# Puma 7A38 .... By Orient



## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

I am not a big fan of sports-branded fashion apparel :thumbsdown: - and especially football-related brands. :yucky:

In fact, I'd go as far as to say I wouldn't be seen dead in anything by the likes of Adidas, Puma or Umbro. :bad:

It seems, however, that I may have to make a small exception in the case of Puma.

Amongst other 'sports fashion accessories', they sell watches, and have done for many years.

They've a big home market in Germany, natÃ¼rlich. I found this marketing 'spiel' on a German website:



> Puma was founded as the Dassler Brothersâ€™ Shoe Factory in Herzogenaurach, Germany, in 1924. Puma watches are focussed on uniting the influences of the world of sport, lifestyle and fashion, a target that can be clearly seen in the current watch collection â€" ladiesâ€™ and menâ€™s sports watches that equally symbolise the brandâ€™s characteristics such as unmistakable styling, individuality, spontaneity and international appeal. In terms of functionality, Puma wristwatches are deeply rooted in the world of sports and are connected to the unforgettable sports performance of excellent athletes that have written history in the arenas of the world.


I'd suspect however, that Puma don't actually manufacture their own watches.


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

Before I waffle on any further, though .... 

I'd like to say a big 'Thank You' :hi: to both Derek ('Luvwatch') and Paul('66') :cheers: ....

.... who both, almost simultaneously emailed me the eBay auction link, on 2nd January - within minutes of each other.



> *Puma!!*
> 
> Hi Paul, and Happy New Year - saw this auction below, looks suspiciously like a 7A38?





> *PUMA 7A38??????????????????*
> 
> First one I have seen! Got to be a must have for you Paul surely?


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

See: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250750999357

*Seltener Puma Herren Chronograph,Reg.Nr.Y 19001-70 CA*

















(seller's listing included 6 photos of varying quality)



> Seltener orginal Puma Herrenchronograph mit Tages und Datumsanzeige.
> 
> Uhr und Chronographen unktionieren einwandfrei.
> 
> ...


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

Whereas, both Derek and Paul quoted the magic word '7A38' (implying Seiko) ....

and the familiar tri-compax sub-dial day + date configuration obviously suggests that,

as soon as I saw the eBay listing and the sellerâ€™s photos, and particularly this image:










.... of the case-back stampings, I was thinking Orient (J39), rather than Seiko (7A38). :smartass:

Note the similarities of the Puma Y19001-70 stampings to those of an Orient J39 case-back:










Indeed, I was considering tacking this onto the existing Orient J39 thread: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52124 

But as there appear to be a certain few forum members who dislike my habit of replying to my own threads :tongue2:

.... Iâ€™ve started a new one. :wink2:


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Indeed, I was considering tacking this onto the existing Orient J39 thread ....


Well, maybe it's just as well that I didn't (in hindsight). :blush:

I only picked this up from my local Royal Fail snorting office at tea-time.

So I hadn't really had the time to study it in detail, before I started writing the thread. :hypocrite:

That'll teach me to be a :smartass:









Whereas there are some obvious similarities to the (3) Orient J39's I already have in my collection ....

.... and possibly even a high proportion of common / shared parts, which I'll go on to explain in detail ....

I thought I'd just unscrew the case-back to confirm my suspicions of how the movement was signed. :hammer:

Expecting to find Orient and J3920, rather than Seiko and 7A38(A) - right ? 

Wrong. :thumbsdown:

How about *JEPIC Corp.* and *Y19* ??? 

It seems my epic 7A38 voyage of discovery continues unabated. :lookaround:

A quick google on JEPIC Corp., reveals: Japan Electric Power Information Center, Inc.


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## new2the7A38 (Oct 6, 2010)

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> I am not a big fan of sports-branded fashion apparel :thumbsdown: - and especially football-related brands. :yucky:
> 
> In fact, I'd go as far as to say I wouldn't be seen dead in anything by the likes of Adidas, Puma or Umbro. :bad:
> 
> ...


