# TKmax Glycine Combat



## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

anybody on here buy a Glycine combat from TKmax a couple of months back, apparently they had a really good discount, but may be worth checking to see if its got an ETA or clone inside

see this

http://xflive.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/103738-clone-eta-2824-2/&do=embed&embedComment=1073543&embedDo=findComment#comment-1073543


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

i have had a reply from Glycine...note the use of the word "most"

Dear Bruce

We are very sorry for the trouble you have with your Glycine watch.

Our watches have serial numbers and most of the movements are from ETA.

Can you send us a picture of your watch - so it might be easier to define.

Thanks and regards

Nicole

Nicole Lack

GLYCINE WATCH SA

Ring 18

2502 Biel/Bienne, Switzerland

credit where its due though the got in contact quickly

i have replied with serial numbers and they are looking into it, i suspect this is going to turn out to be some sort of deal with TKmax or maybe a budget range


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

Isn't Glycine now owned/part-owned by a Chinese company? Was it a TK Maxx Combat you were given to work on Bruce?


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

How pathetic. This is something you usually hear (especially here in Romania and in countries with lesser economies) about such things where they sell an "identical" product but the insides are slightly of a lower quality and the price is just slightly lower, sometimes.

You see it in IT&C and Electronics but I would have never thought that it can happen in watches from a popular brand.

This is a practice that I've heard of before where they release watches with a lesser quality movement so that they can apply a lower price, and perhaps, they're destined for poorer markets but I would have never thought that Glycine can do this. Shame! I've seen watches that had high quality japanese movements and also lower quality non-japanese miyotas but going from an ETA to a clone...

Supposedly some Swiss guy and his company bought Glycine in 2011 but not sure if this is the whole story. I don't know who they are but it turns out they've dealt a lot with the Chinese so...

http://www.glycinewatches.nl/3/nieuws/160/altus-uhren-holding-ag-takes-over-glycine


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> Isn't Glycine now owned/part-owned by a Chinese company? Was it a TK Maxx Combat you were given to work on Bruce?


 it was yes, i am thinking they know :wink:



gimli said:


> How pathetic. This is something you usually hear (especially here in Romania and in countries with lesser economies) about such things where they sell an "identical" product but the insides are slightly of a lower quality and the price is just slightly lower, sometimes.
> 
> You see it in IT&C and Electronics but I would have never thought that it can happen in watches from a popular brand.
> 
> ...


 too soon to judge gimli, but ....................it makes you wonder and not good for public image if its true


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## RTM Boy (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Always reminds me of the watches on sale in Stanley Market (Hong Kong island) where the vendors with 'Rolexes' on display used to say "genuine, genuine", by which they meant genuine Seiko quartz inside... :yes: :wacko:


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## WRENCH (Jun 20, 2016)

Bruce said:


> anybody on here buy a Glycine combat from TKmax a couple of months back, apparently they had a really good discount, but may be worth checking to see if its got an ETA or clone inside
> 
> see this
> 
> http://xflive.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/103738-clone-eta-2824-2/&do=embed&embedComment=1073543&embedDo=findComment#comment-1073543


 Very interesting. I have worked on a lot of Chinese clone power units where all parts are interchangeable with their Japanese/European counterparts. Where they fall down is on the quality of their metallurgy, and machine tolerances. I wonder if the watch movements suffer the same.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

i dont have a problem with clones, the trouble is most are described as exact copies with interchangeable parts, they are not............the one i have here has a damaged balance staff, so i tried to fit a brand new ETA balance assembly but the ETA staff is too long and the balance just locks up when you try to fit it........so not compatible at all :thumbdown:


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

There was a bit of a feeding frenzy for the TK Maxx Combat (6 or 7?) when they first appeared and I can't remember if the web page advertised them as Swiss movement? I'll find out but it would be a bit sneaky of Glycine if they hadn't clearly stated it wasn't a Swiss movement.

If it was a TK Maxx one, why didn't the owner return it under warranty? He might never have found out, which is scary.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> There was a bit of a feeding frenzy for the TK Maxx Combat (6 or 7?) when they first appeared and I can't remember if the web page advertised them as Swiss movement? I'll find out but it would be a bit sneaky of Glycine if they hadn't clearly stated it wasn't a Swiss movement.
> 
> If it was a TK Maxx one, why didn't the owner return it under warranty? He might never have found out, which is scary.


 its the 2nd owner Since new in march and it was dropped and damaged so screwed both ways


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

Bruce said:


> anybody on here buy a Glycine combat from TKmax a couple of months back, apparently they had a really good discount, but may be worth checking to see if its got an ETA or clone inside
> 
> see this
> 
> http://xflive.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/103738-clone-eta-2824-2/&do=embed&embedComment=1073543&embedDo=findComment#comment-1073543


 They do say Bruce that `a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' and you have more than a little knowledge. I wonder if someone at Glycine is thinking `Oh bugger - just out luck to sell one to someone with a bit of knowledge'.

