# Quartz Alignment?



## denslen

Didn't know where to post this, and am new here, so here goes.

I have a new from silvermans CWC RN diver (w/ day/date) that is great. However the seconds hand does not line up w/ the second mark consistantly. holds time fine, i guess I just notice details.

is there a remedy for this? can it be adjusted?

thanks in advance

cheers

Derek

Birmingham, AL USA


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## gerrylb

If it really bothers you a lot, I believe any decent watch repairman could do the job of alligning your second hand to the markers. But if it's brand new I wouldn't want to have it popped open just for that. Maybe when the time comes to change the battery. I have the same issue with my Orsa Hammy, but decided that subjecting it to an operation which didn't actually serve any practical time-keeping purpose wasn't worth the risk.

Some of the forum members here though are rather obsessive about the second hands of their quartz watches lining up exactly with the dial markers (not that there's anything wrong with that). They'd probably be in a better position to offer advice.


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## pg tips

it's a pet hate of mine but all quartz suffer from this even ones costing 20 times what you paid for the cwc.

A lot of it is inherenent due to the practicalities of design as there has to be a tiny bit of free play in the gearing and as such it won't tick exactly 1/60th all the time so will drift off and back on the markers depending where it is on the dial.

If it's really noticeable you might be able to get a watchmaker to try and move the hand on the pinnion slightly but it might not cure it. I doubt Silverman's will exchange as it's technically not faulty, I bet 90% of their stock are the same.


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## JonW

Only very expensive quartz and the early ones seem to have this fault erradicated... Its a pte hate of mine too... Ive found a few that line up well, but the Omega Marine Chronometer is the one thats the best at it


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## Griff

This has been discussed before.

I think there is no excuse for this what-so-ever. It is a sloppy lack of attention to detail.

I do have 2 quartz with a very slight off the marker, and it pisses me off big time. I would NEVER buy another quartz that wasn't bang on.

It can easily be put right by taking the second hand off and putting it back on with care. A decent watch repairer should easily and cheaply do it, but the main problem is that too many people out there just don't give a **** and that includes the watch business.

I had a row with a peroxide blonde beach Barbi doll lookalike over it in a well known jewellers, and I just can't bear to tell you what utter drivelling ***** she came out with.

It is unacceptable in ANY make of analogue quartz IMO.

Unfortunately, it is NOT the case that all higher end quartz have got rid of this fault!

Don't accept it.........reject it...........or kick up over it!!!


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## JonW

Griff, the modern ones also suffer from bounce and backlash it seems, so often they dont line up, even if you set the hands correctly at 12 etc. Also the markers can be printed badly and hence be out. Agreed tho that modern manufacturers (even expensive ones) often dont bother to line up hands correctly.

The best ones ive seen are the early ones from the 70s when things like this were one of the extra cool things about the new fangled quartz watches....


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## Griff

The bottom line is that it is sloppy attention to detail, and it is *not* acceptable!


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## JonW

Indeed, but only a WIS would notice and mention it, and very few WIS make up the watch buying population these days.









Id love the magic of quartz to come back... I love the 70's ones from the time when quartz was special, not the bargain basement it seems to seen as today. sigh....


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## nursegladys

I had an Omega Aqua Terra for a couple of years, and that had the same problem; the second hand didn't align properly and as Griff said "it pissed me off", for a Â£900 watch its disgraceful that they just don't give a shi*


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## jasonm

Like Jon says, they dont give a shit because 99.99999% of its customers dnt care either.....


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## Griff

H'mmmmmmmmmmm

A reporter asked the late great Brian Clough what he thought of the most recent football managers coming up in the ranks?

He replied...................well lad, 95 % of footballers are as thick as 2 short planks; and 95 % of football managers are ex football players!!!











> Like Jon says, they dont give a **** because 99.99999% of its customers dnt care either.....


I think a lot more care about it than that!


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## andythebrave

I don't often buy quartz watches but, when I do, I will not buy one whose seconds hand doesn't line up with the markers.

Regardless of how many potential purchasers don't care it is inexcusable that something so simple can't be done right. In fact, this is part of the reason that I concentrate on mechanical movements nowadays.

The sound of nails being hit into coffins was clearly heard when I had an idle moment waiting for a bus outside Goldsmiths and saw an Omega for over Â£1000 and the seconds weren't lining up.

