# What Watch?



## paullmel (Feb 4, 2011)

Hi everyone, I am new to this forum and wanted some advise. I am looking to buy a Gold full hunter pocket watch (for myself and as an investment)but have no idea if I should be buying an antique or new piece. I have seen many watches of differing price on ebay but am reluctant to buy from ebay because of the scammers ( the 1936 Olympic games watch being one example). So what I am asking for is recommendations as to make of watch and legitimate stockist.

Many Thanks, Paul.


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## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

Hi Paul and welcome to







This is such a great forum and very addictive!!

As regards your question 2nd hand is probably the way to go as a brand new Gold pocket watch is going to be serious dosh..... Where to buy? well some watches are sold on here, some jewellers have a second hand section, or a local auction house near you, you just got to keep your ear to the ground, that's half the fun is the chase!!


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## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

Questions, questions, questions and more questions of questions of questions to be asked of questions.

Do you want GOLD? Or do you want GOLD FILLED?

Solid gold pocket watches cost an arm and a leg. Gold-filled costs a fraction thereof.

Certainly buy second-hand/antique/vintage watches. Modern 'gold' pocket watches are all gold-plated, and take it from one who knows, you don't want one of those. The gold rubs off in a few months and you're left with an ugly pice of crap.

Don't buy the watch as an investment. Buy it to wear it. Most pocketwatches are not worth a great deal of money.

But certainly buy an antique.


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## paullmel (Feb 4, 2011)

Harry, many thanks for your good advice.

Shangus, You get out of the wrong side of the bed? I don't want gold plated or gold filled. I do want a pocket watch to wear and given the fact that gold increases in value over the years it makes sense (to me) that it would also be a good investment should i wish to sell in the future. My personal style is to buy something at an affordable price and then trade upwards as and when i can afford it. I don't know a great deal about pocket watches and would be interested to hear opinions/recommendations as to makes etc. Is waltham the best make or rolex? I know, 'questions questions! lol, but if i don't ask i will never know.

With my kindest Regards, Paul.


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## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

You don't want gold-plated? Good. Don't buy it. It's not worth it.

I recommend gold FILLED because it has the look of solid gold without the price-tag.

A SOLID GOLD watch costs a lot of money. So factor that into your budget. The fact that it's a hunter-case watch will probably add to this price. Considerably. I've never seen a solid gold vintage pocket-watch selling for under $500. And that's not including the money you'd have to pay to get it serviced (add at least another $200).

So you want a gold hunter-case pocket-watch to wear.

You will also need a watch-chain. Depending on HOW you intend to wear the watch, you will either need an Albert chain, to wear the watch with a coat or a waistcoat, or you will need a spring-ring chain to wear the watch with a pair of trousers or jeans with a watch-pocket in it (watch pocket is the 5th pocket in the corner of most pairs of pants/jeans). A good chain should be at least 10 inches long (longer, if you're wearing the watch on your trousers). A chain should match the watch. So gold watch - gold chain. Silver watch - silver chain. Chains cost even more than watches, in my opinion. Gold-filled chains are fairly cheap, as chains go (About $100 for a good one). But solid gold watch-chains have prices that would make your head spin. To give you an idea, purely by gold-content, last year a jewellery-dealer was prepared to sell me a 9kt gold watch-chain for $1,000 and not a penny less. So my chains (and watches) are always gold-filled. I can't afford solid gold and I have no real desire to do so, to be honest.

I'm not sure how many people will tell you this...but watches do not make good investments.

You're buying the watch for the gold.

You can't sell it for the gold.

You can't.

You sell it as a watch. Not as gold.

Nobody BUYS pocket watches anymore. By that I mean, you may struggle to find a market for it. There is one, but where it is and what it's willing to pay is something you need to be careful of.

Also, beware of people who buy pocket watches merely to smash them to pieces, scrap the gold and take the cash (YES, there are people out there who do that. I've heard stories about stuff like that which would make your dead grandmother cry).

Also, watches fetch more money if they're serviced. But in most cases, cost of servicing will be far more than what the watch is worth. So take that into consideration. A watch should be serviced, at the very least, every 10 years.



> My personal style is to buy something at an affordable price and then trade upwards as and when i can afford it.


That sounds good. But you need to know what an 'affordable price' is first. By this, I mean...What kind of money does a good-quality pocket-watch cost?

