# Pin Lever Watches



## Andy the Squirrel

A pin lever watch is a a mechanical watch that has substituted jewels for metal pins on the pallet fork that engages with the escape wheel. Anyone have a watch with one of these movements, care to post a photo and comment on how it's running?

Here is one that I own:










It's currently accurate to about 1-2 minutes a day.


----------



## Barrow Boy

I am a big fan of these movements (primarily since I collect English watches). They are simple, very reliable and *loud* (which I must admit I like in my mechanicals). As you mention I have no problem getting accuracy down to 1-2 minutes a day on most of mine. Some need a proper service and run much faster (magnetized hairsprings which I can not fix at the moment) but assuming there is nothing wrong with them that sort of accuracy seems eminently doable and is perfectly good enough for me.

Don't have any photos of movements to hand at the moment but will try to take some this afternoon.

Here are a couple of old Ingersolls (the main brand I collect) that I believe are pin pallets but I am not at home to check now.










and










Both of these are jeweled - which pin pallets often are not and makes me a little concerned that they might be later movements but if my memory serves they are pin pallets. :blush:

I would not be at all surprised if Mach comes along soon with some Services....

Cheers,

BB


----------



## diddy

Barrow Boy said:


> I am a big fan of these movements (primarily since I collect English watches). They are simple, very reliable and *loud* (which I must admit I like in my mechanicals). As you mention I have no problem getting accuracy down to 1-2 minutes a day on most of mine. Some need a proper service and run much faster (magnetized hairsprings which I can not fix at the moment) but assuming there is nothing wrong with them that sort of accuracy seems eminently doable and is perfectly good enough for me.
> 
> Don't have any photos of movements to hand at the moment but will try to take some this afternoon.
> 
> Here are a couple of old Ingersolls (the main brand I collect) that I believe are pin pallets but I am not at home to check now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both of these are jeweled - which pin pallets often are not and makes me a little concerned that they might be later movements but if my memory serves they are pin pallets. :blush:
> 
> I would not be at all surprised if Mach comes along soon with some Services....
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> BB


that bottom one is really lovely :yes:


----------



## Barrow Boy

diddy said:


> Barrow Boy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a big fan of these movements (primarily since I collect English watches). They are simple, very reliable and *loud* (which I must admit I like in my mechanicals). As you mention I have no problem getting accuracy down to 1-2 minutes a day on most of mine. Some need a proper service and run much faster (magnetized hairsprings which I can not fix at the moment) but assuming there is nothing wrong with them that sort of accuracy seems eminently doable and is perfectly good enough for me.
> 
> Don't have any photos of movements to hand at the moment but will try to take some this afternoon.
> 
> Here are a couple of old Ingersolls (the main brand I collect) that I believe are pin pallets but I am not at home to check now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Both of these are jeweled - which pin pallets often are not and makes me a little concerned that they might be later movements but if my memory serves they are pin pallets. :blush:
> 
> I would not be at all surprised if Mach comes along soon with some Services....
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> BB
> 
> 
> 
> that bottom one is really lovely :yes:
Click to expand...

Thanks Diddy it is one of my favourites. Shame about the stain around the edge of the dial but it does not look bad. I wear that one a lot.

Cheers,

BB


----------



## Micky

I've always struggled to service these type of watches. Generally movements that come with this type of escapement have few jewels and are prone to wear. You don't seem to get features that make servicing simple like a removeable hairspring stud on these type of watches. The 5 jewel ingersols use a very sililar if not the same movement as the smiths empires. Lot's of older timexs use pallet pin escapements. I've never known how to oil the pallet pins/escape wheel and can't find any info. Perhaps you don't on this type of watch? You are right about them being loud. I have one I call "Big Ben" It can't stay in the bedroom as it is too loud for me to sleep!!!


----------



## Chascomm

Barrow Boy said:


> Both of these are jeweled - which pin pallets often are not and makes me a little concerned that they might be later movements but if my memory serves they are pin pallets.


