# Point Of Contention



## thorpey69 (Feb 8, 2006)

Just sitting here wondering about this,after a few posts recently,and i dont want this to turn into a internet fisticuffs fest,ive noticed how a lot of people on here are praising the Alpha brand to high heaven,ie fantastic value, great quality for the price point ,etc,..........................But am i the only one who looks at these and thinks these are just blatent chinese copies of the better known brands ie Rolex daytonas,subs etc,Omega seamasters ,pos etc.What im wondering is if i posted pictures of a copied Breitling etc and raved on about how do they do it for this price,what value and the like,would the watch achieve such high held status when it is obviously the same as an Alpha watch but not pretending not to be a fake?.

Please feel free to discuss in an adult manner


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

I feel the same way; it is only tempered by the fact they are branded as Alpha and not ripping off the brand they are copying.

That aside they appear to be good value for money and are a low-cost entry into mechanical watches, but can't help having mixed feelings.


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## Robert (Jul 26, 2006)

I think most people do realise that are just blatant chinese copies of others but somehow putting Alpha on the dial makes them ok. If they had a design department and made there own designs for even double there price they would still be value for money.

I had a moonwatch lookalike, never wore it and sold it and have a sub and gmt on their way - probably sell them too after not too long. Its curiousity that gets me


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## Robert (Jul 26, 2006)

ps I do wonder how they get away with it


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

As I have said in here before, the Alpha Design Department can't be on much of a budget. Blatent copies of well known brands but copies of design not fakes. Copies of design have been around for years, the Japs copied british bikes to break into our market (they didn't copy the oil leaks!) but it said Honda on the tank not BSA. These watches say Alpha on the dial and as such I have no problem with that. If someone grabs your arm they will see exactly what it is, it isn't trying to be something else, it's just looks like something else.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

I own several pairs of Jeans, none of them Levis, but they still look like Jeans. None of them have a Levis label on the arse pocket either.

I donâ€™t want any fake Jeans but Iâ€™m certainly not going to stop wear Denim trousers because they look too much like the originatorâ€™s product, in some peopleâ€™s opinion.


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## mart broad (May 24, 2005)

I am in the lucky position of owning three Rolex watches but i see nothing wrong with the Alpha brand anymore than say Marcello,the watch does not pretend to be anything more than a design copy but not a fake,for me its simple "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"faking is theft.

Martin


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## James (Jul 17, 2006)

Lots of lurkers I see. I believe I was one of the first to have one and post about it last year. For me it was the curiosity and value for the money, just wanted to see one and was impressed with the ST19 movement more than what was on the outside, as always. Agreed many are similar to name brands, yet take their triple date/moon phase (24 hour) it is somewhat unique and with solid link band. Its just fun to own as a beater something you don't have to worry about getting banged about, almost disposable if you wish vs, having serviced. I see nothing wrong with it, not like they are 300 bucks pieces actually wearing the name brand badging slagging themselves off as the real thing which is the real crime IMO.


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## Stanford (Feb 10, 2007)

I suspect we all own a 'homage' or two - watches that look like, but don't pretend to be, something else (hopefully).


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## knuteols (Feb 22, 2006)

I will agree - I did get an Alpha, more out of curiousity than the need for another watch. If you saw the LeScout I posted in the Friday Watch thread, it's the same as an Alpha - same movement etc. - basically just the name on the dial that is different. So there's zillions of these around with dirrerent badges. So they ARE look-alikes, but that is what sells I guess. I know that these watches are not of superior quality, but they are affordable and for someone who don't want to spend big bucks on the real stuff it might give some kind of "pleasure" getting one. I really don't know, but I don't blame people for buying one. Heck, I bought one myself









All I do know is that it probably won't run as long as any old Timex ( see, I got to say "Timex" again







sorry about that... )


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

ive been looking at navitimer type chronographs at the moment alpha do a really nice one,poljot do many nice versions of it and many other companys also do a version of it.

so if you buy the poljot version thats fine ,but if you buy the cheaper chinese copy called alpha thats frowned upon is it ,im confused.

this homage ,fake arguement is a big can of worms and will roll on and on .

im not being argumentative im genuinely confused on this side of things regarding this forum ,the recent marina millitaire watches that went through the sales forum recently what are they classed as then.


