# What A Difference A Lapping Machine Can Make!



## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

My watchmaker has recently acquired a lapping machine (actually he's been waiting for it for over two years now) and after sorting out the electrics - as they require 3 phase wiring - finally got it up and running last week.

Here's a very quick demonstration of the what it can do on a case back. This is my old Seiko 6138-3002 bought of ebay many years ago. The dial, handset and case are in good order but some muppet had tried disguising some tool slip marks by sand or bead blasting the outer case back, very badly :wallbash:

*Before*




























*After*




























Hopefully my pics demonstrate quite a transformation, there's no other way of attaining this highly polished and consistent finish.

He also showed me some cases he'd been practicing on with multiple case finished i.e. starburst graining, horizontal and vertical graining and well as highly polished finishes like the example above. They were very impressive and transformed somewhat battered cases back to pretty much original factory finish.

Anyway just thought a few here might be interesting to see a little of a lapping machines capabilities. I'm hoping to be able to see then machine in action, take a few snaps and do a write up.

Cheers,

Gary


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## kevkojak (May 14, 2009)

That is an incredible result! Always fun having a new toy to play with as well. 

I have loads of chewed up case-backs (not my own doing!) so it's nice to see hope is not lost!

Is this a fairly cheap fix Gary?


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

kevkojak said:


> That is an incredible result! Always fun having a new toy to play with as well.
> 
> I have loads of chewed up case-backs (not my own doing!) so it's nice to see hope is not lost!
> 
> Is this a fairly cheap fix Gary?


I think he might only offer full case refinishing with a service as he doesn't want to get into potential disputes with people claiming the movement was working perfectly before it was removed for a case refinish etc, etc. Plus being a perfectionist he'd hate to make a watch look factory fresh knowing full well that the innards were fubar.

How he'd feel about refinishing just case backs I've no idea but I can ask if you'd like Kev.

Cheers,

Gary


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## kevkojak (May 14, 2009)

It's Ok Gary - I'm with you actually, all or nothing. If you'd like to PM me what he charges for a service and case re-finish though I'd be quite interested.


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Sent you a PM Kev.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Aid1987 (Mar 9, 2012)

That looks much better, well done!


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## Mr Blond (Jan 19, 2012)

Great results


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

A quick update. I managed to get hold of one of the first cases that my watch guy refinished. This one has a re-lapped starburst finish and polished shoulders and sides. As you'll see it's not quite 100% perfect but then it's not half bad either, pretty impressive for a first attempt imho.





















































Hopefully I'll be able to update this thread with some before and after pics fairly soon.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Agent orange said:


> I'm hoping to be able to see then machine in action, take a few snaps and do a write up.


Yes please Gary...would love to see the machinery in action.


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## foztex (Nov 6, 2005)

Thanks Gary,

very interesting, that starburst grain is spot on. A lapping machine is on my wish list, I'm currently making a watchcase on my mill and lathe and would love to do a starburst finish. I've a few ideas using what I've got but there is no substitute for the correct tool.

Andy


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## pugster (Nov 22, 2004)

paul i thought you had a setup for refinishing sunburst patts? , or you had tried it.


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## Stuart Davies (Jan 13, 2008)

Shame I never held onto that Seiko Helmet. It was moved on as I couldn't fathom out a way to get it re-brushed from the mirror-perfect over polishing it had recieved from the previous owner. Starburst would have been quite cool.

My JLC might be a contender once your man has had more practice on other peoples watches  ...it has a tiny nick in what would otherwise be a perfect case.

Thanks Gary.


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## JudgeBaxter (Sep 18, 2009)

The results these guys used to produce by hand were pretty impressive, so once they have mastered this new machine it should be a great alternative to Bienne for a full monty spruce up on your vintage treasures.

Gary - if your man wants any more practice samples to work on, drop me a PM via the other site (not sure I can get them via here as I'm not on 50 posts yet) - my username is the same. I was planning a trip over there next week anyway to drop a watch in for a service and to get a couple of bracelets done, but if he wants some additional bits to "have a go on" with no obligation etc., then I have a few things he could experiment with if he wants to.

Rgds,

Dave.


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

I'm nipping over to see him in a bit Dave so I'll ask if he needs anymore cases to practice on.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Mr Cracker (Nov 25, 2010)

Wow what a great result


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## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

Both look excellent, would love to see pics of the action


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## tixntox (Jul 17, 2009)

I think that we could keep this guy in business for months! Great effects. :yes: :thumbup:

Mike


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

A quick update with a few pics of the lapping machine. In some ways there's not a lot to it really, the main box has a motor which feeds three discs via belts. However it's meticulously engineered and the tool which holds the watch case and presents it to the discs is fantastic, I don't think I've ever encountered a more fluid rotation, I'm pretty sure it's oil filled to achieve such a smooth turn.

