# Heads Up On A 'Rare' 7A38 Diver On Ebay



## SEIKO7A38

I am spending WAY too much time studying photos of 7A38's on eBay lately. 

But sometimes it pays to, it seems. :huh:

I'd noticed a new eBay listing for what initially *appears to be* a well-used 7A38-*7080*.

Here's a couple of photos from the UK seller's listing:



















Notice anything ? I didn't straight away. :blush: ....

But a black chrome-plated 7A38-7080 should have a yellow or orange sweep second hand.

It should also have black sub-dials, exactly the same colour as the dial face ....

Not in slightly contrasting dark grey, as per the similar stainless 7A38-7070.

Interesting ? :lookaround:

Well, compare those two photos with the rather better quality photos in this eBay listing from February:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270524296578

.... and note the amazingly coincidential similarity in the graunches around both watch bezels.









Me ? No, I'll be the first admit I'm not averse to swapping dial face / movements around between 7A38's.

But if you're going to do it, fer Chris'sake - Get it RIGHT !!! :angry:


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## minkle

Nice spot.

Really like the original.


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> But a black chrome-plated 7A38-7080 should have a yellow or orange sweep second hand.
> 
> It should also have black sub-dials, exactly the same colour as the dial face ....
> 
> *Not in slightly contrasting dark grey, as per the similar stainless 7A38-7070*.


I've just 'borrowed' one of Derek's ('LuvWatch') photos of his 7A38-7080 (Left) and 7A38-7070 (Right):










.... to illustrate the correct case bracelet finish / dial face combinations. Thanks, Derek !! :thumbsup:


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## levon2807

Glad you spotted this one mate, it was on my radar!


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## Vieira

Great job Holmes!... ^_^


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## SEIKO7A38

Vieira said:


> Great job Holmes!... ^_^


As in Sherlock Holmes ? :huh: I prefer Dick Tracey, personally. :wink2: Just *Watch*ing the *Detective*s. :hi:










Edit: Plus it really annoys me when people use expressions like ***V Very RARE*** to describe a 'Franken'. :angry:


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## LuvWatch

Good spot Paul, a picture of the case back would clarify whether it was a put together or a variant on the model.

Here is a better photo of an original 7A38-7080










Regards

Derek


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## SEIKO7A38

LuvWatch said:


> Good spot Paul, a picture of the case back ....


Derek.

That also depends whether the seller swapped the original 7A38-7080 case-back ....

which if my suspicions are correct was originally serial number 445020 - for another.



LuvWatch said:


> .... would clarify whether it was a put together or a variant on the model.


You have access to Seiko Oceania's database, the same as I, and everybody else does, fortunately:

http://service.seiko.com.au/pls/seiko/f?p=104:20:3939904550447288

Try doing a break-down (by case #) and then a reverse look-up (where used) on the two part dial numbers.

The 7A38709LXB*1*3 dial (the one with dark grey sub-dials) is only used in the 7A38-*7070*.

The 7A38709LXB*2*3 dial (with the matching black sub-dials) is only used in the 7A38-*7080*.

Trust me - it's a 'put together' (Franken) - not a Seiko factory-produced variant.







.... or a 7A38-*7075* perhaps. :rofl:


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## Zimmer

Great spot, I think I better start looking closer when I'm on Ebay.


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## SEIKO7A38

Zimmer said:


> Great spot, I think I better start looking closer when I'm on Ebay.


My pleasure to share the info. I'd like to think I've learned a lot about Seiko 7A38's in the the last 12 months. B)

In fact, although I hate to admit :blush:, it's almost 12 months to the day since I bought a 'Franken' 7A38-702x ....

http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=39816&view=findpost&p=422910 - from notorious eBay seller (Franken creator) 'SpeedTimerKollektion'. :duh:

You live and learn, as the saying goes.


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## levon2807

While we're at it, watch out for a certain Filipino Time Sonar on eBay...it has a repainted chrono hand


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## SEIKO7A38

levon2807 said:


> While we're at it, watch out for a certain Filipino Time Sonar on eBay...*it has a repainted chrono hand*.


The Filipino 'watch-cookers' and SpeedTimerKollection in Spain aren't the only ones producing Frankens.

Another 'Home-Brewed' 7A38 'Special', from the UK, came up in one of my eBay saved searches this morning.










