# Wittnauer Electric - Bracelet Query



## stromspeicher (May 28, 2015)

I acquired this Wittnauer Electric not so long ago. From the photos I saw I was fully expecting it to arrive with the familiar Wittnauer expanding bracelet, well you would wouldn't you -










...but the bracelet isn't an expanding type and it doesn't have Wittnauer on it anywhere. It has removable links and a rather elaborate four section telescopic deployment clasp -



















The inside of the clasp is marked with JB Champion -










I've looked but all I can find is pictures of the expansion type bracelets.The whole thing looks 'kosher' to me but I don't know these watches at all - other than what I've read here and in other similar places.... One of the tags has a model number / description on it if that helps?










....information on the watches is plentiful, but can anyone tell me about this Bracelet?

Cheers,

Mark.


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## PDXWatchCollector (Nov 15, 2013)

This is where some input from Paul and Dave (if he still logs on here anymore) would be helpful.

Not too long ago, Paul showcased some of Dave's fantastic Electro-Chron collection and declared one such example the finest NOS specimen he'd ever seen (from the photos, I could not disagree), inclusive of the original band. When I looked at the photos, however, I could not see the 'W' link on the band, and questioned it. I was assured that it was the original band at that time, and again, with Paul and Dave being amongst the foremost authorities on these watches, I had no reason to disagree.

In my case, when I acquired a complete, original example of one of these watches a few years ago (outer/inner box, booklets, tags), it came with one of the aforementioned 'W' bands (I'm pretty sure Dave has an example of one of these bands as well, based on a long lost post that I read here long ago), the difference being that mine is an expansion-center band (I'm assuming this is what you expected to get, as it looks visually like the one you ended up receiving) and yours has a deployment clasp.

I note, as well, that the buckle on your clasp doesn't feature the typical Wittnauer 'W' either, but again, maybe Paul or Dave can help us here. I have to say, that clasp looks more like a 'diver's' expansion bracelet than something I'd expect to see on an electric watch ...


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

i have one of these bracelets as well, but it didn't come with an electro chron. Yes, it is nearly the same as the factory bracelet, but, as you pointed out, it is not an expansion bracelet, nor does it have the "w" on the side.

My thinking is that the bracelet is probably an aftermarket replacement. Would you kindly post a photo of the box too?

I will also sort through my bracelets to see if I can shed any further light.

And sorry to be "MIA" on the forum lately. I do lurk, but haven't had a lot intelligent to add.


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## stromspeicher (May 28, 2015)

Hi,

Thanks for the comments. I'm away from home and my watches now for at least a few months, but I do have these two photos of the box (I think it looks 'normal' for these watches) -



















A bit more information / notes -

I bought the box and watch together. They were bought from a 'non-watch' person in Japan - they're mostly selling comics / dolls / perfume... I don't have any more information about where they got the watch from.

The watch and strap are both new / unworn but the box has seen better days - in particular the loop that holds the watch in the box has worn covering and the lettering on the inside of the box looks quite faded compared to pictures I've seen of similar boxes on the internet - perhaps the box has been left open, in the daylight for a long time at some stage during its life.

One thing that one realises when buying a lot of watches from Japan is that it is the Land of the Rising Sun and the Short Wrist. The pictured strap is quite short even with two removable links left in place. It occurred to me that the reason for the non-expanding bracelet was that the expanding type may not have been suitable for short Japanese wrists.

The other thing that I found .(...from googling "J B Champion + Wittnauer") is that JB Champion seems to have made quite a few Wittnauer branded bracelets around this period. It may be possible that JB Champion was actually the supplier of the proper branded expansion bracelet to Wittnauer.

I don't think I can add much else on this before I get back to the UK in October and get my watches out again. I have a mobile phone photo which shows the ends on the clasp (highlighted) that are pressed into the shape of the strap links -










...and I have another photo of the watch -










Thanks in advance for any more info anyone may have.

Rgds,

Mark.


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## stromspeicher (May 28, 2015)

...the last post in this thread claims that the Electro-Chron expansion bracelet was supplied to them by JB Champion -

http://vintagewatchforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=2411

...no indication of a primary source


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## PDXWatchCollector (Nov 15, 2013)

I can confirm that the expansion bracelet I have was made by Champion. My complete set was one with the more common square, red 'Electro-Chron' boxes ... I don't know which box came first (I'm thinking it's the blue one you have, based on how frequently each appears for sale?)


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

So let's go down the road again in Electro-Chrondom. I may not get this all posted right now, but will do so, although I can tell you that I have not come to any conclusions yet.

