# The Future Of The "Watch Of The Future"



## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

I was talking to Rene Rondeau today about the future of the "Watch of the Wuture". I bought an Altair from Rene (photos to come) and we were talking about parts. We were talking about the contact wires for the 500 movement which he said would be a monumental task. He spoke of having 505 battery clamps made and the trouble that small piece caused him.

He then said that we are going to be out of parts.

*Now let's be heretical:*

Rene suggested that if we want to keep the watches ACTUALLY RUNNING instead of just sitting in a drawer that we will need to consider an alternative movement. He suggested that if a quartz replacement movement could be used for an EXACT, NO MODIFICATION replacement so we could swap movements and keep the old ones as pristine as possible we would be able to enjoy the watches into the future. In the absence of this, the end of the parts is probably coming soon.

I happen to be in agreement. I have had hell with onions on it trying to keep some 500s going (more accuately, Silver Hawk has had the aggravation) and I think that I would wear a Pacer on a frequent basis, rather than just occasionally, if I could wear it without worrying about parts.

*Hamilton guys: weigh in on this thread please.*


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Dave,

Here are my random thoughts:

1) Obviously, this is not just limited to Hamiltons; Accutrons and other tuning fork movements continue to fail but donor watches are still plentiful and, in some cases, NOS parts / movements are still available...but there will come a time when these are in the same acute position that watches with the Hamilton 500 are in.

2) It is also not limited to watches of course. As you know, I have a couple of vintage bikes, and spares for those dried up decades ago and even the skills to keep them on the road are hard to find; the barrel of my Silver Hawk is currently in Latvia being re-bored by one of the few people I'd trust with it.

3) We might disagree on this one. Since you seem not to mind wearing a Hamilton Ventura / Pacer with a quartz movement in it, why not just buy a modern Swatch Group Hamilton Ventura like the one below? To me, I have to be wearing the complete package, no matter how rare the movement or how poor the movement is. I would not ride my vintage bikes with a modern Honda engine in them --- I'd rather buy a Honda.

4) As you know, the Hamilton factory did fit quartz movements to Hamilton Electrics in the 1980s. They used a now obsolete quartz ESA movement + a ring which allowed them to keep the original dial feet (i.e. no modifications to the dial) but had to change the hands due to different diameters on the hour and minute wheels. I feel sure that, with a bit of research + a lathe, I'd be able to fit a modern ladies quartz movement into these Hamilton Electrics; the original hands might need to be sleeved but this could easily be reversed and no permanent changes would be made to the dials, hands, case or stem.

5) Another option is to follow the Pacermatic route. I'm currently converting two Pacers to Pacermatics using genuine Pacermatic movement rings and two Hamilton Cal. 667 auto movements. The dials are off being refinished. However, in this case, you would have to move the dial feet since Cal. 667 and Cal. 500 have their feet in different positions.



















505 Vela on the left, quartz Vela on the right:










The ESA 155.121 quartz movement as used by Hamilton when converting:


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## feenix (May 27, 2008)

I'm with Martin on this one (I'd also buy the quartz Swatch version), as these get harder to repair I'd sooner see them with a quartz movement and worn than sealed away in an air-tight vault.

I see what you are saying Silverhawk, 'original' is best, but it sounds as if we are getting to the stage where 'original' may no longer be an option in the near future, or the cost of such a repair may no longer be affordable. If this is the case, I'd proudly wear a quartz version.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Not sure who Martin is... 

With the best intentions, I can see Hamilton 500 movements being removed and put safely into storage to be replaced with cheap quartz movements...but how many of these Hamilton movements will then be "lost" forever?

I can see it now...owner dies, widow gets the local house clearance "expert" in, and the Hamilton watch with the quartz movement get saved but the original 500 movement is junked.


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## gaz64 (May 5, 2009)

Paul are you saying f300's will go the same way? I understand f720's have hit this stage already is that right


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## harleymanstan (May 29, 2009)

It does present an interesting problem, and I think how one approaches Hamilton Electrics will determine which solution is satisfactory.

A collector of the Arbib styling primarily, will probably be ok with a quartz replacement.

One who is also very fascinated with the movements, and the fact that this was the first electric watch may feel that the watch has lost a lot of it's "aura" with a replacement quartz.

I think if you make those the two extremes, all of us fall in somewhere between. I know I have sold Hamilton Electrics on ebay with factory quartz movements, and they do not seem to fare so well, even though they are much more reliable. The movement I refer to is in Rondeau's book. It does not require any special case rings, or moving the dial feet, so the watch could be converted back easily. Still, they have not done as well.

As the parts become more difficult to obtain, they will increase in value, making a watch with original movement much more expensive. At that point, quartz might seem more of a viable option to many collectors. This might also make a "wires project" more feasible, since one could charge a pretty fair price for a set to make an old 500 or 500A run.

For myself, I'll try to keep my 500's and 505's running with original movements. There is something unnatural about seeing a Hamilton Electric with a quartz second hand "tick."

I'll be interested to see pictures of the Altair.

harleymanstan


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

gaz64 said:


> Paul are you saying f300's will go the same way? I understand f720's have hit this stage already is that right


You are correct, Megasonics parts (720Hz) are hard to get...I think STS can still repair them.

I'm sure there will come a time when we run out of F300 index wheels or coils...although, in this case, it will probably be in many years time.


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## feenix (May 27, 2008)

Silver Hawk said:


> Not sure who Martin is...


