# Chinese "hammer & Sickle"



## raketakat

I know the "Waving Mao" watches are common but I've been wearing this "friendship" watch for a couple of days in solidarity with workers worldwide  .

17 jewel "twangy" movement - polywatch required







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Post your Chinese watch pics here  .


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## mach 0.0013137

Nice one Ian, I like it









Give me a shout if you ever get bored of it









This is the only proper Chinese watch I`ve got, actually it`s not badly made and does keep good time









*Shancheng, Fang Zhen, 17 Zuan.*










A closer look....










and the back....


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## raketakat

Good one Mac







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I suppose the red figures on the outside of the "friendship" dial are there to give a rough idea of the time without looking at the minute hand







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Probably very useful if the minute hand falls off







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## raketakat

I'm fond of this one Mac







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## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> I'm fond of this one Mac
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Me too









I note that, like mine, it has `Fang Zhen` on the dial, any ideas?









Are we the only two with old Chinese watches on this forum?


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## raketakat

The next time I go to the Blue Orchid for my vegetables in black bean sauce I'll ask one of the Chinese students  .

They usually take the piss out of me for being a Barnsley supporter







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As to your other question. There's probably only a few of us who are daft enough to buy watches made for the Chinese market







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## chris l

I have a few; funny thing is that this one cost more than any of my Russians...


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## mach 0.0013137

chris l said:


> I have a few; funny thing is that this one cost more than any of my Russians...


I really like that









Got any more photos of your other Chinese watches ?


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## chris l

and this one thinks it's Russian.


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## PhilM

mach 0.0013137 said:


> chris l said:
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Click to expand...

They dont look bad do they, Jason found a source for these I think


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## mach 0.0013137

As I metioned elsewhere on the forum I gather Seagull watches were actually sold in the UK sometime in the `80`s, I wonder if any of them are lurking in peoples watch draw?









BTW during the same decade I did get in contact with a couple of Chinese watch manufacturers with a view to buying a couple, they were very helpfull, sent me some catalogues which I`ve since lost


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## Julian Latham

mach 0.0013137 said:


> raketakat said:
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> I'm fond of this one Mac
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> I note that, like mine, it has `Fang Zhen` on the dial, any ideas?
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> Are we the only two with old Chinese watches on this forum?
Click to expand...

Nope, I've got two







, one working and keeping pretty good time, the other 'works when shaken' - got them as a pair off e-bay for very little, postage came to more than the bid!

Julian


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## raketakat

chris l said:


> I have a few; funny thing is that this one cost more than any of my Russians...


I've been looking for one of those Chris. Give it here at once 







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mach 0.0013137 said:


> sent me some catalogues which I`ve since lost


That's a hanging offence for a librarian Mac







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I hope you recycled them .



Julian Latham said:


> Nope, I've got two
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> , one working and keeping pretty good time, the other 'works when shaken' - got them as a pair off e-bay for very little, postage came to more than the bid!
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> Julian


Welcome to nutter's corner Julian







. You too have a keen eye for a bargain  .


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## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> chris l said:
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Click to expand...

Get ya mitts off Ian, I want it


















raketakat said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
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> That's a hanging offence for a librarian Mac
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Click to expand...

Of course I did, they eventually became packaging for RLT watches


















raketakat said:


> Julian Latham said:
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> , one working and keeping pretty good time, the other 'works when shaken' - got them as a pair off e-bay for very little, postage came to more than the bid!
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> Julian
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> Welcome to nutter's corner Julian
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Click to expand...

Come on Julian don`t be shy, show us some pics


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## chris l

"I've been looking for one of those Chris. Give it here at once 







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Mine, all mine....


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## mach 0.0013137

I like that Shanghai









BTW what is the one with the Hammer & Sickle?


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## Julian Latham

O.K here goes - attempt number one at posting an image.

Number one, working, Chinese watch :










and number two, intermittently working, Chinese watch :










here's hoping







!

Julian


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## mach 0.0013137

Frustrating isn`t it?









If you Email the photo`s to me I`ll try and post them if you like, Julian


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## Julian Latham

Ouch







Please remove that wall, it is impeding my forward progress.

Another go



























C**p photo's, but I think I've got it









Julian


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## Julian Latham

mach 0.0013137 said:


> I like that Shanghai
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> BTW what is the one with the Hammer & Sickle?


Oddly enough there are some NOS 19 jewel, shockproof, Shangai watches available - 'gold' or 'silver' finish


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## mach 0.0013137

Julian Latham said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
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> Oddly enough there are some NOS 19 jewel, shockproof, Shangai watches available - 'gold' or 'silver' finish
Click to expand...

I noticed those, I`m having to be restrained at the moment, maybe try later on


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## johnbaz

the only one with the hammer & sickle-










and the 'HONG KONG' back


















i've got a few with the crappy chinese mechanical movements too









john.


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## jasonm

Can I join in?

Not Chinese but there is a link


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## chris l

mach 0.0013137 said:


> I like that Shanghai
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> BTW what is the one with the Hammer & Sickle?


If you meant my watch; it appears to be a Chinese copy of a Russian watch (!) with a Mickey Mouse back engraved with a propeller and something like 'Army of the Air' in Cyrillic...

I mean...who fakes/faked Russian watches?


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## mach 0.0013137

chris l said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
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> If you meant my watch; it appears to be a Chinese copy of a Russian watch (!) with a Mickey Mouse back engraved with a propeller and something like 'Army of the Air' in Cyrillic...
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> I mean...who fakes/faked Russian watches?
Click to expand...

Apprently Chinese made fake Vostok`s have been appearing


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## raketakat

chris l said:


> I mean...who fakes/faked Russian watches?


The Chinese for easy tourist $$s  .



Julian Latham said:


> C**p photo's, but I think I've got it
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Well done Julian







. We'll be able to have a look at your Sekondas now  .


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## sevesteen

raketakat said:


> I know the "Waving Mao" watches are common but I've been wearing this "friendship" watch for a couple of days in solidarity with workers worldwide  .
> 
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> Post your Chinese watch pics here  .


Older Shanghai










IIRC, Fang Zhen is "Shock Proof" or similar.

Current Seagull auto:










Automatic uses Seiko-style magic lever

Current Seagull Chrono:










Based on a Venus 150 movement--Once source says from old Venus tooling.










Skeletonized "Chinese Standard" movement:










Interesting to me is that the majority of true Chinese mechanicals (as opposed to china movements in other cases) use stainless cases, rather than plated basemetal.


