# JJ Dagg Pocket watch



## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

Hi, I have an old pocket watch with the words: JAs J Dagg, 242 Scotland Road, Liverpool, on the watch face. I'm wondering what the history behind it is, and approximately what year it would have been manufactured? (I want to post some photos of it on here, but I'm not having the option to do it.)


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

KevinYnysMon said:


> Dagg


 James Dagg of Liverpool was trading circa 1850, according to the source I have. Might be able to find more later.

You need to upload the pictures to a hosting site like Flickr or imgur. View the picture there, copy the link and paste here. It should automatically embed the photo, or at least show a link we can click on.


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

spinynorman said:


> James Dagg of Liverpool was trading circa 1850, according to the source I have. Might be able to find more later.
> 
> You need to upload the pictures to a hosting site like Flickr or imgur. View the picture there, copy the link and paste here. It should automatically embed the photo, or at least show a link we can click on.


 Ah, thank you. I've just posted it onto Flickr, and here's the URL for it. (Hope it works). Thanks for the information also, that's very interesting.



KevinYnysMon said:


> Ah, thank you. I've just posted it onto Flickr, and here's the URL for it. (Hope it works). Thanks for the information also, that's very interesting.


 It's still not allowing me to even copy the URL. Not sure what I'm doing wrong here...?


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Dear Kevin, here is another, rather nice, silver pocket watch by James J. Dagg of Liverpool. The 48 mm wide silver case is hallmarked for Chester, 1846[?], with the maker's mark, G.R.. The Address on the watch dial is 242 Scotland Road, Liverpool. Apparently, the movement is also signed, Jas. J. Dagg, and bears some form of letter/number combination

[IMG alt="Image result for j j dagg watch images" data-ratio="132.01"]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/360/1014/28/antique-silver-chester-fusee-pocket_360_b4394831201aff8baf2eb9b0467b0c67.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG alt="Image result for j j dagg watch images" data-ratio="82.75"]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images3/360/1014/28/antique-silver-chester-fusee-pocket_360_b4394831201aff8baf2eb9b0467b0c67.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG alt="Image result for j j dagg watch images" data-ratio="125.39"]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images4/360/1014/28/antique-silver-chester-fusee-pocket_360_b4394831201aff8baf2eb9b0467b0c67.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG alt="Image result for j j dagg watch images" data-ratio="78.75"]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images2/360/1014/28/antique-silver-chester-fusee-pocket_360_b4394831201aff8baf2eb9b0467b0c67.jpg[/IMG]

(Pics from Worthpoint)


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

> Dear Kevin, here is another, rather nice, silver pocket watch by James J. Dagg of Liverpool. The 48 mm wide silver case is hallmarked for Chester, 1846[?], with the maker's mark, G.R.. The Address on the watch dial is 242 Scotland Road, Liverpool. Apparently, the movement is also signed, Jas. J. Dagg, and bears some form of letter/number combination
> 
> [IMG alt="Image result for j j dagg watch images" data-ratio="132.01"]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/360/1014/28/antique-silver-chester-fusee-pocket_360_b4394831201aff8baf2eb9b0467b0c67.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> ...





> Dear Kevin, here is another, rather nice, silver pocket watch by James J. Dagg of Liverpool. The 48 mm wide silver case is hallmarked for Chester, 1846[?], with the maker's mark, G.R.. The Address on the watch dial is 242 Scotland Road, Liverpool. Apparently, the movement is also signed, Jas. J. Dagg, and bears some form of letter/number combination
> 
> [IMG alt="Image result for j j dagg watch images" data-ratio="132.01"]https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/360/1014/28/antique-silver-chester-fusee-pocket_360_b4394831201aff8baf2eb9b0467b0c67.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> ...


 Hi, thank you for that, again very interesting. I'm not actually able to view your photos though. (Not sure what I'm doing wrong here? Seems I'm unable to either upload photos, or view them..)


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

> Dear Kevin, here is another, rather nice, silver pocket watch by James J. Dagg of Liverpool. The 48 mm wide silver case is hallmarked for Chester, 1846[?], with the maker's mark, G.R.. The Address on the watch dial is 242 Scotland Road, Liverpool. Apparently, the movement is also signed, Jas. J. Dagg, and bears some form of letter/number combination
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I'm now able to see the images of the watch you just posted, and it looks exactly like the one I have! The only difference is that the hands on mine are a gold colour, not black. Thank you so much for going to the trouble of showing me this information.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

KevinYnysMon said:


> I'm now able to see the images of the watch you just posted, and it looks exactly like the one I have!


