# Opinions Wanted



## ncon (Sep 14, 2005)

Do any of you have any mechanical experience or experience of serious problems with brand new cars?

I bought a brand spanking new five-door Holden Barina (half way between a Corsa and an Astra) and took delivery of it on June 20th.

Since then, it has had a long list of small problems that it has gone back to have fixed, it has been inconvenient but I am not completely unreasonable and willing to overlook a few small problems as these things do crop up with new cars.

However, it went through a phase of having all the electrics spontaneously cutting out, along with the engine, and power steering. This is no fun in 90km p/h traffic here in Oz, particularly with the way they drive over here. This had happened five-odd times and I consider myself lucky not to have been hurt in all occasions.

I got it back to them, they looked it over they "ran diagnostics" to find no problems with the car or any record or sign of a problem, in fairness, this hasn't happened since. I can't stall the car, even if I tried to (it is a manual, by the way) and in any case, how do you stall a car at 90 km p/h in fifth gear? It is also interesting to note that they have no record of looking at the car for the above reason!!

Yesterday, it started spewing oil, and I do mean spewing. A very local mechanic took one look at it and said "sell it!" I have only had it four months! Holden have taken it back and found that the timing case and oil pump are screwed! It only went through it's 3000km service a fortnight ago, with no apparent issues!

As you can imagine, my confidence in the car is at an all time low, as well as not really being very happy with the numerous staff that have looked at it and continue giving it a clean bill of health.

Needless to say, I have taken about three days off work (whilst paid a good hourly rate) and am pissed off now.

I have contacted the equivelant of the OFT here, who have asked I put it all to them in writing. They might arrange a licensed mechanic to look at it and decide if it is even "fit for purpose" theoretically they could force them to pay a full refund in extreme cases.

My questions are this

1 - How serious do problems with a new car have to be, for it to be unfit for purpose? (does soembody have to get hurt?)

2 - Are these problems beyond what might be expected from a new car?

3 - Am I being unreasonable?

4 - What action should I take? Push for a refund? If I traded it in, nobody will touch a three month old car, or at least be very suspicious as to why? Could I try and sue for the difference that I lose?

For another 4k I could have had a Honda Jazz ( I wish I had now!)

Below is a picture of the car (it looks quite inoffensive doesn't it!?) His name is Dougal (apparently!)










Any thoughts, comments welcome.


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## Robert (Jul 26, 2006)

What a nightmare for you.









With new cars these days I expect trouble free motoring for at least the period of the warranty. Minor niggles, fair enough but to have the engine cutting out I would would walk into the showroom and hand the keys back.

No idea about your laws etc over there but you may have recourse through your finance company if you used one.



> 4 - What action should I take? Push for a refund? If I traded it in, nobody will touch a three month old car, or at least be very suspicious as to why? Could I try and sue for the difference that I lose?


I would be looking to get the garage to replace it and if that means adding a bit, then I would do it just to get shot of the troublesome one. Ideally a straight swap for another. Why worry if anyone will touch a 3 month old trade-in - their problem not yours.

Could you get Holden to agree to stand by the results of an independent engineers inspection? You would also have to agree to stand by it - difficulty is that, just like the staff who have given it a clean bill of health, the engineer may find nothing wrong with it on the day.

Good luck anyway


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## ncon (Sep 14, 2005)

Thanks Robert,

The warranty on this thing is six years, and it hasn't gone six weeks without a problem. The finance company option is a no no as it is all paid for.

I am collecting it tommorrow and will get in writing a report of the problem itself and what was done to repair it (to make sure that records don't get "mislaid") I am going to play it by ear and see what the OFT here say as I have lodged a formal complaint. Ideally, i'd get another car as it is less hassle but we'll see.

The independant mechanic route is a good idea, but as you say, you could shoot yourself in the foot if it behaves on the day. Unfortunaltely, when it is good, it's very good, and when it's bad it's sodding awful.

Needless to say I won't be going to Holden for a nice V8 Ute anytime soon!

Thanks for the advice, will update as things develop.


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## pauluspaolo (Feb 24, 2003)

That's terrible - as Robert says you'd expect, at the very least, to have trouble free motoring for the duration of the manufacturers warranty. Am I correct in understanding that Holden are made by General Motors, who make/sell Vauxhalls (amongst others) here in the UK?

