# Quality Control Issues



## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

I have heard that on another forum people are saying that there is no warranty with O&W watches and that there is a problem with quality control.

Any O&W watch that is purchased from RLT is guaranteed for 12 months and thoroughly checked by me.


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## Foggy (Feb 25, 2003)

Hello Roy

I was quite surprised by this revelation about no manufacturers warranty. I understand that buying from a retailer, such as yourself, is safe enough due to the fact that you offer the warranty yourself. However, it does seem strange that the manufacturer offers no warranty ? Any ideas as to why this is ? Does it mean that if there was a problem with a watch, the cost of putting it right comes out of your pocket ?

Cheers

Foggy


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

If there is ever a problem then it is usually something simple, and I would rather do myself then send it all the way back to Switzerland. There is very little to go wrong anyway. I have had a customer knock a bezel off and small things like cross threading the crown. I just get either the parts from O&W to fix them or swop the cases. Obviously this sort of thing cannot be done by every dealer but if not I'm sure that O&W would sort it out.

I have only ever had to send one watch back to O&W for exchange and that was because there was a mark on the case because of a packaging issue.

I have never need to send an O&W back for a warranty issue.



> Does it mean that if there was a problem with a watch, the cost of putting it right comes out of your pocket ?


If ever there was a major problem, which I doubt, then I am sure that Mr. Wajs would compensate me as we have a very good business relationship.


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## namaste (May 8, 2003)

I guess many people can not understand that business can be done on a basis other than a legal and contractual one... Fortunately there are some examples to prove all is not lost on this planet


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

Don't understand why people are knocking these watches on another forum.

They are made to a great price, they use the same cases etc as several other manufacturers who charge at least 30% more for them.

The MP case and tonneau case are identical to other watches out there.

I have seen their divers watches sold for double our prices with other manufacturers names on the dials.

Quality is better and more reliable than another manufacturers that I could but won't mention.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Am I not right in thinking that the O & W Mirage 111 is more original than its SINN lookalike?

My M5 is also spot on, and I have found O & W free from any niggles.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

Don't know which came first Griff but they all buy the cases, dials etc from the same places in Switzerland.

I understand that Sinn are a very young company and have not been around very long.


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## MIKE (Feb 23, 2003)

Hi,

I can't fault the three(M1 Cougar M65) I have. Up today I had never heard anything negative about them and that they were concidered good value watches. I would certanly buy another in the future.

MIKE..


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

You're right Mike, thats what I thought.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

From what I've seen of Sinn (which is only on line not seen one in the flesh) they do seem rather expensive. Anyone had / got one?


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## MIKE (Feb 23, 2003)

and mine did not come from a "proper dealer" like you


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

> From what I've seen of Sinn (which is only on line not seen one in the flesh) they do seem rather expensive. Anyone had / got one?


No I went off them when they started copying O&W watches.


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## 036 (Feb 27, 2003)

I like my M4 generally, it is a solid watch, not that well finished superficially but it all feels fundamentally well put together.

I do think it is good value for money.

I wasn't knocking O&W as they stand - but I do think, and believe it or not I will quote Andy here who summed it up well on Eddies, that they are



> parts bin specials with work horse movements


. That is all they are, they are not bargain basement Patek Philippes.

And I think it is undeniable that there is the odd example that is not quite up to scratch in terms of case finish or bezel alignment, I have seen a few posts around the place saying so.

I also must admit it was news that there was no manufacturers warranty as such. Even at the lower end of the market that is pretty rare these days.

So rather than knocking O&W, I call for a little realism.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Just been on site looking at the O&W range. Some noice stuff there 

Tell me Roy do you ever get any orders for those 18K aviations?


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

> parts bin specials with work horse movements


That is just not true Si, if they are saying that about O&W then they must say it about many other companies who produce much more expensive watches.

There *IS *a manufacturers warranty as far as I am concerned.

Many watches bought from an unauthorised sources do not carry a manufacturers warranty ours *DO.*



> And I think it is undeniable that there is the odd example that is not quite up to scratch in terms of case finish or bezel alignment,


I hear horror stories about many manufacturers, with watches costing many times more. We are not talking about an expensive watch here.

If any are not up to scratch then they are sent back.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

> Tell me Roy do you ever get any orders for those 18K aviations?


In a word no, but I'm hopefull.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Well my first O&W is on its way; I for one am not worried about lack of O&W warranty with Roy as the dealer. I think they are very good value


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Roy said:


> No I went off them when they started copying O&W watches.
























...................nice one!!!


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

I wouldn't be worried either. Many watches use generic parts these days as do the RLT range.

I don't have a problem with RLT watches, I'll be looking forward to future releases.

If O&W use generic parts from the same suppliers as other "assemblers" (which most manufacturers are these days) it can have no more problems than the others.

There is no "Holy Grail" if most assemblers are using the same parts bin, it's down to the back up line.

Thankfully we have a watchmaker to sort out the minor problems (which most will be) with any watches we buy from him.

These days we need to ask "are we just paying for the name on the dial" when so many companies use "stock" parts to make watches. It's been said before, but tell me what you think. You are the customer.

I don't have a problem with assembled watches, this has been done for years and many were outstanding.

Just my VHO.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

Another note on warranty issues :

Many manufacturers ,be it watches or washing machines, have contracts with third party repairers. I have and do help some watch companies out with warranty repairs. Have a look at some of your guarantees and you will see that faulty items hardly ever go back to the manufacturer for repair.

If you send a watch to a service centre in many cases it will be repaired under warranty by someone like me. This system is used by many companies selling watches for many thousands of pounds.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Roy,

It's the same with cameras.

Not that I know anything about them.