In my personal experience, a good pocket watch with a gold-filled case and a good movement costs about $200. On average. Maybe less (say, $120-150) for lower-grade watches. Cheap junky watches you can pick up for a song - but they aren't worth your time or money. Keep away from them.

I think what you should do is buy a 'cheap' antique pocket watch first. Something with a nice case but a lowish-grade movement (say, 7 jewels) and work your way up to a higher-quality, nicer-looking watch as time goes on. That's what I did.

*Now...Pocket watches 101 with regards to buying them. Now you say you don't know much about pocket-watches, so this will be, with absolutely no desire to insult your intelligence...an idiot's guide to pocket watches...*

1. Ignore modern hype. People love to tell you that the Swiss make the best watches and have been making the best watches ever since mankind decided he wanted to know what time it was.

NOT TRUE.

From about 1860-1960 (give or take a few years), the United States of America was the best watchmaking country in the world. Its rapidly advancing industry and technology DEMANDED better timekeeping. So, on that score - Your best vintage, good-quality pocket watch with a gold case should come from the USA.

2. Chosing a style. You've done that - Hunter-case. Good. Skip this.

3. Chosing a watchmaker. This can be tricky, as there were dozens of American watchmakers. Knowing which made what at what kind of quality is important so you don't end up with a piece of crap. A general rule of thumb is - If you can't find information about it on the internet,it's because nobody bothered to WRITE about it. And there's probably a damn good reason for that, too - Because it's crap. So ignore it. Only buy watches from brands that you can find on the internet. You'll be able to find out more about your watch, you'll be able to research it better and you'll be able to learn more about its possible worth, quality and other important factors (such as date of manufacture).

There are a number of well-regarded American watchmakers. These are, but are not limited to...

Waltham.

Ball.

Illinois.

Rockford.

Elgin.

Hamilton.

South Bend.

Gruen.

These were all considered top-quality American watchmakers in the early 20th century. Look for watches made by companies like these.

**A note - BALL did not make its own watches. The Ball Watch Co. SOLD railroad pocket watches that were manufactured by OTHER companies (mostly Waltham, Elgin and Hamilton**

4. What makes a good pocket watch.

This is very important to know. Obviously!

A good pocket-watch should...

- Be at least 7-15 jewels (preferrably the latter).

- Be made in America.

- Be popular.

- Have no mechanical damage when you buy it.

Ruby-jewel bearings inside the watch make it run smoother and keep better time. The more jewels a watch has, the better time it *SHOULD* keep. The standard is usually about 17-23 jewels. But I've taken an 1918 15-jewel Elgin halfway around the world and across ten timezones...and it kept time damn near perfect for a month. It lost a minute in two weeks.

American made because they were the best. And you want the best.

The watch has to be popular. Good watches were mass-produced. Mass-production is important. If your watch has a broken part, then it needs replacement parts. If your watch is a rare, one-off piece, then your watchmaker can't fix it if it breaks. Or he'll have to fashion new parts for the watch. And that costs a fortune.

Always err on the side of caution. NEVER buy a watch with a broken mechanical part, with the hopes of getting it fixed later. I did that once. I ALMOST regretted it. I went through nearly a half-dozen watchmakers before I found one who could fix it, and I almost gave up hope. Never put yourself in that position. It's not a nice one.

5. Buying a pocket-watch.

My forte is really fountain pens. But when buying anything that's old and special, be it a vintage fountain pen, a car, an antique piece of furniture or a pocket-watch, you need to have an eye for DETAIL.

When buying an antique pocket watch, you must check EVERYTHING. Start on the top, outside, and work your way down and in.

- Check the bow. Is it loose? That can be tightened. Don't worry. If it's so loose that it falls off, that might be a problem. Take a chance.

- Check the crown. Does it turn smoothly? Does it spring back on you? Yes? Then the mainspring (or some other part of the mechanism) may be broken and/or needs replacing. Mainsprings wear out all the time, those can be replaced. Other things may not be. Take a chance.

**NOTE - DO NOT pull up the crown on a pocket-watch until you find out how to set the time. Not all pocket-watches set the time by yanking up the crown. If you don't know this, don't DO IT, because you can seriously damage a pocket-watch this way. YES, this includes hunter-case watches**.

