# Longines Ultra-quartz



## Silver Hawk

The Longines Ultra-Quartz has finally arrived....not mine sadly, but one that someone wanted me to take a look at...and a watch that I dearly wanted to see in person, since it is like no other. :blink:

Having handled one, I think it has now become a grail for me...I _must_ own one . It makes no sense: its quartz and I don't really go for quartz, its going to be difficult to find a good one and expensive too... and if it fails, it is highly unlikely that it can ever be repaired. This one has already been back to Longines and it was immediately sent back to the owner with a polite note indicating that they can no longer work on these. I still want one :sadwalk:

This one doesn't work... but more on that in a minute.

Here is what it looks like first:




























Someone was asking about back setting watches earlier today....well here is another:










And finally why I want one....this amazing Cal 6512 movement...the World's First (and only) Cybernetic Watch. It first appeared in 1967 as a prototype and went on sale in 1971.










More to follow....


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## Griff




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## Silver Hawk

This is the owner's spare, non-working, Ultra-Quartz and he was wondering if it could be made to work.... 

Luckily, he also sent me some fairly high level documentation on this movement...it's more of an introduction to the movement rather than a circuit diagram but it has proved useful as an introduction to the workings of this strange beast....and once you start looking at it, you start seeing marked similarities to the Accutrons and ESA 9162s....

So where do you start when trying to work out why this movement doesn't work? Well, I started at the Motor Module, the bit in red on the following diagram.










This is the part that has more than a few similarities to the hummers. It has a couple of large stationary magnets --- the two grey rectangles on the right hand side in the movement photo. Between these magnets, is a coil mounted on a torsion bar (the long brass rod) and at the far left hand side of the torsion bar, is the counter weight (round brass object on end of rod).

First job was to test the integrity of that coil...which meant removing the torsion bar assembly:










Note the index pawl half way down the torsion bar...exactly the same as an Accutron or ESA 9162...it drives an index wheel.










And here is the first failure. The coil is open circuit  and this is almost certainly due to poor handling by a watchmaker in the past; there are a number of small "dents" in the side of the coil. In addition, the coil was hard up against the side of one of the magnets --- it should not touch the magnets at all.

So I need to see if we can do something with this coil ...the Epperlein was a doddle compared to this. I have a few ideas to try but not tried them yet  . If I was a betting person, I bet it's only the coil that's faulty on this watch.

I'll post a few more pages from this document over the w/e.


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## Marky

Cybernetic.... what does cybernetic mean??? Anyone..............

I do love the way the hands move under the indicies, that's cool.

Good luck with getting it going Paul, if anyone can......


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## Steve R

Fascinating stuff as usual Paul, keep it coming, I love reading your technical/project threads... If I don't say anything more it's not because I'm not interested, it's just you make me feel like a total dunce... :lol:

Cheers,

Steve


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## mrteatime

wow..............


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## mel

Ye Gods and Little Fishes!! h34r: So we're looking at a torsion bar and coil assembly that's around *ONLY* 20mm, of which the coil looks to be 6mm by 3mm - now we can all appreciate why the Manufacturers don't want to try any repairs, but our Paul is maybe gonna try! :yes:

The coil has to have been made on a former of some kind to get that shape, and the wire guage is hair-thin, (looks less tha that actually) :fear: But, if the coil is OC, then that's got to be the first thing to re-do, otherwise it's no go for any of the rest of it!

Any help I can give? :to_become_senile: on second thoughts, I'll just watch from here :scare: :lol:


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## jasonm

All the best Paul...... :lol:


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## pg tips

Cybernetics

the study of human control functions and of mechanical and electronic systems designed to replace them, involving the application of statistical mechanics to communication engineering.

(from dictionary dot com)

I think what they were meaning in 1971 is that it keeps time mathematically and not mechanically

funny how language evolves, I always associate "cyber" with robots, cyborgs etc, too much sc-fi as a kid but today it seems it's more relevant with the internet, cyberspace, cyberchat, and even cybersex!!

good luck Hawkey.