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## chris l (Aug 5, 2005)

[quote the Japs copied british bikes to break into our market (they didn't copy the oil leaks!) but it said Honda on the tank not BSA...


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## media_mute (Apr 30, 2006)

I do actually feel you guys have a point here- Alphas are clearly copies and their redeeming graces are the name on the dial and price. Respectfully, but since we are having this discussion, most O&W diver's look like Rolex subs to me, should that they also do other watches exclude them from this thread?


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## James (Jul 17, 2006)

Hmm, Alpha Sub or Rolex Sub? Dunno. I will tell you every one of my friends has a Rolex, I refuse to fall to the masses and would actually buy a Grovana over a Sub simply because they are not on everyones wrist. Maybe that is the appeal to some for the Alpha, its same yet different perhaps and name not recognized, like a small cult. Everyone has a reason









And I had a 69 Royal Star 500 minty and no Jap bike was ever copied close to the Norton's, Triumphs BSA's etc. at that time


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

thorpey69 said:


> What im wondering is if i posted pictures of a copied Breitling etc and raved on about how do they do it for this price,what value and the like,would the watch achieve such high held status when it is obviously the same as an Alpha watch but not pretending not to be a fake?.
> 
> Please feel free to discuss in an adult manner


It's funny because this morning it just dawned in me what the Invicta logo on my 8926 ripped off, 2 rip-offs in one watch , that is a cracking bargain.









Mart brought up a good point mentioning Marcello (he could have said O&W), snobbery it seems, fades as the purchase price reaches respectable levels  . Smoke and mirrors if you ask me.

I have said it before, fakes, homages, copies what's the difference? Don't answer, it's all psychobabble to me, something to do with a dial name or paying respect I think........ puhlease! I don't buy it for one minute.









I don't see anything wrong with Alpha's, they are cheap and they are fun and it seems they are a c**khair on the side of legality, however just to even it up and upset everybody, I am going to buy one...... but I understand that I am buying a fake.


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

I should have said IMO







Off to the pub now, nice thread Thorpey


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

I think my views on Alphas are know by most


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## Stanford (Feb 10, 2007)

It's a fact of life that there will always be versions of the same product at both ends of the price spectrum, and all points between, whether they are watches, cars, houses, jeans etc. and I think there is a place for all of them.

It boils down to individual taste and how deep your pockets are, amongst other things.

As long as whatever it is isn't a fake or breaking some law or copyright, I don't see anything wrong with the Alpha's of the watch world.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

pg tips said:


> I think my views on Alphas are know by most


Please elaborate.


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## James (Jul 17, 2006)

potz said:


> MarkF said:
> 
> 
> > I have said it before, fakes, homages, copies what's the difference? Don't answer, it's all psychobabble to me, something to do with a dial name or paying respect I think........ puhlease! I don't buy it for one minute.
> ...


Interesting thread. I too like my Swiss and like my vintage movements even more. I understand your statement re real calibers and real money to develop. On the other hand, jewels are jewels and metal is metal. If there were magic jewels or magic metal everyone would be using it. Yes the movements are not as fancy but do we discount them as being inferior because perhaps not as pretty? Maybe we have a fear of new? I don't know. Maybe in 20 years the Chinese movement will be in all watches and the Swiss speaking Chinese with all Asian workers in their operations? Interesting tug of war it is.

Maybe its our Western consumerism feeding the frenzied fish?

I can't help adding fuel to the thought fire









But.......I do like my American pocket pieces and Swiss new and vintage pieces


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## thunderbolt (May 19, 2007)

I just like them 'cos they're cheap and cheerful.


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

thunderbolt said:


> I just like them 'cos they're cheap and cheerful.


well said buddy , some of us just love a bargain and thats what alphas are a bargain.


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## Mrcrowley (Apr 23, 2003)

Got a 60s Daytona lokalike. Keeps great time, i like it. I nearly bought an original expecting 8k abouts. My dealer, long tern relation ship, said cheapest he could let me have it for was 24k.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

MarkF said:


> thorpey69 said:
> 
> 
> > What im wondering is if i posted pictures of a copied Breitling etc and raved on about how do they do it for this price,what value and the like,would the watch achieve such high held status when it is obviously the same as an Alpha watch but not pretending not to be a fake?.
> ...