The thing is - how many people who bought one of these would have had any idea what movement should have been inside? Until I read some of your posts I had no idea that some `expensive' watches would have cheap movements,

Just for fun I looked up Rolex movements and was surprised at how many are listed. Then I found a review of the 16610 against the 116610 and it all seemed to be about the type of bezel, bracelet and crown size rather than any difference in the movement - maybe explains why the list of movements did not include the 116610 :laugh:

It will be interesting to see the final reply from Glycine.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

richy176 said:


> They do say Bruce that `a little knowledge is a dangerous thing' and you have more than a little knowledge. I wonder if someone at Glycine is thinking `Oh bugger - just out luck to sell one to someone with a bit of knowledge'.
> 
> The thing is - how many people who bought one of these would have had any idea what movement should have been inside? Until I read some of your posts I had no idea that some `expensive' watches would have cheap movements,
> 
> ...


 "The thing is - how many people who bought one of these would have had any idea what movement should have been inside"

thats my point exactly, even with a display back which this watch has you wouldn't see any numbers, the only thing of any difference to see is the anti shock above the balance wheel, it is quite different from an ETA and also small so hard to spot


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## Craftycockney (Nov 5, 2015)

I'm sure if it states 'swiss made'. Theb the movement has to be swiss as the bare minimum.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

Craftycockney said:


> I'm sure if it states 'swiss made'. Theb the movement has to be swiss as the bare minimum.


 the dial certainly states "Swiss Made"


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## Craftycockney (Nov 5, 2015)

From the criteria I have read up on the build of 'swiss made' watch, it has to be 57.1% Swiss and rest can be made from external components such as case, dial, glass, hands etc.

So I would be suprised if the movement turns out to be anything other than ETA.


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

Swiss Made means 50% made in Switzerland. Starting as of 2017 they will be changing it to 60% (thank god, it's a start...).

According the official website of the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry (FH) , a watch is considered Swiss, according to Swiss law if, 1) its movement is Swiss and, 2) its movement is cased up in Switzerland and; 3) the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland.

A watch movement is considered Swiss if 1) the movement has been assembled in Switzerland and 2) the movement has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland and 3) the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

Craftycockney said:


> From the criteria I have read up on the build of 'swiss made' watch, it has to be 57.1% Swiss and rest can be made from external components such as case, dial, glass, hands etc.
> 
> So I would be suprised if the movement turns out to be anything other than ETA.


 you must be surprised then because its an Asian clone without doubt :yes:


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## Andern (Oct 28, 2015)

if it sounds too good to be true...

very sneaky if this is the case as i bet the gulf in prices for the movement's are substantial


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## PhilipK (Sep 23, 2011)

I have a Combat 7 that was first sold in 2012.

It looks identical to the Combat 7's that T K Maxx was selling except that it does not have a Glycine logo above the word "Glycine" on the dial, whereas the T K Maxx watches do have the logo. Does anybody know when that changed - or even if the presence/absence of the logo indicates which movement is inside?

Mine has a display back - is there any easy way (for somebody who doesn't really know his way around watch movements!) that I can tell whether it has an ETA inside?


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

Andern said:


> if it sounds too good to be true...
> 
> very sneaky if this is the case as i bet the gulf in prices for the movement's are substantial


 a proper eta 2824-2 will cost you £200 a clone around £60, but thats retail so the numbers change considerably for wholesale prices.......the clones will still be vastly cheaper though.

strangely though the numbers work, the watch cost about £250 from TKmax, if it had an ETA it would add £200, the Glycine Combat sells for about £450 with [ i assume ] a gen ETA



PhilipK said:


> I have a Combat 7 that was first sold in 2012.
> 
> It looks identical to the Combat 7's that T K Maxx was selling except that it does not have a Glycine logo above the word "Glycine" on the dial, whereas the T K Maxx watches do have the logo. Does anybody know when that changed - or even if the presence/absence of the logo indicates which movement is inside?
> 
> Mine has a display back - is there any easy way (for somebody who doesn't really know his way around watch movements!) that I can tell whether it has an ETA inside?


 without taking the back off, the top balance jewel anti shock has quite a specific look also if you have a loupe you can see the movement numbers below the balance wheel, it would be hard to see from a photo ........see if you can post a pic...Phil


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## minkle (Mar 17, 2008)

Its going to be an ETA or a Sellita, both swiss made, both pretty much the same. I'll be very surprised if it is a chinese clone.


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

minkle said:


> Its going to be an ETA or a Sellita, both swiss made, both pretty much the same. I'll be very surprised if it is a chinese clone.


 With no markings? I had a Oris with a Sellita SW200 movement (2824-2 clone) and it was decent quality and marked up as such. This doesn't seem to share that.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

minkle said:


> Its going to be an ETA or a Sellita, both swiss made, both pretty much the same. I'll be very surprised if it is a chinese clone.


 its a clone...seriously....no markings at all anywhere, genuine eta 2824-2 balance assembly doesnt fit, the staff is too long......i know i tried this afternoon :yes:

Glycine use the designation GL224 for the 2824-4....i wonder if this is a sneaky work around


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## PhilipK (Sep 23, 2011)

OK - some quick and dirty photographs:


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

PhilipK said:


> OK - some quick and dirty photographs:


 you have shown every part apart from the balance :biggrin: on the last pic if the rotor was at the bottom it would be perfect


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

Just a thought Bruce, but another Swiss alternative is the Soprod A10, this is apparently quite different in detail to the ETA stuff. Could the one you saw perhaps be one of those? That said, those I have seen are marked A10 quite prominently under the balance so probably not.


