# Cheap Geiger Counter To Check On My Vintage Dials?



## jnash

few on the bay but now sure on what to buy, want the cheapest one as possible that will work?

Thanks in advance

J


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## AbingtonLad

J - there's only a 50/50 chance that a Geiger Counter would be sensitive enough to pick up anything from old lume. Just so as you know - don't be too disappointed if you buy one and get nothing but 'the sound of silence'


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## William_Wilson

Why is there only a 50/50 chance?

Later,

William


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## Mick B

Can I ask why the lume is checked for radioactivity, if it is a given that watches before a certain era contained radium, what do you do if the needle goes off the dial.

You cant open the watch and legally you can't dispose of it without a license or taking it to someone who has a disposal license.


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## jnash

Ive got to work on some watches that radium is all over the place, before i open up the case, wanted to check them out, but the gieger counters are expensive..


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## mel

As Ablington Lad says, there's only a 50 per cent chance you'll get a reading, but you don't just need a counter, you need a source as well for calibration and/or checking purposes. There's no point in using a counter that you don't know if it actually works, so you need a Known check source to "prove" the counter works ebfore you start - - - :stop:


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## William_Wilson

Why is there only a 50% chance of getting a reading? That makes no sense. Considering we are talking about an unknown source and an unknown instrument, how can probability be assigned?

Later,

William


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## Always"watching"

Dear jnash

I once wanted to have a Geiger counter to test the radioactivity of some of my glass collection. My fears about radiation from certain colours used in glassware made me ridiculously concerned, and after I had taken a few pieces to the local Polytechnic, I did, in fact, get rid of the most radioactive piece because the guy testing them said that of all the pieces, he would not want to sleep next to that one.

As I have got older and now that have lost count of the medical x-rays I have had in the last few years, I have mellowed in my attitude to the radioactive domestic items we have in our homes, and that includes old clocks and watches. I would now not even consider buying a device to record or measure ionising radiation, even though an old lume made using radium will inevitably send the machine clicking.

However, that doesn't mean I am not careful about unnecessary exposure. My advice to you about repairing really old watches with a lot of painted lume is a clear DON'T, especially if you need to remove the glass and do things to the hands or dial. The problem with old radium-based lume isn't the checking of the watch to tell the time but is the possible ingestion of radioactive lume into the lungs or digestive system when you start messing about with it. As for wearing old radium-based lumed watches, I wouldn't do this on a regular basis, even though the metal back of the watch will probably stop some some of the radiation from getting through. Indeed, "distance" is the key factor in deciding how much radiation you will receive from an old watch. More modern lumes focus on the use of alpha radiation to stimulate the luminescent substance, which can travel only a very short distance and is easily blocked, and watch experts on the Forum will no doubt be able to tell you when the use of radium-based lume finally came to an end.

So, like the members who have already posted on this thread, I do not suggest that you purchase any sort of radiation counter. Just be a bit careful and use your common sense about watches and clocks that might be radioactive.


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## mel

William_Wilson said:


> Why is there only a 50% chance of getting a reading? That makes no sense. Considering we are talking about an unknown source and an unknown instrument, how can probability be assigned?
> 
> Later,
> 
> William


I;ve used counters to check lume on old "power station" instruments on a "just in case basis" before working on them or very near them.. It's not uncommon to get a reading using one counter, and not on another, yet both have been calibrated to the same standards. Since these instruments are (in old stations) mounted on a "battleship grade" steel panel in turn mounted on a steel cabinet of the same grade, you can get vastly differing readings from the front and back of the instruments, and I always assumed this was due to the 3 to 4mm of steel encasement -often with doors that closed over the front as well as the back. :yes:

Once it had been established there might be some rads in an instrument panel, this was noted and warnings posted, and we just worked as little as possible in close proximity. I don't think it affected me much :wallbash: :yahoo: :doctor:

My suspicion is that radiation detection is a black art, somewhat akin to alchemy, sorcery and those fairies at the bottom of our garden :lol:


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## jnash

Just an update, i purchased the Pocket Gieger that links to my phone, waiting on it at the moment, if anything its a cool gadget. assuming i get readings from the watch when i take it a part i will just be a bit more careful.

The lume has all fallen off the hands and the dial (its a pocket watch so larger) and ill try not to inhale it....

ill keep you posted just incase anyone is interested.

Thanks for all your help.


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## Always"watching"

Dear jnash

You have been warned! I really think that this is not a sensible job to be doing without proper precautions. The radioactive elements we are dealing with here have a very long half-life and if little bits of old lume get in your body they may be there permanently, giving off ionising radiation to the organs from close range. The fact that all the old lume has literally fallen off worries me - where is it? and how big are the lume particles. Dry lume dust will be easy to breathe in and how are you going to get rid of them?

