# Molnija 3601 3602 3603 Differences ?



## djw

I have a few Molnija pocket watches which I use as every day watches , but not knowing much about them I am asking if someone can help me. As far as I know the 3601 has 15 rubies and the central ruby has a brass casing just like the Cortebert movement . the 3602 has 18 rubies and the central ruby does not have the brass casing , the 3603 has shock protection but seems identical to the 3602 to my untrained eye. Can you tell me if my beliefs are right and also if there is a way to tell just by looking if a movement is a 3603 or 3602 if they don't have it stamped on. Thanks. Sorry for my amateurish way of describing the movements.


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## Vaurien

djw said:


> I have a few Molnija pocket watches which I use as every day watches , but not knowing much about them I am asking if someone can help me. As far as I know the 3601 has 15 rubies and the central ruby has a brass casing just like the Cortebert movement . the 3602 has 18 rubies and the central ruby does not have the brass casing , the 3603 has shock protection but seems identical to the 3602 to my untrained eye. Can you tell me if my beliefs are right and also if there is a way to tell just by looking if a movement is a 3603 or 3602 if they don't have it stamped on. Thanks. Sorry for my amateurish way of describing the movements.


Looking at the russian watch coding explanation by Netgrafik, you can see the differences between these three movements. ^_^

First 2 digits (36 for yours) is the diameter size of movement,in mm.

Last 2 digits meanings:

01: antishock, but no second hand

02: second hand in subdial, no antishock

03: second hand in subdial, with antishock

The number of rubies is not important to decide the code of movements; and Molnjia movements have a variety of number of rubies: not only 15, but also 8 or 7.


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## Chascomm

Vaurien said:


> djw said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a few Molnija pocket watches which I use as every day watches , but not knowing much about them I am asking if someone can help me. As far as I know the 3601 has 15 rubies and the central ruby has a brass casing just like the Cortebert movement . the 3602 has 18 rubies and the central ruby does not have the brass casing , the 3603 has shock protection but seems identical to the 3602 to my untrained eye. Can you tell me if my beliefs are right and also if there is a way to tell just by looking if a movement is a 3603 or 3602 if they don't have it stamped on. Thanks. Sorry for my amateurish way of describing the movements.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the russian watch coding explanation by Netgrafik, you can see the differences between these three movements. ^_^
> 
> First 2 digits (36 for yours) is the diameter size of movement,in mm.
> 
> Last 2 digits meanings:
> 
> 01: antishock, but no second hand
> 
> 02: second hand in subdial, no antishock
> 
> 03: second hand in subdial, with antishock
> 
> The number of rubies is not important to decide the code of movements; and Molnjia movements have a variety of number of rubies: not only 15, but also 8 or 7.
Click to expand...

Following on from that, so far as I'm aware, the only variants ever made of the Molnija movement were:

3600 - no seconds, not shockproof (primarily for Braille watches)

3602 - subdial seconds, not shockproof (the common version, also includes the skeleton variant)

3603 - subdial seconds, shockproof (the later versions, particularly used in wristwatches by other manufacturers)

'Ural' - this would have been called 3608 if the codes had existed at the time i.e. centre seconds, not shockproof


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## djw

Chascomm said:


> Vaurien said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> djw said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a few Molnija pocket watches which I use as every day watches , but not knowing much about them I am asking if someone can help me. As far as I know the 3601 has 15 rubies and the central ruby has a brass casing just like the Cortebert movement . the 3602 has 18 rubies and the central ruby does not have the brass casing , the 3603 has shock protection but seems identical to the 3602 to my untrained eye. Can you tell me if my beliefs are right and also if there is a way to tell just by looking if a movement is a 3603 or 3602 if they don't have it stamped on. Thanks. Sorry for my amateurish way of describing the movements.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the russian watch coding explanation by Netgrafik, you can see the differences between these three movements. ^_^
> 
> First 2 digits (36 for yours) is the diameter size of movement,in mm.
> 
> Last 2 digits meanings:
> 
> 01: antishock, but no second hand
> 
> 02: second hand in subdial, no antishock
> 
> 03: second hand in subdial, with antishock
> 
> The number of rubies is not important to decide the code of movements; and Molnjia movements have a variety of number of rubies: not only 15, but also 8 or 7.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Following on from that, so far as I'm aware, the only variants ever made of the Molnija movement were:
> 
> 3600 - no seconds, not shockproof (primarily for Braille watches)
> 
> 3602 - subdial seconds, not shockproof (the common version, also includes the skeleton variant)
> 
> 3603 - subdial seconds, shockproof (the later versions, particularly used in wristwatches by other manufacturers)
> 
> 'Ural' - this would have been called 3608 if the codes had existed at the time i.e. centre seconds, not shockproof
Click to expand...


