# Fogging Problem



## Olive Drab (Sep 11, 2005)

my m6 is about 9 months old. today there is a lot of condensation on between the crystal and the face of the watch. is this normal? i never noticed it before but then again this is the first time i have worn the watch in 90 plus degree temperature. i thought this was sealed and shouldnt be an issue? any ideas on how to fix this problem?


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Get in touch with the retailer....

They should sort it out.....


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

Send it back to where you purchased it from and they should sort it out.

This heat is making a lot of seals in watches fail.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Roy said:


> This heat is making a lot of seals in watches fail.


I'm surprised by this...after all, we're only talking about 6-7 degrees above normal.

Sounds a bit like the old British Railways problems in the winter; you know, wrong type of leaves on the line etc







I think I heard on the radio the other day that the British can only cope with Grey Weather; mildly cold winters or hot summers, and everything fails in this country.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Its the same reason youre told not to shower with a watch tho isnt it? something to do wth uneven expansion....


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## PhilM (Nov 5, 2004)

JonW said:


> Its the same reason youre told not to shower with a watch tho isnt it? something to do wth uneven expansion....


Shower with a watch on what ever next


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## makky (Jul 14, 2004)

PhilM said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > Its the same reason youre told not to shower with a watch tho isnt it? something to do wth uneven expansion....
> ...


Keep those crowns firmly screwed!

Sweaty wrists don't help.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

JonW said:


> Its the same reason youre told not to shower with a watch tho isnt it? something to do wth uneven expansion....


Yes, you should not wear a watch in the shower.

If a watch is pressure tested at a certain temperature then there are no guarantees that it will still withstand water to higher or lower temperatures, obviously small temperature variations will not make any diffrence. Taking a watch out of cold water into hot air can cause problems though.

As soon as a crown is unscrewed then the seal is broken.


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## ollyming (May 12, 2004)

Roy said:


> This heat is making a lot of seals in watches fail.


Why do you say this Roy? I can't see why the hot weather would make the seals fail.

Cheers, Olly


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## joe (Apr 14, 2005)

Roy said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > Its the same reason youre told not to shower with a watch tho isnt it? something to do wth uneven expansion....
> ...


Shouldn't divers wactches be able to cope with some temperature changes - for example when going from a warm boat deck into cold seawater, and then getting back on the boat?


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

I would have thought that the spec on a divers watch would include a temperature range where seals would be OK


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

ollyming said:


> Roy said:
> 
> 
> > This heat is making a lot of seals in watches fail.
> ...


I just thought that this could be the cause, if I'm wrong then I'm wrong.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Interesting









I have some ideas why .... I also might be wrong









In hot sunny weather watches can get much hotter than the ambient temperature, especially when exposed to direct sunlight, black dials and crystals must contribute.

The case must expand under these conditions and perhaps the seals are then compromised, albeit very slightly.

Now why does water get in when you are only splashing about for example? Well .... it is certain that the air inside the case will have expanded, probably vented out through the compromised seals. Jump into your swimming pool there would be a rapid cooling of the watch creating a negative pressure inside the case, if the seals are compromised in any way this negative pressure would equalise quickly drawing a small quantity of water into the watch. My guess is that once the watch is cool and the pressure is equalised then the watch is probably water resistant again.

Just a hypothesis ... but it seems to make sense to me


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Keep repeating it over and over and over and you might start believing it!!!!


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## Ironpants (Jul 1, 2005)

JoT said:


> Interesting
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you are on to something there

Toby


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## Olive Drab (Sep 11, 2005)

this one was operator error not defect. I went surfing last night, and afterwards i noticed the fogging. roy mentioned the crown and a priv message and sure enough i left it unscrewed. not sure why i did that or how i didnt notice it.


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## joe (Apr 14, 2005)

Olive Drab said:


> this one was operator error not defect. I went surfing last night, and afterwards i noticed the fogging. roy mentioned the crown and a priv message and sure enough i left it unscrewed. not sure why i did that or how i didnt notice it.


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## Ironpants (Jul 1, 2005)

Olive Drab said:


> this one was operator error not defect. I went surfing last night, and afterwards i noticed the fogging. roy mentioned the crown and a priv message and sure enough i left it unscrewed. not sure why i did that or how i didnt notice it.


Get it back to the retailer for dismantling so the movement can be dried and repaired if necessary. There will be plenty of time to kick yourself later.









On the bright side you probably won't make that mistake again  Hope it turns out alright.

Toby


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## ollyming (May 12, 2004)

JoT said:


> Interesting
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Given the fairly small change in temperature (say from 20 degC to 50 degC) the expansion will be next to nothing. For stainless steel the linear coefficient of thermal expansion is 17.3x10-6/degC. So a 40mm watch at 20 degC will grow to be a 40.02076mm watch at 50 degC. I can't see this causing any problems for the seals. If anything, it will compress them a bit more and make them more water tight.