- Check the case. Are there any dings, dents or scratches? Remember that a lot of these watches are up to 70 years old and older. If you're willing to put up with a couple of cosmetic imperfections, the price can suddenly look very cheap. Be sacrificing.

- Check the dial and the crystal (glass lense over the face). Are there any cracks or chips? Again, if you're willing to put up with a couple of imperfections, prices can suddenly look very affordable.

- Check the hands. Are they matched? Bent? Missing?

- Check the case. Again. Check hinges (if your watch has any) and check edges. Is your watch GOLD or GOLD FILLED? An easy test for gold-fill is to examine the watch-bow (the ring which the chain will cilp to). If your watch is gold-filled, then the bow will show significant chain-wear. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years of a watch-chain constantly scraping on the bow will wear away the gold and be a telltale sign of gold-filling. A solid-gold watch shouldn't have this.

Open the watch-case (or get someone else to do it, if you can't) and examine the inside of the watch. Check the case for markings to determine gold or gold filled.

Gold is marked in different ways. It's not always "12kt, 14kt, 18kt". Sometimes it's done decimally. Check for "0.585" (14kt) or "0.750" (18kt). Those stand for 58.5% and 75% solid gold. Gold-fill is marked as "Gold Filled" or "Plated between two sheets of gold, garaunteed to wear for *X* years". Sometimes it can even be marked "Rolled Gold". Rolled gold and gold-filled are almost the same thing, but they are not solid gold. So don't get confused.

Some watches, aside from the "official information" smartly engraved inside the case, might also have little hand-scratched letters and/or numbers marked in the case. Do not worry. A lot of pocket-watches which are this old, will have such markings. They were commonly added by watchmakers who serviced the watch in the past. It was like their way of marking the watch to prove that it had been serviced. There is NO uniformity to these markings, so other than telling you that the watch was serviced, it's not likely to tell you anything else, as there's no way to research such marks.

Also. Some watches had TWO back covers, to prevent the entrance of dust. Keep this in mind. Usually these watches have hinged covers.

- With the cover off the watch, look at the movement.

If you have an American antique/vintage pocket watch, then all the information you need should be in here. You will have...

l- COMPANY. Waltham. Hamilton. Elgin. Etc. But remember that some of these companies are very old. Their names changed constantly over the years. So research the company names thoroughly to make sure you fully understand what you're looking at. For example: Waltham changed its name like four times in its 100-year history. It started out as Appleton, Tracy & Co. Then American Watch Co, then American Waltham Watch Co. then Waltham Watch Co. See how confusing it can be?

2. JEWELLING. If the watch doesn't have a jewel-marking, then it PROBABLY means it doesn't have many (or any) jewels. But this isn't always the case. In American watches, anything from about 11-jewels and up, should be clearly marked as such. Jewels should be clearly visible as little red discs of ruby inside the watch.

3. ADJUSTMENTS. Adjustments are alterations and perfections made to the watch when it was being made. These are done to make sure the watch keeps as good time as possible under as many different conditons or angles-of-rest as possible. The max of adjustments is 8. Six position adjustments and TEMPERATURE and ISOCHRONISM (variance of mainspring tension).

4. MICROREGULATOR. A microregulator (also called a micrometric regulator) is a regulator that allows for MINISCULE adjustments in a watch's timekeeping. These are often found on the higher-jewelled, better-quality watches (where such miniscule regulation would have made a difference in timekeeping). Such regulators will allow you (or the watchmaker) to fine-tune the watch's timekeeping so that it is as accurate as it can possibly be.

5. Check the movement for gold. Really nice movements had wheels, screws and other parts made out of gold. As gold does not rust, this was a logical choice over steel. The presence of steel does not denote a lower-quality watch, however. Gold is just better.

6. BIMETALLIC BALANCE. The balance-assembly is the part of the watch that swings back and forth and gives you that 'tic-toc' sound. Most balance-wheels are bimetallic (meaning they're made of two layers of different metals). This layering should be clearly evident if you look at the balance wheel. Having a bimetallic balance wheelm means that the watch is better suited for extreme temperature. If the wheel was made of just one metal (say, Steel) then in extreme heat, the wheel would expand, in extreme cold, it would contract, and throw off the timekeeping of the watch.

7. COVER.

I don't normally cover this when I talk about pocket-watches, but that's because I don't normally talk about hunter-case watches. Check the cover of the watch for dings, dents etc. Above all, watch the cover when you press on the crown to see the lid pop open.