Sure, there may be an argument that on a watch costing Â£15 it wouldn't be reasonable to expect the highest standards but when you're talking a grand then I believe that the buying public has the right to expect decent quality control regardless of whether they care about it, after all if there's evidence of sloppiness on the outside then goodness knows what it's like inside.


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## jasonm

Griff said:


> Like Jon says, they dont give a shit because 99.99999% of its customers dnt care either.....
> 
> 
> 
> I think a lot more care about it than that!
Click to expand...

I bet they dont, they sell millions of them.....If more cared they would do somethig about it, they dont, so they dont!


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## Griff

jasonm said:


> Griff said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like Jon says, they dont give a **** because 99.99999% of its customers dnt care either.....
> 
> 
> 
> I think a lot more care about it than that!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I bet they dont, they sell millions of them.....If more cared they would do somethig about it, they dont, so they dont!
Click to expand...

I bet they do.

There will be many that wont say anything but simply look at a watch and not buy it.

Whoever is turning out quartz Omegas with this non alignment should have electrodes attached to their gonads for a shocking experience.


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## jasonm

I bet they dont ( this could run a while)









I still say the average 'Joe' in the street wouldnt dream of checking if his second hand hit the marks, ask a non watchie mate if he knows if his second hand hits the markers and he/she will look at you and laugh and have his thoughts confirmed at how wiered us lot are..


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## Stan

Irrespective of how many people care about second hand alignment or the accuracy of quartz movements we can be pretty sure that some expensive watches use very cheap movements that don't do an expensive watch justice, or the people that buy them.

People see quartz watches as being perfect because that's what they've been told by watchmakers, the fact is that quartz movements can be very average and you will never know how good the one is that the manufacturer has fitted to the watch you paid a grand for.

A good quartz watch can have perfect second hand alignment and be accurate to within +/- 5 seconds a year but it's very easy for a manufacturer to put a 10 quid movement into a Â£1000 watch, who is going to know other than the person who changes the battery?

It probably earns the robbing Â£30 extra profit on a thousand pound watch.


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## gerrylb

I knew this thread would arouse some spirited comment. The onlly two quartz watches I own whose second hands consistently line up with the dial markers are a Seiko titanium perpetual calendar diver (I would expect nothing less, it is a tool watch after all and cost quite a bit for a Seiko), and, surprise! an old Fossil Blue 100m. I'm wearing the Orsa I mentioned earlier, and reading this thread has amplified my irritation at the fact that half the time the second hand does not hit the dial marker! Grrr!! Well, watcha expect for less than 50 dollars? That's what I get for keeping company with a bunch of WISs!


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## Griff

Stan said:


> Irrespective of how many people care about second hand alignment or the accuracy of quartz movements we can be pretty sure that some expensive watches use very cheap movements that don't do an expensive watch justice, or the people that buy them.
> 
> People see quartz watches as being perfect because that's what they've been told by watchmakers, the fact is that quartz movements can be very average and you will never know how good the one is that the manufacturer has fitted to the watch you paid a grand for.
> 
> A good quartz watch can have perfect second hand alignment and be accurate to within +/- 5 seconds a year but it's very easy for a manufacturer to put a 10 quid movement into a Â£1000 watch, who is going to know other than the person who changes the battery?
> 
> It probably earns the robbing Â£30 extra profit on a thousand pound watch.


Omega dont put cheap quartz in thier quartz watches Stan.

I'm sure Jason is wrong on how many care about misalignment, but I wont continue this little bit of the argument except that the reason people buy and want quartz is that they know they are accurate and people want and expect dead on accuracy, and that at least is a part of the reason why many today dont want or understand mechanical. I know of many non WIS people who look at their watches on the hourly bips of the radio and they comment if the second hand is BANG on twelve or not.

Medical staff take pulses by watches and if the 2nd hand is half way between batons they will get flustered as to when to start and finish the count. They often time just between 10 seconds, and not 60!!!!!!

To say that 99.9999%(how many 9's was it!!







) don't care is silly. Has anybody actually done a reliable poll!?

Shall we ask MORI to take on the task!!??









I'll repeat, for the very last time, there is NO excuse for the misalignment of second hands on the markers on an analogue quartz watch, and people expect bang on precision and accuracy as for their reason in buying quartz in the first place. 