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## PhilipK (Sep 23, 2011)

Told you I know next to nothing about the movements in my watches :bash:


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

PhilipK said:


> Told you I know next to nothing about the movements in my watches :bash:


 yours is real, the anti shock is right and there is a hint at numbers just above the balance wheel

this is what is in my possession .the anti shock is wrong for an eta










and no numbers or anything else on the movement












Padders said:


> Just a thought Bruce, but another Swiss alternative is the Soprod A10, this is apparently quite different in detail to the ETA stuff. Could the one you saw perhaps be one of those? That said, those I have seen are marked A10 quite prominently under the balance so probably not.


 not an A10, they are quite distinct looking

how it should look, check out the id numbers and logo


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## PhilipK (Sep 23, 2011)

Thank you very much!

With the help of a torch and a loupe, the numbers are "V8AM4" "2824-2" "VZ" "ETA", so I guess that shows that mine has an ETA 2824-2 inside.

I still wonder whether there's any correlation between having a Glycine logo on the dial and having the non-ETA movement inside?


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

Don't forget there are 2 distinct anti-shock jewel systems on 2824s, the Incabloc and Etachoc (Incabloc on the higher end) but even so, I think you are right and that this one is dodgy


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

PhilipK said:


> Thank you very much!
> 
> With the help of a torch and a loupe, the numbers are "V8AM4" "2824-2" "VZ" "ETA", so I guess that shows that mine has an ETA 2824-2 inside.
> 
> I still wonder whether there's any correlation between having a Glycine logo on the dial and having the non-ETA movement inside?


 you can breathe now :biggrin: ........this one has the logo too :wacko:



Padders said:


> Don't forget there are 2 distinct anti-shock jewel systems on 2824s, the Incabloc and Etachoc (Incabloc on the higher end) but even so, I think you are right and that this one is dodgy


 its all very odd, i am looking forward to hear from Glycine, what happens if they say yes its a clone and we knew about it? but it could just be the first albeit short term owner is just a dodgy git


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## Craftycockney (Nov 5, 2015)

Bruce said:


> you must be surprised then because its an Asian clone without doubt :yes:


 That is a f*****g piss take Bruce!!. I would certainly be having words with Glycine if that is the case. Unbelievable. Even as it says 'swiss made'. My name 1st thought was these were just old stock being sold on to TK MAXX as pretty much everything else they sell. Wow I'm in shock.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

Craftycockney said:


> That is a f*****g piss take Bruce!!. I would certainly be having words with Glycine if that is the case. Unbelievable. Even as it says 'swiss made'. My name 1st thought was these were just old stock being sold on to TK MAXX as pretty much everything else they sell. Wow I'm in shock.


 i am discussing it with them, i got an email from them this afternoon asking for photos and serial numbers..........i have tried to find photos online that give a clear view of the combat model movement, i have found one where there is no movement id the rest are angled in such a way as you cant see, but their other models with different movements are clear and easy to read, problem is if they come back to me and say they dont know anything about it then others would need to check their watches and step up............but as i said earlier it could be the first owner that swapped it out, but i cant see it........we will see tomorrow though...maybe :wink:

the only one i could find angles right, i cant see any id marks at all and you should be able to see something to the bottom right of the balance wheel


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

Looking at PhillipK's and looking at yours Bruce, you can tell just from the engraving on the rotor that yours is a copy.

I think your man has been sold a dud and I suspect the TK Maxx versions are ok. Maybe they didn't pass Glycine QC control for whatever reason?

Here's mine from a few years ago:


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> Looking at PhillipK's and looking at yours Bruce, you can tell just from the engraving on the rotor that yours is a copy.
> 
> I think your man has been sold a dud and I suspect the TK Maxx versions are ok. Maybe they didn't pass Glycine QC control for whatever reason?
> 
> Here's mine from a few years ago:


 yes you can see the ETA shield and the numbers, looks identical but the case back has a different model number, i cant find any glycine fakes online anywhere apart from some vintage airman fakes being talked about


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

heres another thing, this is the official Glycine photo of the watch in question including the brown dial, all their dark dialed watches have white on black date wheels, the one with me has black on white

the dial is without doubt genuine, it identical in every way bar the date wheel


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Bruce said:


> heres another thing, this is the official Glycine photo of the watch in question including the brown dial, all their dark dialed watches have white on black date wheels, the one with me has black on white
> 
> the dial is without doubt genuine, it identical in every way bar the date wheel


 A possible Franken?

That takes us back to the original purchaser, I suspect?


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2016)

Stan said:


> A possible Franken?
> 
> That takes us back to the original purchaser, I suspect?


 quite possibly Stan, it was bought in March of this year and the original buyer didnt keep it long, but i cant help thinking its as made though, maybe its just the movement plate thats a clone and the rest is all swiss so meets the % to call it swiss ?? just guessing now :yes:


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Bruce said:


> quite possibly Stan, it was bought in March of this year and the original buyer didnt keep it long, but i cant help thinking its as made though, maybe its just the movement plate thats a clone and the rest is all swiss so meets the % to call it swiss ?? just guessing now :yes:


 Let's see what Glycine says, before casting stones. Assuming Glycine values its reputation. :wink:

I have a feeling it does.


