# Spotting fake vintage Roamers



## Mtomtom

Hi,

Was just wondering if anyone could give me any tips on how to spot a fake Roamer? My husband was given one for Christmas, and it looks suspiciously new. It is supposed to be a 70s Roamer Popular, Searock. It was bought from a reasonably reputable eBay source, to the best of my knowledge, but we just want to be sure that the person who gave him it wasn't ripped off! I have noticed that there are a lot of cheap, shiny, 'vintage' Roamers from sellers in India, and am wondering if this is actually one of those. I haven't taken the back off yet, but shall have a look later - just wondering what to look out for.

Thanks in advance


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## martinzx

Post a few pictures that will help. :yes:

http://xflive.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/103087-how-to-post-a-picture-on-the-forum-new-for-2016/&do=embed

India is famous for repainting dials, that maybe the case??

Cheers Martin


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## andyclient

There are a lot of redials from India I'm afraid, this doesn't mean they are fake but they are often frakens, cobbled together from other watches , still the same make. But if the dial looks shiny new it quite possibly is. As you say once opened you will see what's what But I would think it more likely an Indian redial than fake , but obviously hard to say without seeing it

Typing as you posted Martin :thumbsup:


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## scottswatches

This is my first port of call with Roamers

http://roamer-watches.info


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## gimli

Please post a few pictures as I'm curious about all this. Never seen a fake roamer so far. I've seen redials and perhaps fake dials but nothing more. Is it entirely fake or just the dial/movement ?


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## Mtomtom

Interesting. I had seen a post about fake vintage Roamers, and just assumed that they are a 'thing'. Have been reading around today though, and, as you all have said, it seems unlikely to be completely fake. Anyhow, I have taken some pictures - the one of the dial is not great because my husband wore it in the shower, and the inside steamed up (one of the reasons we questioned its authenticity!).










Ah. I spent so much time rotating these images. That obviously went well.



















So, why do I doubt the authenticity?

1. The price was wrong - around £35, when I normally see these watches in this kind of condition go for £50+

2. There is a protective plastic coating on the back - you can see it is a bit pulled up in the picture. Seems odd (although am not knowledgeable in these things!).

3. It was supplied with a very cheap, leather strap. Obviously not original, but the watch looks unused - again seems odd to not have the original is that is the case.

I know this isn't a huge thing, but am just curious!


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## martinzx

Forget about in being waterproof, never after all this time, everything looks good except the watch movement, I think it is a cheap Chinese movement. 100% fake movement in my opinion.

Roamers may be old but they are high quality and that movement is not.

Cheers Martin

The Searock that I owned had a 523 automatic movement.


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## Dr_Niss

Some Roamer movements for comparison



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Mtomtom

Thanks for the responses - am not terribly surprised that it is a fake. Slightly disappointed at not having a 'frankenwatch' though - that sounds kind of cool! Cheap Chinese movement, on the other hand, less cool. Plus it loses time.

Lesson learned - if in doubt, buy watches where the movement is pictured! Now to break the news to the gift giver.


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## gimli

Honestly, I'm not convinced it's a fake. I don't think I've seen so far vintage watches with fake movements that were stamped and were made to look like the original (or at least have the company name and everything on it).

Your assessments of the authenticity of the watch are not how it's supposed to be done in my opinion.

1. Just because a watch sells for 50-100$ on average it doesn't mean that you won't find cheaper ones on the market every now and then. Sometimes the person selling it doesn't know the price, other times it's because they believe that is a good price for it.

2. You will find watches that are 60-70 years old still with plastic or paper covers on the case back that they had when they left the factory. Some are NOS (New Old Stock = a watch that was never used and stored specifically so that it wouldn't degrade over time) others are just like that and the owner never took it off.

3. It's rare to find a watch with its original strap especially if we're talking about leather straps and not metal bracelets. Usually this happens with the aforementioned NOS watches but even then not always with the strap as it degrades over time.

4. Your watch IS NOT waterproof. It doesn't even says so anywhere on the watch. From the pictures I can tell that it has a screw case back (good) but NOT a screw crown (bad). That's where the moisture entered the watch. This is actually a possible bad scenario as it can damage the watch or at least have it require a fresh service as the lubricants inside may have diluted or so.

In one of your pictures I can see that the movement model is written somewhere in the marked area. Could you please have a look and tell us what it says. We'll then compare it to an actual real original movement and see whether it's original or not. It could very well be just a very low-grade real swiss movement. Roamer isn't a top of the line brand and while they made good watches they probably made cheaper ones as well.


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## scottswatches

Mtomtom said:


> Thanks for the responses - am not terribly surprised that it is a fake. Slightly disappointed at not having a 'frankenwatch' though - that sounds kind of cool! Cheap Chinese movement, on the other hand, less cool. Plus it loses time.
> 
> Lesson learned - if in doubt, buy watches where the movement is pictured! Now to break the news to the gift giver.