*The main machine*










After you've worked out the precise angle that you want you place the piece that hold the watch case (in the hand on the pic) on rails and then present the case to discs.

*The discs*










Three discs each for different grades of finish

*The case holder*




























The part on the far left is the chuck (it's probably not called that but it'll do for now) that holds the watch case. There's a pretty large collection of different designs and sizes for different cases, my watchmaker was very lucky to get the complete set along with the lapping machine.

Anyway a very quick overview for those that are interested. I still plan to do a more in-depth write up on this and show the machine in operation, these were taken very quickly on Saturday morning. Hopefully it gives a pretty good idea of what a lapping machine is like though.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Another example of what a lapping machine can do, this time with before and after pics. The watch was bought as a donor as I needed a Valjoux 7750 to finish another project. As you can hopefully see the front had a strange bead blasted finish with an applied PVD finish which was somewhat faded, whilst the sides and shoulders were polished. Whether this was the original case finish I've no idea I think the sides may well have been PVD'd at some point too.

Anyway I decided it would look better with a starburst grain applied to the top, polished shoulders and horizontal graining to the sides.

*Before*














































TBC...


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

*After*














































There was some deep pitting and the case had taken a fair few knocks and scrapes in its life, so a bit more metal than usual had to be removed, overall though it's a massive improvement imho.

Cheers,

Gary

P.S. Anyone got a spare 7750 movement or donor watch going begging? :lol:


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## IAmATeaf (Dec 4, 2011)

Wow, what a machine is all I can say 

Even though you've shown us pics of the machine I'll be damned if my brain can figure out how the machine applies all those different finishes?


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## delays (Jan 20, 2009)

IAmATeaf said:


> Wow, what a machine is all I can say
> 
> Even though you've shown us pics of the machine I'll be damned if my brain can figure out how the machine applies all those different finishes?


I can't fathom it either but will certainly be interested in getting a few watches re-done...


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## dobra (Aug 20, 2009)

More more please. Fascinating.

Mike


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## Guest (May 14, 2012)

Brilliant :notworthy:


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Another really nice bit of work  I'm curious, does it use any kind of fluid or lubricant during the process and what is used for the highly polished areas, some sort of mop and polishing compound ????


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

BondandBigM said:


> Another really nice bit of work  I'm curious, does it use any kind of fluid or lubricant during the process and what is used for the highly polished areas, some sort of mop and polishing compound ????


TBH I've no idea if a fluid is used as I've yet to see the machine in action, there was no signs of any drip trays under the discs so I'm presuming that it's a dry process. The basic finish for the polished areas is achieved on the lapping machine and a separate machine with a mop wheel is used to get the final highly polished finish.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Bjorn1 (Apr 30, 2012)

Agent orange said:


> Sent you a PM Kev.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Hi Gary,

I was just wondering (too) what the cost is for A service and refurb with your watchmaker friends new lapping machine?

It's pretty rare to find someone who can do that, in my experience.

Thank you,

Best,

Bjorn


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

It really depends on the watch and its condition Bjorn. I can PM you details of the watchmaker if you'd like but to give a rough idea someone asked about servicing and refinishing a MKII Speedmaster (cal.861) and was quoted Â£400 for a complete strip down service, clean, regulation and re-lapped case. All his work is guaranteed for 1 year and he's Rolex, Omega and Breitling authorised repairer so has full access to all the correct manufacturers parts and has all the correct tools and training.

Obviously Rolex have a strict price structure for their authorised repairers which they have to adhere to and unfortunately Omega are trying to go down the same route, by restricting access to parts for non authorised repairers and forcing servicing costs up. Other watches may well be considerably cheaper.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Forgot to say that there is a chap in Belgium who has a lapping machine and refinishes cases without servicing the watch. Last I heard he was charging around â‚¬180 - â‚¬200 per case depending on its complexity. I've never used him personally but I've seen his work first hand and it's good.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Bjorn1 (Apr 30, 2012)

Thank you!


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Bjorn1 said:


> Thank you!


No problem at all, always happy to help when I can. If you want any more details just drop me a line.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

A quick update and another example, a Tag Heuer Monza that had a serious case of road rash after a cycling off.

This case demonstrates another skill which is micro welding. The bezel was seriously scoured with a lot of metal missing, so it has been built back up with stainless steel weld to be lapped down again later. As you'll hopefully see the welding is very intricate and built up in series of tiny dots.

*Before*




























*Welded bezel*



















A few more pics to follow...


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

*After*























































So it's possible, with a lot of skill and the right equipment, to re-lap to pretty much a factory finish.

The owner of this Monza is picking it up today and I'd love to see the look on his face when it's handed over.