My friend at work has a Vauxhall Zafira - a people carrier sort of thing, not my cup of gruel at all but I don't have a family to cart around - & that hasn't exactly been trouble free either









I've never bought a brand new car in my life but my dad bought a Lancia Delta when they first came out, at least partly, on the strength of the Delta being named the car of the year in 1980. I was learning to drive at the time (in a diesel Fiesta) & practiced in the Delta - talk about going from one extreme to the other! It was only a bog standard 1500cc Delta (not an Integrale or HF Turbo or anything like that) but my God it was fast compared to the Fiesta - I absolutely loved driving it







But fortunately for my bank balance I didn't have to run/service/repair it ....... it was without doubt the most shoddily built car in the known universe. Everything you've ever heard about Lancia's rotting is unfortunately true - it's beyond me how a car that's so much fun to drive can fall apart so easily







We kept it for ages (well past the manufacturers warranty had expired & mainly beause my dad couldn't afford anything else) & the mechanic who looked after it from then on always said that he thought it was a friday afternoon car - put together by someone late on a friday afternoon who'd rather be anywhere else than at work!

My point being maybe your new car was also built on a friday afternoon?? I'd have lost faith in it too especially as it's still new & has been back to the manufacturer loads of times already - I'd be wanting & asking for either a full refund or a new car.

I wish you all the best of luck & please let us know what happens.


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## strange_too (Feb 19, 2007)

Have you consumer support groups in Aus? Talk to them about your country specific laws about your "sales of goods act" "fit for purpose" etc There must be a law that can help you.


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## pauluspaolo (Feb 24, 2003)

> Unfortunaltely, when it is good, it's very good, and when it's bad it's sodding awful.


On a more constructive note than my last post is there any common denominator about when it does fail/play up i.e. was the weather wet/hot the day before, when it conks out does it make any strange noises, do you drive over any particulay rough roads, get stuck in traffic for ages etc etc?

I'm just thinking that there has to be some cause of the cutting out/stalling & if a component has failed (or is failing) there should really be some other indication of that. It's unusual for a car to be good one day & completely crap the next - there's usually some indication (even on the good days) that all is not as it should be. My Audi for instance had a hot starting problem that could have been by 2 or three things (or combination of those things) - leaking injectors, a faulty thermo time switch, a leaking cold start injector could all cause bad starting.

I've never heard of this model before but it might be worth searching the web (or car forums) for other people who've had problems with these cars - I think it doubtful that you'd be the only person who's had trouble.

As I said before all the very best of luck with this


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

in the uk the motor industry is notorius for getting out of theit liability under the sales of goods act.

imho in answer to your points

1) It's not a quetion of seriousness. The car must be fit for the purpose it is designed to fulfill *but *the customer must give the dealer "reasonable" time to rectify the fault(s). (in the UK anyway) The reasonable part is down to debate and obviously the dealer doesn't want to be left with a lemon and have to give you a new car or your money back. It is also just as difficult for the dealer to get a satisfactory response from the manufacturer esp if they are franchised.

2) Yes, way beyond.

3) No, not at all, a car in the shop is not fullfilling it's purpose, I would be jumping up and down by now.

4) Threaten them with bad publicity, trading standard, auto club (if you have any) involvement, consumer groups etc. Tell them you want a full refund + expenses for time and money lost.

5) yes you should have bought he Honda.


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## Guest (Sep 18, 2007)

Vent your spleen here http://www.caradvice.com.au/5/holden-barina-korean-safety/

It probably won't help get your car sorted, but it might make you feel better and hopefully stop someone else from buying one (as long as its not your car they are buying).

Cheers


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## strange_too (Feb 19, 2007)

I remember a problem with VW Golf GTi that the ECU relay was faulty but it gave no faults when plugged into diagnostics. Made it cut out and not start intermittently.

Could be something as simple as that. Or many be the hall sensor or dizzy fault. They need to do something for you though.


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## Mutley (Apr 17, 2007)

ncon said:


> His name is Dougal (apparently!)


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

I've no idea about Holden other than I seem to remember they had a tie up with Ford at one time or was it GM?


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Act through a motor club if you are in one

If not act through a solicitor who knows this type of law

Tell them this is what you are doing, that you have the determination to see this through, and you will take them on

If that doesn't ring your bell, take it to another branch and trade it in for a different model of the same make and say your wife doesn't like the one you got for any reason that you like. Say you dont want to go back to the original place as you dont like the sales staff there


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## ncon (Sep 14, 2005)

Hi all,

Thanks for your responses, they have been pretty helpful in making up my mind as to what to do. I am more than happy to go down the legal route and have decided to talk to Holden first and see what I can come with that way.