First, let's take a look at boxes. My intention is to confuse things considerably with this first posting. Check out this oddity:























































I bought this box back in 2010. I'm not certain that I have ever shared photos of this box before, maybe not even with Paul (not a slight Paul, it was out of the country for quite some time, and then I never quite got around to it). This is just a guess, but I would have to say that this is the oldest Electro Chron box. I've never seen another, not on ebay, not in advertising, not anywhere.

I also have not seen this box used for a general Wittnauer box, and that's what really has me confused. The earliest Hamilton Electric boxes were repurposed boxes for other watches in the Hamilton line. I would really love it if someone could shed some light on this box, whether it says "Electro-Chron" or not.

The lighning bolt is quite primitive as well. I guess it could have been a prototype. As things stand now, I don't know just exactly where this box is. I can't lay my hands on it so I presume that in the short term the box has been eaten by the house. The photos are the ones that came with the auction back in 2010.

To be continued.....

Last year I bought what was probably about as close to NOS as you can get an Electro Chron that came in the triangular box. It was a black dial one, with the bracelet with the "w" that you would expect. I can't photograph the watch as I sent it to Paul earlier this year, but I have everything else. Here is the box and the papers etc:














































As you can see, this box was complete with inner and outer boxes, the tag stapled on the box corresponds with the hang tag, and the watch insertion guide clearly shows what the bracelet looks like. Note that the hang tag IS NOT the same as your watch.

To be continued .....

You can tell I'm out of practice. When did the "6 photos per reply policy bite the dust? Bit of a surprise as I am posting this stuff!

To be continued ......


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

Before we get back to boxes lets look at a couple bracelets. The first is the Wittnauer expansion band with the "W" that we all have come to know and love. The second is the same as Stromspeicher's but note the clasp is signed "Longines". Other than that it is identical.












































There is little doubt that JB Champion made both bracelets. And that fact that one is signed Longines isn't surprising, as Longines-Wittnauer were one company at that time. Indeed, if you take a look at the bracelet that came on Wittnauer Futuramas you could get the identical bracelet signed "Longines" instead of "Wittnauer". It is also not unusual to see the bracelet unsigned as well, and marketed by Champion or whoever. For instance, NSA made bracelets for everyone - Rado, Heuer, Movado etc., and also sold the identical bracelet with just their logo on the clasp. So my guess it that the bracelet on Stromspeicher's is one of these. I'd be more inclined to think it was a replacement than original equipment though. Otherwise it would be a factory "mistake" not installing a signed bracelet.

To be continued .....


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

Incidentally, I expect that the "F.T.I" on the hang tags means "Federal Tax Included".

I am thinking about the other abbreviations. Your thoughts?










I will continue this post as soon as I can.


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## stromspeicher (May 28, 2015)

...if you look at the tag on my watch it has "Allproof" written out in full, I assume that is what the "AP." on your tag means.


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## PDXWatchCollector (Nov 15, 2013)

Aside from 'Brac.' being an indication that the watch was issued with a bracelet vs. a strap, nothing else really stands out to me as obvious ... 'A' = adjusted?


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## stromspeicher (May 28, 2015)

My tag also has "13J" on it so I guess there must have been 12J and 13J versions?

Not sure about the rest.... "Sw" could indicate Swiss?

Some of the letters could be to do with battery hatch / one-piece back versions?


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

Here's the box that I got with the NOS Electro-Chron that Paul documented a while back, the one that he describes as the best that he has ever seen. I also show an up close of the hang tag:



















So first about the box. You can see it is the red one, the most common of the electro-chron boxes. Like the contents and the watch, it is a pristine time capsule. Now here's something REALLY interesting. This watch still has, in a little envelope, the ORIGINAL battery which was NEVER installed. And in the plastic bag are instructions about battery insertion. And finally, is the hang tag, which is IDENTICAL to yours.

As far as physical evidence goes, this time capsule shows about as definitely as we are going to get, how a watch was supplied from Wittnauer to a jeweller. The watch that Paul documented (you can see that post, called "Wittnauer Electro-Chron perfection, here: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/93841-wittnauer-electro-chron-perfection/#comment-946783

The bracelet is the standard "W" signed bracelet.

The conclusion that I can only draw is that stromspeicher's watch has a replacement bracelet. It looks like the real thing, was made by the same company, but its not the original bracelet.

There still is a little bit of mystery about what the codes on the hang tags mean. Maybe some day we'll get an answer (and you will be the first to know).


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## PDXWatchCollector (Nov 15, 2013)

Thanks for the run-down Dave! Appreciated!