Cheers,

Gary


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## jkb89 (Jan 6, 2012)

Gary, is this your work? The pictures are brilliant, excellent transformation.


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## Rotundus (May 7, 2012)




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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

jkb89 said:


> Gary, is this your work? The pictures are brilliant, excellent transformation.


Unfortunately not, the case was re-lapped by my local watchmaker and his jewellery maker friend did the welding. Pics are mine though 

Cheers,

Gary


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## Haggis (Apr 20, 2009)

Fantastic. :thumbup:


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## samb (Jun 17, 2012)

Really good result, after is much better


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## Alex11 (Jun 8, 2012)

Good there is an improvement like hell isn't there!


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## Stinch (Jul 9, 2008)

Amazing transformation Gary. Those Brilliant Bristol Boys!


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Another example, this time an Omega Speedmaster MKII case.

A strange one this as the top had been machine refinished but whoever did it either didn't know the correct finish or just chose to ignore it. Maybe it was just a case of doing the best they could, with the machinery to hand, to improve the overall look of the watch. So instead of the sunburst finish the top of the case had a radial effect finish.

They obviously couldn't be bothered to remove either the pusher or sleeve, maybe even both, either as the finish on the right hand side was very patchy to say the least.

The case had lost a lot of its sharpness and there was hardly any definition between the top, shoulders and case sides. As a friend once described poorly refinished cases 'they look like a half sucked boiled sweat' or words to that effect, which is a perfect description imho.

Before. The first two don't make it look too bad but once you get a little closer you can see the loss of definition and over lapping grained areas really easily.























































After pics to follow...


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

*After*























































A massive improvement I think you'll agree.

Cheers,

Gary

P.S. A big thank you to Luke for letting me use this case as an example and putting up with a slight delay whilst I photographed it.


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## Phillionaire (Jan 23, 2010)

Fantastic result :thumbsup: I didn't realise how shockingly 'rounded off' the case was before until the after pics highlighted it.

How long does an average case take then? I'd imagine 90% would be in the set up and making sure all the angles are correct. The actual machining would be over in a flash, I'm guessing?


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## Littlelegs (Dec 4, 2011)

Fantastic work. What's something like that cost to have done?


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

As you say Phil most of the time taken is setting up the angles and presenting the case to the lapping machine wheels precisely. Obviously there's also a fair bit of time stripping the watch down to a case in the first place and then re-assembling it afterwards.

In essence you're paying for the machinery (Â£30,000 + tooling) and the operators experience and skill. My watchmaker is the only non Rolex employee in the UK to have had exclusive, one to one Rolex training on a lapping machine. Hence why his results are so good in a comparatively short space of time.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Littlelegs said:


> Fantastic work. What's something like that cost to have done?


As an example the work done on the Tag Monza cost Â£150. Ultimately it depends on the condition of the watch and how much work is needed.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Another example of laser welding and lapping. This time a clasp from an Omega Geneve Chronostop.

*The original engraved clasp*










As you'll see it's fairly deep engraving, so there's no chance of just buffing it out and re-graining it without removing too much metal.

*Laser welded clasp*



















The eagle eyed amongst you will notice that the top section of the clasp is now very slightly convex along the width. This was a result of the heat from the welding process.

*The finished clasp*



















The slight distortion corrected and the clasp lapped to a grained finish.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Stuart Davies (Jan 13, 2008)

Gary if you would like a watch to practice on would you like to have a go on my 6138 3002? I'd love to see my favourite Seiko restored to it's original finish.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

I've been watching this thread since it started, and I have to say it's one of the most interesting I've seen. The finish on those cases is just awesome. Thanks for posting, Gary, and a big 'Well Done! to your watchmaker, micro-welder and yourself for the fantastic pics. :thumbup:


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## richardod (Oct 13, 2011)

Roger the Dodger said:


> I've been watching this thread since it started, and I have to say it's one of the most interesting I've seen. The finish on those cases is just awesome. Thanks for posting, Gary, and a big 'Well Done! to your watchmaker, micro-welder and yourself for the fantastic pics. :thumbup:


Me too- the results are amazing.


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Thanks for the kind words guys 

Here's the rest of the Omega Geneva Chronostop, not so extreme an example this time but it's still good to see how crisp the results are imho.

*Before *not really too bad but a few scars to mark its 42 years, my pics make it look better than it actually was.



















*After *the pics speak for themselves really



















More to follow...


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

A few macro shots to show the graining





































Cheers,

Gary

P.S. This might well be coming up for sale soon, if anyone's interested drop me a line.


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Another interesting example, this time an Omega Memomatic case.

This has been hand refinished to a good standard and most would be more than happy with the results. With hand refinishing however you do lose the edges as it's impossible to keep a perfectly flat and consistent angle when working on cases by hand, especially those with lots of curves. The net result is they tend to look a bit soft as the shoulders and what should be flat surfaces are rounded off a little.