Yep, as soon as I read it back ................................. :to_become_senile:



Silver Hawk said:


> With the best intentions, I can see Hamilton 500 movements being removed and put safely into storage to be replaced with cheap quartz movements...but how many of these Hamilton movements will then be "lost" forever?
> 
> I can see it now...owner dies, widow gets the local house clearance "expert" in, and the Hamilton watch with the quartz movement get saved but the original 500 movement is junked.


You have a good point, to remove it whilst its still perfect seems a little O.T.T. (and something I'd not choose to do personally) but to lose the technology forever would be worse imho


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## gaz64 (May 5, 2009)

Silver Hawk said:


> gaz64 said:
> 
> 
> > Paul are you saying f300's will go the same way? I understand f720's have hit this stage already is that right
> ...


I wouldn't mind adding a megasonic to my list but nervous about the idea of not being able to keep it running


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

gaz64 said:


> I wouldn't mind adding a megasonic to my list but nervous about the idea of not being able to keep it running


Be brave! I have 3-4 Megasonics...and they are great watches...when working. :lol:

Just look at this tuning fork:


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

> 3) We might disagree on this one. Since you seem not to mind wearing a Hamilton Ventura / Pacer with a quartz movement in it, why not just buy a modern Swatch Group Hamilton Ventura like the one below? To me, I have to be wearing the complete package, no matter how rare the movement or how poor the movement is. I would not ride my vintage bikes with a modern Honda engine in them --- I'd rather buy a Honda.


Im with the Hawkless Hawkie on this point, I hate having non-original parts on my vintage watches, bugs me a lot....


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## watchnutz (Jan 18, 2008)

Looks as if the #40 will be the last electric standing! :derisive:


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## dombox40 (Oct 20, 2008)

I,m sure the choice will be made for us in the future when the only thing you will be able to get for 500,s is a quartz replacement, what I cant understand is why these wires need to be gold surely there is another good conductor of the power of the battery that will do the job.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

watchnutz said:


> Looks as if the #40 will be the last electric standing! :derisive:


Are you referring to the Timex calibre Bill? I bet you are...and you're probably right. :lol:


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

jasonm said:


> > 3) We might disagree on this one. Since you seem not to mind wearing a Hamilton Ventura / Pacer with a quartz movement in it, why not just buy a modern Swatch Group Hamilton Ventura like the one below? To me, I have to be wearing the complete package, no matter how rare the movement or how poor the movement is. I would not ride my vintage bikes with a modern Honda engine in them --- I'd rather buy a Honda.
> 
> 
> Im with the Hawkless Hawkie on this point, *I hate having non-original parts on my vintage watches*, bugs me a lot....


I hate having non-original parts as well, but I think I would HATE MORE not being able to have my watch run.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

martinus_scriblerus said:


> I hate having non-original parts as well, but I think I would HATE MORE not being able to have my watch run.


I hope you're going to say more than that...it took me ages to type my response :schmoll:  .


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

Silver Hawk said:


> martinus_scriblerus said:
> 
> 
> > I hate having non-original parts as well, but I think I would HATE MORE not being able to have my watch run.
> ...


Well, since you are a RETIRED GENT you have all the time in the world to be an independent man of leisure. Those of us who are still working stiffs have to allocate our time judiciously.


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## Stratman (May 30, 2009)

Very interesting thread with many thoughtful comments. I have two Hamiltons with replacement quartz movements, a Titan and a Converta III, but these are duplicates that I picked up inexpensively. I find that I tend to wear them and keep their counterparts with original movements in the box.

The parts problem reminds me of vintage automobiles. One of my cousins, a retired airline mechanic, restored old cars as a sideline for many years and made a lot of money doing so. With some models -- Fords, for example -- parts were plentiful, but other cars were produced in such low numbers that replacement parts had to be specially made. That could get very expensive very quickly.

That will be the case for Hamilton electrics as well, and going quartz will be the only realistic solution for those of us without large bank accounts.


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## harleymanstan (May 29, 2009)

dombox40 said:


> I,m sure the choice will be made for us in the future when the only thing you will be able to get for 500,s is a quartz replacement, what I cant understand is why these wires need to be gold surely there is another good conductor of the power of the battery that will do the job.


It's not the material the wires are made from in the 500 and 500A. They are not gold. It's their specific dimensions. The tiny button on the tip of the contact wire, the perfect bend in it, and the tiny box welded onto the trip wire.

These could surely be made today, but the cost of undertaking such a project could be very high. The person contracted to produce these would not want to take the effort to reproduce them without having a very large order, I would say.

Just like Rene Rondeau and the battery clips. He told me he had to order such a large quantity to get anyone to do it that he will never sell all he has.

And the problem is, these are not battery clips--a much simpler job. These are very intricate parts, to say the least.

harleymanstan


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

harleymanstan said:


> dombox40 said:
> 
> 
> > I,m sure the choice will be made for us in the future when the only thing you will be able to get for 500,s is a quartz replacement, what I cant understand is why these wires need to be gold surely there is another good conductor of the power of the battery that will do the job.
> ...


I've had similar thoughts about ESA 916x coils and index wheels, as those are my 'passion'.

At some point, the scarcity of working movements and desirability of the model will presumably drive the prices up still further. At some point, it must make economic sense to remanufacture parts, rather than break cheaper models for spares (as their prices rise too). If that were the case, could new parts be sold for a high enough premium so that, even if xx% are thrown away, the person who commissioned them would make money or at least break even?

Would having the original tooling reduce costs? Has anyone contacted Hamilton, in this case, to ask whether they (or any company that subsequently purchased them), retained that original tooling or, if they sub-contracted their manufacture, whether the sub-contractor has the tooling?

Presumably the tooling wasn't physically huge?

Am probably being naÃ¯ve though.


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