# Removing Rusted Stem



## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Hey folks - Happy Christmas!!

I've got an old Longines pocket watch (1897) that I want to try and overhaul and restore. I'm kind of falling at the first hurdle though as I can't get the movement out of the case as the stem is rusted just situ. This model has a pin set and this to appears to be rusted. The crown has broken of level with the top of it's entry place into the case so I have nothing to get hold of.

I've got some Horosolve rust remover, some wd-40, some 3-1 penetrating oil and some Elma 1:9 watch cleaning solution. Quite a bit of the movement has got rust on it so could do with going in a bath of Horosolve but I was planning on taking the movement to bits and soaking the individual parts. As I can't get the stem or pin set out, I'm a bit stumped. Should I just soak the rusted parts in 3-1 and then try and remove them? Or put the whole watch (including the case) in Horosolve?

Thanks everyone

Andy


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

A pisture of the watch?

You can dissassemble the movement without getting it out of the case. Thus You can get to the stem and take the movement out... If the steel patrs a so rusted, especially pinions of the train, there is no point to try to repear this movement. Yes, new parts can be made, or parts from a donor movement may sometimes fit, but for making parts are needed skills and mashines, and it will be probably easier to repair trhe donor movement then the rusted one... The rust is not somethinf that can be cleaned off. Only if it is just on the surface, then can get off. If it is old and deep, nothing will help but relacing parts.


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Sorry, ever thought about pictures! Here's a couple- not sure if these help at all?



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https://flic.kr/p/2i54T8p


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https://flic.kr/p/2i54T8p


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https://flic.kr/p/2i54T8p


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https://flic.kr/p/2i54T8p


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https://flic.kr/p/2i54T8p


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https://flic.kr/p/2i58hRe


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https://flic.kr/p/2i54T8p


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https://flic.kr/p/2i58hRe


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https://flic.kr/p/2i54T8p


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https://flic.kr/p/2i58hRe


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https://flic.kr/p/2i54T8p


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https://flic.kr/p/2i58hRe


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https://flic.kr/p/2i54T8p


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https://flic.kr/p/2i58hRe


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https://flic.kr/p/2i54QFR


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

So I dropped a few drips of penetrating oil onto the wheels on the back of the movement (crown wheel and ratchet wheel) and all the other gears, pivot holes, etc. that I could see but it was still all gummed up. So I dropped another few drips onto the screw holding the click and also dropped a few drips down the space left by the top of the broken winding stem. Left overnight and tried again.

Releasing the click got things moving! Both the ratchet wheel and crown wheel turned and now everything seems to be moving. However, I still can't get the movement out of the case as I can't pull out the stem (Should it just pull out? Or is something else going to be holding it back?). Also, this movement has a pin set and that's held fast too. The good news is, I've been able to remove the tiny screw that holds the stem in place.

What's my next step? Is there anything else I can do to get the movement out of the case? Or should I just dismantle it from within the case? Should I be able to undo the screws holding the crown wheel and ratchet wheel from the back of the movement?

Thanks again folks.

Andy


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

Hi Andy,



First, You need to unscrew the screw with green arrow and then to remove the wheel that is held by the screw. Then You need to unscrew the screws with red arrows. and then to lift and remove the whole bridge, that is held bu this screws. Then You will have access to the stem and it will go off... As I said, this movement is verry rysty. Disassemble the transmission and check the pinions and pivots. Probably there is no point to try to do something to this movement. For sure You need new mainspring, winding stem, the wheels of the remontoir, balance staff, and who knows what else...


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks Neven. Agree this is probably shot, but figure it's good practice working on the movement anyway!

Thanks for the advice ref the next steps, I'll get on to that tomorrow. The top of the red screws in the image above is seized pretty solid so I have been feeding it penetrating oil all day and hoping it will be freed up by tomorrow.

Thanks again - really appreciate your help.

Andy


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Wow... Now you know why I never try and repair old watches. :laugh:

Amazingly detailed advice there from a Forum member; makes me feel all warm inside. And good luck with that Longines, Brahma.