There are more pin-pallet watche with jewels that without (although there are a lot of Timexes out there). I think your Ingersolls both use the Anglo-Celtic RY, made in Wales. In fact the entire watch was probably made by Anglo-Celtic which was a Smiths/Ingersoll joint venture.

Here's my RY:










running great. It's a parts-bin refugee from my watchmaker.

Here's a later TY:










also running great (but the lack of quick-change on the date is a right pain)

I've also got a rather careworn no-jewel Scots Westclox:










and a couple of no-jewel East German Ruhla's:










Not to mention a no-jewel English Guildhall (Swiss Ebosa ebauche just prior to Newmark picking up the tooling), and an Israeli-assembled Nelson jump-hour with a Swiss BFG ebauche with seventeen (17) jewels! Oh, yes; my son now wears my old Timex, Scottish case with Taiwanese no-jewel movement. A great little watch, that one.

Did I mention my Korean assembled Japanese parts automatic with plastic pin-pallet movement?

Nothing wrong with owning and using pin-pallets, providing you can find a sympathetic watchmaker.


----------



## watchnutz

"A pin lever watch is a a mechanical watch that has substituted jewels for metal pins on the pallet fork that engages with the escape wheel"

It is the complete oposite. A pin lever has just that, pins, mounted verically on the pallet , where a lever escapement has jeweled forks on the pallet. There are many lowly pin levers still running fine after a hundred years.

Here is an American made Ingersoll pin lever from 1922 still going strong.


----------



## mel

Micky said:


> I've never known how to oil the pallet pins/escape wheel and can't find any info. Perhaps you don't on this type of watch? You are right about them being loud. I have one I call "Big Ben" It can't stay in the bedroom as it is too loud for me to sleep!!!


Micky, Google on "Budget Watch Collecting" and follow the Wiki link there to Pin Pallet/Timex Maintenance - also lots of other good info on DIY stuff for budget *AND* jewelled watches. The Timex page is by one of the guys on the Timex forum. 

These Wiki pages are useful info for anyone starting to tinker - ENJOY! :lol:


----------



## Micky

Thank you Mel that looks good. I'll have a proper read of that later.


----------



## watchnutz

Here is an example of a pin lever pallet. It is obvious why it is so named. The two pins are what control the escape in much the same manner as the verge on a pendulum clock.

Sorry my camera would not get a better closeup.


----------



## Markrlondon

Chascomm said:


> Here's a later TY:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also running great (but the lack of quick-change on the date is a right pain)


I have an identical model and it is actually one of my favourite watches to wear. It's elegant and the tick is very... satisfying, for want of a better word.


----------



## ValvesRule

> I've never known how to oil the pallet pins/escape wheel and can't find any info.


I suggest you oil the Escape Wheel teeth, and let the oil be carried round to the pins.

"A pin lever watch is a a mechanical watch that has substituted jewels for *metal pins on the pallet fork* that engages with the escape wheel"

"A pin lever has just that, *pins, mounted verically on the pallet* , where a lever escapement has jeweled forks on the pallet."

These are not opposites, and in both cases terminology is misused.

Allow me to clarify.

The Pin Pallet escapement is a form of Lever Escapement in which the pallet jewels are replaced by vertical pins (called Pallet Pins?), and the impulse/locking faces are made into the Escape Wheel teeth instead of the pallets.

(I assume they are called Pallet Pins because there are also Banking Pins and Curb Pins.)


----------



## johnbaz

ValvesRule said:


> I've never known how to oil the pallet pins/escape wheel and can't find any info.
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest you oil the Escape Wheel teeth, and let the oil be carried round to the pins.
> 
> "A pin lever watch is a mechanical watch that has substituted jewels for *metal pins on the pallet fork* that engages with the escape wheel"
> 
> "A pin lever has just that, *pins, mounted vertically on the pallet* , where a lever escapement has jewelled forks on the pallet."
> 
> These are not opposites, and in both cases terminology is misused.
> 
> Allow me to clarify.
> 
> The Pin Pallet escapement is a form of Lever Escapement in which the pallet jewels are replaced by vertical pins (called Pallet Pins?), and the impulse/locking faces are made into the Escape Wheel teeth instead of the pallets.
> 
> (I assume they are called Pallet Pins because there are also Banking Pins and Curb Pins.)
Click to expand...

