# Record? "Swan" watch, movement



## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

My wife inherited a gold watch from her mother. There is no signature on the dial. I was hoping getting the movement out of the case would help identify it, but I have more questions than answers.

The movement is Swiss made, 15 jewels, 20mm diameter and signed "Swan". Mikrolisk tells me "Swan" was a trademark of the Record Watch Company of Tramelan. Does the movement look familiar to anyone? I can't see anything like it on Ranfft.

The case is 9ct gold, with a capital serif G. I can't make out the city mark. Would it be London?

The makers mark is "LA", which I've seen attributed to Louis Audemars on another Record watch. Is that right?


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## Balaton1109 (Jul 5, 2015)

8.75''' Record 103, included in the Classification Horlogère of 1936

Regards.


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## John_D (Jul 21, 2018)

Well the hallmark does appear to be the leopards head for London, so the capital 'G' would put it at 1942, which seems to fit in.....


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## Balaton1109 (Jul 5, 2015)

FWIW, here's one "LA" wordmark used by Louis Audemars, although there may have been others of which I'm not aware.

Regards.


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## John_D (Jul 21, 2018)

The makers mark looks suspiciously like this one (Louis Arnould- who was located at Crown Buildings, Cox's Court, London EC1)


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

If I may add a bit more info on Louis Arnould assay marks...

*L.A *Louis Arnould registered (1919) as a gold worker for Crown Watch Case Company Ltd, & Crown Watch case Company Ltd, Crown Buildings, Cox's Court, 'Little Britain' (honestly), EC1.

*LA *registered mark from 1925 at above address.

There was also Leon Almond of City Road, London, EC with the marks *L.A *& *LA, *but believe these are only to be found on pocket watches ?

Louis Audemars mark was recorded as *LA&Co.*

Hope this helps.

:thumbsup:

Nice timepiece, have several Swan/Record pieces from 30's-60's, will pop one on WRUW later.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

@Balaton1109 @John_D @Karrusel Thanks for all your help to identify this.

The watch was MIL's 21st birthday present from her step-parents. She was 21 in 1942,so that ties in with the date of the case. As they weren't a well off family, my wife thought the watch was probably bought second hand, but the dates suggest not. Very interesting about Louis Arnould too. It does seem to have been a very nice present.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Dear @spinynorman, I also feel that the "LA" mark is more likely to refer to the maker of the case. As a matter of interest, I wonder if you have looked up the serial number of the watch; apparently, you can download these serial numbers online from "castlemars.atwebpages.com > record-watch-companyserial-numbers"


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

> Dear @spinynorman, I also feel that the "LA" mark is more likely to refer to the maker of the case. As a matter of interest, I wonder if you have looked up the serial number of the watch; apparently, you can download these serial numbers online from "castlemars.atwebpages.com > record-watch-companyserial-numbers"


 I did see that site and ran away very fast when it offered me a zip file to download.


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## Balaton1109 (Jul 5, 2015)

spinynorman said:


> @Balaton1109 @John_D @Karrusel Thanks for all your help to identify this.
> 
> The watch was MIL's 21st birthday present from her step-parents. She was 21 in 1942,so that ties in with the date of the case. As they weren't a well off family, my wife thought the watch was probably bought second hand, but the dates suggest not. Very interesting about Louis Arnould too. It does seem to have been a very nice present.


 You're very welcome.


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## seasidesunshine (Dec 15, 2020)

Hope it's ok. to add to this thread - I have a very, very similar watch that belonged to my Grandma that I'm trying to find out a little more about. The hallmarks are different from those on the watch above, and for the life of me I can't seem to trace them.

The movement is Swiss Made, marked SWAN, and the case back shows the maker's mark 'LA' so from the above I can conclude it was probably made by Louis Arnould. But the hallmarks look like a 'c' in a circle and a square in a circle? Also marked with 9 375 as is the watch above.

I'd be really grateful for any insights!