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## djw

Ok thanks for the replies. I have looked at the Netgrafik link and it is useful however as the author himself admits.

"The information displayed here has been gathered from a wide variety of sources, of varying accuracy. Italics have been used to indicate records where some uncertainty exists.

- As usual, this is a work in progress."

And in fact the Molnija 3601 in all watches and images that I have seen does have a sub dial so that disagrees with the 01 part of the code. The Molnija movements that I am referring to are the three I mentioned 3601 , 3602 , 3603 which are derived from the Cortebert movement used by Rolex in the 1930's and 40's and I believe that these three Molnija movements only ever had 15 or 18 rubies so Molnija movements with 7 or 8 rubies may be for another movement that I am not aware of but would be glad to know about. My question still remains , is the brass casing around the central ruby diagnostic of the 3601 Molnija movement.? This feature is clearly visible and also clearly different to the central ruby in the 3602 and 3603 Molnija movements which does not have a brass casing (if casing is the right term?) and secondly is the 15 rubies also diagnostic of the 3601 Molnija movement ?

Thanks for any further help.


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## Vaurien

djw said:


> Ok thanks for the replies. I have looked at the Netgrafik link and it is useful however as the author himself admits.
> 
> "The information displayed here has been gathered from a wide variety of sources, of varying accuracy. Italics have been used to indicate records where some uncertainty exists.
> 
> - As usual, this is a work in progress."
> 
> And in fact the Molnija 3601 in all watches and images that I have seen does have a sub dial so that disagrees with the 01 part of the code. The Molnija movements that I am referring to are the three I mentioned 3601 , 3602 , 3603 which are derived from the Cortebert movement used by Rolex in the 1930's and 40's and I believe that these three Molnija movements only ever had 15 or 18 rubies so Molnija movements with 7 or 8 rubies may be for another movement that I am not aware of but would be glad to know about. My question still remains , is the brass casing around the central ruby diagnostic of the 3601 Molnija movement.? This feature is clearly visible and also clearly different to the central ruby in the 3602 and 3603 Molnija movements which does not have a brass casing (if casing is the right term?) and secondly is the 15 rubies also diagnostic of the 3601 Molnija movement ?
> 
> Thanks for any further help.


Could you possibly post some pictures of 3 movements?


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## djw

Vaurien said:


> djw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok thanks for the replies. I have looked at the Netgrafik link and it is useful however as the author himself admits.
> 
> "The information displayed here has been gathered from a wide variety of sources, of varying accuracy. Italics have been used to indicate records where some uncertainty exists.
> 
> - As usual, this is a work in progress."
> 
> And in fact the Molnija 3601 in all watches and images that I have seen does have a sub dial so that disagrees with the 01 part of the code. The Molnija movements that I am referring to are the three I mentioned 3601 , 3602 , 3603 which are derived from the Cortebert movement used by Rolex in the 1930's and 40's and I believe that these three Molnija movements only ever had 15 or 18 rubies so Molnija movements with 7 or 8 rubies may be for another movement that I am not aware of but would be glad to know about. My question still remains , is the brass casing around the central ruby diagnostic of the 3601 Molnija movement.? This feature is clearly visible and also clearly different to the central ruby in the 3602 and 3603 Molnija movements which does not have a brass casing (if casing is the right term?) and secondly is the 15 rubies also diagnostic of the 3601 Molnija movement ?
> 
> Thanks for any further help.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you possibly post some pictures of 3 movements?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I cant put any pics up as the only camera that I own is a 60 years old film camera. I am something of a Neanderthal and somewhat incompetent with the internet and similar stuff. There are images online but I don't know how to copy them to elsewhere. While I am grateful for your interest in asking my original question I was hoping to find someone who just knows this kind of stuff about Molnija pocket watches.... I have yesterday ordered a book about Russian watches and am hoping for some help from it.


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## Chascomm

djw said:


> Ok thanks for the replies. I have looked at the Netgrafik link and it is useful however as the author himself admits.
> 
> "The information displayed here has been gathered from a wide variety of sources, of varying accuracy. Italics have been used to indicate records where some uncertainty exists.
> 
> - As usual, this is a work in progress."
> 
> And in fact the Molnija 3601 in all watches and images that I have seen does have a sub dial so that disagrees with the 01 part of the code. The Molnija movements that I am referring to are the three I mentioned 3601 , 3602 , 3603 which are derived from the Cortebert movement used by Rolex in the 1930's and 40's and I believe that these three Molnija movements only ever had 15 or 18 rubies so Molnija movements with 7 or 8 rubies may be for another movement that I am not aware of but would be glad to know about. My question still remains , is the brass casing around the central ruby diagnostic of the 3601 Molnija movement.? This feature is clearly visible and also clearly different to the central ruby in the 3602 and 3603 Molnija movements which does not have a brass casing (if casing is the right term?) and secondly is the 15 rubies also diagnostic of the 3601 Molnija movement ?
> 
> Thanks for any further help.