Did you know (or care...). The two Dassler brothers split in 1948. Rudolph forming Puma...and his brother Adolf (nicknamed "Adi") formed....ta dah....Adidas (ADI DASsler). And now you know the rest of the story...lol.


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

new2the7A38 said:


> Did you know (or care...). The two Dassler brothers split in 1948. Rudolph forming Puma...and his brother Adolf (nicknamed "Adi") formed....ta dah....Adidas (ADI DASsler). And now you know the rest of the story...lol.


Yes, I did know :wink2: - but really didn't care. :schmoll:

I've seen various articles in the UK press over the last few years. :read:

Example here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/puma-vs-adidas-return-of-the-battle-of-the-boots-475377.html

More recently: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1214426/Adidas-Puma-end-bitter-feud-60-years.html



> For more than 60 years, the family feud has divided two of the world's biggest sporting brands.
> 
> It was sparked by an Allied bombing raid and has *taken in* the Nazi party, Olympic skulduggery and some of the biggest ....


Just strikes me as publicity seeking - advertising on the cheap. '*Taken in*' being the operative words. 

Now if there was also an Adidas '7A38' out there, to be found .... that's another story. :naughty:


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Whereas there are some obvious similarities to the (3) Orient J39's I already have in my collection ....
> 
> .... and possibly even a high proportion of common / shared parts, which I'll go on to explain in detail ....


So why was I so convinced (still am) that despite the JEPIC Corp. stampings, that this watch was made by Orient ? :dontgetit:

Well I did a complete strip down on it yesterday - mostly to give it a good clean. :hammer:

I was hoping for some better light, this morning, to take photos. Doesn't look like I'm going to get it. 

So here, first of all is a Q&D (by flash







) of the dial face / movement:










As you can see, the (visible) dial face printing at the bottom is is identical: *JAPAN S1 001*

The printing which is hidden under the Tachymeter dial ring is *Y190 3017* - a very similar format to the Orient J39.

See quote and photo from the Orient J39 thread below.

And I'm pretty sure I've seen that main handset used on various Orient watches too.











SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Other than 'Orient' being printed in the correct font, all other scripts are in standard Seiko fonts -
> 
> Including the small dial face identifiers either side of the 6 o'clock subdial ....
> 
> ...


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

The watch case; same gold-plated (Seiko ?) 3.5mm Ã˜ x 6.5mm pushers and 4.5mm Ã˜ x 3.0mm crown are all identical.

*Puma Y19* (Movement stamped JEPIC CORP. Y19):










*Orient J39* (Movement stamped Orient J3920):










The only differences being the bezels fitted - gold-plated rotating 'Diver style' on the Orient; two-tone fixed on the Puma.


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

In this photo, you can see the edge of the machined surface - the track on which the Orient J39's 'Diver' bezel would turn:










Obviously, the fixed bezel on the Puma version needed to be this chunky to cover the Orient's 'Diver bezel' flange.

In fact, it also uses exactly the same 31.0mm Ã˜ x 2.55mm crystal (with a 45Â° polished bevelled edge) as the Orient.

A total over-kill, in this case - but necessary (only) to fill the depth of the bezel - and expediency, I suspect.

The original crystal was quite badly scratched. For the time being I've fitted a Seiko p/n 310W64GN00 ....

as used in the 7A28-7040/9; 7A38-7070/-7080, etc. It's 31.0mm Ã˜ x 2.0 thick (with a 45Â° polished bevelled edge),

But I'll replace it soon with a 31.0mm Ã˜ x 2.5mm thick crystal - probably one without the bevelled edge.

I can't see any purpose to having that bevelled edge on this watch - other than to catch dust and muck.

Here's another photo of the head, again by flash







, unfortunately:










Note the slightly different Tachymeter dial ring used in the Puma ....

The words TACHY METER are to the left of '60', and printed with a gap.


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

Moving onto the bracelet(s) ....

Similarities between the Orient and Puma bracelets are all too obvious (again classic heavy Seiko folded-link construction):

*Orient*:



















*Puma*:










Note: exactly the same (large sized) arrows stamped on the back of the removeable adjustment links.