Check out the 'custom' *red* Tachymeter dial ring (God knows where that came from), and the *SEIKO* logo.

This watch once was a black-chrome plated 7A38-7180.

Apart from being stripped of most of it's black coating - it's also fitted with a (stripped) 7A38-7290 bracelet.

Quotes from the seller's description:



> Seiko 1985 chronograph, *mine from new first thing* i brought when i started work.
> 
> Watch all works but stop watch buttons are a bit sticky.
> 
> Glass has fine marks *watch was originally black but with time has polished up silver*.


You've got to wonder which bits.


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Check out the 'custom' *red* Tachymeter dial ring (God knows where that came from), and the *SEIKO* logo.
> 
> This watch once was a black-chrome plated 7A38-7180.
> 
> Apart from being stripped of most of it's black coating - it's also fitted with a (stripped) 7A38-7290 bracelet.


Just got a reply from the seller:



> hello, the ring was silver from a silver version of the same watch, it was dipped in translusent red paint.
> 
> The red inner ring was from a friends watch he had my black one.
> 
> The bracelet was replaced in the service it had in the 90s.


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## levon2807

Yep it's not watchcooking that's for sure...I think it was clm? It's only a re-painted chrono hand but still...


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## capnblack

It just goes to show that you have to be careful. I could easily be fobbed off with something dubious .... at this stage!


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## levon2807

capnblack said:


> It just goes to show that you have to be careful. I could easily be fobbed off with something dubious .... at this stage!


I'm a year on this forum (don't let the info on the left fool you) and I still got dupped the other day with a fake


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## mrteatime

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> The Filipino 'watch-cookers' and *SpeedTimerKollection* in Spain aren't the only ones producing Frankens.


now let this be a warning to anybody bidding on a seiko from them....don't....they sell only mingdog seiko's of the very worst type....the type that don't work and have superglue holding them together...

don't buy unless you want a proper minger of a seiko


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## SEIKO7A38

mrteatime said:


> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> *SpeedTimerKollection* in Spain aren't the only ones producing Frankens.
> 
> 
> 
> now let this be a warning to anybody bidding on a seiko from them....
> 
> don't ....they sell only mingdog seiko's of the very worst type
> 
> ....the type that don't work and have superglue holding them together...
> 
> don't buy unless you want a proper minger of a seiko
Click to expand...

Actually, Shawn ....

That 'Franken' Seiko 7A38-7020 I inadvertantly bought from them last year didn't have any superglue ! 

It took me a while (months in fact) to figure out what the dial face had been built from. :blush:

I now know that it was the upper layer from a 7A38-7020 Silver Grey dial face ....

.... with the black back layer of the dial (with the sub-dials) from a 7A38-7029. 

I began to suspect that something was wrong, when I noticed that the subdials were no longer centred. :huh:

So I dismantled it. The two halves of a 7A38 dial face are normally held together with minuscule brass rivets.

The upper portion of the dial face was floating loose - held in place mostly by the Tachymeter dial ring.

They had sanded off the rivets - probably when the two original donor dial faces were split. :angry:

So, after I had re-aligned them, exactly - *I superglued* the two halves together myself. :tongue2:

Incidentally, you'd be surprised at the number of people that have passed favourable comments on the watch's appearance.

A couple of other 7A38 collectors have expressed an interest in it too !! :shocking:

What's even more shocking, is that I plan to build another one - almost exactly the same - but properly !! :jawdrop:

The original 'SpeedtimerKollection' 7A38-7020 Franken will then go probably back on eBay ....

.... properly described as such, naturally.


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> I am spending WAY too much time studying photos of 7A38's on eBay lately.
> 
> But sometimes it pays to, it seems. :huh:
> 
> I'd noticed a new eBay listing for what initially *appears to be* a well-used 7A38-*7080*.
> 
> Here's a couple of photos from the UK seller's listing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice anything ? I didn't straight away. :blush: ....


Well I guess it was bound to happen, sooner or later. <_< Someone has put an opening bid (of *Â£100*) on it !


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## mel

The truthful bit of any Franken descriptions is usually the *"VERY RARE"* or *"V. VERY RARE"* bit! :yes:

(Well it's true, in'nit mate? ) If you build one from bitz of others and it's not right with the original, then it's *rare* - right? :rofl2:


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## Service Engineer

Totally ignoring the fact that it might, or might not, be as it left the factory - if it works and it's what the buyer wants and is prepared to pay for - what's the problem ?