Someone start a poll here............... but ask the 2 questions in an unbiased way!!!!


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## jasonm

> and people expect bang on precision and accuracy as for their reason in buying quartz in the first place. wink.gif


Your wrong, your thinking like a wis...

*The majority of people just buy watches to tell the time*.............Thats why as Stan says they can put cheap movements in expensive watches.....( You say they are not cheap, I bet they are, they might be good, but I bet they are cheap....) Again we dont know for sure so its a moot point 

OK I retract my multiple .9999s







but the point is you dont know either so its as accurate a figure as you have in mind 

You cant do a poll ike this on a watch forum! It would be a bit biased dont you think?


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## r1ch

*The majority of people just buy watches to tell the time.............*

Have to agree with Jason here, although to be fair there are valid points in Griffs view as well.

Its amazing, (to me as a WIS), how many people have no idea even what *brand* of watch they wear or have any notion or interest in anything other than being able to look at their wrist and know what time it is. This has happend to me twice recently, where I have noticed colleagues wearing new watches and I've remarked on as much and asked how they are liking it. Both enquiries were met with a shrug and a thow away comment along the line of "I needed a watch and so went into Argos and thought it looked OK". I think theres a huge percentage of folk who just buy something they like the look of with no regard to anything as detailed as manufacturer, history, engineering, build quality, etc.. etc..

I suppose thats where we WIS fundamentally differ, as for me at least, theres an element of "it tells the time as well" to the enjoyment I get from the watches I own.

Rich.


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## JonW

Griff... modern quartz are generally also made with backlash and bounce so they line up badly, this isnt something easily fixed as the movements come like that. It would mean the suppliers need to improve the quality etc.

I did wonder what percentage of watch purchsers are WIS... and wondered about the number of watch buyers...well... everyone in the world seems to have at least bought one watch... so how many people is that... now add up the forumers... conservatively just add up all the registered users of all the forums and express that as a percentage of the worlds population etc. Jase is probably not far off....


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## Griff

I've stated my view, and I still think it is right.

Omega quartz movements are not cheap, and far better than those in Tags IMO

Brietling quartz wont be cheap either

I would accept that Gucci on the other hand, are very much in the brackets of your description

Sorry.............you're not changing my mind one jot on this!!


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## William_Wilson

Addressing the question of what people expect from a watch: Around thirty years ago accurate and cheap quartz watches became common. In the late 70's when I was in secondary school, all of the kids were showing up with new digital watches.More and more features and cheaper and cheaper. There are a great number of people, in the western world, who have known nothing but accurate and inexpensive watches their entire life. They have no real knowledge of what cheap mechanical watches were like back when many people had to wear them. Decades of having watches that work without any real user effort has changed things. Most people I know don't care if their watch is off by two or three minutes either way, it's consistant and that is good enough.

Later,

William


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## grahamr

Griff said:


> I've stated my view, and I still think it is right.
> 
> Omega quartz movements are not cheap, and far better than those in Tags IMO
> 
> Brietling quartz wont be cheap either
> 
> I would accept that Gucci on the other hand, are very much in the brackets of your description
> 
> Sorry.............you're not changing my mind one jot on this!!


Have to agree with griff on this, I work for a large retailer in a "warehousey" environment

and we all start and stop our shift by clocking in/out.

the "chronos clock" is syncronized to the GMT/BST time signal. We can start our shift as late as

59 mins & 59 secs on the hour but once that clock hits 00 we are late and docked 15 mins.

there are two types of employee at my work, people who dont have/can't afford a half decent watch

and they are always early, clocking on between 15-10 minutes before their shift,

Or people with seiko's, Tags, Tissots Etc, these people casually roll up to start work

no more than 5 mins before their shift starts and take a good look at their watches

sometimes leaving it to the last second before clocking on.

This pattern is reversed at shift end, those with decent watches are already to be found at the clocking machine at 20:59:45

the moment 21:00:00 turns on their watches they look at the clocking machine, grin gleefully

and punch out.

Whilst the others without reliable timepieces form an orderly que.

and it is the same people who do it every day....


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## Griff

Yes; and no one can tell me medical staff don't want a highly accurate watch including being smack on the markers for pulse checking etc.

