# Would Really Appreciate Some Information



## clockwatching (Mar 4, 2011)

Hello my name is Simon , and was wondering if any one cam help me with some information about a Pocket Watch passed down to me by my belated Grandfather.

The watch is a Rotherhams London














































Any information would be very much appreciated. Thank you in advance.


----------



## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

OK...it's very late and just seen this...all I can say at the moment is that it has an Aaron Lufking Dennison (ALD) gold filled case. There appears to be a watch makers service mark scratched onto the case just to the left of where it says 'to wear 10 years'. The movement looks very similar to a watch I posted last week  see here  which has a 3/4 plate, though this is stem wind and set as opposed to key wind and set as mine was.I'm sure some one will be along shortly to give you more information.


----------



## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

You posted this at the WatchUSeek forums. I doubt very much that you'll get anymore information by posting it here as well. What information do you want, anyay? If it's "is the watch valuable?" the answer is no.


----------



## clockwatching (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi Shangas, I have posted this on several forums, I don't see this being an issue as I will ensure that I will receive more of a wider audience and more information. The watch is valuable! as it was left to me by my Granddad. in money terms, I am not interested as It will never be sold anyway, but something passed down through the family.

I know nothing about watches , but have recently been very interested by comments made by others on other forums. I have a lot of information about the case but very little about the works.

Why have I posted on other forums.

Well I feel I have contributed already and found information out about the Rotherham's company, that some watch collectors did not know. Another example the first comment on her by "Rodger the Dodger" has been more precise about the case and highlighted the service mark. not picked up any where else.

To finalise , what became an interest in my Granddads watch has now being an interest in different pocket watches, an may consider in collecting.

My intentions are not to seek value at all, but to find information , history, and details about a watch in know nothing about.

Thank you "Rodger the Dodger" for you comments.


----------



## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

There is a bit more information on ALD cases in a thread I posted last May, which may help a bit more with your researches,  here  :thumbsup:


----------



## Seismic one (Jun 21, 2008)

Shangas said:


> You posted this at the WatchUSeek forums. I doubt very much that you'll get anymore information by posting it here as well. What information do you want, anyay? If it's "is the watch valuable?" the answer is no.


I must disagree with on this, i also consider your reply disrespectful, i too have posted the same questions on differant forums with good results. Not every collector is a member of all forums therefore it is advantageous to get as wide a coverage as possible.

Lets encourage interest and not be so quick to judge others motives.


----------



## JWL940 (Jun 11, 2010)

Roger



> though this is stem wind and set


have a closer look, wouldn't you say it's stem wound and pin set?

In photo 5 (close up of the balance wheel) what are those 2 jewels to the north and north-east of the balance wheel jewel doing? I've not seen anything like that before.

Simon, that is a nice looking watch in good condition, enjoy it before passing on down the family line.


----------



## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

JWL940 said:


> Roger
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right, John.....well it was very late when I looked at it on Friday night....should've gone to Specsavers! :bag: :duh:


----------



## JWL940 (Jun 11, 2010)

Naw, I think what it means is that I am slowly, very slowly, starting to learn - so much to learn, so little time in which to do so.

Now, next question. As a rule of thumb I have always dated "Key wind and set" as pre-1880 and "Stem wind and set" as post-1920 with a mixture of stem and pin appearing somewhere in the window between 1880 and 1920. Does this conjecture hold water or are there other dating clues I should be using?

John


----------



## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

You may well be right, John....but there are obviously some overlaps in the time line, because my Grandfather's Garrard key wind and set PW dates from 1845, and my Waltham Hunter stem wind and set is from 1908!....perhaps someone with far more knowledge on the subject will be along to enlighten us both!


----------



## tonywatch1748 (Sep 12, 2010)

First, some information about Rotherham, taken from "WATCHES 1850-1990" by M Cutmore.

History of Rotherham of Coventry can be traced back to 1747, founded by Samuel Vale. After various changes Rotherham and Son appear in the Kelly Directory at 27 Spon Street from 1871 to 1932.

There is an interesting report of a factory visit in the Horological Journal, June 1888.

They made watches and cases by machinery.

Your watch carry the Rotherham trade mark on the dial and the other mark "Rotherham London" used by the company on the back plate.

