# Fact And Fallacy With Regard To American Railroad Grade Pocket Watches



## Will Fly

I've seen a number of North American watches on the net recently advertised as 'railway' watches or 'railroad grade' when, on closer investigation, it turns out that they aren't. These descriptions, though probably honest but mistaken, are misleading, and I thought it might be useful to describe some of the facts and fallacies around this type of watch as I understand them. Any comments and corrections welcomed!

It's a part of urban folklore that the impetus for creating a railroad grade watch came from a train crash near Kipton, Ohio, in 1891 - caused by a 4-minute error in a conductor's watch - which led to the work of a commission led by Webb C. Ball. However, work on creating watches of good quality for railroad use had been going on long before that - Ball's achievement was to set down a set of watch criteria for adoption by the various railroad companies in the US, and the crash was a spur to that. Ball's commission laid down criteria in 1893.

â€¢ only American-made watches could be used (depending on availability of spare parts)

â€¢ only open-faced dials, with the stem at 12 o'clock

â€¢ minimum of 17 functional jewels in the movement

â€¢ 16 or 18-size only

â€¢ maximum variation of 30 seconds (approximately 4 seconds daily) per weekly check

â€¢ watch adjusted to at least five positions: face up and face down (the positions a watch might commonly take when laid on a flat surface); then crown up, crown pointing left, and crown pointing right (the positions a watch might commonly take in a pocket). Occasionally a sixth position, crown pointing down, would be included.

â€¢ adjusted for severe temperature variance (-30F to +90F) and isochronism (variance in spring tension)

â€¢ indication of time with bold legible Arabic numerals, outer minute division, second dial, heavy hands,

â€¢ lever used to set the time (no risk of having the stem left out, thus inadvertently setting the watch to an erroneous time)

â€¢ Breguet balance spring

â€¢ micrometer adjustment regulator

â€¢ double roller

â€¢ steel escape wheel

â€¢ anti-magnetic protection (after the advent of diesel locomotives)

Mistakes commonly made in selling, advertising these watches:

â€¢ dials were double-countersunk. Not necessarily - Ball himself preferred single countersunk dials as being stronger

â€¢ number of jewels had to be at least 21. Not so - though a 21-jewel watch became the norm in later years

â€¢ dials with railway-style markings - particularly the 'Montgomery' style - denote railroad watches. The dial by itself is no indicator of the watch being railroad grade.

â€¢ Ball watches were made by the Ball Company. Not so - the Ball Watch Co. was responsible for the final setting and regulation of Ball railroad grade watches - but they were made by firms like Waltham, Hamilton and Elgin, and the only indication of the manufacturer was often the serial number.


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## Raptor

What a clear and concise post, well done that man. I am sure

the information will come in handy for anyone looking to

purchase such a timepiece.

I would hazard a guess that this has been prompted by evilbay

sellers advertising watches as Railroad in the vain hope

they will garner higher final prices as has been seen

with the fabled Timex Military wristwatch recently.


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## Will Fly

Yes - I've seen two or three misleading eBay adverts recently. I knew one of the sellers - bought a Bunn Special and a ~Waltham US Military watch from him (both genuine, by the way!) - and pointed out his error with a Hamilton 974 in describing it as a RR grade watch. He was genuinely surprised - thought the dial said it all...


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## rovert

Good explanation , clearly & concisely written. Very interesting too.


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## JWL940

And another +1 from me Will. It will help stop somebody making an expensive mistake not least me who is currently looking for his first RR PW.

I came across this site this morning

http://people.timezone.com/msandler/Articles/ClitheroeRailroad/Railroad.html


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## no8yogi

JWL940 said:


> And another +1 from me Will. It will help stop somebody making an expensive mistake not least me who is currently looking for his first RR PW.
> 
> I came across this site this morning
> 
> http://people.timezone.com/msandler/Articles/ClitheroeRailroad/Railroad.html


very interesting thanks


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## Will Fly

Thanks for the link to the Timezone site - very interesting.

One of the fallacies I should have mentioned is that lever set movements were always railroad movements - not so! It became fashionable around the turn of the century for people's ordinary pocket watches to be lever set - even in hunter cases. I recently sold an 18s Elgin from 1902 that was cased in a hunter case. To set the hands, there was a pry point in the bezel - around 2 o'clock - which, when the bezel was lifted, revealed the lever setting. Weird, or what! The movement in this watch was a bog-standard Elgin, 7-jewel movement - very pleasant but nowhere near RR grade.

I'm happy to say that, included in my collection, are a "B.W. Raymond/Elgin 571", two Illinois "Bunn Specials", a Hamilton 992B and an Elgin "Father Time" - all RR grade and all wonderful watches. However, as time goes on (no pun intended!), I look more and more for watches with perfect dials - no hairlines, cracks, scuffs, chips, etc. - if I can find them. Typical collector's obsession! Mind you, the Ball-Waltham I got recently has the odd hairline or two - but as these are like hens teeth, it didn't matter too much...


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## Shiner

I think what is being discussed here are railroad APPROVED watches. The term 'Railroad Watch' was used by the jewellery and watch trade and is now used by collectors. The railroad industry and the railroaders referred to them as 'Standard Watches' as they were the watches that met the railroads' time service standards. These were watches that were approved for use by the many different railroads( there was I believe well over 50). Some Railroad companies listed watches by name, whilst others just listed requirements. In the early years Pendant set watches were accepted by some Railroads, as were hunter cases, Roman dials and various styles of hands. As time went by different standards were set, but these older watches that were already in service were allowed to remain in service. This was known as 'grandfathering'. So there are railroad approved watches still in existance that to the inexperienced collector would not look anything like the later more well known approved watches. In fact they are much rarer now and just as desirable if not more so.

Railroad 'GRADE' watches are those that were advertised as being able to pass or exceed railroad inspection and were used mainly by railroaders who were not required to submit their watches for inspection.

Some American 12 size watches were equal or superior to many railroad 18 and 16 size watches. Imagine how much skill was required to make these much smaller movements with 23 jewels, motor barrels running in jewels, full gold polished trains, raised gold jewel settings held in by two or three screws, double roller escapements, micrometric regulators, adjusted to five or six positions etc. etc., They were masterpieces and were more expensive when new but can be bought now for less than some of the more popular railroad approved watches.


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## Shiner

This is a watch from my collection that is Railroad Approved. It is in a silver full hunter case and at the time it was made it was accepted by the Railroads at the time it was manufactured.


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## Shiner

The dial has Roman numerals and fleur-de-lis hands. In later years this type of case, dial and hands would not have been acceptable to the Railroads, but because of the very high cost these type of watches were allowed to remain in service if they could still maintain the accuracy demanded by the Railroads.


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## Shiner

This is an 18 size model 1892 Waltham Vanguard and was the highest quality Waltham at the time, with 21 jewels in gold settings with diamond end stones to the balance. It is adjusted to 5 positions plus heat and cold and isocronism and bi-metalic cut balance wheel and solid gold balance screws and a micrometric gold regulator. It&#39;s 120 years old and still keeps time to a few seconds a day. Basically a Railroad Approved watch is one that was approved at the time of manufacture.


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## JWL940

That's an interesting one Shiner, approved equals approval at the time of manufacturer. I read your pictures before the text and got on my, 'oh no it is not' box (hunter and 12 not at 12). As they say, 'every day is a school day'.

Keep these facts coming please.


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## Shiner

American Railroad Approved watches were being produced as far back as the 1860s. Prior to that the watches were imported from Europe and England as America no watch industry. Back then a 15 jewel watch was regarded as fully jewelled. As time went on this number was increased to 17 jewels, then 19,21 and 23 jewels. This was not on the insistance of the Railroads, but because of the fierce competition between the watch manufacturing giants of the time trying to increase their share of the market at the expense of their rivals. So we would have say Waltham introducing a 17 jewel model, so the other followed suit. Then maybe Elgin brought out a 19 jewel movement, then perhaps Illinois came up with a 21 jewel watch and so it went on. These companies were producing millions of watches and it was a cut throat business.

At the time Webb C Ball insisted that 15 jewels in a top quality watch was all that was required, but the competition between the watch manufacturers and public opinion kept pushing the jewel count up and consequently the Railroads followed suit.

Notice on the Vanguard(the highest quality Waltham produced at that time) it is marked 'Adjusted'. There is no mention of the number of adjustments, although they were adjusted to 5 positions plus heat and cold etc., This watch has an early 7 million serial number. It was not until the introduction of the standardisation of Railroad Approval that the number of adjustments had to be placed on the movement. In the case of the Model 1892 Walthams this was quite a few years later around the 14 million serial numbers.

