# Recent Additions



## Shiner

This is Waltham Model 1883 ' Canadian Pacific Railway' that dates to 1902.


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## Shiner

The Canadian 24 hour dial.


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## Shiner

A Waltham 1892 Model 'Canadian Pacific Railway' that dates to 1915.


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## Shiner

The Canadian 24 hour dial.


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## mel

LOVE the CPR shield engraved on the watch - - from the days when companies had pride, when was that ever going to be seen except by a watchmaker who would possibly, (only possibly) be working on the piece at sometime? 

It's not ven subliminal advertising, it's maybe sub-subliminal - - a watchie thinking this is a nice piece, look at the workmanship and subconsciously starting to recommend Waltham as a result! :notworthy: The general engravure is just so absolutely beautiful! NO, it's not functional, it's inside the watch, but I could sit and look at that for ages :yes: The balance wheel itself is a work of art, the pointer on the regulator - - - *STOP,* Mel, you'll use up the bandwidth for the day! :rofl2:

Thanks for showing and telling - - - Gorgeous!


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## Will Fly

I'm green with envy! :taz:


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## dobra

You have said it all Mel. Look super in my waistcoat pocket????

Mike


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## Shiner

This is a fairly scarce watch. It is by The Keystone Standard Watch Company,( not to be confused with The Keystone Watch Case Company). This company was formed by Abraham Bitner when he bought about three quarters of the stockholders shares for 10 cents on the dollar of The Lancaster Watch Company when it went into liquidation in 1886. The company Bitner formed assumed the name of Keystone Standard Watch Company. This company lasted just five years before it too went into liquidation and the business was sold in 1891 to another new company, that became the famous Hamilton Watch Company.

During the five years the Keystone Standard Watch Company were in operation it is estimated that they produced only 48,000 watches in various sizes and models.

This hunter cased watch is an 18 size, 15 jewelled, adjusted, 'Dustproof' grade. To make the movement completely dustproof, a cover was placed over the balance that contained a small silica window. The watch dates to about 1888. It retains the original dial, hands and Metropolitan Watch Case Company gold filled hunter case, which are mostly seen on Keystone watches and the previous company Lancaster watches.

At the time they advertised that they were the only watch factory using only genuine ruby jewels in every grade.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Will Fly

Wonderful!


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## bowie

very very nice


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## Shiner

This is an 18 size hunter cased watch by the Springfield Watch Company. This company was formed in 1869 and the first movements were produced in 1872. This movement is a 'Stuart' grade, which was the first and highest quality they made in the early years of production. The 'Bunn' grade was the second highest. It is a Model 1, with the serial number 2548 and is from the first year of production(1872). It was a key wind and set movement with 15 jewels, which was regarded as fully jewelled at that time. This would have been an expensive watch, and a few years after purchasing the watch the owner decided to have it converted from key wind and set to pendant wind and lever set using the new Abbott patented conversion. Quite a number of high quality watches were converted rather than the owners going to the expense of buying another high grade watch to keep up with modern trends. The watch still retains the original 'Springfield' dial which was only used for just over the first year of production. This was the 148th 'Stuart' produced. When the watch was converted it had to be re-cased into a pendant set case. This is a correct period Dueber box hinged gold filled hunter case. The Springfield Watch Company eventually became the Illinois Watch Company.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Shiner

The 'Stuart' grade was named after John Todd Stuart who was the first president of the company. He was a former Congressman and early law partner of Abraham Lincoln.


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## Analogue

That is a cracker ...lovely hands and dial.....great find :yes:


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## Shiner

These are two Waltham 18 size Model 1892 'Royal' Grade with two tone movements. They both date to 1898 with 17 jewels in gold settings, bi-metallic balance with gold balance screws, and micrometric star regulators. One is housed in a very early 18 size Dennison top of the range 'Sun' gold filled case. The other one is in a Crescent Watch Case Company coin silver swing ring case with a Pioneer nickel silver insert.


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## Shiner




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## Analogue

They are both lovely things and would grace any collection.


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## Shiner

New arrival this week.

In 1893 Waltham promoted the Model '83 Non-Magnetic Grade No.40 for Railroad use. This Grade was available in Nickel or Gilt finish. The Nickel being the more expensive of the two. It was also available open or hunter form.

If you look closely, you will see the 'Non Magnetic' inscription on the movement, and the white metal hairspring and balance wheel.


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## Shiner




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## Will Fly

More lovely stuff to drool over - that movement is scrumptious!


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## Shiner

Glad you like it Will. I know you are keen of Hamilton watches, so here is one I'm sure you'll find interesting. I bought this a few days ago. Its a Hamilton 950 Grade. 16 size Railroad Approved with 23 jewels and motor barrel, with gold train wheels and white gold flashed plates, and a Montgomery dial.


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## Shiner




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## Will Fly

That's a beaut as well. I have couple of 992Bs and a 992, but the 950 looks even greater. Thanks for all the superb photographs and the information.


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## bowie

Great pictures of your super looking watches


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## Shiner

Thanks Bowie. They are a few of the watches that I've managed to add to my collection over the last few weeks.


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## Shiner

Another new arrival is this Railroad Approved 18 size Hamilton Grade 942 that dates to 1909.


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## bowie

I like the fancy writing on the movement great picture again Shiner


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## Omega100

Stunning watches. These pictures are making me want to collect them!!


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## Shiner

This is a Waltham full hunter pendant watch and dates to 1895. It's an 1890 Model, 'Seaside' Grade, 15 jewel movement in a scarce duel tone finish, and housed in a 14K solid gold case.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Will Fly

An amazing contrast between the elegance and simplicity of the dial and the lush ornateness of the case - excellent, and thanks again!


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## Shiner

Quite a few of these pendant watches are to be found in superb solid gold cases, but they usually have very basic 7 jewel gilt movements. More for show than go, so it's nice to find one with a really nice quality movement.


