# German Nazi Pocket Watch



## Pob

I recently acquired this,

  

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It's pretty rough, but I haven't seen one like this before. 

Could any of you help with any info?

The watch pops up out of the outer ring to make a nice desk clock. 

I plan on getting it restored to something like it's former glory.


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## levon2807

there are acutally dedicated forums to military and Nazi items which are soooo knowledgable it's untrue!

If you google the "the military watch forum" or "wehrmacht awards forum" they should be good places to start.

Just remember that the Nazi forums usually have grand children of Nazi officers etc as members and so can be a little non-pc but not that much


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## Julian Latham

fftopic2:

Sorry, but can't reconcile that symbol and "restored to ...... former glory". I couldn't have such a piece in the house.

Purely an emotional reaction.


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## Julian Latham

Sorry - double tap.


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## Pob

Julian Latham said:


> fftopic2:
> 
> Sorry, but can't reconcile that symbol and "restored to ...... former glory". I couldn't have such a piece in the house.
> 
> Purely an emotional reaction.


I can understand what you mean Julian, but I believe that we have to keep hold of these things for future generations when the Nazis will be just a chapter in a history book. Imagine if we had chucked out anything related to the French during the Napoleonic era!

It does hold a certain sentimental value to me too, since my grandfather brought it home as a war souvenir and it's the only thing I have to remember him by.

oh, and thanks for the tip levon. I'll give that a try.


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## levon2807

Pob said:


> Julian Latham said:
> 
> 
> 
> fftopic2:
> 
> Sorry, but can't reconcile that symbol and "restored to ...... former glory". I couldn't have such a piece in the house.
> 
> Purely an emotional reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> I can understand what you mean Julian, but I believe that we have to keep hold of these things for future generations when the Nazis will be just a chapter in a history book. Imagine if we had chucked out anything related to the French during the Napoleonic era!
> 
> It does hold a certain sentimental value to me too, since my grandfather brought it home as a war souvenir and it's the only thing I have to remember him by.
> 
> oh, and thanks for the tip levon. I'll give that a try.
Click to expand...

No problem mate  as a published historical writer and hocker of antiques and collectables I don't see a problem with a pocket watch which belonged to a german in ww2 and has the ruling party's logo on it...in the same way as I'd have no problem with a boer war water bottle, Anglo-American 18th century gun, a 19th century Anglo-Australian bayonet, a British army colonial uniform used in India etc etc etc - they're all just objects, yes they come from periods of great oppression and slaughter but they still have historical value. Anyhow, who's to say they or their owners were ever involved in atrosities?


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## glug

Reminds me of this old girl that I saw recently in a German national collection.

Obviously not glorifying the Nazis but an historical artifact that I was fascinated to examine;










(ME 262)


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## HappyLad

I think the problem with Nazi items and especially the Swastika, is the belief that someone who is interested in such materials has some form of

allegiance with the Nazi doctrines.

I'm not saying this is true, but there is the doubt.....

Edit:

Oh, and the pic of the ME262 - notice no Swastika's!

There should be at least one on the tail, but its been painted out of history. I think that's more disturbing....


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## glug

HappyLad said:


> I think the problem with Nazi items and especially the Swastika, is the belief that someone who is interested in such materials has some form of
> 
> allegiance with the Nazi doctrines.
> 
> I'm not saying this is true, but there is the doubt.....
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Oh, and the pic of the ME262 - notice no Swastika's!
> 
> There should be at least one on the tail, but its been painted out of history. I think that's more disturbing....


I think you're onto something, there. This one's at the USAF museum;










The photo comes with;

Legal disclaimer

This image shows (or resembles) a symbol that was used by the National Socialist (NSDAP/Nazi) government of Germany or an organization closely associated to it, or another party which has been banned by the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany.

The use of insignia of organizations that have been banned in Germany (like the Nazi swastika or the arrow cross) may also be illegal in Austria, Hungary, Poland, Czech Republic, France, Brazil, Russia and other countries, depending on context. In Germany, the applicable law is paragraph 86a of the criminal code (StGB), in Poland â€" Art. 256 of the criminal code (Dz.U. 1997 nr 88 poz. 553).