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## raketakat

sevesteen said:


> IIRC, Fang Zhen is "Shock Proof" or similar.
> 
> Interesting to me is that the majority of true Chinese mechanicals (as opposed to china movements in other cases) use stainless cases, rather than plated basemetal.


Welcome to our little corner







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I showed one of my watches to a lad at the local Chinese takeaway. After he'd finished laughing







he said he thought "Fang Zhen" was trademark







. " You know - like HMV," he said







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I've noticed that most of the cases are stainless steel too. These watches must not have been cheap to buy in China and were owned by the "favoured few" I assume







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That Sea-Gull auto has a certain charm  .


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## mach 0.0013137

sevesteen said:


> Older Shanghai
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Those two are really nice











sevesteen said:


> Interesting to me is that the majority of true Chinese mechanicals (as opposed to china movements in other cases) use stainless cases, rather than plated basemetal.





raketakat said:


> I've noticed that most of the cases are stainless steel too. These watches must not have been cheap to buy in China and were owned by the "favoured few" I assume
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I was pleasently supprised with the quality of my Shancheng when it arrived, especially the fact that the case is stainless, I remember Reto Castellazzi mentioning there was a significant quality difference between `Export` quality watches and I presume those for sale in China itself, which may explain this.


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## raketakat

mach 0.0013137 said:


> I was pleasently supprised with the quality of my Shancheng when it arrived, especially the fact that the case is stainless, I remember Reto Castellazzi mentioning there was a significant quality difference between `Export` quality watches and I presume those for sale in China itself, which may explain this.


Export to where Mac







?


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## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
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Click to expand...

Hong Kong I gather


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## Chascomm

raketakat said:


> I've noticed that most of the cases are stainless steel too. These watches must not have been cheap to buy in China and were owned by the "favoured few" I assume
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Hi all. Mind if I chip in?

I have it from reliable sources that under the old economy, maybe as much as 80% of Chinese watches had steel cases i.e the opposite proportion to Swiss or Soviet watches. Looking at my own watches, I can see that the steel is somewhat dull compared to foreign watches, but it is certaily durable.

Steel became the dominant case material from about 1960, which happens to coincide with the massive 'Great Leap Forward' steel production program, whose aim was specifically to 'produce more steel than Great Britain'. Comentators have often written off this program as a failure, due to the small-scale decentralized smelting techniques producing steel that was not of sufficient quality to support the engineering programs for which it was intended e.g. railways, bridges etc. But all of this low-grade steel had to go somwhere, so my guess is that it was chanelled into appropriate light industrial applications such as watch case production.

BTW, today I'm wearing a delightful Beijing Shuangling 20 jewel with a red dial of almost jewel-like quality. I really ought to photograph it some time.


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## raketakat

Chascomm said:


> Hi all. Mind if I chip in?


Not at all. Welcome to the forum







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An interesting first post. I always like to know the historical and economic context under which watches are produced  .

As you've probably seen, some forum members, are becoming inquisitive about Chinese watch history. We hope you'll tell us more if you can spare the time.

We are a bit clueless at the moment














but willing to listen.

That sounds a nice watch. Can we have a look when you get around to taking a photo?


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## Chascomm

raketakat said:


> I'm fond of this one Mac
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Nice Zhongshan. I've got an older one with a textured dial but it's pretty rough compared to yours.

Have you ever opened it up to look inside? The SN-2 movement is a very interesting one. The idea seems to have been to produce a 'workers' watch' that would be much cheaper than a regular 17 jewel, but still offer decent timekeeping. So this movement is a pillar-and-plate design (flat plates are cheaper to cut, I guess) like one of those old Swiss pin-levers, and the unjewelled Roskopf train would also keep the cost down, but the jewelled-lever escapement is fully-jewelled and beautifully made for such a cheap watch. Mine keeps reasonable time and has a power-reserve of more than 54 hours.

Other factories produced this design with 11 or 16 jewels with brand names Huang He and Lotus. Strangely these watches never sold as well as the more expensive 'standard' Chinese watch. Somebody I know who remembers those days commented that given the difficulty in acquiring any kind of watch (saving up for months, collecting coupons, and a document signed by co-workers to say you deserved it), many buyers figured it was better to save up a bit longer and get a higher grade of watch.


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## mach 0.0013137

Facinating stuff Chas, do you have any idea when, where & by whom the various watches shown in this thread were made?









Welcome to the forum BTW









Look forward to seeing some photo`s of any (especially Chinese) watches you have


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## raketakat

Chascomm said:


> Have you ever opened it up to look inside? The SN-2 movement is a very interesting one. The idea seems to have been to produce a 'workers' watch' that would be much cheaper than a regular 17 jewel, but still offer decent timekeeping. So this movement is a pillar-and-plate design (flat plates are cheaper to cut, I guess) like one of those old Swiss pin-levers, and the unjewelled Roskopf train would also keep the cost down, but the jewelled-lever escapement is fully-jewelled and beautifully made for such a cheap watch. Mine keeps reasonable time and has a power-reserve of more than 54 hours.
> 
> Other factories produced this design with 11 or 16 jewels with brand names Huang He and Lotus. Strangely these watches never sold as well as the more expensive 'standard' Chinese watch. Somebody I know who remembers those days commented that given the difficulty in acquiring any kind of watch (saving up for months, collecting coupons, and a document signed by co-workers to say you deserved it), many buyers figured it was better to save up a bit longer and get a higher grade of watch.


To be honest the only reason I haven't had the back off is that I don't have an opener for this sort of watch







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It is not evident in the photo but the dial is pinched backwards, in a circle, from where the silver markers start.

I must say that I'm impressed by the time keeping. I've had it running a week now and it's only put on a few

seconds







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One observation. This watch reminds me of a Swiss "Enicar". They seem to have sold a lot of watches in the Far East and now the East is selling them back to the West on ebay  .

Interesting stuff







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I'd end up with a "Constant" or a "Reflex" 







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## Julian Latham

Is this likely to be another Chinese movement? It's in a press fit back case stamped Base Metal - Stainless Steel Back, bears no country of origin. The face is marked Saxon 17 Jewels. The only marking visible on the movement is 17 ZUAN.










Julian


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## mach 0.0013137

Julian Latham said:


> Is this likely to be another Chinese movement? It's in a press fit back case stamped Base Metal - Stainless Steel Back, bears no country of origin. The face is marked Saxon 17 Jewels. The only marking visible on the movement is 17 ZUAN.
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Saxon were an East German company (or a UMF brand), I`ve got one with `Made in GDR` on the dial.