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## Qtronic (Jan 8, 2016)

Stan said:


> Let's see what Glycine says, before casting stones. Assuming Glycine values its reputation. :wink:
> 
> I have a feeling it does.


 I agree there with Stan, as it is possible it has been swapped at some point!

Good job Bruce 

Q.


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## andyclient (Aug 1, 2009)

Qtronic said:


> I agree there with Stan, as it is possible it has been swapped at some point!
> 
> Good job Bruce
> 
> Q.


 Could be a way for the unscrupulous to get a genuine 2824-2 movement for the price of a chinese clone if you know what I mean


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2016)

andyclient said:


> Could be a way for the unscrupulous to get a genuine 2824-2 movement for the price of a chinese clone if you know what I mean


 absolutely possible unfortunately, i think he is contactable :yes: regardless i feel sorry for the current owner .....its just crap :thumbdown:


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## Jeremy Fisher (Jan 28, 2012)

I think the confusion is over the fact that Glycine had/has been using ETA and Sellita movements interchangeably for a while.

Companies who fall into in between small and medium size, who aren't big enough to get special treatment but have a large enough output to feel the burn from restricted supply have had problems getting consistent supply of workhorse movements from ETA. Most of these companies have either switched to Sellita completely or use a mix of ETA and Sellita movements to make up the gap in supply.

Whilst most of them state which movement is in which model, a few like Glycine and Christopher Ward, used the ETA 2824 and the SW200 interchangeably in their watches and advertised particular models as having either ETA or Selitta (leaving it difficult to know which is in the watch based on model number alone).

More recently they have renamed all their movements to be "Glycine" calibers so don't know what is going on now.

To complicate it even further, some companies have taken to buying Chinese ebauches and building and finishing the movements in Switzerland to make them "swiss made". Usually they switch out a few more expensive parts (e.g. add a glycodur balance and a incabloc spring) and add a fancier finish to reach the value thresholds to be "swiss made" (it used to be that it had to be assembled in Switzerland and 50% of total value and 50% of parts value comes from Swiss sources, I am not sure if this has changed or been raised). This is made easier by the fact that the Swiss parts are vastly more expensive than Chinese ones, and the labour component of assembling a movement is much higher in Switzerland than China. It is every easy to make up the value and value of parts thresholds by switching out only a few parts and adding a fancier finish.

A few examples:

Valanvron 24, a Swiss refinished Seagull ST2130:










Clarog Semag CL-888L, a Swiss refinished Seagull ST16, which is a clone of a Miyota movement. So its a Chinese copy of a Japanese movement being sold as "Swiss made":










Rotary also has a "Swiss" ST16/Miyota clone now, but they are very coy on who in Switzerland makes it for them, only calling it a "propitiatory Swiss movement", their "R.1000.21" :


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2016)

its all very cloak and dagger and bordering on dishonest IMO


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## Caller. (Dec 8, 2013)

Wow, this is fascinating stuff. Good work Bruce and Jeremy's post would make me reluctant to buy a cheaper 'Swiss' watch.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2016)

Caller said:


> Wow, this is fascinating stuff. Good work Bruce and Jeremy's post would make me reluctant to buy a cheaper 'Swiss' watch.


 from more digging i am coming to the conclusion that this is all about Swiss parts percentages and that the movement is quite probably majority swiss but only just, i dont think i will hear back from Glycine without pushing [ which i will ] but if they tell the truth they are screwed and the same if they lie........so silence may be their approach.....or i could be taliking crap :laugh:


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Do you currently have a full and traceable history of the watch, unless I've missed something so far you don't, then all you can do is surmise as to what the story is and that's it. Anything could have happened to it before you received it.


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## Qtronic (Jan 8, 2016)

This thread may reach the dailymail ...

*"Bruce uncovers the Swiss Watch Industry"*

If its true regarding *%* it should be *clear* to the customer, as present it is unclear and companies are pushing it to a limit in which they are going to loose custom long term rather than gain custom.

In all business there is a cut off point, bad reputation hits hard and fast. I doubt if Rolex or Omega are up too this, if the said company are, as stated the movement may have been swapped, but too be honest I think very few people would go to that bother ...

Q.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2016)

BondandBigM said:


> Do you currently have a full and traceable history of the watch, unless I've missed something so far you don't, then all you can do is surmise as to what the story is and that's it. Anything could have happened to it before you received it.


 it has a full and traceable history


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

Bruce said:


> it has a full and traceable history


 No offence Bruce but unless you bought it from TK Maxx yourself, no you don't. All you have is the supposition that the previous owner didn't swap the movement and it came from the factory like that. What if they did? To be honest this isn't quite the smoking gun until another without any 'interruptions' between TK Maxx and the person inspecting. This thread is now been picked up over on TZ and the suposition is that Glycine are naughty gits and sowing seed sod doubt in the minds of potential buyers. If I owned a Glycine right now (I don't) I would not be adding you to my Xmas card list. The weight of evidence says that that something has gone on here but it is just as likely that this watch is a Franken or fake sold to you in bad faith. And possibly to the previous seller too but we can't convict TK Maxx and Glycine on this one data point.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2016)