Neither have I seen 7 jewel version of the Molnija or other 36mm Soviet movements derived from Cortebert. 7 jewels was not uncommon in the 43mm Type-1 in the war years.

Where have you seen a movement identified as 'Molnija 3601'? What kind of a watch is it in and does it have shockproofing? I have never seen such a movement.

The codes for 00, 01, 02 and 03 are commonly used ones and are not in doubt. There are many other Soviet movements using these codes with the same meaning eg. Luch 1801, ZIM 2602, Vostok 2603, Vostok 2403, Zarja 1800, Poljot 2200, Chaika 1200, Chaika 1601, Raketa 2601 etc.

The Molnija 3602 has been produced in 15, 17 and 18 jewel versions. The 18 and (rare) 17 jewel versions have a centre jewel. The 15 jewel has a brass bearing. The number of jewels does not influence the calibre code of a Soviet movement. Such variants may sometimes be identified by an alphanumeric suffix e.g. 2612.1, 2609HA, 2409A, 2614.2H etc.


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## storyteller

This looks like the most exhaustive version of Molnija family story (http://watch-wiki.de/index.php?title=Werkfamilie_Molnia).


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## Vaurien

Chascomm said:


> Neither have I seen 7 jewel version of the Molnija or other 36mm Soviet movements derived from Cortebert. 7 jewels was not uncommon in the 43mm Type-1 in the war years.


You're right, I've mistaken Type-1 for Molnija :no2:



storyteller said:


> This looks like the most exhaustive version of Molnija family story (http://watch-wiki.de/index.php?title=Werkfamilie_Molnia).


Hallo and wellcome, Storyteller! 

Very interesting site the "Watch-Wiki" ! It's a pity that the most interesting info are only in German, though


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## djw

Vaurien said:


> Chascomm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neither have I seen 7 jewel version of the Molnija or other 36mm Soviet movements derived from Cortebert. 7 jewels was not uncommon in the 43mm Type-1 in the war years.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I've mistaken Type-1 for Molnija :no2:
> 
> 
> 
> storyteller said:
> 
> 
> 
> This looks like the most exhaustive version of Molnija family story (http://watch-wiki.de/index.php?title=Werkfamilie_Molnia).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hallo and wellcome, Storyteller!
> 
> Very interesting site the "Watch-Wiki" ! It's a pity that the most interesting info are only in German, though
Click to expand...

Pic of 3601 Molnija movement on this page http://homageforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2030 I hope the link works.


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## Vaurien

djw said:


> Pic of 3601 Molnija movement on this page http://homageforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2030 I hope the link works.


I have that same movement in a Slava Molnija pocket watch:










It's a 3602:


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## storyteller

Hi Vaurien,

it's your posting about Vostok Precision that led me to this excellent forum via google. Some day I will discover my Grail...

Regarding Molnija movements - the article linked in my previous posting displays two types of 3602 early movements - 3602a without central jewel (15 jewels) and 3602b with central jewel (16 jewels).


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## djw

storyteller said:


> Hi Vaurien,
> 
> it's your posting about Vostok Precision that led me to this excellent forum via google. Some day I will discover my Grail...
> 
> Regarding Molnija movements - the article linked in my previous posting displays two types of 3602 early movements - 3602a without central jewel (15 jewels) and 3602b with central jewel (16 jewels).


 Hi the 3602a is the one referred to by some as the 3601 and it is very close in appearance to the Cortebert 620 see some images on this link http://www.homageforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&p=15940


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## Chascomm

djw said:


> Pic of 3601 Molnija movement on this page http://homageforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2030 I hope the link works.


The correct designation for that movement is ChK-6, which you can see stamped on the movement, along with the 2nd Moscow Watch Factory stamp and the date for the 1st quarter of 1952.

I'm not sure on what basis the owner referred to it as a 3601.

ChK-6 was the early designation for the Cortebert-like movement when it was made by a couple of factories. In the early 1960s, the standard calibre codes were introduced and this movement became designated 3602.


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## citizenhell

Does anyone have case sizes for these Molnija movements? I'm looking into buying a Molnija watch but there are a few frankens out there. Most are obvious as they have 50mm dials, but I've spotted a couple of nice ones which are in 43mm cases with 39mm dials. Trouble is they seem to do small pockets watches around this size also. Anyone know if this is the right size for a watch rather than a pocket watch squeezed into a watch case, or should the genuine watch faces be even smaller.


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## Vaurien

A Molnija wristwatch? :thumbsdown:

Mmmmm.... I'd be very cautious. Those I've seen are ALL fakes :wallbash:


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## citizenhell

Vaurien said:


> A Molnija wristwatch? :thumbsdown:
> 
> Mmmmm.... I'd be very cautious. Those I've seen are ALL fakes :wallbash:


That's why I'm being cautious







I haven't seen anything that is smaller than the usual pocket watches that they do.

