# Highest Beat Vintage Citizen? .... It'S Electronic...



## Morris Minor

This is my first post here :thumbsup:

So rather than just say 'hello', I thought I'd share an interesting find I made recently. I collect vintage Citizen watches, and as I have researched their development I found the Cosmotron electronic line with which no doubt many of you are familiar. I have put together a movement table for Citizens from 1931 to 1974 and the Cosmotrons are in there - one movement that intrigued me, first produced in 1970, was a woman's model, known as the IC-12. IC for Integrated Circuit, and 12 for....you guessed it... beats per second. That's 43,200 beats per hour and was Citizen's fastest beat movement at that time, and I think, before or since. Known as the 5800 this is a very impressive 17j mini marvel imho. It is a small movement of course, for women's smaller watches.

However, I have now discovered one model for men using this movement - something I had not seen or heard of before. I've managed to get hold of two versions, in gold plate and stainless steel - the only two I have so far seen for sale. I rather like the simplicity of the white dial, the deco style numerals and the black frame hands. Here's the gp version, made in 1975:



















And the ss one, from 1974:



















I suspect they were only produced for a short while just as the quartz revolution began. Here's the movement:



















I've been in touch with Paul (Silver Hawk) and he has now added the movement pic to his site's gallery.

So there you are, a 12 bps electronic men's watch! B)

Morris Minor (aka Sweephand in one or two other places)


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## Silver Hawk

Welcome Stephen.









That SS 5800....I want, I want! :wub: Are you out there knirirr? :huh:

And a group shot of my lower beat Cosmotrons :


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## Chascomm

When I look at the 43,200bph IC-12 and the 'slow beat' 36,000bph Cosmotrons, I find myself wondering why they are habitually overlooked by enthusiasts of 36K mechanical watches. Given that these electronic watches use a balance-wheel and jewelled lever in their drive systems (the same as in the escapement of a mechanical watch), are subject to similar stresses in the critical components and must be built to the same exacting standards, surely they represent an equally impressive achievement?


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## Silver Hawk

Chascomm said:


> When I look at the 43,200bph IC-12 and the 'slow beat' 36,000bph Cosmotrons, I find myself wondering why they are habitually overlooked by enthusiasts of 36K mechanical watches.


A fear of batteries and an assumption that quartz must be involved...maybe?


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## Lkenny

Great 1st post

Lee


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## JTW

The SS model is very nice, interesting post.


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## Morris Minor




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## Morris Minor

Chascomm said:


> When I look at the 43,200bph IC-12 and the 'slow beat' 36,000bph Cosmotrons, I find myself wondering why they are habitually overlooked by enthusiasts of 36K mechanical watches.


Citizen's first electric watch is a leisurely 18,000 bph, some of the X8's are 21,600, with the later ones (78xx movements) being 36,000bph.

I have one of the 36k models, classic design and keeps very good time indeed:










Stephen


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## harryblakes7

Wow, never seen a Cosmotron before :tongue_ss: Really nice looking watch........


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## knirirr

Silver Hawk said:


> Welcome Stephen.
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> That SS 5800....I want, I want! :wub: Are you out there knirirr? :huh:


I am indeed here!

I've got that movement in a ladies' watch (which my other half does not like and won't wear), but I've never seen it in a man's. I am, of course, very envious!


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## Morris Minor

knirirr said:


> I am indeed here!
> 
> I've got that movement in a ladies' watch (which my other half does not like and won't wear), but I've never seen it in a man's. I am, of course, very envious!


Hi Knirirr, have you got a pic of the IC-12 ladies' watch? I don't think I've yet seen one of those...

Here's a pic of a pic of an X8 that used the same dial and case design as the men's 5800 model. This X8 was first produced in 1969 - the 5800 uses a plastic holder insert in that case to fit the much smaller movement:










Stephen


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## knirirr

Morris Minor said:


> Hi Knirirr, have you got a pic of the IC-12 ladies' watch? I don't think I've yet seen one of those...


Here it is, with one of mine (my favourite) shown for comparison:


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## Morris Minor

knirirr said:


> Here it is, with one of mine (my favourite) shown for comparison:


thanks for the pics  - did you know that the IC-12 was Citizen's most expensive watch at the time, prices went a lot higher than even their highest grade mechanical chronometers!

Stephen


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## knirirr

Morris Minor said:


> thanks for the pics  - did you know that the IC-12 was Citizen's most expensive watch at the time, prices went a lot higher than even their highest grade mechanical chronometers!


I did not know that.

Do you have any information on what sort of price Cosmotrons used to go for when new?


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## Morris Minor

knirirr said:


> Morris Minor said:
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for the pics  - did you know that the IC-12 was Citizen's most expensive watch at the time, prices went a lot higher than even their highest grade mechanical chronometers!
> 
> 
> 
> I did not know that.
> 
> Do you have any information on what sort of price Cosmotrons used to go for when new?
Click to expand...

I do indeed - I show it in the movement table I have compiled for vintage Citizens, which covers the period 1931 to 1974, so you'll find the X8's and Cosmotrons from 1966 onwards. The prices they retailed for at the time in Japan are shown in the far right column. Interesting to compare those prices with their mechanicals.