Padders said:


> No offence Bruce but unless you bought it from TK Maxx yourself, no you don't. All you have is the supposition that the previous owner didn't swap the movement and it came from the factory like that. What if they did? To be honest this isn't quite the smoking gun until another without any 'interruptions' between TK Maxx and the person inspecting. This thread is now been picked up over on TZ and the suposition is that Glycine are naughty gits and sowing seed sod doubt in the minds of potential buyers. If I owned a Glycine right now (I don't) I would not be adding you to my Xmas card list. The weight of evidence says that that something has gone on here but it is just as likely that this watch is a Franken or fake sold to you in bad faith. And possibly to the previous seller too but we can't convict TK Maxx and Glycine on this one data point.


 i dont own the watch and it is traceable from tkmax right to me, i dont know what has happened, at the moment nobody does, but to turn this into anything more than a curiosity at this stage is a bit off, i didnt take this to another forum so you can keep me out of that as i dont know nor do i want to know what has been said, at this stage all i want is to hear from Glycine, i have my opinion about whats going as is my right

at the moment its like chinese whispers......you have assumed i own the watch.had you read this thread and the other linked to it you would see its is clear i dont own it and i am actually just trying to help the owner by repairing it which i will continue to do

maybe it would be best to just lock this before Friday night scuffles start :wink:


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

Can we have a link or some sort of archive image to the original listing of the watch on that website ? Did they advertise it as a watch with "an automatic movement" or "a swiss automatic movement" ?


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## Krispy (Nov 7, 2010)

I'm guessing this is the watch?

I think this is the URL the watch was originally available on, can't find it in any archives though:

http://www.tkmaxx.com/mens-watches+cufflinks/black-classic-enduring-watch/invt/76114682

This is the image used to advertise it on their website:










And these are apparently a TK Maxx example on someone's wrist (stolen from elsewhere):



















They all have black date windows...?


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2016)

Padders said:


> No offence Bruce but unless you bought it from TK Maxx yourself, no you don't. All you have is the supposition that the previous owner didn't swap the movement and it came from the factory like that. What if they did? To be honest this isn't quite the smoking gun until another without any 'interruptions' between TK Maxx and the person inspecting. This thread is now been picked up over on TZ and the suposition is that Glycine are naughty gits and sowing seed sod doubt in the minds of potential buyers. If I owned a Glycine right now (I don't) I would not be adding you to my Xmas card list. The weight of evidence says that that something has gone on here but it is just as likely that this watch is a Franken or fake sold to you in bad faith. And possibly to the previous seller too but we can't convict TK Maxx and Glycine on this one data point.


 well curiosity got the best of me and they all seem to be having a perfectly reasonable discussion on TZ and even you commented Padders

Quote: Very possible indeed probable, bearing in mind the cost of either a ETA or Sellita movement which would be a big proportion of the £200. They really should have considered changing the dial to reflect this though so as not to mislead the buying public.

to save any trouble when i hear back from Glycine, i will let the watch owner know and if he wishes to make it public on here that will be his choice...........i`m out :thumbsup:


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

Bruce said:


> at the moment its like chinese whispers......you have assumed i own the watch.had you read this thread and the other linked to it you would see its is clear i dont own it and i am actually just trying to help the owner by repairing it which i will continue to do
> 
> maybe it would be best to just lock this before Friday night scuffles start :wink:


 I think it may the one making false assumptions here Bruce. I am fully aware that you don't own it and have followed this from the start. In fact I have contributed several times already so I am not sure where you can infer that I have jumped in uninformed. I don't suggest that you took this elsewhere but pointed out that it had leaked, virally elsewhere. Which it has.



Bruce said:


> well curiosity got the best of me and they all seem to be having a perfectly reasonable discussion on TZ and even you commented Padders
> 
> Quote: Very possible indeed probable, bearing in mind the cost of either a ETA or Sellita movement which would be a big proportion of the £200. They really should have considered changing the dial to reflect this though so as not to mislead the buying public.
> 
> to save any trouble when i hear back from Glycine, i will let the watch owner know and if he wishes to make it public on here that will be his choice...........i`m out :thumbsup:


 Absolutely, I trust your integrity and opinion to the hilt, hence my quote in support of you but my point above still stands that 1 data point doesn't convict Glycine, which is the inference by some. That was merely my point, not any slur on you.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2016)

likely that this watch is a Franken or fake sold to you in bad faith. And possibly to the previous seller too but we can't convict TK Maxx and Glycine on this one data point.

i am going on the above where you say "sold to you in bad faith" that is not a false assumption, you made a post hinting at trouble on another forum and it all seems perfectly calm which is more that i can say for here......

i dont get you interest in this, you dont own a glycine you say..... whats the purpose behind your post ?


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

Yep sold to you was a mistake on my part amongst a long text which I fully retract. I am not sure why you are suggesting I have an agenda regarding my point. I stated that I don't own one and that is the case. Why you would call me a liar bewilders me to be frank. Read what I said minus the error regarding ownership. I was merely trying to point out that OTHERS are suggesting dishonesty on the part of the manufacturer which may not be proven.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2016)

Padders said:


> Yep sold to you was a mistake on my part amongst a long text which I fully retract. I am not sure why you are suggesting I have an agenda regarding my point. I stated that I don't own one and that is the case. Why you would call me a liar bewilders me to be frank. Read what I said minus the error regarding ownership. I was merely trying to point out that OTHERS are suggesting dishonesty on the part of the manufacturer which may not be proven.


 is this a wind up? where and when did i call you a liar? :laugh:


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## Krispy (Nov 7, 2010)

My apologies, I appear to have dug out the wrong watch in my previous post.