The movement in yours Julian looks identical to the one in my Shancheng and the`!7 Zuan` would appear confirm it`s Chinese origins


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## Chascomm

Julian Latham said:


> Is this likely to be another Chinese movement? It's in a press fit back case stamped Base Metal - Stainless Steel Back, bears no country of origin. The face is marked Saxon 17 Jewels. The only marking visible on the movement is 17 ZUAN.
> 
> Julian


Hi Julian.

Yes that's the Chinese 'Standard' movement. If you're lucky you might find a manufacturer's mark under the balance, but usually it's signed on the bridge. I have one in a Hong Kong watch that is marked like yours; nasty finish but I've got it running well now. I understand that back in the 1970s there were as many as 38 factories producing the standard movement. Quality can vary greatly, so although it's a decent design, you'll find many that are crap. The best ones are from Shanghai, Beijing and Tianjin. Liaoning, Yantai and Suzhou have a good reputation, too. Any older Chinese watch with a 19 jewel version of the standard movement should be good (so long as it's been treated well).

Saxon is a bit of an international brand. They mostly used to be rebadged Ruhlas (I've got one), but there were simple digital watches from Hong Kong under the same brand also in the 1980s (odd considering Ruhla-Eurochron were at the time producing a superior product to the Saxon digital). A couple of years ago I saw a nasty $2 digital with the Saxon brand, so it's probably Asian owned now.


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## mach 0.0013137

Hi Chascomm, have you got any info on my Shancheng, ie where,when & by whom it was made?


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## Julian Latham

The face of my Chinese Saxon


















I can't take to it at all and doubt if it will ever get worn, though it does keep good time









Julian


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## mach 0.0013137

Julian Latham said:


> The face of my Chinese Saxon
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It is erm. rather loud


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## Chascomm

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Hi Chascomm, have you got any info on my Shancheng, ie where,when & by whom it was made?


Umm... All I've got on 'Shancheng' is that it was made by the Chongqing Watch Factory in Chongqing, Sichuan Province. It's the only brand that I know of from that factory. Not even sure what Shancheng means; maybe Mountain City? (a wild guess; I can't speak or read Chinese)

I don't know when the factory started, but it's not one of the famous ones, so it was probably one of the many set up in the 1970s to produce 'standard ' watches only. Under the new market economy it is unlikely to have survived, but I can't confirm this.

By the way, that Chinese Saxon dial makes my Ruhla-Saxon look pretty classy











mach 0.0013137 said:


> Look forward to seeing some photo`s of any (especially Chinese) watches you have


What I'm wearing today:










People's Liberation Army New Century Series, Armed Police Division automatic model. Made in 2000 by some company in Guangdong Province (I forget the name; they make Sunboro brand). The movement behaves like a Miyota, so I believe it's got a Nanning NN38 inside (as featured in the new Timex auto), but the caseback refuses to budge so I can't be sure


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## raketakat

Chascomm said:


> Umm... All I've got on 'Shancheng' is that it was made by the Chongqing Watch Factory in Chongqing, Sichuan Province.
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And we have trouble with Russian factories and place names














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Thats certainly a watch with an overage ( thanks saboter  ) of style  . It's certainly in keeping with the ornaments in my local Chinese takeaway







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A bit of a culture shock for an austere Northern European 







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## mach 0.0013137

Chascomm said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
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> I don't know when the factory started, but it's not one of the famous ones, so it was probably one of the many set up in the 1970s to produce 'standard ' watches only. Under the new market economy it is unlikely to have survived, but I can't confirm this.
Click to expand...

Thanks `C` interesting stuff









Whilest I`m picking your brains do you have any info on this `*BAO XUAN*`? (well I think that`s what it`s called) that arrived today after a trade with Julian (thanks `J`


















(Please excuse the quick & crappy photo)

The writing under the hands is a little scratched but appears to be...

*JIEYANG*

SHOUBIAOCHANG

17 ZUAN










On the back it has a stylised `B` inside a fan in the centre, plus *QUANGANG*, Fangzhen and various Chinese characters around it, also the movement different to the one in the Shancheng which is similar to the one in Julians Saxon











Chascomm said:


> By the way, that Chinese Saxon dial makes my Ruhla-Saxon look pretty classy


That wouldn`t be difficult


















Chascomm said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
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> People's Liberation Army New Century Series, Armed Police Division automatic model. Made in 2000 by some company in Guangdong Province (I forget the name; they make Sunboro brand). The movement behaves like a Miyota, so I believe it's got a Nanning NN38 inside (as featured in the new Timex auto), but the caseback refuses to budge so I can't be sure
Click to expand...

I like that and would wear it, well maybe without the bracelet


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## raketakat

Chascomm said:


> I believe it's got a Nanning NN38 inside (as featured in the new Timex auto),


I wonder if PG and knut know about that







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## pg tips

Knut's got the new timex


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## raketakat

pg tips said:


> Knut's got the new timex


I like that. Are they available in Britain yet







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This threads getting a bit long







. I wonder if Roy would go for a "Chinese and watches of Chinese origin forum














?


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## pg tips

raketakat said:


> I like that. Are they available in Britain yet
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No Ian, Knut had to order his and it took ages to arrive. I'm not sure if they are launching them in the UK or not.


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## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> This threads getting a bit long
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Might as well, in a few years most new watches will qualify











pg tips said:


> raketakat said:
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Click to expand...

It is a well known fact that British people do not like mechanical watches









Well at least to watch companies it is


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## Chascomm

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Whilest I`m picking your brains do you have any info on this `*BAO XUAN*`? (well I think that`s what it`s called) that arrived today after a trade with Julian (thanks `J`
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> *JIEYANG*
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> SHOUBIAOCHANG
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> 17 ZUAN
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> On the back it has a stylised `B` inside a fan in the centre, plus *QUANGANG*, Fangzhen and various Chinese characters around it, also the movement different to the one in the Shancheng which is similar to the one in Julians Saxon


Mate, you scored with that one









The movement looks like the absolute top-of-the-range version of the cheap 'worker's watch' movement that was first used in the Nanjing Zhongshan. Certainly that is the highest specification Roskopf movement wristwatch that I have ever seen. Do I see some fine engraving on the little bridge that holds the lever (under the balance wheel)? That idiosyncratic touch is the same as in the Zhongshan. I wonder if Jieyang bought SN-2 ebauches from Nanjing and upgraded them, rather than building the complete movement from scratch.

"shoubiao chang" means watch factory. The Jieyang Watch Factory may or may not be the same as the old Jieyang Watch _Parts_ Factory, which seems to have now evolved into the RAIXE Ronghua Technological Factory of Clocks and Watches http://www.gyzb.com/index.htm, making parts for Seiko-style movements amongst other things.