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## seiko6139

I think that your only chance would be if you could source a donor with a good coil. Sorry


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## Boxbrownie

Thats a bloody amazing circuit and mechanism....almost...no...actually does look like a prototype in as much it seems cobbled together..........amazing, I love it!

Good luck that man........

Also compared with the piccy that piece appears to have an extra surface mount resistor in the bottom left corner, like its been doubled up!


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## mel

The coil touching the magnets looks to be a mechanical thing if the photo is correct - that shaft the torsion bar "pivots" up and down on looks to be skew whiff to me, where it should be absolutely straight I would have thought, but again, if you cant source a suitable coil, even that might be academic. 

Of course, Paul, you do realise if you get this working, you immediately establish a reputation such that Longines will point all of their UltraQuartz enquiries and Collectors straight to you? :yes:

And then you can charge whatever you think the Longines UltraQuartz market will stand :lol: Can I be your agent? (10%) :rofl:


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## ETCHY

Superb stuff, please keep posting info'. It's difficult to imagine now how "high end" quartz watches were all those years ago.

A cybernetic watch, how bloody cool is that !! unk:

Is there any chance of a pic' of it cased up, for the full effect ?

Dave


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## Silver Hawk

mel said:


> The coil touching the magnets looks to be a mechanical thing if the photo is correct - that shaft the torsion bar "pivots" up and down on looks to be skew whiff to me, where it should be absolutely straight I would have thought, but again, if you cant source a suitable coil, even that might be academic.
> 
> Of course, Paul, you do realise if you get this working, you immediately establish a reputation such that Longines will point all of their UltraQuartz enquiries and Collectors straight to you? :yes:
> 
> And then you can charge whatever you think the Longines UltraQuartz market will stand :lol: Can I be your agent? (10%) :rofl:


Mel, you are right about the torsion bar pivot; it is skew whiff and I have started straightening it.

But I fear I cannot repair the coil. I had hoped to use some Conductive Silver Paint from Maplins and went as far as buying some. Since I have a handful of OC Hamilton 505 coils, I thought I'd do a test run on a few of those --- find one that clearly has surface damage and paint on the silver to see if I can re-establish the circuit.

I tried one and was dismayed to find that the grains of silver in this paint are actually larger than the copper wire diameter. So it didn't work on this Hamilton test coil and I have no reason to believe it will work on this Longines one. :cry2:

That was Plan A....and I don't have a Plan B. This might be the end of this topic unless someone can come up with some other idea. :sadwalk:


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## Stanford

You have my utmost admiration, I wouldn't have a clue where to start, or a steady enough hand.

Good luck and I look forward to the next installment :yes:


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## Silver Hawk

Stanford said:


> Good luck and I look forward to the next installment :yes:


Thank you...but I don't think there's going to be one. :no:


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## Toshi

sorry to hear this Paul. I was hoping the silver paint idea would work.


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## Marky

Silver Hawk said:


> Thank you...but I don't think there's going to be one. :no:


Thats a shame. I hope you think of something


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## mel

Paul, I fear you may well be right - unless a donor coil can be found, you've not much chance of proving the rest of the watch, and that's certainly a bummer (rather than a hummer!) What's the chances of Messrs Longines having any of the coils, even if they're not interested (on economic grounds) in making repairs? Suppose it's maybe worth letter/e-mail ?? 

And you can guarantee some little old watchie's shop somewhere has got one and nobody left who knows what the hell it is - that's always the way.

"John, what TF is this?" _*Holding up coil and torsion bar assembly in tweezers*_

"Haven't a ferkin clue mate, that's old Smiffy's drawer, we keep that stuff in case it's ever going to be useful for something!"