I hope the owner does update this thread with whatever the outcome is as I would genuinely like to know what's happened. I'm quite a Glycine fan and would be disappointed if they were up to any shenanigans. This thread seems to have spawned others in at least 2 other forums, one in a Glycine manufacturers section too.

I've been on the side of the watch in question being a franken and that some unscrupulous type has had the original movement away - although that doesn't explain the Glycine engraved rotor (unless this is interchangeable and has been swapped too?).

Here's a TK Maxx version that was sold on another forum. I can't access the attachments but, with a bit of zooming, it does look like it has a white date window.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/glycine-combat-6-automatic-watch.2028621/

But here's a black dialed version on this forum with a black date window:

http://xflive.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/102785-t-k-maxx/&do=embed

And here's a black dialed one on sale in March 16 elsewhere and described as having an ETA movement but with a white date window:



















All very strange...


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

this one you should be able to see the ETA shield










like this


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## Jeremy Fisher (Jan 28, 2012)

I don't think price of the movement is as significant an issue. An basic grade eta is around £150-200 if you or I purchase it, but at wholesale its a different matter, especially where the purchaser has some degree of economy of scale (I think glycine qualifies. Some automatic lower entry level watches with 2824 retail for around £300 (Tissot, Certina, Cheaper, older model Hamiltons etc.) and you can get them for £200 on the grey market easily. Again, I think the big mystery is whether it is a Sellita movement or the slightly more preferable - at least form a resale perspective - ETA movement.

Furthermore, TK Maxx buys all its product at rock bottom clearance prices. With higher end watches, that usually means models which are discontinued and/or dropped from chain retailers' catalogues which would cost the retailer less to sell off at a loss than keep in stock. This means that TK Maxx can often undercut RRP beyond what would be profitable for the manufacturer or an official retailer. You also get a lot of slight seconds which were rejected for minor imperfections at quality control. In my experience, generally and not just with watches, the best stuff at TK Maxx tend to be seconds.


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## Krispy (Nov 7, 2010)

I thought a Sellita had been ruled out as it would be expected to have some kind of marking under the balance wheel?



















Whereas a Seagull clone doesn't...


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

Jeremy Fisher said:


> I don't think price of the movement is as significant an issue. An basic grade eta is around £150-200 if you or I purchase it, but at wholesale its a different matter, especially where the purchaser has some degree of economy of scale (I think glycine qualifies. Some automatic lower entry level watches with 2824 retail for around £300 (Tissot, Certina, Cheaper, older model Hamiltons etc.) and you can get them for £200 on the grey market easily. Again, I think the big mystery is whether it is a Sellita movement or the slightly more preferable - at least form a resale perspective - ETA movement.
> 
> Furthermore, TK Maxx buys all its product at rock bottom clearance prices. With higher end watches, that usually means models which are discontinued and/or dropped from chain retailers' catalogues which would cost the retailer less to sell off at a loss than keep in stock. This means that TK Maxx can often undercut RRP beyond what would be profitable for the manufacturer or an official retailer. You also get a lot of slight seconds which were rejected for minor imperfections at quality control. In my experience, generally and not just with watches, the best stuff at TK Maxx tend to be seconds.


 i agree with this, but a clone would be even cheaper again or a movement made up from clone parts and ETA parts would be very cheap i would imagine, its not a Sellita though as they are well marked


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## Jeremy Fisher (Jan 28, 2012)

Ah sorry, skipped a few posts. I still don't think its a clone or a fake. Glycine is a fairly well known and well established brand and has always used ETA or Sellita movements, it tends to be the budget or "Micro" brands who tend to go down the Swiss-Chinese route. TK Maxx buys directly from major retailers and factories, so should be a proper Glycine watch.

Looking at the photos, its clear that the movement is definitely a more basic grade 2824, with some added decoration: it has the etachoc "three leaf clover" shock spring instead of incabloc found in elabore and higher grades: (handy comparison pic found online)










It also has nivarox's "basic" balance wheel rather than the "fancier" glucydur (the shape is a giveaway), so looks like the "standard" grade 2824. The ST2130s (closest/best/most common 2824 clone) generally tends to have the same shaped shock spring as the etachoc but a lot more decorations than the standard grade 2824 (whereas with a 2824, you generally only have the fancy decorations with setups including the incabloc spring) and Seagull uses the glucydur's shape for all their balance wheels, so you generally get a more distinct movement compared to the authentic 2824s.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

Jeremy Fisher said:


> Ah sorry, skipped a few posts. I still don't think its a clone or a fake. Glycine is a fairly well known and well established brand and has always used ETA or Sellita movements, it tends to be the budget or "Micro" brands who tend to go down the Swiss-Chinese route. TK Maxx buys directly from major retailers and factories, so should be a proper Glycine watch.
> 
> Looking at the photos, its clear that the movement is definitely a more basic grade 2824, with some added decoration: it has the etachoc "three leaf clover" shock spring instead of incabloc found in elabore and higher grades: (handy comparison pic found online)
> 
> ...