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## vinn (Jun 14, 2015)

Brahma said:


> Thanks Neven. Agree this is probably shot, but figure it's good practice working on the movement anyway!
> 
> Thanks for the advice ref the next steps, I'll get on to that tomorrow. The top of the red screws in the image above is seized pretty solid so I have been feeding it penetrating oil all day and hoping it will be freed up by tomorrow.
> 
> ...


 the screw holding that gear "may be a left hand thread" ? vin


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

vinn said:


> the screw holding that gear "may be a left hand thread" ? vin


 Actually no, only the screw of the crown wheel (the smaller one) is with left hand thread.


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## vinn (Jun 14, 2015)

nevenbekriev said:


> Actually no, only the screw of the crown wheel (the smaller one) is with left hand thread.


 good show.!


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Hello folks.

Took ages for the penetrating oil to release the screws holding the bridge and the ratchet wheel in place, but finally got them out. The bottom screw in Nev's picture wasn't screwed in - not sure if the screw is too small or there is no thread inside? There is some rust staining under this bridge too.

In this picture, I have circled too issue areas - red being the end of the winding stem; this is rusted solid. I can't pull the stem out because it's rusted to the sleeve (is that the right name?) but once I take the train wheels out, I'll be able to remove it from inside.





This next picture is the front and you can see the rust again and in the red circle, it's quite bad. The component on the right in the circle I think is the Pin set;



Here is the Longines bridge removed, also with some rust staining on front and back.





What is next now? I'm assuming the remaining bridge is the next to come out?

Thanks all for reading all of this and for your ongoing help.

Andy


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Should also say that I took the crown wheel out too. Unfortunately, the screw head broke off so I had to use a sharp pair of tweezers and gently turn what was left until it came out.


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

Hi Andy,



The screw on the picture, You only need to turn (unscrew direction) it`s head until the part that is cut gets aligned with the plate. Then just press the movement near this screw and it will get out of the case. The stem and rusted wheels on it will remain on the case.

The barrel with mainspring is ready to get off. You need to unscrew the screws of the transmition bridge and take the bridge off, then the wheels will be ready to get off. The center wheel will stay on plate until You take off the cannon pinion, which is so rusty that it will probably break into pieces rather then get off...

The pivots of the wheels may be rusty too, and if so, they will not get off out of stone holes easy, pay attention not to bend the wheels, just turn them slightly, this to avoid breaking the stones...

As I said, it will be very hard to repair this movement, unless a donor movement if found, but then it will be easier to repair the donor rather... But, everything is possible, please take a look here

https://strelki.info/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=7400&p=69520&hilit=medea#p69520

https://strelki.info/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=7602&p=71384&hilit=medea#p71384

https://strelki.info/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=7686&p=72068&hilit=medea#p72068

This is in Bulgarian, but You still can see the pictures... This was 7-8 years ago - then I had almost no expirience, but a lot of naked enthusiasm instead... And I thought that already know everything... Now I see, that most things are done wrong, and today I can do it much easier and faster... Now I have experience and knowledge, but much less enthusiasm...


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks Nev!

Great reply from you again - lots of info. I thought that the screw you've highlighted was used to lock the movement in the case - I've tried lining it up like you suggest but the movement still won't come out. It rocks back and forth a tad but I can't get it out - the rusted up stem seems to be encrusted around the clutch wheel. Do I have to use a bit of force here?

I've got a screw on that bridge that won't budge either. I've filed up and sharpened a bigger screwdriver to get a better grip (I've got big hands and sometimes I can't get a grip on the little screwdrivers) and have been soaking it with penetrating oil for a couple of days to try and free it. Was thinking about putting my soldering iron on and using a bit of heat to see if I can get it out?

I think that the main spring barrel can come out now - I think I can ease it out from under the wheels and bridge. Is that ok to do? Could I damage any pivots by doing this? Or should I wait until the bridge is out?

Thanks again Nev - really appreciate your help. I know this watch might not be repairable, but is good fun learning with!

Andy


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

Just align the screw that holds the movement and aply pressure near the screw. The movement will come out. If needed - aply more pressure. If the stem wont get free from the movement, then let it break, it is so rusted that is useless.

There is no unrepairable watch. Every single part may be produced from 0. All needed for that is a lathe with milling attachment, and of course - skills to use it the right way. But this is a time consuming and it will never pay off, because this type of watches are not expesive. But one can do it for his own pleasure as much as hi likes...