"quangang" means all steel (as opposed to "ban gang" - half steel i.e. steel back only), "fangzhen" means shockproof.

I don't know what "Bao Xuan" means










The case looks like a typical early '70s style, and the touch of red enamel is so quintessentially Chinese


----------



## mach 0.0013137

Chascomm said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whilest I`m picking your brains do you have any info on this `*BAO XUAN*`? (well I think that`s what it`s called) that arrived today after a trade with Julian (thanks `J`
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Please excuse the quick & crappy photo)
> 
> The writing under the hands is a little scratched but appears to be...
> 
> *JIEYANG*
> 
> SHOUBIAOCHANG
> 
> 17 ZUAN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On the back it has a stylised `B` inside a fan in the centre, plus *QUANGANG*, Fangzhen and various Chinese characters around it, also the movement different to the one in the Shancheng which is similar to the one in Julians Saxon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mate, you scored with that one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The movement looks like the absolute top-of-the-range version of the cheap 'worker's watch' movement that was first used in the Nanjing Zhongshan. Certainly that is the highest specification Roskopf movement wristwatch that I have ever seen. Do I see some fine engraving on the little bridge that holds the lever (under the balance wheel)? That idiosyncratic touch is the same as in the Zhongshan. I wonder if Jieyang bought SN-2 ebauches from Nanjing and upgraded them, rather than building the complete movement from scratch.
> 
> "shoubiao chang" means watch factory. The Jieyang Watch Factory may or may not be the same as the old Jieyang Watch _Parts_ Factory, which seems to have now evolved into the RAIXE Ronghua Technological Factory of Clocks and Watches http://www.gyzb.com/index.htm, making parts for Seiko-style movements amongst other things.
> 
> "quangang" means all steel (as opposed to "ban gang" - half steel i.e. steel back only), "fangzhen" means shockproof.
> 
> I don't know what "Bao Xuan" means
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The case looks like a typical early '70s style, and the touch of red enamel is so quintessentially Chinese
Click to expand...

Thanks for info `C`, again very interesting stuff









You are correct there is cross hatching on the lever bridge, you mention Roskopf, I thought those type of movements had pin levers where as this has a jeweled lever


----------



## Julian Latham

Phew!







To think I had considered disassembling it, just to see if I could. Darned good thing it came to you.


----------



## mach 0.0013137

Julian Latham said:


> Phew!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To think I had considered disassembling it, just to see if I could. Darned good thing it came to you.


Worth the Vostok I think


----------



## raketakat

The Chinese certainly knew how to design a caseback







. They are at least as interesting as the dials







.

I hope you get Bao Xuan fixed up Mac  . I presume you've googled the name







. They seem quite common Chinese names although there seems to have been a Chinese general so named back in the day  .


----------



## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> The Chinese certainly knew how to design a caseback
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . They are at least as interesting as the dials
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I hope you get Bao Xuan fixed up Mac  . I presume you've googled the name
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . They seem quite common Chinese names although there seems to have been a Chinese general so named back in the day  .


 Doh! I didn`t think of doing a google









And yes it will be off to Birstall for some TLC, although not just yet, the Citizen Newmaster needs to go first to sort out my ham fisted tinkering


----------



## Chascomm

mach 0.0013137 said:


> You are correct there is cross hatching on the lever bridge, you mention Roskopf, I thought those type of movements had pin levers where as this has a jeweled lever


It is a common misconception because usually the Roskopf train and pin-lever escapement are usually used together in cheap watches. The Roskopf system is in fact a simplified arrangement of the wheels driving the hands, and is not dependent on any particular type of escapement.

While there are pin-lever escapements sometimes used with a 4-wheel train, it is far rarer to see a Roskopf with jewlled lever. Which is why I think the SN-2 is such a fascinating experiment in 'Socialist watchmaking' (to coin a phrase). Here is a watch made with the fewest possible number of parts while still providing the accuracy of a jewelled lever. This is the complete opposite of the Timex 21 and various generic Swiss movements by likes of Baumgartner, Bettlach, etc, which are pin-lever movements which have had the jewel count spuriously increased to to make the watch more marketable (which represents 'Capitalist watchmaking' at its most dubious).


----------



## pg tips

Chascomm said:


> 'Socialist watchmaking'
> 
> 'Capitalist watchmaking'


Where are Griff and Jot? I can see they'd love this thread


----------



## raketakat

pg tips said:


> Chascomm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 'Socialist watchmaking'
> 
> 'Capitalist watchmaking'
> 
> 
> 
> Where are Griff and Jot? I can see they'd love this thread
Click to expand...

They're too involved in their Lada Cossack argument to be bothered with this







.

I do like the way Chas puts his points over though  . We'd better be careful or the blessed Chinese thread will end up being plonked in the "Politics" forum














.


----------



## pg tips

Yes that would be unfortunate wouldn't it







(he smiles fingers at the ready to leap on the appropriate button! Deformation of the honour of TIMEX is reason enough!







)


----------



## Chascomm

pg tips said:


> Yes that would be unfortunate wouldn't it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (he smiles fingers at the ready to leap on the appropriate button! Deformation of the honour of TIMEX is reason enough!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


...not that there's anything WRONG with owning a Timex, I hasten to add








My first new watch was a Timex pin-lever. No, really!

Please don't ban me









In fact I'd be delighted to own the aforementioned Timex 21 _because_ of its engineering idiosyncracies. It's the only watch I know of with a pin-lever escapement in which the pin pallets have been replaced by pin-shaped jewels. And what other 21 jewel watch has no jewels on the balance pivot?


----------



## pg tips

> My first new watch was a Timex pin-lever. No, really!


Wasn't everyones?









I wouldn't dream of banning you







I can't anyway only Roy has that power.

I was just kidding, I have ridiculed the Timex 21 myself on forum, I have a few somewhere in a box, I really must get at least one of them running again.

I've never actually looked that closely to count how many jewels are superfluous.

I think last time I posted these pics Mr Coppen said he's seen better metal in a John West Salmon tin!