 so are you saying ETA 2824-2's of any grade are supplied unmarked? as far as i am aware all are marked there are now 3 Glycine movements showing on this thread with no markings........show an image of a Known genuine ETA 2824-2 with no markings :watch:


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## Jeremy Fisher (Jan 28, 2012)

Its hard to see the eta shield whilst the display back is on. Most display backs are designed to cover the movement holder from view and covers the mark slightly when you look at it. You have to view it at an angle (and ideally in very good light) for it to be properly visible. Just an example I am certain off, an older ETA era Oris with a (pic taken off the web, too lazy to take a pic of my Oris):










As you can see, like with the Glycine, the mark is largely shield from view, and that is clearly also the case with the Glycine. You really have to open it up for it to be obvious.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

Jeremy Fisher said:


> Its hard to see the eta shield whilst the display back is on. Most display backs are designed to cover the movement holder from view and covers the mark slightly when you look at it. You have to view it at an angle (and ideally in very good light) for it to be properly visible. Just an example I am certain off, an older ETA era Oris with a (pic taken off the web, too lazy to take a pic of my Oris):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 sorry but i think you are wrong

no eta shield......you can see it if its there










with...........


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

Jeremy Fisher said:


> Its hard to see the eta shield whilst the display back is on. Most display backs are designed to cover the movement holder from view and covers the mark slightly when you look at it. You have to view it at an angle (and ideally in very good light) for it to be properly visible. Just an example I am certain off, an older ETA era Oris with a (pic taken off the web, too lazy to take a pic of my Oris):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 That is actually a Sellita SW200-1 Jeremy, the give away is the 26th jewel. Oris call it the 733 as seen in the markings under the rotor. 2824-2s top out at 25 jewels. Here is the data sheet:

http://www.oris.ch/en/movements/733


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## Jeremy Fisher (Jan 28, 2012)

I can understand your disbelief but the stamp really is very difficult to spot, even in real life. You have to see it in the flesh with a 2824 movement but I have tried to capture it with a few photos (my bad with the photo off the web, the quality of my photos will explain best why I chose to find a generic picture off the internet instead):

Oris 644, based on the ETA 2836-2 Movement. As you can see, again the stamp is not visible.










This high-zoom picture (or whatever the correct photography term is) with flash set to bright reveals the stamp, and also how lightly etched it is.










The same thing, but with a Hamilton photo I nicked off the web (will 100% be an ETA...)


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

i can see it ............


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## Jeremy Fisher (Jan 28, 2012)

Also, not sure if you can tell with the shitty quality of my photos, but the 644 is a 27 jewelled movement, the 2836 is a 25 jewel. Oris is one of the few companies left at the mid range who still modify ebauches, quite extensively, so many of the Oris calibres have different jewel counts compared to their "parent" movements. They are one of the few brands who actually do enough significant modification to deserve a rename of their movements.


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

I thought TK Maxx only offered a 'PVD' case version of the watch but the one Bruce has is clearly polished, like many of the other Glycine Combats.

My feeling on this is that there has been some nefarious fettling with the movement. I just don't believe Glycine would use Chinese clone movements. At least that's what I keep telling myself as an avid Glycine fan


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

it'salivejim said:


> I thought TK Maxx only offered a 'PVD' case version of the watch but the one Bruce has is clearly polished, like many of the other Glycine Combats.
> 
> My feeling on this is that there has been some nefarious fettling with the movement. I just don't believe Glycine would use Chinese clone movements. At least that's what I keep telling myself as an avid Glycine fan
> 
> ...


 As they say

"there's a rabbit off somewhere"

:laugh: :laugh:


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

Look at it this way, if you pulled apart a Parnis and found an ETA movement would you assume:

a) All Parnis watch actually sneakily use Swiss movements rather than the Seagull one you expected.

b) someone had messed about with it.

One swallow does not a summer make.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> I thought TK Maxx only offered a 'PVD' case version of the watch but the one Bruce has is clearly polished, like many of the other Glycine Combats.
> 
> My feeling on this is that there has been some nefarious fettling with the movement. I just don't believe Glycine would use Chinese clone movements. At least that's what I keep telling myself as an avid Glycine fan
> 
> ...


 i hope you are right, but i have seen a couple now the same.............

sadly some are hoping its not true because they think i will fall on my face, but i have nothing invested in this so either way i dont really care

the only thing i care about is that the owner feels cheated and has a knackered watch which i will put right so anyone who thinks this will in some way make a fool of me or anyone else you may as well stop now.

little smart comments dont make a case either way it just shows a rather poor attitude


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

Bruce said:


> i hope you are right, but i have seen a couple now the same.............
> 
> sadly some are hoping its not true because they think i will fall on my face, but i have nothing invested in this so either way i dont really care
> 
> ...