Not sure or their actual reasoning. Perhaps trying to keep the lid on the underground Nazi movement that still exists?


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## HappyLad

glug said:


> Not sure or their actual reasoning. Perhaps trying to keep the lid on the underground Nazi movement that still exists?


Yes, I think its to prevent glorification.

But it does cause problems like with the ME262 and its historical context.

Going way off topic here....

But, of the 2 pics of the planes... which is the most menacing looking??

I think its definitely the one with the Swastika..


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## ollyhock

Julian Latham said:


> Sorry - double tap.


the guy that probably owned the watch will have just been serving his country and had no great love for the NSDAP

its a nice piece of history and should be shown, every goverment is corrupt especially ours after all we invented the concentration camp.


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## glug

HappyLad said:


> glug said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure or their actual reasoning. Perhaps trying to keep the lid on the underground Nazi movement that still exists?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I think its to prevent glorification.
> 
> But it does cause problems like with the ME262 and its historical context.
> 
> Going way off topic here....
> 
> But, of the 2 pics of the planes... which is the most menacing looking??
> 
> I think its definitely the one with the Swastika..
Click to expand...

I wouldn't fancy either on my tail but I rate the 262 along with the Mustang as one of the 'sexiest' planes of WW2.


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## mel

QUOTE:-

"The Swastika" is believed to be the oldest cross and certainly one of the oldest emblems in the world. It forms a combination of four "L's" standing for Luck, Light, Love and Life. It has been found in ancient Rome, excavations in Grecian cities, on Buddhist idols, on Chinese coins dated 315 B.C., and our Native American Southwest Indians use it as an amulet.

ENDQUOTE:

Which is long before it was adopted to become reviled as a symbol of the Nazi Party -(alwys imagine Churchill's voice, the way he said "Nahzi" :yes - and so it goes!

I wouldn't collect it (the watch) myself because of those connotations, but I would collect something earlier with the symbol if I really liked it. I've also read that which way round it is matters is actually :bull*******: , it comes both clockwise and anti-clockwise and there's no difference in the symbolism involved. :yes:


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## Clum

Yup, they have the symbol all over the place in India especially in Temples as it's sacred to Hindus or something.


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## ollyhock

mel said:


> QUOTE:-
> 
> "The Swastika" is believed to be the oldest cross and certainly one of the oldest emblems in the world. It forms a combination of four "L's" standing for Luck, Light, Love and Life. It has been found in ancient Rome, excavations in Grecian cities, on Buddhist idols, on Chinese coins dated 315 B.C., and our Native American Southwest Indians use it as an amulet.
> 
> ENDQUOTE:
> 
> Which is long before it was adopted to become reviled as a symbol of the Nazi Party -(alwys imagine Churchill's voice, the way he said "Nahzi" :yes - and so it goes!
> 
> I wouldn't collect it (the watch) myself because of those connotations, but I would collect something earlier with the symbol if I really liked it. I've also read that which way round it is matters is actually :bull*******: , it comes both clockwise and anti-clockwise and there's no difference in the symbolism involved. :yes:


the nazi swastika is the opposite way round to the religeous emblem, hitler walked past the churchevery day in vienna and adopted it for the party logo but swapped its direction round


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## EddyW

Hi everyone

I personally have no ill feelings towards the watch, Remembering that the poor bugger that had it originally probably popped his clogs with the aid of a

British allied bullet or the like. They were probably conscripted without any option but to do what they were told, or die anyway.

Sorry your grandads gone but without the likes of him, my own father, and countless others we would be saluting that emblem and speaking German

That emblem only causes grief if you let it. and remember it's the watch that holds the interest first and then the history behind it.

No offence to anyone intended.

Cheers EDD


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## ollyhock

EddyW said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> I personally have no ill feelings towards the watch, Remembering that the poor bugger that had it originally probably popped his clogs with the aid of a
> 
> British allied bullet or the like. They were probably conscripted without any option but to do what they were told, or die anyway.
> 
> Sorry your grandads gone but without the likes of him, my own father, and countless others we would be saluting that emblem and speaking German
> 
> That emblem only causes grief if you let it. and remember it's the watch that holds the interest first and then the history behind it.
> 
> No offence to anyone intended.
> 
> Cheers EDD


second that


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## Mikrolisk

To return to the main topic of this thread:

This watch was made by the Kienzle company in germany. The chances are nearly by 100%, that the back lid symbol was made later - and is not original.

