# E-scooters.



## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Time to flog some watches @Roger the Dodger

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/electric-scooters-set-to-be-legalised-on-uk-roads-and-cycle-lanes-11919889


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## wrenny1969 (Jun 24, 2008)

I'm in favour of innovation but with those diddy little wheels any pothole/ road debris is going to cause carnage. The legislation will be interesting as what was meant to legalise scooters might morph into something with a seat resembling a motorbike?


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

This seems like a recipe for disaster and I agree with Wrenny above. Our car has small wheels and even that is enough to render potholes pretty daunting. I know that bicycles have bigger wheels than scooters but I reckon that with the poor state of the roads around here, cyclists take their lives in their hands on every trip.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

WRENCH said:


> Time to flog some watches @Roger the Dodger
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/electric-scooters-set-to-be-legalised-on-uk-roads-and-cycle-lanes-11919889


 Still fancy one of these...Halfords sell the Segway S1 for around £400. They may be illegal to use on the pavements and roads at the moment, but there are loads of kids with them and electric scooters around our area, and no one seems to bother them. This model is already limited to 12.5 MPH so would be within the proposed speed limit.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

> This seems like a recipe for disaster and I agree with Wrenny above. Our car has small wheels and even that is enough to render potholes pretty daunting. I know that bicycles have bigger wheels than scooters but I reckon that with the poor state of the roads around here, cyclists take their lives in their hands on every trip.


 I would surmise that the example shown is I'll informed media example. This sort of thing works better.










Mind you, the local "scooter gran" managed to whiz around the pavement safely on her foot powered small wheels.










https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/daily-record-helps-perth-scooter-1593132


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

WRENCH said:


> I would surmise that the example shown is I'll informed media example. This sort of thing works better.


 These things were all over the place in Fuertaventura when we were there last year.

And ridden with no regard to pedestrians or other road users by anybody young or old with a few euros to spare. They even offered Big M's grandson, who was only 9, one fortunately his father stepped in and vetoed the idea and they got a twin seater.

Basically it was carnage, no suspension and big balloon tyres they just bounced all over the place at the slightest hint of a bump or kerb, we were sat in a boozer and we saw one kid get no more than a hundred yards from the hire shop before getting bucked off into a traffic bollard as he tried to cross a road as well as several other crashes and comings together with cars and various stationary objects

Death traps

Unless you want to go straight to A&E avoid at all costs.

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

BondandBigM said:


> These things were all over the place in Fuertaventura when we were there last year.
> 
> And ridden with no regard to pedestrians or other road users by anybody young or old with a few euros to spare. They even offered Big M's grandson, who was only 9, one fortunately his father stepped in and vetoed the idea and they got a twin seater.
> 
> ...


 All over the Algarve as well...

http://xflive.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/gallery/image/14425-20190919_155103jpg/&do=embed


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> Unless you want to go straight to A&E avoid at all costs.


 Compared to some of the sh!'te I run around on they're luxury. :laughing2dw:

Seriously Zero make good stuff, and this would probably be acceptable restricted to 15.5 mph. The benefit is, some of these things fold flat, so you can keep them indoors so they don't get nicked.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

These look good

https://stagmotorcycles.co.uk/collections/e-dirtbike

@Roger the Dodger

I don't know about where you were but in the shop Big M's grandson and dad went to there was no mention of insurance or even the offer of any kind of crash helmet or protective clothing, you stumped up €20 or so and off you went no questions asked.


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

wrenny1969 said:


> I'm in favour of innovation but with those diddy little wheels any pothole/ road debris is going to cause carnage. The legislation will be interesting as what was meant to legalise scooters might morph into something with a seat resembling a motorbike?


 im all for idiots killing themselves and decreasing the surplus population


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

BondandBigM said:


> These look good
> 
> https://stagmotorcycles.co.uk/collections/e-dirtbike
> 
> ...


 The locals seem to use them quite a lot...I even saw one with a Union Jack paint job...probably an ex-pat. They're quite nippy, but the roads in Portugal seem to be pretty good on the whole...not many potholes around, though they do have ridiculously deep open storm gutters at the sides of the road...V shaped and about 14 inches across and deep. You wouldn't want to accidently drive a car into one, let alone a scooter


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## wrenny1969 (Jun 24, 2008)

Nigelp said:


> im all for idiots killing themselves and decreasing the surplus population


 Maybe so however looking at the above comments what the people really want is some decent electric offerings - I've watched a few vids covering electric bikes and dirt bikes, the latter appearing to have massive torque and fun factor. The law says, and I'm paraphrasing, that you must have pedals and no hand operated throttle for it to be a "push bike" which seems okay. We should push back on basic scooters on safety grounds, given they share the road with scooter killers, but as you move the dial on quality and safety the price goes up along with a compelling case for legalisation - there is serious money/ trade in this stuff given many city/ urban dwellers no longer want a 4 door Allegro with vinyl roof but as wrench says the real challenge will be keeping it away from the tea leaves.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Roger the Dodger said:


> The locals seem to use them quite a lot...I even saw one with a Union Jack paint job...probably an ex-pat. They're quite nippy, but the roads in Portugal seem to be pretty good on the whole...not many potholes around, though they do have ridiculously deep open storm gutters at the sides of the road...V shaped and about 14 inches across and deep. You wouldn't want to accidently drive a car into one, let alone a scooter


 Big M and I are going to stick to mobility scooters

:laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

BondandBigM said:


> Big M and I are going to stick to mobility scooters
> 
> :laughing2dw: :laughing2dw:


 Sheila in Spain, 2015, deciding whether to do a 'Madge' from 'Benidorm' or not and hire an 'obescycle'...it was a pretty close call..... :laughing2dw:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> Big M and I are going to stick to mobility scooters


 This one. :laughing2dw:






Remember your safety bunnet.


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## Bonzodog (Aug 29, 2018)

Bad enough dodging cycles on pavements round here,seems these cursed contraptions will be legal soon :bash:


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## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

There all over the place over here, not so much in the winter though. .. They are very dangerous, the riders just cut accross payment's, roads, crossings etc. It is only a matter of time before a death... I wouldn't ride a bike here never mind an electric scooter... :laugh:


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## vinn (Jun 14, 2015)

the skate boards were bad enough, but the older kids could take them inside to "flip burgers". vin


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## relaxer7 (Feb 18, 2016)

Kids the age of you lot should definitely stick to the mobility scooters :laughing2dw:

Mind you, I need talk - I fell off my 8yr olds new scooter on Christmas day p!ssed a newt!


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Bonzodog said:


> Bad enough dodging cycles on pavements round here,seems these cursed contraptions will be legal soon :bash:


 Well this is where this county falls down, many areas on mainland Europe have safe designated lanes for both cyclists and e-scooters and restricted mopeds, this making it safe for all. You'll always get idiots driving/riding anything, but I am in total agreement that the pavement is and always should be for pedestrians only, and mobility scooters should be governed to a sensible walking pace as well. The local "hells grannies" menace many an innocent pedestrian when they are out en mass on their way to afternoon tea club, with shouts of "out of my way ***t" as you hold them up crossing the narrow railway bridge walkway, only to be flicked with hot fag ash as they speed by for their fix of PG tips.


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## Bonzodog (Aug 29, 2018)

WRENCH said:


> Well this is where this county falls down, many areas on mainland Europe have safe designated lanes for both cyclists and e-scooters and restricted mopeds, this making it safe for all. You'll always get idiots driving/riding anything, but I am in total agreement that the pavement is and always should be for pedestrians only, and mobility scooters should be governed to a sensible walking pace as well. The local "hells grannies" menace many an innocent pedestrian when they are out en mass on their way to afternoon tea club, with shouts of "out of my way ***t" as you hold them up crossing the narrow railway bridge walkway, only to be flicked with hot fag ash as they speed by for their fix of PG tips.


 Plenty of dedicated cycle lanes ,they prefer to ride on pavements.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Bonzodog said:


> Plenty of dedicated cycle lanes ,they prefer to ride on pavements.


 The cycle lanes where I live are unusable, and unsafe. I use safe routes on quiet streets to get about, it may take a couple or so minutes longer, but I get to where I'm going safely without annoying anyone.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> Unless you want to go straight to A&E avoid at all costs.


 here's a straight to the hospital job.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Roger the Dodger said:


> The locals seem to use them quite a lot...I even saw one with a Union Jack paint job...probably an ex-pat. They're quite nippy, but the roads in Portugal seem to be pretty good on the whole...not many potholes around, though they do have ridiculously deep open storm gutters at the sides of the road...V shaped and about 14 inches across and deep. You wouldn't want to accidently drive a car into one, let alone a scooter


 I found a pic I'd taken of one of the gutters in Portugal...I only took it as I was amazed at how dangerous it must be...not only for bikes etc., but also for cars. This'd knacker your steering, suspension and underside of your car if you accidently drove into it... :swoon:


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

@Roger the Dodger not only the roads to worry about with E-Scooters!


