# English Pin Pallets



## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

As some may remember I have this slightly odd interest in old English made Pin-pallet watches which all use the same movement despite being `made` by different firms, it appears to be identical to the Kienzle 54/7 and a Swiss movement as well









I can`t really say why I like them but feel they do have a certain charm also I`m quite impressed that such a simple unjeweled movement keeps going after over 50 years especially as they were probably comparitively cheap even when new









Anyway another one arrived yesterday via ebay complete with it`s original box and guarantee dated 22/12/53


















*Aviation 1953, unjeweled Pin-pallet*










Unfortunately the photo doesn`t show that the chapter ring is copper









Before anyone starts, yes it does have a leather strap but due to the `pins` being part of the casing & therefore fixed it was obviously sewn on to the watch and is in good condition so though I don`t like leather staps, I`m not going to destroy one that appears to be the watch`s original 53 year old strap









I`ve been after an Aviation for some time but possibly due to sellers often describing them as 1930`s/40`s Pilots watches they get snapped up for to me slightly silly money









Maybe the seller saying it wasn`t working put people off I don`t know but I was pleased to win it for only Â£6.50









As I mentioned I`m familiar with this movement and within 5 minutes of it arriving it was ticking strongly,

mind you maybe fiddling with an old watch having just got up after my last in a set of 4 nights wasn`t the best plan, I managed to knock the minute hand off and the crystal feel out









I got that sorted and as I said the watch was running nicely with the very loud tick they all make, however I noticed after a few hours that it seemed to have lost 1/2 an hour









So I made a somewhat crude attempt at adjusting it (remember I was very tired) and left it for the night, amazingly when I got up this morning it was almost spot on and has kept good time since.









Something I was pleasently supprised to discover is the address of the Aviation Watch Co. is the same as the Services Watch Co. so obviously the same local Leicester firm









I`m certain the building is still standing so will take and post a photo for the forums Service owners









Here`s a group shot of my present collection...

*Stirling, Aviation, Newmark, Guldhall & another Newmark*










Other watches using the same movement I hope to get include Services, Horsham & Amdex, if anyone comes across any others let me know









BTW here`s 3 more I`m waiting for from the bay


















Don`t know what they are yet but I recognise the style and they were again cheap









sellers description...



> This auction is for 3 classic 1940's styled gents watches. The case on two of them are exceptionally good show virtually no wear marks. The watches all run but may need servicing as one of them stops


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

I forgot to mention, as it appears that the watch firms, such as Newmark & Services, just assembled the watches from bought in parts, any information on who made these movements, cases, dials & hands would be gratefully recieved









* Pin pallet unjeweled movements, note the left hand Newmark`s stamped `Made in England`*










*Typical `English` pin pallet case c1950`s*


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

Interesting.


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

An enlightening little feature Mac







.

I have an Aviation somewhere. I'll seek it out.

I like the "DO NOT return this watch to the retailer from whom it was purchased" order







.

I imagine that these watches were sold cheaply by non jewellery shops







.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Interesting post Mac









Nice to have the box and papers as well


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Thanks guys












raketakat said:


> An enlightening little feature Mac
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting point Ian about the possible outlets they were sold from as it would go along with my feeling that these watches were made and sold cheaply to supply a need in the cash strapped late 40`s early 50`s when rationing was still around and imports were severely restricted and subject to very high taxes









BTW I`d like to see your Aviation when you find it











JoT said:


> Interesting post Mac
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I must admit it was the fact that it came with them that swung it for me.









I wasn`t too bothered when the seller described it as not working, due to the movements simple & robust construction, as long as it wasn`t actually broken, I felt I might be able to get it going and if not, was sure I could find another movement which would be simple to swap over


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

I thought I might give some more info on the case`s they come in

Basically they are a very simple two piece design, the movement sits in, and is surrounded by, the bottom half and the top, which includes the fixed lugs, just presses on to it.

So far I`ve come across two types, one as fitted to my two tone Newmark and the Stirling (shown on the right in the photo), has a deeper top plate which has a cut out for the winding stem and encapsulates the movement.