Been there, popped into me old works a couple of weeks ago, and "MY" old drawer full of totally obsolete Radio Transmitter valves is still there, still full of the buggers! :yes: And I scrapped them in 1988 or thereabouts, just kept them "in case" the backup to the backup to the backup we had in the basement was ever put back into use. :lol:


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## foztex

very longshot Paul, but could you wind a replacement? I've used cheap in-ear headphones as a source of very fine wire in the past.

Certainly a fiddly job but it looks like it is simply a single coil for the motor (as opposed to the double wound accy jobbers) so it could be quite forgiving on the number of turns front.

The centre former could be shaved out of plastic and mounted on a long thin bolt, washers for the side formers and held in place with nuts. Mount the whole thing in a variable speed drill chuck (dremmel for instance) whizz on the wire, a dash of really thinned down varnish to penetrate and solidify the coil, then dismantle.

Wishful thinking perhaps, but that watch is fab and deserves a go I reckon.

Andy


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## Silver Hawk

Couple of good suggestions here...thanks guys!



mel said:


> What's the chances of Messrs Longines having any of the coils, even if they're not interested (on economic grounds) in making repairs? Suppose it's maybe worth letter/e-mail ??


Good idea...definitely worth an email to see if they have any parts hidden away in a dusty drawer.



foztex said:


> very longshot Paul, but could you wind a replacement? I've used cheap in-ear headphones as a source of very fine wire in the past.
> 
> Certainly a fiddly job but it looks like it is simply a single coil for the motor (as opposed to the double wound accy jobbers) so it could be quite forgiving on the number of turns front.
> 
> The centre former could be shaved out of plastic and mounted on a long thin bolt, washers for the side formers and held in place with nuts. Mount the whole thing in a variable speed drill chuck (dremmel for instance) whizz on the wire, a dash of really thinned down varnish to penetrate and solidify the coil, then dismantle.
> 
> Wishful thinking perhaps, but that watch is fab and deserves a go I reckon.
> 
> Andy


Mmmm...I'd been thinking along similar lines Andy....I used to rewind my own vintage motorcycle magnetos but this would be a lot more fiddly than those. Headphone wire sounds like an interesting idea...I estimate wire diameter to be about 0.05mm diameter (probably less); can't remember off hand what Hamilton used, but it looks the same. This would obviously be a major project I think...if it was my watch, I'd probably do it...but I'm not sure if I'm _that_ committed on someone elses watch. I need to email the owner.

Thanks again guys...any more ideas, please let me know. :thumbsup:


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## mel

If *(IF)* Andy is/was right, and you maybe don't need all the number of turns in the coils, I suppose you might be able to very gently peel back the wire till you come to the break and resolder from there - well it's not RF so there's not a frequency involved, but that does assume the break (OC) is near to the end of the winding. Sod's law will determine it won't be near whatever end you start with! :yes:

NO, I would think it would have to be a donor coil from somewhere! PITY! It's a cracking looking watch. :yes:


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## seiko6139

mel said:


> If *(IF)* Andy is/was right, and you maybe don't need all the number of turns in the coils, I suppose you might be able to very gently peel back the wire till you come to the break and resolder from there - well it's not RF so there's not a frequency involved, but that does assume the break (OC) is near to the end of the winding. Sod's law will determine it won't be near whatever end you start with! :yes:
> 
> NO, I would think it would have to be a donor coil from somewhere! PITY! It's a cracking looking watch. :yes:


Very true Mel. The inductance is not critical but the coil would need to have a similar DC resitance to the original one.


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## Boxbrownie

Then again you could just stick a cheap casio quartz module behind that GLORIOUS dial...... h34r: :lol:


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## Silver Hawk

Boxbrownie said:


> Then again you could just stick a cheap casio quartz module behind that GLORIOUS dial...... h34r: :lol:


Actually David....that is what the owner first suggested...until we remember that this is a back set case...so I'm not sure how we could drop a quartz movement into this case and dial.