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

JoT said:


> @Roger the Dodger not only the roads to worry about with E-Scooters!


 It would be interesting to know the factory of origin of the product. I remember having a set of two way radios that couldn't be left on for much more than the recommended charging time or the batteries would get red hot and explode. The charger for my e-bike battery gets worryingly hot, but apparently that's the norm. It also has the same high frequency "whine" as the battery car chargers, which most folk don't hear.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

In today's news,

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/16/electric-scooters-get-green-light-to-go-on-britains-public-roads


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

I just got one of these for my birthday :laugh: and have been down to the pub and back on it!


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Teg62x said:


> I just got one of these for my birthday :laugh: and have been down to the pub and back on it!


 Ya big wean ! :laughing2dw:


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

WRENCH said:


> Ya big wean ! :laughing2dw:


 Only trying to do my bit for the environment! :laughing2dw:


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

I shall start looking for one of the electric unicycles once the current 'scare' is over. At least there should be a bed available when I fall off and break every bone in my body... :laughing2dw:


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

Teg62x said:


> Only trying to do my bit for the environment! :laughing2dw:


 I drank local organic beer too!


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Teg62x said:


> I drank local organic beer too!


 Can you "p!$h" and go ?


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

Even Meg and Murphy are getting in on my new scooter! :laughing2dw:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Teg62x said:


> Even Meg and Murphy are getting in on my new scooter! :laughing2dw:


 They don't look that enthusiastic. :laughing2dw:


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

WRENCH said:


> They don't look that enthusiastic. :laughing2dw:


 Yes, they need to run to keep up now!! :laughing2dw:


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Roger the Dodger said:


> I shall start looking for one of the electric unicycles once the current 'scare' is over. At least there should be a bed available when I fall off and break every bone in my body... :laughing2dw:


 Would still like one of these, though...and Frankie Zapata, the original inventor of the jet ski powered flyboard, has now done a Channel crossing on his miniature turbojet powered version, albeit at the second attempt...he fell off the refuelling boat the first time. Early days, but looks exciting! This is an earlier video before the Channel crossing.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

I'd have this.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

WRENCH said:


> I'd have this.


 That reminds me of the Moulton small wheeled bike I had for going to school in the early 60s...first bike I think with suspension on the rear fork, and a new, 4 speed Sturmey Archer hub ( the norm was a 3 speed).










At the same time, mum had a Raleigh RSW with balloon tyres...


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Roger the Dodger said:


> That reminds me of the Moulton small wheeled bike I had for going to school in the early 60s...first bike I think with suspension on the rear fork, and a new, 4 speed Sturmey Archer hub ( the norm was a 3 speed).
> 
> At the same time, mum had a Raleigh RSW with balloon tyres...


 Got 57 guineas spare @Roger the Dodger :laughing2dw:


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

WRENCH said:


> Got 57 guineas spare @Roger the Dodger :laughing2dw:


 Pretty sure I remember those. Didn't the centrifugal clutch casing (the shiny disc at the bottom of the pic) revolve all the time...even when idling?


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Roger the Dodger said:


> Pretty sure I remember those. Didn't the centrifugal clutch casing (the shiny disc at the bottom of the pic) revolve all the time...even when idling?


 Yes.

My mum's friend had one. She called me one morning and asked if I could pop round because it wouldn't start. Someone had nicked the engine out of it. I got another engine and fitted it minus plug cap, so I bared the wires and wrapped them around the top of the plug to get it going. The lead came off and got lodged in my sock when I was doing around 30mph down a steep hill, it was xxxxxng painfull. They were horrible things. No wonder people bought Japanese mopeds.


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## deano1956 (Jan 27, 2016)

i so want one of theses

deano

[IMG alt="Cruz" data-ratio="62.50"]https://www.fullycharged.com/image/cache/catalog/bikes/vintage-electric-bikes/cruz/Cruz%20RED%20profile-800x500.jpg[/IMG]


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Back in the late 50s, early 60s, my dad had a normal pushbike with a little engine mounted on a carrier behind the saddle. When a lever was operated, the engine lowered until a knurled roller beneath it contacted the top of the rear tyre and thus drove the bike forward. He used it for going to and from work. Anyone remember these?


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Roger the Dodger said:


> Anyone remember these?


 Yes, unfortunately. :laughing2dw:






This brings a whole new meaning to dangerous,


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

I worked with a bloke who came to work on, I think, a velosolex. A strange bike with an engine above the front wheel. I wasn't impressed, I had an MZ 150 Adler! :biggrin:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Stan said:


> I worked with a bloke who came to work on, I think, a velosolex. A strange bike with an engine above the front wheel. I wasn't impressed, I had an MZ 150 Adler! :biggrin:


 They were actually OK, as long as you put the proper tyre on the front. French icon.






