# Pristine WW1 pocket watch



## Daveyboyz (Mar 9, 2016)

At an antique fair today and this jumped out as a particularly fresh looking watch, when drawn to the attention of the person I was with (who usually has little interest in watches) it was rapidly bought on a whim.

All that is obvious about it is the military crows foot and the G.S.T.P standing for general service time piece and the dial design dating it to around the first world war. The movement is not marked with any makers name and neither is the dial -it just says adjusted in 3 positions and 15 jewelled Swiss made. There is a star and inside the back of the case not much aside from the signature of a watchmaker scratched into it and a stamp of the letter B.

The ring at the top is stiff, indicating it has not been or as hardly been worn on a chain.... and aside from that I can tell no more about the piece (pocket watches not being any area of knowledge for me) any comments or observations would be welcomed particularly with regard to origin/maker and specific date of production.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2017)

Wow what a find.

I am no expert on military watches, my first reaction is that the watch and especially the dial are in remarkable condition, almost too remarkable given it's military issue and probably over 100 years old. I would expect the radium to be black by now with age and moisture exposure, if you hold the dial up to the light and take it away does it glow at all? Could be helpful in deciding if it's radium or not. Normally if the watch is unworn the hands will burn radiation in the dial face, I don't see that here. Even after 100 years the radium has only loss something like 4% of it's intensity, after all the half-life is 1600 years.

Must have sat in a drawer since the big one.

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will offer some insight.


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## Pip (Jul 19, 2016)

Can't offer any info at all but I'm looking forward to hearing more about it when someone who can help contribute, looks like it's in remarkable condition assuming it's as old as you suspect.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Your pocket watch is just too "plain" to be identified, except of course its War department designation. I have no doubt at all that the dial has been lumed with radium-activated phosphor, and I have encountered quite a few genuine watches from the period of yours where the lume looks as yours does.

Given the nature of the lume, please do not open the front of the watch if you can avoid it, and whatever you do, don't disturb the remaining lume. Just treat the watch with respect and enjoy it as it is.


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## davidcxn (Nov 4, 2010)

Lovely pocket watch which looks to be in great condition.

Hope the information in this link.....

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?69372-G-s-t-p-military-pocket-watch-identify

is of some help / interest.


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## Daveyboyz (Mar 9, 2016)

I will do the experiments on whether the lume still has any function when I get a chance...a good tip Horlogerie...

On this one I bought the seller rather than the piece... in that I know my knowledge in this field is limited. The gentleman had a stall with several boxes full of watches... none expensive but every watch had something to it... his stock would have been a wet dream for most of the members of this forum... there were Roamers, Mudu, Walthams, Elgins, Bensons, Tudor, Garrard etc etc this list went on. When I began to chat to the gentleman it was clear that this was his full personal collection of watches, his enthusiasm was great and he was quite honest of his ignorance when we educated him on some of his silver items (for instance that the silver thing he had marked as a vesta was unlikely to be since it had nowhere to strike a match) he was not however ignorant on any topic clockwork related.

Regardless with such a range of high quality stock, including plenty of clocks that he personally took hours to work on and repair even if they were not financially viable it was clear he loved watches... so when he told me that this was one of the best condition WW1 watches he had ever seen and then showed me 2 or 3 others of the same style but in considerable worse condition I believed that he was genuine and honest. That this particular piece was bartered down to below £100 it seemed that a purchase was not sticking out neck out too much.


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## Daveyboyz (Mar 9, 2016)

P.S. How you managed to pluck that thread out so quickly is beyond me David, its clearly the same watch (aside from the different colour dial) what I took from the thread is that the B likely stands for Bernheim and on that watch they found FEF written under the dial when it was removed... I am not going to remove my dial but they made some connection to _Fleurier _which then led them to Timor... all of which means nothing to me ^^


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

Just a couple of observations. While it is true that this style of watch was iconic to WW1 such watches (especially those made for the British) were actually produced up until the 30s and even 40s.

The dial and the lume indeed look very good and I am a little suspicious about it, to be honest. Usually, regardless of whether it's a WW1 era or WW2 era these watches will still look weathered down (such as the color of the dial fading). Is it paint or porcelain ? Porcelain will mostly retain its color but paint won't.