 The most interesting picture of the ones from Worthpoint is the third one which shows the inside of the caseback with hallmarks, which would tell us the date the case was made. If you can get a clear photo of those marks into Flickr, go to your photostream and click on the picture. At the bottom right you should see four icons, click the second one (share). You should then see a URL like https://flic.kr/p/2ivQx8h, but with a different code after the /p/. Copy that and paste it into your reply here. After a few seconds, the picture should show in your reply. (It may not have worked before due to a glitch in the system of some kind, I couldn't see the Worthpoint pictures before, now I can.) The one above has the makers mark GR, which is George Roberts, who was working in Liverpool in the 1850s.

I've found various trade directory entries for James Joseph Dagg, watch and clockmaker, as well as birth, marriage and death records. A James Joseph Dagg was listed in Slater's National Commercial Directory of Ireland from 1846, with a workshop at 8, Dublin Street, Carlow. He appears again in Gore's Liverpool Directory of 1860, by then at 242 Scotland Road and also 1 Virgil Street, Liverpool. The business is still listed in the Commercial Directory of Liverpool for 1872, although the records I've found suggest he died in 1871. It's quite possible the estate hadn't been wound up, or his widow kept the business going.

Ancestry records show James Joseph Dagg, born around 1820 in Carlow, Ireland, married Mary Walton Maddock in Liverpool in 1852, died 5th Sept 1871 in West Derby, Lancashire. He's buried in Anfield Cemetary "Large upright pink granite obelisk on a large square tiered base. In / affectionate remembrance / of / James J. DAGG, / who departed this life / September 6th 1871, / aged 49 years. / Also Mary, wife / of the above J. J. DAGG, / who departed this life / Jany 22nd 1890, aged 62 years."


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

spinynorman said:


> The most interesting picture of the ones from Worthpoint is the third one which shows the inside of the caseback with hallmarks, which would tell us the date the case was made. If you can get a clear photo of those marks into Flickr, go to your photostream and click on the picture. At the bottom right you should see four icons, click the second one (share). You should then see a URL like https://flic.kr/p/2ivQx8h, but with a different code after the /p/. Copy that and paste it into your reply here. After a few seconds, the picture should show in your reply. (It may not have worked before due to a glitch in the system of some kind, I couldn't see the Worthpoint pictures before, now I can.) The one above has the makers mark GR, which is George Roberts, who was working in Liverpool in the 1850s.
> 
> I've found various trade directory entries for James Joseph Dagg, watch and clockmaker, as well as birth, marriage and death records. A James Joseph Dagg was listed in Slater's National Commercial Directory of Ireland from 1846, with a workshop at 8, Dublin Street, Carlow. He appears again in Gore's Liverpool Directory of 1860, by then at 242 Scotland Road and also 1 Virgil Street, Liverpool. The business is still listed in the Commercial Directory of Liverpool for 1872, although the records I've found suggest he died in 1871. It's quite possible the estate hadn't been wound up, or his widow kept the business going.
> 
> Ancestry records show James Joseph Dagg, born around 1820 in Carlow, Ireland, married Mary Walton Maddock in Liverpool in 1852, died 5th Sept 1871 in West Derby, Lancashire. He's buried in Anfield Cemetary "Large upright pink granite obelisk on a large square tiered base. In / affectionate remembrance / of / James J. DAGG, / who departed this life / September 6th 1871, / aged 49 years. / Also Mary, wife / of the above J. J. DAGG, / who departed this life / Jany 22nd 1890, aged 62 years."


 Those details are so interesting, thank you so much for going to such trouble to find them. They certainly give me a better idea of when the watch was made. (I had no idea it was so old). I've taken a photo of the inside of the case, and uploaded it onto Flickr, and will try once again to paste the URL on here. (The numbers 4 and 6 appear underneath the hallmarks if that's any indication of anything?)

When I insert the URL into the little box, it appears in red but then nothing at all happens. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. 
Is it possible you could go onto Flickr and type in JJ Dagg pocket watch? It might bring you to my photos? Thank you.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

KevinYnysMon said:


> When I insert the URL into the little box, it appears in red but then nothing at all happe


 I don't use the little box, just control v to paste the link, or on my phone, just hold my finger on the page till paste comes up as an option. I'll check the hallmarks later, unless someone else does first.


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## John_D (Jul 21, 2018)

The hallmark is for Chester 1862, The 'GR' being the case maker's mark.....


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

spinynorman said:


> I don't use the little box, just control v to paste the link, or on my phone, just hold my finger on the page till paste comes up as an option. I'll check the hallmarks later, unless someone else does first.


 Thank you! At least my photos are up here at last. Thanks again for your trouble.



John_D said:


> The hallmark is for Chester 1862, The 'GR' being the case maker's mark.....


