# Military Black Monster??!!



## hippo

Load of bull, right??

Epray 190038404936


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## JoT

Seems unlikley - maybe Foggy will drop in and shed some light on it?


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## murph

With day and date?


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## PhilM

Great story, but I think it's a load of bull


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## pauluspaolo

Must admit that I'd seen that on E**y too & thought what a load of old bollox. My guess is that someone's modified the caseback & stamped the broadarrow/serial numbers into it
















Of course I'm happy to be proved wrong! Seiko's were issued to the armed forces so it's possible I suppose
















If it is true then it's the first time (in many years of scouring the web for Seiko information) that I've ever heard of the black monster being tested/used by the British military!?!? Personally I think someone's trying to pull a fast one


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## bill

He also seems to be selling some other 'rare' watches........

I'vs got access to a pantograph (? is that what its called), I might discover some rare Casio military issues watches...


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## murph

bill said:


> He also seems to be selling some other 'rare' watches........
> 
> I'vs got access to a pantograph (? is that what its called), I might discover some rare Casio military issues watches...


It's years since I've seen one of them. Have you ever tried using it on a watch? If it doesn't work you could always have a bash at building your own computer controlled milling/engraving machine, have you seen some of the homemade devices on the net?

You'd soon recoup the cost of building one on ebay.


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## Foggy

> With day and date?


Why not ? The CWC "SBS" is a genuine issued watch with day date.

Re the Seiko. I'm open minded on this one. It's a lot of work to do to make this fake for not a great return over a normal monster. Grinding the back markings off, mil marking it, and then producing the very convincing wear from a NATO strap.

The MOD do trial watches in small numbers. Seamaster Pro's are known to be out there in limited numbers, same with Citizen Aqualands. All with NSN's. Then there are those watches that get trialled but not marked.

For example who knew that the MOD trialled Traser ? I didn't until I bought one that was "rescued" from destruction after leaving MOD stores with some RAF Seiko's afew years back (watches are generally smashed up and disposed of, rather than being sold, unless somebody inside rescues them














)

So an issued Monster ? Like I say, I'm open minded..........

Cheers

Foggy


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## murph

Foggy said:


> With day and date?
> 
> 
> 
> Why not ? The CWC "SBS" is a genuine issued watch with day date.
> 
> Re the Seiko. I'm open minded on this one. It's a lot of work to do to make this fake for not a great return over a normal monster. Grinding the back markings off, mil marking it, and then producing the very convincing wear from a NATO strap.
> 
> The MOD do trial watches in small numbers. Seamaster Pro's are known to be out there in limited numbers, same with Citizen Aqualands. All with NSN's. Then there are those watches that get trialled but not marked.
> 
> For example who knew that the MOD trialled Traser ? I didn't until I bought one that was "rescued" from destruction after leaving MOD stores with some RAF Seiko's afew years back (watches are generally smashed up and disposed of, rather than being sold, unless somebody inside rescues them
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> So an issued Monster ? Like I say, I'm open minded..........
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> Cheers
> 
> Foggy
Click to expand...

Yes I think I do remember seeing that CWC not too long ago now that you've reminded me, thanks and my bad. Just so used to military watches without the day.

But would you be willing to risk the money on it? I suppose if you don't drop a lot of cash on it and don't really care if it's a real issue it would certainly be worth buying, if you like it. After all people do spend money customising or making military hybrid/homage watches.


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## Foggy

> I suppose if you don't drop a lot of cash on it and don't really care if it's a real issue it would certainly be worth buying


I've given reasons why I'm not discounting the possibility of it being genuine issue.

What are your reasons for thinking it's definitely NOT issue ?

In quite a few years of collecting mil issue watches, one thing I have learnt is that there's always more to learn 

Cheers

Foggy


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## murph

Foggy said:


> I suppose if you don't drop a lot of cash on it and don't really care if it's a real issue it would certainly be worth buying
> 
> 
> 
> I've given reasons why I'm not discounting the possibility of it being genuine issue.
> 
> What are your reasons for thinking it's definitely NOT issue ?
> 
> In quite a few years of collecting mil issue watches, one thing I have learnt is that there's always more to learn
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Foggy
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to imply that. I was just saying if you liked it and didn't care too much either way i.e. IF it turned out it wasn't a real issue you wouldn't be upset ...

