# Japanese Vs. Swiss Manufacturing



## AaronC (Jun 8, 2010)

Hi everyone. I'm pretty new to watch collecting, so please feel free to correct any of my observations below if they're incorrect. (and I certainly hope that I don't offend any avid Rolex fans by my statements below, which is part of the reason I decided to post this in the Japanese watch forum rather than the Swiss one :lookaround: )

My understanding is that Seiko tries to mechanize a lot of things that would normally be done by hand in a Swiss factory - like decorating the surfaces of the bridges - with the goal of improving the consistency of their product. Higher end movements have more finishing work done, but still by machine. Only final assembly requires humans to do the work. So, the Japanese watch movement aesthetic seems to me to focus on precision and replicability, with a de-emphasis on the artistic expression of a human watch craftsman.

It seems to me that historically the Swiss have taken a very different approach, with companies proudly finishing their movements by hand, and emphasizing the skill of the craftsman who created the watch. Even if the company buys its ebuches, they frequently add tremendous amounts of hand work to customize the movement to fit their own goals.

Now, I recently read a very interesting article in Watchtime magazine. One of their reporters was allowed into Rolex's factory for the first time. Apparently Rolex is very secretive about their watch production technology.

Anyway, what struck me from this article is that Rolex has robots making almost everything. The human beings were primarily there to monitor and run the robots. To me, this seemed very much like the traditional Japanese business model rather than the Swiss one.

So, is Rolex a Swiss watch maker or a Japanese one in disguise transplanted into Switzerland? If you agree that Swiss watch craftsmanship is about showing off the skills of their human artisans, but that Rolex isn't doing this, aren't they just following the Japanese business model but profiting from the cache' of being Swiss?

Aaron


----------



## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

Isn't it just a question of scale? AFAIK, Rolex are the second biggest Swiss manufacturer, after Swatch/ETA. Their size means that they can justify the purchase cost of "robots". Don't ETA use "robots", too?


----------



## AaronC (Jun 8, 2010)

clockworks said:


> Isn't it just a question of scale? AFAIK, Rolex are the second biggest Swiss manufacturer, after Swatch/ETA. Their size means that they can justify the purchase cost of "robots". Don't ETA use "robots", too?


I don't know if ETA uses robots. Although, once you hit a certain volume you really have to or you can't continue expanding.

My point was that by utilizing robots to the exclusion of human craftsmanship, isn't Rolex giving up what makes Swiss watches have their cache'? If I were a Swiss manufacturer and I eliminated from my product line the thing that makes watches quintessentially Swiss, that would be a problem.

For ETA, I don't have an issue with them using robots. They sell their ebuches to other manufacturers who then put lots of hand work into them to customize them. Because the finished product that the customer buys still has hand work, the fact that the ebuche was mass produced doesn't seem as relevant to me.

If we were talking about cars instead of watches, the comparison could be between Toyota (or Lexus) mass produced cars vs. Rolls Royce hand made cars. The Toyota's measure of quality is its dependability and the predictability of what you're going to own when you buy any Toyota. The Rolls Royce is all about displaying the craftsmanship of the people who built the car by hand, although there may be some squeaks and quirks here and there.

Aren't Swiss watches more like the Rolls than the Lexus? And if a Swiss maker starts to mass produce Swiss Lexuses, but continues to label them Rolls Royces, aren't they still only making Lexuses?

Aaron


----------



## Disco You (Jun 22, 2010)

AaronC said:


> Aren't Swiss watches more like the Rolls than the Lexus? And if a Swiss maker starts to mass produce Swiss Lexuses, but continues to label them Rolls Royces, aren't they still only making Lexuses?
> 
> Aaron


Rolls Royce are no longer coach built entirely by hand like they used to be. They're just expensive BMWs afterall.

The difference, in my opinion, is the quality of parts, and the design of the movements. Expensive Swiss movements are more accurate than Japanese movements, how many Japanese movements are COSC chronometers?


----------



## Livius de Balzac (Oct 6, 2006)

The Swiss watch industry is everything from Swatch to Patek Philippe. The success factor for the Swiss watch industry was mass production with a high level of quality. Only the very high end brands are handmade.

Rolex, Omega and Breitling are mass produced high end brands, compared with cars, Mercedes-Benz, BMW or Audi. The â€œRolls-Royceâ€ of the watch industry is brands like Patek Philippe, Vacheron Constantin and Brequet.

Rolex has the biggest marketing department in the watch industry and they have created the myths about Rolex; â€œThe best watch in the worldâ€, â€œIt takes one full year to produce a Rolexâ€â€¦ A lot of people think about Rolex as a small old fashion factory with only a few old watchmakers manufacturing the watches by hand.