So, there is no particular date or set of specifications regarding a Railroad Approved watch. In fact different Railroads sometimes approved different watches. If a watch was Railroad Approved in the 1870s, 80s or 1890s, it is still a Railroad Approved watch today, as far as a collector is concerned. After all, they met the highest standards of their day and are highly desirable watches.

As a matter of interest did you notice the engraving on the watch case. Evidently it is supposed to depict an 'iron horse' and the 'v' shape below as the 'cowcatcher' on the front of the 'ironhorse'.


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## JWL940

Shiner said:


> As a matter of interest did you notice the engraving on the watch case. Evidently it is supposed to depict an 'iron horse' and the 'v' shape below as the 'cowcatcher' on the front of the 'ironhorse'.


.

Missed that symbolism completely, something else to look for. Incidentally, were there any RR Approved Key wound

PWs as opposed to Stem wound? As they were around in the 1860s I guess the answer must be yes but I'd like confirmation of that to shoot down a personal theory of mine.

John


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## Shiner

John,

It seems that some of the Waltham Model 1857s and the Elgin B.W. Raymond keywinds were in service with the Pennsylvania Railroad at the start of the 1870s.


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## Shiner

The Waltham Vanguard shown above in the silver hunter case was part of the 5th run of Vanguards and they were officially known as the Vanguard Model, but after just five runs of the Vanguard, Waltham decided to produce several less expensive variations of the movement and so they renamed it from the Vanguard Model to the 1892 Model (The year it first went into production). Thereafter the Vanguard became the top GRADE in the 1892 MODEL.

This next watch that I've had for a few years now is a slightly later Model 1892 Vanguard Grade and dates to 1900. This is an 18 size in an open faced case and is pendant wound and lever set, with 21 jewels in gold settings and diamond end stones to the double roller balance and micrometric Star regulator and adjusted to 5 positions(Still only marked as adjusted).


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## Shiner

This has what is now becoming the more standard dial with Arabic numerals and blued spade hands that is associated with the later Railway Approved watches.


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## Roger the Dodger

Great insight into the 'RR' grade watches, Shiner.....please continue........


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## Shiner

The Model 1892 became one of Walthams most successful watches. It was always a high quality movement, made in several grades with never less than 17 jewels and always adjusted. After the first 5 runs, Waltham began to introduce different grades of the model 1892.

This watch is from the first run of the Crescent Street Grade(Run No.8 of the 1892). The Crescent Street Grade is named after the street that runs alongside the Waltham Factory and is second to the Vanguard in quality. It is Railroad Grade and Railroad Approved.

One of the reasons that I bought this particular watch was that I noticed that the movement was actually marked '5 positions' which is very unusual for a Waltham of this age. There have been some recorded before the fourteen million serial numbers but they are few and far between and there seems to be no explanation as to why they should have been so marked. I have since been told that this is now the earliest so far recorded.


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## Shiner

It has the original double sunk dial with Arabic numerals and red 5 minute markers plus the blued spade hands.


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## Shiner

The Waltham 1892 was specifically designed for Railroad use and the first Vanguards left the factory in 1894, a year after Webb C Ball's commission, and initially the open face Vanguards were PENDANT SET and the hunter cased Vanguards were LEVER SET.

In fact some pendant set watches were still being approved by some railroads up to 1909 and hunter cased watches were still in use by some railroads up to the second world war.

The watches accepted as standard watches on a railroad were defined by the Time Service Departmant of that railroad, and it should be noted that the standard differed from railroad to railroad.

So basically a standard watch is one that met the general time service requirements of the railroad that were in effect at the time it was built.


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## Shiner

Here are two more Waltham Vanguards. The one on the right is a Model 1889, that dates to about 1908. It is adjusted to 5 positions(now shown on the movement) with 23 jewels including diamond endstones to the double roller balance, and micrometric regulator.

The one on the left is a Model 1908 and dates to about 1911. It has all the atributes of the Model 1899 the main difference being the more modern Ohlson regulator also known as the &#39;1908 regulator&#39;.

They are both railroad GRADE but only one is railroad GRADE and APPROVED.


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## Shiner

The one on the right is railroad grade and approved. It is lever set and has the railroad approved dial and hands.

The one on the left is an equally fine watch, and the original owner would not have been a railroad worker, but probably someone who wanted a top class watch with a traditional dial and with the less fiddly pendant setting. Plus its housed in a 14K solid gold case.


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## Shiner

This next Railroad grade Waltham is very similar in appearence to the Vanguard on the right above, although it is the later 1908 model. It is a Crescent Street grade, the grade just below the Vanguard. It is 21 jewels in gold settings, adjusted to 5 positions, solid gold main wheel, bi-metalic cut balance with gold balance screws, and Ohlson patent regulator. It dates to 1926.

The movement is mounted in a substantial Railroad Grade Nawco gold filled screw case. The case is unusual in that it has an inner dust cover beneath the rear screwed cover. Many of the cases have lost the inner cover.

The dial is also unusual in that it has an original silvered dial. These were judged to be less reflective and therefore easier to read in bright sunlight. At the time of manufacture this dial was classed as an optional extra and cost a two dollar premium over the enamel dial.

So we have a good quality railroad grade movement in a top quality railroad case with an unusual silvered dial.


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## Shiner

But this is not Railroad Approved because it is pendant set, and by the 1920's this would not have been accepted for railroad service. So because of this some collectors may have turned it down, but in fact this is a rarer watch than the lever set approved watches. Between 1908 and 1930 just over 80,000 of this Crescent Street grade were produced, but only twenty percent were pendant set.


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## Roger the Dodger

Fabulous collection, Shiner, and a really interesting insight into these beautiful pieces. Thanks for posting. I see that although the above watch is pendant set, it still appears to have the slot in the case where a lever would have gone?


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## Shiner

Rog,

Yes, the case is dual purpose, primarily designed for lever setting, but could also house a pendant set movement.

I often wonder if the original owner wanted all the qualities of a railroad approved watch, with the added bling of the silvered dial, but with the benefit of not having to bother with removing the front cover to re-set the time especially if it wasn't his everyday watch.


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## JWL940

As Roger says, what a fantastic collection. I (now) know that dual-countersunk dials are not a RR Approved requirement but are there any / many that we're single or plain faced?

I think you have whetted a number of appetites with this thread Shiner, thanks for sharing.

John


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## Shiner

John,

The vast majority of original dials were double sunk with the main exception being those by Webb Clay Ball who much preferred the single sunk dial. He claimed they were more robust and far less prone to damage.

They all share two common features:- Each hour should be numbered, except on the many dials where the 6th hour is obliterated by the seconds dial, and that each minute is delineated.

Contrary to popular belief, Roman dials were accepted on some railroads as late as 1906.

I haven't seen an original flat dial on a railroad approved watch. I would think that the risk of the hour hand fouling the second hand would be too great a risk.


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## Will Fly

What a great collection - and what a mass of excellent information! My original post - fairly simplistic - was really prompted by the misleading information put out on eBay and some online auction houses, which like to use the "railway" term very loosely to promote a sale.


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## Shiner

Will,

I agree, the use of the term Railway Watch is abused quite a lot on ebay. I like to think that a lot of the time it is used by people who really don't know what they are talking about and it is usually reflected in the rest of their description. But there are some sellers on there who are knowingly trying to deceive in the hope of increasing the price dramatically, and it works. A few weeks ago a 7 jewel Waltham with the engraving of a train on the case sold for over Â£300. I suppose it all boils down to learn before you buy.


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## Shiner

This Waltham is a Model 1883 and dates to 1910 and is from a run that were listed as Special Grade. This batch was ordered by the Canadian Pacific Railway but they only purchased part of the run, so the remainder were finished as Appleton Tracy & Co. (This is in recognition that this was one of the earlier names of the company before it became The American Waltham Watch Co.).

All the watches in this run are listed as Lever Set Open Faced. There are not many of the later runs of 1883s that are LS/OF. Most of the LS/OF Model 83s are below the 3.3 million serial number. There are only 13 runs of Model 83s above that number totaling just 10,370.

The watch has 17 jewels in gold settings, with compensating bi-metalic double roller balance wheel with gold balance screws, micrometric Star regulator and adjusted to 5 positions. I


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## Shiner

The original double sunk Dial is in perfect condition with Arabic numerals and red 5 minute markers, with matching blued steel hands. Housed in a substantial Silveroid.