Does the lid open without you having to touch it? Yes? Good. No? Bad. Means it needs cleaning.

How far does the lid open? It should pop open automatically to about 90 degrees (or a bit more). If it goes significantly beyond that angle, then it's broken.

When you CLOSE the lid, ALWAYS depress the CROWN first, close the lid, then release the crown to keep the lid shut. Never snap the lid back onto the watch. I know it may look classy and cool, but don't do it. The steel hook can scrape against the watch-lid and wear away the gold and damage the clasp. And you don't want that to happen.


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## louiswu (May 16, 2009)

Hi & Welcome

I think Shangas has given more than enough info to be going on with, all of which i would agree with ...

...with the exception of 'American is best'. lol

That may be true, but as a Brit i cannot bring myself to admit it.

I have Swiss & American watches and couldn't choose between them for accuracy or loveliness.

I think the main thing to take into consideration is your budget.

If you have thousands to burn, then by all means go searching for a solid gold full hunter.

....and then come back here and post piccies so i can drool.

Gold filled may well be a more affordable starting point. I've never bought one (was lucky enough to inherit my 3 PW's) but a quick search of completed listings on that internet auction site brings up a few nice looking gold filled hunters in the Â£200 - Â£300 bracket.

Good luck with your search - let us know how you get on.

...and never one to miss a photo opportunity here's my early 1900's Tho. Russell 10 Jewel SWISS full hunter.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Nice run down SG - Paul, you should know that whilst SG has excellent English, sometimes he can come over as abrupt when he's a great guy. Not everyone on this forum has "English" English as their first language - Hey - Ahm Fae Glescae and Enbra in Bonnie Scotland, so no even me 'nrat ! :lol:

I'd echo SG's posting, very informative, especially the bit about buying PW's as an investment, I don't think it's really viable. If it's investment you're after, look at prices on a good Rolex or two, put it in a safe with it's box and paperwork where no one ever sees it, or wears it so there's no damage, and take it out to sell it in twenty years time or so :yes: In as new condition!

IMO (never humble :lol: ) watches are made to be worn and tell the time, not as an investment - but that's me - other folks mileage may vary :yes:


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## paullmel (Feb 4, 2011)

Shangas,

Thank you immensely for taking the time to post such an informative and comprehensive reply. You are obviously very knowledgeable and passionate about the subject. You have given me food for thought and I will use your information as a reference.

Mel, thanks for the â€˜heads upâ€™, things donâ€™t always come across well in text and I apologise if my initial response offended. I agree totally with your sentiment that watches should be worn and not hidden away.

I will follow the advice given by Shangas and look to buy a gold filled watch to start with; Iâ€™ll let you all know how I get on.

Again, many thanks to you all.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Hi, Paul, and welcome to the forum! Every thing that the guys have told you is spot on. I would just add, that when you are looking for your first purchase, you understand the meaning of 'gold filled' and gold plated. The two terms are completely different, and should not be confused with each other. Gold filled items are made by taking two gold sheets and sandwiching a plate of (usually) brass in between them. These are then fused together (under high temp and pressure) by passing between rollers until the desired thickness is achieved. (hence the alternative name 'rolled gold'). This process was developed very early on, as items made of solid gold were (and still are!) prohibitively expensive. The process was also used to encase brass wire and tube, so that chains could be made. The gold layer in gold filled items typically varies from 75 to 400 microns thick, (1000 microns = 1mm) and in the thicker items, engraving is perfectly possible without going through to the brass. Typical, modern electro plating on the other hand is usually only about 3 to 5 microns thick and has a very bright gaudy look. This is easily worn through very quickly. Some watch case manufacturers would guarantee their gold filled cases not to wear through to the brass under everyday conditions for 10, 20, and even 25 years. (Try and find a guarantee like that today!)

One of the most well known case makers, A.L.D. (Aaron Lufking Dennison) would typically have something like 'Guaranteed to be made of two plates of 14ct gold with plate of composition in between and to wear 25 years'. Dennison cases were designated 'Star' (10 years), Moon (20 years) and Sun (25 years). Finally, the great advantage of a gold filled item is that it has that great, mellow look of solid gold, but without the price tag. Yes, some watches you see may show signs of 'brassing' where the gold has eventually worn away, usually on the bow and edges where it's been worn in a pocket all its life, but remember, these turn of the century beauties are all way past their guarantees now and these marks, along with the odd ding or dent are all part of their history.



