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## bowie

Is it harder to keep them clean when there is so much ornateness on the outer case.how do you keep them clean


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## Shiner

These smaller ornate solid gold cases usually have had very little use. The one above is 120 years old and shows no sign of wear, and gold of course doesn't tarnish. They were usually used primarily as a jewellery item and probably spent most of their life in a velvet bag in a jewellery box.


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## Shiner

Going from one extreme to the other. This Waltham 18 size in a huge 5 ounce Sterling silver hunter case arrived this week. A Model 1877 that dates to 1883 is an Appleton Tracy Grade with 15 jewels, which was considered fully jewelled back then.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Shiner

This arrived this week with a couple of others. It's a high grade Waltham Model 1874, 'American' Grade that dates to 1884. It is a 14 size hunter movement with 16 jewels in gold settings, adjusted to temperature and position, with a long tailed tadpole regulator. It's housed in a Crescent Watch Case Company gold filled hunter case that has two personal family inscriptions, one for 1886 and another for 1915.

The watch is very unusual in that it has a paper 'after noon' hours paper dial fitted to the original ceramic dial. This was introduced in 1886 by the Canadian Pacific Railway and is the first 24 hour 'Canadian Dial', which was issued to all their workers and to encourage it's adoption it was also made available to members of the public. These paper dials were made available in 1886 as a short time measure until ceramic 24 hour dials could be produced. Because they were made of paper and are now over 125 old very few now exist. I have only seen one other.


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## Shiner

The movement.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Will Fly

Well, I've never seen that before - fascinating. And a lovely movement as well.


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## Peacefrog

Shiner said:


> A Waltham 1892 Model 'Canadian Pacific Railway' that dates to 1915.


Wow....the doctor has been called for, think I have envy-itish.


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## Cleisthenes

There are some absolutely stunning pieces in this thread. I'd love a pocket watch, but it isn't exactly on the 'need' list right now!


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## Shiner

This arrived a couple of days ago. It's a Waltham 23 jewel Vanguard and dates to 1911. The case is interesting because it's two tone. The main body of the case is gold filled, but the pendant, front and rear covers are in Sterling silver and all the parts have the matching serial numbers and is by the Philadelphia Watch Case Company. The rear cover is decorated with yellow, green and rose gold.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Will Fly

Beautiful case - and the usual superb Vanguard movement.

Dare I ask where you source your watches from - or is that too personal a question? I'd love to build up my collection a little more, but the cash just isn't there are the moment! :wallbash:


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## Shiner

Hi Will,

I like to combine my two hobbies of camping/touring and American pocket watch collecting so I get the chance of attending a great many auction houses and salerooms on my travels. I always seem to manage to be in some part of the country on a sale day. This gives me the opportunity to handle and inspect a watch before buying. I do buy a few on the internet, but only from people I have dealt with over a number of years. Although I only collect American pocket watches(Mainly Waltham railroad grade) I have never bought one from America. All my watches are sourced from within the UK. Obviously there are far fewer in this country, but that makes it more gratifying when I do find a good quality timepiece.


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## Will Fly

Seeing the watches in the flesh is always an advantage - particularly for auctions. Fellows Auctions excepted, there's usually very little decent description of watches from online auction sites - in that respect, eBay can be better - and asking for condition reports gets a very mixed response.

I have my favourite sellers on eBay, and they're usually reliable. I've noticed recently that some good RR watches (Elgin Father Time, Elgin B.W. Raymond, Hamilton 992) have been sold for much less than I would have thought. Perhaps there's a dip in the market at the moment... I've been tempted, but I have a few watches of these grades already. What I'm really after is a Waltham Vanguard with a wind indicator - but these seem to as rare as hen's teeth in this country.

If I want to buy from the US, I have a good friend over there - also a pocket watch enthusiast - who would get what I wanted to buy and then send it to me so as to avoid Customs duty.


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## Shiner

Will,

I have just the three Vanguard Wind Indicators.


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## Shiner




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## Melville

Shiner,

You certainly appear to have a great collection, especially Walthams, but do you have a favourite Waltham in your collection? From those you have shown in this topic, I would love to own the 1892 Model 'Canadian Pacific Railway'.


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## Shiner

I think there are two Waltham watches I wear the most, so I suppose they are my favourites. The first one is an open face Riverside Maximus in a 14k solid gold case that dates to 1908 and the second one is a hunter cased Riverside Maximus in an 18K solid gold case that dates to 1903. Both are higher grade than railroad approved watches.


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## Shiner




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## Will Fly

If I had three Vanguards with wind indicators, I'd be in hog heaven! What lovely watches.


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## Mechanical Alarm

Amazing and it seems you have the knowledge to go along with them. I'm a Yank and you have more than I do. Great to see such a nice collection.

Shiner, please do a "Family Shot" with them all together.


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## Shiner

Meet the 'Walthams', well some of them.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Shiner

The Studebaker name was world famous for it's production of high quality cars and trucks. The company was founded in 1852 and remained in business until 1966. In 1902 three members of the Studebaker family bought the Columbus Watch Company which at the time was in financial difficulties, and moved the company from Ohio to Indiana. They built a brand new hi-tec factory and founded the South Bend Watch Company.

They produced a wide range of movements, the first being 6 size, and the serial numbers started at 380501 which was a continuation of the Columbus serial numbers. At this time the Studebaker name was associated with high quality and dependability so it made sense to produce a watch with the name 'The Studebaker'. It was the best known and most popular South Bend watch made. It was produced in three 18 size and two 16 size grades, and all were accepted for Railroad Time Service.

There can be a lot of confusion these days regarding 'The Studebaker' grades because in the early 1920s some re-organisation took place in the company and in 1923 they established The Studebaker Watch Company to sell mail order pocket watches and other various goods to the public. These watches were marked 'Studebaker' and 'South Bend Watch Company' and were sold at a much cheaper price. These watches whilst being good quality were not in the same league as their very high grade railroad watches marked 'The Studebaker'.

Today's collectors should be aware of the differences in the marking between these watches. The mail order 'Studebaker' was produced between 1923 and 1929 and sold to the public with a printed metal dial with movements with seven digit serial numbers and all beginning with a '1' and were all pendant set.