I only wondered if you, who obviously collects military issues and have considerable knowledge in the field, thought it was actually worth dropping money on it. In other words I was just asking HOW likely you thought it was that it was a genuine issue but then I suppose you'd want to speak to the seller before deciding.

I wasn't refuting your suggestions at all and I hope you didn't feel I was. I hope I've cleared my previous statement up now.


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## Foggy

> I wasn't refuting your suggestions at all and I hope you didn't feel I was


I know, Murph  There's been a lot of talk about this watch, across a number of fora, with most people suggesting it's a fake. However, nobody is giving good reasons for this, other than they haven't heard of, or seen, one before. That's not conclusive for me











> I only wondered if you, who obviously collects military issues and have considerable knowledge in the field, thought it was actually worth dropping money on it.


Well, at the starting price, it's Â£85 more than a regular BM, so it's an Â£85 gamble. If it turns out it is a limited number issued piece, and one can prove it, then that's probably not a bad investment. If it's not, then it's Â£85 or so overpriced 

Either way, it's not for me as I prefer vintage mil watches.

I have spoken to the seller and he said



> A NUMBER OF WATCHES INCLUDING SEIKO, TRASER ,OMEGA SEAMASTER ARE USED BY SPECIAL FORCES IN LIMITED NUMBERS.THIS WATCH CAME INTO MY HANDS FROM A NEIBOUR WHO IS EX SPECIAL FORCES HERE IN HEREFORD


Ok, the Hereford connection may seem far fetched and easy to make up, but his comments about Omega and Traser are spot on, so there's a chance that he does know what he is talking about and he really did get it that way. The only error he makes in the listing is suggesting that the 99 stands for issue year. That is actually the NATo country code for UK. The watch lacks a serial number and issue year, which doesn't particularly surprise me if it was only a trial piece.

Over time, if genuine, other examples will no doubt materialise and/or information will come out from military sources. I do have a currently serving friend who would be able to find out more about this watch, but he is currently serving abroad in one of the hot-spots







I'll ask him on his return if he has heard about a trial of BM's by the UK Forces.

In the meantime, I'll keep my eyes open for other examples. I'd like to see one in person to further clarify my thoughts on them. Currently I'd say there is a more than 50% chance that the markings are genuine.

Cheers

Foggy


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## scottishcammy

Special Forces haven't been based in Hereford for years.


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## murph

If they were intended for the SBS wouldn't they have been trialled by them or a Marine unit. In Dorset etc.?


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## Foggy

> Special Forces haven't been based in Hereford for years


Indeed, but who said they were ? Credenhil isn't exactly a million miles away from Hereford.



> If they were intended for the SBS wouldn't they have been trialled by them or a Marine unit. In Dorset etc.?


If they were intended for SBS, maybe, but who said they were ?

There are more questions than answers, but nobody has come up with conclusive evidence that this watch isn't a mil issued one. Until that happens, I remain open minded 

Edit : Auction now ended with three bidders. None look like they're amateurs. Second highest bidder recently bought this.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=290007445016

If the Seiko turns out to be genuine issue, as I said in a previous post, could be a decent investment. I remember when I first turned up a few ex-issue CWC "SBS" watches a few years back. There were a fair number of doubters about them being genuine issue until a few more appeared followed by reliable information on numbers held in MOD stores. Suddenly, everyone wanted one then









Cheers

Foggy


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## Griff

The bottom pic shows a CWC, and I would conclude that 0552/6645 99 is therefore a CWC marking and finally conclude the so called Black Monster military shown top is a fake









If I am correct, and I think this is so, the originator of the "military" BM should be separated from his gonads!!!
















The top pic also shows a fairly wide band sloping at an angle of like \ where the case back looks like it might have been ground/filed, and later maybe buffed up.

It is a different shade of the rest of the case back.

In any case...............it doesn't give out the right vibes


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## JoT

Griff I think thise are just the standard NATO numbers and not specific to CWC


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## raketakat

Military watches are a minefield







.


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## Griff

JoT said:


> Griff I think thise are just the standard NATO numbers and not specific to CWC


I take your point John, but that case back looks like it may have been ground/filed or linished, and then buffed up

Can someone do a search on the number at the bottom of the case!!?