Many scientists will expect the same


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## grahamr

Griff said:


> Yes; and no one can tell me medical staff don't want a highly accurate watch including being smack on the markers for pulse checking etc.
> 
> Many scientists will expect the same


Griff, IMO that would be a bloody must!!









This forum topic has just reminded me as to why I don't wear my Tissot PR50 quartz,

The second hand stays pinned to the markers from 00 to 30 then drops way off, all the way

back to 00. It looks *****.

and that's on a Â£95.00 watch.

People don't care?

Like **** they don't.


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## Roger

Yes, its a pet gripe of mine too....

Omega seem better to me than most, I have an SMP and an X33 both of which are spot-on (first thing I check).

Here is an excert from the MoD spec for quartz...

Quote...

The high frequency of the oscillator is to be divided down to provide

pulses which will finally rotate suitable gears to drive the hands.

Backlash in the gears controlling the hour and minute hands shall be at a

minimum in order to provide positive time indication. The centre seconds

hand shall advance in steps of one second, and shall point precisely to

each second mark on the dial.

Roger


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## Griff

Roger said:


> Yes, its a pet gripe of mine too....
> 
> Omega seem better to me than most, I have an SMP and an X33 both of which are spot-on (first thing I check).
> 
> Here is an excert from the MoD spec for quartz...
> 
> Quote...
> 
> The high frequency of the oscillator is to be divided down to provide
> 
> pulses which will finally rotate suitable gears to drive the hands.
> 
> Backlash in the gears controlling the hour and minute hands shall be at a
> 
> minimum in order to provide positive time indication. *The centre seconds*
> 
> hand shall advance in steps of one second, and shall point precisely to
> 
> each second mark on the dial.
> 
> Roger


And Omega aren't stupid.

Why are they making watches to this kind of precision!?

They're doing it that way because they think and know they have a market for this requirement, and will sell such watches with that being one it's most desired features.

It's not just WIS people who buy these watches...................it's people who want that spec. for a sporting or professional reason!!!!


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## mach 0.0013137

Griff said:


> Yes; and no one can tell me medical staff don't want a highly accurate watch including being smack on the markers for pulse checking etc.
> 
> Many scientists will expect the same


Sorry Griff but I`ve dealt with Doctors on a regular basis over the last 30 years and have never noticed any being that bothered.

A normal pulse rate after a period of rest is between 60 and 80 beats per minute. It is faster in children. However, if tachycardia is defined as a pulse rate in excess of 100 per minute and bradycardia is less than 60 per minute, then between 60 and 100 must be seen as normal.

Also in my experience a patients pulse can vary slightly while you are taking it due either to them tensing up or calming down & so generally really all you are trying to get is an indication of the pulse rate as well as it`s regularity & strength also assessing if there is any change from the individual`s normal rate.

Under these circumstances it really doesn`t matter if the second hand lines up or not.


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## pg tips

i know a doctor and he doesn't use a watch (or any timing device) when taking a pulse. He just knows from experience. If he gets a pulse way off normal he starts looking for causes, he doesn't need to know the exact rate.


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## jasonm

Griff said:


> Yes; and no one can tell me medical staff don't want a highly accurate watch including being smack on the markers for pulse checking etc.
> 
> Many scientists will expect the same


Macs right, and even if he wasnt the amount of doctors and nurses that take pulses manually and not by the machine that gos 'bing' and are in the market for a watch to specifically do it with are in an even smaller %age than wis's!!

In fact I'll start asking them, I speak to Consultants and Sisters daily, Ill risk looking stupid for you Griff











> Brietling quartz wont be cheap either


The quartz chrono module that was in my Colt quartz was a boggo ETA that Roy replaced for less than Â£50..And that was bought from a supplier, so the cost to Breitling is tiny......



> And Omega aren't stupid.
> 
> Why are they making watches to this kind of precision!?


Because they dont have to!

They are very very successful at what they do, if it was a problem then they would do something about it....


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## Griff

I've seen nurses time by watches.

It doesn't matter really how they choose to take the reading.

It is important to me, and I think a lot more than you say think that the watch has the capability I have gone on about.

I did say I wouldn't go on about this earlier on, and yet I am still doing it!!!

I am sticking to what I have said and my view hasn't changed one iota.