Genuine 'The Studebaker' movements were all lever set and are marked 'The Studebaker' in script and the serial number will only have six digits and a dial marked 'South Bend', whereas the mail order movement is marked 'Studebaker' in block letters with the omission of 'The'

The company collapsed at the beginning of the Great Depression in 1929 when the banks called in their loans and the many thousands of mail order customers could no longer afford to send in their monthly repayments.

I have just acquired this genuine 16 size 'The Studebaker' that dates to 1909. It is a grade 229 with 21 jewels, adjusted to temperature and 5 positions, with a double roller balance and micrometric regulator. Double sunk ceramic South Bend dial and blued steel hands. Cased in a Star Case Watch Company 25 year gold filled case.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## neiln

Wow! Every watch is stunning.

If you don't mind me asking, what sort of cost range are the watches you've shown us in this thread? High hundreds? more?


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## Shiner

This one has just arrived. It's a Waltham 18 size 1892 Model '845' Grade. Open face with 21 jewels, double roller balance staff and gold balance and timing screws to the bi-metallic balance wheel. It's adjusted to temperature and 5 positions, and also has the micrometric Ohlson regulator, and dates to 1911. All 845s were accepted for Railroad Service. This movement is housed in a substantial silveroid case as were a lot of these railroad watches as they had a hard working life.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Shiner

Two new arrivals this week. Both are by Waltham, both are Model 1892 and both are Appleton Tracy & Co. Grade, but they are not identical. During the lifetime of the Model 1892, Waltham made many different grades such as Vanguard, Crescent Street, Appleton Tracy, Riverside, 845, Canadian Pacific Railway etc.,

The Appleton Tracy & Co. grade of the 1892 Model was made in eight different versions over the years. The differences in the versions are not great, but they are there and they do help to confirm if a movement is completely original or has had some alteration.

These two movements are a version 2 from 1895 and a version 5 from 1903.

The version 2 has the serial number next to the upper edge of the balance bridge. The balance bridge is held in place by two screws and the winding wheels have a brightly polished finish and the screws have a gold finish.

The version 5 has the serial number on the barrel bridge and three screws now hold down the barrel bridge, and the winding wheels now have a brushed finish and the screws have a silver finish. The 'safety barrel' inscription has now been removed and the orientation of the screws holding down the balance jewels has changed. The regulator arm has changed from gold to silver and the regulator 'star' has changed from silver to gold, but the biggest and most important difference is that the version 5 is inscribed 'Premier' on the barrel bridge.

This indicates that the movement is adjusted to 5 positions whereas all previous Appleton Tracy grades were adjusted to 3 positions. The upgrade to 5 positions was to conform to the new railroad standards that required watches to be adjusted to 5 positions. A little later the railroad standards stated that all railroad approved watches were to be marked '5 positions'.


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## Shiner

Version 2


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## Shiner

Version 5


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## Will Fly

The work on these watches is outstanding. Absolutely stunning - thanks for keeping us up to date and informed about these beautiful timepieces. It's greatly appreciated.


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## bowie

have to agree with will fly,the inside's are beautiful


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## Shiner

I mentioned that a little later the railroad standard required that railroad grade movements had to be marked '5 movements', and if you refer back to the previous watch. the '845' grade which is another 1892 Model grade you can see that it is was made in 1911 and carries the '5 movements' marking. It also has two other upgrades with the Ohlson regulator replacing the 'star' regulator, and the case screws have been repositioned.


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## neiln

Utterly gorgeous. I swear... With movements like those I would never look at the dial....I'd learn to tell the time from what I could see in the movement!


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## Shiner

This is another addition this week. It's a Waltham 16 size 1908 Model 23 jewel Vanguard hunter movement that dates to 1919. Only 5,300 hunters were made compared to 132,650 open faced movements. Housed in a Dennison 18 carat solid gold demi-hunter case and retailed through the Goldsmiths and Silversmiths Co. Ltd., of 112 Regent Street, London W.1.


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## Shiner

The dial.


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## Shiner

The 23J Vanguard movement.


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## neiln

Another!?  How many is that so far this year? In fact, how extensive is your collection! I'm jealous :lol: . It's another wonderful watch and as always the photos and information you share with us are fabulous, thank you.


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## Shiner

This one arrived yesterday. It's another Waltham 1892 Model, but this is a different grade in the model range. It's a P.S. Bartlett that dates to 1907. All the P.S.B's in this model were two tone with 17 jewels. This one is cased in what is the best 'Banner' gold-filled case I have seen. It shows no sign of wear except for a few very light marks on the blank cartouche on the rear cover. The movement and dial are also in exceptional condition for a watch that is 107 years old.


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## bowie

Beautiful, do you ever sell any? :thumbup:


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## Shiner

Rarely, although I have decided to concentrate solely on certain Waltham models. So at the moment I have half a dozen really nice Hamiltons ticking away and lined up on the mantelpiece waiting for me to make a decision. I'll probably end up putting them back in a cabinet.


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## Will Fly

Shiner said:


> ...at the moment I have half a dozen really nice Hamiltons ticking away and lined up on the mantelpiece waiting for me to make a decision. I'll probably end up putting them back in a cabinet.


Let me know if you don't! :yahoo:


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## Shiner

I rarely buy English or European pocket watches as I concentrate solely on American pocket watches, mainly Railroad Approved, but this week I bought this 18K gold cased English watch mainly because of the inscription.

It was presented, along with a purse of gold to David Crossley in recognition of services rendered as the Honorary Secretary of the Farnworth and Kersley Relief Committee during the Cotton Famine of 1863,4 and 5.

The cotton famine was a bi-product of the American Civil War when the export of raw cotton from the Southern States of America practically ceased. Eighty percent of raw cotton came from the USA. This caused huge problems for the Lancashire cotton mill towns during these years, throwing tens of thousands out of work and bringing many cotton mills to a standstill.

In an attempt to help the jobless cotton workers, each town formed it's own Relief Committee to collect donations from those still in work in the local coal mines and paper mills etc., These funds were then distributed amongst those most in need.