Notice on the bottom left of the cover in the 2nd pic some of the scratched marks that Shangas mentioned. These were made by watchmakers when servicing, but were also made by pawnbrokers if the owner fell on hard times and had to hock his watch.

Anyway...I've rambled on for long enough...I hope that's been of interest. Rog.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Shangas said:


> My forte is really fountain pens.


Didn't know you were into fountain pens, Shangas...although I seem to remember you had one on your watch chain once....have you checked out the Pens, pens, pens thread  Here.  I still use a Parker today....


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## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

Hey chaps,

Glad that I was able to help in some small way. I said that American was "best" for the time-period and should be his first choice when looking for a watch.

And yes, there is a significant difference between gold-plate and gold-fill, which I neglected to mention in my first posting (I think). They are NOT the same and do not get confused by them. I liken gold-plate and gold-fill to painting.

Gold-plate is a spray-can paint-fix.

Gold-fill is two coats of paint applied with a roller.

Which one do you think lasts longer?

Gold-fill watch-cases (can, and have) lasted for over 100 years in near perfect condition. All my watches are gold-fill and they all still look very gold to me, apart from the areas that would receive unavoiable wear - Crown, bow, and occasionally - case-edges.

Mel, English is my first language, just so you know. I was born and do live in Australia.

Paul, you're welcome. But do keep in mind what I and the others have said regarding gold and investments. Gold you can get, if you have a bucket of money, because it's damn, damn expensive. But only if you have a bucket of money. Otherwise, forget it. And pocket watches don't make good investments. People don't buy them. They buy Rolexs, Panerais, Tissots...Not pocket watches. Unless your pocket watch is a Patek-Philippe Minute Repeater with an 18kt gold case with diamonds on it from 1865 in mint condition...don't expect your avreage pocket watch (even if it IS really nice) to appreciate much in value. I never bother getting my watches appraised simply because I KNOW they're not worth anything commercially.

Buy your pocket watch to own it. To love it. To wear it. And to show it off in front of all those lesser-dressed people. Pocket-watches are a sign of refinement, class and breeding. Show others that you have some, and wear it. I haven't worn a wristwatch since I was 20 (24 now) and I carry a pocketwatch everywhere.

Hi Rodge,

Yes, fountain pens are my forte. I've been using fountain pens continuously since I was 7 years old. You should not have told me about that thread. For now I shall never leave it, and will pester you all mercilessly.


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## LozR (Jan 12, 2011)

I had never really considered buying a pocket watch but reading this thread has been so informative and has really opened my eyes. I think I will keep an eye out now for one to add to my little collection!


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## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

I thought I should just chime in here again...

Paul, I wish you all the luck in getting a beautiful pocket watch. I was at the flea-market today. I saw a very nice...14 or 12-size pocket watch for sale. Gold case. Gold and enamel dial. 15 jewels, 3 adjustments, mint condition.

For $200.

Now I don't know about you, but that's a pretty damn good price for a watch that looks that awesome. Probably 1920s jazz-age pocketwatch. Very handsome, elegant gentleman's watch.

So yes, you can get watches for a decent price out there, if you know where to look.

I probably would have purchsaed it, but as I finally reached the price I need to service my OTHER pocket-watch, I let it slide.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Here's my PUBLIC apology for anyone thinking I suggested SG didn't speak or write English well - I was really pointing out - or trying to point out, the way English speaking countries "change" the langauage locally, very subtle differences. :yes: This can lead to readers having feelings of abruptness or whatever, simply beacuse English evolves as it moves around the world, to the US of A, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia etc., - as the Quinies and Loonies fae Aiberdeen would say "Fit Like" :lol:

I did it badly!







but there's Scottish English - Aye - English English, American English - well you get the drift!

I once told a US citizen I was "stewed" - and he looked shocked till I explained we used it to mean "very hot" and not to mean "p!ssed! :wine:

PS - - Shangas, which watch have you decided to get serviced then?


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## Shangas (Jan 27, 2008)

Hi Mel. And yes I received your message. Failures to communicate and whatnot. After much deliberation, I've settled on the Riverside. I think it needs the watchmaker's attentions more than the IWC, which could probably stand to wait a bit longer.


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