# Time for change



## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

Hi everyone,my name is Carlos Chamaoun and I'm the co-founder of ArloMouN (pronunciation ArloMooN).Just joined the forum to get some more Insight and opinion on our watch.The new watch is called Bold Classic and we would love to hear what you think.













































Watch case: Stainless steel (grade 316L) Water resistant: 5 ATM, 50 meters (new)Glass: Sapphire coated crystal with anti-scratch surface finish (inside)Strap size: 20 mm, best fit for 14 - 23 cm wrists Watch size: 39 mm in diameterWatch thickness: 9.80 mmMovement: SOPROD A2 Swiss Made automaticStrap: full crocodile grain Italian leather, handcrafted. incl. butterfly buckle in case colour. Colours: brown mahogany and black nappaBuckle: Milanese stainless steel. Colours: gold or silverWarranty: 2 years limited warranty against manufacturing defects.


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

First thought is that you should have the courtesy to contact the forum owner @Roy before trying to promote your watch here.

Second thought is that it would have helped to look around the forum first as there is a section specifically for you to promote your watch.

As for the watch...it is OK but similar to many others on the market so much would depend on price as i would need a good reason to buy this from a company I have not heard of rather than one from an established company where I would have more faith in any warranty.

If you send a watch to Roy then he is usually willing to pass it on to forum members to do a review - but it would be an honest review.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

I've moved this thread to this section as I can see no where on your website that you can actually purchase this watch as for trying to get free advertising I'll leave it for others to comment.

"In 2016, We proudly launched our first elegant, distinct and unique timepiece. All of our timepieces are unique and different, but not like any other in the market, we are passionate about our timepieces, and we take the time to choose and design every single part."

I see nothing distinct or unique, sorry.


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

Roy said:


> I see nothing distinct or unique, sorry.


 Me neither, however, I do really like the simple easy to read face a double date window would make it an all out winner for me.


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## deano1956 (Jan 27, 2016)

I like the dial colour/ finish too, I also like the shape of the case and lugs , weather its unique or distinct I am not knowledgeable enough to know , but I also do not like the crown position at 4 but that's just me :biggrin:

deano


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

It`s ok but nothing about it would make me consider buying one & to be honest the lugs put me off a bit.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

Davey won't be interested as it hasn't got a battery. :laugh:

Another delusional, disrespectful chancer. :bash:


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## Caller. (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm sorry, but it leaves me completely cold. The date window looks very isolated, but at the same time is too prominent, for the black dial, it should have been colour coded - white numbers on black background.


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## Littlelegs (Dec 4, 2011)

I've just checked the website and that model is shown at €2050 euros!!! Really? I'm not knowledgable on movement types but there is nothing in that watch that would encourage me to part with that sort of cash for it. Am I missing something? Clear readable dial, but not keen on the angled date window and €2050 euros for a fairly bland watch without a bracelet wtf?


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## relaxer7 (Feb 18, 2016)

At £250 maybe but at £2000 ish jog on kitty.

Think I'd be on preowned Aquca Terra allllll day long at that sort of price. :yes:


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## Davey P (Sep 9, 2010)

ArloMoun said:


> Hi everyone,my name is Carlos Chamaoun and I'm the co-founder of ArloMouN (pronunciation ArloMooN).Just joined the forum to get some more Insight and opinion on our watch.The new watch is called Bold Classic and we would love to hear what you think.


 One problem you might have is the fact that an established brand like Christopher Ward have got watches like this for £495 - £580:










I think if you put it to the vote on here, the vast majority of members would go for the CW - Sorry mate, but you did ask for our opinions :biggrin:


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## Hussle (Jun 26, 2017)

What they said. Not special or different enough for the price tag and I know everyone has to start somewhere but it's a lot to pay for an unknown brand with no history. Sorry


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

I've seen better SKAGEN watches, and I don't like them either :tumbleweed:

I don't have humble opinions - - if you bought it from Amazon or Argos you could always send it back :yes:


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

richy176 said:


> First thought is that you should have the courtesy to contact the forum owner @Roy before trying to promote your watch here.
> 
> Second thought is that it would have helped to look around the forum first as there is a section specifically for you to promote your watch.
> 
> ...