As the American Civil War drew to a close, raw cotton once again began to arrive at the Liverpool Docks and the cotton towns of Lancashire went back to work.

The 18K case has the hall marks for Chester 1863/4. The watch is a centre seconds fusee movement inscribed Henry Whittington 29 King Street, Manchester.


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## Shiner

The movement.


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## Shiner

The dial needs a new seconds hand.


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## Shiner

A little background on David Crossley.


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## Roger the Dodger

Superb hand engraving.....the engraver certainly wanted to showcase his talents with this one, combining several different styles of 'font' (as we would call them today). Not only is he showing his prowess in the execution of these styles, (upper case, lower case, both upright and leaning to the right, italics, script, Old English etc) but also the fact that he could do them curved (top line), wavy (third line) and straight (majority). A very skilled piece of work, which I imagine took a while to do. Unless my eyes are playing up, there's even two different styles of 'font' in the top curved line.....'Purse of Gold ' seems to be slightly bigger to me....?


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## Shiner

Rog, This is a slightly clearer picture of the engraving. He certainly made full use of the available space.


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## Roger the Dodger

Thanks for that second shot, Shiner...just superb!....I see it was a trick of the light that made the top line appear differently in the original pic.


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## bowie

super looking watches


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## Shiner

Another recent arrival is this Waltham 1883 Model, 17 jewel open faced, lever set, 'Special' Grade. The serial number dates it to 1900 and is from a run of 1000 movements. It seems that this run of 1000 was for the Canadian Pacific Railway but they only purchased part of the run so the remainder were finished as Appleton Tracy.

All the movements in this run are listed as Lever Set Open Faced. Only 5 runs of the Special Grade 17 jewelled Open Face/Lever Set 1883 Model were produced with a total of just 2400.

The watch has 17 jewels in gold settings, compensating bi-metallic balance wheel with gold balance screws, micrometric 'Star' regulator and adjusted to temperature and position. It is built to railroad standards and would have been accepted for railroad service.


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## Shiner

The beautifully damaskeened movement.


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## Shiner

With the benefit of a display case.


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## Will Fly

You're going to have to stop doing this - I'm salivating at these movements. (No - don't stop...)!


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## bowie

Will Fly said:


> You're going to have to stop doing this - I'm salivating at these movements. (No - don't stop...)!


no don't stop can you recommend a book about these type of watches please.


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## Shiner

I concentrate almost entirely on American pocket watches and have about thirty books on the subject but there are many more than that out there.

I suppose the best general reference book I have on the subject of American pocket watches is 'The Time Museum Historical Catalogue of American Pocket Watches' by Donald Robert Hoke.

Another good reference book that covers American, English and Swiss pocket watches is 'Pocket Watches of the 19th and 20th Century' by Alan Shenton.


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## neiln

wow, again! I shan't tire of looking at these wonderful watches, and have started to eagerly await each update and new addition!


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## bowie

Shiner said:


> I concentrate almost entirely on American pocket watches and have about thirty books on the subject but there are many more than that out there.
> 
> I suppose the best general reference book I have on the subject of American pocket watches is 'The Time Museum Historical Catalogue of American Pocket Watches' by Donald Robert Hoke.
> 
> Another good reference book that covers American, English and Swiss pocket watches is 'Pocket Watches of the 19th and 20th Century' by Alan Shenton.


thanks for that, I also like your post's of your watches


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## Shiner

This is a follow up to the gold watch awarded to David Crossley in 1865.

I went to Farnworth and found David Crossley's house in Bridge Street. It is in a state of very good repair and there is a plaque built into the front of the house which displays his initials and the date of 1892, and was where he died in 1900.


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## Shiner

I then made the short trip to the museum at Bolton and found the original pamphlet regarding the presentation of the watch, and was allowed to take three photos. One of the the front of the pamphlet, a second one of the open page and a third of page 10 which refers to the actual presentation of the watch.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Shiner

A new arrival this week is a 16 size Waltham 1908 Model, Crescent Street Grade hunter movement. With 21 jewels in raised gold settings, adjusted to temperature and 5 positions, a double roller balance staff and Ohlsson micrometric regulator.

This would have been shipped to the UK as a movement only and then housed in a Dennison gold filled demi-hunter case with the standard English single sunk enamel dial.

The serial number dates the movement to 1913/14. Only 5,900 hunter style 1908 Model 21 jewel Crescent Street movements compared to 80,300 open faced movements.


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## Shiner




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## Analogue

Shiner said:


>


I have a quartz one that looks remarkably like that one..I wonder if they copied it.


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## Will Fly

That style of demi-hunter or half-hunter casing - with some variations in the numeral design and colouring - is very similar from make to make.


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## Shiner

I acquired this a few days ago. It is a very early Waltham key wind and set 18 size 1857 Model, P.S. Bartlett Grade with 11 jewels, adjusted to 3 positions and with a plain steel balance with undersprung hairspring. Very soon after this all Walthams became oversprung. The serial number is 199334 and dates the watch to the 1st week of February 1866.


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## Shiner

This clearly shows the undersprung hairspring and regulator arm.


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## neiln

Thanks Shiner, I look forward to seeing each new addition and the details you describe for us :clap:


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## Shiner

I picked this one up a few days ago. It's a Hamilton 992 with 21 jewels in gold settings, adjusted to temperature and 5 positions, swan neck micrometric regulator and a double roller balance staff. With a very nice Canadian style double sunk 24 hour dial. I bought it mainly because it is housed in a rarely seen 14K white gold filled Hamilton Number 3 Railroad Case.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Will Fly

That's a beaut. 992s and 992Bs are my favourite American pocket watches. Here's one my of 992Bs:


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## neiln

This is my favourite thread on this site, such beautiful watches.


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## dobra

Like these a lot. Don't own any, mainly because I know the square root of b*gger all about them, hence nervousness to buy one.... 