Do I seem upset? Should I be?

It will take a lot more than that I suspect.









We're only talking about watches after all.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

chris l said:


> > the Japs copied british bikes to break into our market (they didn't copy the oil leaks!) but it said Honda on the tank not BSA...
> 
> 
> Which Brits would you say were copied by the Japanese?
> ...


Look familiar?










Meguro










Kawasaki










There was also Cabton who made copies of Ariel motorcycles plus DSK, BIM & Rikuo made copies of BMW`s









As for Alpha watches, so what? there are loads of watches out there that are either direct copies of or are strongly influenced by more famous names, as long as they aren`t actually fakes trying to fool someone I can`t see the problem, are Omega or Rolex etc sales seriously dented by Alpha, I doubt it.

I could if I really wanted to save up and buy a real Omega Planet Ocean, Speedmaster and Rolex but I choose not to, I like the designs but not enough to spend that amount of money on so I`m quite happy with the Alphas thank you very much


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## Nalu (Nov 28, 2003)

TBH, I don't read Alpha threads and don't give them a second look when posted on 'wrist shot' days.

I don't have much love for modern Omegas or Rolexes, but that doesn't mean I enjoy seeing almost-fakes. I have no problem with design cues from other watches, homages to watches no longer in the catalogue, etc., but Alpha watches do nothing for me. I own a Grovana CR2 because it's the size a Sub _should_ be and I can have some colour on the bezel - to me it's better than a Sub!


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> chris l said:
> 
> 
> > > the Japs copied british bikes to break into our market (they didn't copy the oil leaks!) but it said Honda on the tank not BSA...
> ...


Well done that man. That's exactly what I was thinking about. The first pic sure looks like my old Honda CD175. Thanks for posting the pics.


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

potz said:


> The thing is that the reel deel has a lot to offer (which you pay for) that he others don't. Real calibers which cost some real money to develop. An excellent after-buy service. I have had all sorts of watches but it is the real names that I will go back to (increasingly so) for a good reason. As with anything: you buy the real thing, you get quality. Buy a pair of cheap sneakers and you throw them away after 6 months. Buy a pair of handmade shoes and wear them for years - and spread the cost over time they are cheaper than the sneakers.


I think that we are having arguments within arguments here. Clothes, shoes, furntiure, electrical gear are things that I always buy for quality, I firmly believe that in the old cliche "You get what you pay for" and you will never see me or my kids in Primark or Asda gear. But that's lifestyle stuff, watches are only one of my hobbies, if I only had one watch it would not be an Alpha, it's going to be for fun. Of course you get the real deal with quality but somebody who chooses to buy an Alpha does so for one of two reasons, they either can't afford the real deal or have no wish to purchase one..or they would wouldn't they?



mach 0.0013137 said:


> As for Alpha watches, so what? there are loads of watches out there that are either direct copies of or are strongly influenced by more famous names, as long as they aren`t actually fakes trying to fool someone I can`t see the problem, are Omega or Rolex etc sales seriously dented by Alpha, I doubt it.


Well I agree with the first point, I don't believe that they have any negative impact on superior brands profits or R&D costs, it's just protectionist business speil. Although if I were them I'd be as mad as hell. Contrary as always. But the latter point........if "Alpha" on the face of a blatant copy stops a watch from being a fake I don't reallly see how, although I'll try my best.











Russ said:


> Well done that man. That's exactly what I was thinking about. The first pic sure looks like my old Honda CD175. Thanks for posting the pics.


CD175, an old farts bike in the 70's and now a collectable icon, how weird is that?


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Nalu said:


> TBH, I don't read Alpha threads and don't give them a second look when posted on 'wrist shot' days.


Sounds like very good advice for anyone who has a problem with Alphas


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

MarkF said:


> CD175, an old farts bike in the 70's and now a collectable icon, how weird is that?


Cheeky bugger, I had a CD175 in the 70`s, excellent bike, a true classic


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## Roger (May 17, 2003)

I bought a couple a few months back out of interest.

I,m not sure if the "jump hour" is a copy of anything current but the "tourbillion" (it does say tourbillion under the hand) probably isnt.