Quite a few of you guys have modified Seikos and sold them on at a later date. I don't recall any such indignant outbursts when these watches were offered for sale so why all the fuss about this one ?

Beauty, they say, is in the eye of the beholder. So it's not 100% original. So what.

I quite like it and I'd rather wear this than some of the hideous Casio rubber/plastic looking 'Lucky Bag' items that seem so popular with the some of the purists on the forum.

Just to really give the red flag a final wave at the purists - as well as a few Seikos, I wear, and enjoy wearing, an Alpha 'Speedy'.

Have a nice day and may The Force be with you ! :thumbsup:


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## SEIKO7A38

Service Engineer said:


> Totally ignoring the fact that it might, or might not, be as it left the factory - if it works and it's what the buyer wants and is prepared to pay for - what's the problem ?
> 
> Beauty, they say, is in the eye of the beholder. *So it's not 100% original*. So what?


First line of the seller's description states:



> This is an original and Very rare Seiko 7a38 pilots watch from around 1983/4 ish.


I presume from the manner of your reply, you are in no way affiliated with the eBay seller. :hypocrite:


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## Service Engineer

No affiliation at all.

As regards the seller claiming it was 100% original. I suppose it all depends on your interpretation of original.

I've seen some real abortions of modded watches, cars and bikes and their only redeeming feature was at least they were original. There wasn't another one like it in existence. At least he didn't claim it was genuine - just original.

A play on words that would probably get him off any legal hook.


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## capnblack

levon2807 said:


> capnblack said:
> 
> 
> 
> It just goes to show that you have to be careful. I could easily be fobbed off with something dubious .... at this stage!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a year on this forum (don't let the info on the left fool you) and I still got dupped the other day with a fake
Click to expand...

I suppose it's still relatively easy to be fobbed off. I think sometimes its "pays your money and takes your choice", especially with anything "used".


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## jss

> A play on words that would probably get him off any legal hook.


Well, he may not have done anything illegal but itâ€™s a bit naughty describing it like that.

As an inexperienced collector, if I saw a watch advertised as an original I would expect it to be as it was when it left the factory, or any replaced parts to be like for like replacements.


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## Service Engineer

jss said:


> A play on words that would probably get him off any legal hook.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, he may not have done anything illegal but itâ€™s a bit naughty describing it like that.
> 
> As an inexperienced collector, if I saw a watch advertised as an original I would expect it to be as it was when it left the factory, or any replaced parts to be like for like replacements.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more with you on that point. It was naughty to be so misleading with a description like his.

It goes to show how careful you have to be when not only looking at the pictures but also the description that goes with them.

When you think about it the word 'original' can be used to describe two totally different meanings.

There's the obvious "As it left the factory" meaning which 99.99% of people would assume. But there's also the "That's original" which is what we say when we see something used or something done in a totally different way from the normal.

I help train a lot of our new service engineers and every so often one of them will come up with a totally new way of carrying out a particular job. The comment I hear from the experienced engineers who observe it is nearly always "Well that's original". See what I mean ?

I have never intended in any of my posts to defend a seller who's knowingly making false claims to sell his items. That's a definite No No. If it's been modified and isn't "As it left the factory" - the seller should say so. On that point I agree 100% with everyone who's made the point.

Have a nice day and thanks for taking the time to contribute to this post.

Chris :thumbsup:


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> .... Just *Watch*ing the *Detective*s. :hi:


Continuing my investigations ....



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Well, compare those two photos with the rather better quality photos in this eBay listing from February:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270524296578
> 
> .... and note the amazingly coincidential similarity in the graunches around both watch bezels.


I can now confirm my earlier suspicions ....

that the buyer of the original un-molested 7A38-7080 (from eBay in USA in the first week of February),

.... and the less than scrupulous current eBay seller of this subtly mis-represented 'Franken',

.... are both located in the same town in the North-East of England. Quel Surprise. Not. :disgust:


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> First line of the seller's description states:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an original and Very rare Seiko 7a38 pilots watch from around 1983/4 ish.
Click to expand...




mel said:


> The truthful bit of any Franken descriptions is usually the *"VERY RARE"* or *"V. VERY RARE"* bit! :yes:


I took another look at the rest of the seller's description, last night ....

