# Help required dating a pocket watch



## Bill Hickman (Oct 22, 2016)

I'm looking for a bit of information regarding my grandfathers watch which I have recently inherted. It is from Trattorini & Sons bearing the serial number 415349 (with a "7" stamped above). It also bears the "Suisse" mark on the dial. It is in working order. I also have the key and a 9ct gold chain for it. It needs a good clean and refreshing.

Any information would be very welcome as would a recommendation for a good contact to undertake the cleaning (Bristol area?).

Thanks


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## gimli (Mar 24, 2016)

Post some pictures using this website https://postimage.org/

I think we'll be able to date it by visual appearance but only a few brands can be dated according to their serial numbers because only a few brands have had their papers released publicly to allow dating of a watch.

Most brands would just have serial numbers for themselves or were lost during floods, fires, earthquakes, etc.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Dear Bill, I agree with gimli that photographs would be nice. However, in this case I think that I can offer some useful information about your pocket watch without pics.

If you look closely at the name on your watch, I think you find that it says, "Fattorini & Sons," and this company was founded by Antonio Fattorini (1797-1860), an Italian who founded a business as a jeweller and hardware dealer in 1829, in Leeds.. Antonio then took a shop in Harrogate, Yorkshire, dealing in jewellery and bric-a-brac called the "Oriental Lounge" before later also taking a large building at 28 Kirkgate, Bradford, at which time the firm began trading as "Fattorini & Sons, Goldsmiths, Skipton, Harrogate and Bradford." The Skipton branch had been opened in 1848.

If we have an earliest date for your pocket watch of somewhere in the 1850s, the latest date it could be is more difficult to pin down. However, it will certainly pre-date 1897, when the family business was entered as Fattorini Brothers (John and Edward) and to reinforce the likelihood of your watch dating to before the turn of the century is that in 1903, Thomas Fattorini, who had been at the Skipton branch of the business, took over and started trading under his sole name, Thomas Fattorini. He proceeded to open a branch in Bolton Lancashire, and in 1919 the company became Limited, and traded as Thomas Fatorini (Lancashire) Ltd.

I have glossed over the various changes in family members involved in the Fattorini company, but information is available online. I can say that Fattorini and Sons did use a silver/gold maker's/sponsor's mark, F&S, on silver/gold items but they were not watchmakers. Your pocket watch may well have a case by Dennison, and as for the movement, this will probably be a Swiss movement, perhaps by Valmor, since a Swiss designation appears on your watch. Fattorini watches also exist with American Waltham pocket watch movements.

I have explained that the Fattorini & Sons mark will date your watch to the period approximately 1850-1903. However, looking at some watches from this firm online, it does seem that the mark, "Fattorini & Sons Ltd." was used on watch dials after 1903, most likely after Thomas Fattorini started his limited company. Fortunately, it would seem that your watch is not in this later period, so it is easier to date and place.

I do hope this is of interest to you and I wish you all the best with the restoration of your interesting pocket watch.


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## Bill Hickman (Oct 22, 2016)

Thank you for the information. Trying to add some pictures as suggested, but not sure if I've got it right.

https://postimg.org/image/3r4bxak2b/


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## Bill Hickman (Oct 22, 2016)

https://postimg.org/image/638k8t0pr

https://postimg.org/image/5ondzxqgb/


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## Daveyboyz (Mar 9, 2016)

What I find confusing about this is that it is marked inside F S & B. I wonder what the B stands for and why there is no hallmark (I can see other auctioned pieces from this firm circa 1899 with Chester hallmarks) Also the case is marked .935 which is an unusual standard for silver...English silver is generally either 925 or 950.

If you open the case at the back to expose the movement are there any other marks there? If so maybe we can date it precisely.


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## Bill Hickman (Oct 22, 2016)

I'm struggling to work out how to open the back to see the movement. Any ideas?


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## Daveyboyz (Mar 9, 2016)

Pen knife usually does it... but if you cant find a way in then dont scratch it on my behalf.