You can get a new battery one,






Sooner have a battery Simson though,


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

They did a vintage one of those bicycle sidecars up on an episode of 'The Repair Shop' not so long ago.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

WRENCH said:


> Yes, unfortunately. :laughing2dw:


 As addition to this post, yesterday I watched an episode of Salvage Hunters 'The Restorers', and they refurbed a 1934 Raleigh Model X 'Sit up and beg' all weather cycle, complete with a 'Cycle Master' engine mounted on the rear wheel hub. Must have been a cheap way to get to work. I think these bicycle conversions still had to be registered as a motor vehicle even though they only had a miniscule engine attached, including number plates and tax disc.

Raleigh Model X with pump on rear downtube.

[IMG alt="1934 All Black Royal Sunbeam 24 inch Model 'P' Roadster | www ..." data-ratio="71.04"]https://oldbike.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/1932_sunbeam_1.jpg[/IMG]

...and the 'Cycle Master' engine on a rear wheel.

[IMG alt="Cyclemaster - Graces Guide" data-ratio="88.95"]https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/c/ce/Im0909CSF-Cyc3-50.jpg[/IMG]


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Roger the Dodger said:


> Cycle Master


 Was my very first introduction to motorised two wheels. It had a proper clutch too. BSA did one as well,



















Also had 2 of these. 98cc, no suspension,


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## bridgeman (Dec 9, 2008)

I seem to remember those corgis were sometimes dropped by parachute along with the soldiers in WW2


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

bridgeman said:


> I seem to remember those corgis were sometimes dropped by parachute along with the soldiers in WW2


 The original parachute bike was the Excelsior Welbike. :thumbsup:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Bummer, Rental only. :angry:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53219331

Step in the right direction though.


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm all in favour of these scooters, I have used them all over Europe and Scandinavia. The only concern I have is when the local pond life start trashing them.. because it's fun...

Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Biker said:


> I'm all in favour of these scooters, I have used them all over Europe and Scandinavia. The only concern I have is when the local pond life start trashing them.. because it's fun...
> 
> Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk


 Locally E-Scooter users are whizzing around at 20mph on the pavements and not the roads, bloody menace, only a matter of time before a pedestrian gets seriously hurt


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

JoT said:


> Locally E-Scooter users are whizzing around at 20mph on the pavements and not the roads, bloody menace, only a matter of time before a pedestrian gets seriously hurt


 It's all a matter of education, they don't have these issues abroad but then again, they have decent cycle paths and lanes, not the afterthoughts we have here.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/disabled-man-left-stunned-after-22387358


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Typical of the British press, Simon Cowell involved in electric bicycle shock horror doesn't give the full story. Here's what he was riding apparently,










Spec,

Optimized 20 kW Sine Wave System The Recon, with it's 20kW power system and Sine Wave controller, it is by far the most powerful electric bike on the planet, hands down. By doubling the power of the Eagle, we were able to develop a system that provided a 20% increase in top speed while simultaneously increasing torque by 100% to a whopping 320 ft-lbs of torque.

Whereas the legal spec for UK e-bikes is "slightly" different ,

The EN15194 regulations stipulate that e-bikes may: Be fitted with a motor with a power of no more than 250w. Provide a maximum assisted speed (i.e. the speed at which motor assistance is automatically cut off) of no more than 25 kmph (roughly 15.5 mph)

Quite a difference between 250w and 20kw.


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## Teg62x (Dec 28, 2016)

WRENCH said:


> Typical of the British press, Simon Cowell involved in electric bicycle shock horror doesn't give the full story. Here's what he was riding apparently,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 And here was me thinking he fell off another bike!


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Teg62x said:


> And here was me thinking he fell off another bike!


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## davidif (Aug 17, 2020)

WRENCH said:


>


 PPPPWWWWOOOORRRRRRR


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

JoT said:


> @Roger the Dodger not only the roads to worry about with E-Scooters!


 This in the news.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11020833/amp/They-like-bombs-waiting-explode-Warning-DIY-e-bikes-spark-rise-house-blazes.html

It's interesting that I have had one charger failure, and on opening up the charger for a look, there is more electronics inside than the contents of a laptop. Which is there for a reason and probably justifiably covered by the £200+ price tag for a replacement. Further investigation regarding charging via photovoltaic panels reveals a huge price difference between charge controllers for lithium batteries, ranging from £11 to £300+, again, there is a reason for this. There is any amount of dangerous rubbish for sale everywhere. I've had a look on eBay,and it's easy to go for the cheapest option by sourcing the motor, controller, battery, and charger individually from separate sellers, some will be ok, some will be dangerous, some come with no or very limited instructions which makes them equally dangerous if fitted wrong. Lithium batteries behave very differently to lead acid if not treated correctly.