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## Shiner

This is a 16 size open faced Hamilton 992 grade railroad approved pocket watch. The serial number dates the watch to 1931. It is a three quarter plate movement, lever set, 21 jewels in gold settings, gold main wheel, double roller escapement with compensating balance wheel with gold screws, micrometric regulator, adjusted to temperature, isocronism and 5 positions, steel escape wheel and sapphire pallets, and gold inlaid engraving to the damaskeened plates. The movement runs for 54 hours on a full wind. The Hamilton 992 and 992B were great favourites of railroaders, with a combined total of just over a million produced.


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## JWL940

Shiner

The Waltham at #32 & 33, does the case front and back pry off or screw off? I can't see any witness marks so I am guessing the latter. The Clock and Pocket Watch forum isn't that old but I'll suggest this is the best thread this forum has seen so far. Perhaps when, if ever, it has run its course it could be pinned?

Hugh thanks to Will and Shiner, I am thoroughly enjoying my daily dose of RR Watches.


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## Shiner

John.

Sorry about that, it seems the last bit of info on the Appleton Tracy & Co. went missing. The case is indeed a screw back and front, and the maker was The Keystone Watch Case Company, and the logo inside the back cover proclaims it as 'Guaranteed Genuine Imitation Silver' !! Honestly !


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## Will Fly

I'll just add my Hamilton 992B to the mix - a 1950 model:


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## Shiner

The two Hamiltons above are 16 size movements.

This next one is a Hamilton 18 size 946. This watch is from a run of 2000 form serial number 549001 to 551000 which were produced between 1908 and 1913. This one dates to 1908.

Compared to about a million 992s, Hamilton only produced 10,692 grade 946 watches during the years it was in production from 1904 to 1921 according to factory data. The 946 was Hamiltons top of the line 18 size open face watch and would have easily met all railroad inspections standards at the time it was made.

It was the only Hamilton open faced 18 size with 23 jewels. It has a jewelled motor barrel, double roller balance staff, Breguet hairspring, solid gold balance and timing screws, micro metric regulator, and adjusted to temperature, isocronism and five positions. There were five top plate variations on the 946 and this is the fourth variant and the first to have 'double roller' inscribed. On this variant it was placed around the curve of the plate. Hamilton soon switched the location to the side of the plate in their fifth and final design. Many more are found with the fifth plate.


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## Shiner

The dial is a Montgomery marginal minute dial patented by Henry S Montgomery the first General Watch Inspector of the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad. The dial is in superb condition and is a collectable in its own right. There are many variations of the marginal minute dial, but far fewer of the true Montgomery dial. The movement is housed in a Wadsworth Pilot Case. The Pilot name indicates that this is a 14 carat gold filled case guaranteed for 25 years. It was introduced by Wadsworth at the beginning of 1906. Such time guarantees were ended by new trade regulations introduced on the 1st January, 1924.


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## Shiner

This brings us nicely to the Montgomery dial. As I mentioned earlier it was designed and patented by Henry S Montgomery who was the General Watch Inspector of the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad which was one of the largest railroads in America. He held this position from 1896 to 1923 when he retired.

The dial was designed with three main features. Every minute was displayed in an upright position around the margin of the dial. Every fifth minute was slightly larger and the numeral six for the sixth hour was positioned in the seconds dial( this was normally missing from dials).

This dial was first used on that railroad's watch dials in 1899 and became their approved railroad dial in 1906. It became greatly admired by other railroaders and was promoted for use on other railroads and in 1910 Elgin began offering the dial on their watches, followed by Illinois in 1911 and Hamilton in 1912.

The railroaders were delighted with the dial, but some watchmakers were not so keen as they had to pay Montgomery a royalty for every dial they fitted. So they started to offer their own versions of the marginal minute dial but they changed one aspect or another from Montgomery's patented design and usually omitted the sixth hour numeral from the seconds dial therefore avoiding paying royalties to Montgomery. Even companies who had previously supplied correct Montgomery dials switched to an altered, non Montgomery marginal minute dial. The railroaders were quite happy with these dials as to them the most important aspect of the dials was the marginal minute band.

Although the railroaders liked the dial and Montgomery was counting his royalties, one man was furious.

Webb C. Ball. The man who had been responsible for compiling the directive regarding railroad watches was not amused. He was of the opinion that railroad watch dials should be kept as clear as possible with a plain white background, bold black hour markings and heavy blued steel spade hands. He regarded these dials as over fussy and in gloomy conditions more difficult to read, and so he started a campaign to have these dials banned. He even wrote to railroads with his opinions regarding these dials, enclosing pictures of the dials that he considered that the railroads should not approve. Amongst them the Montgomery dial.

This dispute between Ball and Montgomery lasted from 1910 to 1922 when Ball died, and his son took over the company.

This type of dial continued for many more years as you can see from Will's superb Hamilton 992B. Also notice that Will's watch dial does not have the number 6 in the seconds dial. This dial is a Canadian marginal minute dial. The Canadian railroads used the 24 hour dial whereas the vast majority of American railroads used the 12 hour dial.


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## Will Fly

Well spotted, Shiner! My 992B is indeed a Canadian watch - with a Canadian G/F case - and was used on the CPR.

Wonderful info on this thread, and fascinating reading.


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## JWL940

Shiner

Have I seen photo #38 somewhere else recently? It's not every day you see a jewelled barrel and it really struck a cord the first time I saw something similar a few weeks ago. Once again I read the photo before the accompanying text and told myself it wasn't RR grade because it didn't have a micro adjustable regulator only to find it does. So tonight's question is why is this regulator micro-metric? To me it looks just like a long arm you could move with a pointy stick rather then all others you have posted previously that have some sort of screw or geared control.

John


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## Shiner

John,

This is a closer view of the regulator. At the 6 o'clock position you can see the head of the adjusting screw. The length of the screw runs through the body of the balance ****. There is a pivot mechanism acting as a fulcrum, that is shaped a bit like a catapult. The handle of the catapult is attached to the screw by an elongated nut through the adjustment slot. At the prong end of the fulcrum sits a rounded spigot that is part of the regulator arm. Turning the screw clockwise advances the regulator; there is a gold letter F for Fast above right within the circular tension spring, and a gold letter S above left just below the balance **** retaining screw. The adjusting screw either pulls or pushes the fulcrum which in turn moves the regulator arm along the regulator guage. The circular tension spring holds the fulcrum in position and stops the regulator arm from being moved accidentally.

Yes you probably have seen this watch before. I listed it a couple of months ago with some other watches and then my laptop was stolen and I hadn't saved them. Then all the pictures were wiped.


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## JWL940

Got it, thanks. That close up answers it all, now immediately clear.

Sorry to hear about your laptop, I had my company van broken into a few weeks ago and my Satnav taken complete with 'favourites' all over Europe. I was spitting feathers for days and my company's response to me wasn't entirely helpful either. Once I had calmed down I was thankful that was all that was taken. Had they had got into the back of the van...ugh.

These movements are things of beauty and that 946 with its jewelled barrel is geogeous. Not a hint of a screwdriver going anywhere near it, remarkable condition. Once again thanks.


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## Shiner

This watch is a Waltham 1908 Model Vanguard grade. The serial number dates it to 1929. It has 23 jewels in raised gold mounts, gold mainwheel, bi-metalic balance wheel with gold balance and timing screws and Lossier Inner Terminal hairspring, and Ohlson Patent micrometric regulator.

The movement is also equipped with an 'Up-Down' winding indicator at the 12 o'clock position that shows the number of hours the watch has been running on the current winding.


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## Shiner

This movement is of a higher grade than would be required for Railroad Service, but it would not have been approved because it is pendant set. It was made just at the start of the 1930s Great Depression and it remained in stock for a number of years before finally being shipped to England where it was cased in an 18 carat gold Dennison case and became a presentation watch for 40 years loyal service in 1936.

That was, by all standards a very expensive presentation gift. The vast majority of these gold watch presentations were a 7 jewel Traveler movement in a 9 carat gold case. In the Philip T Priestley Book about A.L. Dennison only two 18 carat gold cases are listed amongst the scores of 9 carat cases. This person must have been a very highly regarded employee.

Dennison, was one of the founding fathers of Waltham and after leaving the company and setting up his watch case business in Birmingham imported and cased the vast majority of Waltham movements that came to England. The movements were imported minus case and dials as this reduced the import taxes. So they were not only cased but also the dials were fitted over here and the English Waltham dial usually shows the Waltham name in Script and always with USA below.


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## Will Fly

I've just acquired a 1952 Elgin 571 "B.W. Raymond" watch - lovely black, thick, Arabic numerals and all in excellent condition. The movement is inscribed "9 adjustments". Mmm... would this include adjustments for temperature and isochronism as well as the position adjustments?