I dont think anyone woud think the "tourbillion" was genuine.

They are good value and work.

In my 35 years of watch collecting and own/have owned the best and the worst. To me Alpha is OK as long as you accept them for what they may be.


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## rhaythorne (Jan 12, 2004)

I think the reason why Alpha have a bit of a cult following amongst watch enthusiasts is that they've hit the marketing nail squarely on the head for that particular group whereas two other types of purveyor of "cheap" watch have missed by a mile:

*Fakes*

Alphas aren't fakes in my book as they don't claim to be made by some exotic Swiss manufacturer (Rolex, Omega et al). They display "Alpha" clearly on the dial. There are hundreds of other examples (including several that we all know and love) of Rolex, Omega, Panerai inspired designs and I can't see that Alpha are doing anything significantly different in that respect. The tourbillon badged watches overstep the bounds of acceptability for me as they're not true tourbillons and just have exposed balance wheels, but that's probably another discussion entirely.

*Bogus Retail Prices*

Alpha sell their watches at the proper retail price and aren't fooling people into thinking that the watch they're buying for Â£30 has a retail price of Â£500. You know, like Claude Valentini, Krug Baumen etc. do.

Alpha are selling attractive watches that are reasonably well made for a very good price under their own brand name. I love 'em









However, I wonder if the factories that make the Alphas also make the fakes and the bogus RRP makes?

As to their ability to come up with original designs, have a look at their "Reverso" watch. No, it isn't a copy of a JLC







It's effectively two watches merged back-to-back so that you can wear it one side up, or the other and set different times on each side. I've not seen that before! Is that an orginal idea?


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## chris l (Aug 5, 2005)

quote]

CD175, an old farts bike in the 70's and now a collectable icon, how weird is that?


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## Roger (May 17, 2003)

It's effectively two watches merged back-to-back so that you can wear it one side up, or the other and set different times on each side. I've not seen that before! Is that an orginal ideaI stand to be corrected, but wasn't the Xemex "Fat Boy" like that?


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## langtoftlad (Mar 31, 2007)

My two penneth:

Are Alpha designs copies? If so why? Because overall it looks similar to something else? Because the dial, or the hands, or the bezel looks like something else?

If yes - then shouldn't we object in principle to every manufacturer who 'copied' the bezel idea from the original sub etc etc etc. It's all a question of degree.

Surely Alpha aren't really "copies" because they don't copy the movement, they don't copy the caseback, nor some of the features such as water resistance - anything more than a brief glance soon confirms an Alpha to be an Alpha, not what you might have first thought.

If all similarities of design from one manufacturer to another were banned, then we'd only have about five watches to choose from...

I have two Alphas -

the first I got was the "Grenade Monster" and I still have no idea if it's "similar" to anything else (and if so what...)










the second - I knew had similarities to an Omega but I have no idea how similar, the hands, the bezel, the font etc? What I liked was the colour and the overall look.










...and the one I like the look of next is this...










but again I've no idea if it's a copy of a better known make. Is it?

And finally - many companies have started by producing cheap knockoffs before developing their own style - hopefully Alpha might be in this 'transition' phase - and maybe tempted to bring out the odd design of their own alongside their other product range?

And finally finally







to all those who are sniffy about Alpha and their ilk, have you never bought a supermarket own brand???


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

Some interesting points so far. As Alpha copy the premier brands analogy then you would have to ask would the same person that buys an Alpha also buy a Aston Martin DB9 shape but with a Kia badge on the grill and boot.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Alas said:


> Some interesting points so far. As Alpha copy the premier brands analogy then you would have to ask would the same person that buys an Alpha also buy a Aston Martin DB9 shape but with a Kia badge on the grill and boot.


Possibly, but I'd bet they only feed their cats and dogs premium brand pet foods.


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## langtoftlad (Mar 31, 2007)

Alas said:


> Some interesting points so far. As Alpha copy the premier brands analogy then you would have to ask would the same person that buys an Alpha also buy a Aston Martin DB9 shape but with a Kia badge on the grill and boot.


Perhaps not - but they might be tempted by a Hyundai, which looks superficially similar to something else but is a decent car in its own right.