Rolex has never been â€œHaute Horologieâ€, a Rolex movement has more in common with a Seiko than a Patek Philippe movement. Rolex produces about 1.000.000 watches every year, they have about 20.000 employees. The watches are not made by robots, but the parts are made and finished by machines. The movements and watches are assembled by hand at assembly lines with watchmakers only at the control stations. The quality control is very high.

The productions of mechanical movements at ETA are very similar to the movement production at Rolex. Mass production, parts made and finished by machines and assembly lines. The high end ETA movements have a quality very similar to Rolex movements.

The Seiko Watch Group produces several brands, from Lorus to Credor. Grand Seiko and Credor are high end brands of a very high quality, and the most expensive models from Credor are made by hand. The quality is similar to Swiss high end brands.


----------



## AaronC (Jun 8, 2010)

Livius de Balzac said:


> The Swiss watch industry is everything from Swatch to Patek Philippe. The success factor for the Swiss watch industry was mass production with a high level of quality. Only the very high end brands are handmade.
> 
> Rolex, Omega and Breitling are mass produced high end brands, compared with cars, Mercedes-Benz, BMW or Audi. The â€œRolls-Royceâ€ of the watch industry is brands like Patek Philippe, Vacheron Constantin and Brequet.
> 
> ...


Hi Livius.

Thanks for all the great info.

I had thought of Rolex as comparable to Vacheron, etc., assuming that they produced their watches by hand in the old Swiss tradition. What really struck me from the Watchtime article is how similar their business model is to Seiko's. Seiko also makes their parts in automated factories and assembles them by hand, and the difference between their high end watches and their lower end ones is the quality of the finishes that the machines apply before assembly.

This is not a criticism of Seiko (or of Rolex), just an observation on how similar they are. To me the interesting thing was how different my mental image of Rolex was from the reality of their mass-production-based business model.

Aaron


----------



## Disco You (Jun 22, 2010)

AaronC said:


> To me the interesting thing was how different my mental image of Rolex was from the reality of their mass-production-based business model.


Well there's a simple answer as to why:



Livius de Balzac said:


> Rolex has the biggest marketing department in the watch industry


----------



## AaronC (Jun 8, 2010)

Disco You said:


> AaronC said:
> 
> 
> > To me the interesting thing was how different my mental image of Rolex was from the reality of their mass-production-based business model.
> ...


Right.

So, why do you think that Rolex offered a factory tour to Watchtime? They made a bid deal in the article how Rolex has never offered the media access to their factories, that this was a first, that Rolex is normally so secretive, etc.

If they've spent so much effort to create the myth of a bespoke Rolex, why destroy it by showing a reporter their mass production methods?

Aaron


----------



## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

What's actually wrong with automated mass production? CNC machines and robots, if properly set up, do a better job than even the most highly-skilled worker. Even back in the 1800's, machines were used to make parts, but a human had to fit the blanks into the machine by hand. The parts are assembled by trained workers, and the assemblies are checked by a skilled watchmaker. It's really not possible to do the job better, so why would the consumer feel let down?

As has been said already, Rolex watches aren't actually that expensive compared to other "high-end" marques. Seiko's top models aren't exactly cheap, either.

The difference is, Seiko also sell "cheap" watches (made in China and other low-wage countries), while Rolex just sell "expensive" watches. Whether Seiko actually make a profit on their cheaper models is open for debate.

While part of the Rolex brand image may be down to marketing, their quality control is arguably the best in any industry this side of NASA (and even they get things wrong!). This human intervention during the manufacturing process is what's important, not whether a robot cut and mounted the wheels. You can save a few pennies by using a robot, then spend a bit more on human QC, and end up with a better, more consistent, product.


----------



## AaronC (Jun 8, 2010)

Disco You said:


> AaronC said:
> 
> 
> > Aren't Swiss watches more like the Rolls than the Lexus? And if a Swiss maker starts to mass produce Swiss Lexuses, but continues to label them Rolls Royces, aren't they still only making Lexuses?
> ...


Hi Disco.

I was reading about the history of Seiko in the link below. On page 44 they proudly state that in 1968 the Swiss cancelled their annual Neuchatel chronometer competition once they saw how well the Japanese entry outperformed the previous year's Swiss winner. Then the Japanese entered the Geneva Observatory competition for the first time and took places four through ten, achieving first place over-all.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12811123/A-Journey-in-Time

The Japanese can clearly make a very accurate movement, and I don't know that Swiss movements are more accurate than Japanese ones. The WIKI below says that COSC certification is for Swiss watches, and that Seiko uses a more stringent test for their Grand Seiko watches. It seems to me that because the COSC certification is restricted to watches made in Switzerland, its just there for marketing advantage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COSC

Aaron


----------



## AaronC (Jun 8, 2010)

clockworks said:


> What's actually wrong with automated mass production? CNC machines and robots, if properly set up, do a better job than even the most highly-skilled worker. Even back in the 1800's, machines were used to make parts, but a human had to fit the blanks into the machine by hand. The parts are assembled by trained workers, and the assemblies are checked by a skilled watchmaker. It's really not possible to do the job better, so why would the consumer feel let down?
> 
> As has been said already, Rolex watches aren't actually that expensive compared to other "high-end" marques. Seiko's top models aren't exactly cheap, either.
> 
> ...


