online, though through Beaverbrooks. Having the paperwork and peace of mind is a good thing. Better to spend an extra Â£300 and pay the true RRP than save Â£300 and ending up with a bag of poo.


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## Livius de Balzac (Oct 6, 2006)

sonyman said:


> when I bought tohse watches I was living with may parents well at least it was only for about 1 month in very 6-12 whilst I was in the Uk,Unfortunatley as I said I have now sold them all apart from my wifes Callistino which is in the trades section,I would love to have the dissposable income to buy lots of nice new watches but with a house 2 cars and 2 digs to run its very hard there is always something else that needs to be paid for we just had to spend over Â£1200 on one of our dogs and as he dmdged his eye and that may yet cost another Â£2000 for an operation,So whilst I would love to have another 5 Breitlings and an AP and a few others its just not the right time.
> 
> Can I also clear something up which come up time and again latley
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your dog, hope the operation goes well. I had to pay Â£1000 for an operation on one of my dogs five years ago, and the dog died three months later. Then I lost my job and had to sell my car, but I kept my watches.


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## Jack83 (Aug 4, 2009)

Just read an interesting thread on wus about AP vs Hublot watches, and about the 'status' in horological terms of genuinely making your own movements vs copying an off the shelf 7750 for example...

so i searched this fine forum and came across this post from Sonyman raising the same point, particularly in relation to Breitlings and Omegas; SO what is the running order of high end watches?

I guess at the 'top' you have the truly in-house movements, AP, JLC and PP (what about Rolex?); then the highly-modified standard movement (Omega), then the 'one trick pony' of say Panerai (harsh?); then the standard movement with little variation (hublot, though i understand they're bringing out their own movement next year).

i'm not a snob on this at all (only recently introduced to the world of WIS) and yes it's all down to what you 'value' in a watch (so please no 'it's all subjective' replies - EVERYTHING is subjective!) BUT is there some sliding scale in this regard?


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## Openended (Nov 4, 2009)

When you buy Rolex/Breitling/Omega you are also paying for Rolex's name to be all over yachting events, major horse shows, major golfing events, Formula 1, to get Brad Pitt to wear them, James Bond, John Travolta, Uma Thurmen, in countless movies, sports stars, movie stars, artists, dancers, motorsport stars etc... the list goes on and on. Those deals are *SERIOUSLY *not cheap!!!

Rolex still makes its own movements though. The vast majority of manufacturers don't make their own movements. The ones that do (from the top of my head) - Seiko, Orient, Citizen, Rolex, a few luxury models, maybe some Chinese models (not sure on the specifics of the 2 latter).


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

JLC make their own engines. They also supply them to other high end watch companies (VC and AP IIRC amongst others) An Omega with a Lemania derived Chronograph movement or an ETA can fairly be described as in-house. Omega owned Tissot and there are Omega engined Tissots. One of the companies Omega ate was called Rayville. They had a 24 jewellled ladies Chronometer with date and an automatic complication. The neglected one from 1964 I'm currently rebuilding has been sitting on the analyser for the last three days: Timing error -1s/d, Beat error 0.4mS, Amplitude 318 degrees dial down

309 dial up. In my view that is high end.

The Valjoux 7750 has a good reputation but is really only a mid priced engine. Better than a Quartz but not a "proper" column wheel movement.

For that reason, I'd have to favour Omega over Breitling (which I regard as a catchpenny ripoff, whether it is or not) and tip my cap to Rolex, who make a very fine watch, even though I don't like it. But when it is my own money, JLC. Take the back off my '65 K881 and you can see imperfections. It was mass produced but finished by hand.


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

tom, what is your opinion of the omega seamaster quartz - as in the movement


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

It is only an opinion because I haven't owned one but here for what it is worth are my thoughts. I don't expect that quartz watches will often last for forty years, although I do know of early Heuer and Omega watches that have done. Accutrons seem plentiful, too but these were first generation electronic watches, expensive to make and not cheap to buy. Today, the value of a quartz movement is very low indeed. A Â£2,500 Raymond Weil I recently re engined had a Ronda movement costing Â£9. The battery change was around Â£70 so when it wore out the motor at six years old, it would cost a fortune to fix, of course. You're a watch nut. You know this stuff so it isn't new. I think you get more real watch nut value in a Seiko Monster than in any quartz. When you can pay Â£7,000 for a PP that has a Â£20 motor in it, you are either very ill informed or a foolish snob, and as one of those, I know what I am talking about! An Omega Quartz will hold its value better than most, have the right wrist cachet because it says Omega on the dial and it looks like the real thing in the way fakes don't.

Lots of people actually prefer quartz because they cannot wind or set a watch and are much, much too busy to do so. A majority in fact prefer batteries to springs which are tiny and delicate. I just think that the soul of a watch is in its spring but if you must buy quartz, the Omega is probably better than most but do find out where to get a new motor because you'll need a few over the next 40 years and they won't be cheap from Omega!