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## Bill Hickman (Oct 22, 2016)

Will give it a go. I thought the F&S B stood for Fattorini & Sons Bradford.


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## Bill Hickman (Oct 22, 2016)

I've got this far

https://postimg.org/image/8vry2l8tl/

https://postimg.org/image/auxzg4u1


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

In answer to your query about the mark, Daveyboys, I agree with Bill that the maker's mark in this case stands for Fattorini & Sons, Bradford, However, this is not the standard sponsor's mark for Fattorini & Sons, which is F&S in a rectangle, and I will explain why I think this is.

I believe that the F & S B mark in this case represents a maker's mark of the type used on silver plated items of the later Victorian period rather than on solid silver or gold. I think that this watch was either made in Switzerland and then resold in Britain by Fattorini & Sons or made for the European market - hence the Continental style silver quality mark and the use of the word, "Suisse" on the dial rather that "Swiss" or "Swiss Made."

Thanks for showing the pics and this does seem indeed to be a rather nice watch. I don't know how much it would cost to restore but it would be a shame if such a piece was lost to us, especially if the apparent high grade of the silver case led it to be melted down.

As a final note, I should say that although I treried to be clear about the dating of the Fattorini & Sons designation, I do believe that some watches bearing just the Fattorini & Sons name, without Ltd., will probably date to the period just prior to 1919, but I would expect the majority of pieces so named to pre-date 1903. Watches with "Ltd." after the name should date to the post-1919 period.

Late 19th century Fattorini & Sons 9-carat gold pocket watch with American Waltham movement and engraved case and back (pics from treasuretroveworcester.com):



















In keeping with my own dating method for Fattorini watches, I believe that this rather nice pocket watch has been wrongly dated by the seller to the 1920s. By rights, it should certainly date to before 1919, and my feeling is that this one may just predate 1903 when the name of the company was definitely Fattorini & Sons. The rolled gold Dennison case bears a Dennison "STAR" mark verifying the particular quality of the rolled gold, and the Dennison firm was certainly advertising their three"SUN, MOON, and STAR" grades of rolled gold by 1906. (pic from images.antiquesatlas.com):


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## Seismic one (Jun 21, 2008)

Daveyboyz said:


> What I find confusing about this is that it is marked inside F S & B. I wonder what the B stands for and why there is no hallmark (I can see other auctioned pieces from this firm circa 1899 with Chester hallmarks) Also the case is marked .935 which is an unusual standard for silver...English silver is generally either 925 or 950.
> 
> If you open the case at the back to expose the movement are there any other marks there? If so maybe we can date it precisely.


 Silver swiss watches did use .935 on a regular basis, i have two longines showing this silver content.


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## Bill Hickman (Oct 22, 2016)

Thanks guys - teally appreciate your help. I'm looking at restoring this watch along with my other grandfathers, an 1883 Benson (the marks are much easier to identify). Unlike tge Fattorini, the Benson is non-working, has some damage to the face and the second hand is missing.

Thanks again for the info.


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## Karrusel (Aug 13, 2016)

Interesting item on Antiques Roadshow just been on!

Fattorini & Sons won the competion to design the original FA cup in 1911, from 250 submitted designs!

One of the family decendants has also produced the original design!

The cup has been valued at £1,000,000 plus.

Nice family provenance! :notworthy:

I was there, first to identify me wins a prize?


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## Bill Hickman (Oct 22, 2016)

Just watched it (excuse the pun). You were the chap in te background. Right?


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

Alan's Antique roadshow competition has been moved to here :

http://xflive.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/106421-antiques-roadshow-competition/&do=embed


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## brummie1875 (May 2, 2016)

*After following this thread from the beginning ( i know less about pocket watches than the little i know of wristwatches) and then seeing the reference to the FA Cup from the same maker, whilst looking for a new auction buy within my price range i came across this. Blooming small world within the last few days.*

*https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/bamfords/catalogue-id-bamfor10346/lot-515f5706-5917-4e21-a3fa-a6a000aaf3d9*


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