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## pauluspaolo

I think the band across the back of the watch, that Griff is referring to, are the marks made by a Nato strap - I've had a number of stainless steel watches that have been marked in this way. I don't think the marks have been made by a milling machine/lathe.

Interesting thread


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## Griff

Wouldn't the watch also have had fixed bars?



pauluspaolo said:


> I think the band across the back of the watch, that Griff is referring to, are the marks made by a Nato strap - I've had a number of stainless steel watches that have been marked in this way. I don't think the marks have been made by a milling machine/lathe.
> 
> Interesting thread


Yes, I think you are correct on that.

I wouldn't like to put any money on it now after all

Surely that number on the bottom can be traced??


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## pauluspaolo

Griff said:


> Wouldn't the watch also have had fixed bars?


You'd have thought so but maybe not if it's a trial piece only. The CWC pictured doesn't appear to have fixed bars either


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## scottishcammy

Foggy said:


> Special Forces haven't been based in Hereford for years
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> Indeed, but who said they were ? Credenhil isn't exactly a million miles away from Hereford.
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> I've spoken to a very close member of my family who spent many years in the special forces. I would print his comment here, but it's not very 'PC'! His initial reaction was that it was very funny. I'll miss out what the next thing he said was, but the last 'portion' of his coments were that "That sort of thing just doesn't happen, these guys are quiet, secretive people who don't sell or give away give away 'guci' kit, and most certainly would not allow some 'spangle' to put it up for auction". His advice is that if you see an auction which mentions 'SAS' or 'SBS' or 'special forces' is to 'sack it' as he put it!
Click to expand...


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## JoT

It never ceases to amaze me how military watches arouse such passion


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## Griff

scottishcammy said:


> Foggy said:
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> Special Forces haven't been based in Hereford for years
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> Indeed, but who said they were ? Credenhil isn't exactly a million miles away from Hereford.
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> I've spoken to a very close member of my family who spent many years in the special forces. I would print his comment here, but it's not very 'PC'! His initial reaction was that it was very funny. I'll miss out what the next thing he said was, but the last 'portion' of his coments were that "That sort of thing just doesn't happen, these guys are quiet, secretive people who don't sell or give away give away 'guci' kit, and most certainly would not allow some 'spangle' to put it up for auction". His advice is that if you see an auction which mentions 'SAS' or 'SBS' or 'special forces' is to 'sack it' as he put it!
> 
> Click to expand...
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> Nice one!!
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> JoT said:
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> It never ceases to amaze me how military watches arouse such passion
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> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep...............have to agree with that.
Click to expand...


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## raketakat

scottishcammy said:


> I would print his comment here, but it's not very 'PC'!


Oh, go on Cammy







.

What's a "spangle" apart from a boiled sweet







?


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## mach 0.0013137

Griff said:


> JoT said:
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> It never ceases to amaze me how military watches arouse such passion
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> Yep...............have to agree with that.
Click to expand...









*G & J agreeing on something!!! *
















I`d put that down in my diary, if I owned one









Actually I have seen this happen before but you`ve got to admit it is rare


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## Griff

Steady now.........steady!!


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## scottishcammy

raketakat said:


> scottishcammy said:
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> I would print his comment here, but it's not very 'PC'!
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> Oh, go on Cammy
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> What's a "spangle" apart from a boiled sweet
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Click to expand...

I think it's common army parlance for an ********!


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## Foggy

> I've spoken to a very close member of my family who spent many years in the special forces. I would print his comment here, but it's not very 'PC'! His initial reaction was that it was very funny. I'll miss out what the next thing he said was, but the last 'portion' of his coments were that "That sort of thing just doesn't happen, these guys are quiet, secretive people who don't sell or give away give away 'guci' kit, and most certainly would not allow some 'spangle' to put it up for auction". His advice is that if you see an auction which mentions 'SAS' or 'SBS' or 'special forces' is to 'sack it' as he put it!


That's one persons view only. I happen to know that ex-special forces members have been known to sell off items they were issued with - military Rolex Subs included.

What you say above is still not enough evidence for me to prove that the Seiko is definitely not legit.



> The bottom pic shows a CWC, and I would conclude that 0552/6645 99 is therefore a CWC marking and finally conclude the so called Black Monster military shown top is a fake


Clearly lacking in knowledge as all those numbers are telling us are Royal Navy, UK issue. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the brand of watch.