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## Q.Lotte (Feb 10, 2014)

The Met need to get on this in London. Lots of money in fines (and licence points) going to waste that could be keeping our council tax down.

eScooters here are an absolute menace - especially during the school run, you can see parents riding these machines with tiny wheels with a child standing on the platform in front of them, weaving in and out of the rush hour traffic, no helmets.

Also eBikes - they're only supposed to provide assistance when cycling but I regularly see food delivery drivers going along at speed without their feet on the pedals or those that provide their own machines this is naughty, but worse are the bright orange Just Eat lot where the illegal 'electric motorbikes' have been provided by the company.


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Q.Lotte said:


> The Met need to get on this in London. Lots of money in fines (and licence points) going to waste that could be keeping our council tax down.
> 
> eScooters here are an absolute menace - especially during the school run, you can see parents riding these machines with tiny wheels with a child standing on the platform in front of them, weaving in and out of the rush hour traffic, no helmets.
> 
> Also eBikes - they're only supposed to provide assistance when cycling but I regularly see food delivery drivers going along at speed without their feet on the pedals or those that provide their own machines this is naughty, but worse are the bright orange Just Eat lot where the illegal 'electric motorbikes' have been provided by the company.


 They are heavy on them here when there are enough police to deal with it. Two court cases pending, one caught on a public road within an hour of unpacking it, and the other caught on a public foot path. Both pleading not guilty. Both charged with using a non compliant vehicle, no license, no helmet, no insurance, no vehicle registration number, no tax. If found guilty they will get banned. Edinburgh and Newcastle police/courts have been active as well, handing out bans to those caught riding them home from the pub. I have no problems with mobility scooters as long as they stay within the law of 4mph on the pavement, but there are plenty doing in excess of 10. I had a new Koga Miyata World traveler bicycle with 37 miles on it completely destroyed by an old guy loosing control of his fast scooter and coming off the pavement and knocking my bike over. The police reckoned between rider and scooter the all in weight was 34 stone/216kg. Imagine if he had hit a child and dragged them along underneath it.


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## Q.Lotte (Feb 10, 2014)

WRENCH said:


> They are heavy on them here when there are enough police to deal with it. Two court cases pending, one caught on a public road within an hour of unpacking it, and the other caught on a public foot path. Both pleading not guilty. Both charged with using a non compliant vehicle, no license, no helmet, no insurance, no vehicle registration number, no tax. If found guilty they will get banned. Edinburgh and Newcastle police/courts have been active as well, handing out bans to those caught riding them home from the pub. I have no problems with mobility scooters as long as they stay within the law of 4mph on the pavement, but there are plenty doing in excess of 10. I had a new Koga Miyata World traveler bicycle with 37 miles on it completely destroyed by an old guy loosing control of his fast scooter and coming off the pavement and knocking my bike over. The police reckoned between rider and scooter the all in weight was 34 stone/216kg. Imagine if he had hit a child and dragged them along underneath it.


 That's mad - 34st! The thing I don't understand (wrong thread!) is that if one of the punishments is points on your driving licence, then surely anyone under driving age shouldn't be on them (private or rental) - but again we get lots of kids on them around her and the Met do nothing. I did go up to one officer on a day when a bunch of kids were tearing around the local square and ask why they weren't taking them in hand "Well..." she said "...it seems a shame to spoil their fun, doesn't it"!


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Q.Lotte said:


> That's mad - 34st! The thing I don't understand (wrong thread!) is that if one of the punishments is points on your driving licence, then surely anyone under driving age shouldn't be on them (private or rental) - but again we get lots of kids on them around her and the Met do nothing. I did go up to one officer on a day when a bunch of kids were tearing around the local square and ask why they weren't taking them in hand "Well..." she said "...it seems a shame to spoil their fun, doesn't it"!


 I don't know how the law stands now, but my mate got caught driving a car when he was 15, and got a ban and endorsements as they were known in those days, on his license when he became age at 16.

Someone told me of a karma moment where some old guy with a bag of shopping whacked a guy shouting at him to get out of the way. The bag was full of cans, and the scooter and rider ended up in somebody's garden. :laughing2dw:


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