Hi clockworks.

Nothing wrong with automated mass production. And I agree that it has the potential to produce an excellent and highly consistent product.

But, when you think of Swiss watches do you think of robots? I don't. I think of the hand-finished surfaces of a Patek or Vacheron, and I assume that other Swiss manufacturers measure themselves against this standard.

Maybe its just because I'm new to watch collecting, but I assumed that Rolex would consider a hand-finished movement to be the ultimate, but that's not their business model.

Aaron


----------



## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

ahhhh.....its been a few weeks since the jap v swiss debate has come up 

my own view is that i prefer seiko over most, if not all swiss......

there is no doubt, that some rolex (as an example) just go on and on.....and on.....just so a cheap seiko will also.......

the debate will go on and on......and on, then bond will come along  and explain why everyone should buy a rolex, then someone else will come along and say alpha......then the debate will move along to ".......how can rolex charge Â£xxx for a sub" and then "........are they really worth Â£xxx, because the seiko i bought 120 years ago has never been serviced and hasn't lost a second in all that time....." 

its all subjective.....and also relative to you....buy a rolex if you like it.....and the same goes for a seiko.....its not a snobbish thing, or a status thing amongst WIs, its a "i really like that thing" and as an example, theres a guy on here that earns a 7 figure salary a year, and has the sort of lifestyle that i and i know a lot of others can only dream of.....but he only wears japanese watches......he can pretty much wear whatever he *likes* and he* l**ikes* seiko

like i said....its all relative man


----------



## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

Absolutely!

I've got loads of watches, from Seiko/Citizen/Rotary through Breitling and TAG up to Rolex/Ulyssee Nardin and Zenith. I've also got a few Chinese homage watches. The vast majority were bought secondhand.

I bought every single one because I liked them, and they've all been worn at least a few times.

I have to say, though, that the Sub has had the most wrist time.


----------



## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

AaronC said:


> Hi clockworks.
> 
> Nothing wrong with automated mass production. And I agree that it has the potential to produce an excellent and highly consistent product.
> 
> ...


I take your point about the idealised image of a wizened old watchmaker, crouched over his bench and hand-building a watch by candle light. It'd be nice to think this still happened.


----------



## AaronC (Jun 8, 2010)

mrteatime said:


> ahhhh.....its been a few weeks since the jap v swiss debate has come up


Hey Teatime.

Pretty funny. I had no idea that I was reviving a debate that has been dormant for all of a few weeks. :derisive:

I guess the Japanese need a Bond to remind everyone how cool their watches are. Maybe Godzilla could stomp on one but it would survive as good as new. Not quite as effective as Bond girls swooning, though. Must be something better than than Godzilla...

Aaron


----------



## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

AaronC said:


> mrteatime said:
> 
> 
> > ahhhh.....its been a few weeks since the jap v swiss debate has come up
> ...


its *mr*teaime 

the 'bond' i was refering to is the original bond who is a member of this forum......

this sort of debate will run and run of course.......and its what powers forums like this......like i said, i would always go the way of the seiko over a swiss....however, having handled many a good few rolex, i wouldn't discount the idea of getting one in the future.......i think the difference in the finish is what seperates the two.......the finish on a rolex sub is just superb and can in no way compare to that of a seiko 007 et al......

the marinemaster gets close, and the springdrive is, as everybody knows the best movt out there


----------



## AaronC (Jun 8, 2010)

clockworks said:


> I take your point about the idealised image of a wizened old watchmaker, crouched over his bench and hand-building a watch by candle light. It'd be nice to think this still happened.


Check out this photo.

http://www.thehourlounge.com/thread/view/rose-engine-engraving_37452_37498.html

Vacheron still does a lot of really high end hand work, although not by candlelight.

Aaron


----------



## Openended (Nov 4, 2009)

Jap watches are better quality for the money and just as accurate, if not more accurate (you just have to compare relative models) i.e. *not *a Rolex vs a SKX007 - one costs 3500+ pounds and the other 150 pounds. Japan make excellent watched without all the made in Swizerland marketing crab.


----------



## Guest (Jul 27, 2010)

mrteatime said:


> its not a snobbish thing, or a status thing amongst WIs


I believe i've experienced a bit of both in my own experience Shawn.

It seems to come though,from those who not only DO'NT know watches like they think they do [Conceited],But who may also try to have you believe that there is not much they do'nt know about watches ad infinitum [Deceitful].

I think a good policy,is to be true to your own tastes ...But certainly do'nt knock others



clockworks said:


> Absolutely!


Hmmmmm ?


----------