Mike


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## Will Fly

dobra said:


> Like these a lot. Don't own any, mainly because I know the square root of b*gger all about them, hence nervousness to buy one....
> 
> Mike


Don't be nervous. The same qualities that make a good wristwatch make a good pocket watch. Dial, casing, movement, condition, rarity, etc. I'm very fond of quality American makes like Hamilton, Illinois, Waltham and Elgin, etc. If you were interested in going for one, there are people on this forum - particularly Shiner - who's knowledge would be invaluable. As far as Hamiltons are concerned (US, not Swiss), my problem is finding good ones in the UK. Lots in America if you're prepared to pay customs duty and postage - and they're still a bargain.


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## dobra

Thanks Will !

Over here on the Isle of Wight, pocket watches seem like hens teeth. Seen a few bog-standard "silver" ones, but some not worth spending money on for servicing etc.


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## bowie

Great looking watches will and shiner as always I am green with envy.


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## Shiner

I bought this one a couple of weeks ago. It's a Railroad Approved 18 size Elgin 23 jewel Father Time. It is a grade 252. This grade was produced from 1899 to 1904 and 19,000 were made. The serial number dates this watch to the first year of 1899, and was the 381st produced. With the correct period dial and hands and in a gold filled display backed case.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner

Display back.


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## Shiner




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## Will Fly

I love the Father Time watches. Mine dates from 1917 - Grade 388.


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## neiln

Yay, another stunning piece! Best thread on the website, best descriptions, best photos, best time pieces. With so many, do you have favourites? Do they stay the same or do you fall in love with your latest every time a new one is found?


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## Shiner

Neil,

The latest find is always my favourite!......... for about a fortnight, then a new favourite appears.

But seriously, I do have a few long term favourites. Some are high grade, whilst others are pretty basic models. Some cost a lot, and one or two just a few pounds.


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## Always"watching"

This thread has just had me entranced all along, with watches I adore, even though I am not a pocket watch collector. I know Will Fly, and if he is busting a gut over some of those wonderful watches, then they must be pretty damned good.

Many thanks to to you for showing these watches and keeping us all on the edge of our seats waiting for next visual treat.


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## Shiner

I picked this one up recently. I usually concentrate on railroad quality watches, but this one has a decent movement, a nice crisp hunter case and a very nice retailer named fancy dial.

The watch is a 16 size Elgin Model 6, 241 Grade. There were 62,900 made in a total of 48 runs between 1899 and 1906. This watch was in the 1st run of 900 and was the 756th produced.

So the serial number dates the watch to 1899. It is hunter cased 3 finger bridge movement with 17 jewels, micrometric regulator and adjusted to temperature and 3 positions.

The case shows no signs of wear and the dial is also in exceptional condition. Looks like it spent a lot of it's life in a sock draw.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Shiner

This is the latest addition, and is a Hampden pocket watch. The serial number dates the watch to 1890. It is an open faced 18 size Model 3, Dueber Grade, with 15 jewels, a Teske patent regulator and lever setting. It has the original Dueber double sunk enamel dial and is housed in the original Dueber 'Special' 25 year 14K gold -filled case. This was Dueber's highest grade gold filled case.

In 1864 John C. Dueber founded the Dueber Watch Case Company in Cininnati, Ohio to manufacture cases for fine watches. Twenty two years later in 1886 Dueber, who was making cases for the Hampden Watch Company visited the factory and was so impressed that he bought a controlling interest in the company.

At about that time an anti-trust law was passed and the watch and watch case manufacturers formed a boycott against Dueber. In order to remain in business, Dueber bought the Hampden Watch Company whose factory was in Springfield, Massachusetts and moved both companies to a duel set of factory buildings in Canton, Ohio. The factories were run as two separate entities.

By 1890 the company was producing quality watches,(this watch is an early product of the Canton Factory) and introduced the first 16 size 23 jewel movement in America.

In 1923 the the Dueber Watch Case Company and the Hampden Watch Company were legally merged to become the Dueber-Hampden Watch Company.

In 1925 John Dueber sold the company to Walter Vrettman.

In 1927, due to falling sales the company went into receivership.

In 1928, Russia's only watch factory was using old stocks of parts that they purchased from abroad.

In 1930 Amtorg Trading Corporation of Russia purchased the Dueber-Hampden Watch Company together with all the manufacturing equipment, in order to build a factory in Russia. All the machinery left Canton, Ohio together with 21 Dueber-Hampden employees contracted for 12 months to teach the Russians the craft of watchmaking.

In 1931 The First State Watch Factory began to produce pocket watches.


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## dobra

Superb and very nice looking - well done Shiner. Similar story with Ansona clocks who went from the USA to Russia.....

Mike


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## Shiner

This item is from the 'Watchmaker and Jeweler' magazine of 4th December, 1870 and refers to the latest improvements introduced by the National Watch Company of Illinois, which was later to become the Elgin Watch Company. The last section refers to their latest Patent Dust Excluder which completely enclosed the movement.

The barrel bridge is so constructed as to lap over the edge of the upper, and come down snug upon the lower plate, thus covering the barrel. Slight grooves are cut in the plates, and thin slips of brass inserted upon each side of the barrel fitting into the grooves and meeting in the centre, making a perfectly tight rim round the works.

I bought this 1883 Elgin B.W. Raymond Grade a few days ago because after removing the movement from the case I discovered that the dust covers were still in place, which is very unusual on a 130 years old movement. So many were never replaced when the watch went in for cleaning or repair at some time in the past.

The movement wasn't working and was in a very dirty condition, but the balance seemed okay. After dismantling and cleaning and oiling it the watch now works very well and is a super timekeeper. With the original dial and hands and a decent case it was well worth the ten pounds paid.


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## Shiner




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## Will Fly

Excellent!


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## Shiner

In those early days Elgin advised that a watch should be serviced every 2 years, but the use of this patent dust excluder would enable the movement to remain in good order without cleaning for double that length of time.

So perhaps it's no great surprise that so many dust excluders and dust rings seemed to go missing after a service.


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## Shiner

I've just bought my first American/Swiss pocket watch. The ebauches were made in Switzerland, shipped to the US where they were finished, fitted with dials, hands and cased.