Alas there are still people who wants to buy that crap.

Andreas


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## PH1

I know this is an old thread, but I found it yesterday when I was searching around the internet for pictures of fake Third Reich objects.

I'm not sure about this pocket watch. The swastika doesn't look political. The arms are too thin to be an N.S.D.A.P. swastika. It looks more like an art deco luck symbol.

"Crometa" was a brand name owned by german Kienzle. I've seen chromed Crometa table clocks. They also made cheap pocket watches, and perhaps the chromed model also was called Crometa. Kienzle still exists today, so you can contact them for information.

The question is why it has a swastika. It WAS a popular luck symbol during the Art deco period (ca 1920-1935), but after 1923 (The Hitler Putsch) the swastika would have been associated with the N.S.D.A.P. There is a possibility that the watch was made in 1933-34 with the swastika to be "in tune with the times", but before the proportions and use of the symbol became more regulated. But it can also have been made before Hitler was known and sporting a simple luck symbol.


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## Guest

PH1 said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I found it yesterday when I was searching around the internet for pictures of fake Third Reich objects.
> 
> I'm not sure about this pocket watch. The swastika doesn't look political. The arms are too thin to be an N.S.D.A.P. swastika. It looks more like an art deco luck symbol.
> 
> "Crometa" was a brand name owned by german Kienzle. I've seen chromed Crometa table clocks. They also made cheap pocket watches, and perhaps the chromed model also was called Crometa. Kienzle still exists today, so you can contact them for information.
> 
> The question is why it has a swastika. It WAS a popular luck symbol during the Art deco period (ca 1920-1935), but after 1923 (The Hitler Putsch) the swastika would have been associated with the N.S.D.A.P. There is a possibility that the watch was made in 1933-34 with the swastika to be "in tune with the times", but before the proportions and use of the symbol became more regulated. But it can also have been made before Hitler was known and sporting a simple luck symbol.


Slightly off topic but Rene Guenon has a book "Symbolism of the Cross" One of the chapters talks about the Swastika which was a commonly used sacred symbol before the Nazis totally abused it. Its still found and used in many parts of Asia as a religious symbol though.


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## harryblakes7

And going even more off topic it started with the Roman god Tammuz, and they dropped the T to make it a cross. Most crosses come from egyptian era and was a fertility symbol. The pagans adopted this symbol for there churches in the 3rd century AD. And the "man on the cross" actually died on a stake, greek "stauros" not a cross

I guess i'm one of the few who look at watches in the museum AND also at the other stuff as well!! Natural History Museum in London has a few nice watches & early clocks. Greenwich museum is the place to head to though.........

If your brave, have a look at the egyptiam mummies still wrapped up!!! oooooh mummy!! :swoon: :swoon: :swoon:


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## martinzx

harryblakes7 said:


> And going even more off topic it started with the Roman god Tammuz, and they dropped the T to make it a cross. Most crosses come from egyptian era and was a fertility symbol. The pagans adopted this symbol for there churches in the 3rd century AD. And the "man on the cross" actually died on a stake, greek "stauros" not a cross


Not true, Roman Crucifixion is well documented the stake or stauros was attached to a pole/timber & then it was dropped into a hole in the ground, in fact that was when most of the damage was done.

(your description describes was the sect Jehovah's Witnesses now believe, although they used to state differently! )

Christian use of the cross as a religious symbol was recorded late 1st/2nd Century AD


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## harryblakes7

that's interesting........... it was not that long ago, just up the road from me, that they burn't people alive for reading the bible on a stake, yet worshipped jesus on a cross......... will have to do some more "Google" ing.....

