# Feiko's



## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

I read one member express fear at buying a vintage Seiko chrono because of information he read on there being a lot of fakes around.

I suspect this has originated from the Seiko/Citizen forum.

I don't know if we have anyone here who contributes to this forum who can perhaps provide photo's, or links, or indeed any evidence that the S/C forum have produced to back up this claim.

I for one am very curious to explore this.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Andy said:


> I read one member express fear at buying a vintage Seiko chrono because of information he read on there being a lot of fakes around.
> 
> I suspect this has originated from the Seiko/Citizen forum.
> 
> ...


Here's a prime example.

Check out Simons response on the following.

http://www.larrybiggs.net/scwf/index.php?m...0&id=1137717782

Erm Simon.

Actually Seiko did sign their Bullhead dials, SPEEDTIMER for some markets


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

I saw one fake "5" on ebay about a year ago, selling as brand new the watch just didn't look right, I asked if they could do a movement shot which they were reluctant to do but after some nagging they sent me a picture and from what I saw I would have thought it was a different watch, it probably was, there were no seiko markings at all anywhere on the movement and it looked very poor quality.

I emailed back asking if it was the same watch etc they didn't reply and low and behold the austion was ended early.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

PG

I don't deny that Feiko's exist.

I own one myself that I bought knowingly.

You will see that what I'm questioning is the existence of Feiko 6138/9 automatic chrono's.


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

Andy said:


> I read one member express fear at buying a vintage Seiko chrono because of information he read on there being a lot of fakes around.
> 
> I suspect this has originated from the Seiko/Citizen forum.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what it is you are asking without seeing the original posts you are referring to. But I Wrote two buying guides at SCWF for vintage Seiko's. One for 6309 divers and the other for 6138 bullheads. My information was verified by multiple sources, including information contributed by collectors, Watchmakers specialising on these two specific products, parts catalogues, and seiko's own catalogues for the years of production.

I can't tell you that everything is 100% correct, but the info is very close.

If someone is going to buy any vintage watch, not just seiko's, they should really strive to do their homework before hand so as to have an idea and an expectation of what they are getting themselves into.

No one ever recomended not buying something if it's not 100%, but at least know what you are getting and learn how to make the price you are paying match the item. There are too many stories of people who have paid serious premiums for a watch, only to find out later that they've been stuck with a gussied up junker (yes that includes me). I have no problem buying a watch that's not perfect, so long as the price reflects what I'm buying, and I have an idea of what it's going to cost me to get the watch in the condition I desire. I think that's really the lesson to be learned from all this.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Isthmus

What I read there was a very well written and informed article/description of the Seiko 6138cal Bullhead series.

However please could you point me toward any evidence, perhaps some photo's, to show that vintage Seiko mechanical chrono's are actually being faked.

That was the point of this thread.

At the moment all I've read a lot of here say and have seen no actual proof.

I'm not talking about lash up's.

I'm talking about actual fakes.

Do they really exist and where's the evidence.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Andy, I think a few people are talking cross purposes here and I think your right,

a lot of people are refering to bodge up, put togther watches with miss matched movements, wrong hands, redials etc as fakes, but what they should be saying is ' not original '

To answer your question, no I dont think there are fake vintage chronos around, just bodged up crap ones...


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Jason

I agree with you and Isthmus.

As these vintage Seiko's become rarer and more sought after, it's inevitable that they are going to appear more often as "lash ups" and as has already been pointed out, if you are new to these particular watches, as with any watch, it's best to seek advice.


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## deano42 (Jun 12, 2005)

Hi all

Thanks for this thread, its good that people are made aware that the vintage Seikos are not as original as a buyer may think.

Like any commodity, as the demand increases (supply drops) the prices will subsequently increase. This has been seen with the Seiko divers 6105 & 6309 to the extent where 98% of them (on ebay) are not original; i.e. one watch may be composed of several other watches.

This trend will naturally follow onto the 6138 & 6139, should the current interest in Seiko continue.

At the end of the day it knowledge, common sence and the term "buy the buyer".

By using the untapped knowledge of forums like this make the buying of a Seiko (or any watch) an easier task.

Thanks and have a good weekend

deano


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

deano42 said:


> Hi all
> 
> Thanks for this thread, its good that people are made aware that the vintage Seikos are not as original as a buyer may think.
> 
> ...


Deano

Thing is, when buying any vintage watch, if the correct parts are used, how do you know that any watch is not composed of several other watches ?