.... and these couple of sentences (order reversed) made me chuckle to myself. :rofl:



> This version 7A38 is basically rarest of them all from what have read *due to being factory black PVD coated*.


Oh Really ??? :huh: Is that what makes it 'Rare' ? :taunt:



> the only wear really is to the strap with PVD wear but easily sorted with a touch up enamel and patience????


Absolutely classic !


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> I'd noticed a new eBay listing for what initially *appears to be* a well-used 7A38-*7080*.
> 
> Here's a couple of photos from the UK seller's listing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I guess it was bound to happen, sooner or later. <_< Someone has put an opening bid (of *Â£100*) on it !


Anybody else got this on their eBay watching page ? :huh:

Bidding is now up to *Â£150*, with 3 days to go .... and a *Zero-Feedback* bidder as the high bidder.


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> .... are both located in the same town in the North-East of England. Quel Surprise. Not. :disgust:


Grrrr !!! :taz: Fashun-Mashun !!!  Darned editing window time-out !! :angry:

I did of course mean to type: 'the same town in the North-*West* of England.'


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## SEIKO7A38

In a similar vein, but with absolutely no claims to being 'Rare' (or even a '7A38', for that matter ) ....

This, which might at first glance appear to be a Seiko 7A38-7070 (the sister model to the 7A38-7080 discussed here):










.... just listed this afternoon, by a seller in Istanbul, Turkey .... *is a complete and utter* 'Franken', of the first degree.

7A38-7070 Case and Bezel, fitted with 7A38-706A dial face and case-back and bodged bracelet of unknown origin. :umnik2:

Seller's description simply reads:



> *Vintage used **casio** quartz chronograph watch .All fanctions are working.The watch is used.*


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> I'd noticed a new eBay listing for what initially *appears to be* a well-used 7A38-*7080*.
> 
> Here's a couple of photos from the UK seller's listing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Notice anything ? I didn't straight away. :blush: ....
> 
> But a black chrome-plated 7A38-7080 should have a yellow or orange sweep second hand.
> 
> It should also have black sub-dials, exactly the same colour as the dial face ....
> 
> Not in slightly contrasting dark grey, as per the similar stainless 7A38-7070.





SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Anybody else got this on their eBay watching page ? :huh:
> 
> Bidding is now up to *Â£150*, with 3 days to go .... and a *Zero-Feedback* bidder as the high bidder.


That 7A38-7080/-7070 'Franken' (the original subject of this thread) ....

Now has 7 bids placed and has reached *Â£180.00* with 6 hours of the auction still to go !! :shocking:

Whoever buys this is going to end up 'catching a cold'.


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> That 7A38-7080/-7070 'Franken' (the original subject of this thread) ....
> 
> Now has 7 bids placed and has reached *Â£180.00* with 6 hours of the auction still to go !! :shocking:
> 
> Whoever buys this is going to end up 'catching a cold'.


In case anybody who was interested couldn't find the listing while it was still current:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180484334481 .... it ended at *Â£210.00*.


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## ibaranenko

Love the yellow one... :man_in_love: ... now I put it on my wishlist :to_become_senile:


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## SEIKO7A38

Funny how sometimes things we write, based on experience to date, turn round and bite you in the A$$.



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> I am spending WAY too much time studying photos of 7A38's on eBay lately.
> 
> But sometimes it pays to, it seems. :huh:





SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> .... (Franken) - not a Seiko factory-produced variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... or a 7A38-*7075* perhaps. :rofl:





capnblack said:


> It just goes to show that you have to be careful. I could easily be fobbed off with something dubious ....


Another unusual 'rare' variant of the much-loved 7A38-70xx 'Diver' surfaced on eBay in *Brazil* overnight.