> The top pic also shows a fairly wide band sloping at an angle of like \ where the case back looks like it might have been ground/filed, and later maybe buffed up.
> 
> It is a different shade of the rest of the case back.
> 
> In any case...............it doesn't give out the right vibes


The caseback has clearly been sterilised before having the NATO markings applied. That part is not, and never was, in doubt. Otherwise we'd be seeing the Seiko script and wave logo etc. There's no other way the NATO markings could have been applied. Seems an awful lot of work to create a fake.

Still open minded. Go on experts, give us some concrete evidence which guarantess it's not kosher (I've never guaranteed it is) 

Cheers

Foggy


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## Griff

> Clearly lacking in knowledge as all those numbers are telling us are Royal Navy, UK issue. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the brand of watch.


Ferk me!!









I acknowledged Jots comment about that!!!

If you are the oracle on military watches why dont you trace the bottom number on the case and prove whether it is a fake or not and enrich us with the proof


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## scottishcammy

Foggy said:


> _I've spoken to a very close member of my family who spent many years in the special forces. I would print his comment here, but it's not very 'PC'! His initial reaction was that it was very funny. I'll miss out what the next thing he said was, but the last 'portion' of his coments were that "That sort of thing just doesn't happen, these guys are quiet, secretive people who don't sell or give away give away 'guci' kit, and most certainly would not allow some 'spangle' to put it up for auction". His advice is that if you see an auction which mentions 'SAS' or 'SBS' or 'special forces' is to 'sack it' as he put it!_
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> _That's one persons view only. I happen to know that ex-special forces members have been known to sell off items they were issued with - military Rolex Subs included._
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> _What you say above is still not enough evidence for me to prove that the Seiko is definitely not legit._
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> _Agreed Foggy, it isn't enough to guarantee it, and it is his view. However, he only left quite recently and still keeps in touch with many serving members. He also reads this forum. The last time I spoke to him was today and he still reckons, and on having spoken to other ex & serving members (though admitedly only a few in this short space of time) he still reckons it's a no go. He wasn't in the SBS, but they still did a lot of river / water work and has friends in the marines & SBS (though he's made me promise I would point out that they are ***** apparently!!!
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> ) I understand that isn't concrete, but, all things considered, that's as close to the horses mouth as I'll ever get and that's enough for me!_
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> _Oh aye, h also says if he's proved wrong and is making a *unt of himself....he'll simply blame me and absolve himself of all blame!_
Click to expand...


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## Foggy

> Ferk me!!
> 
> I acknowledged Jots comment about that!!!
> 
> If you are the oracle on military watches why dont you trace the bottom number on the case and prove whether it is a fake or not and enrich us with the proof


If you read my earlier posts, you'll see that I have promised to find out more evidence when my friend returns from active duty abroad.

I don't remember saying I was an oracle on military watches. I said I was open minded. It's you shouting fake, based on unsound "knowledge".

But then again I knew you'd jump in where the opportunity arose.

You've clearly made your minds up, so I'll leave it at that. I didn't post my thoughts to get dragged in to a slanging match.

Over and out....

Cheers

Foggy


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## raketakat

scottishcammy said:


> raketakat said:
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> scottishcammy said:
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> I would print his comment here, but it's not very 'PC'!
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> Oh, go on Cammy
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> What's a "spangle" apart from a boiled sweet
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> Click to expand...
> 
> I think it's common army parlance for an ********!
Click to expand...

I often have to refer to the "Scottish Vernacular Dictionary" when translating your posts into English







 .

It says "someone who is not the full shilling, simple-minded"







.

That probably translates into "an ********" in army lingo though







.


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## scottishcammy

raketakat said:


> scottishcammy said:
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> raketakat said:
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> scottishcammy said:
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> I would print his comment here, but it's not very 'PC'!
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> Oh, go on Cammy
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> What's a "spangle" apart from a boiled sweet
> 
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> ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think it's common army parlance for an ********!
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> Click to expand...
> 
> I often have to refer to the "Scottish Vernacular Dictionary" when translating your posts into English
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> It says "someone who is not the full shilling, simple-minded"
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> That probably translates into "an ********" in army lingo though
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Click to expand...