JoT said:


> Now why does water get in when you are only splashing about for example? Well .... it is certain that the air inside the case will have expanded, probably vented out through the compromised seals. Jump into your swimming pool there would be a rapid cooling of the watch creating a negative pressure inside the case, if the seals are compromised in any way this negative pressure would equalise quickly drawing a small quantity of water into the watch. My guess is that once the watch is cool and the pressure is equalised then the watch is probably water resistant again.
> 
> Just a hypothesis ... but it seems to make sense to me


Though I can't dispute your physics, I don't think the temperature variation is enough. Assuming at 20 degC the air inside is at atmospheric pressure (approx 1 bar) then taking it up to 50 degC (ie 2.5 times) would cause the pressure to become 2.5 bar (also up 2.5 times as pressure is proportional to temp. for a fixed volume). For a typical divers watch rated to 20 bar the seals would have to be very, very badly compromised to leak at around 10% of 'design' pressure.

All a bit simplified but short of the seals chemically degrading at the higher temps (and most rubbers should be OK) I don't see that there is a mechanism for the higher ambient temperatures to cause an issue.

I'll go and hide while a proper physicist shoots great big holes through my logic









Cheers, Olly


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

ollyming said:


> Though I can't dispute your physics, I don't think the temperature variation is enough. Assuming at 20 degC the air inside is at atmospheric pressure (approx 1 bar) then taking it up to 50 degC (ie 2.5 times) would cause the pressure to become 2.5 bar (also up 2.5 times as pressure is proportional to temp. for a fixed volume). For a typical divers watch rated to 20 bar the seals would have to be very, very badly compromised to leak at around 10% of 'design' pressure.


You are looking at this the wrong way round







... I am assuming that the expanded air vents out rather than having a higher pressure inside the case .... then on quick cooling you get a negative pressure inside the case .... thereby drawing a small amount of water in till the pressure equalises ...







The way you describe there wouldn't be a negative pressure.

All you need is a seal that isn't 100% and you could (note I emphasise "could") get water ingress given the negative pressure inside the case.

As far as the expansion is concerned, you are quite correct, with your linear expansion coefficient calculation however it may not compress the seals given the nature of the seals in the crown tube, and with a poor seal even a small expansion could make matters worse.

Watches do leak in hot weather, I have seen several accounts over the years on various fora ..... whatever the reason is









It would make a good Ph.D .... with some great fieldwork opportunities


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## ollyming (May 12, 2004)

JoT said:


> It would make a good Ph.D .... with some great fieldwork opportunities


Now that sounds like a plan! Whole lot better than working, especially in this heat.

Cheers, Olly


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## Olive Drab (Sep 11, 2005)

Ironpants said:


> Olive Drab said:
> 
> 
> > this one was operator error not defect. I went surfing last night, and afterwards i noticed the fogging. roy mentioned the crown and a priv message and sure enough i left it unscrewed. not sure why i did that or how i didnt notice it.
> ...


if i was wearing one of my other watches i would probably have a heart attack when the repair bill came. i hope this will keep the same accuracy after its fixed. this is the most accurate watch i own which is why i love it and wear it almost every day.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

My Accutron fogged up today and I didn't have it near water (apart for the gallon that came out of my pores







).









I took the back off and it cleared in minutes. The gasket is probably as old as the watch and should be replaced, in the mean time it's had a fine coat of silicon grease and that seems to have done the trick.

I'm going to be keeping a close eye on my vintage watches in weather like this in future.


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## Olive Drab (Sep 11, 2005)

i called two jewelers today and went by tourneau. none will work on it and will only send it back to O&W. i thought this movement was common?


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Stan said:


> My Accutron fogged up today and I didn't have it near water (apart for the gallon that came out of my pores
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I`ve had some fogging in old watches when worn in very hot weather including ones that were NOS, I now avoid wearing my oldies when the temperature is high


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Olive Drab said:


> i called two jewelers today and went by tourneau. none will work on it and will only send it back to O&W. i thought this movement was common?


It is a common movement, it needs cleaning and servicing and most watch repairers could do it; you need to find an independent repairer.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Olive Drab said:


> this one was operator error not defect. I went surfing last night, and afterwards i noticed the fogging. roy mentioned the crown and a priv message and sure enough i left it unscrewed. not sure why i did that or how i didnt notice it.


Some time ago we had a guy on here who swore that the screw down crown was only to stop you accidentally operating it whilst underwater and if it was left unscrewed the seal around the stem would still keep the water out.

I didn't believe him then and i certainly don't believe him now!


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## Olive Drab (Sep 11, 2005)

im not the only one learning a costly lesson (on Timezone)



> Hi All
> 
> I enclose a pic of my Pam 98 that I have had for about 3wks my first problem was it was running 30s a day fast but now I have a bigger problem(see attached pic) the glass misted up several times over a period of 48 hrs it would come and go depending on temp, it is now clear and has benn for about 2 days. I go swimming reg but I have been since and it hasnt misted again, the only thing I can think of was I was driving my car with the air con on full blasting at my wrists, I did have my pam set to alrm which involves pulling the crown out, which I suppose will lose its water proofness maybe I dont know.


eek! if i was wearing my father's pam25 when this happened he probably would have wrote me out of the will.


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