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## julian (Jun 3, 2003)

I bought a used O&W diver .The bezell insert dropped out without impact .I think it was due to vibration caused by my tractor mounted hedge cutter which I was driving .Could not find the insert but I had Mr. Wajs' Email address .I contacted him and within a week I'd received via Roy a new insert totally free of charge .No questions about the age of the watch , no aggro etc. Just plain (old fashioned?) friendly service .When I can afford it I'd like the one with the arabic luminous numerals and 60 min. bezell .Must keep watching Watch Bay.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Recieved my first O&W this morning; the new 46mm "Pilot". Very pleased with it, well finished and excellent value for money. I can't see what all the fuss is about.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2004)

Roy said:


> Don't know which came first Griff but they all buy the cases, dials etc from the same places in Switzerland.
> 
> I understand that Sinn are a very young company and have not been around very long.


I'll just clear up a few misconceptions.

Sinn are not a very young firm, they were started by Helmut Sinn the famous German aviator in 1961.

They are a German company with their HQ in Frankfurt.

In 1994 they were taken over by Lothar Schmidt of IWC.

They do not use generic Swiss cases in fact their cases are specially made by SUG and signed between the lugs. Foggy told me what this stood for but I've forgotten.









A lot of their cases use some sort of ice technology to make them super hard as far as I can make out from the catalogue (in German)

They have pioneered new watch technologies with their Argon gas and oil filled watches which are apparently used by German special forces. Foggy will know more about that than me.

They give a two year all in warranty with repairs being sent back to the factory.

I have been trying to wade through their catalogue which is all in German to translate some of the more technical details but its taking me ages.


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## AndyF (Jul 3, 2003)

Neil. This may be of some help:-

sinn catalogue in english


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2004)

Thanks Andy

Very enlightening

Its easier than trying to translate my book I have here.









Further to the O & W debate going on at the moment, I would just like to add that I have only owned one model, the Kartago but found it very well made and unbeatable pricing at Â£150 for a Swiss divers watch.


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## JayGee (Feb 26, 2003)

Stan said:


> These days we need to ask "are we just paying for the name on the dial" when so many companies use "stock" parts to make watches. It's been said before, but tell me what you think. You are the customer.


In the case of O&W the great thing seems to be that you're *not* paying for the name!

On the basis of my RLT customised M-whatever-it-is mongrel they actually seem to be unfeasibly well put together and nicely finished for the price and I'm sure their generic ETA movements are no different to anybody elses...


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Agree!!


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## Fred (Feb 23, 2003)

I have the Kartago,and find it a nice watch to wear, keeps good time and well made.


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## Garry (Feb 25, 2003)

I've got an M4 diver and I am very pleased with it - no problems.

Superb value and I don't think you pay for the name in any respect, just a very well made quality watch. I don't think you can go wrong with O & W...........


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## Garry (Feb 25, 2003)

BTW,

Hello Neil, how are you.....??


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2004)

Fine Garry, thanks for asking.

Hope you and yours are keeping well.


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## DavidH (Feb 24, 2003)

Who in their right mind would put good money into one of these things?


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

Only you David.............. and several thousand others.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Nice bracelet!


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## DavidH (Feb 24, 2003)

Thousands?

And there was me thinking I am some boy with this practically unheard of watch


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

I mean't thousands of O&W's.


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## DLG (Jan 25, 2004)

Received an O&W M4 a few days ago from an internet dealer.

No problems with quality that I could see. And if there were, its would be back to the dealer, whom I and it seems many others trust.

Dave...


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Some people, IMHO, just wont accept that O & W are every bit as good as Sinn, and in the case of the Mirage 111 of equal quality and far better value for money.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2004)

Griff said:


> Some people, IMHO, just wont accept that O & W are every bit as good as Sinn, and in the case of the Mirage 111 of equal quality and far better value for money.


Really I think you can only make an observation like that if you have owned both makes.

I have, have you?









If not, obviously anything you say is just conjecture.

BTW I stand by what I said earlier in the thread, O & W watches are unbeatable value for money for a Swiss watch.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Yes, and I too have owned, and examined many makes of watch, including several of friends, relations, and colleagues; and feel old enough, mature enough, experienced enough, of sufficient IQ, educated enough, technical enough, and informed enough, to pass my opinion; AND, don't give a rats ass if that is viewed as conjecture by any other individual.

I know a good quality Swiss watch when I see one, and when the extra cost in a similar one is nothing more than extra for the name.

Thankyou, and you take care, and have a nice day!!


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

I have personally owned a Sinn diver and an O&W diver. The Sinn diver was sold after less than two weeks as it was not for me I still have the O&W after two years.


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## Garry (Feb 25, 2003)

I've never owned or seen a Sinn in the flesh, so can't comment. But, O & W must be pretty much the best value Swiss divers ever.

My M4 has been swum in numerous times, knocked, bashed and recieved a bit of a hard time and keeps on going. It will remain on the " keep " list.


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2004)

Griff said:


> Yes, and I too have owned, and examined many makes of watch, including several of friends, relations, and colleagues; and feel old enough, mature enough, experienced enough, of sufficient IQ, educated enough, technical enough, and informed enough, to pass my opinion; AND, don't give a rats ass if that is viewed as conjecture by any other individual.
> 
> I know a good quality Swiss watch when I see one, and when the extra cost in a similar one is nothing more than extra for the name.
> 
> Thankyou, and you take care, and have a nice day!!


Thanks Griff I am having a nice day.









Two small points.

Sinn is German and not Swiss.

By judicious buying my brand new 356 UTC was actually cheaper than the Mirage.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Maybe the source was a pillow case then!!!


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2004)

I wish!


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