 It might be a franken - the dial might be from a Searock (difficult to tell through the mist, but not nearly as bad as some indian 'redials' that look as if the job was described over the phone!). But the case back is from the Roamer Popular model, and they used similar movements to those shown not the nicer, MST earlier movements. So I'd guess it was a Bitsa - Bitsa this, Bitsa that.

EDIT - just seen @gimli beat me to it - I concur with the honourable gentleman


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## gimli

I agree with @scottswatches

It's probably just a franken watch. I'm not sure if the crown is signed but it probably belongs to a different era than the rest of the watch.

The watch gives off a 1970s vibe but could be 1980s 1990s.

Or, probably, it has parts from the 70s all the way up to the 80s/90s.


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## martinzx

The movement is fake 100% , the dial is original, not sure about the hands, as I cannot see well enough, but they maybe original

It is not a franken, because that movement is not Roamer. It looks like its been stamped with a potato... lol :laugh:

Cheers Martin


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## Mtomtom

Gimli - that's useful info about the plastic, I wasn't sure about it, but it's good to know that it could be perfectly normal. The watch does say 'waterproof' on the back (you can see it in the last picture), although it was certainly an oversight to wear it in the shower! I shall be thinking twice before buying him any expensive vintage watches...

Serial number: there is an ASST in a sort of shield, with the AS above the ST. Then there is 1950/51 with MB underneath it.

It was marketed as a Searock, so am still surprised by the price. I have watched a good few of these on eBay, and they always have a lot of interest, and go for relatively high prices (relatively for me, anyway. I don't spend a lot on watches!). Price isn't everything, but on a site like that, I think it can be a useful indicator of people seeing something that they are not sure about.

Martin: stamped with a potato is a pretty good description!


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## scottswatches

martinzx said:


> The movement is fake 100% , the dial is original, not sure about the hands, as I cannot see well enough, but they maybe original
> 
> It is not a franken, because that movement is not Roamer. It looks like its been stamped with a potato... lol :laugh:
> 
> Cheers Martin


 if it is post 1975 it could be right - 1975 marked the last year of Roamers movement manufacture in house and then they bought in movements, not always of the highest quality. That hammer stamping on the plates is typical of late 70's and later movements, as it was cheaper than properly finishing the movement. Another victim of the Quartz Crisis i'm sad to say

This super shock was on my bench yesterday - MST 372 from circa 1956


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## martinzx

scottswatches said:


> if it is post 1975 it could be right - 1975 marked the last year of Roamers movement manufacture in house and then they bought in movements, not always of the highest quality. That hammer stamping on the plates is typical of late 70's and later movements, as it was cheaper than properly finishing the movement. Another victim of the Quartz Crisis i'm sad to say
> 
> This super shock was on my bench yesterday - MST 372 from circa 1956


 I will standby my comments as a 100% fake movement cobbled together by somebody far away.  I cannot accept Roamer would turn out a watch that poor quality, sorry 

But I am willing to be proved wrong...

Cheers Martin :laugh:


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## gimli

I've seen quite a few swiss brands use similar movements on their watches.


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## martinzx

gimli said:


> I've seen quite a few swiss brands use similar movements on their watches.


 Pictures please 

Cheers Martin


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## Tazmo61

It looks like a AS 1950 movement to me


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## martinzx

This is a picture of the Searock, i had cant find a movement picture just yet...


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## gimli

AS/ST 1950/51 is an Adolph Schild movement and by the looks of it it looks to be genuine although I can't seem to find one with this particular finish (I forgot what that texture is called).


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## martinzx

The AS 1950 movement dates from the mid 1960's when Roamer were doing their own in-house movements, it does not make any sense to me??

Cheers Martin


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## martinzx

gimli said:


> Honestly, I'm not convinced it's a fake. I don't think I've seen so far vintage watches with fake movements that were stamped and were made to look like the original (or at least have the company name and everything on it).


 I am just saying :yes: I seen potato stamps before :laugh:










https://www.poshtime.com/463.001/Roamer-Searock-c.1960s.php

Here is a Searock movement


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## martinzx

Another movement that looks different :yes:

https://www.poshtime.com/495.156/Roamer-Searock-c.1960s.php


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## gimli

Given that it looks like a franken all around the movement might be from a different Roamer model as well. Just a theory.


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## martinzx

gimli said:


> Given that it looks like a franken all around the movement might be from a different Roamer model as well. Just a theory.


 Yes indeed, but you can see the difference in quality, while Roamer where not a top tier brand, they were very good quality in-house movements and that what has thrown me.