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## ETCHY

Silver Hawk said:


> Boxbrownie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then again you could just stick a cheap casio quartz module behind that GLORIOUS dial...... h34r: :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually David....that is what the owner first suggested...until we remember that this is a back set case...so I'm not sure how we could drop a quartz movement into this case and dial.
Click to expand...

As a 214 Accutron is a back-set, don't suppose that mod' is possible is it ?

Dave


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## rdwiow

Stanford said:


> You have my utmost admiration, I wouldn't have a clue where to start, or a steady enough hand.
> 
> Good luck and I look forward to the next installment :yes:


Lovely old vintage until it goes wrong, i am having trouble getting parts for my Omega 1301, good luck with your repair.

Rob


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## rdwiow

Stanford said:


> You have my utmost admiration, I wouldn't have a clue where to start, or a steady enough hand.
> 
> Good luck and I look forward to the next installment :yes:


Have you tried accutrons.com in the states, i think he has a Longines he is breaking for parts as i wanted a circuit for an Omega 1301 and he sent me a picture of the Longines movement thinking it was the same, which it wasnt.

Rob


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## seemore

I am guessing that Longines Bulova and most of the quartz watch industry dont make their own coils but sourced them in from some one it might just be worth an email to ask them who that some one might be.


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## Silver Hawk

I just won one this afternoon   now the wait begins.... :sadwalk:


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## jasonm

:rltb:

Well done Paul!

A working one?

Give us a link


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## Silver Hawk

jasonm said:


> :rltb:
> 
> Well done Paul!
> 
> A working one?
> 
> Give us a link


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...em=330279117527

Negotiated to end auction early


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## jasonm

Well done!

But....

Doesnt this leave you with a dilema?

Use this to fix the broken one then weep like a baby when you have to send this ultra rare watch off to its owner,or keep this one for your collection? :huh:


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## Silver Hawk

jasonm said:


> But....
> 
> Doesnt this leave you with a dilema?
> 
> Use this to fix the broken one then weep like a baby when you have to send this ultra rare watch off to its owner,or keep this one for your collection? :huh:


Not really...I have now got my own Ultra-Quartz  . The busted one will go back to its owner....or will it? He has said I can have it ...if we can do a deal / swop etc for something. He's currently thinking about an Accutron.


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## mike_the_man

Not sure if this would be of any use, but have you looked at a product called Stabilant 22A? It's a contact cleaner and enhancer. Depending on the break in the coil (I'm guessing it would be very small) some Stabilant might be enough to fix it up. A quick google search should bring up lots of info. I haven't used it personally yet, but I've heard that it works very well. I have no idea if it would do what you need, but it might be worth a try. 

And that really is an amazing watch, and an amazing movement!

Cheers,

Mike


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## Silver Hawk

I want to publicly thank Bertrand (tranber70)...he sent me this link yesterday to the French forum FAM, where there is this guy working on an Ultra-Quartz! :thumbsup:

He seems to have made a little more progress than me  ...his is humming ...and he's posted some great videos of the working movement. You might need your French-to-English translation book to hand before visiting this topic... 

(Mods: delete this link if you feel the need)

http://forumamontres.forumactif.com/forum-...artz-t43202.htm

Bertrand has also emailed the author for me and he's interested in sharing our experiences...so we're going to get in touch with each other...I just hope he speaks English better than I speak French. Once I have his permission, I'll post links to his videos here.

Thanks again Bertrand!


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## johndozier

This is what passion and dedication are all about. Too little of it in today's throw away world. I bow to you both. Dr. Dozier sends with awe and respect.