After all watches like these don't come with registration documents and MOT's.

If you bought a Vintage Seiko diver that was composed of parts from other identical doners, how would you know.

Of course, you wouldn't and at the end of the day it doesn't matter and is not worth worrying about provided that all the details are correct.

Anyone buying a watch believing it to be totally original and exactly as it started off in life is purely taking the sellers word for it.

There is no way of knowing for sure.

Even if you're an expert.


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

I see what you mean Andy. No I have not seen any 100% fake vintage seiko chronos out there. I have seen several 100% fake supposedly vintage seiko divers though. They turn up on the bay fairly regularly. There are tons of simple seiko 5 fakes out there as well. The closest I've seen to a vintage chrono knowck off has been one of those Mexitime watches we were talking about the other day, but then again, that didn't claim to be a Seiko.

It's a good rule of thumb, at least when it comes to seiko's, that fakes and knock-off's tend to occur with basic models, which are easy to produce and unload cheaply. You'll most likely find elaborate knock offs of chrono's and unique watches from pricier brands.

As deano said, the best policy is probably to buy the seller and to do your homework.



Andy said:


> Deano
> 
> Thing is, when buying any vintage watch, if the correct parts are used, how do you know that any watch is not composed of several other watches ?
> 
> ...


I have to agree with you on this point. To me, unless I'm looking for a perfect model (which I rarely am), finding a nicely restored model with parts sourced from oem parts or parts sourced from the exact same type of donor watch, is not a problem. the way I see it is, if I had sent the watch to seiko for repair when parts were available, seiko would have just swapped the old parts for new ones. to me so long as the watch is what it was supposed to be or waords as it was inteded, it's not that big a deal.

then again, I'm not in the habit of collecting pieces worth several thousands of dollars.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Isthmus

I've just had a closer read of your very in depth article.

One point you bought up was the diffuculty in obtaining one with a scratch free bezel insert.

Well, I did actually own one with a completely unmarked bezel from Roy sometime back.

In fact the whole watch was mint and you know what I did.

Sold it when I was having building work done to my house and needed the cash









Perhaps it's better to own watches that have a degree of honest wear and tear as otherwise you end up too frightened to wear the things.


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## deano42 (Jun 12, 2005)

Hi guys

Thanks for the comments Andy.

I can only speak from my experience, but when I buy I have a set of questions that are very specific, plus I ask fo extra photos.

Once happy with the seller and then the answers to my questions I buy the watch.

As soon as it lands here in Finland, the watch goes straight to my watchmaker; who is a real watchmaker and not a high street jeweler. He will give it a full service and then advise me if any additional work needs doing to the watch.

So far I have only been bitten real bad once (from 30 Seiko watches), I scored a 6105 that had a redial.!

Andy, as you have your reading head on take a look here, it may not answer your question, indeed it may make you ask more questions:

Read me.!

Thanks

deano


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Deano

I do not claim to be an expert but I have handled a lot of Seiko vintage chrono's over the years to be able to claim that this is my area of speciality.

When I'm looking at buying one, I'm only interested in knowing that all of the component parts are correct.

So for instance in the case of my most recent purchase, a 6138-0030

Is the bezel insert correct, (these can be interchanged), does it have the correct hands and subdial hands.

Are these correct and the right colour and of course does it have the proper caseback, and has the case been badly polished, and so on.

If it's had cosmetic parts replaced that's fine because the only way of knowing is if these are not correct for the model in question.

Point being that no matter how fastidious you are, there is absolutely no way of knowing if a watch has the same external component parts that it started it's life with.

That's a reality we all have to face up to no matter how knowledgeable we think we are.

If a seller advertises his watch as totally original, how can you tell.

If it has had new genuine Seiko parts used that are correct for that model, you simply cannot tell, no matter how many questions you ask.

All I'm saying is that these watches are now too old to be 100% certain as to originality.

By the way vintage Seiko 's are nigh on impossible to re-dial well.


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## pugster (Nov 22, 2004)

dont think ive ever seen a redialled seiko , i have however seen some right messes of mixed parts which are easy to spot, as for fakes i dont think ive ever seen one of those either,i mean ,whats the point in faking a cheap watch ??? ,some of the newer models such as the landmaster etc may be worth faking but not a watch that only cost <Â£100 years ago and is still worth about the same now,alot of seiko watches on ebay seem to auto come with the word 'rare' for some reason,personally i think that it usually means 'rare' as in 'you dont usually see this many parts mixed together from different models'







.


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