Exactly correct :thumbsup:

the banking pins(or curb pins) are there to limit the travel of the lever and to keep the movement in balance, ie, the same amount of 'tick' as 'tock'

the pin pallet was designed by a chap called Roskopff and from memory, i think he won a nobel prize for it....bringing affordable timepieces to the masses... or something similar  

john


----------



## Markrlondon

johnbaz said:


> the pin pallet was designed by a chap called Roskopff and from memory, i think he won a nobel prize for it....bringing affordable timepieces to the masses... or something similar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> john


A richly deserved Nobel, I'd say (unlike some!).


----------



## ValvesRule

johnbaz said:


> the banking pins(or curb pins) are there to limit the travel of the lever and to keep the movement in balance, ie, the same amount of 'tick' as 'tock'


Are the Curb Pins not those of the Regulator which restrain the expansion/contraction of the Balance Spring at a variable point?

When I wrote "...there are also Banking Pins and Curb Pins", I meant that there are things called Banking Pins and other things called Curb Pins, so perhaps Pallet Pin is a suitable name.

I agree with your description of Banking Pins, and would add that they are found on other escapements than the Lever. The Verge, for instance, has a Banking Pin on the Balance Wheel, and two others on the Cock, so that it doesn't swing too far and let go of Crown Wheel.


----------



## johnbaz

ValvesRule said:


> johnbaz said:
> 
> 
> 
> the banking pins(or curb pins) are there to limit the travel of the lever and to keep the movement in balance, ie, the same amount of 'tick' as 'tock'
> 
> 
> 
> Are the Curb Pins not those of the Regulator which restrain the expansion/contraction of the Balance Spring at a variable point?
> 
> When I wrote "...there are also Banking Pins and Curb Pins", I meant that there are things called Banking Pins and other things called Curb Pins, so perhaps Pallet Pin is a suitable name.
> 
> I agree with your description of Banking Pins, and would add that they are found on other escapements than the Lever. The Verge, for instance, has a Banking Pin on the Balance Wheel, and two others on the Cock, so that it doesn't swing too far and let go of Crown Wheel.
Click to expand...

Crikey- my memory is terrible, yes, you're spot on again, i recall the curb pins as being called index pins but upon looking at my book curb and index pins are two different names for the same things 

cheers, john


----------



## watchnutz

The original poster said *"A pin lever watch is a a mechanical watch that has **substituted jewels for metal pins on the pallet fork ** that engages with the escape wheel"*

To which I said and still say,it is the opposite.

IMHO you chaps are getting afar from the original premise of what a pin lever escapement is. i.e. banking pins are on many movements.

Here is the pin lever escapement. The shaded area is the pallet as I showed with my photo. Notice the pallet pins and the impulse pin. On some watches this would be the roller jewel.


----------



## ValvesRule

watchnutz said:


> The original poster said *"A pin lever watch is a a mechanical watch that has **substituted jewels for metal pins on the pallet fork ** that engages with the escape wheel"*
> 
> To which I said and still say,it is the opposite.


How is it the opposite? Indeed, what is the opposite?

There are Pins instead of Jewels on the "Pallet Fork"(Lever).

(Unless, of course, the argument is about whether the pallets are on the fork, or the forks are on the pallet. This is the only major difference between Andy's definition and yours.

I state - using this slightly dubious terminology - that the Pallets (in Pin form) are on the Fork (Lever, or Balance-end of Lever).)



> IMHO you chaps are getting afar from the original premise of what a pin lever escapement is. i.e. banking pins are on many movements.


Quite correct.

I was simply explaining why I thought that "pallet pin" was a suitable term, in the absence an authoritative source (such as the drawing you have just posted - thank you).