----------



## mach 0.0013137

Chascomm said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct there is cross hatching on the lever bridge, you mention Roskopf, I thought those type of movements had pin levers where as this has a jeweled lever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is a common misconception because usually the Roskopf train and pin-lever escapement are usually used together in cheap watches. The Roskopf system is in fact a simplified arrangement of the wheels driving the hands, and is not dependent on any particular type of escapement.
> 
> While there are pin-lever escapements sometimes used with a 4-wheel train, it is far rarer to see a Roskopf with jewlled lever. Which is why I think the SN-2 is such a fascinating experiment in 'Socialist watchmaking' (to coin a phrase). Here is a watch made with the fewest possible number of parts while still providing the accuracy of a jewelled lever. This is the complete opposite of the Timex 21 and various generic Swiss movements by likes of Baumgartner, Bettlach, etc, which are pin-lever movements which have had the jewel count spuriously increased to to make the watch more marketable (which represents 'Capitalist watchmaking' at its most dubious).
Click to expand...

Thanks again `C` sounds like a very unusual movement











pg tips said:


> My first new watch was a Timex pin-lever. No, really!
> 
> 
> 
> Wasn't everyones?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't dream of banning you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't anyway only Roy has that power.
> 
> I was just kidding, I have ridiculed the Timex 21 myself on forum, I have a few somewhere in a box, I really must get at least one of them running again.
> 
> I've never actually looked that closely to count how many jewels are superfluous.
> 
> I think last time I posted these pics Mr Coppen said he's seen better metal in a John West Salmon tin!
Click to expand...









What is the significance of the `stars`?


----------



## pg tips

That's Timex's highly decorated movement mac














pure indulgence I think


----------



## mach 0.0013137

pg tips said:


> That's Timex's highly decorated movement mac
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pure indulgence I think


An attempt to distract from the `John West Salmon Tin` looks maybe?


----------



## Xantiagib

> What is the significance of the `stars`?


Them there is reinforcement fins for the metal plates to stop them warping during variations of temperature....


----------



## pg tips

funnily enough we have been discussing this on the TIMEX forum. The alloy the Timex movement plates are made of (armalloy) was developed during WWII it looks like the US govt were putting scientists all over industry. Timex or rather it's predecessor were making many items for the war effort including timing devices for munitions, reliability was of paramount importance for obvious reason.

The metal alloy they came up with enabled them to make the need for jewels redundant, the properties ot the alloy being just as good as a jewel for bearing properties but just as strong as traditional metals. The development of the V conic bearing ie a small v shaped hole drilled direct into the plate meant that millions of reliable movements could be made at very little expense with far fewer parts compared to a standard movement of the day.

After the war US Time saw a niche and developed wrist watch movements from this technology and the rest is history.

They are bloody ugly movements though I must admit!

I love the way our threads "drift"







Who would have thought a Ian's simple request for pictures of chinese watches would end up with a post about the American war effort!


----------



## raketakat

mach 0.0013137 said:


> What is the significance of the `stars`?


It's an illuminati sign concerning the timing of the apocalypse














.

Please ban me pg - I've lost it














.

Mac, come and get me at once. I'll go quietly














.


----------



## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is the significance of the `stars`?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's an illuminati sign concerning the timing of the apocalypse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Please ban me pg - I've lost it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Mac, come and get me at once. I'll go quietly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Close the curtains, lie down on the floor with your calves on a chair and take slow deep breathes, some nice gentlemen will be around soon with a special jacket and a little injection then everything will be all right







.


----------



## mach 0.0013137

Anyway enough of this side tracking, any one else got some (particularly old) chinese watches they`d like to share with the group


----------



## raketakat

What do you reckon to this one Mac







?

The Gate of Heavenly Peace motif is repeated on the caseback.

Dial ageing is exaggerated by photo







.










Here's another Zhong Shan with a textured dial







.


----------



## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> What do you reckon to this one Mac
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> The Gate of Heavenly Peace motif is repeated on the caseback.
> 
> Dial ageing is exaggerated by photo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another Zhong Shan with a textured dial
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


How many Chinese have you got Ian?


----------



## raketakat

I've only got eight at the moment Mac, and I'm evaluating whether I need anymore







.

I think only half of them I would depend on as a daily wearer  .

I'm looking for a couple of nice modern examples now. I've got a Seagull chrono on the way - it's a shame that they're not easier to get in this country







.

I did suggest that Roy might get a few but understandably he's dubious about quality control and parts availability.

He won't sell anything he's not willing to stand by







.


----------



## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> I've only got eight at the moment Mac, and I'm evaluating whether I need anymore
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I think only half of them I would depend on as a daily wearer  .
> 
> I'm looking for a couple of nice modern examples now. I've got a Seagull chrono on the way - it's a shame that they're not easier to get in this country
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I did suggest that Roy might get a few but understandably he's dubious about quality control and parts availability.
> 
> He won't sell anything he's not willing to stand by
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I may have to keep a look out for some more, as I mentioned before I did hear that some Seagull watches were imported into the UK maybe about the time Seagull cameras first came here.









I did have a look at some Seagull watches when I went with my ex-wife to visit her family in Malaysia in the `80s but bought a fake Rolex from Thailand instead
















BTW I`ve got a Seagull DF SLR so it would be nice to have a watch to go with it









I quiet understand Roy`s attitude


----------



## Chascomm

pg tips said:


> I think last time I posted these pics Mr Coppen said he's seen better metal in a John West Salmon tin!


"The watch John West rejected"

(did you ever get that ad over there?)


----------



## Chascomm

raketakat said:


> What do you reckon to this one Mac
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> The Gate of Heavenly Peace motif is repeated on the caseback.
> 
> Dial ageing is exaggerated by photo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Early Beijing watches are kind of rare outside of Beijing







Interesting movement inside, based on a Swiss design (Marvin, I think) but progressively modified until it was quite different. These early BS-2 and SB-5 watches were strictly elite items, showcasing the very best of Chinese watchmaking (and probably only available to the Party elite). After the downfall of the mayor of Beijing at the start of the Cultural Revolution, the Beijing Watch Factory was directed to quit the deluxe watches and initiate production of the Chinese 'Standard' movement which was subsequently duplicated right across China.



> Here's another Zhong Shan with a textured dial
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


The 'golf ball'. They did a coloured version, too. The Zhongshans to look for are the ones with the embossed illustration on the dial e.g. double dragon, double phoenix, eight deers. Unfortunately texture and print don't mix well. I've got one with a florally pattern and most of the text has come off


----------



## raketakat

Thanks for the info. Chas







.

The "Beijing" does look and feel more refined than the Zhongshan, even though it has suffered with age. I presume that's the "B S" number above the six marker







.

Is there a knack to getting inside these watches







? I'd like to get a look at the movement. They are screw backs aren't they







?

"Golf ball"







- I knew it reminded me of something  .