 If that is aimed at me then please consider that I have never to my knowledge posted anything vaguely contradictory to you in the past so your comment seems a little paranoid to say the least. It may have been more polite to actually quote me rather than Jim of course. I can't see anything in this thread regarding you being the bad guy, simply a lot of head scratching about what has gone on. Just because someone looks at the stated facts and draws a different conclusion to you doesn't mean they are trying to impugn you or call you a fool. If you truly believe that is how the world works then I am not surprised you seem to fall out with the more opinionated posters on here. Disagreeing with you does not by definition show a poor attitude now does it?


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## it'salivejim (Jan 19, 2013)

Ok Bruce, I don't think anyone is hoping you fall on your face with this but it is an interesting topic, the most interesting that's been on here for a while, and I for one am looking forward to hearing what Glycine has to say.

Unfortunately, it doesn't help your owner as you can't fix the thing either way until you know what's going on with the movement. I hope it gets sorted for both of you :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

Padders said:


> If that is aimed at me then please consider that I have never to my knowledge posted anything vaguely contradictory to you in the past so your comment seems a little paranoid to say the least. I can't see anything in this thread regarding you being the bad guy, simply a lot of head scratching about what has gone on. Just because someone looks at the stated facts and draws a different conclusion to you doesn't mean they are trying to immune you or call you a fool. If you truly believe that is how the world works then I am not surprised you seem to fall out with the more opinionated posters on here. Disagreeing with you does not by definition show a poor attitude now does it?


 its not aimed at you i assure you, you have the wrong end of the stick


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

Bruce said:


> its not aimed at you i assure you, you have the wrong end of the stick


 Ah right. In which case I fully withdraw and also too hope that this gets sorted positively for all concerned. It has be be said, if there is truth in the suggestion that it and many more left TK Maxx like this then you really will have unearthed a scandal!


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

BondandBigM said:


> As they say
> 
> "there's a rabbit off somewhere"
> 
> :laugh: :laugh:


 Please clarify, that's not a phrase I'm familiar with. Therefore, I won't make assumptions. :wink:


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

it'salivejim said:


> Ok Bruce, I don't think anyone is hoping you fall on your face with this but it is an interesting topic, the most interesting that's been on here for a while, and I for one am looking forward to hearing what Glycine has to say.
> 
> Unfortunately, it doesn't help your owner as you can't fix the thing either way until you know what's going on with the movement. I hope it gets sorted for both of you :thumbsup:


 sorry i quoted you it wasn't aimed at you, like you i am interested, but i suspect there will be no more contact from Glycine unless its to categorically deny all knowledge of clone etc

to my way of thinking, if they admit it they may lose a few customers, but if they stay quiet????????


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

Padders said:


> Ah right. In which case I fully withdraw and also too hope that this gets sorted positively for all concerned. It has be be said, if there is truth in the suggestion that it and many more left TK Maxx like this then you really will have unearthed a scandal!


 i dont see at as much of a scandal if its true and they come clean, it was still a good quality cheap watch, i read something ages back on line last year maybe about manufacturers starting to use their own movement designation and there seems to be a lot more doing it, i think it was Rotary ? but i remember thinking at the time was this a move away from ETA to Asian movements?IE by calling an ETA 2824-2 a GL224 it blurs the lines just enough .....maybe ETA may have restricted movements to makers,but there must be Millions of parts out there so is it too much of a stretch that they or others buy asian parts and combine the 2 after all ETA have been doing for years. i will get no pleasure from this if its all true and will find it a bit sad as this could become common place if its not already


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Stan said:


> Please clarify, that's not a phrase I'm familiar with. Therefore, I won't make assumptions. :wink:


 You must of led a sheltered life if you've never heard that saying before.

So maybe you should try the fishing thread and throw your rod and line in there you might have more luck

:biggrin:


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

The scandal I refer to is in branding the dial 'Swiss made'. That is a no-no if the movement isn't remotely Swiss as discussed previously so there would be serious repercussions for the firm in Switzerland if this were shown to be the case that the movement is an Asian clone as the Swiss jealously guard their nomenclature.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

BondandBigM said:


> You must of led a sheltered life if you've never heard that saying before.
> 
> So maybe you should try the fishing thread and throw your rod and line in there you might have more luck
> 
> :biggrin:


 Thank you for making your intent known.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

Padders said:


> The scandal I refer to is in branding the dial 'Swiss made'. That is a no-no if the movement isn't remotely Swiss as discussed previously so there would be serious repercussions for the firm in Switzerland if this were shown to be the case that the movement is an Asian clone as the Swiss jealously guard their nomenclature.


 i am of the opinion the percentages of parts will be right to qualify, but the mistake was no markings.............purely guessing, but its the only thing that makes sense to me


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## PhilipK (Sep 23, 2011)

Krispy said:


> Here's a TK Maxx version that was sold on another forum. I can't access the attachments but, with a bit of zooming, it does look like it has a white date window.
> 
> https://www.avforums.com/threads/glycine-combat-6-automatic-watch.2028621/


 If it makes any difference, that watch (which does indeed have a white date wheel) is a Combat 6, whereas I have assumed that the rest of this thread has been talking about the Combat 7.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2016)

PhilipK said:


> If it makes any difference, that watch (which does indeed have a white date wheel) is a Combat 6, whereas I have assumed that the rest of this thread has been talking about the Combat 7.


 going by the reference number on the case its a combat 6 the thread is about


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