 That's fantastic. So the watch was made in 1862 then? Interestingly, my great grandfather was born in 1862, so I wonder if the watch was given to him (or his parents) as some kind of gift at the occasion of his birth? I know my grandmother was given a cabinet clock on the occasion of her birth in 1899? Thank you so much for this information. I really do appreciate it.


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## John_D (Jul 21, 2018)

KevinYnysMon said:


> Thank you! At least my photos are up here at last. Thanks again for your trouble.
> 
> That's fantastic. So the watch was made in 1862 then? Interestingly, my great grandfather was born in 1862, so I wonder if the watch was given to him (or his parents) as some kind of gift at the occasion of his birth? I know my grandmother was given a cabinet clock on the occasion of her birth in 1899? Thank you so much for this information. I really do appreciate it.


 No problems. was your grandfather born in the Liverpool area? If so this would make your theory of a 'birth gift' plausible, though a wealthy, near relative, from Liverpool is another possibility.....


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

John_D said:


> No problems. was your grandfather born in the Liverpool area? If so this would make your theory of a 'birth gift' plausible, though a wealthy, near relative, from Liverpool is another possibility.....


 No, he wasn't born in Liverpool, he was born here in Anglesey (where I also live) but you're right, it would have had to have been given as a gift by someone pretty wealthy at the time. I suppose a pocket watch would have been pretty expensive in those days.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

Apologies to those that have already contributed to the topic, but feel I should some additional info, that 'may' be useful.

George Reader watch, & principally a _watchcase _maker 1 Hertford Place, Coventry, supplied cases to watchmakers all over Great Britain.

Coventry is well noted for producing & supplying quality cases to other watchmakers. By 1850 Coventry was the main centre for assembly & finishing in the UK

George Reader's marks (2) were *GR*, & particularly as in @Always"watching" example *G.R. *These were both registered at the Chester assay office.

Watchcase makers mark (in the main) should not be taken as the maker of the movement, or even the dial. Few makers actually made the complete timepiece, even today!

Hope this helps.

:thumbsup:


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

Karrusel said:


> Apologies to those that have already contributed to the topic, but feel I should some additional info, that 'may' be useful.
> 
> George Reader watch, & principally a _watchcase _maker 1 Hertford Place, Coventry, supplied cases to watchmakers all over Great Britain.
> 
> ...


 Thank you, but would 1862 have been the approximate year in which the watch was made would you say?



John_D said:


> The hallmark is for Chester 1862, The 'GR' being the case maker's mark.....


 Just out of interest, is it worth me having the watch repaired at all? I have no idea if it's even possible to repair it, or even the extent of repair needed.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

KevinYnysMon said:


> Thank you, but would 1862 have been the approximate year in which the watch was made would you say?


 The hallmark is for Chester 1862, as @John_D quite rightly indicated above. That would be when the case would have been assayed.

Unable to say when the timepiece was assembled & sold without watchmakers inventory & sale receipts. Suspect within 6 months ? at the latest. Watch, Silver & Component makers, assay office, need paying promptly to survive!

:thumbsup:


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Karrusel said:


> George Reader's marks (2) were *GR*, & particularly as in @Always"watching" example *G.R. *These were both registered at the Chester assay office.


 I'll take your knowledge over my research any day, but in Honour's example, I was going by the lozenge







for George Roberts, according to http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Makers/Chester-G.html Whereas in Kevin's picture it does look more like George Reader









There is a video of a working JJ Dagg movement on Youtube.


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

Karrusel said:


> The hallmark is for Chester 1862, as @John_D quite rightly indicated above. That would be when the case would have been assayed.
> 
> Unable to say when the timepiece was assembled & sold without watchmakers inventory & sale receipts. Suspect within 6 months ? at the latest. Watch, Silver & Component makers, assay office, need paying promptly to survive!
> 
> :thumbsup:


 Thank you. So safe to say the watch was made between 1861 and 1863 I presume then? I think I'll stick to 1862 as an educated guess. Thanks again.



spinynorman said:


> I'll take your knowledge over my research any day, but in Honour's example, I was going by the lozenge
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Wow that's great - thanks for the link.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

KevinYnysMon said:


> Wow that's great - thanks for the link.


 I assume yours doesn't work, with the missing second hand, and looks like a bent minute hand. Are you planning to get it fixed?


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

spinynorman said:


> I assume yours doesn't work, with the missing second hand, and looks like a bent minute hand. Are you planning to get it fixed?


 I would definitely think about getting it fixed. I've tried winding it, but nothing at all happens, so I guess it's well and truly out of action, although obviously I don't know the extent of repair needed.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

KevinYnysMon said:


> I would definitely think about getting it fixed. I've tried winding it, but nothing at all happens, so I guess it's well and truly out of action, although obviously I don't know the extent of repair needed.