 To be honest my intentions we're only to get your honest opinion on my watch nothing else but I totally understand that it overlaps the idea that it's also a promotional tactic.

I totally understand your point of view, and I would have the same what the problem is a lot of people would rather go with a well-known brand then a unknown brand and at one hand it's understandable but on the other you're not really giving a chance to new watch brands. Price is of course the main reason for people to buy a watch.

I do care for honest reviews and honest opinions, that's why I do appreciate everything people are saying about the watch.

Appreciate the tips


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

Roy said:


> I've moved this thread to this section as I can see no where on your website that you can actually purchase this watch as for trying to get free advertising I'll leave it for others to comment.
> 
> "In 2016, We proudly launched our first elegant, distinct and unique timepiece. All of our timepieces are unique and different, but not like any other in the market, we are passionate about our timepieces, and we take the time to choose and design every single part."
> 
> I see nothing distinct or unique, sorry.


 It's the overall look of the watch. The lugs of the case, the case design, the dial, the position of the crown, the hands and the small details all of these parts play a factor in this and if you cannot see it you're not willing to see it, because you're comparing it with well-known watch brands, but I do appreciate your opinion.



Biker said:


> Me neither, however, I do really like the simple easy to read face a double date window would make it an all out winner for me.


 Thank you I do appreciate it.


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> It`s ok but nothing about it would make me consider buying one & to be honest the lugs put me off a bit.


 That's OK just give it time it will grow on you. If not, don't worry there are more to come.


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

Caller. said:


> I'm sorry, but it leaves me completely cold. The date window looks very isolated, but at the same time is too prominent, for the black dial, it should have been colour coded - white numbers on black background.


 Thank you for your opinion I really appreciate it. There is a black dial and you have the option to go for silver or gold indexes even the option to choose sliver or gold hands.


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

Littlelegs said:


> I've just checked the website and that model is shown at €2050 euros!!! Really? I'm not knowledgable on movement types but there is nothing in that watch that would encourage me to part with that sort of cash for it. Am I missing something? Clear readable dial, but not keen on the angled date window and €2050 euros for a fairly bland watch without a bracelet wtf?


 You for your opinion as well. The price is merely the retail price. only option for us to actually produce this watch will be through crowdfunding the price will then be €917. This is the price that we have almost no profit on. As you know well known watch companies have a big profits on watches and maybe someday when our brand is well known to our customers will be able to price at that stage.

The price would include a watch box, one certificate, two Italian leather straps, one milanese strap and free shipping. So at that price we are really maxing out.



relaxer7 said:


> At £250 maybe but at £2000 ish jog on kitty.
> 
> Think I'd be on preowned Aquca Terra allllll day long at that sort of price. :yes:


 So you're saying it's not really a matter of what you can get for the price more than what you think it's worth, because of our reputation as we do not have. I totally understand that you are comparing it with a well-known brand like so many others.


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

Davey P said:


> One problem you might have is the fact that an established brand like Christopher Ward have got watches like this for £495 - £580:
> 
> 
> 
> I think if you put it to the vote on here, the vast majority of members would go for the CW - Sorry mate, but you did ask for our opinions :biggrin:


 Totally agree, but CW is doing this longer than we have and they can actually keep the cost low with manufactures, but if you are start up you need to actually pay the full price and sometimes additional costs because of the low amount your buying in.



Hussle said:


> What they said. Not special or different enough for the price tag and I know everyone has to start somewhere but it's a lot to pay for an unknown brand with no history. Sorry


 Thanks for your honesty and your opinion maybe someday ;-)


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

mel said:


> I've seen better SKAGEN watches, and I don't like them either :tumbleweed:
> 
> I don't have humble opinions - - if you bought it from Amazon or Argos you could always send it back :yes:


 Thanks for your opinion. This is just the first and hopefully not the last watch our prayers so maybe in the future you will consider it.