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## Shiner

Will,

Yes. The maximum total of positions is 6, stem up, stem down, stem left, stem right, dial up, dial down. Then you have heat, cold and isocronism to make the number up to 9.

So the Vanguard above marked 6 positions has all the 9 adjustments, and those marked 5 positions will have 8 adjustments. The 6th position was stem down, a position that pocket watches were very rarely used in. Unless the conductor liked to dangle upside down from the luggage rack, and then the watch, attached to it's chain would fall from his waistcoat pocket and finish stem up.


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## Shiner

Here are a couple from the Elgin watch company. The one on the left is an 18 size Overlander in a very robust case thhat practically dwarfs the 16 size Father Time. The Overlander has the earlier style of dial whereas the Father Time has what would be regarded as the typically bold dial used on the later railroad watches.


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## Shiner

The Overlander dates to 1907 and is a Model 7 Grade 353 and is not very often seen. It has 17 jewel in gold settings, adjusted, micrometric regulator and lever set. It is railroad grade, but may not have been approved by all railroads.


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## Shiner

The Father Time dates to 1919. With 21 jewels in gold settings, solid gold main wheel, micrometric regulator, bi-metalic balance whell with gold balance and timing screws, adjusted to 5 positions and lever set.


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## Shiner

Something we haven't touched on yet is the Railroad Fakes.

We are all aware of the countless fakes of the modern day top quality Swiss watches. Well the same sort of thing happened with the American Railroad watches, only these fakes were Swiss made.

They were made to appear like the multi jewelled, split balance, adjusted, lever set top of the range railroad watches, but were in fact they were mainly cheap imitations with coloured glass jewels, no adjustments and balance wheels that appeared cut but were in partly cut etc.,

At the time all imported watches had to have the country of origin stamped on the movement, These movements were initially sent as movements only with no dial or case, so the country of origin was stamped on the pillar plate so that it could not be seen when the dial was attached. Another method was to stamp the word Swiss on the very edge of one of the plates so that it could not be seen when the movement was fitted to the case. The law was changed so that the word Swiss had to be visible when cased so the later watches are marked in such a way that it is so small it is difficult to read. The movement would then be engraved with a name that was very similar to one of the famous American makes, such as the one shown.

This is just one example. There are dozens of different versions out there, but very few are seen in the UK.


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## Will Fly

To the best of my knowledge I've never seen a Swiss-made faked American watch. I've seen a few which have obviously been altered and mucked about with - but never a fake as such. Fascinating!


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## Shiner

Notice that it's signed P.T. Barrlet WALDHAM MASS. Pretty close to P.S. Bartlett WALTHAM MASS.


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## Shiner

This is an early version of a railroad approved watch when individual railroads set their own standard. It is an Illinois 18 size Model 5, Grade 51, in a HUNTER case. With only 15 jewels like many of the early approved watches, micrometric regulator, bi-metalic split balance wheel and Breguet blued steel hairspring and lever set.

Notice that it has another version of the micrometric regulator. The adjusting screw runs in a grooved segment under the regulator arm and pushes or pulls the arm depending on which way it is screwed.

This watch is from a run of just 200 that were made as a private label for J.W. Coatsworth of Galena, Illinois and is marked to the movement and dial.


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## Shiner

The movement is housed in a five ounce silver case, and weighs a total of just under half pound

.


----------



## JWL940

Just when I bought I could recognise a RR Approved PW you throw this fast ball at me 

Not an open face, not Arabic Numerals, not 12 at the stem, not adjusted for 5 positions and at first glance I'd have said the swan neck had broken off!

Every day's a school day, keep em coming.


----------



## JWL940

Sorry, that should have said, 'just when I thought I could...'.

I haven't got round to buying yet but I will!


----------



## Shiner

John,

I thought you might mention the 'broken swan-neck' so I took another photo in anticipation! I must admit that before I bought the watch I double checked it with a couple of other collectors with this model in their collection and theirs were identical.


----------



## Shiner

Although the movement is not marked adjusted, the records show that it was, but probably to only three positions, which was acceptable at the time.


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## JWL940

That's an interesting photograph Shiner, it looks like there's a stress mark below the outer screw exactly where yours has snapped off.

I don't know what impresses me most, your collection or your knowledge of the subject. It has certainly made me reassess my meagre collection.


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## Shiner

John,

That mark just below the lower retaining screw on the regulator is in fact a careless scratch where a screwdriver has slipped from the adjusting screw at some time. The regulator was not designed with a swan neck.


----------



## simons194

Based on that very clear description this is clearly not but some advice/opinion as to what this is would be very welcome..


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## Will Fly

The serial number would date the movement to around 1903.


----------



## Shiner

It's a model 1883, Sterling Grade. The serial number dates it to 1902/3. It's a full plate movement with 7 jewels and no adjustments, open face, pendant wind and set with a Canadian style single sunk dial.

Hope that's of some help.


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## simons194

Shiner said:


> It's a model 1883, Sterling Grade. The serial number dates it to 1902/3. It's a full plate movement with 7 jewels and no adjustments, open face, pendant wind and set with a Canadian style single sunk dial.
> 
> Hope that's of some help.


Thats great thanks !


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## Shiner

So maybe a quick summary regarding what we have been discussing so far.

Quite a few pocket watch collectors focus on American Railroad watches. They were amongst the highest grade watches made, perhaps eventually being superceded in time keeping quality only by presentation watches and navigational chronometers

There are some watches that are widely recognised as having been accepted for railroad time service, such as the top of the range Walthams, Elgins, Illinois, Ball and Hamilton etc., But every now and again every collector, be they novice or expert comes up against an unusual watch about which the question arises, 'Is this a Railroad Watch'?

The easy answer to that is that they are those watches that were accepted for railroad time service. By using this definition it soon raises problems such as different railroads accepted different watches. Some listed specific makes and grades as acceptable whilst others just listed specification. Also bear in mind that there were many hundreds of different railroads making up their specific requirements and a lot of this documentation has failed to survive. Then another thing to consider is that these specifications would differ from one decade to the next. Plus things get even more complicated by the fact that many railroads allowed older previously accepted watches to remain in service when the lists were updated.

So we arrive at the following definition:-

A Railroad Watch is one that met the requirements that were in effect AT THE TIME THE WATCH WAS BUILT.

It is widely believed that Webb C. Ball was mainly responsible for unifying the time inspection standard in the early 1890's. Although he did make a significant contrbution there was a definition of Standard Time and regulated watch inspections 40 years prior to Ball's involvement.

In 1887 a meeting of The American Railway Association resulted in defining the form of watch certificate that was accepted by the majority of the railroads, and with just minor amendments, remained in use for a century. Although it must be said that Webb C. Ball was very well respected and his 'time service' eventually controlled the inspection of half of the American railroads.

For several decades, up to the 1890's, the Standard Watch was an 18 size, 15 jewel watch adjusted to position(usually 3). Then in 1891 the Hampden Watch Company, with a great deal of promotion introduced their 18 size, 17 jewel watch. This created such a demand from the public that all the other manufacturers followed suit and so began the great up-jewelling rush.

By the first few years of the new century, 19 and 21 jewel watches began to be introduced and the 16 size watches began to appear in large numbers. During these early years of the 20th century the move towards tighter requirements occurred. By 1908 the now familiar requirements were in place. They were basically:-

American made 18 or 16 size

Fitted with 17 jewels or more

Temperature compensated

Marked 'Adjusted to 5 positions'

Lever set

Timed to plus or minus 30 seconds per week

Fitted with a double roller

Patented regulator

Steel escape wheel

Plain white dial(silvered dials were allowed during the teens)

Black Arabic numerals

Each minute delineated

Open face

Configured with the winding stem at 12 o'clock

This ended the acceptance for watches newly entering service with Roman dials, pendant setting, and hunting watch cases.

The huge number of grades from the various manufacturers over the next 20 or 30 years provides the collector with a great variety of railroad watches to collect, in fact most of the railroad watches the collector comes across are from this period.

By the mid teens the 16 size, 21 jewel, adjusted to 5 positions models would be accepted for service for the next 30 years.

By the 1920's the 18 size watch was no longer popular and by the 1930's they were no longer permitted to enter service. By this time the 17 jewel watches were also no longer permitted on some railroads. It should be noted that 17 jewel 18 size watches adusted to 3 positions continued to be 'grandfathered' on some railroads as long as they could meet the 30 seconds requirement.


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## Shiner

These two watches are both Waltham Model 1899, Riverside Grade with 19 jewels, adjusted to 5 positions, micrometric regulator, double roller balance staff, and steel escape wheel.