The bracelets are both fixed with the same (again larger than most Seiko 7A38's) 20mm x 1.8mm Ã˜ spring-bars:

*Orient*:










*Puma*:










Apart from the obvious similarity of their case-back stampings ....

The Orient J39 bracelet(s) are stamped *SA160*, and the Puma's is stamped *SA165*. Same place, same tooling.


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

Remember that (badly graunched) short clasp closer, which came fitted on my most recently acquired Orient J39 ? :huh:



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> It came fitted with a different style shorter Orient signed clasp to that fitted to the ex-Kurt J39601-70.
> 
> That's probably the most graunched part of the watch. Also, I'm convinced that the Z-fold isn't original. :thumbsdown:
> 
> This is what came fitted on the bracelet. I believe that the clasp closer is the original (but not the Z-fold part):


Well, if these two 16mm bracelet clasps weren't stamped by virtually identical press tools - I'm a Dutchman ! :hammer:










Sadly, the Puma bracelet has had a few adjustment links removed. As found, it was too small to fit my 7Â½" wrist. 

Which means, for the time being, I'll be fitting one of Cousins' generic 16mm clasps:


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

So there you have it ....

Puma Y19 by the Orient Watch Company - or by SEIKO Corporation, if it was actually they who built the Orient J39's. 

The $64K question remains: Who is JEPIC Corp., and what was their actual involvement in manufacturing the watch ? :huh:



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> A quick google on JEPIC Corp., reveals: Japan Electric Power Information Center, Inc.


Not only is this Puma Y19001-70's (7A38) movement's backplate stamped JEPIC CORP. (and Y19) ....

But it's also stamped inside the case-back (which again is dimensionally identical to the Orient J39's):










PS - I'll follow up with some better (non flash







) photos of the Puma Y19, when I've changed the crystal (once again) ....

.... and the available (day)light improves.


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## watchking1 (Nov 14, 2007)

> - I'm a Dutchman !


 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

watchking1 said:


> > - (Then) I'm a Dutchman !
> 
> 
> :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


Erm  I think we may be having a slight Trans-Atlantic communication problem here, Skip. :help:

(As was apparently the case with 'Mechanical Alarm' in another 7A38 thread, last week).

See: http://englishwithsunil.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/and-i-am-a-dutchman-or-then-i-am-a-dutchman/ ..... You're not supposed to be agreeing with me ! :no: :rofl2:


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## Chromejob (Jul 28, 2006)

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> ... Indeed, I was considering tacking this onto the existing Orient J39 thread: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52124
> 
> But as there appear to be a certain few forum members who dislike my habit of replying to my own threads :tongue2:
> 
> .... Iâ€™ve started a new one. :wink2:


BS. It's EASIER to follow along and find your investigations when they're continuing in a single thread. My 2p.

Regardless, it's an appealing watch (and you know how I don't like some of these) with a really nice dial (I particularly like the dial and hand colors).


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

David Spalding said:


> It's EASIER to follow along and find your investigations when they're continuing in a single thread.


In hindsight, it certainly would have saved me some copying and pasting between the two threads, David ! :sweatdrop:

However, because it isn't (officially) an Orient J39, but a Puma Y19 by JEPIC Corp. .... I thought it deserved it's own.









PS: Next time I update the Orient J39 thread, I'll cross-reference this one. O.K.? :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2011)

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> The $64K question remains: Who is JEPIC Corp., and what was their actual involvement in manufacturing the watch ? :huh:


Lol. Great name for a company. Sounds as though they might have made watches for superheroes.


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

Om_nom_nom_Watches! said:


> Lol. Great name for a company. Sounds as though they might have made watches for superheroes.


Did you miss my earlier little attempt at wordplay, Rob ?











SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> How about *JEPIC Corp.* and *Y19* ???
> 
> It seems my *epic* 7A38 voyage of discovery continues unabated. :lookaround:
> 
> A quick google on JEPIC Corp., reveals: Japan Electric Power Information Center, Inc.