Here's the table: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.netherwood/Vintage%20Citizen%20Movement%20Table%20v1.5%20Secure.pdf

Another special thing about the X8s, which you may know already of course, is that Citizen did one model in a titanium case in 1970 - this may have been the first time any manufacturer used this material for this purpose. It was a chronometer model, and was the most expensive men's X8/Cosmotron, only beaten by the IC-12 for women. In fact the IC-12 was more expensive than Citizen's highest grade mechanical, the 'GC' (Glorious Citizen).

I haven't found an original price for the men's 5800 model I'm afraid.

Stephen


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## Silver Hawk

Morris Minor said:


> Here's the table: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.netherwood/Vintage%20Citizen%20Movement%20Table%20v1.5%20Secure.pdf


Nice table Stephen. Only glanced at it quickly but I did not see the HiSonics in there. What date were they produced? :huh:


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## Morris Minor

Silver Hawk said:


> Nice table Stephen. Only glanced at it quickly but I did not see the HiSonics in there. What date were they produced? :huh:


Thanks Paul - I've yet to include the HiSonic, which were first produced in 1971. I've not got so much reference info on them, not least the movement number! Citizen partnered Bulova to get these to the market I understand. Have you any info I could use?

Stephen


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## Morris Minor

Morris Minor said:


> Thanks Paul - I've yet to include the HiSonic, which were first produced in 1971. I've not got so much reference info on them, not least the movement number! Citizen partnered Bulova to get these to the market I understand. Have you any info I could use?
> 
> Stephen


Can now answer my own question, having found it in this forum! 

Stephen


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## Morris Minor

Got hold of a catalog pic from 1973 showing the IC-12 Chronometer woman's watch. According to the case code, it was cased in 14K white gold. The price at that time is interesting!!










Stephen


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## Morris Minor

Morris Minor said:


> Got hold of a catalog pic from 1973 showing the IC-12 Chronometer woman's watch. According to the case code, it was cased in 14K white gold. The price at that time is interesting!!
> 
> Stephen


After further deliberation, this watch is probably actually a man's model - the blue coding in the catalog covers men's watches - you guessed it, the pink sections cover womens' watches. The dimensions actually look similar to the men's Cosmotrons I have which use this movement. I hadn't heard of a man's 'IC-12' before though....

Stephen


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## bridgeman

One perhaps for the experts-Citizen 4-350464-s (pictures on google and japanese)looks much like the 42000 tiny movement but in a mens watch with 18 jewels rather than 17-serial 6021670-dead at minute ,has an AG3 batttery in-better to try a 325? any ideas or comments appreciated.


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## bridgeman

bit more research and pics-unsure whether 325 or 384 battery -325 in photo but Japanese site sr41=384

movement










watch










as before comment appreciated


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## Morris Minor

bridgeman said:


> bit more research and pics-unsure whether 325 or 384 battery -325 in photo but Japanese site sr41=384
> 
> movement


interesting question - these watches simply labeled 'electronic' are mid-1970's, but I've not been able to find much info about them as yet. Well none really! Would be good to see the case back markings on this one, since Citizen's usual approach is to stamp a movement number in that period - always very helpful  I found a case back pic of a similar 'electronic' model, on what looks to be a women's watch from 1974:










Now this one has 5835 on it - looks therefore to be based on the 5800, which is the 42,000bph movement. But since it's got '35' added, it may or may not run at that beat. It's definitely high beat! Btw I wasn't sure whether your movement shot shows 18 or 16 jewels - it looks more like 16 to me...If Citizen used a slower bph, say 36,000 in these, they may have removed one jewel so as to keep the highest beat version as higher jeweled as well. They certainly used jeweling as an indicator of quality and price.

My 5800's have sr41 or equivalent in them - that's what came with them, so I cannot say categorically that that is correct although they run well enough. They are 1.5v - other Citizen electronic watches at that time, i.e. the later Cosmotrons with 78xx movements use 1.3v batteries, i.e 325 whilst the early models with 08xx and 48xx movements need 1.5v..... Can you post a link to the Japanese site that has the battery info please?

Stephen


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## bridgeman

Well new 384 fitted by reputable jeweller and still not working.All looks clean and tidy to them and me so a mystery . Problem is its an ebay buy so in discussion with seller who is being really helpful. Anyway my pictures from today




























another set of numbers visible under movement

by typing in 4-35046s comes up with 2 Japanese sites

have found EDR58ss and cal0707-6 so may be a 5800-seems sadly it will be return to sender bt its a belting little movement


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## bridgeman

R.I.P.-couldnt fire it up so sadly returned to obliging ebay seller so still to find out what 42000bph sounds like.!


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## Silver Hawk

bridgeman said:


> so still to find out what 42000bph sounds like.!


Like an electric drill? :huh:


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## Morris Minor

Sounds like this (turn sound up to hear it properly):

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stephen.netherwood/Cosmotron%205800%2043k.wav

Stephen


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## bridgeman

thank you -worked a treat. hummer it aint but brilliant download.


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