The one on the right dates from 1907/8 and would not be accepted for railroad service because by that time hunter cases and pendant setting were no longer acceptable.

The one on the left dates from 1908/9 and would be acceptable as it has all the requirements as the one above plus it is marked 5 positions and it is open faced and lever set.


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## Shiner

This is a closer view of the open face railroad approved watch. I've posted this because it is very unusual, in that it is engraved with the British military 'crowsfoot' mark plus the letters and numbers HW 1017. I have never been able to find out why it should be so marked. One or two collectors in America have suggested that perhaps it was bought in for testing by the British for comparison with other makes, prior to placing an order. Maybe someone knows what HW 1017 refers to?


----------



## JWL940

Great summation Shiner and one again thanks to Will and yourself for this valuable guide. All that's needed now is for a mod to make it a sticky (please).

Size 18 and 16 meant nothing to me until I Googled it, I now understand they refer to the dial plate diameters of 1 23/30" and 1 21/30" respectively. What on earth were they thinking of when they came up with those dimensions (that's a rhetorical question by the way, I don't expect an answer (unless you know)).

Is there any good source material out there on the subject or have you had to learn all this the hard way?

John


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## Will Fly

And thanks from me as well, Shiner - for expanding my rather simplistic start into a proper dissertation on the topic. Excellent - and very useful. As it happens - and just for fun - I checked one or two "railway/railroad" described watches on eBay yesterday and found a couple that were, mistakenly I guess, described as such when they weren't. Though I don't collect exclusively these watches, they form the majority in my collection.

The one that my wife recently got me for Christmas (Hamilton 992) - i.e. she said, "What would you like?" and I replied, "That one, please" - was on sale on eBay from a seller in Berlin. The seller's main business was in fountain pens and drawing instruments - the watch must have been an accident - and he described it rather plaintively in the following terms:

"The watch is in very good condition and runs well. Unfortunately the winder doesn't not set the pointers!" - I realised that he hadn't heard of RR watches and lever setting! I messaged him via eBay to explain how it worked (I felt it only fair to tell him), but I don't really think he understood me - one of the few Germans I've come across who doesn't speak good English... Anyway, when it arrived, the lever setting worked beautifully - as did the watch. Now I have to wait for Christmas morning to hold it in my hot little hands! :tongue2:


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## Shiner

John,

The American watch manufacturers basically adopted the English (or Lancashire) watch sizes. The smallest size dial plate was 1 and 5/30ths of an inches in diameter and this is numbered nought. The dial plate sizes increased by 1/30th of an inch for each larger dial plate fom 0 up to 20.

If you dismantle an early English pocket watch, say from the 2nd half of the 19th century you will see on the dial plate a number 10 - 12 - 14 etc which indicates the diameter of the dial plate.

I don't collect English watches so I don't know why they worked in 30ths of an inch, but I'm sure someone will come up the answer.

I have been collecting American watches for quite a number of years and have collected lots of books and handled and collected hundreds of watches, and there's tons of information on the internet that I have printed off and filed.

Will,

I know how you feel. I managed to locate in America a book on American watches that I have been searching for for ages. I told my wife that that was what I wanted for Christmas.

It arrived this morning and she snatched it out of my hands, saying "Oh no, that's for Christmas!"


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## JWL940

Shiner said:


> It arrived this morning and she snatched it out of my hands, saying "Oh no, that's for Christmas!"


Quite right too, +1 to Mrs Shiner.


----------



## Mechanical Alarm

My head is full..., can I be excused?


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## Shiner

This is the earliest railroad grade watch I have in my collection. It is a Waltham Model 1857, Waltham Watch Co. Grade and dates to 1868. This is 30 years before the railroads introduced their 'standard watch' requirements. At the time (just 4 years after the American Civil War) this watch was a high grade with 15 jewels, compensating balance and adusted to cold and heat, and would have been accepted at that time by various railroads, if not all. It still keeps excellent time, and is in excellent condition for 145 years old.


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## Shiner

This is the original 145 years old dial, with the arched 'American Watch Co.' marking. It's in perfect condition with no chips or hairlines







,


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## Shiner

These are three of the railroad approved Waltham Vanguards from my collection. They are all Model 1892's and although they look identical, there are variations. During its comparitively short production life the 1892, the serial number was placed in three different positions as can be seen on these three examples. From left to right, This watch dates from 1895 with Serial Number Position 1 (SNP1) immediately below 'Waltham Mass' on the top plate. The central watch dates to 1900, SNP2 was still on the top plate but in an arc by the top of the barrel bridge, and the third watch dates to 1903 and the final SNP3 was placed on the barrel bridge. There were other modifications, some of which can be seen on the latest one on the right. This has a third screw in the centre of the barrel bridge, plus the addition of the inscribed '5 positions' at the base of the barrel bridge. There are two other modifications on this watch that are difficult to see in the photo. These are the orientation of the screws holding down the upper balance cap jewel, from north to south on the first two watches to east to west on the third watch, plus the introduction of the Waltham triangular patent hairspring stud.


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## Shiner

One of the greatest advantages of American pocket watches is that many parts were interchangable. So that a watch needing repair could be put back in working order quickly and quite easily.

For example, most parts of the Model 1892 would fit the many grades in that model range, and spares were readily available. So if today it was necessary to replace a fourth wheel because of a broken second hand pinion it could be replaced from an '1892 parts watch' that you have tucked away in a drawer.

Now that railroad watches have become so desirable the collector has to be very careful about the watches he intends to add to his collection, because although certain parts can be accepted as replacements due to 'wear and tear', other parts would not be acceptable. But as these watches become more expensive so there is always the chance for the less honest sellers to make up watches with non matching parts.

Speaking from a personal point of view, the parts that should not be replaced are those parts that carry the serial number allocated to that watch. Those parts would include the top plate, pillar plate, barrel bridge, balance **** and balance wheel.

Obviously when buying a watch the only serial number visible is the one on the top plate ot barrel bridge. All the others are on the unseen side of the part, so you take a chance that all the other parts carry the correct matching serial number.

Therefore it is vital that you try and reduce the chance of buying 'a wrong 'un' and to learn as much as possible about such watches, and try and buy from reputable sellers. As well as the serial number that is visible you need to know what else to look for when viewing the movement and case.

As an example I show four grades of the Model 1892. A Vanguard.


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## Shiner

A Crescent Street







.


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## Shiner

An Appleton Tracy.


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## Shiner

And a Royal. They are all have different patterns of Damaskeening to the winding wheels. They have different variations of regulators. Some have gold engraving on the balance ****, some have gold screws holding down the jewel settings. The damaskeening pattern on the barrel bridge must match the pattern on the top plate. All these things would be interchangable but wrong.









These sort of things were different on the different grades. Plus there could be variations on a grade during it's production life, so you need to know what the movement should look like in relation to the serial number. Therefore, if anything looks wrong on the top plate area, what lurks beneath?

I have been collecting railroad watches for a few years now and the longer I collect them the more I realise how much there is to learn.


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## Shiner

When I buy a watch the first thing I do is dismantle it and clean and oil it. I then take a close up photo of all the matching serial numbers for my own records before re-assembling the watch.


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## Themonty73

Hi Guys,

These pocket watches are amazing, i'm currently looking for a railroad watch for my 40th birthday present but not sure where i can find outside of e-bay, do any of you guys know of any shops selling any?

Many thanks

James


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## Shiner

This is a very early 'Elgin'. This watch was produced in 1869, just two years after the company went into production. It is serial number 36833. Over 55 million watches were produced in the lifetime of the company which was 1867 -1955. This is a Series 1 H.H.Taylor Model, Grade 58. It is a key wind and set 15 jewel movement with compensated balance wheel and was accepted for railroad service at the time it was produced. The company was initially known as 'The National Watch Company' and the name was changed to the 'Elgin National Watch Company' in 1874.


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## Shiner

It still has the original 'National Watch Co.' dial.

Early Elgin watches very often had inscribed names on the movements. These were of famous people associated with the early days of the company. H.H. Taylor:- Henry Hobart Taylor was born in New York in 1835. His family moved to Chicago in 1845 and then to Freeport Illinois in 1854 when Henry was 19 years old. From there he struck out on his own and in 1856 he became an agent for C.Auldman & Co, of Canton Ohio, makers of farm machinery. In 1864 his business had increased greatly and he moved to Chicago where he continued to prosper, especially in property. In 1867 he became a founder member of 'The National Watch Company' and served on the board of directors until his untimely death in 1875 at the age of 40, leaving a fortune of 2.5 million dollars, a considerable in those days.