This is from the Rev Alexander Hislop who says about pagan God Tammuz

http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/pagan/origin_of_cross.htm

watches are so much simplier :yes: Apologies if gone off topic


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## PH1

robert75 said:


> Slightly off topic but Rene Guenon has a book "Symbolism of the Cross" One of the chapters talks about the Swastika which was a commonly used sacred symbol before the Nazis totally abused it. Its still found and used in many parts of Asia as a religious symbol though.


Well, the name "swastika" is sanskrit and means "well-being". It's not only an asian symbol. It's true that it's common in hinduism and buddhism, but it has been used by native americans and even jews. In northern Europe the symbol was used during the iron age, as a symbol for Odin or/also as a Sun symbol. The political symbol used in Germany was called "Hakenkreuz" (hooked cross), and was borrowed from the nordic Sun symbol. The VÃ¶lkish movement in Germany saw it as a symbol for our indo-european ancestry and used it in the clockwise position to strengthen the meaning as a sun symbol. The VÃ¶lkish movement promoted paganism, and the NSDAP wanted to play down on christianity and create new traditions and renew the worship of the Winter Solstice (when the Sun comes back and bringing light and warmth), and they connected it with celebration of the mothers as life bringers.

For example, the songwriter Hans Baumann (1914-1988) wrote the christmas song "Hohe Nacht der klaren Sterne" in 1936, that is still popular. http://ingeb.org/Lieder/hohenach.html I will try to translate the text:

High night of bright stars,

Stands like a wide bridges

Over a deep distance,

Our hearts go

High night with large fires,

That stand on every mountain,

Today the earth has to renew itself

As a newborn child

Mothers, you are all fires,

You have placed all the stars

Mothers, deep in your hearts

Beats the heart of the whole wide world

The song in german: www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi_lUVtGz94

So one can say that the german political hooked-cross was a part of re-creating a pagan sentiment with the roots in the germanic iron age, and not directly a loan from asian religions as it's sometimes claimed.

Please excuse my bad english.


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## wookie

ollyhock said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> 
> QUOTE:-
> 
> "The Swastika" is believed to be the oldest cross and certainly one of the oldest emblems in the world. It forms a combination of four "L's" standing for Luck, Light, Love and Life. It has been found in ancient Rome, excavations in Grecian cities, on Buddhist idols, on Chinese coins dated 315 B.C., and our Native American Southwest Indians use it as an amulet.
> 
> ENDQUOTE:
> 
> Which is long before it was adopted to become reviled as a symbol of the Nazi Party -(alwys imagine Churchill's voice, the way he said "Nahzi" :yes - and so it goes!
> 
> I wouldn't collect it (the watch) myself because of those connotations, but I would collect something earlier with the symbol if I really liked it. I've also read that which way round it is matters is actually :bull*******: , it comes both clockwise and anti-clockwise and there's no difference in the symbolism involved. :yes:
> 
> 
> 
> the nazi swastika is the opposite way round to the religeous emblem, hitler walked past the churchevery day in vienna and adopted it for the party logo but swapped its direction round
Click to expand...

it's used both ways round all over india/asia in fact you see it more right facing than left


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## Pob

PH1 said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I found it yesterday when I was searching around the internet for pictures of fake Third Reich objects.
> 
> I'm not sure about this pocket watch. The swastika doesn't look political. The arms are too thin to be an N.S.D.A.P. swastika. It looks more like an art deco luck symbol.
> 
> "Crometa" was a brand name owned by german Kienzle. I've seen chromed Crometa table clocks. They also made cheap pocket watches, and perhaps the chromed model also was called Crometa. Kienzle still exists today, so you can contact them for information.
> 
> The question is why it has a swastika. It WAS a popular luck symbol during the Art deco period (ca 1920-1935), but after 1923 (The Hitler Putsch) the swastika would have been associated with the N.S.D.A.P. There is a possibility that the watch was made in 1933-34 with the swastika to be "in tune with the times", but before the proportions and use of the symbol became more regulated. But it can also have been made before Hitler was known and sporting a simple luck symbol.


Thanks PH, that certainly seems most likely. The case feels and looks very 'Deco', and can't be a post war addition since my grandad's had it since the war.....and, yes, I know it's just a cheap everyday watch, but it's still worth saving to me.


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