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> I'll follow up with some better (non flash
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm rather disappointed by the results. This is the best of a bad bunch:










This 'warts and all' photo shows up the badly-worn plated sections of the two-tone bezel - in dire need of re-plating.

Fitting a replacement crystal of the correct 2.5mm thickness (but with a smaller polished bevel edge than the original),

seems to have served little purpose - other than to highlight the fact that the crystal is held in by a white nylon gasket.

I presume this is a Sternkruez part (same gasket used on the Orient J39's). I may try changing it for a black Seiko one.

It wasn't so apparent with the original (scratched) crystal fitted, but then that did have a ring of dirt trapped around it's edge.

Moral of the story ? Instead of diving in and buying the first example I come across, simply because it's a very rare 7A38 ....

Wait for a better example to come along. If one ever does, that is. But the temptation at the time is usually over-powering.


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

SEIKO7A38 said:


> .... of the case-back stampings, I was thinking Orient (J39), rather than Seiko (7A38). :smartass:
> 
> Note the similarities of the Puma Y19001-70 stampings to those of an Orient J39 case-back:
> 
> Indeed, I was considering tacking this onto the existing Orient J39 thread .... http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52124


It now seems I've been fully vindicated in my earlier assumptions that the Puma Y19's were made by Orient,

with my recent 'discovery' of the Orient J39725-70 - which is effectively Orient's own version of the Puma Y19:










See Page 8 of My Newest Incoming 7A38 - Sorry- Orient J39....

Before I forget, here's another photo of the Puma Y19001-70 which I hadn't included in this thread:


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

SEIKO7A38 said:


> Moral of the story ? Instead of diving in and buying the first example I come across, simply because it's a very rare 7A38 ....
> 
> Wait for a better example to come along. If one ever does, that is. But the temptation at the time is usually over-powering.


So what had I done (yet again), particularly with this latest Orient J39 'beater', on the wrong bracelet. 

Having immediately recognized that this Orient J39 and the Puma Y19 shared a lot of common parts ....

My first thought was to have a look for another Puma Y19, to re-case the Orient J39's panda dial into.

First port of call - eBay Germany - home of Puma (natÃ¼rlich). What did I find, almost straight away ? 

*PUMA Quartz - Chronograph - titanisiert in Bi-Color-Optik - 80er Jahre - TOP*












> *Die Uhr hat fÃ¼r ihr Alter (gekauft 1989) nur wenige Gebrauchsspuren.*
> 
> *
> Das GehÃ¤use und das Gliederarmband sind titanisiert (dunkelgrau)*
> ...


Not quite what I was looking for, but a different 'Titanium'-colour coated version of the Puma Y19 - model Y19*2*01-70.

It arrived this morning.  Vielen Dank, Werner. :thumbsup:

Despite the scratched crystal, odd dings and some rubbing wear to the bracelet coating and bezel plating ....

It's in pretty nice used, but well-cared-for condition - much better than my previous Puma Y19001-70.

It came with the original box, instructions and guarantee - and the bonus of a spare adjustment link.

A bit of decent (sun) daylight permitting at the weekend, and I'll attempt a few photos of my own.


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

SEIKO7A38 said:


> It came with the original box, instructions and guarantee ....


I was half hoping that little leaflet might give some clues as to the watch's origins / manufacturer.

But it turned out to be just a 'generic' Puma leaflet for all their quartz watches (best ignore the '2011' printed on the reverse)

without any instructions for this model's chronograph operation. No mention of Seiko, Orient, nor even 'Made in Japan'. :no:



















Despite however what the seller perhaps knowingly wrote in his eBay listing description:



> *Das Uhrwerk ist noch eines aus der "guten, qualitÃ¤tsvollen Zeit" von SEIKO!*


I've had the case-back off, and the movement back-plate is again stamped *JEPIC CORP. Y19* - as expected, this time. :grin:


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## Chromejob (Jul 28, 2006)

You, sir, are the Indiana Jones of 7A38s. I hear the "brump-da-da-DAAAAAH" theme whenever I check into these threads. :cheers:


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

David Spalding said:


> You, sir, are the Indiana Jones of 7A38s.