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Hey folks and Happy New Year!!

I finally managed to get the main bridge out- after loads and loads of penetrating oil. Strangely, neither screw came out rusted! But there we go.

Here's a picture of the movement without the main bridge .....



I've labelled the wheels - hopefully I've got this right? Only my third wheel has a pinion on the top of it - which is different to what I expected? Anyway, I can't get the second wheel out - it wobbles but will not come free- I think it might be rusted to the canon opinion? I finally managed to unscrew the retaining screw that was holding the movement in the case and bingo! I got the movement out! 
As has been predicted, this movement has almost certainly had it but I'd like to keep dismantling as a learning exercise. So, can I drop it in some Horosolve Horelex Rust Remover now to try and get the worst off? Or will this stuff melt / dissolve / damage any jewels still in place on the movement?

Thnaks everyone,

'Andy


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

Happy new year!

OK, so far-so good! Now You must remove all wheels, except the second wheel. All they are free and nothing holds them, but the rust on the pivots. The canon pinion holds the second wheel and it is so rusted that it seems that will rather break then go off. You should hold it in a pin vice and try to rotate the wheel forward and back, hoping this will loose the rust and the pinion will get off. If the canon pinion breaks, no problem, it is ruined any way. Remove the balance bridge with balance. Careful with the hair spring! Remove the lever bridge and the lever. Open the barrel and show the mainspring inside.

There is no point to try to solve the rust, unless it is fresh and only on the surface. The rust is not something dirty that can be cleaned off. Yes, the bridges and plate - they are made from brass and they can be cleaned easily as the rust does not affect them. But the pinions and the other steel parts are affected in the way that the steel is partially turned to rust and if the rust is cleaned, then pits and craters will be on the surface… But, take the wheels out and do some photos and show them here to evaluate the condition... Nothing in the world will solve the stones. The impulse jewel on the balance roller and the paletts on the lever are glued with shellac and it can be solved by alcohol and some other solvents, but it is easy to apply new shellac if this happens. The stones in this type of watches are very easy to break and it is not easy to replace them - be careful


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

Are you not able to remove the movement from the case ? It'll help you quite a bit.

At this point you'll only be able to remove the 3rd wheel and maybe the 4th... You should also be able to remove the whole balance ensemble... Or is that one stuck ?

Could you dab some rust remover on the stem and its gears to try and free it out of the movement ?


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks for your replies gents.

So should I soak the movement in the Horosolve Horelex Rust Remover before I do anything? And just to confirm, I can soak the movement in the rust remover and this won't harm the jewels? Sorry - nervous about this! (Stupid question, are the jewels *real* jewels / stones? They're not a man made material?!)

I understand the pallet jewels are attached by shellac - what do I need the alcohol for? Should I be dissolving the shellac and taking the pallet stones out and regluing them afterwards?

Will try and get better photos of the wheels and mainspring. As far as the wheels are concerned, are they made from brass with the centre column made from steel? With the pivots turned? Or are the centre columns made from brass too with the pivots turned and added?

Movement is out now Gimli - I could try adding a little drop of rust remover to the pivots and canon pinion if this would work?

Thanks again


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

Noo don't soak THE WHOLE movement!

The jewels/rubis are lab-made, not the kind you dig out in Africa. They're a bit different and specially made for watches. Chemicals can harm such jewels, yes.

Yes, better photos will be good.

I was saying that you could lightly dab just the stem and the gears "glued" to it to try and free it, not the entire movement. Not all gears are the same. Yours are brass with the pinion being steel, I guess. Do the gears not wiggle around ?


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## vinn (Jun 14, 2015)

Brahma said:


> Hey folks and Happy New Year!!
> 
> I finally managed to get the main bridge out- after loads and loads of penetrating oil. Strangely, neither screw came out rusted! But there we go.
> 
> ...


 a victory for penitrating oil. vin


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

The stones/jewels are synthetic jewels. In the worst case (in the cheap movements) they are made of simple glass. Here they are synthetic rubies or sapphires or something of this sort. Believe me, no chemical will do harm to them. I didn`t say to solve the shellac, just wanted to warn that alcohol will solve it (but slowly, for hours). I don`t know what is the composition of this rust remover, but the rule is that only the affected part should be dipped, not the whole movement - to minimize the hazard. The tables of wheels are made of brass, and the pinions are made of steel. Pinion is what You call 'center column' , this is one whole part with pivots turned on it. Broken or rusted pivots are the smaller problem, as the pinions can be 'repivoted'






The main problem is when the teeth of the pinions are rusted… Then the pivots must be replaced.