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## chris l (Aug 5, 2005)

langtoftlad said:


> Alas said:
> 
> 
> > Some interesting points so far. As Alpha copy the premier brands analogy then you would have to ask would the same person that buys an Alpha also buy a Aston Martin DB9 shape but with a Kia badge on the grill and boot.
> ...


Or by an MX-5, a self admitted homage to British sportscars, but which is a great car in it's own right.

I think we should define terms, that homage is _not _imitation...

_Homage_

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homage


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## langtoftlad (Mar 31, 2007)

but is "homage" really applicable when the motivation is purely commercial...?


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## rhaythorne (Jan 12, 2004)

Re. Hyundai, you mean the SIII Coupe? Yeah, saw one of those the other day and immediately thought it looked like a mini DB9









Yes Roger, the Xemex sounds like the same concept although I can't find much info about it. The Alpha supposedly has two auto movements with both rotors removed to reduce thickness. To further reduce thickness, only one side has a sweep seconds hand whilst the other lacks a second hand but features an exposed balance wheel so you can see it working. Both movements are hand-wound and set from a single crown.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

langtoftlad said:


> I have two Alphas -
> 
> the first I got was the "Grenade Monster" and I still have no idea if it's "similar" to anything else (and if so what...)


 It`s a copy of the Zodiac V-Wolf, but with different hands


















Nick`s photo, I hope you don`t mind me using it


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

mach 0.0013137 said:


>










Mac, did you buy this?


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

MarkF said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


I tried to but was too slow


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## langtoftlad (Mar 31, 2007)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> It`s a copy of the Zodiac V-Wolf, but with different hands


Whilst bowing to your superior knowledge & experience - I can see the similarities but if it's meant to be a 'copy' then Alpha have a lousy eye for detail 

Differences I can see... the crown, the bezel, the dial, the markers, the colour, the font - as well as the hands









Which begs the question - how close to 'an original' does a watch have to be to be a 'copy'?

The O&W and Seiko Divers seem, to me, to be equally superficially similar as to be copies of one or other of them - but that doesn't seem to be an issue.

Additionally, I've seen a lot of Chronos which look like they were inspired by the same design, but I assume that's because the movement used dictates a certain look. However as the watches I'm thinking of are made by 'reputable' manufacturers, no-one seem to levy the 'copiest' accusation against them (I suspect I'm going to have to search for examples of what I mean to defend my position).


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

langtoftlad said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> > It`s a copy of the Zodiac V-Wolf, but with different hands
> ...


I never said it was an exact copy


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## langtoftlad (Mar 31, 2007)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> I never said it was an exact copy


Touche - indeed you didn't


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## media_mute (Apr 30, 2006)

handbags at twenty paces


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Even though I did try to buy the Zodiac IMHO the alterations Alpha made makes their copy better looking


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## gallch (Jan 7, 2007)

Well I agree with the first point, I don't believe that they have any negative impact on superior brands profits or R&D costs, it's just protectionist business speil. Although if I were them I'd be as mad as hell. Contrary as always. But the latter point........if "Alpha" on the face of a blatant copy stops a watch from being a fake I don't reallly see how, although I'll try my best.









I remember starting a thread a bit like this one when I bought my O&W M4 and wondered aloud why anyone would pay 17 times more (or whatever it was) for a Sub. Since then I have bought a 1968 Rolex Precision, to see what all the fuss is about without spending too much money but that's another story.

But the fake thing....I know the legal bit but not where Alpha stand. There are two tests - one is whether a reasonable person would mistake it for a Rolex when purchasing and thereby pay the "wrong" amount or conversely damage Rolex's brand value that way. No - there's an Alpha logo on it nice and conspicuously so no worries there. (Someone might see it at a distance on your wrist and think it's a Rolex - that's a different matter, between you and your conscience - someone told me that if I wanted people to think my M4 was a Sub then they felt sorry for me. So they should if I did, but I didn't).

Damage to Rolex's brand value by people thinking they aren't going to pay Â£1,700 when they can get an Alpha for Â£30 is tough luck for Rolex, unless.....

The other legal test is whether Alpha have used techniques of manufacture, design and / or production which are Rolex-patented. No idea. Someone mentioned that LeScout watches use a copy of a japanese movement. IF so, and if unlicenced, that's theft.

Anyone know where Alpha stand on that ?


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