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## stromspeicher (May 28, 2015)

Thanks for all of the info. In particular, very interesting to see the whole assemblage of bits that goes with these watches. And to look back in this forum at previous thread on these watches. I'm really not a fan of skeleton watches - particularly Spaceviews - just personal taste - but those Wittnauer skeleton watches actually look very cool. One of the things that I really like about collecting watches is how a chance purchase can lead you into a whole new area / brand / type of watch.... And that there (almost) always seems to be someone who knows the answer to the question.

Going back to this strap briefly, I think that everything makes sense, particularly knowing that the watch came from Japan. Judging from photos but it looks like the original expansion bracelets would start to be a bit too big / slack for wearing on a wrist under about 7"? If so I could imagine a customer or jeweller ordering in a short bracelet like this for putting an Electro-Chron onto a skinny Japanese wrist.

Cheers,

Mark.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Received this to service this week. The watch and bracelet are both very clean....I took the tag and bracelet off the watch to clean things. So do we think this JB Champion bracelet might be original to this EC? The price doesn't seem to tie in with the price on other tags posted above...or my order card below:


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## PDXWatchCollector (Nov 15, 2013)

Paul, my only question is around the periodicity of the watch versus your order card. Over what period of time were the ECs produced, and is it possible that the watch you're featuring is very early, whereas your order card is from later in the production period?

Absolutely fascinating though ...

And as to the bracelet, I'm beginning to think that there was some variability in terms of which bracelets were issued with these watches (again, perhaps related to specific periods of production?) -- at least Wittnauer was consistent in sourcing from JB ...


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## PDXWatchCollector (Nov 15, 2013)

In the interest of adding to the collective 'EC Nerd' knowledge here, I took the time this weekend to dig out the "full kit" box/paperwork in my possession and took some photos.

This is the watch in question:



And here are some shots of the collateral materials:









Another shot that includes a better view of the tag:



And, of course, given the original topic of this thread, a few shots of the bracelet (JB Champion Expansion type with 'W' link):







And finally, for fun, a shot of the original Wittnauer Electro-Chron Service Manual:


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

PDXWatchCollector said:


> Paul, my only question is around the periodicity of the watch versus your order card. Over what period of time were the ECs produced, and is it possible that the watch you're featuring is very early, whereas your order card is from later in the production period?.


Van, I had always assumed that those ECs with the word "ELECTRIC" on the dial were earlier than those with "ELECTRO-CHRON" on the dial. This is based solely on seeing so many of Dave's watches, plus the various bits of literature that exist. I've seen a few gold ECs where the battery is changed through the crystal (a real pain!), and these often have the the later 4751 and 4760 movements in them...and I think these always have "ELECTRO-CHRON" on the dial...although you'll now probably prove me wrong  .

Interesting sheet you have below --- not seen this one before. Any sign of a date on it?



PDXWatchCollector said:


> And finally, for fun, a shot of the original Wittnauer Electro-Chron Service Manual:


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## PDXWatchCollector (Nov 15, 2013)

"Interesting sheet you have below --- not seen this one before. Any sign of a date on it?" :laugh:

Paul, I actually sent you an e-mail when I got this about a year and a half back, and asked if you wanted a scan of it ... you did, so I sent it to you. Let me know if you want me to send it again ... I think, at the time, you were looking at it more from a practical, repair-resource point of view, as you made a comment about how you already had the ESA version of the technical bulletin, so you may not have paid it much note.

I don't recall if there was a date of publication noted ... I'll take a look when I get home tonight.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

PDXWatchCollector said:


> "Interesting sheet you have below --- not seen this one before. Any sign of a date on it?" :laugh:
> 
> Paul, I actually sent you an e-mail when I got this about a year and a half back, and asked if you wanted a scan of it ... you did, so I sent it to you. Let me know if you want me to send it again ... I think, at the time, you were looking at it more from a practical, repair-resource point of view, as you made a comment about how you already had the ESA version of the technical bulletin, so you may not have paid it much note.
> 
> I don't recall if there was a date of publication noted ... I'll take a look when I get home tonight.


Found it...sorry about that. :wheelchair:

No date though.


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## stromspeicher (May 28, 2015)

I love the labelling on the yellow battery sachet... it contains "1/12 Dozen"



PDXWatchCollector said:


>


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## PDXWatchCollector (Nov 15, 2013)

Synchronicity is a funny thing sometimes ... I was getting around to sorting out a small stack of repair bulletins/catalogs that I'd received a couple of months ago, and in it was this:





I thought it relevant to post here, as A) it shows a representation of the bracelet that Wittnauer expects to have installed on the watch(although it looks to be installed upside down in the drawing!), and it's the same design as what all of us have shared here and B) this one-page repair bulletin, companion to the one I shared above, specifically addresses how to dis-assemble the PITA front-loading Electro Chron models for a battery change that Paul mentions above.


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