Three quarter plate, right angle English layout lever escapement,19 jewels screw fitted. The watch appear to be their top of range production.

Keyless winding, but not hands setting.

Breguet, made some watches with keyless winding.

Thomas Prest, for many years foreman at J R Arnold's chronometer manufactory in Chigwell, Essex, and Patentee of the first successful keyless work for watches - Patent 4501, October 1820.

Other winding and hands setting were invented by LeCoultre (1838 patented in 1848) and Audemars Ancienne Maison.

However the first worldwide patent for keyless winding and hands setting appear to be English patent n. 10,348 taken out by Adolphe Nicole, of Nicole & Capt, in 1844.

Tonywatch


----------



## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

First I would like to apologise for my lack of manners in my first post. It was unjustified and rude.

Secondly,

This discussion of key vs. keyless watches.

From what I understand, the first 'keyless watches', such as these, shown here:










were invented in the 1830s/40s and were perfected by the late 1840s. The creation of the first keyless watch (which did not require a key to either wind or set it), is attritubted to the Patek Philippe Company (which if I'm correct, went under a slightly different name in the 1840s). The first commercially-available 'keyless watches' were unveiled at the Great Exhibition in 1851 in London. Queen Victoria and Prince Albert were among the first people to own these newfangled 'keyless' watches which in the 1850s, would've been revolutionary technology to a global population which was used to fumbling around with watch-keys to wind up their timepieces every two days.

Keyless works/movements continued to be developed throughout the 1850s and began to slowly spread around the world from Europe. Very slowly. I may be wrong, but I believe the first commercially-manufactured keyless watches that came out in the USA, started in the 1870s.

The USA, with what was called the "American system" of producing pocketwatches ("Mass production") were quicker to adopt this new keyless technology than comparable major watchmakers in Europe. This might account for why two watches from the same time might be one key-operated, one keyless, one from Europe, one from America.

Some of you may remember this photograph of Lincoln's watch, which caused a storm of amazement a few years ago...










The watch is of a model made in the 1850s, which if my research is correct, is when keyless watches were just starting to be introduced. As you can see, though, it's a key-operated watch.

Really, what I think is that to say that a watch with a keyless mechanism dates from after 1880, isn't true. I've seen watches on other forums (and here) dating to before then, which were keyless, and I have seen watches dating up to the turn of the 20th century (which were brand new at the time) which were key-operated.

I think it's just a matter of how fast various companies and countries adopted the new keyless mechanisms that accounts for this mixup of dates.


----------



## JWL940 (Jun 11, 2010)

Excellent post Shangas, many thanks.

I certainly wasn't trying to suggest a definitive rule of pre 1880 / post 1920 (with a mixture of key, keyless and pin/lever set in between those dates) but was looking for more of a 'rule of thumb' to help with dating. And as we know thumbs come in varying thicknesses. I guess if the first commercially keyless watches started to appear in the 1870s then 1880 is a close enough start date for me. I own a silver Benson (1904 I think without getting it out to look)that is key wound and set and what a faff that is. All my other PWs are keyless and I cannot see myself acquiring anything but keyless in the future unless it's something special.

Are those 2 gold keyless watches yours?


----------



## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

Sorry, yes, I should've mentioned that!!

The two gold keyless watches ARE mine.

RIGHT is a 1900 Waltham Riverside.

LEFT is an 1896 IWC Schaffhausen.

The Riverside is currently at the watchmaker's being serviced.

Really, like you say, there's a HUGE disparage (if that's the right word) between Keyless and Key. There was a massive overlap time of at least 50 years before companies REALLY started producing ONLY keyless watches. Don't forget that many European watchmakers were smalltime businesses with limited means. It would be teh BIG watchmakers...IWC, Heuer, Rolex, Patek-Philippe and so forth, the big name companies that had the MONEY to MODERNISE...who would make keyless watches first. Much like the big American companies - Waltham, Howard, Illinois, Elgin, Hamilton and so on. The small watch companies (of which there are countless hundreds) would have continued making key-operated watches for decades until they either amassed the monies to modernise, or died out due to the growing obselecence of the key-wind/key-set pocketwatch.


----------