----------



## mach 0.0013137

Did a google for `Chinese Mechanical Watches` and came up with some very informative results


----------



## raketakat

Well it's Chinese







. I'll post this here so you can extract the Michael 







.



mach 0.0013137 said:


> Did a google for `Chinese Mechanical Watches` and came up with some very informative results


(In nasal tones) " Well that's very interesting Mac."







 .


----------



## mart broad

Ok whilst we are on the subject of "tacky" Chinese

take a look at my $2.00 special,









Ok i know i was robbed









Martin


----------



## raketakat

mart broad said:


> Ok whilst we are on the subject of "tacky" Chinese
> 
> take a look at my $2.00 special,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok i know i was robbed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Martin


Good on yer Martin for owning up to that







 .

I don't think you was robbed














.


----------



## mach 0.0013137

I`ve had a near mint Seagull for a few years....

[attachmentid=5459]

well the selftimer is clockwork


















raketakat said:


> Well it's Chinese
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I'll post this here so you can extract the Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did a google for `Chinese Mechanical Watches` and came up with some very informative results
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (In nasal tones) " Well that's very interesting Mac."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...


----------



## pg tips

does this count









I'm gonna rob it for it's strap and battery and then in the scrap box it goes!


----------



## mach 0.0013137

mart broad said:


> Ok whilst we are on the subject of "tacky" Chinese
> 
> take a look at my $2.00 special,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok i know i was robbed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Martin


Maybe you could get it modified so his (waving) hand showed two fingers and have *`Yuck Fou, Imperialist Running Dogs !!`* printed on the dial


----------



## Chascomm

mart broad said:


> Ok whilst we are on the subject of "tacky" Chinese
> 
> take a look at my $2.00 special,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok i know i was robbed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Martin


But does it actually work? That's the real question.

I borrowed one once from a friend and found that the slightest movement of my arm (e.g. walking) caused the damn thing to stop







But then I found it ran perfectly when worn on my right wrist.

The movement I found was marked as being made by the Shijiazhuang watch factory, but it was a special extra-crap grade movement, because I have another standard movement from the same factory which is noticeably higher quality. That was in a fake Prim for the Czech market. (No I am not making this up)



raketakat said:


> Thanks for the info. Chas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> The "Beijing" does look and feel more refined than the Zhongshan, even though it has suffered with age. I presume that's the "B S" number above the six marker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Is there a knack to getting inside these watches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ? I'd like to get a look at the movement. They are screw backs aren't they
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


Yes it's a screw back. You need a case-opener with bits for gripping the flats of the nut shape on the back. You can pick up cheapies on ebay from India or China for a couple of bucks. Mine has grooves on the bits so it also opens Chinese Rolexes.


----------



## mart broad

"But does it actually work? That's the real question."

Yes it does providing you keep the thing either wound or on your wrist.

Mao's arm goes up and down like a fiddlers elbow,great fun watch.

Martin


----------



## raketakat

raketakat said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did a google for `Chinese Mechanical Watches` and came up with some very informative results
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (In nasal tones) " Well that's very interesting Mac."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
Click to expand...

Oh I see now Mac







. This is where you brag about your Bao Xuan being rare and having a high jewel count ( I thought only women were interested in jewels BTW ) 







.

I wondered what all that clear blue was at the bottom of your post







.

I didn't think enlightened hippies could be so sly







- I was wrong














.


----------



## raketakat

raketakat said:


> Well it's Chinese
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I'll post this here so you can extract the Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I've come to the conclusion that I like this thing







. Even the faux ageing to the dial and case is rather appealing







.

Nice quality suede strap with large stainless steel buckle too







.

The stainless steel case is rather heavy and angular .

The domed mineral crystal is also heavy and gives plenty of scope for accidents to happen







.

Cheap n' cheerful on the whole







.


----------



## raketakat

pg tips said:


> does this count
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gonna rob it for it's strap and battery and then in the scrap box it goes!


It's a decent effort Paul but somewhat lacking in finesse and you need to try to hide your disgust more effectively 







.


----------



## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> Oh I see now Mac
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . This is where you brag about your Bao Xuan being rare and having a high jewel count ( I thought only women were interested in jewels BTW )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


Shame on you Ian, how could you make such a blatantly sexest remark

























> I wondered what all that clear blue was at the bottom of your post
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


I was editing the post and somehow when I posted it the entire post was doubled up









So I deleted the duplicate











> I didn't think enlightened hippies could be so sly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - I was wrong
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


----------



## chris l

[quote

Post your Chinese watch pics here  .


----------



## mach 0.0013137

chris l said:


> I know, I know, you've seen it before; but isn't it nice...?


Yes











> and remember...


----------



## raketakat

Look at this "porduct"







. Why the hell can't we get them here







?


----------



## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


>


That is nice











> Why the hell can't we get them here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


I don`t know
















I`d consider buying one if the price was reasonable









(and I had the dosh







)


----------



## chris l

> Why the hell can't we get them here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?


Have a look at

http://www.tsinyi.com/produce/list.asp?mai...idong=3&main2=a

and weep.


----------



## mach 0.0013137

Distinctive









[attachmentid=5471]


----------



## raketakat

I like those Yin Yangs too







.


----------



## raketakat

chris l said:


> I know, I know, you've seen it before; but isn't it nice...?


You are a terrible man Chris, to taunt us like that














.

Are you sure you're not Griff's brother














?


----------



## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> chris l said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know, I know, you've seen it before; but isn't it nice...?
> 
> 
> 
> You are a terrible man Chris, to taunt us like that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Are you sure you're not Griff's brother
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ?
Click to expand...


----------



## chris l




----------



## Chascomm

raketakat said:


> Post your Chinese watch pics here  .


Steering this thread back on topic (before my net-nanny blocks it)...

Here's some embarrassingly bad scans of a selection of vintage Chinese watches. Don't be fooled by the pictures; the rough ones are really not quite so rough, and the less rough ones are actually in excellent condition. Next time I'll use a camera

1. Tianjin ST5 Seagull 19 jewels (with their trademark 'Seagull stripes' on the movement). AFAIK this was China's first export model; essentially a rebadged Dong Feng (East Wind). This watch was good enough to earn Tianjin special dispensation from making Standard movements for a decade or so.