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## Littlelegs (Dec 4, 2011)

Not wishing to rain on your parade but I think you'll struggle to sell them at €917 euros. The design isn't anything that isn't already established out there and from research the movement you're proposing to use gets mixed reviews and retails £150-180 for a single unit. I appreciate you have manufacturing costs and costs for the package of straps, box etc but I think given the already available competition your pricing is off. People, myself included, will gravitate to established brands they feel they can trust, at a lower price, rather than take a risk on your product. Even at your reduced price of 917euros I'd be looking at vintage Omega, longines, oris etc. The market is highly competitive and for an unknown entity your pricing isn't. Sorry, but that's my honest feedback.


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

ArloMoun said:


> To be honest my intentions we're only to get your honest opinion on my watch nothing else but I totally understand that it overlaps the idea that it's also a promotional tactic.
> 
> I totally understand your point of view, and I would have the same what the problem is a lot of people would rather go with a well-known brand then a unknown brand and at one hand it's understandable but on the other you're not really giving a chance to new watch brands. Price is of course the main reason for people to buy a watch.
> 
> ...


 I don't think it is up to me/us to `give a chance to new watch brands' but rather up to you to convince us that your watch is the one to buy.

There is a section of the forum especially for new brands to promote their watches "Official Watch Manufacturers Forum" and you might benefit from looking there - especially the Orange Watch Company section. They sent Roy a watch and there is a detailed review by Guest Bruce which may well have encouraged other members to buy one,



ArloMoun said:


> It's the overall look of the watch. The lugs of the case, the case design, the dial, the position of the crown, the hands and the small details all of these parts play a factor in this and if you cannot see it you're not willing to see it, because you're comparing it with well-known watch brands, but I do appreciate your opinion.


 This comes across as very arrogant as most members have seen many different watches and not all are well-known brands. You would see this in the member owner section.



ArloMoun said:


> Totally agree, but CW is doing this longer than we have and they can actually keep the cost low with manufactures, but if you are start up you need to actually pay the full price and sometimes additional costs because of the low amount your buying in.


 This is just a fact of life and the basic problem for anyone trying to enter a well established market. CW only started in 2004 so it shows that a new company can break into the market but perhaps they managed to get together enough finance to allow them to be competitive is their chosen marker sector.

If your watch is similar to a CW in quality and looks then why should I pay more for your watch? Maybe friends and family would pay the extra to help you get started or put some money into the business to enable you to buy in larger quantities and bring the price down.


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## Hussle (Jun 26, 2017)

It seems the price you are asking for the watch is to cover the initial expenses as soon as you can. There are a lot of hidden expenses when starting a business and they can take years to recoup, it's not always just a matter of price it high and get the money back asap.

My latest business is three years old next month and I'm still not making huge profits because I'm still paying off the initial investment. I didn't take a wage for the first year, if I had of doubled my prices then yes I would, but nobody would have bought from me so I would have likely failed.

There are a huge amount of watches out there you're competing with, most more stunning than yours for far less so you either have to have an exceptional product or be good value.


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

ArloMoun said:


> You for your opinion as well. The price is merely the retail price. only option for us to actually produce this watch will be through crowdfunding the price will then be €917. This is the price that we have almost no profit on. As you know well known watch companies have a big profits on watches and maybe someday when our brand is well known to our customers will be able to price at that stage.
> 
> The price would include a watch box, one certificate, two Italian leather straps, one milanese strap and free shipping. So at that price we are really maxing out.


 CW do a very similar looking watch - the CW C9-5 that retails for £1375 but is currently on sale for £687.50.On their website, CW state that they set their selling price at 3 times the cost price and on that basis the C9-5 would cost just under £460. This compares to your figure of £797 which you say allows almost no profit.

The CW has an in-house movement that is COSC certified and they offer a 5 year warranty compared to your 2 years and they also offer a 60 day return for full refund - not sure what you offer.