The other, apparently more common type (shown on the left in the photo), has a much more basic and shallower top plate which presses onto the bottom case.










You`ll note that on the second type the lugs are very shallow and sit quite high whereas on the first type they curve down, more like `normal` lugs, this is more clearly shown in the photo below of my Guldhall with my two tone Newmark (on the right).










I don`t know but I suspect that the Newmark case style is older and the Guildhall type was developed to reduce costs.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

As I mentioned above on the `earlier` type case there was a cut out in both the top and bottom parts for the winding stem, this acts as an anchor holding the movement in the correct orientation in the case.

On the `later` style there is a small cut out in the bottom case into which a prong on the top plate is supposed to sit (see photo).










It`s easer to see on this close up....










Unfortunately the lug seems to be somewhat flimsy and has worn down on the examples of this type case I have ( see photo)










This seems to be a common problem as I`ve seen quite a few of these watches on Ebay similar to this..










The sellers usually claim that the dial & winder being angled is part of the design









It`s not really a problem, you just have to make sure you line up the movement by sight.

Another point is it seeems to me the earlier case would offer better dust proofing as it as I mentioned before encapsulates the movement unlike the later type.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

BTW I mentioned in my first post that I`d managed to knock out the Aviation`s crystal
















I did pop it back in but it`s loose, any suggestions on how I can `fix` it?


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

Here you are Mac. Sorry 'bout the pic







.

Surely these were boy's watches







? This one ticks when it wants to, which is not very often







.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

raketakat said:


> Here you are Mac. Sorry 'bout the pic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice looking watch Ian









What size is it?, mine are all 32mm excluding crown (which would be a mans size for the early `50`s) by 11mm deep









BTW I mentioned in my first post that the minute hand had fallen out on my Aviation while I was trying to get it going just after it arrived and that I`d put it back on, well I noticed that it wasn`t correctly positioned ie when the minute hand was at 12 the hour hand was bit out, well I was tired at the time









Anyway I took it off and repositioned it correctly, unfortunately now the watch, which had previously been keeping very good time looses approx 30 seconds a minute









I thought maybe I`d pushed the minute hand too far down and that it was dragging against the hour hand so have tried repositioning it a number of times with no joy, I may have to take it to a jewellers but last time I took one of these watches for a service they refused to saying it wasn`t worth doing


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

You wont believe this Mac, but I have a Aviation watch ( non runner







)

BUT......It has the same box and papers









BUT......The box is pink









PM me your address and Ill post it to you 

I do like a nice pink box........


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

jasonm said:


> You wont believe this Mac, but I have a Aviation watch ( non runner
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just noticed your reply Jase, thanks, PM being sent


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

whomever got you started on these Mac????


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

pg tips said:


> whomever got you started on these Mac????


Nice one Paul









It`s not a Timex









You`ll just have to get rid of it























I`m sure you could find some half crazed weirdo to sell it to


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> What size is it?


I wish you wouldn't wouldn't ask me personal questions on forum







.

27mm excluding crown  .


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

raketakat said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> > What size is it?
> ...


Aahhh, it`s a little baby one


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> I may have to take it to a jewellers but last time I took one of these watches for a service they refused to saying it wasn`t worth doing


It depends whether you're willing to pay to have it done. I think a watchmaker would be hard pressed to put a guarantee on his/her ( PC







) work on these cranky things







.

That's what I like about you Mac. You're willing to fight for lost causes  .


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

raketakat said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> > I may have to take it to a jewellers but last time I took one of these watches for a service they refused to saying it wasn`t worth doing
> ...


It seems such a shame as it was keeping really good time, if only I`d not knocked the hand off in the first place


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Here`s 3 more I`m waiting for from the bay
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well they finally arrived this morning, and all going as well as one could hope







.....










The `Unamed` one on the left appears to have had little use and the `Mentor` appears to have never been used, the centre one has ` Marine & Overseas Services Ltd, London`( I wonder who they were?







) on the dial and `Newmark Made in England` on the case back.

The `Newmark` has lost it`s second hand and the dial is interesting with it`s outer number scale going up to 300, any ideas what this is for?