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

seasidesunshine said:


> Hope it's ok. to add to this thread - I have a very, very similar watch that belonged to my Grandma that I'm trying to find out a little more about. The hallmarks are different from those on the watch above, and for the life of me I can't seem to trace them.
> 
> The movement is Swiss Made, marked SWAN, and the case back shows the maker's mark 'LA' so from the above I can conclude it was probably made by Louis Arnould. But the hallmarks look like a 'c' in a circle and a square in a circle? Also marked with 9 375 as is the watch above.
> 
> I'd be really grateful for any insights!


 Welcome to the forum. Hallmark punches are often indistinct, especially on small watches. The leopard's head can look like a blob. The 'C' suggests your watch would have been assembled in 1938, with a 9ct gold case. It's a lovely watch, and good to have the bracelet.


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## seasidesunshine (Dec 15, 2020)

Wow! That would be much earlier than I imagined - my Dad can remember her wearing it so I had believed it would probably date to the early sixties. She would only have been twelve in 1938 and sadly my great-grandmother died three years earlier, so it can't have been from her Mum.

At any rate, thank you very much for your response - it's really appreciated. And yes, it is an absolutely gorgeous watch - almost as lovely as my Grandma  Thanks again!


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

seasidesunshine said:


> Wow! That would be much earlier than I imagined - my Dad can remember her wearing it so I had believed it would probably date to the early sixties. She would only have been twelve in 1938 and sadly my great-grandmother died three years earlier, so it can't have been from her Mum.
> 
> At any rate, thank you very much for your response - it's really appreciated. And yes, it is an absolutely gorgeous watch - almost as lovely as my Grandma  Thanks again!


 Depending on the shape of the C it could be 1958. The light reflection in your picture makes it hard to see.


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## Balaton1109 (Jul 5, 2015)

.........and just to add that the movement looks to be a Record 107 (or related), which was in existence in the mid-1930s, whenever else.

Regards.


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## seasidesunshine (Dec 15, 2020)

Thank you both very much! I'm so impressed by the knowledge you have on here.

I've tried to get a better photo of the 'c' - it's quite faded on the case itself so not the easiest but:









Thanks again guys, you're stars.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Dear @seasidesunshine, I note that my esteemed Forum colleagues @spinynorman and @Balaton1109 have assisted you with your gold ladies watch, and looking at the pictures of the piece I would say that everything about it aesthetically indicates that it dates to the 1930s.

I have done a bit more digging online, and I have come across another Swan watch also from the 1930s - this example being an Art Deco gents wristwatch from the 1930s, nicely illustrated. This can be accessed at antiques-atlas.com/antique/a_1930s_mid-size_art_deco_swan_watch_by_record/as170a4101. The 15J hand-wind movement is signed "RWT" under the balance wheel, attributed to Record Watches, Tramelan, and once again it has the "SWAN" mark as on your watch. The notion that German language terms on Swiss watches must indicate a German origin or a watch made for the German market (as implied by the description of the "Boden Edelstahl" [trans. Caseback Stainless Steel] mark on the watch on Antiques Atlas) is not to be taken too seriously; German is one of the main languages spoken and used in Switzerland.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

seasidesunshine said:


> Thank you both very much! I'm so impressed by the knowledge you have on here.
> 
> I've tried to get a better photo of the 'c' - it's quite faded on the case itself so not the easiest but:
> 
> Thanks again guys, you're stars.


 All the evidence, including your latest photo, is pointing to a watch made in the 1930s. How and when it came to your grandma is something only inside family knowledge would unearth.


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## seasidesunshine (Dec 15, 2020)

Thank you both so much! Really brilliant horological insights and if it were made in the thirties, it's doing even better than I thought to still be running!

I unfortunately don't have anyone I can ask these days, but I'm starting to wonder whether it could have been passed down from her Grandma, who helped to bring her up after her Mum died.

You've given me some fascinating extra insights into a treasured reminder of my Grandma. Thanks so much again - I'm really grateful to you all


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