----------



## mel

Are we not talking "semantics/grammar" here chaps? :yes:

As Bill did, I read the Original post and thought "Whoops, that's wrong" but it really didn't bother me too much. I assumed (wrongly perhaps) that I would have said something like -

"where the jewels have been substituted by two metal pins on the pallet fork",

since my understanding is that is approximately what has happened in the construction of a pin [pallet] movement, that is to say the jewels are replaced by two metal pins on the pallet fork.


----------



## ValvesRule

mel said:


> Are we not talking "semantics/grammar" here chaps? :yes:


It seems to me that it's slightly more fundemental than that.

All three definitions given in this thread (Andy's, Watchnutz's and mine) are basically correct, apart from the terminology, yet Watchnutz, here, seems to be suggesting that a Pin Pallet escapement is the opposite of "a mechanical watch that has substituted jewels for metal pins on the pallet fork that engages with the escape wheel".

I would quite like to know what the opposite is, even allowing for terminological errors.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and if I am I apologise.

But note that my definition http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=47067&view=findpost&p=495806 is not in dispute; indeed it is agreed with.

Is Bill Watchnutz?


----------



## watchnutz

Maybe it is a case of us colonists not reading the king's english properly. ardon:

The way I read that sentence is, " A pin lever watch is a mechanical watch" (he is going to define a pin lever watch) "that has substituted jewels for metal pins" (stating the condition that it has jewels rather than pins) "on the pallet fork that engages with the escape wheel" (stating where they are located). The last part is correct.

Now, with *my* interpretation of that sentence, that is the opposite of what a pin lever is. To my uneducated mind it should read, A pin lever watch is a mechanical watch that has metal pins substituted for jewels on the pallet fork that engages with the escape wheel.

That was all I was trying to convey from the start.

:drinks:

BTW my name always appears in my signature


----------



## ValvesRule

Ahhhh, I see.

Sorry.

:drinks: I'll pay.

B.T.W. Oh yes, so it does.


----------



## mel

watchnutz said:


> Maybe it is a case of us colonists not reading the *king's english* properly. ardon:
> 
> That was all I was trying to convey from the start.
> 
> :drinks:


Come on Bill, you may be old, but you're not *THAT* old - Queenie's been around for ages :lol: I mean, I can just remember the Coronation - on a nine inch screen telly, and I'm old as well :grin:

That's the point I was trying to make - it's about the way you read the sentence :yes:

Glad we got that all sorted out, Phew! :rofl2:


----------



## watchnutz

mel said:


> Come on Bill, you may be old, but you're not *THAT* old - Queenie's been around for ages :lol: I mean, I can just remember the Coronation - on a nine inch screen telly, and I'm old as well :grin:


Not that old? There was no such thing as a telly when I was a lad. We rushed home from school (twern't any school buses either) to sit in front of a Philco console radio and listen to The Green Hornet and Jack Armstong.









I did forget that Edward got ousted because of an American bird and George died in 52 when I was already out of school.

Told you I was older than dirt!


----------



## Griff

*Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!*

Some interesting pieces, but TBH just thinking about pin levers make me want to grip the edge of my desk with me toes and scream

I also remember Timex pin lever and I wouldn't trust them anywhere near me..............sorry!!!!


----------



## mel

Scream away Griff, it'll do nothing but good for you! :lol:

Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin' - I can pick up a lucky bag off the bay any day, - let's say twenty Ticka Timex in there - fire up the ultrasonic and have around 15 working with just a thorough clean and light lube :yes:

Of that 15, maybe 6 will need a tweak on the timing - usually because someone has already tweaked it to try and keep it running, the last five will maybe have knackered crystals or broken case, but often still working or good for spares. Plus it's fun - they're great to poke sticks at, if you b*gger one, there's another one along in a minute. :notworthy:


----------



## watchnutz

Griff said:


> *Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!*
> 
> Some interesting pieces, but TBH just thinking about pin levers make me want to grip the edge of my desk with me toes and scream
> 
> I also remember Timex pin lever and I wouldn't trust them anywhere near me..............sorry!!!!


Leaves all the more for those of us that love old Timexes like this sorry old *1953* that is still tickin merrily along.


----------