2. Shanghai Zuanshi (Diamond) SM1A-K. Voted 10 times China's best watch movement, but usually housed in this model 119 brass case that lacks the quality of the regular Chinese steel case. This is about the closest thing to a Chinese chronometer wristwatch to enter production under the old economic system. Check out the 12mm balance wheel







Shanghai Diamond also used to make 1/100th sec mechanical stopwatches









3. Beijing ZB-1 Shuangling (Double Rhomb) 20 jewels. One of the first 'Chinese Standard' watches. The top-of-the-range was the ZB-1C 40 jewel automatic. This one has been retrofitted with a standard movement of comparable quality from Tianjin. The dial is this gorgeous laquered 'cherry sunburst' like a vintage Les Paul









4. Nanjing SN-1 Zhongshan 9 jewels. A fairly generic Zhongshan, apart from the textured dial. When I muster the courage, I'll maybe repaint it in the style of the Shuangling. I love the way these 'worker's watches' were so often so much more elaborate in style than the more expensive Standard watches. Some kind of reverse snobbery at work I guess.



















Interesting trivia about Chinese 19 jewel watches: when Swiss, Russian, Japanese etc watchmakers up the jewel-count beyond 17, they usually start by putting cap-jewels on the escape-wheel pivot. Not the Chinese though. They jewel-up the mainspring barrel. Occasionally they'll go to 20 jewels on a standard movement by adding one to the winding wheel







Who says Chinese watches are merely derivative?


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## mach 0.0013137

Nice collection there Micheal, I particularly like the Seagull and all interesting case back designs again especially the Seagull


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## raketakat

Very informative Chas







.

Seagull seem to make an effort to finish their movements. Is that an anti-magnetic shield also







? Nice watch







.

That Zuanshi is only the second base metal case I've seen. The "friendship" which starts this thread also has one.

The Shuangling has a dial like a "conker" - very nice  .

On his 75th birthday I gave him a 1930 (the year he was born) gold French 15 jewel watch that I'd spent a year working on.

In return he SOLD me a 1950's Phenix. I still haven't got it to run well...


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## chris l

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Distinctive
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> [attachmentid=5471]


me too; very individual... now how do we all get hold of them. Hint. Hint.


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## raketakat

chris l said:


> me too; very individual... now how do we all get hold of them. Hint. Hint.


Roy has spoken







. I think he has enough to keep him busy







.


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## raketakat

Sea-gull multidial. A cheap one of t'bay.

Yes I have gone mad







.


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## mach 0.0013137

My latest Chinese, a freebe from *`The watch sanctuary - a caring home for unloved, abused and neglected timepieces`* thanks Ian









*The `Friendship` Watch, ZSE 17 Zuan Movement*


















*ZSE 17 Zuan(Jewels) movement*










The crown...










BTW compare the movement with this one from one of my Sekondas...










Note that there is no `Made In....` on the dial, another Chinese movement maybe?


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## mach 0.0013137

Found this while browsing the bay....

[attachmentid=5566]

Ignoring the chinese characters, why the `eck are some of the time periods so odd?


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## raketakat

I must confess that I've bought one of those novelties Mac







. Tinny case with a tiny, plastic, quartz module and plenty of spacer







.

I've not fathomed it yet







. There may be nothing to fathom  .

Your little photo essay on the Sekonda is interesting. I assumed that they had Poljot 17 Jewel movements with the date wheel removed







.

Maybe you should post it on WUS and see what they think  .


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## mach 0.0013137

raketakat said:


> I must confess that I've bought one of those novelties Mac
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> . Tinny case with a tiny, plastic, quartz module and plenty of spacer
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> I've not fathomed it yet
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> . There may be nothing to fathom  .


You`re probably right there Ian











> Your little photo essay on the Sekonda is interesting. I assumed that they had Poljot 17 Jewel movements with the date wheel removed
> 
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> Maybe you should post it on WUS and see what they think  .


Maybe Micheal (Chascomm) can shed some light on the matter









I have also seen this model on ebay, with `Made in USSR` on the dial , I presume that did have a Poljot movement.









I bought mine new from a jewelers in 2004 (for the princely sum of Â£17.50) although I suspect it was probably NOS


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## Chascomm

mach 0.0013137 said:


> My latest Chinese, a freebe from *`The watch sanctuary - a caring home for unloved, abused and neglected timepieces`* thanks Ian
> 
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> *The `Friendship` Watch, ZSE 17 Zuan Movement*
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> *ZSE 17 Zuan(Jewels) movement*


ZSE indicates a Chinese Standard movement made by the Shanghai *Number 2* Watch Factory



> The crown...


and further proof here; the logo of Baoshihua brand, produced by the aforementioned.

I wonder if this Friendship model was a special edition produced by several of the factories, or whether it is the creation of some redialler. The style is definitely inspired by the Chistopol-built Druzhba/Youyi/Friendship watches of the late 1950s.



> BTW compare the movement with this one from one of my Sekondas...
> 
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> Note that there is no `Made In....` on the dial, another Chinese movement maybe?


If I hadn't seen what was inside, I would have guessed a Poljot or Zarja movement! The style is pretty similar to the late 1980s Sekondas with Raketa 19jewel 2609NA or Luch quartz 2356. The lack of 'Made in USSR' label is a warning though. Then again, Russian Sekondas were made for about a year before Sekonda went Asian.

Of course with no markings, there is just no telling which of several dozen possible factories this movement came from.


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## mach 0.0013137

Thanks for the info Micheal, one thing I`ve noticed about the Friendship dial is that the hammer & sickle appears to be within a subseconds dial even though the watch has a centre seconds hand









Regarding the Sekonda AFAICS there is nothing printed on the movement apart from `17 Jewels` and I don`t remember seeing a Soviet movement like this one









BTW I`ve just found the sellers photo of my Shangcheng`s movement, do I understand correctly that this is a Chinese standard one?

[attachmentid=5568]


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## Chascomm

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Thanks for the info Micheal, one thing I`ve noticed about the Friendship dial is that the hammer & sickle appears to be within a subseconds dial even though the watch has a centre seconds hand


The Soviet watch after which this one was styled had a subsidiary-seconds Pobeda movement. So I guess the Chinese dial maker just filled the gap with something appropriate.



> Regarding the Sekonda AFAICS there is nothing printed on the movement apart from `17 Jewels` and I don`t remember seeing a Soviet movement like this one


That's right. If you see a Russian brand watch with this movement (or the skeleton version) then it's not entirely Russian.