It is a Gruen Very Very Thin Model. The watch has a Very Thin movement with 19 jewels, adjusted to temperature and 6 positions and a micrometric regulator.

To create a Very Very Thin Model the Very Thin movement was placed in a newly designed Very Very Thin case to make the watch look even thinner.

The Gruen Very Thin watches were to prove very popular and became Gruen's signature watch. Prices for the movements started at $50 USD(which would be roughly $1250 USD today. Putting the movement into a solid gold case could increase the original cost to several hundred dollars.


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## Will Fly

That's the first Gruen pocket watch I've seen up close and in earnest - very nice, as well as very thin!

I first came across the name when I started buying their Precision Curvex wrist watches - the first of their kind to be curved to the wrist. The movement on these watches is quite cunningly designed. The gear train is arranged to give a slight curve to the movement, then the whole movement fits into a very curved case - and the whole effect of curvature is enhanced by the high domed - and curved crystal. Great innovators!


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## Shiner

This is the Gruen very very thin in comparison to a standard 16 size watch.


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## Will Fly

Fascinating. Gruen certainly brought the art of thin movements to a high pitch. That's a very nice case and dial.


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## Tomjoy

Can anyone give me any information on this watch please,it belonged to my late father-in-law and my wife had never seen it before we cleared his belongings when he passed away.It is steel and is Swiss made with a seperate second clock on the bottom of the face,the back has the lettering as follows stamped into it I have photographed it but cannot find a link to put it on here,it seems I posted my original request on the wrong thread,hopefully this is the right one !	AM 60/50 2515 /42

I was advised to put a photo on but can't find a link on the reply page to put one on,how do I do this please.


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## Melville

I think you have posted this request on the wrong thread. You are on the correct part of the forum, all you need to do is to click on 'OPEN A NEW TOPIC' at the top of the page and request information regarding your pocket watch. This should then get the attention you need.


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## Shiner

Picked this one up a few days ago. It was the Illinois Watch Company's answer to the Gruen Very Thin watches.

The serial number dates the watch to 1920. It's a 12 size, open face Grade 439, Bridge Plate, Extra Thin Model, adjusted with 21 jewels and motor barrel. Quite a rare model with only 300 made.


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## Shiner

This is the latest addition. It's a Waltham 12 size 1894 American Bridge Model. The serial number dates the watch to 1898. It is a 21 jewel movement, the jewels all set in gold mounts, adjusted to 5 positions, with a complete gold train, 4 diamond end stones and a micrometric regulator. Mounted in a very smart blued steel and gold case.

The American Bridge Model is the highest 12 size Waltham, higher even than the Riverside Maximus.


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## thistle1314

That's a nice looking watch, I like the colour of the case with the gold, thanks for putting it up.


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## Shiner

I picked this one up locally today (about a mile from my front door). It's an absolutely superb 16 size Waltham 1899 Model hunter casedRiverside Maximus Grade that dates to 1903. With 23 jewels in solid gold settings including 4 diamond endstones, solid gold train wheels, adjusted to temperature and 5 positions, micrometric whip regulator and fantastic damaskeening to the nickel plates. The dial is the finest condition original Waltham early Script double sunk dial that I have seen. It is absolutely flawless. It will take pride of place alongside my other two.


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## dobra

Fabulous - who's a lucky boy then.

Mike


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## Shiner

Yes, I must agree, I'm delighted to own three of these very fine watches. All three work beautifully and keep superb time. Not bad when you consider that they are all over a hundred years old. The two on the left are hunter cased from circa 1903 and the one on the left is 5 or 6 years later and an open cased watch.


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## Shiner

The two hunter cased movements.


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## Shiner

The open cased movement.


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## Will Fly

All lovely stuff - as usual!


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## bowie

works of art beautiful


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## Shiner

This one arrived the other day. It's quite a rare movement, being one of only 200 1908 Model Riverside Grade with 21 jewels, adjusted to 5 positions and with an Ohlson patent regulator that were made.


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## Shiner

With a very nice English dial and a Dennison gold filled hunter case.


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## Shiner

I'm usually not very keen on cases bearing initials, but these are superbly engraved and not rubbed.


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## Shiner

The summary report of all 1908 Model Riverside Grade.


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## setover

nice watch! :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Melville

Hi Shiner,

That 1908 Model 21 jewel Riverside must be quite a rare watch with only 200 being made. To give us an idea of how scarce it is, do you know how many 1908 Model watches of all grades were made?

I thought I had seen a few 21 jewel Riverside pocket watches, but they didn't have a micrometric regulator or 5 adjustments, so what's the story on those?


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## Shiner

The Waltham Model 1908 was a long lived model and during it's lifetime 2.5 million were made in about 75 different grades. The hunter cased 21 jewel Riverside Grade totalled one run of just two hundred movements, so it is a very scarce watch. It seems to have been a special order because there are no other Riverside Grades hunter cased or open faced with 21 jewels in the Model 1908.

This watch is practically identical to the 19 jewel Riverside grade with the addition of two cap jewels to the escape wheel. The 19 jewel Riverside was of Railroad Grade, and Railroad Approved with open face and lever setting, and was a highly regarded watch, so much so that they were used by the Royal Navy during the First World War. The 23 jewel grade would have been Railroad Grade, but not Approved as it is a hunter movement with pendant setting. It was therefore a watch designed for just two hundred owners who wanted a high quality railroad grade watch with 21 jewels instead of 19 and in a hunter case. Bearing in mind that this was at the time of the Great Depression it would not be surprising if these watches were slow sellers.

The 21 jewel 'Riverside' pocket watches that you have seen without 5 adjustments and a standard regulator are in fact not a Riverside Grade. They are from the 1621 Grade. The 16 being the watch size and the 21 being the number of jewels. They were produced from the late 1930s to the early 1940s and are marked Riverside. By this time the Riverside name had been dramatically downgraded. A total of 77,238 were made, all open faced watches. Many of these watches are only adjusted for temperature and are marked as such and they all have a basic regulator, not a micrometric regulator and as such are not Railroad Grade and were NEVER Railroad Approved contrary to what sellers on Ebay might have you believe. These watches always remind me of the badge engineering that BMC used in the 1960s when they tarted up Morris Oxfords with two tone paintwork and leather interior and called them MGs and Rileys long after these quality motor companies had disappeared from the motoring scene. At the time they were sneered at by the true blue motoring public, but of course they are now 'Classics'.