 I just noticed you'd asked that question already. If you are going to get it fixed, make sure you go to someone who knows what they're doing. Don't go to a high street chain, and if you go to a local jeweller, find out who they'll be sending it away to and what experience they have of this type of watch. You would ideally want to give the repairer the picture of the dial from Worthpoint, so they can match the second hand as close as possible. I had a watch like this restored and I think it cost nearly £200, so that's something you have to consider. I rarely wind mine, but I like to know I could if I wanted to. Like yours, it has family connections.

Incidentally, mine winds anti-clockwise, if you haven't tried that. Also, have you opened it right up to look at the movement? I'm assuming it's like the one in the video.


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

spinynorman said:


> I just noticed you'd asked that question already. If you are going to get it fixed, make sure you go to someone who knows what they're doing. Don't go to a high street chain, and if you go to a local jeweller, find out who they'll be sending it away to and what experience they have of this type of watch. You would ideally want to give the repairer the picture of the dial from Worthpoint, so they can match the second hand as close as possible. I had a watch like this restored and I think it cost nearly £200, so that's something you have to consider. I rarely wind mine, but I like to know I could if I wanted to. Like yours, it has family connections.
> 
> Incidentally, mine winds anti-clockwise, if you haven't tried that. Also, have you opened it right up to look at the movement? I'm assuming it's like the one in the video.


 Good advice about the choice of jeweller. I definitely wouldn't take it to any of the high Street jewellers, as none of them actually repair watches anymore, they only sell them. I haven't opened it up to look at the movement, partly because I'm not sure how to, and partly because I'm afraid of damaging it by doing something I shouldn't.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

KevinYnysMon said:


> Good advice about the choice of jeweller. I definitely wouldn't take it to any of the high Street jewellers, as none of them actually repair watches anymore, they only sell them. I haven't opened it up to look at the movement, partly because I'm not sure how to, and partly because I'm afraid of damaging it by doing something I shouldn't.


 It's usually quite a simple latching arrangement, but I was terrified the first time I opened mine. Nothing bad happened though, just don't go poking about in it. If it's like mine, that long curved bar moves to the right, using the little peg in the middle, and then the inner case should lift off. Slide the other way to secure it when you're done.



There's a watch repair shop on Anglesey that's had some recommendations on other forums, though not for something like this. It might be worth having a chat with them and see what sort of vibes you get.

http://angleseywatches.co.uk/


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

spinynorman said:


> It's usually quite a simple latching arrangement, but I was terrified the first time I opened mine. Nothing bad happened though, just don't go poking about in it. If it's like mine, that long curved bar moves to the right, using the little peg in the middle, and then the inner case should lift off. Slide the other way to secure it when you're done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thanks - I might have a go at opening it (depending on how brave I feel). The link for Anglesey watches is very useful, and definitely one I shall bear in mind should I decide to have it repaired.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Dear Kevin @KevinYnysMon, and the other contributors to this interesting and lively thread, I thought I would just "throw a cat among the pigeons" and show you this rather nice wall clock by our friend, J. J. Dagg:




























(Pics from images.auctionet.com)

This clock measure about 60 cms tall and is/was being sold at an auction house in Sweden. The auction house dates the clock to the late 19th century. Note that the address given for J. J. Dagg on the dial is 242 Scotland Road, Liverpool.


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

> Dear Kevin @KevinYnysMon, and the other contributors to this interesting and lively thread, I thought I would just "throw a cat among the pigeons" and show you this rather nice wall clock by our friend, J. J. Dagg:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That's really beautiful. I actually have a Troy model, black walnut cabinet clock, made by the Ansonia Clock Company, New York. It was my grandmother's clock, and was manufactured in 1894. I've just uploaded a photo of it onto Flickr, and yet again am going to attempt to paste the URL on here. Ah - it's worked!

[IMG alt=""Troy" model cabinet clock from the Ansonia Clock Company, New York"]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49569542978_571a50370b_b.jpg[/IMG]


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

> Dear Kevin @KevinYnysMon, and the other contributors to this interesting and lively thread, I thought I would just "throw a cat among the pigeons" and show you this rather nice wall clock by our friend, J. J. Dagg:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That is a beauty, lovely woodwork. Not sure about the plastic electrical connector though. I guess that's keeping the pendulum from swinging in transit. :biggrin: I wonder how it got to Sweden.


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## KevinYnysMon (Feb 20, 2020)

spinynorman said:


> It's usually quite a simple latching arrangement, but I was terrified the first time I opened mine. Nothing bad happened though, just don't go poking about in it. If it's like mine, that long curved bar moves to the right, using the little peg in the middle, and then the inner case should lift off. Slide the other way to secure it when you're done.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Here's the inside of my watch. I managed to open it just now.


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