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## ANDI (Mar 14, 2006)

tomshep said:


> It is only an opinion because I haven't owned one but here for what it is worth are my thoughts. I don't expect that quartz watches will often last for forty years, although I do know of early Heuer and Omega watches that have done. Accutrons seem plentiful, too but these were first generation electronic watches, expensive to make and not cheap to buy. Today, the value of a quartz movement is very low indeed. A Â£2,500 Raymond Weil I recently re engined had a Ronda movement costing Â£9. The battery change was around Â£70 so when it wore out the motor at six years old, it would cost a fortune to fix, of course. You're a watch nut. You know this stuff so it isn't new. I think you get more real watch nut value in a Seiko Monster than in any quartz. When you can pay Â£7,000 for a PP that has a Â£20 motor in it, you are either very ill informed or a foolish snob, and as one of those, I know what I am talking about! An Omega Quartz will hold its value better than most, have the right wrist cachet because it says Omega on the dial and it looks like the real thing in the way fakes don't.
> 
> Lots of people actually prefer quartz because they cannot wind or set a watch and are much, much too busy to do so. A majority in fact prefer batteries to springs which are tiny and delicate. I just think that the soul of a watch is in its spring but if you must buy quartz, the Omega is probably better than most but do find out where to get a new motor because you'll need a few over the next 40 years and they won't be cheap from Omega!


 This is very true!!! i have two Omega Seamaster SMP 300 quartz.The black face model in the last 6months had to go to Omega for a full service and movement replacement which cost over Â£2oo;but the watch came back looking brand new,the case and bracelet superb.


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## Parabola (Aug 1, 2007)

I know a watch maker who is pretty disdainful of a lot of quartz movements, most of all Cartier. He says that he buys the movements in bulk for Â£5.50 each, and when the battery goes you may as well chuck away the 'movement' all together


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## PlanetOcean2 (Sep 25, 2009)

ETA are perfect movements, well know by watch repairers. No problem for me if it is or not an in-house movement.

Regards,

Engi


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

sonyman said:


> I have since learned some devastating news Breitling donâ€™t make their own movements ....


You mean that you didn't know that some 'low end' REAL Breitlings used *Miyota* quartz movements ?? :jawdrop: :rofl:


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

Which is why I reckon that they are ripoff merchants. I've nothing against quartz movements but they belong in cheap watches.

A good watch is a gift for a lifetime. There are no currently produced quartz analogue watches that fulfil that criterion.

The ignorance of the vast majority of the buying public is simply no excuse. It is not right to rip people off.


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

Parabola said:


> I know a watch maker who is pretty disdainful of a lot of quartz movements, most of all *Cartier*.





tomshep said:


> Which is why I reckon that they are ripoff merchants. I've nothing against quartz movements but they belong in cheap watches.


Something I learned fairly recently is that the range of Ferrari Formula chronograhs, produced by Cartier for Ferrari, in the late 1980's were built around Seiko 7A38 movements !! At the time the r.r.p.'s of the Seiko 7A38's was around Â£200-Â£250 (max), whereas the Cartier Ferrari watches started at Â£795 !!! Nowadays, you can pick up a Seiko 7A38 on eBay anything between Â£50-Â£150, whereas the uninformed Cartier owners (and dealers) are asking 1000-3000 Euros for their Ferrari Formula (powered by Seiko 7A38) chrono's ! Talk about snob value / badge engineering. 

By the way, if you search on www.ferrarichat.com , or the Seiko and Citizen watch forum, using 'Cartier + Ferrari', you'll see the couple of exposÃ©es that I've written recently.

Am also trying to help a friend, and Cartier Ferrari Formula owner, to repair his Cartier using Seiko 7A38 bits !! :rofl:


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## Andy the Squirrel (Aug 16, 2009)

OH MY GOD! :jawdrop:

imagine if Ferrari started putting Ford engines in their cars!


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

They started with many Fiat bits in them and the Dino engine was built almost entirely by Fiat because , at that time, Ferrari didn't have production capacity to homologate the engine.


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## josep (Dec 23, 2008)

Don't PP and AP use JLC movements?


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

at the end of the day......does it matter?


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

Yes, it does. As enthusiasts, we should know better than the usual high street punter who is taken for a ride. If our interest and education does not require us to seek out and buy into quality, then why are we enthusiasts in the first place?

The majority of people wouldn't know if I were wearing a fake. That doesn't make it right.

That same group would never have heard of a JLC but I have, so yes, it matters. Not just to me and the majority of people who want the best deal for their buck but also to the makers of quality products because if it didn't we'd fall into a sea of dross.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

tomshep said:


> Yes, it does. As enthusiasts, we should know better than the usual high street punter who is taken for a ride. If our interest and education does not require us to seek out and buy into quality, then why are we enthusiasts in the first place?


sorry....but i dont agree....two points....

if your gonna spend that amount of money on a watch, then do your homework.....if there not in house movt's then...deal with it 

the functionality of the watch is not going to be comprimised if its not in house.....as it happens, it could be that the ones that brightbling or tag produce are rubbish....in which case, there doing you a favour by putting one they've bought in B)

on another point.....is a rolex thats case was manafactured in china (as is more then likely where 90% of cases are) then would that put you off?