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## Shiner

A new addition this week-end is an 18 size Railroad Approved Hamilton Model 1, 940 Grade. The serial number dates the watch to 1916 when it went to the finishing department on the 22nd of August.

It has 21 jewels in solid gold mounts, motor barrel, lever set, micrometric regulator, adjusted to temperature and five positions. It has a glass enamel double sunk dial with bold Arabic numerals and red five minute markers and matching blued steel spade hands.

The Hamilton 940 was one of the most popular watches amongst railroad men and a total of 210,596 were made. They were usually housed in inexpensive sturdy cases to withstand what would have been a hard life. This watch is in a Star Watch Case Company nickel screw case.


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## Shiner

Lever set.


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## Will Fly

Lovely! I have several Hamiltons and love them all.


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## Shiner

My main interest is Waltham pocket watches but I too have a few nice Hamiltons. These are my two favourites. An 18 size Hamilton 946 which was their only 23 jewel movement, and a 16 size 950 that was also a 23 jewel movement. Both in superb condition and both with genuine Montgomery dials.


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## Shiner

Both lever set and railroad approved.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner

The 946 with jewelled barrel.


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## Shiner

The 950 movement.


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## Shiner

The latest addition, just for a change is an Elgin. It's a slim 12 size evening wear watch, Model 4, Grade 452 G.M. Wheeler, that dates to circa 1924. With 17 jewels, travelling nut micrometric regulator and six adjustments. This watch was cased in the Elgin Factory and the inner dust cover is marked Elgin B.W. Raymond model. So, a nice original 25 year warranty gold filled case plus original silvered dial and matching hands. With it being so slim it fits very nicely into a waistcoat pocket without appearing bulky. A good quality watch in very nice condition that keeps very good time.


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## Shiner

Original silvered dial and matching hands.


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## Shiner

The inner dust cover signed Elgin B.W. Raymond Model.


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## Shiner

The inside of the rear cover marked with the patent number and date regarding the watch case pendant.


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## Will Fly

Size 12 is quite a nice size, as you say - makes a nice neat watch. Lovely.


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## bowie

I wish you would stop showing these beautiful pocket watches that you have shiner,very green I am


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## Shiner

Ooooops! The rear dust cover is marked G.M. Wheeler not B.W. Raymond. (I'm working on a B.W. Raymond at the moment. These cases were not made by Elgin, they were ordered from the Wadsworth Watch Case Company.


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## Shiner

I found another 12 size Elgin about a week ago. I'm having difficulty finding nice 18 and 16 size railroad approved watches at the moment, someone must be hoarding them. Anyway, this is a 12 size with a difference. It's housed in a Sterling silver case by the Illinois Watch Case Company and opens to make a very nice desk clock. It's a decent 15 jewel movement that dates to the beginning of the 1930's, and is keeping good time. Notice that the watch winds at the 6 o'clock position, and has no seconds dial.


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## Shiner

A typical 1930s octagonal case.


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## Will Fly

Did you miss a pic by mistake? I'm looking forward to seeing this one...


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## Will Fly

Aha - we crossed! I posted too soon! That's charming - very sweet.


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## Shiner

This is the latest arrival. It's by the Hampden Watch Company of Springfield, Massachusetts, and is an 18 size, Model 2, with 15 jewels. The serial number dates the movement to circa 1880. A few years earlier than this saw the hunter cased watches loosing their popularity to the open faced models, as it had no front cover, and had the pendant at the 12 o'clock position which made them easier to read when the watch was hung from a hook or watch stand at night. The only problem with this was that the major watch companies had a large numbers of hunter movements held in stock that they had to sell, so many were sold on in open faced cases with the watch winding in the 3 o'clock position at greatly reduced prices. It is for this reason that it is still possible to find the occasional hunter movement from the late 1870s to early 1880s in the original open faced case. These were genuine 'sidewinders'. After this period the backlog was cleared and from about 1990 all open faced watches would normally have movements that wind at the 12 o'clock position. Later hunter movements in open faced cases would be an indication that they have been re-cased at some time.

This watch appears to be in it's original open faced case. The case is from the same period as the movement and is by J. Boss, and the case marking of a crown over a set of scales was their logo for their 25 year gold filled case which was the highest in their range of such cases at that time. The dial and hands are also original to the movement.

I realise that the open faced watches have the advantage over the hunter cased versions when not being carried, but I find those watches that have the pendant at the 3 o'clock position to be more comfortable in the hand when taken from the waistcoat pocket. It just seems a more natural position to hold the watch.


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## Shiner

Watch winds at the 3 o'clock position.


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## Shiner

Lever set.


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## Shiner

Case makers mark by J.Boss. The F.W.Swan mark is the retailers name.


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## Shiner

I have just re-read my last posting regarding the Hampden watch and noticed a slip of the typing finger regarding the date when the back log of hunter movements were cleared. It should read 1890 not 1990!

Judging from the superb condition of the gilded movement and the beautifully blued screws, this watch has led a very sheltered life, although the case does have some pocket wear.

The watch has been running for a few days now and is keeping time to within a few seconds a day with the regulator in the central position. Not bad for a 134 years old watch and still not requiring a new battery.


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## Will Fly

Interesting that it's lever set and that it's also a hunter. I'm told that there was a vogue for lever set movements in "domestic" watches.


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## Shiner

Will,

Most early American 18 size pendant wound hunter movements were lever set. It was more the norm than a vogue.

I have twelve early 18 size pendant wound watches, and all are lever set.


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## Will Fly

That's very interesting - most (not all) of the lever set watches I've had have been RR grade.

Bit then, I don't collect size 18 watches - and I don't collect hunters either - so my experience has been limited!