What makes you consider that your watch would be a better buy that the CW?


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## Hussle (Jun 26, 2017)

If €917 is very close to your cost price then you need to find a more cost effective manufacturer. Are you including all design and r&d costs or just manufacturing costs because that seems incredibly high.


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## Chromejob (Jul 28, 2006)

Well kudos for one point: at least you're trying to be honest about the cost of the watch and its retail price to customers. There's a WUS thread about a startup called Deviate that priced the watch at an absurdly low price for patrons, running into all kinds of stupid New Watchmaker issues, and it's now unclear if patrons will get a watch at all, let alone a working watch, let alone a working watch that matches what the startup proposed. I understand it costs at LEAST US$250-350 per unit to start a limited manufacture of custom designs.

In several posts, you seem to presuming that we are favoring "the well known big watch makers" over humble, upstart You. Boy are you full of s***. Members here are known for buying some really obscure brands, and your host owned a shop and produced limited runs of very personalized watches which are cherished by members. This is not a matter of "David versus Goliath" but companies with reputation, track record, credibility, and someone who is unknown and untested. You want some feedback? Send me one of your watches. I'll wear it for a month. I'll post pics. I'll tell you and other WIS about the experience. Do the same for 5-10 other members. THEN you'll get useful feedback.

You'd better put on your big boy pants and be willing to go above and beyond your comfort zone to earn WIS respect and consideration for your watch concern, ESPECIALLY when you price it well into the high end of established brands. You say you'll lose money at €917? Ouch. I'm wearing a US microbrands limited edition forum special project right now - cost to plank owners US$700, cost to me US$900 plus fee for extra regulation, cost to other sodbusters buying on the secondary market, $1800-2200. The maker got a wee bit of profit (if anything) from those watches, but has reaped worldwide attention and appreciation, including from the timepiece press. Someone's comment about finding more economical manufacturing, take that to heart. I don't encounter many WIS types who are willing to throw away €2000 or the equivalent on an untested watch from a new unknown maker.

Now, about your design. *Meh*. Looks like the Jazzmaster on the sales corner right now. I'm sure I've seen Tissots, Hamiltons, Orises, etc, with very similar look. I'm sure you're proud of your design. But it's derivative. It's conventional. I've seen it before. And Mach's right about those lugs, I'm not sure if I like their elegance, or I'm concerned about the huge space above the strap. I'd have to wear it.

Bravo for registering on the forum and soliciting some honest feedback. But I'd put that hubris that's leaking from between your words into a jar in the cupboard and leave it there until you're an established concern with employees, offices, steady orders and fulfillment. Until then, your claim that we either appreciate your watch's lovely design, or just can't see it, is ephemeral flatulence to my ears.

P.S. Apologies to anyone who just sprayed their port or Earl Grey over their computer's monitor.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

ArloMoun said:


> That's OK just give it time it will grow on you. If not, don't worry there are more to come.


 Ohh no it won`t & no offence but I won`t be holding my breath.


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

richy176 said:


> CW do a very similar looking watch - the CW C9-5 that retails for £1375 but is currently on sale for £687.50.On their website, CW state that they set their selling price at 3 times the cost price and on that basis the C9-5 would cost just under £460. This compares to your figure of £797 which you say allows almost no profit.
> 
> The CW has an in-house movement that is COSC certified and they offer a 5 year warranty compared to your 2 years and they also offer a 60 day return for full refund - not sure what you offer.
> 
> What makes you consider that your watch would be a better buy that the CW?


 Again you guys are comparing a micro band with known brand with a history and customer base. We're trying to achieve a customer base and trying to be something. Well the brand you just mentioned probably has a bigger budget, comparing to our brand as where we have to pay everything out of our own pockets. I don't know if CW designs their own cases or have standard production moulds for this? But in our case its made from scratch and new moulds needed to be made for this, that can also determine the cost price. So it is possible that the case is a standard catalog production and the only thing you're paying for is the design and movement (actually stating that it's an in-house movement, just seems to mean that they took a well-known movement and adjusted it, or am I mistaken?). We also had the option to go for the COSC but the price for this was to high because we needed to be registered in Switzerland and that was a no go anymore. Good constructive watches last longer than the warranties our first intention was to actually to give a life time warranty, but the problem is we don't have that budget yet.