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## Shiner

It is well recognised that American Railroad Grade watches were amongst the finest watches in the world, but they were not necessarily the best they produced at the time. There were some that were of a higher grade. This next watch is a Waltham 'Riverside Maximus'. It was produced in 1903 with 23 jewels in gold settings including 4 diamond end stones to the balance and escapement pivots, all the train wheels are gold as are the balance and timing screws, with a micrometric regulator and adjusted for heat, cold, isocronism and 5 positions. The dial has Roman numerals and it is pendant set. It was shipped to England and is housed in a Dennison hunter case.


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## JWL940

Another fine piece Shiner. Was/is there any advantage in using precious metals in the train wheels over base metal? Naturally there's the prestige of gold and it is not magnetic but I'd imagine wear to be more of a problem and being soft manufacturing must be more difficult.


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## Shiner

With regard to the diamond endstones. The general concensus of opinion would seem to be that they did offer some improvement, but did they warrant the expense? When used with conical shaped pivots the standard ruby endstones were prone to wear pitting, something that did not occur with the much harder diamond endstones, plus a diamond surface offered less friction. Some say that these diamond endstones were just for show. If that was the case why would the factory place two of these four endstones in the pillar plates where they would never be seen by the owner of the watch?

The gold train wheels. Although gold is a very soft metal it is alloyed to produce the correct degree of firmness. Therefore the gold wheels carry less friction and the smoother action is more important than a harder metal in these slow moving wheels. Gold of course doesn't rust, tarnish and is non-magnetic.

In both cases I think it was the manufacturers making a statement that no expense was spared in producing there very top of the range movements.


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## Will Fly

I received this Hamilton 925 size 18 watch (swing-out case) as a Christmas present from a good friend in the US. The movement dates from 1900. I'm told by my friend that, at the time, this watch was approved for railroad use, though a check of some databases doesn't show it as railroad grade. It's certainly lever set.


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## Shiner

Hi Will,

I haven't been able to find anything regarding railroad service for the 925, but I did find this.


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## Will Fly

Wow - $12.25 for the movement! I suppose a basic nickel case would have been about the same price... The case is a swing-out but not a hunter, so it's a sidewinder. The dial has been marked in several places and "mended" in places with what looks like Snopake or Tippex. I've been looking out for a suitable replacement dial (Roman numerals) with the handwritten-style "Hamilton Watch Co." signature, but no luck so far.


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## Shiner

This watch has everything, and more, than would be required for railroad approval. It is the top of the range 23 jewel Vanguard with the addition of the winding indicator which alerts the owner as to how far up or down the mainspring is wound. But this watch was not built for railroad use. It was a presentation watch. It was equipped with pendant setting instead of lever setting and was shipped to England and cased in an 18 carat gold case, and presented to an employee for 45 years loyal service. A very expensive presentation gift. This was the highest priced Waltham in the Dennison catalogue of the time (1935). The cheapest watch was a 7 jewel 'Traveler' movement in a solid silver case which sold for Â£4.75 right through the range to the 23 jewel Vanguard with winding indicator in an 18 carat gold case at Â£42.25.


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## Shiner

The Vanguard movement.


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## Will Fly

I've coveted a Vanguard with a winding indicator for a long time - either they've come along when I've had no cash or they've been flawed in some way. But I'll get one eventually - wonderful watches!


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## Shiner

Will,

I bought the watch a few years ago from one one of my contacts and I had to pay the then current scrap price for the gold case plus Â£40 for the movement.


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## Shiner

This is an Elgin B.W.Raymond, Model 15, Grade 391. It is a 16 size watch and dates to 1911. It is Railroad Approved and was widely used on all railroads. It is lever set with 21 jewels in gold settings, micrometric regulator and adjusted to 5 positions, with a double sunk dial, Arabic numerals and blued steel spade hands. The B.W.Raymond name was on the very first watch produced by Elgin. The name was still in use right the final years in the 1950s.

B.W. Raymond:- Benjamin Wright Raymond (1801-1883) His second Christian name is his mother's maiden name.

He was twice elected mayor of Chicago in 1839 and 1842. In 1843, with his business partner Simon Dexter he built the first woolen mill in Elgin, Illinois. Raymond also served as president of the Fox River Railroad which connected Elgin to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. In 1864 he was approached by J.C. Adams a watchmaker and others from the Waltham Factory regarding a new watch factory. Raymond and other Chicago businessmen put up the money and it was decided that the factory be built in Elgin Illinois with the town donating 35 acres of land. The buliding was completed in 1866 and housed The National Watch Company that was later to become the Elgin Watch Company. B.W. Raymond became the President.

The very first watch was named B.W. Raymond and was sold on the 1st April, 1867.


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## Shiner

This is a little different from the normal railroad grade pocket watches. This in a 16 size grade 50 Elgin 'Convertible' and dates to 1888. It has 15 jewels, adjusted, micrometric regulator and bi-metalic split balance wheel. At the moment it is in a hunter case with the winding mechanism in the correct 3 o'clock position, but the winding mechanism can be moved from the hunter 3 o'clock position to the 12 o'clock position before placing it in an open faced case. So the movement would be in the correct 12 o'clock position.

If you transfer a standard hunter movement from a hunter case to an open face case you have a 'sidewinder' watch which was not acceptable for railroad use.


----------



## Shiner

The vast majority of railroad approved pocket watches produced by the manufacturers was movement only and the retailers then cased the movement in a case selected by the buyer. Eventually the manufacturers decided to case them 'in house' so that the movements could be adjusted in the various positions as a complete watch, therefore hopefully avoiding any chance of the positional timings being disturbed when being cased up by the retailers. Waltham seems to have been a little slower off the mark than other factories and it was not until the late 1920's that they started to carry out this proceedure.

This Waltham dates to 1928 and is a 21 jewel Crescent Street adjusted to 6 positions in it's original factory case







.


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## Shiner

The dial.


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## Shiner

The totally unmarked rear cover.


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## Shiner

The inner case Waltham logo.


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## Shiner

I think I'll make this my last watch contribution to this topic as I think it's probably running out of steam(no pun intended).

This is a Waltham 1883 Model and dates to 1902. It is one of a series made for the Canadian Pacific Railways







.


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## Shiner

Complete with original Canadian 24 hour dial. American railroads tended to very much favour the 12 hour Arabic dial







.


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## Shiner

And a well worn case complete with steam locomotive.


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## JWL940

Shiner

Your contribution has been fascinating and I've learnt more from this than from any other thread. Somehow I'm going to collate these 7 pages together and store them away for future reference; I still say they should be made a sticky. Thank you sincerely for taking the time to photograph and write about your collection. I'd be happy to see more but understand if you want to draw a line under it.

Rgds. John


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## Shiner

Just thought I would add a little more that might be of interest.

This is a Waltham Model 1883, Grade 35, 18 size hunter movement. Serial Number 3217356 and dates to 1886. It is stem wind and lever set, adjusted, with 15 jewels, split bi-metalic balance wheel a Breguet blued steel hairspring. This watch would at that time been in a closed face case, would have wound at the 3 o&#39;clock position, and had a face with Roman numerals and quite delicate hands. But it would have been accepted for Railroad Service at the time it was made.

As time went on the Railroad Service approval standards were raised and this watch would have been allowed to remain in service on the system where watches already in service could remain in service as long as they could still maintain the timekeeping standard of plus or minus 30 seconds per week(4 seconds a day),


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## Shiner

Eventually even those that were 'Grandfathered' were no longer accepted because many of them failed to meet other criteria, such as:- the watch must be in an open case, it must be wound at the 12 o'clock position, must have bold Arabic numerals and heavy bold hands.

At this time, sometime during the 1930's this watch would have been about 50 years old but the then owner still considered it good enough for service so he removed the the original dial and hands and replaced them with the new railroad standard hands and a replacement conversion dial. The conversion dial allowed the watch to be wound in the upright 12 o'clock position, but that meant the seconds dial was in the three o'clock position, which did not contravene the rules.

The owner then had to buy another 18 size open face case. The 18 size watch was by then a thing of the past, but there were some casemakers making them for repairs and replacements.

So the owner now had a 50 years old watch that conformed to the latest railroad requirements, and they were accepted by many of the rairoads.

These silvered dials were not popular for very long as they tended to discolour and were easily scartched and prone to wear, as can be seen on this example.

I could restore this watch to it's original condition with the correct period parts that I have, but I think it's more interesting in it's present state.