I've actually heard a girl say to her boyfriend just the other Saturday in Bury to not get that one in the window of the jewellers because the seconds were out!!! They must have been WIS then musn't they!!!!









No amount of headbanging on wall gifs will work with me


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## jasonm

'Whatever'


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## Griff

Aye!

something about............better things to do etc...................


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## Stanford

Isn't one of the joys of forums (or is that fora?) that members have different experiences and views which can be shared, and respected for their individuality?

I am sort of with Griff, if there are marks (minutes, seconds etc) for the hands to line up with, they should line up - otherwise take away the marks.

If you have a watch that is supposed to accurate to within 5 seconds a year (or 10 or 20), what is the point if the hands are wobbly and it is always wrong (or at least for the time traversing one half of the dial)?


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## jasonm

I think Im misunderstood









Im not saying that the markers shouldnt line up with the seconds hand, Im saying that the *vast majority *of buyers dont give a rats ass and have never even given the issue a thought....

Im saying we care but only because watches are what we know about......


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## Griff

Prove it!!!!!


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## pg tips

Advantage Griffiths


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## jasonm

Griff said:


> Yes; and no one can tell me medical staff don't want a highly accurate watch including being smack on the markers for pulse checking etc.
> 
> Many scientists will expect the same


If it was that critical then they should be useing digital readouts anyway......

Oh yeah, 'Whatever'


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## pg tips

Deuce


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## jasonm

pg tips said:


> Advantage Griffiths


Sorry, wrong quote...Meant to be Griffs very eloquently put playground 'Prove it!' taunt









Yawn.....

Prove otherwise........

There can be no winners here...Just Griff getting more and more wound up


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## mel

Digital does not necessarily mean more accurate, it's often just "perceived" as being more accurate! Taking one of the split second chrono watches from the Russian forum, against a cheapo digital stop watch, I'd be inclined to consider them to be equally as accurate, however the digi watch should be easier to read off 7.37 seconds than it would be on the mechanical.









And certainly from my perspective














a quick glance at an analogue dial is easier to tell time than 14.33 and 57 seconds on a quartz digital! Me Slava Medical watch has the pulse scale, this is actually very easy to use - and you can use it to time tempo in music also with a wee bit of thought.

2p worth


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## Stanford

jasonm said:


> I think Im misunderstood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im not saying that the markers shouldnt line up with the seconds hand, Im saying that the *vast majority *of buyers dont give a rats ass and have never even given the issue a thought....
> 
> Im saying we care but only because watches are what we know about......


In which case I'm also sort of with you.......I think









I think it's safe to say there are those that care, and those that don't deserve to own a watch


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## Roger

You can measure fractions of a second with analogue.....

This one from my little collection.


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## mach 0.0013137

Griff said:


> I've seen nurses time by watches.


Of course we do but the point is as long as it`s not wildly inaccurate ie losing or gaining lots of seconds every minute it doesn`t matter if the hand lines up exactly with the markers.

To take a pulse properly it should be taken over a full minute so you are checking the hand usually against the 12 0`clock marker.

This doesn`t alter the fact that I agree that it`s sloppy that they don`t align properly


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## gerrylb

Just my two cents (ain't worth much!), but I would think that people in professions which demand spot-on accuracy and timing wouldn't trust an analog watch of any sort, not even a chronometer. They'd probably rely on a digital like all of my pro diver buddies who use Suuntos. As for the medical pros, my wife's a doctor and I hang around with her crowd quite often. They don't raise much of a fuss over their watch's accuracy.

I tend to agree that the attention to perfect allignment of second hand to dial marker is an affliction suffered mostly by true watch afficionados.


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## Griff

jasonm said:


> pg tips said:
> 
> 
> 
> Advantage Griffiths
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, wrong quote...Meant to be Griffs very eloquently put playground 'Prove it!' taunt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yawn.....
> 
> Prove otherwise........
> 
> There can be no winners here...Just Griff getting more and more wound up
Click to expand...

Sorry Jase

If you think this winds me up you really 'aint got a clue mate!!









You should stick to moderating!!!!


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## jasonm

Thats ok Griff, no need to apologise mate


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## Silver Hawk

Crikey...what a thread.







What a lot of fuss about nothing....get a life.