You do make me laugh Iain!


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## Silver Hawk

JoT said:


> Seems unlikely - maybe Foggy will drop in and shed some light on it?


Interesting thread.









I'd remind some that we asked Foggy to drop in and give us the benefit of his expert knowledge in this area.

Why are people not taking it?

Let us know if you find out more Ian (Foggy).


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## scottishcammy

Foggy said:


> Ferk me!!
> 
> I acknowledged Jots comment about that!!!
> 
> If you are the oracle on military watches why dont you trace the bottom number on the case and prove whether it is a fake or not and enrich us with the proof
> 
> 
> 
> If you read my earlier posts, you'll see that I have promised to find out more evidence when my friend returns from active duty abroad.
> 
> I don't remember saying I was an oracle on military watches. I said I was open minded. It's you shouting fake, based on unsound "knowledge".
> 
> But then again I knew you'd jump in where the opportunity arose.
> 
> You've clearly made your minds up, so I'll leave it at that. I didn't post my thoughts to get dragged in to a slanging match.
> 
> Over and out....
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Foggy
Click to expand...

Eh?







I'm confused Foggy. Why so sensitive? I didin't get the feeling this was a slanging match at all! I have no idea what the watch is (as I'm honestly clueless about such things!) I thought we were all just havering?...._(Iain: Havering: According to Chambers Concise Scots Dictionary havering or haivering means to talk in a foolish or trivial way, speak nonsense or make a fuss about nothing, make a pretence of being busy.) _


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## Griff

Perhaps he will return after taking a lie down and an aspirin


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## Foggy

> Eh? I'm confused Foggy. Why so sensitive? I didin't get the feeling this was a slanging match at all


Not you, Cammy. You're sound 

Cheers

Foggy


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## hippo

WOW









Wish I'd not asked the question now









Sorry!!!


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## Griff

I think it is me he has the knife in for.

Doesn't like me or my northern humour.

Ah well.................I'll survive!!!









I'd still like to see proof that the watch is genuine

From a military point of view I think a BM would be a bollocks of a choice, but I have no proof of coarse


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## murph

scottishcammy said:


> Eh?
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> I'm confused Foggy. Why so sensitive? I didin't get the feeling this was a slanging match at all! I have no idea what the watch is (as I'm honestly clueless about such things!) I thought we were all just havering?...._(Iain: Havering: According to Chambers Concise Scots Dictionary havering or haivering means to talk in a foolish or trivial way, speak nonsense or make a fuss about nothing, make a pretence of being busy.) _


Strange, havering to me, and at least in this locality I think, is more in the way of telling porkies.









At the very least it's speaking rubbish so I wouldn't accuse people of havering unless you were ready to face the consequences when you venture further north into the wilds. 

Hope I'm not to blame for starting to upset Foggy.


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## Griff

> Hope I'm not to blame for starting to upset Foggy.


Of course not. I've indicated it will be me.

Most of us can have a ding donging good debate and argument, and take it in our stride and express strong views, and opinions, etc etc.

One or two, who tend to be the ones that flounce off, like a certain other, are too sensitive to be able to stand the heat in the kitchen.

If I flounced off every time someone upset me I'd be a dithering wreck, but I like to think I am made of sterner stuff!!


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## Foggy

> Hope I'm not to blame for starting to upset Foggy


Of course not, Murph 

The problem is when certain "individuals" speak up and know nothing about the subject, but think they do. This applies to only one individual in this thread - they know who they are, why they do it, and why they've been doing it for years (jumping on posts I make, just to contradict). They call it "a ding donging good debate and argument". I call it spouting off bollocks just for the sake of it







Myself, if I don't know anything about a subject, I keep my mouth shut. Nothing to do with being sensitive, just being smart.

Everyone else in the thread makes decent contributions, in a polite manner - just how a decent discussion forum should be.

As for the Seiko, still open minded







I'll carry on my research and add it to my web-page as and when I find out more. For those genuinely interested, it will be added to my Seiko military article on my website. Incidentally, another article I've written on British Issue Dive watches will also be updated and added at some point.

http://uk.geocities.com/[email protected]/

Cheers all

Foggy


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## Stan

I found this thread interesting (relative to the watch in question). The MoD will need to procure samples of equipment to evaluate the suitability of it before it places contracts. Not every requirement will have a dstan in place and modified civilian items are often used to fill gaps (anyone remember seeing Morris 1000s in various forms knocking about?).