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## random collector

Silver Hawk said:


> The Longines Ultra-Quartz has finally arrived....not mine sadly, but one that someone wanted me to take a look at...and a watch that I dearly wanted to see in person, since it is like no other.
> 
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> Having handled one, I think it has now become a grail for me...I _must_ own one
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> . It makes no sense: its quartz and I don't really go for quartz, its going to be difficult to find a good one and expensive too... and if it fails, it is highly unlikely that it can ever be repaired. This one has already been back to Longines and it was immediately sent back to the owner with a polite note indicating that they can no longer work on these. I still want one
> 
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> This one doesn't work... but more on that in a minute.
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> Here is what it looks like first:
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> Someone was asking about back setting watches earlier today....well here is another:
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> And finally why I want one....this amazing Cal 6512 movement...the World's First (and only) Cybernetic Watch. It first appeared in 1967 as a prototype and went on sale in 1971.
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> More to follow....


Sliver Hawk are you still looking for a Longines Ultra Quartz 6512 ? I have one that I just listed on ebay and unfortunately they kicked me off because it had the original sea turtle band and apparently they frown upon endangered species materials even if there was no law in 1970. I can email you pics if you are interested.

Cheers Gabe


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## Silver Hawk

random collector said:


> Silver Hawk are you still looking for a Longines Ultra Quartz 6512 ? I have one that I just listed on ebay and unfortunately they kicked me off because it had the original sea turtle band and apparently they frown upon endangered species materials even if there was no law in 1970. I can email you pics if you are interested.
> 
> Cheers Gabe


Always interested in them  ...although have 3 or 4 now. You can email me from my site: click on the "Electric Watches" banner at the top of the page.


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## random collector

Silver Hawk said:


> random collector said:
> 
> 
> 
> Silver Hawk are you still looking for a Longines Ultra Quartz 6512 ? I have one that I just listed on ebay and unfortunately they kicked me off because it had the original sea turtle band and apparently they frown upon endangered species materials even if there was no law in 1970. I can email you pics if you are interested.
> 
> Cheers Gabe
> 
> 
> 
> Always interested in them  ...although have 3 or 4 now. You can email me from my site: click on the "Electric Watches" banner at the top of the page.
Click to expand...

Hello the watch is re listed on ebay as Longines Ultra quartz.


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## Silver Hawk

random collector said:


> Silver Hawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> random collector said:
> 
> 
> 
> Silver Hawk are you still looking for a Longines Ultra Quartz 6512 ? I have one that I just listed on ebay and unfortunately they kicked me off because it had the original sea turtle band and apparently they frown upon endangered species materials even if there was no law in 1970. I can email you pics if you are interested.
> 
> Cheers Gabe
> 
> 
> 
> Always interested in them  ...although have 3 or 4 now. You can email me from my site: click on the "Electric Watches" banner at the top of the page.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hello the watch is re listed on ebay as Longines Ultra quartz.
Click to expand...

And using my movement photo in the auction without permission :thumbsdown:


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## UltraQuartz

HI EVERYONE!

I own a Longines Ultraquartz which is running, but gains time. I sent it to Longines Switzerland to get it repaired, but they sent it back saying they couldnt fix it. Does anyone have a clue of what to do? I want to get it fixed and be able to wear it, as it is a very special watch for me...

Any help?? :dntknw: :down:

Thank you very much!


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## dickstar1977

I think there are a few guys on here who could have a look, possibly KeithT or Silverhawk, I guess if it is running then it can't be a bad thing?

Good luck with the repair

Cheers Tom


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## FuriousPig

UltraQuartz said:


> HI EVERYONE!
> 
> I own a Longines Ultraquartz which is running, but gains time. I sent it to Longines Switzerland to get it repaired, but they sent it back saying they couldnt fix it. Does anyone have a clue of what to do? I want to get it fixed and be able to wear it, as it is a very special watch for me...
> 
> Any help?? :dntknw: :down:
> 
> Thank you very much!


Seems like Paul (SilverHawk) would be your man; looks like he is going to know these things back to front before this is over. His website is in his signature & you can contact him direct from there.

Good luck with the project Paul, looks like a fascinating movement although I confess I'm not that struck by the overall look. Just as well, looks like an expensive watch.

Just looked at the Tech Bulletin & I have to say that the tag line 'The Worlds First Cybernetic Watch' is very cool.


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