I would disassemble this movement for no more than 5 minutes, and without the penetrating oil.
Yes, I have a lot of experience, and I am not afraid to break something - I can make all parts of this movement if needed.
Here disassembling is going on so slowly mainly because of the indecision of the topic starter…


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

nevenbekriev said:


> ...The main problem is when the teeth of the pinions are rusted… Then the pivots must be replaced...


 Sorry, mistake... Not the pivots, the whole pinions...


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Have Not been well for the last little while so have not been able to work in this. But I'm back now! Thanks again for your replies - really appreciate it.

Nev you say "I would disassemble this movement for no more than 5 minutes, and without the penetrating oil." What do you mean by this? Just want to clarify my next steps.

1. Before I do anything else, should I put everything in the ultrasonic bath and give it all a clean? (In the hope that this might free up the canon pinion / second wheel?!)
2. If the answer to (1.), above is "yes", should I just use tap water? Or the Elma Ultra Clean Ultrasonic Cleaner that I have?
2. I can't dip the canon pinion / end of the second wheel in rust remover - the outer part of this part of the movement sits slightly proud so I'm a bit stuck. Would it be ok to just drip a few drops of rust remover on the bit I think is rusted? Or just put the whole thing in the rust remover - if it won't destroy the jewels?

Thanks again,

Andy


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## vinn (Jun 14, 2015)

nevenbekriev said:


> Just align the screw that holds the movement and aply pressure near the screw. The movement will come out. If needed - aply more pressure. If the stem wont get free from the movement, then let it break, it is so rusted that is useless.
> 
> There is no unrepairable watch. Every single part may be produced from 0. All needed for that is a lathe with milling attachment, and of course - skills to use it the right way. But this is a time consuming and it will never pay off, because this type of watches are not expesive. But one can do it for his own pleasure as much as hi likes...


 yes the winding stem has to be retracted or removed. if you have good penitrating oil, it will come out. vin


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

Hi Andy,

What, only the second wheel now has left on the plate? OK then.

1. Yes the ultrasonic bath helps.

2. If penetrating oil was applied and some of it has get in between the canon pinion and the shaft, then water will not help, as the oil will repel it. You can use petrol or the Elma solution.

3. See, the rust removers contain acids. They will attack the steel, regardless the inhibitors that are in the solution to prevent it. Rust remover will act on the surface, but will not penetrate in between the pinion and the shaft. Yes, You can drip a drop on the place, but I don`t believe that it will help.

4. I will say it for the 3th time - the only way to destroy the jewels is to break them mechanically.

Now seriously…

May be using the ultrasonic bath will help to extract the canon pinion unbroken till the end of this year. But for sure You will losе my interest until then…

This cannon pinion is ruined by the rust much far beyond the point of no return. Take some pliers and squeeze it, and then squeeze it again in direction 90 degr. against the first time. Thus it will break or loose enough to get off.

Take pictures of the arbors of the wheels and show them…


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Hi Nev.

Thanks for keeping with me! Yes, The other wheels all came off fairly easily - just this centre wheel that's stuck. Understand what you say about the canon pinion - will get on to that today and see what happens.

Whenever you use the Ultrasonic bath, do you always give the parts a quick dip in petrol or IPA to rinse? Is there an order that you should do things with the Ultrasonic? e.g.



First bath - put everything in just water


Second bath - put everything in Elma Ultra Clean Ultrasonic Cleaner


Third bath - rinse in petrol or IPA


Do you run all of the above through a 10 minute Ultrasonic cycle?



nevenbekriev said:


> I will say it for the 3th time - the only way to destroy the jewels is to break them mechanically.


 The reason I asked again about the jewels, is because on another site I raised a question about jewels and had a response that emphatically stated not to put any solution like rust remover on the jewels as it would dissolve them! He stated the jewels were not really stones but were created in a lab! I will go with your advice anyway, Nev. And will aim to try and get some pictures.