It seems more than possible that the MoD will have evaluated quite a few watches that were never procured in significant numbers but those watches would have been given a broad arrow and other relevant markings to show that they were Crown property.

Iâ€™d like to see some of the other kit (not just watches) that the MoD has evaluated for forces use over the years, that might prove very interesting.


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## pg tips

the thing that strikes me is the relative ease to make an extra Â£100 or so. Get a plain back that will fit, engrave a few numbers and Bob's your uncle. I bet dozens of copies will soon be appearing!


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## raketakat

I've never seen those Nato strap corrugations on one of my watches. I must not wear them hard enough







.


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## Foggy

> I've never seen those Nato strap corrugations on one of my watches. I must not wear them hard enough


That's an interesting point, and one that leads me to believe the watch may indeed be genuine.

Here are 3 CWC's that show some wear from standard G10 issued straps.










However, special forces tend to use their own made straps, rather than the normal G10 strap. They are made from webbing, hand made by the individuals. Tougher and thicker, and much coarser in material - just the thing that is likely to cause this degree of wear. I have one that was gifted to me by a serving member of HM forces.

Cheers

Foggy


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## Griff

Oh eck.

I will have to go to the back of the class!!

I hope you other gentlemen can put up with some more bollocks then!









I think Cammy's posts on the military side of things were interesting

Just lets see if there is any proof that the watch is genuine or not.


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## Foggy

Here are some pics of the strap I obtained from a currently serving member of the armed forces who works with special forces.














































Points to note.

1) The thickness of the strap.

2) The coarseness of the strap.

3) Stitched construction.

4) Heat welded holes and ends.

5) The use of Seiko hardware.

Cheers

Foggy


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## raketakat

Griff said:


> Oh eck.
> 
> I will have to go to the back of the class!!


If it wasn't beneath your age and dignity you'd be sent to the naughty step














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Foggy said:


> Here are some pics of the strap I obtained from a currently serving member of the armed forces who works with special forces.










They are handy with a needle and thread these chaps.


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## Griff

> If it wasn't beneath your age and dignity you'd be sent to the naughty step












I await any proof about the watch with interest, but has anyone seen or known of a military man with a BM as a field watch?

A watch with very high lume doesn't seem like a good idea to me for soldiering


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## Foggy

> A watch with very high lume doesn't seem like a good idea to me for soldiering


Agreed, but check out what most wear. G-Shocks and other CBP's. Both with highly lit dsiplays and beeping noises (which can be turned off, but also inadvertantly turned back on again). Both dead giveaways for a sniper.

The Omega SMP also has pretty good lume, but that hasn't stopped special forces recently issuing them in small numbers.

Cheers

Foggy


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## mycroft

I've been following this thread with great interest. I have nothing whatever to add to the debate about whether or not the specific watch in question is genuine, but I am a BM owner and the lume is really quite exceptional on it. If I was wearing one in a military environjment I definitely think I'd be worried about someone blowing my left hand off







!

Afternoon Ian...

*Simon*


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## mach 0.0013137

Foggy said:


> Here are some pics of the strap I obtained from a currently serving member of the armed forces who works with special forces.
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> Cheers
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> Foggy


I do like that strap, if only some one would make them comercially


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## bry1975

Note with this Special forces OM  , The caseback is incorrect. Perhaps a special reason for it


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## Foggy

Here are the thoughts of my currently serving friend who is home on leave from Afghanistan.



> It may well be genuine. It looks right enough and even special purchase and trials items can be given an NSN/Part Number simply for accounting purposes.
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> Would UKSF have trialled this watch? Probably they try out most things, some cheap and a bit naff others remarkable and expensive. They have the budget to do so and a requirement for kit that is out of the ordinary.
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> Some Royals from the SBS were quite excited enough about the Seiko Blackmonster, seen here on MWR, to ask me if I could see if they could obtained in quantity with a PVD case, but this was not practical.
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> I dont know anything specific about this particular watch and its trial and/or issue but I would lean towards it being genuine.


Still not proof, I know, but an opinion I respect.

Cheers

Foggy


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## jasonm

Thanks Foggy


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