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

tomshep said:


> Yes, it does. As enthusiasts, we should know better than the usual high street punter who is taken for a ride. If our interest and education does not require us to seek out and buy into quality, then why are we enthusiasts in the first place?
> 
> The majority of people wouldn't know if I were wearing a fake. That doesn't make it right.
> 
> *That same group would never have heard of a JLC but I have, so yes, it matters. Not just to me and the majority of people who want the best deal for their buck but also to the makers of quality products because if it didn't we'd fall into a sea of dross.*


thats purely subjective.....how do you know that the non in house movt isn't better then one that breitling could produce?


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

Many watch companies bought ebauches and many still do but the best ones make their own engines. AS I said, an ETA in an Omega is in house but an expensive watch with a cheap movement is a ripoff because you are expecting to be buying craftsmanship and precision.Charging Â£2000 for a Raymond Weil does not make it a good watch, just as charging Â£35 for an Amfibia does not make it a bad one.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

tomshep said:


> Many watch companies bought ebauches and many still do but the best ones make their own engines. AS I said, an ETA in an Omega is in house but an expensive watch with a cheap movement is a ripoff because you are expecting to be buying craftsmanship and precision.Charging Â£2000 for a Raymond Weil does not make it a good watch, just as charging Â£35 for an Amfibia does not make it a bad one.


i hear what your saying....but...if someone wants to pay Â£2000 for a brietbling, then so what? no watch is worth that much.......your buying into the myth that is brightbling or omega/rolex/tag...ect....

and if you...as a collecter of watches dont like whats going inside it...then dont buy it? its that simple aint it?

and who says that inhouse movts are the best?

myself....i would much prefer to have a seiko 7s26 movt inside any watch....or better still, a seiko quartz....they cost literally nothing to replace, and are accurate...im wearing a 25 year old 6309 thats not long come back from a service, and has only lost 4 seconds since in a week.....ive had ETA's that i would be lucky to get that a day.....

its all relative though isn't it?


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

> i hear what your saying....but...if someone wants to pay Â£2000 for a brietbling, then so what? no watch is worth that much.......your buying into the myth that is brightbling or omega/rolex/tag...ect....


Exactly, your not buying a watch, your buying the marketing 'lifestyle'

Any watch that costs more than a few quid is inherently poor value.....

What you find comfortable spending on your watch is up to you.....

There is no conspiracy on this... Most luxury goods are not priced in relation to the cost of their constituent parts...


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

jasonm said:


> > i hear what your saying....but...if someone wants to pay Â£2000 for a brietbling, then so what? no watch is worth that much.......your buying into the myth that is brightbling or omega/rolex/tag...ect....
> 
> 
> Exactly, your not buying a watch, your buying the marketing 'lifestyle'
> ...


:yes:


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## Openended (Nov 4, 2009)

Watches, for the most part, are jewellery and made for irrational people (particularly luxury or high-end watches). A lot of it is about appearance although many highly irrational traits are part of the whole thing ("history" aka marketing, marketing, brand image, associations etc). Design prowess plays some part but most rich people buy Rolex/Omega etc because they think they are getting something amazing when in fact if they were very well informed and truely rational they would probably not think so to the same extent. Since most of luxury brand's customers are rich uninformed people I frame it this way and not from the collector's perspetive.

I don't own any luxury brands but I've handled an Omega Seamaster in the shop and it was quite nice I must admit but not really worth the Â£000s it costed in my opinion. Quality is not directly related to price after you get up to a certain class of watch, plus you really are paying a lot for the image behind it all (if that's important for you then great, I don't mind that). Watch companies do make a lot of effort to keep their appearances high and one could argue that's value-add in itself but it's really a case of personal opinion.

I am attracted to the craftsmanship and design of many luxury watches but I have a hard time justifying the price sometimes. Sometimes design is worth paying for, the vast majority of us cares about appearance at some level I think. It's totally a personal thing. I actually think the rich are buying into the marketing and, actually, even if they knew a different alternative would give them better value for money, they probably still would go for the luxury brand because it's the experience and emotional connection which gets their cash on the table.

Also bear in mind that Â£4k is to some people what is to others is a bag of fish and chip. Have to put that it in perspective somehow.


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## Openended (Nov 4, 2009)

Last point. The whole point of marketing is to keep consumers uninformed, misguided, irrational and in a position to buy the company's product (part of misguidedness). You can apply this to almost any corporation. Watches are no different, especially luxury watches where there's more money to be made!

I have a great article on the luxury watch brands and what/how they spend on marketing. It's truely amazing the lengths at which they go to, you would never have believed it. Maybe I can share it but I think I need moderator's approval first (it's a complicated one).


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