Thanks again,

Andy


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

I've managed to get some photos of the pivots and pinions of the third, fourth and escape wheels. It looks as though the pinion has had it on the third wheel.

*Escape Wheel*





*Third Wheel*





*Fourth Wheel*





Here is the movement now, outside the watch. I've been dripping a little penetrating oil into the screw that holds the balance assembly in place - hoping that will be freed in the next day or two


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## vinn (Jun 14, 2015)

Brahma said:


> Hi Nev.
> 
> Thanks for keeping with me! Yes, The other wheels all came off fairly easily - just this centre wheel that's stuck. Understand what you say about the canon pinion - will get on to that today and see what happens.
> 
> ...


 what other site?


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

Hi Andy,

This, about the stones, that they said on the other site is bull****… The watch jewels are synthetic stones, they are made in conditions of very high pressure and temperature. They have the same chemical composition and similar physical properties as real stones, but much less in price.

I don`t have ultrasonic bath and believe that if for example Abraham Breguet didn`t have one, then I must be capable to do without it too… Any way, the first bath must be in the cleaning solution, the second in clean water, the third in alcohol (90% spiritus vini), and the last In petrol. Only the first bath is in ultrasonic device. The water is only for rinsing from the cleaning solution and this must be as short as possible to avoid rust development. The alcohol is to solve the water that is left on parts…

I don`t see clearly on the picture - are the teeth of the escape wheel affected and damaged?

The pivot of the forth wheel, where the seconds hand must be, is damaged. Other vice, the arbors seems to be not so damaged and may be it will be possible to polish them with sharp wooden stick and some polish…

What is inside the barrel?


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## Brahma (Aug 18, 2011)

Hi Nev.

Thanks Nev - I won't worry about the jewels then!

So today's update. I've released the screw holding the balance assembly onto the bottom plate and removed the hairspring. The pallet fork looks ok (I think) but I think the balance staff has definitely had it.







What about the hairspring - is the reusable?



Here's the barrel - front/back and open







This is the bottom plate now with just the centre wheel left. I'm going to put it through the Ultrasonic bath tomorrow and then soak it in the rust remover. I've tried to break the canon pinion as you suggested, and it did break away, but I still can't free the wheel.



On the dial side, how should these wheels and springs in the red circle come free? There are no screws - should they just prise off? Or am I missing something?



Thanks again, Nev.

Andy


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## nevenbekriev (Apr 21, 2019)

OK now, the pivots of balance staff are broken - it was clear from the beginning. Other vice I would advice You that the first thing to do is to remove the balance assembly from the movement…

The hairspring - I am not sure if it is bent or there is some kind of overlap there. No mater what - it is repairable and for one with enough experience it is a piece of cake… I see too there is some liquid on it - I hope it is no water!!! I don't see if there is rust on hairspring. If so, it can be a dirty rusty water that has dried there, and it will clean, or, the hairspring itself is rusted… A rusted hairspring will result in manner that the watch will lose time, and even if this is compensated in some way, the rust will continue to develop in time and the effect of losing time will increase.

The canon pinion broke but it is steel in place? Grab it with some tool for the teeth of it's arbor and rotate the wheel. I expect that the the shaft, the shaft neck of the bearing and the arbor of the wheel are damaged… The bad thing here is that even if they are OK, You will need a canon pinion. If You manage to find one, it will not fit to the shaft. And if You try to replace the whole wheel with the arbor and canon pinion together, it may not fit to the holes (the bearings) in the plate and the bridge…

The mainspring and the arbor in the barrel look amazingly clean! But no rust on the mainspring is acceptable. You need to take mainspring out of the barrel. First remove the arbor - rotate it in direction, opposite to spring winding so the hook will disengage and take it off. Then lift the internal lap of the spring until it starts to unwind and carefully let it unwind little by little. If You are not careful enough, the spring may fly away, and the drum too, so be prepared… Then You must clean and check the spring and the necks of arbor for rust.

There are 2 screws that hold the parts of the remontoir, that are so rusted, that You can't understand that they are screws.



Ypu will need to punch them out from the other side of the movement.


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