# Smiths Pocket Watches - Character Dials



## Julian Latham

Over recent weeks I've noticed a sharp increase in the number of Smiths/Ingersoll pocket watches being offered with 'character' dials.

This seller is typical ebay seller

Either somebody's found a collector's hoard or there's a cottage industry in repro's.

Same thing happened with Molnijas from the Ukraine.


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## JoT

They seem very unconvincing to me; the copyright issues that Smiths would have had if they were genuine would have been immense? Besides I can't imagine for one minute that Smiths would produce a watch with a cartoon of Alice in Wonderland being back-scuttled by the Cheshire Cat!!


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## Robert

> EVEL KNIEVEL POCKET WATCH THIS DOES RUN BUT IS VERY OLD


Mmmm .... how old could it be ?


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## a6cjn

Julian Latham said:


> Over recent weeks I've noticed a sharp increase in the number of Smiths/Ingersoll pocket watches being offered with 'character' dials.
> 
> This seller is typical ebay seller
> 
> Either somebody's found a collector's hoard or there's a* cottage industry *in repro's.
> 
> Same thing happened with Molnijas from the Ukraine.


Perhaps a small enterprise from the sixties?

I get the impression that it was a UK one, particularly with the character 'Andy Capp' being offered on one dial.

Hard to tell from the seller's pics but they look as if the designs have been photocopied and then transfered onto a dial

Bit of fun I s'pose

Chris


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## mel

There was a guy Stateside, can't remember his name, doing character "aftermarket dials" for glue-ing on over existing ones, thereby doubling or trebling the value of an Â£8.00 pocket watch. These have re-surfaced in the US from his estate, and the technique he used also seems to have re-surfaced - try the bay #170439699169 and double your money overnight :yes:

You too can own an ancient Evel Knievel dial! :rofl: Stunt







Team Mel!


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## a6cjn

That was the seller I was looking at Mel.

Very poor pics but there seems to be two 'Sergeant Pepper' Beatle designs, one with dial numbers and one without.

They're cheap enough but I have to say they don't seem to have much 'quality' about them or was it a deliberate attempt to make them look aged?

Chris


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## Julian Latham

Found this on ebay's site ...

First a bit of history. During the 1950's when Roy Rogers watches were the hottest thing around, very few people were still using pocket watches. These were, for most purposes a thing of the past. However, Roy was so popular that Bradley, did produce pocket watches with Roy and Trigger on the face. Naturally, they did not sell in anywhere near the numbers that the Roy Rogers wrist watches sold in, so today, in the collectors market they are much rarer, and therefore, more expensive. Sometime in the 1990's a vast number of cheap watches with the same dial were made and sold as the real thing. Just like the knock off Roseville and Hull pottery, an unscrupulous dealer could buy one for a few dollars and sell them to the unwary for hundreds of dollars. Today when you see an auction for a Roy Rogers pocket watch many of them are for the cheap copies, unfortunately. Fortunately for the informed buyer, which you are about to be one, there is a way to tell the difference between the cheap forgery and the real thing. The ORIGINAL Roy Rogers pocket watch has a sliding lever to the left of the winding stem, as you are looking at the face. This is a stop watch feature that would allow the user to operate the watch much like a stop watch and time events. Thatâ€™s why the second hand is red and there are all those numbers, from 1 to 60, around the outside edge. All the ORIGINAL Roy Rogers pocket watches have this feature and all of the fakes do not. Thanks to a fellow Ebayer for this information.

I am seeing a lot of old pocket watches that are supposed to be very rare and possibly "one of a kind" showing up week after week and bidders are paying hundreds of dollars for these watches. Let me point out some of the things I've noticed on some of these watches from the 1920's through the 50's. On some of the Micky Mouse and Donald Duck pocket watches you will see a portion of the seconds indicators going a portion of the way around the dial and then be covered by the body of the Mouse or Duck. Also, you will see a second set of numbers inside the 1 thru the 12 that read 13 thru 24 where it isn't covered by the picture. These numbers are extremely faint and very hard to make out. Notice the pictures portrayed...When was the last time you saw part of the featured picture left off the dial. Also, the Black Sambo watches. The pocket watch I'm seeing is the same exact face from the alarm clock except the tiger has been removed from the picture. In the 1980's and 90s these things were faked in the thousands. And evidently someone is still silk screening copies of old pictures on the old dials. It is not difficult to do. I have many examples of repops here that have been made within the last few months. Including faked Coca Cola, Pepsi Cola, Roy Rogers, Lone Ranger, Hopalong Cassidy, Black Americana, Shirley Temple...almost anything of value you can imagine.