*Before*























































The eagle eyed amongst you will also notice areas of over brushing where graining from the case top and sides has gone over on to the polished shoulders. Again because of the manual nature of the work this is a little inevitable and I've seen far worse examples.

After pics to follow...


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

My watchmaker had a real quandary with this one as he's a perfectionist and wants everything to be perfect. However because this case had been hand refinished non of the angles were consistent, so for instance the angle on the polished shoulders on both sides should be exactly the same. Likewise the case sides should be perfectly flat and vertical and the sunburst case top should be a consistent angle.

So it was a case of assessing what could be achieved without removing too much metal and inevitably there was a slight compromise. In this instant to get the case top to be perfectly flat too much metal would have to be removed, so you'll see that there's a slight imperfection. Likewise with the polished shoulders, too much metal would have had to be removed to get them perfectly flat again.

*After*























































Having watched Rocco work on this I have to say that there's a real skill in working the lapping machine. He was constantly assessing the case and making judgements on how far he could go. His natural instinct wanted to make it as factory fresh as possible but he knew he'd have to make small sacrifices, otherwise it would have been very easy to wreck the case.

Hopefully my pics have captured the difference between a good hand refinished case and a lapped case. The difference is quite pronounced I think.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Another update and example for anyone who's interested, this time it's an early 70's Omega Constellation Megaquartz. Although it was acceptable for a 40 year old watch there was some pretty deep scratches to the case sides and shoulders, plus the bezel had some scrape marks. I think it was definitely time for a freshen up.

This wasn't all done on a lapping machine, the case sides/back and clasp are hand refinishing and the bracelet was refinished on a polishing/graining wheel.

*Before*























































After pics to follow...


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

*After*























































Some of the finishes were done by hand but what makes the case (imho anyway) is the crispness and contrast between the difference textures. This is very difficult, if not impossible, to achieve without a lapping machine.

Cheers,

Gary


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## no8yogi (Oct 1, 2012)

that is an excellent result!


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Another update and some more before and after pics, this time an Omega Speedmaster MKIII.

This was a bit of a challenge as it's a serious chunk of steel with sunburst and vertical graining, lots of tight angles to access and some big surface areas to get a consistent graining on. Ostensibly it didn't look in too bad a shape but closer inspection revealed lots of scratches and dings, some around the bezel lip and hidden lug area. Plus at some point it had been hand refinished so the edges where a little soft and had lost some of their profile.

*Before*























































During pics to follow...


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

*During. *Quite a bit of laser welding was needed to build up some of the deeper dings and scratches





































After pics to follow...


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

*After*























































I think it's fair to say that this has been my watchmakers biggest lapping machine challenge to date. Personally I think he's pulled it off rather well. Thanks for looking.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

Wow.

The MQ in particular is very close in finish to both an SMf300, and to my Longines Ultronic Chronograph (which has a polished bezel similar to your MQ), the cases of both of which have bothered me for a while.

I think I'll be dropping them a line very soon.

Thanks for posting the update.


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Another quick update, this time with a Girard Perregaux case. It wasn't in too bad condition but there were a few scratches and dinks, plus the caseback had some deep tool slip marks.

*Before*























































After pics top follow...


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## ed335d (Aug 29, 2012)

Who. Me? said:


> Wow.
> 
> The MQ in particular is very close in finish to both an SMf300, and to my Longines Ultronic Chronograph (which has a polished bezel similar to your MQ), the cases of both of which have bothered me for a while.
> 
> ...


I'd not hesitate to use them again! :thumbsup:

Thanks for posting the other ones Gary


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

*After*























































Quite a transformation imho, even though it wasn't really in too bad a condition for a 40 year old watch.

Thanks to RaulGonzalez (Luke) for letting me use his watch as an example.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange (Feb 11, 2006)

Who. Me? said:


> Wow. The MQ in particular is very close in finish to both an SMf300, and to my Longines Ultronic Chronograph (which has a polished bezel similar to your MQ), the cases of both of which have bothered me for a while. I think I'll be dropping them a line very soon. Thanks for posting the update.


No problem at all Andy, I thought the MQ case would be a good example for you as the finishes are similar to the SMf300.

Cheers,

Gary


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## inskip75 (Jan 10, 2009)

all these cases are just fantastic jobs and it makes such a difference :yes:


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## Alex.m (Jul 10, 2010)

WOW ! That is Amazing what a difference. Puts mine to shame now. And I thought a good clean and wipe with a good cleaning cloth brought mine up looking good.


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## LJD (Sep 18, 2011)

stunning

he could earn a fortune in the car world. Imagine buttons and ###### etc in a mega expensive car finished to this standard !


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