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## JWL940

Shiner. I also have an 1883 (3118890) but in a far less fancy case than yours, it was retailed by Hopkins & Hopkins of Dublin. One question please, how is the energy released from the going barrel there being no visible click to disengage?


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## Shiner

You will need a spare winding stem and crown or a let down tool as you need to remove the movement from the case, then remove the circular dust cover from the movement if one is still in position.

Look at the pillar plate near the mainspring barrel and you will see the end of a small lever just visible in the plate.

Insert your spare stem and crown far enough to engage the winding gears. Now, holding the stem in place put on a slight additional winding pressure and move the small lever to release the click. This will allow you to let down the spring by rotating the stem in the reverse direction. Be careful, ALL the spring pressure will by trying to unwind all at once, so have tight control of the movement and the stem.

BTW, As a safety precaution I always remove the balance assembly before letting down the mainspring.

If you haven't got a spare winding stem you can make a 'let down tool' using a small screwdriver. File the stem into four flats to square it up to fit.


----------



## JWL940

Many thanks Shiner, I think you're imparting some advice there learnt the hard way . In the aviation/flight safety world there's a saying along the lines of, 'learn from other people's mistakes, there isn't time to make them all yourself', I am happy to do so.

I have also subsequently found one of "bunnspecial's" videos on Youtube where he looks at this movement. While he is clearly knowledgeable his videos make me cringe and laugh at the same time; well worth a look if you've not seen him before.


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## Will Fly

Ah, the famous "bunnspecial" and his YT videos! I love'em and cringe at them at the same time. Isn't his belching and mild swearing wonderful?

He makes no claim to be an expert and always says, "No watches were harmed in the making of this video." Mmm...

Still, I've always found his videos have something of interest in them.


----------



## Shiner

This is a Waltham Model 1883 18 size 'Crescent Street' that dates to 1894 and was accepted and approved for railroad service. It is hunter cased, lever set, adjusted, with 17 jewels in gold settings, with a 'gold star' micrometric regulator, split bi-metalic balance wheel with gold timing and balance screws.

There were only 2900, 17 jewelled Model 1883 'Crescent Street' grade movements made between 1st October, 1893 to 31st January, 1901.

This is one of the earliest, being from the first run of 300 movements (6035201 to 6035500) of eight runs.

The damaskeening on these early Model 1883 'Crescent Street' grade is considered to be amongst the best of all the early full plate American pocket watches.


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## Will Fly

What a beautiful movement! The damaskeening is superb.


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## Shiner

I really like to see the damaskeening on these full plate pocket watches, but some collectors are not impressed as it does not improve the actual quality of the movement. Some regard damaskeening as just 'fancy waistcoats'.

Well, I suppose it is.

When these watches were produced they were sold as a movement only and the jeweller or retailer would offer the customer a selection of cases of various designs and qualities. Because these watches had a full plate, there was very little of the working parts viewable, so to impress the buyer what better than the 'blank canvass' of the full plate to produce a miniture work of art?

So the full plate lent itself to the art of the damaskeen symetrical patterns more so than the later three quarter plate watches.

I love these old full plate movements, and as a collector I spend more time admiring the 'works' than the dial!


----------



## JWL940

Shiner said:


> I love these old full plate movements, and as a collector I spend more time admiring the 'works' than the dial!


I suspect that a good proportion of PW collectors do the same Shiner. It was certainly the 'visible engineering' that attracted me to PWs over wrist watches and with clocks I can actually see how they work, another attraction.

I asked myself just this morning why all the damaskeening as, as you say, it does nothing for the functionality of the piece. Thank goodness the suppliers went to all that trouble to sell their wares.


----------



## Shiner

Just a little update regarding the criteria laid down by Webb C. Ball in 1893 as seen in the very first posting. As discussed in later postings, these were not binding but recommendations and many of the thousand railroads in America set there own standards that were in many cases less stringent.

One of these railroads was the Santa Fe Railroad. This Time Service Certificate relates to a Hamilton 992 that dates to 1918 and it conforms to all of the Webb C. Ball criteria, but notice that this certificate requires that it only meets the standard for just three positions not five. This certificate dates to 1921 which is 28 years after the Webb C. Ball criteria.


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## Shiner

This is a Hamilton 992 from my collection that predates the 992 referred to in the time service certificate and conforms to all the criteria laid down by Webb C. Ball.


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## Shiner

This is a watch often overlooked by collectors of Railroad Approved watches. It is the Waltham 18 size, Model 1883 Grade 35.	The reason for this is that unlike the Crescent Street; Appleton Tracy; P.S.Bartlett and others; the No.35 Grade falls into the catagory of watches generally referred to as 'Nameless' grades. The grade is not marked on the movement, which only bears the signature 'American Waltham Watch Co'. and the 'Adjusted' and 'Safety Pinion' markings. It doesn't even state the number of jewels in the movement. The only way to identify if a nickel damaskeened, adjusted Model 1883 is a Grade No.35 is to trace the serial number. Yet in 1887, it was listed as being adjusted to heat and cold and ALL 6 POSITIONS and cost 36 dollars which was 6 dollars more than the much more gilded ' Appleton Tracy'. Despite being a 'Nameless' grade, the No.35 was specially promoted for Railroad Time Service use. It was first released in 1886 as a 15 jewel movement and upgraded to 17 jewels in 1894 and remained available for sale for a few more years.

This particular open faced watch is serial number 3306619 and dates to 1887/8 with 15 jewels in gold settings, adjusted to cold and heat and 6 positions, with a Waltham 'star' micrometric regulator, split bi-metalic balance wheel, Breguet blued steel hairspring and damaskeened nickel plates.

The open face No.35 was the grade of watch used by the well known Illinois Central engineer Casey Jones of the Cannonball Express fame. Do you remember the black and white TV series? Yes he really existed!

John Luther Jones was born in Jackson, Tennessee in 1864, but spent a lot of his early life in Cayce, Kentucky which is where he got the name Casey. He was killed in a train crash in 1900 when as a favour he took over a train as a relief driver for a friend who had called in sick. He was trying to make up lost time and get back on schedule when the train he was driving at night smashed into the rear of a train that had stopped in a siding with the rear carriages still on the main line.


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## Roger the Dodger

Shiner...your knowledge and enthusiasm for your pocket watches is unrivalled.....I always look forward to your threads, because nearly every time I learn something new. Although my own interest in PWs has faded, I still enjoy looking at yours. You're a credit to the forum. :yes:


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## Shiner

Thanks Rog,

I think that sharing knowledge with fellow enthusiasts is what it's all about. There's a lot of pitfalls out there and if we can help each other avoid some of them so much the better.


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## Melville

As a newcomer to the forum and a keen collector of American pocket watches, I would like to say how much I have enjoyed reading this topic. But it seems that a lot of the photos have gone missing which is a disappointment. A great read none the less.


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## JWL940

Missing all your photos Shiner, are they gone for good or just resting? I never did get around to archiving this thread and am now kicking myself. It's been a while since I added to the collection although many over the pond keep attracting my interest, I think I'm getting withdrawal symptions.

John


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## Roger the Dodger

JWL940 said:


> Missing all your photos Shiner, are they gone for good or just resting? I never did get around to archiving this thread and am now kicking myself. It's been a while since I added to the collection although many over the pond keep attracting my interest, I think I'm getting withdrawal symptions.
> 
> John


I was wondering the same, John...........have you left us, Shiner, or just lurking now...? Shame about the pics,because they were outstanding.


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## Melville

I have a few railroad watches that I would like to add to this topic. This one is a Hamilton 18 size, 940 with 21 jewels and was made in 1902. It is an open faced model number 1 and is adjusted to 5 positions and is a railroad grade.


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## Melville




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## Melville

Sorry, I'm not used to this posting of pictures yet.


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## Melville

I must be doing something wrong.


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## JWL940

Welcome to the thread Melville, love your 3 watches ;-). I've rather a soft spot for the 940 / 942 which I first met in these pages, one day hopefully.

John


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## Melville

JWL940 said:


> Welcome to the thread Melville, love your 3 watches ;-). I've rather a soft spot for the 940 / 942 which I first met in these pages, one day hopefully.
> 
> John


Sorry about that, but I think I've got the hang of it. I've got one or two other Hamilton railroad watches that might be of interest that I'll post in the next couple of days.


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## Melville

This is one of my Hamiltons. It's a 992 Grade with 21 jewels and the serial number dates it to 1914 which is pretty early for a 992. It has a Canadian 24 hour style dial with the smaller 13 to 24 numbers in red. The movement is in a Keystone silveroid case.


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## Melville

The movement has the early style zig-zag damaskeening to the ratchet and crown wheels.