The watch itself has obvious signs of wear (the many small scuff marks on the case back) and signs of servicing on the movement (scuff marks on the movement as well).

Could it be that, maybe, the dial has been replaced or reconditioned at a later time ? The hands show signs of aging as well but the dial does not. Also something to look for.

Really nice watch nonetheless.
PS: I believe the GSTP hallmark dates it to WW2.


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## Daveyboyz (Mar 9, 2016)

Thanks for the comments gimli, the signs of wear I noticed were particularly those on the back, but then I thought that would be consistent to it rattling around in a drawer which also keeps the dial from fading but I believe the dial is porcelain, and same as my with old Longines I am always suspicious of redials, in this case I actually aired the concern with the gentleman who dismissed the possibility out of hand... but the later date of the GSTP mark is good information, are there specific dates that this mark was used? The marks on the movement were not considered, I actually thought the movt suspiciously clean for such an old item.

@Horlogerie holding it to a bright light there seems to be zero luminosity either on the hands or the dial, zip, nada, nowt, nischt, zilch, sweet FA.

A brief search for GSTP found the following information on the Royalsignals.org site :

*Watches G.S.T.P. Or G.S./T.P.*
Any collector of British issue watches will have several 19'" jewelled lever pocket instruments with their plated snap-on case-back engraved G.S.T.P. or G.S./T.P. Not uncommonly (and in a different style) some have also been later engraved with the name of one of the High Street jewellers. 'Bravingtons London', 4. I believe that practice to date from 1946-48, when the of Ministry of Supply sold off various surplus watches and clocks to a value exceeding £ 2.000.000. Opinions differ as to the meaning of 'T.P.' Röhner prefers 'Temporary Pattern'. My own preference is for Mr. W. P. Roseman's 'Trade Pattern'.

As carlier mentioned, the door had opened in 1903 to issue of watches "... of ordinary Trade Patterns...", but specific reference to Watches, G.S.T.P. Or G.S./T.P, was very uncommon in the literature I studied. Indeed, I remain uncertain as to which of the Swiss factories should be listed as suppliers of the movements. In supposing that the £ 3.664 spent overseas in Financial Year l936-37 was for G.S.T.P. Or G.S./T.P., the relevant report is not helpful. The entry reads: "Watches....Swiss. British supplies in excess of preference limits or unobtainable".

About all it seems safe to state here is, that Watches, G.S.T.P., 4, were collectively deleted from the 1954 List at February 3rd 1957, when Watches, G.S./T.P. branded Omega, Record, Cortebert, Lemania, Thommen, Recta, Buren, Doxa, Unitas and F.E.F. Were individually struck out, also.

However, bearing in mind that apparent discrepancies may be no more than the result of someone re-casing a movement, it seems worthwhile to mention that I have also encountered G.S.T.P, and GS/T.P. watches branded Damas (Beguelin), Cymy (Tavannes), Enicar (Fontainemelon), Helvetia (General Watch), Jaeger le Coultre, Montilier, Revue (Thommen) and Tissot (S.S.I.H.). In addition, of course there are also some American Waltham and Elgin pocket watches requiring explanation, whose only case-marking is a Broad Arrow, accompanied either by the movement number, or by a smaller secondary number, or by both. Movement numbers suggest a production in 1943 and 1944, but I have so far failed to trace any mention of them in my sources.


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

Without a doubt some information should lie in the serial number on the case back but I can't seem to find anything on the internet. But it should be out there somewhere.

Finding some collectors of such watches might shed some light as they, sometimes, have information that is unavailable on the internet.

The movement on your watch is indeed clean but that is because it was serviced. It does have marks on it which were made during several servicing operations (as it happens, sometimes). Here is a picture of a similar watch from the same period that has no marks on the movement (posted by someone on a different thread). Also worth checking out this thread.

http://xflive.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/107845-cyma-fake-or-not/&do=embed










All in all it's a nice watch and you paid a good price for it. Would be interesting to see who the manufacturer is.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2017)

I would expect that the lack of any residual glow after light charging confirms that it is radium. How it managed to stay in such great condition is impressive. As already stated be careful you don't want to breath or ingest any radium, it can lead to cancer.