That probably won't get me where I want, so I will go down the legal route, the equivelant of the OFT here are about to get involved, so that should get me a bit of clout at least when dealing with them by myself.

I agree, Dougal is a crap name, this is what happens when you let your girlfriend get involved in these things.

Personally, I wanted to buy a V8 pickup, a dog to live on the back, and keep the interior permanently strewn with empty cans of VB! (Honestly!)

Seriously though, my grandfather was the first man to own and bring a Mercedes to the island of Malta, about 800 years ago, and though he doesn't drive it much, it is still roadworthy (and good nick!)

I am aware the Barina hasn't the best rep, but for a brand new car you should have certain expectantions of what to expect. If Holden put their badge to a car then they will be held accountable.

I should be collecting it later today, so will keep you posted.


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## ncon (Sep 14, 2005)

Well, I collected the car yesterday, it was eady at 4pm as promised. I asked for a job sheet to highlight what was wrong and what has been done.

I have attached the section which shows what has been done.










Depressing isn't it, for a car that is less than four months old since new delivery with 4200km on the clock, I wouldn't wish that amount of work on anyones car.

Needless to say, I went to Holden, and explained my displeasure at length. They are not in the slightest bit interested. They reckon that in the event of legal disputes etc, I have no comeback to the dealership and have to take it up with the manufacturer. (I find that hard to believe)

The only thing they will do is buy it back for $10k, when I paid $16k in June, I know cars depreciate, but with the problems I have had, you might think they would try and do better.

The car runs fine today, there is a slight odour of oil, which i expect to disappear in the next day or two. However, the engine does sound different, with a slightly different sound/whine when you accelerate.

I will book it in this afternoon with an independant mechanic, andask him to give it a thorugh looking over electrically and mechanically to see if it is in a reasonable condition or not.

Contacting a solicitor is my next step, while waiting for the OFT to get in touch.

I tortured myself by going to a couple of Honda dealer and even driving the Jazz Vti, they are great little cars at a good price (considering that they are built in Swindon and shipped over) but again, the best trade in for my car is $11K, meaning a Jazz that should cost around $19 will cost me the $16k i paid for the Holden, blus around $6-7k on top (dealers here are very negotiable, but only so far)

Very depressing.......


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## unlcky alf (Nov 19, 2006)

So the Honda dealer is willing to give you a substantially higher trade-in value than the Holden dealer... :*****:

I'd try some consumer groups next.

Do you live near the dealership, and is there public on street parking outside? If the answer is yes to both questions I'd suggest, *if nothing else works*, making suitably sized signs for the windscreen and rear window, and stick photocopies of your receipts, repair lists and engineer's report inside the windows (pavement side) then park it on the street (obeying all legislation) outside the dealership on Saturday morning. Pop inside and tell them that you're going to do this at every opportunity, so that all of their prospective customers can see what they're letting themselves in for, until they resolve the matter to your satisfaction. Make sure that you stick to facts only when you make the signs, avoid anything that could be interpreted as libelous and be reasonable about what you expect from the dealer.

Good luck, I hope you manage to get it sorted.


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## ncon (Sep 14, 2005)

I can probably get $1,500 more from Honda than Holden. :*****: :*****: :*****: :*****: :*****: :*****: :*****: :*****: :*****:

The suggestion of the protest does not sound so daft, I came across one guy who was going to hand out Lemons with "HOLDEN" written on them outside the dealer. That was up in Queensland, and I don't know whether he went through with it or what the result was. Doesn't sound like a bad idea.

The most infuriating thing was that he wasn't really interested and seemed almost qiuetly bemused. Clearly I am not the first person he has come across.

A local mechanic, suggested (quite sensibly) that I wait a week or two for him to inspect the car and do an indepenant report. That'll give the car time to settle and develop and kinks following it's work yesterday.

A solicitor will cost around $275 for a first consultation. It is pricey, and though it might well be worth it, I'm not sure he can do anything the OFT can't, only he will of course do it a lot quicker.

I hate Holden, I really do. They go on here about buying Aussie and buying proud, what a load of cack.

I'm off for a curry with JonW now, as long as he doesn't try and sell me a gorgeous watch, i'll be fine..... i need the money!