Might just have to bag a pocket watch & start wearing a waistcoat 

Cheers, Ian.


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## Vaurien

citizenhell said:


> Might just have to bag a pocket watch & start wearing a waistcoat
> 
> Cheers, Ian.


That would be very stylish! :man_in_love:

All the girls will be in love for ...


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## citizenhell

Vaurien said:


> citizenhell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Might just have to bag a pocket watch & start wearing a waistcoat
> 
> Cheers, Ian.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be very stylish! :man_in_love:
> 
> All the girls will be in love for ...
Click to expand...

Me in a waistcoat isn't a pretty sight









More :bad: than :wub:


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## djw

Chascomm said:


> djw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pic of 3601 Molnija movement on this page http://homageforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2030 I hope the link works.
> 
> 
> 
> The correct designation for that movement is ChK-6, which you can see stamped on the movement, along with the 2nd Moscow Watch Factory stamp and the date for the 1st quarter of 1952.
> 
> I'm not sure on what basis the owner referred to it as a 3601.
> 
> ChK-6 was the early designation for the Cortebert-like movement when it was made by a couple of factories. In the early 1960s, the standard calibre codes were introduced and this movement became designated 3602.
Click to expand...

Ok thanks Chascomm I have done a little research (Google) and see that what you say is apparently correct 3601 is used as a synonym for ChK-6 , the former designation perhaps being invented so as to fit in with the other model numbers 3600 , 3602 and 3603 so as to make it all nice and tidy if unfortunately erroneous. 3602a is another invented designation for the ChK-6 and 3602b has been used for the 18 ruby slightly different movement usually referred to as just 3602 which is how it is stamped on such movements.I think that the movement numbers problem is now solved.


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## Horolgy

Yes, reviving a very old thread here....though I must address the excellent information provided here on the Molnija movements, types, etc. :thumbsup:

Currently I have a Junkers (anyone every hear of that brand name manufacturer?) 6434 ATLANTIK FLUG wrist watch with a 3603 movement in it.

The Junkers manufacturer still exist though has discontinued this particular style watch.

I purchased the watch brand new and have had now coming up on close to 30 years. Nothing fancy or high end though I love watch since it was one of my very first time pieces that I acquired starting off my humble watch collection (30-40 watches now).

It is German brand watch and still keeps excellent and accurate time to this very day.

Thing now is that a slight fog (due to moisture?) has slowly started to develop inside the Crystal and well it's time to replace the gasket(s) on it after all these years.


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## JoT

Horolgy said:


> Yes, reviving a very old thread here....though I must address the excellent information provided here on the Molnija movements, types, etc. :thumbsup:
> 
> Currently I have a Junkers (anyone every hear of that brand name manufacturer?) 6434 ATLANTIK FLUG wrist watch with a 3603 movement in it.
> 
> The Junkers manufacturer still exist though has discontinued this particular style watch.
> 
> I purchased the watch brand new and have had now coming up on close to 30 years. Nothing fancy or high end though I love watch since it was one of my very first time pieces that I acquired starting off my humble watch collection (30-40 watches now).
> 
> It is German brand watch and still keeps excellent and accurate time to this very day.
> 
> Thing now is that a slight fog (due to moisture?) has slowly started to develop inside the Crystal and well it's time to replace the gasket(s) on it after all these years.


 Welcome to the forum and good to read your old Junkers is still going, I am not sure the Junkers watches made today are the same company. I am sure Junkers were made by a company called POINTtec who rebranded them as "Iron Annie" about 3 years ago, the watches then reappeared being made by another company called Junkers Uhren!

The Molnija movement are very robust so you should have many more years of use


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## Horolgy

JoT said:


> Welcome to the forum and good to read your old Junkers is still going, I am not sure the Junkers watches made today are the same company. I am sure Junkers were made by a company called POINTtec who rebranded them as "Iron Annie" about 3 years ago, the watches then reappeared being made by another company called Junkers Uhren!
> 
> The Molnija movement are very robust so you should have many more years of use


 Thank you JoT for the warm welcoming reception.

You are definitely correct about the most current Junker watches are not being made by the same company in our current time. As I found out the company had discontinued that particular style years ago.

I found this out when i recently contacted Junkers, directly., inquiring about my particular style model 6434 watch. They sent me an email referring to (as you pointed out) POINTtec. When I contacted them, they in turn seemed as though they wanted nothing to do with my watch!?

They did not answer any of my specific questions concerning my watch?

They instead referred me to a third party....known as "bmctimeworks"?

Found out that they are just a small time watch and jewelry repair place in North Chicago?


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