The dial should be enamel not porceline.


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## Daveyboyz (Mar 9, 2016)

Is there a way to confirm the dial material without deconstruction? I just assumed it looks like porcelain therefore it must be porcelain, but if you say it should be enamel I must be incorrect. How to determine the difference through glass?


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2017)

If my memory serves me well, I don't think there were ever any porcelin dials, they are all enamel. I could be wrong, but I remember reading in one of my books that enamel is what these dials are made of, not porcelin.

If you remove the dial, chances are you will see the copper base and this will confirm it's enamel.

Maybe someone can provide insight or correct me.

EDIT - found this

Enamel dials were made by firing a layer (or several layers) of ground enamel powder (essentially finely ground glass) onto a substrate of metal (usually copper). The enamel was applied to both the front and back of the copper plate in order to provide additional stiffness to the dial. The front surface was then polished and the numerals and markers were painted on and then re-fired to produce a hard, durable and attractive finish. Enamel dial-making was a labor intensive process that was as much art as it was manufacturing, and finding and preserving these wonderful old dials should be a priority for vintage watch collectors.

Enamel dials are quite often* incorrectly called porcelain dials.* *They are NOT made of porcelain, *which has no metal substrate and is a different material altogether. The correct term is enamel dial. Some watch collectors will say "Well it's called porcelain enamel."* No... it isn't. It's only called that by people who don't know that it should be called enamel.*


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

@Horlogerie is probably right. I believe porcelain has a certain specific glow under certain light conditions. The indexes and markers would have looked slightly different if it was porcelain.

I've seen watches being advertised as having porcelain dials but I guess someone could have been wrong and they were enamel.

The beautiful Hebdomas watches are usually advertised as having porcelain dials but I can't be sure. Here's some pictures that shows some damage which might infirm or confirm that they're enamel or porcelain. It looks like porcelain to me.

http://picclick.co.uk/Lot-of-FIVE-porcelain-dials-for-Hebdomas-8-131954828407.html

PS: Some light researching points out that actually all dials are enamel but some have an extra layer of transparent enamel which makes it look like porcelain (the glass like transparent layer is added over the markers, indexes, etc. giving it a distinct look; they are also more expensive).


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

I believe your dial is enamlled as was most earlier dials but are often mistaken for porcelain (I've made the mistake).

Porcelain dials date back to the 16th century & consist of ground enamel powder fired on a copper or silver plate. This process may be repeated several times.

Then decoration, numerals, indices are applied, followed by further clear enamel as @gimli has indicated.

There are examples of some Chinese timepieces with 'porcelain dials' but these are extremely rare.

As @Horlogerie as indicated be wary of interfering with the radium on the dial.

Porcelain dials can be restored but it is an expensive process, personally I would leave examples as is (part of it's history).

To restore a radium dial to a modern safer alternative is extremely expensive, JB costs start at a £1000, I know & have seen it done personally.

Yours looks a nice original example.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

@Horlogerie

Apologies Rob, just noticed I've repeated your previous addendum. :tumbleweed:


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## Daveyboyz (Mar 9, 2016)

Ok so I was just one of these people that was incorrectly using the term porcelain out of ignorance ^^ and because I had heard others saying the same. Now I know more than those guys!

Thanks for the education, it is always a pleasure to find out something new


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## antony (Dec 28, 2007)

Very nice piece, i have a few military pocket watches & stop watches, i think the couple i have are both american made, both are rather used, but they both still work.

its just nice because the the watch has history,even though it was probabally never used.

good find.


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## tixntox (Jul 17, 2009)

In my experience, the "immaculate" pieces were often ones that had lain in storage between the wars, no doubt in oiled brown paper, then sold off in military auctions along with boots, socks, shirts etc, to be seen on most 1950/60's high streets in the "ex army" stores of the era. Many of us wore the khaki, but the only fighting we did was coming out of the pub on a Saturday night. As to pocket watches in the 50's and 60's, only your grandad would have one!

Mike


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