Thanks RLT for allowing me to vent off a bit!!!


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Just back from curry and chat (and beers) with Neal and heard all about the DevilDougal...
















I didnt have much more I could add, but hope this get fixed soon... I was kinda hoping Dougal would make a great taxi back from the city after a night out, but im fearing its not to be... damn...

Seriously tho... really sad to hear this had turned out so bad mate


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## ncon (Sep 14, 2005)

Now I am depressed as I realise how worthless the car is........... Thorpey won't even do a straight trade with my Holden for a Sinn U1 - now I know things are bad.


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

Nasty story going on here, real sorry to hear your problems and of course it should never happen on a brand new car nowadays....Holden are GM in Oz.....I believe your vehicle is a rebadged Daewoo....not a good pedigree by any means!

Here in the UK consumer law is that your contract is with the seller.....therefore the dealer, not the manufacturer of the vehicle, but obviously the dealer has a contract with the manufacturer and it is the manufacturers contract to supply "fit for purpose" vehicles to the dealer....but as a consumer bottom line is the dealer has the responsibility to put right faults on vehicle purchased from them, I would have thought it is much the same in Oz....you need to get in touch with a consumer advice centre there I reckon.

Hope you get some decent resolution to this soon.

Best regards David


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

I am a bit out of touch with the australasian market now but it is possible your Holden could even be a rebadged Suzuki (Swift), at which I would be very suprised by manufacturing faults.....

Best regards David


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

Just had a poke around here at work....your Holden Barina is in fact a rebadged Daewoo Kalos.....a vehicle as relaible as its name is beautiful









Sorry to be a downer......pity it wasn't the first generation Barina as that would have been a Suzuki....the second and third generation were derived from the Euro Corsa (not much better than the Kalos







)

You really need to write out a comprehensive list of faults and when they occured, send it to the dealer and Holden customer relations department asking for a replacement vehicle or trade in value that reflects the inconvenience and stress the whole episode has caused you, either way I reckon your in for a fight I am afraid.....and defibnately get onto trading standards and a consumer association there.

best regards David


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## chris l (Aug 5, 2005)

Also available as a Chevrolet!

Chevrolet Kalos


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

Yes indeed in the UK GM decided to "improve" its value brand Daewoo by changing the name and using the Chevrolet brand which in the states has always been considered a "bread & butter" marque, certainly it has a better image than the Korean Daewoo for sure, but of course the car underneath is exactly the same.....damn shame as it could eventually damage the Chevrolet brand in the UK.....marketing







:*****:









Best regards David


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## ncon (Sep 14, 2005)

Hmmm... I was well aware that the car is built in Korea. The point is a Holden is a Holden and as such there are expectations that it needs to live up to.

Having kust moved here from the UK I am conscious that it is very easy to just bleed money if you are not careful. We could have bought something far more plush should we have so decided; but thought a little fiscal restraint would be wise. The easy money(credit) and rampant materialism of the UK have nothing on some people here, who think a 50" plasma tv is only good enough for the kiddies nursury.

The point I am trying to make is that I did pay good money for a car, and expect it to be likewise. Just because I bought a cheap car, it doesn't mean I ought to have a crap one... that's all.


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

And your absolutley right, I wasn't trying to say "tough you bought a cheap car, you get what you pay for", merely informing you of the likely reason you are having these problems, on any purchased item the consumer should expect and recieve 100% service and "fit for purpose" or else why did they think we bought that item in the first place!

Thankfully these days there are very few "bad" cars in the sense of engineering design and execution, it is more often the implementation and assembly which lets them down..........

Nope, unfortunately nowadays more oftne than not it seems we have to fight for our rights as consumers when things go wrong wether we bought a toaster or a Lamborghini.....less so with the toaster probably









Best regards David


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## ncon (Sep 14, 2005)

Sorry David, I didn't think you were having a pop or anything.

At the end of the day you have to be very vocal or you get nowhere. I will see what comes out of contacting GM. The mechanics side should be fine now as Barry Smith Holden have been all over it. I had the Engine management system looked over yesterday and it is all tickety-boo. As far as I am concerned the slate is clean at the moment and we'll see how it all goes.

The saga will continue!


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## chris l (Aug 5, 2005)

> At the end of the day you have to be very vocal....


Without appearing to be a WBP... 

Been there. Wish I still was.


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