The movements (shown on the bottom row with 3 of my `English` ones for comparison) are all marked as being Swiss.










The left hand movement ( from the unamed watch) has a partial stamp with a circular styled `*E*` in a circle and `*BREV-DEP* (or *R*)

The centre movement is from the `Newmark` and has a`*Cal99*`stamp.

The `Mentor` movement is stamped as having `One Jewel`( BTW I have seen an identical Swiss movement stamped `5 Jewels`)

As you can see there are only minor differences between the `English` and Swiss movements and as I mentioned before the `Keinzle` 54/7 appears to be almost identical, I presume that the design is originally Swiss then licensed out, although I could be completetly wrong









BTW the `English` movements are L-R Guildhall, Stirling & Aviation









Already got my eye on a couple more on ebay


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

This oldie arrived from Jason, who had kindly donated it as I he saw my interest in Aviation watches









Love the `Macho` paratrooper box


















Mind you he did say it was pink
















*Aviation `No5` 1939*










What a strange box cover design for a ladies watch









Jase wasn`t sure if he should have removed the leather strap before sending the watch but it`s not as if I ever intend to wear it and the strap is possibly the original









BTW you may notice the seller was "*N.M.Brownlie, The Garage Alness*" I wonder if a young chap rushing to see his lady friend on her birthday, panicing because he hadn`t got her a present had popped in to fill up his cart then noticed the watches for sale









Even has the original price on the back....










So then children what is 5/6 in new money?









Anyway thanks Jase, it`s great


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## PhilM (Nov 5, 2004)

Thats top quality Mac







also well done Jason for being shuch a gent 

Including the leather strap also nice touch


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## Mothman (Oct 11, 2005)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> So then children what is 5/6 in new money?


27.1/2p at a guess?

Richard


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

PhilM said:


> Thats top quality Mac
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks Phil, it doesn`t work and is missing a hand but who cares









BTW I do wonder what Jason was doing with a `Ladies` watch

























Mothman said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> > So then children what is 5/6 in new money?
> ...


Sounds about right


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Glad you like it Mac









I cant remember where I got it from to be honest,

Im glad its gone to a good home.... 

Trust you to fill in your own story as to its origins









So have you tried to track down the original owner yet?


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

jasonm said:


> Glad you like it Mac
> 
> 
> 
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From what I have been able to find out so far the young chap`s first name was Guy and he apparently had something to do with dam demolition during the WWII


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> I forgot to mention, as it appears that the watch firms, such as Newmark & Services, just assembled the watches from bought in parts, any information on who made these movements, cases, dials & hands would be gratefully recieved
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very interesting, but it does make me winch seeing those pin pallet movements.

I remember the Timex's with these type of movements, and I never had one that kept good reliable time for very long. They'd always start to run slow after maybe 9 to 12 months wear, and I hated 'em

It was like going from black and white TV to colour when switching to a Swiss jewelled lever.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Due to certain on going commitments, I`m havng to cut back on my watch buying for the moment but I just couldn`t resist this which I won last night for less the a tenner inc postage









[attachmentid=5543]

(Sellers photo)

and their details....

*"Vintage Aviation Watch Boxed Guarantee 1960s? This great period watch looks to be in unused condition. The face is marked Aviation Made in England.It still has the original label which is marked 38/6, just under Â£2.00 so quite an expensive watch. The watch is in working order though I have not had the back off as I am no expert. The box has some rubbing to the front."*

It appears to be NOS and more likely early/mid `50`s


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> The box has some rubbing to the front.
> 
> It appears to be NOS and more likely early/mid `50`s


Who sold you my wife







?


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

raketakat said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> > The box has some rubbing to the front.
> ...