Sekonda was established in 1966 by ChasProm, the Soviet watch industry agency, as an export label for the entire Soviet watch industry, however from the mid-1980s Sekonda UK started supplementing their model range with quartz watches sourced from Japan, Hong Kong and Taiwan (earlier Soviet Sekondas had been assembled in Hong Kong). After the USSR collapsed, the watch industry was broken up, and about a year later, Sekonda stopped buying from Russia and Belarus. None of those 1992-93 models were labelled 'Made in Russia', suggesting perhaps that with ChasProm no longer calling the shots, Sekonda was reluctant to reveal the origins of their watches. I remeber noticing the history page on their website managed to avoid all reference to the USSR or Russia. Recently they have started selling watches with the Chinese Standard skeleton, however until I saw your Sekonda, I was unaware of how far back they had been using _mechanical_ (rather than just quartz) movements from China.



> BTW I`ve just found the sellers photo of my Shangcheng`s movement, do I understand correctly that this is a Chinese standard one?
> 
> [attachmentid=5568]


Yes, that's a standard movement. I reckon this must be a decent quality watch because it has an antimagnetic shield, which is uncommon on ordinary Chinese watches.


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## Chascomm

Some more embarassing movement scans; Sea-Gull ST6 and ST16.

The uncased movement is the ST6, mainstay of the fake-Rolex industry. Notice that the base movement is a mere 19mm in diameter. The original ST6 was introduced around the same time that Tianjin watch factory was launching their Sea-Gull export brand (mostly powered by the redoubtable ST5). AFAIK, the ST6 was China's first export woman's watch. Much later the factory saw a market for a cheap automatic movement for both male and female watches. This is the man version, with an oversized dial plate with oversized date disc and and oversized rotor for that big manly feeling. It is quite nicely put together but ultimately it is a fragile little movement with a tiny balance and average timekeeping.

The ST6 auto is still a big seller for Sea-Gull, but more often their clients prefer to use a bigger movement. Pictured here is the ST16. A thoroughly modern movement in comparison to the ST6. It is an in-house design but the layout is basically copied from the Miyota 8205/8215 in the position and size of all the bits, and the big top plate that holds the winding mechanism onto the movement as a fully integrated component. However the big difference is that this movement uses a Seiko 'magic-lever' style winding system. So the whole movement is very simple and efficient. A bit of a shame the the balance is so small, but that's true of the Miyota, too.


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## mach 0.0013137

Chascomm said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info Micheal, one thing I`ve noticed about the Friendship dial is that the hammer & sickle appears to be within a subseconds dial even though the watch has a centre seconds hand
> 
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> The Soviet watch after which this one was styled had a subsidiary-seconds Pobeda movement. So I guess the Chinese dial maker just filled the gap with something appropriate.
Click to expand...

So Micheal, if I understand correctly my `*Friendship*` watch is a redialed version of a `*Baoshihua*` brand watch made by the *Shanghai Number 2 Watch Factory* fitted with a 17 Jewel Standard movement made by the same factory and the dial is a copy of an earlier Pobeda









Any idea where the redialing was done (in China hopefully) and by whom?









I`m not bothered that it may not be original I really like it anyway











> Regarding the Sekonda AFAICS there is nothing printed on the movement apart from `17 Jewels` and I don`t remember seeing a Soviet movement like this one
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> That's right. If you see a Russian brand watch with this movement (or the skeleton version) then it's not entirely Russian.
Click to expand...

Woodford (an old Englsh firm of clock makers) recently branched out into watches with two ranges, one with ETA movements and the other Chinese?

[attachmentid=5583]

[attachmentid=5584]



> BTW I`ve just found the sellers photo of my Shangcheng`s movement, do I understand correctly that this is a Chinese standard one?
> 
> [attachmentid=5568]
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's a standard movement. I reckon this must be a decent quality watch because it has an antimagnetic shield, which is uncommon on ordinary Chinese watches.
Click to expand...

I must say I`m impressed with it`s quality and it keeps good time, one odd thing though is that the crown appears to be unplated brass









BTW interesting info on the Seagull automatics


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## Chascomm

mach 0.0013137 said:


> So Micheal, if I understand correctly my `*Friendship*` watch is a redialed version of a `*Baoshihua*` brand watch made by the *Shanghai Number 2 Watch Factory* fitted with a 17 Jewel Standard movement made by the same factory and the dial is a copy of an earlier Pobeda
> 
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> Any idea where the redialing was done (in China hopefully) and by whom?


 No idea. I've seen a redialled Xihu from Hangzhou with that identical dial design. The dial could be made just about anywhere. The bigger question is; why bother? It's a fun sort of homage (dare I say like a Waving Mao), but it's hardly a serious fake. There's no special caseback or anything, just a straight redial.



> Woodford (an old Englsh firm of clock makers) recently branched out into watches with two ranges, one with ETA movements and the other Chinese?
> 
> [attachmentid=5583]
> 
> [attachmentid=5584]


I'm sure I've seen a Sekonda on ebay recently that looked identical to that. I'd be interested to know what part of the finished product is actually by Woodford.

But to their credit, they're using a 19 jewel version of the Standard skeleton. While I'm not convinced of the benefit of jewelling the mainspring, the very fact that the manufacturer bothered to do it is a good sign that they care about the finished product. Many of the skeletons out there are truly shocking (my local watchmaker has some horror stories).


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## johnbaz

hi chas

here are some more chinese ones-



















and one really bad one-










regards, john.

ps, sorry for the poor quality pics


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## Chascomm

johnbaz said:


> hi chas
> 
> here are some more chinese ones-


That skeleton barrel is a nice feature. What is your impression of the quality of these? And do you have any photos of the dial side?



>


Wow! That's quite a haul of profoundly cheap watches!

It is worth remembering that Hong Kong has only recently been returned to China, so for decades the watch industries of HK and China had virtually no contact. The first major contact was after the beginning of Chinese economic reform, a flood of lower-quality Standard movements flooded into HK to sweep away the low-grade Swiss parts previously used.

Generally vintage (late '50s to late '80s) Chinese watches are of significantly higher quality than HK watches made in the same period. The modern Chinese watch industry seems to be a synthesis of these two traditions i.e. industrial muscle and quality watchmaking tradition combined with production shortcuts and aggressive marketing.

I can see a _real_ Chinese watch amongst that lot. Do you have a closer shot?



> and one really bad one-


Actually that's an East German Ruhla calibre 24-32. That's the first I've seen that is marked as foreign-assembled. What's it in?

Those sort of markings are more common on cheap Swiss pin-levers used in the Hong Kong watch industry. The one that made me laugh was a Hong Kong watch with a Baumgartner movement signed "Swiss Watch Company, Seoul".

My favorite modern Chinese watch dial signature is "Geneva, China"









Oh yeah, I just remembered, my Poljot-powered Hong Kong pocket watch has the inside of the case marked "Swiss Metal Ware, Hong Kong".


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