Where just starting out here, trying to make a mark and we understand that you rather go with another brand that you know of, but watch brands started somewhere and eventually they did get the trust and we try to do exactly the same. We are just a different watch brand with different takes on how to produce quality watches and not only in the movement but in every single part.



mach 0.0013137 said:


> Ohh no it won`t & no offence but I won`t be holding my breath.


 Never say never ;-)


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

Welcome to the business world :yes:

Ain't life a bitch..... :laugh:


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

Chromejob said:


> Well kudos for one point: at least you're trying to be honest about the cost of the watch and its retail price to customers. There's a WUS thread about a startup called Deviate that priced the watch at an absurdly low price for patrons, running into all kinds of stupid New Watchmaker issues, and it's now unclear if patrons will get a watch at all, let alone a working watch, let alone a working watch that matches what the startup proposed. I understand it costs at LEAST US$250-350 per unit to start a limited manufacture of custom designs.
> 
> In several posts, you seem to presuming that we are favoring "the well known big watch makers" over humble, upstart You. Boy are you full of s***. Members here are known for buying some really obscure brands, and your host owned a shop and produced limited runs of very personalized watches which are cherished by members. This is not a matter of "David versus Goliath" but companies with reputation, track record, credibility, and someone who is unknown and untested. You want some feedback? Send me one of your watches. I'll wear it for a month. I'll post pics. I'll tell you and other WIS about the experience. Do the same for 5-10 other members. THEN you'll get useful feedback.
> 
> ...


 Well at least we got one point right  What we meant to say was comparison is always been done with watch brands that have a customer base and have a higher budget. We're just starting out we're creating and trying to achieve the best way possible.

We would love honest reviews on our watches especially, by watchmakers. The problem is each sample cost us $1000 dollars to make and for us this is not a option. The reason why is because It's made from scratch (Literally a scratch). So costs are higher, Also because the cases are hand finished, but to get the best cost out of this we need to mass produce, but we can't mass-produce because we don't have the money for it and even if we wanted to make five or 10 this would be too much money (So if you have a big boy pants with deep pockets, we would love to have you as a investor). We did find watchmakers In the area of Amsterdam to actually review our watches but this will take time.

Well I do appreciate your honesty about our watch and trust that this watch is not your taste..at all. Everyone has his own perspective on what it is and what is not. We're just Have our opinion and we just listened to yours.


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## Hussle (Jun 26, 2017)

I understand what you are saying and it may cost $1000 or euros to produce one sample but that does not mean the watch is worth that to a purchaser. The sample price is not a true reflection of the final selling price, that would come from the mass produced cost and reputation, desirability, history, quality etc. Therefore you can't say the RRP is $2000 because it cost $1000 to make one.

The tooling, R&D, machine and design costs can't be applied to one watch, if that was the case with every other product then everything would be extremely overpriced, even a pencil!

You need to come back when you have the money to mass produce, send samples and apply a realistic price to your watch.


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## Chromejob (Jul 28, 2006)

So… you're applying the entire R&D costs for samples to every watch you sell??? That's a hell of a profit margin.


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## Caller. (Dec 8, 2013)

Probably worth introducing at this stage, the story of Deaumars very successful kickstarter watch and why they then walked away from the business. I'm sure a few members here have this watch? I was close to buying it myself.

Also worth noting the cost attached to getting a plug in the popular on-line review sites!

http://www.watchthoughts.com/2016/12/29/i-come-to-bury-deaumar-not-to-praise-it/?utm_source=Deaumar+Watches+Newsletter&utm_campaign=d4c32d2955-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_12_30&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bced4e9265-d4c32d2955-145388530&mc_cid=d4c32d2955&mc_eid=8ad0e4a63b


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## Jeremy Fisher (Jan 28, 2012)

You should really look into changing your business model because I don't think you will succeed if your watch is priced as is.