Cheers Martin


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## Tazmo61

That is very true , but during the seventies (start of quartz crisis ) even the mighty JLC switched to AS movements in their club range . Here is another Roamer with an AS movement


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## gimli

Many watch brands had good periods and bad periods. Many watch brands would use both higher and lower end movements. Sometimes because they wanted to have a wide range of products to offer to a larger market (low grade watches, mid range, high end, premium, etc.) other times it was for political/logistical or economic reasons.

I've only seen high end brands with fake movements (Omega, Breitling, Rolex) and never really on vintage watches. Faked out movements are actually so bad that they would misstype words or details on the movements (or do it on purpose for legal reasons).


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## martinzx

Tazmo61 said:


> That is very true , but during the seventies (start of quartz crisis ) even the mighty JLC switched to AS movements in their club range . Here is another Roamer with an AS movement


 I stand corrected, but at least you can see the Roamer logo etched in the movement, not like the last stamp, must have been just before the door shut in the 1970's very, very sad! 

Cheers guys, I enjoyed the discussion.

I have had many Roamers and always very pleased to own great quality in-house movements. A sad end to a great company.

Cheers Martin :thumbsup:



Tazmo61 said:


> That is very true , but during the seventies (start of quartz crisis ) even the mighty JLC switched to AS movements in their club range .


 That is outrageous :laugh: . The Quartz revolution has a lot to answer for ...lol :yes:

Cheers Martin


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## Tazmo61

gimli said:


> Many watch brands had good periods and bad periods. Many watch brands would use both higher and lower end movements. Sometimes because they wanted to have a wide range of products to offer to a larger market (low grade watches, mid range, high end, premium, etc.) other times it was for political/logistical or economic reasons.
> 
> I've only seen high end brands with fake movements (Omega, Breitling, Rolex) and never really on vintage watches. Faked out movements are actually so bad that they would misstype words or details on the movements (or do it on purpose for legal reasons).


 That is very true too . But during the seventies watch companies that produced their own movements, started to produce watches with other movements(more economic to produce) has an answer to the quartz crisis , Roamer started to use more AS movements in the70s , JLC also produced the club range as an answer to the quartz crisis .http://www.fellows.co.uk/blog/watches/2014/09/05/jaeger-lecoultre-'club'---a-great-brand-on-a-budget/


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## gimli

It would be worth mentioning, however, that AS (Anton Schild) should not be synonymous with low quality movements.

They had some pretty good movements as well that could be found across mid-level watches/brands. ETA themselves also had lower-grade movements as well. Simpler, cheaper.


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## Tazmo61

gimli said:


> It would be worth mentioning, however, that AS (Anton Schild) should not be synonymous with low quality movements.
> 
> They had some pretty good movements as well that could be found across mid-level watches/brands. ETA themselves also had lower-grade movements as well. Simpler, cheaper.


 I totally agree gimli :thumbsup:


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## scottswatches

martinzx said:


> https://www.poshtime.com/463.001/Roamer-Searock-c.1960s.php
> 
> Here is a Searock movement


 I forgot I have one! It isn't the nicest example by far, but the movement is the same as the one above and it is engraved for 1978. Not ideal dating evidence, but it is unlikely to be later

http://www.birthyearwatches.com/1978-roamer-searock/


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## gimli

Now he tells us...  And a shameful attempt to advertise too! :laugh:


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## scottswatches

gimli said:


> Now he tells us...  And a shameful attempt to advertise too! :laugh:


 I do have some very nice Roamer watches. And I have that Searock too :laugh:


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## Karrusel

gimli said:


> It would be worth mentioning, however, that AS (Anton Schild) should not be synonymous with low quality movements.
> 
> They had some pretty good movements as well that could be found across mid-level watches/brands. ETA themselves also had lower-grade movements as well. Simpler, cheaper.


 Indeed, the Schild family of watchmakers since their inception in 1856 by Urs Schild will always be respected in the world of horology.

In the early 1900's it was the coming together of Frederic-Emile Blancpain, Walter Vogt (Fortis), Anton Schild, John Harwood & later Leon Hatot (French jeweller & designer), who together produced some timepieces that are now revered & sought after.

There are many of their very early timepieces still working efficiently (with routine servicing & respect) to this day, testament to their quality IMO. :thumbsup:


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## Mtomtom

Wow. When you guys answer a question, you don't do it by halves! Thank you so much for all of your input - I have learned a fair bit about Roamers, and watches in general. It's also good to know that the watch is probably legit - and interesting to find out what is inside it.

I also have a potential early Rolex, might post that one next...


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## Pip

I really enjoy reading through posts like this, even if I'm unable to contribute anything to the discussion. Great work guys!


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## bluesdog

looks like st 96 movement. india use them in everything

The finish is just like an st 96 I might be wrong but I don't think so. Anyone know how to date a timer searock auto. I have one for sale and need to date it. Keep getting asked how old it is. Thanks


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