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Well it arrived this morning, by the mint condition of the watch case, leather strap (which was sewn onto the cast-in lugs when the watch was made) and the `Aviation` tag attached to the strap it would appear to be NOS, the unsigned guarantee sheet also seems to confirm this









Although there is no date I strongly expect it to be circa mid `50s at the latest, OK it`s nothing special but still it`s nice to own an unused 50 year old watch









Checking the Relative value in UK pounds  site shows that 38/6

(ie Â£1 18s 6d) from 1955 would be worth: Â£32.85 in 2004 using the retail price index









*Aviation `No.1`circa Mid `50`s, Made In England*

by the Aviation Watch Co., Ltd., 27 Bede St., Leicester,

fitted with a Newmark Pin-Pallet un-jeweled movement










With it`s (slightly worn) box and unsigned gurantee sheet


















One of the reasons I like these watches is that the movement was made by Louis Newmark Ltd of Stafford Road Croydon, which was approx 3 miles from where I used to live in Carshalton Beeches and the Aviation Watch Co., Ltd (& Services Watch Co Ltd.) were based approx 3 miles from where I now live









Anyway not bad for less then a tenner


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

How about this for a guarantee?









[attachmentid=5553]

`Including accidental damage`


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Another one for the collection, this freebie arrived yesterday from a very nice man in Cambridgeshire, thanks Paul









*Services Aintree, Unjeweled Pin-pallet, circa Mid 1950`s*

Made by The Services Watch Co.,Ltd. Bede Street, Leicester, England


















It was a bit reluctant to tick when it first arrived even though it was working well when it left Cambridge the day before (probably home sick







) anyway after a night to settle in to it`s new home it`s now ticking away strongly


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## Steve R (Sep 29, 2007)

Well, I read it all the way through and thought it was interesting, so I'll give it a bump for others who may be of like mind. Good stuff Mach! :thumbsup:

S.


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## aliasmarlow (Dec 23, 2005)

Hi Mach,

Made me go digging, the Aviation is a basket case, what year is this one from approx?

Services still a strong runner keeping good time....


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## aliasmarlow (Dec 23, 2005)

Another Made in England I have is this Humberstone from 1964 (presentation inscribed)

not a pin pallet, 17J only marks on movement Cal 01 04, tried googling but found nothing....any info?


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## Chascomm (Sep 9, 2005)

Steve R said:


> Well, I read it all the way through and thought it was interesting, so I'll give it a bump for others who may be of like mind. Good stuff Mach! :thumbsup:


I agree. These post-war British watches deserve more respect. Great work, Mac :thumbup:










1. Westclox, 1960s, made in Dumbarton; presume no jewels pin-lever

2. Timex, 1978, case made in Dundee; other parts and assembly in Taiwan

3. Guildhall, 1950ish, assembled in London; Swiss Bettlach no jewels pin-lever, other parts presumed British

4. Smiths Empire, 1948-55, designed and built in Ystradgynlais; 5 jewel pin-lever calibre RY

5. Smiths, 1956-63ish, designed and built in Ystradgynlais; 5 jewel pin-lever calibre TY

5 watches, 10 jewels, worn with pride


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Sorry for the delay in replying, I`ve only just noticed your posts h34r:

I`m not sure about the Aviation`s age, possibly pre-war as from the ones I`ve seen post war models seem to use the same style case as Services.

I`m still not sure if Avaition were originally a separate company that got taken over by Services as literature I`ve seen gives separate locations for each company pre-WWII but both based at Bede Street post war :huh:

Nice Services you have there :thumbup:

BTW if you`d be interested in letting the Aviation go, let me know :wink2:



aliasmarlow said:


> Hi Mach,
> 
> Made me go digging, the Aviation is a basket case, what year is this one from approx?
> 
> Services still a strong runner keeping good time....





aliasmarlow said:


> Another Made in England I have is this Humberstone from 1964 (presentation inscribed)
> 
> not a pin pallet, 17J only marks on movement Cal 01 04, tried googling but found nothing....any info?


 Sorry I`ve never heard of this firm but it`s a nice looking watch though 

BTW This Lewis`s (`Made in England`) that I`d not heard of before turned up on Ebay recently...












Chascomm said:


> Steve R said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I read it all the way through and thought it was interesting, so I'll give it a bump for others who may be of like mind. Good stuff Mach! :thumbsup:
> ...


A nice little collection, keep up the good work :thumbup:


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