I have been involved in many different fields on Ebay and thus far have found fakes and misrepresentations in every field I have delt with. The latest is character/novelty pocketwatches. I purchased a Gene Autry pocket watch that set me back a very good chunk of money and when I got the watch I was amazed at how crummy the face looked. I put the face under a magnifying glass and realized that I was looking at a picture of a Gene Autry wrist watch that had been blown up to pocket watch size and then the gun in his hand had been smeared to cover it up, but you could still make it out. Also, the same holes that are in the wrist watch face were still in the pocket watch face. Just blurred. The dead givaway was the fact that the forger had not done a good job of covering the original pocket watch face and you could see part of the second marks where they were not completely covered on one side of the watch. I was lucky and got my money back, but I still managed to lose my shipping money. After I knew what to look for I was able to quickly pick out the other fakes and got rid of them also. Now I look at the auction picture very closely and it is amazing how much you can pick up under extreme magnification. I watched one watch go out for several hundred dollars and in the photo you can see where the new face on the old watch had to be cut larger than the center circle for the hands so they wouldn't scrub as they turned.

If any one, particular dealer is offering rare and hard to come by watches week after week it does have a tendency to make one wonder where all of these rare and unique watches are coming from. So, in closing I would like to say that if you are purchasing rare and unusual watches examine them very closely both during and after the sale. If you have any doubt about the watch, be sure to have an expert take a look at it for you. If you have managed to pay several hundred dollars for a $12 watch that has been faked it's worth a few more bucks to find out for sure. Good luck and I will be seeing you online )

Well, so much for my guide to help you keep from buying fakes. I got taken again today. I bought a 1950s Roy Rogers watch with the "original band" on it and in good working order. Unfortunately, all I checked was that the watch was in good working order and left good feedback when I found that it was. Later I had an opportunity to take a closer look at the watch and found that the seller had cut the orginal Roy Rogers buckle where it could be hidden by the band and then put that buckle on an ordinary brown band. It completely slipped my attention that the band keeper was leather instead of the cowboy metal keeper. So, no matter how careful you are, a crook will get you sooner or later. At least I now have a good working watch to put on one of my decent Roy Rogers bands. Another item I recieved is a genuine antique Roy Rogers watch fob. Well, it turned out to be a key holder that had a Roy Rogers paper face glued to it. What some people won't do for a lousy few bucks. LOL.

Update 4/2/07....Today I recieved two pocket watches. Superman and Aunt Jemima. Both of them are fakes worth about $8 to $10 each. The Superman is simply a copy of an original watch face and then printed on paper and glued to a cheap watch face. The Aunt Jemima appears to be a fantasy watch face printed on paper and glued to a cheap watch. I hope to be able to put up a website so you can go look at some of these ripoffs.

Update 5/29/07....I keep seeing one seller who is pushing the Black Sambo alarm clocks...in the original box no less. Apparently this seller managed to purchase an unlimited supply of these Black Sambo clocks in the orginal boxes because every few weeks he will put up another one for sale.

Yet another Update 5/30/07....It's nearly impossible to keep up with all the fakes being offered on Ebay. There are tons of them coming out of England and Portugal at the present. Here are just a few of the pocket watches...Buck Rogers, Masonic desk watches, Captain Marvel, Captain Marvel Jr., Mary Marvel, Superman, Batman, Howdy Doody, Princess Winterfall Summerspring, Clarabell and all of the other Doodyville characters, Three stooges, Donald Duck and on and on. From what I have found out these fake dials are being put on old original pocket watches. Here is how they are doing it.

The original dial is removed from the watch and the seconds hand depression is filled in and smoothed over to accept the new dial without a seconds indicator. Then the seconds hand shaft is ground off to below the level of the dial. Then a fake dial is put onto the old dial. Sometimes it is paper and sometimes it is a decal. In either case you can look at the very edge of the dial and see where it has been painted by hand to cover the original old dial and blend in the new fake dial. That is how a crook turns an old common pocket watch worth about $8 to $12 into a fake to cheat you out of $200 to $500. Good luck and be sure to report every fake you find.

4/12/07 Update. WARNING, WARNING, WARNING!!!!! There are presently a lot of fake Smiths Ingersolls pocket watches coming out of England... There is a small club there that meets to exchange and create fake dials. Many of these dials are listed as not paper, but enamelled!! Don't you believe it. These dials are paper dials that have been sprayed with a clear lacquer or enamel. They are fakes....EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM. The ones I am seeing at this time include, Bud Abbot and Lou Costello, The Three Stooges, Batman, Plastic Man, Superman changing from Clark Kent to Superman, The Flash, Woody Woodpecker....Really way too many to keep up with. There appear to be three or four different people selling and I do know that one of these people has sold under other names. Generally for maby 30 to 50 times and then yet another name. Be advised that these people are out and out crooks selling very low end watches for up to $300 or $400 each.

5/27/08 Update. A couple of weeks ago I purchased a Lil Abner watch that turned out to be a copy of a Muros dial glued to another watch. I sent the watch back for a refund and the seller has relisted the same watch, but now has removed the Lil Abner dial and replaced it with an "original" Bugs Bunny dial. Ya gotta be careful. LOL.

Here is a website you can go to see some of the fake watches, but you will not see all of the fakes. The bulk of the fakes listed on this website are made here in the good ole' USA

Well, Ebay won't let me give the page. You can send me an email and I will be glad to send you the information. Just keep in mind that most of the character pocket watches you are looking at are fakes.