You guys should take a look at a few Hamilton Electrics....the second hand on these bounces all over the place


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## jasonm

And I for one would be proud to have one and not make a fuss Paul


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## pg tips

Is this thread still going? I though my answer in post #3 was perfect!


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## jasonm

pg tips said:


> Is this thread still going? I though my answer in post #3 was perfect!


Yeah, but then we had the 'Griff factor' to contend with


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## Silver Hawk

jasonm said:


> Thats ok Griff, no need to apologise mate


I particularly liked this reply.


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## mach 0.0013137

Silver Hawk said:


> You guys should take a look at a few Hamilton Electrics....the second hand on these bounces all over the place


That`s different, it`s character


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## Stan

The monkey's (always) seem willing to strike up the tune.









Tull.


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## Griff

Your wit is unparalled as per usual Stanley

Your should change your name to Nighthawk.

Don't you ever go to bed !!!!


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## Stan

Griff said:


> Don't you ever go to bed !!!!


Very often, but I don't always stay there for long.


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## PhilM

Having not had chance to reply to this thread earlier, I just been speaking to a non WIS (My Brother) I asked him about his Tag and the aligment of the second hand .... basically the reply I got was, what are you asking and why does it matter









I tried to explain all be it badly







but basically he didn't really care







I'm now sure he thinks I'm strange and won't be calling me for a few weeks









Anyway back to the point, I would say on the number of people I've asked so far, 100% of them don't care


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## Silver Hawk

PhilM said:


> Anyway back to the point, I would say on the number of people I've asked so far, 100% of them don't care


Of course they don't Phil...they have more important things to worry about.

I'm with you and Jason on this...those people who fret about a second hand that might not line with a dial baton either need to get a life or buy a digital watch.

All of the above IMHO of course.


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## Griff

You think so!!!!

You must have been getting too many watch shocks me old "sparrer" 

Them there electrics must be really running you down Hawky. How many batteries per week do they need these days!!?


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## mach 0.0013137

A true story...

Years ago I looked after this guy who was always worrying about the state of the world to such an extent that it meant he was unable to function in the community or hold down a job.

One day during one of his conversations on how bad things were, I asked him to stop and look out the window at some birds, I then said instead of worrying about all that stuff he should try worrying about what they were going to do next ie were they going to fly off or look for worms or whatever, he found this idea so crazy that for the first time in ages he laughed and said I was weird.

From then on every time he started to get worked up with his `worries` I reminded him of the birds and each time he`d laugh & call me crazy.

He was discharged after few months & when I met him some years later he had a flat , been doing some course or other and had a full time job, he told me that my comment about the birds had helped him no end.

The moral... if you worry about the truly unimportant things, the rest, as an Polish ex-girlfriend of mine used to say "is just toothpaste"









You can tell I`m working nights again can`t you?


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## ETCHY

Rolex designed their Oysterquartz movement to line up exactly 

Mind you didn't exactly make it a best seller did it









Dave


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## Griff

Whatever it is you're on Mac.....................I don't want any!!!!


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## mach 0.0013137

Griff said:


> Whatever it is you're on Mac.....................I don't want any!!!!


Remind me to tell you the time I calmed down an agitated client with a toy `zap` gun


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## mrteatime

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Griff said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever it is you're on Mac.....................I don't want any!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remind me to tell you the time I calmed down an agitated client with a toy `zap` gun
Click to expand...

do tell mac


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## Griff

jasonm said:


> pg tips said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this thread still going? I though my answer in post #3 was perfect!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but then we had the 'Griff factor' to contend with
Click to expand...

You're right of course Jason


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## PhilM

Griff got a solution for you, just remove the second hand


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## bluespot

Griff said:


> I've actually heard a girl say to her boyfriend just the other Saturday in Bury to not get that one in the window of the jewellers because the seconds were out!!! They must have been WIS then musn't they!!!!


I hate my watches to tick out of allignment with the markers. I have rejected watches for this and have stood watching them in shop windows until I am happy with a watch prior to a purchase, I'm sure other people don't like shoddy products. I have a Â£50 Pulsar that is spot on, so there is no excuse for a premium brand to get away with this. An Omega I would expect nothing less than quality in every aspect of it.


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## Griff

There you go...................but don't tell Jason!!!!


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## Stan

You're right of course Griff.


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## jasonm

Just what I was going to say Stan, thank you


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