Unless you plan on competing on cost, as many microbrands do, you should try and create more of a USP for your product. As others have mentioned, your design is rather conventional so it would be difficult for you to compete with other microbrands who offer watches at the fraction of the cost. Even with the higher end Soprod movement factored in, your watches are priced exceptionally high for a microbrand. Steinhart, for example, used to offer Soprod equipped watches at £600-800 (roughly $800 - 1000).

At $2000, you are at a pricepoint where you are competing with an endless list well known, big name brands, such as TAG, Longines, ORIS etc. Newer brands that have managed to penetrate that price point successfully have done so by offering functions and features, such as in house movements and complex complications or unique case materials, not available from dominant brands in the same cost bracket. These generally cost the brands millions of dollars in investment, so this may not be an option for your brand.

I highly recommend looking into the supply chains / business models of other micro brands who have been able to successfully undercut well establish brands whilst offering similar specifications to your product. Because you aren't going to be able to compete at all if your production costs is twice the retail price of competitors offerings.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

:tumbleweed:


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## Rotundus (May 7, 2012)

DarthSmavid said:


> WAY to expensive, more market research next time


 and the horribe lugs , and that crown , and the date window , the straps choice and yeah that PRICE :nono:


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## Kev7950 (Sep 5, 2017)

Way too much, ...way too much, way, goodness I'm speechless !


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

DarthSmavid said:


> WAY to expensive, more market research next time


 We did do the research, and we are making cheaper watchers, but we just started with the expensive one.


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## Biker (Mar 9, 2013)

ArloMoun said:


> We did do the research, and we are making cheaper watchers, but we just started with the expensive one.


 Cheaper or less expensive.. Careful with wording there mate. Any pictures of the more affordable ones?


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

Rotundus said:


> and the horribe lugs , and that crown , and the date window , the straps choice and yeah that PRICE :nono:


 ...Would appreciated if you could also explain why, instead of just saying it's ugly...I posted this to actually get some feedback.



Biker said:


> Cheaper or less expensive.. Careful with wording there mate. Any pictures of the more affordable ones?


 haha, You're right I meant to say less expensive. No real pictures, only 2D designs.


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## Rotundus (May 7, 2012)

ArloMoun said:


> ...Would appreciated if you could also explain why, instead of just saying it's ugly...I posted this to actually get some feedback.


 you wanted feed back i gave it - it was negative , thats the way it goes sometimes.

but ok ... the lugs are horrible because they are horrible , its subjective i know but they lack form and look like a bit of protruding metal had just been sort of bent around to do the job ... the CW pictured earlier has much better imho looking lugs.

the crown is too slim , again does not look like a nice feature and i am guessing not be the easiest to manipulate (also bunched up against the lug like that , no!)

the contrasting date window just looks nasty, and its poor positioning really does it no favours. either do it well or not at all.

possibly some people will like the strap - i don't - black leather doesn't really do it for me - something just a touch more original would be better perhaps

and finally the price - given what you are competing against i think your price point an epic fail.


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## ArloMoun (Jun 24, 2017)

Rotundus said:


> you wanted feed back i gave it - it was negative , thats the way it goes sometimes.
> 
> but ok ... the lugs are horrible because they are horrible , its subjective i know but they lack form and look like a bit of protruding metal had just been sort of bent around to do the job ... the CW pictured earlier has much better imho looking lugs.
> 
> ...


 It's more of a negative comment, But I do appreciate the additional feedback. I will take them into consideration and maybe in the near future you will find one of our watches to your liking. ;-)


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Could someone design an emoticon for "fartin' in the wind" please to allow me to comment further?


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## Slim2500 (Jul 10, 2016)

To me it's just another watch nothing stands out that would make me part with over 2000 euros i know it is hard to get going from the start my friend is currently going through the same process although at the moment to keep costs down he has had to look at the far east to obtain cases and dials to his design


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