Guide ID: 10000000003295102Guide created: 04/03/07 (updated 08/23/10)

.... This is just one of several guides warning of fake character dials, I guess its a case of 'buyer beware' and asking for quality close-up images of the dial edges.

Julian (L)


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## harryblakes7

I agree, buyer beware, have seen lots of these fakes as well, i even sent an e-mail to a well known auction house yesterday as they were trying to sell a very obvious fake Rolex in their auction and asking lots of dosh!!


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## besspeg

this has gone on for many years in the pocket watch game especially on the cheaper low end pocket watches as it does make them more collectable with a charatcer dial ive even been to swap meets where i have exchanged dials this is well know accross smiths ingersoll westclox type dollar pocket watches i cant see the problem myself i would rather have a picture on the dial better than a boring smiths pocket watch thats worth no money at all 95% of every dial ive seen is really well done with a high gloss finsh ive seen some poor paper dials but most of them are enamled and look very very good up to whos buying them really but smiths also made hundreds of these type pocket watches and even commisioned them for big firms like guiness double diamond bitter and gruops of the 60s the beatles etc etc it really is impossible to tell how many smiths actually made themselves


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## tissotman

besspeg said:


> this has gone on for many years in the pocket watch game especially on the cheaper low end pocket watches as it does make them more collectable with a charatcer dial ive even been to swap meets where i have exchanged dials this is well know accross smiths ingersoll westclox type dollar pocket watches i cant see the problem myself i would rather have a picture on the dial better than a boring smiths pocket watch thats worth no money at all 95% of every dial ive seen is really well done with a high gloss finsh ive seen some poor paper dials but most of them are enamled and look very very good up to whos buying them really but smiths also made hundreds of these type pocket watches and even commisioned them for big firms like guiness double diamond bitter and gruops of the 60s the beatles etc etc it really is impossible to tell how many smiths actually made themselves


ive got to be honest every boot sale auction watch fair etc i always seem to see these so called collectable charatcer pocket watches dont know who made these but i dont think it was smiths watches as the copyrights would have been massive but there we go always seems to be bidder and buyers for these types of watches so what ever floats your boat i suppose


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## watchnutz

> i cant see the problem myself i would rather have a picture on the dial better than a boring smiths pocket watch thats worth no money


I would agree if they are advertised and sold for what they are. I find it morally corrupt however, and bordering on criminal, if they are advertised as "original" and/or "vintage" and thereby commanding prices of originals which can be very high. An example is the Ingersoll "three little pigs" where the true original can command over $1000. Suddenly these are appearing on ebay.


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## Julian Latham

watchnutz said:


> i cant see the problem myself i would rather have a picture on the dial better than a boring smiths pocket watch thats worth no money
> 
> 
> 
> I would agree if they are advertised and sold for what they are. I find it morally corrupt however, and bordering on criminal, if they are advertised as "original" and/or "vintage" and thereby commanding prices of originals which can be very high. An example is the Ingersoll "three little pigs" where the true original can command over $1000. Suddenly these are appearing on ebay.
Click to expand...

+1 - My feelings exactly. In an earlier post besspeg summed up the attitude of vendors, including himself, to scamming. An interesting insight.

...."this has gone on for many years in the pocket watch game especially on the cheaper low end pocket watches as it does make them more collectable with a charatcer dial ive even been to swap meets where i have exchanged dials this is well know accross smiths ingersoll westclox type dollar pocket watches *i cant see the problem myself i would rather have a picture on the dial better than a boring smiths pocket watch *thats worth no money at all 95% of every dial ive seen is really well done with a high gloss finsh"

Apologies for repetition - didn't read earlier posts thoroughly enough - the points had already been made.


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## tissotman

Julian Latham said:


> watchnutz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i cant see the problem myself i would rather have a picture on the dial better than a boring smiths pocket watch thats worth no money
> 
> 
> 
> I would agree if they are advertised and sold for what they are. I find it morally corrupt however, and bordering on criminal, if they are advertised as "original" and/or "vintage" and thereby commanding prices of originals which can be very high. An example is the Ingersoll "three little pigs" where the true original can command over $1000. Suddenly these are appearing on ebay.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> +1 - My feelings exactly. In an earlier post besspeg summed up the attitude of vendors, including himself, to scamming. An interesting insight.
> 
> ...."this has gone on for many years in the pocket watch game especially on the cheaper low end pocket watches as it does make them more collectable with a charatcer dial ive even been to swap meets where i have exchanged dials this is well know accross smiths ingersoll westclox type dollar pocket watches *i cant see the problem myself i would rather have a picture on the dial better than a boring smiths pocket watch *thats worth no money at all 95% of every dial ive seen is really well done with a high gloss finsh"
> 
> Apologies for repetition - didn't read earlier posts thoroughly enough - the points had already been made.
Click to expand...

yeah bit of a touchy one this i suppose people should really look into the history of any pocket watch with a character dial i mean google is only a click away do some reseach before they but and even see if one was ever made by smiths if not almost 100% a custom dial !


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