Cheers, David. :hi: I prefer to think of myself as the 'Dick Tracy', actually - hence the avatar. :grin:



David Spalding said:


> I hear the "brump-da-da-DAAAAAH" theme (
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Theme music to Warren Beatty's 1990 re-make of Dick Tracy isn't bad, either:


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

SEIKO7A38 said:


> I was half hoping that little leaflet might give some clues as to the watch's origins / manufacturer.
> 
> But it turned out to be just a 'generic' Puma leaflet .... No mention of Seiko, Orient, nor even 'Made in Japan'. :no:


But there is one clue printed on the bottom of that leaflet as to the importers / facilitators - if not the actual manufacturers:

C.Melchers (GmbH) & Co. - who are still very much in business in the Far East today. See: http://www.melchers.com.sg/










More C.Melchers' asian company locations involved in watch imports here: http://www.melchers.com/EN/default.aspx?TabId=30&BusinessId=50&CountryId=0


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

David Spalding said:


> SEIKO7A38 said:
> 
> 
> > .... I was considering tacking this onto the existing Orient J39 thread: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52124
> ...


Maybe David was right, perhaps it would have been easier if I had kept the two threads together, after all. :think:



SEIKO7A38 said:


> Sisters under the skin - the Orient J39725-70 and Puma / JEPIC Y19001-70. Many common parts, including the hand set.
> 
> I now feel fully vindicated in having titled that other thread: *Puma 7A38 .... By Orient*


Anyway, here's a side-by-side photo of my latest Orient J39725-70 'beater' with my original 'stainless' Puma Y19001-70:










To further reinforce the (now completely obvious) Orient / Puma connection, please compare these next two photos of

the case-back of the *very* similar 'Gunmetal' colour coated (ex-Kurt) Orient J39601-70 (also posted on the previous page):



SEIKO7A38 said:


> Apart from the obvious similarity of their case-back stampings ....
> 
> The Orient J39 bracelet(s) are stamped *SA160*, and the Puma's is stamped *SA165*. Same place, same tooling.


.... with my recently arrived second 'Titanium-colour-coated' Puma - the Y19201-70:










Case (now completely) proven I believe, M'Lud. :smartass:

Note also the watchmaker's mark engraved on the uppermost corner lug. :blind: Please excuse the odd bit of lint. :grin:


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## SEIKO7A38 (Feb 12, 2009)

SEIKO7A38 said:


> A bit of decent (sun) daylight permitting at the weekend, and I'll attempt a few photos of my own.


In fact, I took dozens of photos of the Puma Y19201-70 on Sunday morning. Problem was, sorting out which to use. :umnik2:

It's a difficult one to photograph, capturing the dial detail *and* getting the colour right at the same time. So here's a few. :grin:





































Plus one of the bracelet, which probably more than any of the above reflects the true colour of the 'Titanium' coating:










Funnily enough, just like the similar-coloured Orient J39601-70 ....



SEIKO7A38 said:


> Couple of other observations about the bracelet, which I forgot to mention in that earlier post:
> 
> Interestingly, the gold-plated ornaments on the bracelet are integral to the main links, rather than separate stampings.
> 
> Where the bracelet has a few scratches and rubbing wear between link sections, it shows gold plating under the gunmetal coating â€" which means that the bracelet was first gold plated, then a further gunmetal coating added on top afterwards.


.... the 'Titanium' colour coating of the Puma Y19201-70 also appears to be applied over the gold plating. Quel surprise (not).

Lastly, if I can squeeze an extra one in (the edit window seems to allow you to add one extra linked image over the 5 :naughty

The new (to me) 'Titanium' (or whatever colour) coated Puma Y19201-70 alongside my original 'stainless' Y19001-70:










Both have been fitted with Cousins 31.0mm Ã˜ x 2.5mm crystals, until I can find something that better matches the original.

I've also replaced the pushers (with similar NOS Seiko parts) on the 'Ti' version, as their gold plating was quite badly worn.


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