Cheers,

Will


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## Shiner

There also were 18 size, open faced, lever set Railroad Approved watches produced.

These are all 18 size Waltham railroad watches made between 1900 and 1910.


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## Melville

Shiner,

Just out of curiosity, with regard to 18 size Walthams, is there any particular model you prefer to collect. From the Model 1857 up to the Model 1892?


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## Shiner

Hi Melville,

I do have various 18 size Walthams, but recently I have decided to concentrate of the 1892 Model.. This originally was named the Vanguard Model, but it proved to be so popular that they introduced other Grades and it became known as the 1892 Model. The first movements came to the market in 1894.

There are quite a few different grades and variations of those grades, so there are quite a few to collect. So far I have these fourteen.


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## Melville

That sounds very ambitious Shiner. Do you know how many different grades and variations of grades of the 1892 Model were produced? Also have you any idea how long the Model was in production, and over what period does your fourteen watches cover?


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## Shiner

Mel,

Yes, I have to agree that it may be too ambitious. I've just been having a look at the list of 1892 grades and there seems to be about 20 grades and over 50 various jewel counts all together. So I have only about a quarter so far. The 1892 was in production from 1894 to about 1917 give a year or two.

The earliest one I have is a 21 jewel hunter cased 'Vanguard', and the latest is 17 jewel 'Canadian Pacific Railway'.


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## Shiner

The Vanguard movement.


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## Shiner

The CPR dial.


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## Shiner

The CPR movement.


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## Shiner

The Vanguard dates to 1895, and the CPR dates to 1915.


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## dobra

Wonderful craftsmanship. Just wonder how sophisticated were their machine tools......

Thanks for some good quality piccies

Mike


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## Shiner

This one arrived a few days ago, and for a change it's not a Waltham. It's a railroad approved Hamilton, and I must admit they are beautiful watches so when I find one I am tempted, even though I say to myself, concentrate on the Walthams.

This is an 18 size open faced Model 1, Grade 940 that dates to late 1904. With 21 ruby jewels in gold screw settings, lever set, adjusted to temperature and isochronism and 5 positions and the traditional Hamilton micrometric regulator. Set in superb damaskeened nickel plates with gilt lettering. Cased in a Bates & Bacon 'Royal' 20 year gold filled case. The Grade 940 is reputed to have been the most popular watch of it's time amongst the railroad workers, and a total of 210,596 were produced. I already have a couple of these 940s, but they are such good watches.


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## Shiner

The double sunk enamel dial.


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## dobra

Phew - looks brand new. Well done Shiner!

Mike


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## Melville

I love the Waltham 1892 model and can see why you would like to have one of each grade. Is there any other Waltham that you are concentrating on?

Mel


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## Shiner

Hi Mel,

Sorry I've not replied to your question sooner but I've been on a little camping tour for the last couple of weeks. With regard to other aspects of my pocket watch collecting I am also concentrating on all Vanguard grades from the 1892, 1899 and 1908 Models.

Talking of the 1892 Model and Vanguard grades I have just acquired what I think is perhaps a unique watch. It certainly sounds like it when I mentioned it to some very serious American collectors.

Normally a watch with a spring loaded front cover is referred to as a hunter watch which always contains a hunter movement that winds at the 3 o'clock position. A demi-hunter is also a hunter movement in a hunter case with a cut out portal in the front cover that is engraved numerically with the number 3 in line with the winding pendant. So the watch can be read without opening the front cover, but the cover still gives protection to the crystal and dial.

This pocket watch is totally different, and something I have never seen before.

It is a 14K solid gold case by the Dubois Watch Case Company who were makers of hand made cases. It has a "Demi" front cover numerically engraved and glass enamel filled in pale blue for an OPEN FACED Waltham Model 1892 Vanguard Grade, namely with the winding pendant at the 12 o'clock position. The feeling is that this was a 'one off' commission by someone with a lot of money who REALLY wanted it to be made this unique way, and I must say it is still in extraordinary condition. It now takes pride of place in my '1892' collection.


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## Shiner

The dial is perfect.


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## Shiner

The 23 jewelled Vanguard movement.


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## Shiner

I forgot to mention that the watch dates to 1902.


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## Melville

Shiner that is a fabulous watch. I also have never seen an open face 1892 Grade in a Demi Case. I've never even heard of one, and such a high quality case at that. Whoever commissioned that case in that style to accomodate the 1892 model open face Vanguard knew exactly what he wanted and probably created a unique watch. I believe that the Dubois Watch Case Company was very much a top end casemaker.

That watch is such a pleasure to look at. Must be a thrill to own it. Congratulations.

Mel


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## Shiner

The Dubois Watch Case Company made hand made solid gold cases. Not only for American watches but also for the top Swiss watch makers such as Patek-Philippe, Vacheron & Constantin, Meylan etc.,

This in advertisement they placed in The Jeweler's Circular in 1907.


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## Shiner

This is the Dubois mark on the watch.


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## craftvn

love design of movement


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## Melville

Hey Shiner, if you are going to concentrate on the Waltham 1892 grade and the other Vanguard grades does that mean you will be selling off some of your other beauties?


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## Shiner

I've already started selling some very nice quality watches Mel, not cheap though! The proceeds are going towards financing a few future additions.


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## Melville

Will you be posting any on the Forum Sales Shiner?


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## Shiner

No, but you can PM if you have a specific watch in mind.


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## Shiner

Picked this one up a few days ago. Not my cup of tea, but interesting and not seen too often. It's a Waltham hunter cased 14 size 1897 Model and dates to circa 1900/02. The 'Cronometro Victoria' name was owned by R.R. Fogel who had an arrangement with Waltham to export watches to South America. Roberto Fogel was originally from Victoria B.C. Canada and it is assumed that that is where the 'Victoria' part of the name derives from. These 'Cronometro Victoria' watches are seen in various sizes but in small quantities.


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## Shiner

The dial also carries the Cronometro Victoria name.


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## bowie

whats happened to the pics?


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## chris_s

Shiner, can you put the pics back please


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