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## Shiner

This is an interesting watch that I have in my collection. It is a Waltham 18 size Model 1870 Crescent Street and was the first watch to be advertised for sale specifically for railroad use, and referred to as the best watch available(by the makers Waltham of course). It was launched on 1st February, 1871 as a key wind and set movement and was later joined in 1872 by the pendant wind and push set hunter cased version. The key wind model was produced for two years with a total production of 9900 movements, and the pendant set version was produced for 12 years with a total of just 7980 movements. The Model 1870 which was produced only as a Crescent Street, and ceased on the introduction of the Model 1883. This particular movement was made in 1872 and is a pendant wind and push set. The push set is a much rarer version of setting on American watches. We are all acquainted with the lever set, where a small lever is pulled out of the side of the movement. On this watch the lever is in fact pushed in and held in position whilst the hands are adjusted with the winder, similar to the pin set seen on many European watches of the period.


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## Shiner

The original dial is single sunk with Roman Numerals.


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## Shiner

The hunter case.


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## Shiner

The original advertisement.


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## Shiner

Page 2 of advertisement.


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## Shiner

In the picture of the dial you can clearly see the 'pusher' at the 4 o'clock position. I've just stripped the movement down to clean and oil it and was pleased to discover that all the major parts carry the original serial number. It's now running beautifully and keeping excellent time. It still needs the correct period hands to finish it off. I've just noticed that I put the movement's date of manufacture as 1872, it should read 1873.


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## Shiner

I have just added this Waltham to my Railroad Approved collection. It is an 18 size 1892 Model, Vanguard Grade that dates to 1903 It is the highest grade of this model having 23 jewels in gold screwed settings including diamond end stones to the balance. It has a gold 'star' micrometric regulator and gold balance screws and a double roller escapement with a steel escape wheel. The movement is adjusted to temperature and isochronism and 5 positions. The 1892 Model Vanguard Grade was also made with 17, 19 and 21 jewels.


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## Shiner

The movement is lever set and has a 24 hour dial. This type of dial was in use on the Canadian Railroads. It has a silver open faced case by the American Watch Case Company.


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## DJH584

Melville and Shiner

You are both making me green with envy!!!! You both have great looking watches.

I will have to start saving some serious shekels to add one of these to my meagre (for that read poor) collection.


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## Shiner

I think the 1892 Model is my favourite Waltham. This is from the same year, but is a 21 jewel Vanguard with the same damaskeen pattern.


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## Shiner

This is an earlier Model 1892 21 jewel Vanguard with a different damaskeen pattern.


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## Shiner

This is my earliest Model 1892 21 jewel Vanguard. This is a hunter cased movement. The other three are open faced. This one has a different damaskeen pattern again.


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## Will Fly

Lovely Vanguards! This is my 1901, 23-jewel movement:


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## Shiner

That's a nice early 1899 Model Will. This is a later 1899 Model and dates to 1907.


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## Shiner

This one is later still, and is a 1908 Model, and dates to 1910.


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## Shiner

With regard to the 1892 Model. This was originally to be called the Vanguard Model, but Waltham decided to add more named grades, so they decided to call it the 1892 Model after the year of the original design. So the Vanguard became a Grade and not a Model. Other grades were introduced such as the Crescent Street, which was also Railroad Approved.


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## Shiner

And the Appleton Tracy, which was not Railroad Approved.


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## Shiner

Also the two tone Royal Grade, which was also not Railroad Approved.


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## Shiner

There were other grades, such as Riverside, P.S. Bartlett, 845, Canadian Pacific Railway, Canadian Railway Time Service plus some Private labels. The Model 1892 was one of Waltham's most successful watches and possesses everything a collector could ask for. It is a high quality movement in a variety of grades, some short lived like the Riverside and Royal and others, like the Vanguard and Crescent Street and the Appleton Tracy that were made throughout most of the Model '92 production period.


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## MTCowles

Great information on here. Many thanks to all who have contributed.

Love seeing other peoples collections and learning about rr watches.


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## Shiner

This is another railroad approved Waltham Vanguard but with the addition of a winding indicator. It's dates to 1926 and is a 16 size Model 1908. It has 23 jewels mounted in gold settings, with gold main wheel and gold balance and timing screws, adjusted to temperature, isochronism and all 6 positions and an Ohlson regulator. With a triple sunk ceramic dial with bold Arabic numerals and blued steel hands. The movement is housed in the original Keystone 14K green gold filled case. By this time Waltham were fitting these movements 'in house'.


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## Shiner

The movement.


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## Analogue

Will Fly said:


> Thanks for the link to the Timezone site - very interesting.
> 
> One of the fallacies I should have mentioned is that lever set movements were always railroad movements - not so! It became fashionable around the turn of the century for people's ordinary pocket watches to be lever set - even in hunter cases. I recently sold an 18s Elgin from 1902 that was cased in a hunter case. To set the hands, there was a pry point in the bezel - around 2 o'clock - which, when the bezel was lifted, revealed the lever setting. Weird, or what! The movement in this watch was a bog-standard Elgin, 7-jewel movement - very pleasant but nowhere near RR grade.
> 
> I'm happy to say that, included in my collection, are a "B.W. Raymond/Elgin 571", two Illinois "Bunn Specials", a Hamilton 992B and an Elgin "Father Time" - all RR grade and all wonderful watches. However, as time goes on (no pun intended!), I look more and more for watches with perfect dials - no hairlines, cracks, scuffs, chips, etc. - if I can find them. Typical collector's obsession! Mind you, the Ball-Waltham I got recently has the odd hairline or two - but as these are like hens teeth, it didn't matter too much...


I would agree totally as I have a number of US pockets and most are lever set, but don't think any are true Railroaders. I have an Appleton Tracy(Waltham) from the 1880's with lever set but has fine tulip hands and is a sidewinder.


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## Shiner

This is another railroad approved Waltham Model 1908 Vanguard with winding indicator. This one dates to 1935 and the square numerals on the dial is more reminiscent of the art deco period. The movement is housed in a Waltham 14K gold filled 'Railroad' butler-back screw case.


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## Shiner

The movement.


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## Shiner

This third Waltham Vanguard with winding indicator movement is well above the requirements of a railroad watch, but it would NOT have been railroad approved, as it is pendant set, not lever set, which would have been a requirement for approval at the time this movement was produced. This is a high end presentation watch. The movement was shipped to the UK and housed in a Dennison 18 carat gold case. Notice that the English made dial has the letters USA on the dial, something that would not be seen on an American dial. The Vanguard Grade was the only grade to have the lettering on the movement gold filled. All other grades seem to be black filled.

.


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## Shiner

The English made dial with the letters USA.


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## Shiner

Gold filled lettering.


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## Shiner

Watch and presentation case. The watch carries an inscription for 45 years loyal service.


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## MTCowles

Stunning watch


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## MTCowles

Really like the gold filled lettering on the movement


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## Analogue

SORRY CANT GET TO GRIPS WITH THE PICTURE POSTING ON THIS SITE


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## Shiner

This is a Waltham railroad approved Crescent Street Grade which was one step down from the Vanguard. It is housed in same Waltham Railroader case as the second Vanguard shown above but with the 'Straight Line Engraved back as opposed to the plain 'Butler' back.. The Crescent Street is 21 jewels whereas the Vanguard is 23 jewels. Notice the lettering is black not gold. The period advert from the 1930's states the price for the Vanguard is $102 and the Crescent Street is $86.60.


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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## Shiner




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## JWL940

Analogue

Don't give up trying. Here's a thread dedicated to the subject http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13637&st=0 and somewhere Roger has a guide to simplify things, he'll be along shortly I am sure.

Very simplistically you don't post pictures to this forum, you place the picture on a hosting service, photobucket for example, then post the URL of the hosted photo in your post. The guides will explain better than I can. Perserverence is needed, it's a small 'rite of passage' but well worth the effort as I am sure you'll agree from Shiner's photos.

John


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## Analogue

it seem to be the usual system tbh and I have the pictures hosted via photobucket but when I post the url nothing happens...I managed to post a picture in my welcome thread via tapatalk which worked ok.it is a military dial Elgin which runs well.early20th century goldfilled lever set stem wound.


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## Analogue

I am going to try again just posting the url without using the dialogue box.this is not a railway watch but quite nice all the same so bear with me as a test. 

its a 30's Elgin with seconds at 3 oclock. keeps perfect time and runs for about 30 hrs. hear goes.


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## Roger the Dodger

Hi, Analogue....I see you've managed to get a pic up now, so these two videos I made might not be of any use....but have a look anyway...view in full screen mode for best results.


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