I know I may seem to be a fussy old pedant, but I am only giving you my take on the situation. Surely, an experienced watch repairer who knows how to deal with old lume, and who has the right equipment, is your best bet. Also, when it comes to the question of whether or not to buy a radiation detector, I am with Mel and I feel it won't really add to your armoury - and I am even less impressed by the idea of a mobile phone app for this. Sorry to be so negative, just want to keep you in rude health.


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## jnash

> Dear jnash
> 
> You have been warned! I really think that this is not a sensible job to be doing without proper precautions. The radioactive elements we are dealing with here have a very long half-life and if little bits of old lume get in your body they may be there permanently, giving off ionising radiation to the organs from close range. The fact that all the old lume has literally fallen off worries me - where is it? and how big are the lume particles. Dry lume dust will be easy to breathe in and how are you going to get rid of them?
> 
> I know I may seem to be a fussy old pedant, but I am only giving you my take on the situation. Surely, an experienced watch repairer who knows how to deal with old lume, and who has the right equipment, is your best bet. Also, when it comes to the question of whether or not to buy a radiation detector, I am with Mel and I feel it won't really add to your armoury - and I am even less impressed by the idea of a mobile phone app for this. Sorry to be so negative, just want to keep you in rude health.


The glass is cracked, looks like it has taken a hit. and the lume is in blobs loose (prob due to the knock) I intend to wear a mask and remove all remaining lume off the dial. i will replace with new paint matching the colour.

its a really nice alarm pocket watch. looking around on the internet (http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/luminous.htm) i can dispose this normally as it is a small amount, and like i said i will have a mask and gloves and clean my desk afterwards so i should be okay. Im sure there are practically millions of hobbyists around that come across this all the time and not even realise.

The add-on for the phone is this by the way www.radiation-watch.co.uk

I come on here for advice and i appreciate every one taking the time to chime in

J


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## antony

If you have any worries it might be radio active its probabally best not touched at all .


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## Thomasr

jnash said:


> Ive got to work on some watches that radium is all over the place, before i open up the case, wanted to check them out, but the gieger counters are expensive..


DO NOT work on radium lumed watches, its not worth the risk, with a half life of 1600 years its still just as radioactive as when it was made, i have been advised by many well informed people in the trade to get shot of all watches with radium lume, as it presents a genuine health risk even in the case, more so if your out servicing them

Regards


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## jnash

Yeah you guys are right, also the gieger is pants (got my refund already) , i do have to ask though, how can i tell its radium.. i just automatically assumed it is .. are there any pointers, heres some pics...










i intend to clear the lume and replace?

Thanks in advance


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## Thomasr

Noooooooooooooo!! leave it alone!!!!


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## jnash

So how can i confirm this is defintaely radium?


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## chris.ph

Lick it, if it tastes like radium its radium lol


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## guymark

Many folks on here have made practical, sensible comments about risk evaluation, the only thing I would add however is the moment you have a 20'2 / 30's / 40's watch with a heavily lumed dial AND a cracked glass, if it IS radium based lume, then you really do have a different level of risk from a 1960's lumed watch with an intact casing.

Towards the sixities, the amount of radium had been reduced to a tiny fraction of the concentration used before - partly for safety reasons, partly for cost reasons and partly because better phosphors were used which simply needed less alpha stimulation. So a "modern" watch with a little bit of lume on the hands may have HUNDREDS of times less activity than a watch from the 1920's which had thickly applied radium lume to the hands, the numerals and sometimes a few extra DOTS and bits for good measure.

By no means a guaranteed analysis - BUT typically if a hand has green coloured radioactive lume, it is usually a newer watch. If it is brown, then this is typically because the radium level was high enough in the older watches to burn the once-green coloured phosphor.

This watch seems to be HEAVILY lumed.

If you absolutely insist on doing this, please can you try the following:

1. Work OUTSIDE ideally but whatever you do, absolutely NOT an area where food is prepared or eaten

2. Wear disposable gloves if possible and an a dispoable painters apron (about Â£1) from Wilkinsons / 99p shop etc

3. Buy one of those cheapo dust masks from Wilkinsons

4. Consider using a "damping down" mist of a gentle solvent like ethanol (meths)

5. Plonk some polythene or paper down on the bench so that anything that drops out / falls out / flakes off isn't "lost to the floor" to be trodden back into the house

6. When finished, put bench cover, gloves, mask, disposable painting apron etc into a poly bag and poke them into the opening of a large empty plastic milk container. Stick lid on.

7. Really go to town on washing your hands / wrists.

At this stage, disposing of the plastic jug full of contaminated material is no more hazardous that disposing of the watch - certainly in the condition it is now. Withouth plonking a geiger counter near it though, it isn't possible to be sure - but it certainly LOOKS very much like scorched lume to me.

Less than Â£5 of bits from the hardware store really might be worth it just to be on the safe side, but clearly your watch and your call


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