Except I think this one is quite possibly genuine (if not 100% original).  Never seen one before. :shocking:

Check out eBay item # 250822095718, if you haven't already seen it:



> *WATCH SEIKO VINTAGE MILITARY CHRONOGRAPH (7A38) RARITY*














> *MODEL: MENâ€™S, MILITARY CHRONOGRAPH (7A38-7085), EIGHTIES.*
> 
> *
> MOVEMENT: Original and excellent movement, Quartz, Chronograph (30m, 60s and 1/10 sub-seconds), **Made in Japan**, Caliber: 7A38, 15 Jewels (rarity), signed: SEIKO. In perfect working order and keeping excellent time.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> DIAL: Original and very good black dial. Very good hands. Please check photos.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> CALENDAR: Calendar window at 03h00, quick adjust in the first stage of the crown, working as it shoult. Perfect calendar weels, completely readable.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> CASE: Very well preserved case, light wear marks, stainless steel, measuring: 43x40x11mm (pushers/crown and lugs not included). Please check photos.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> BOTTOM: Stainless steel screwed bottom, excellent condition, perfect closure, soft wear marks, signed: SEIKO (**7A38-7085**), serial number: **98**4253. **Please check photos**.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> CROWN / PUSHERS: Impeccable and Original crown and pushers. *
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> CRYSTAL: Original, mineral crystal, few and soft scratches. Please check photos.*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> BRACELET: Original bracelet, stainless steel, excellent condition, good size, very few wear marks, signed: SEIKO SQ - JAPAN B.*


Note: 7A38-*7085* - not 7A38-7070 (nor 7A38-7080) which we're more used to seeing.

And although the seller quotes 'Made in Japan', I believe this is actually a *ZFM* Brazilian produced 7A38.









It appears to have been fitted with a cut-down after-market or other Seiko bezel insert, which is a pity. 

The bracelet part number stamped on the undersides of the end links is B1075, rather than B1241.

This is the very similar appearing 'hinged' bracelet used on the 7A28-7040/-7049, rather than a 7A38-7070.

They're virtually indistinguishable, but the links on the B1075S are slightly thinner and hence the bracelet is lighter.


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Note: 7A38-*7085* - not 7A38-7070 (nor 7A38-7080) which we're more used to seeing.
> 
> And although the seller quotes 'Made in Japan', I believe this is actually a *ZFM* *Brazilian produced* 7A38.


What convinces me of this are the very small badly worn additional stampings you can see on the photo of the case-back:










Between the 'Double Wave' logo and METAL ST. STEEL. Note also 'AM' near the serial number. :blind:

Very similar in appearance to the stampings found on the back of 7A38-7295's - the ZFM-produced version of the 7A38-7290.

The most interesting thing for me is the dial fitted:










*At first glance* ....

it appears to be the all-black 709L dial from a 7A38-7080, rather than the one with grey subdials from a 7A38-7070.

But then look again. Notice anything missing ? :huh: How about the 'SPORTS 100' graphic, from under Chronograph ?

Think I need to ask a question (or two) of the eBay seller. :naughty:

As with the few 7A38-7295's I've seen, the *98*4235 serial number also indicates (late for 7A38) production in August 1989.


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> The most interesting thing for me is the dial fitted:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *At first glance* ....
> 
> it appears to be the all-black 709L dial from a 7A38-7080 ....
> 
> Notice anything missing ? :huh: How about the 'SPORTS 100' graphic, from under Chronograph ?


It's almost impossible to discern from the eBay seller's poor quality photos, but I reckon the dial could be ....

The same slightly modified 722*S* dial (without 'JAPAN' printed at the bottom) as used in the ZFM 7A38-7295:


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## 7A28lvr

When questioned about lume problems at the 4 and 5 o'clock hour markers, the seller initally replied, "no problem, the dial is perfect". Upon further questioning he finally relented and admitted that there is a "cipher of aging on the fluorescent".


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## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Think I need to ask a question (or two) of the eBay seller. :naughty:


I hadn't got round to messaging the seller (about the dial and case-back markings) yet. :blush:

But I'd noticed that he'd changed almost all his listing photos since yesterday morning. :lookaround:

Perhaps it might have been better if he hadn't posted that extra photo of the movement:










Check out the state of the crown release hole. :butcher: The adjustment also appears to be set to maximum advance. :thumbsdown:


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## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Think I need to ask a question (or two) of the eBay seller. :naughty:
> 
> 
> 
> I hadn't got round to messaging the seller (about the dial and case-back markings) yet. :blush:
> 
> But I'd noticed that he'd changed almost all his listing photos since yesterday morning. :lookaround:
> 
> Perhaps it might have been better if he hadn't posted that extra photo of the movement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check out the state of the crown release hole. :butcher: The adjustment also appears to be set to maximum advance. :thumbsdown:
Click to expand...

I wouldn't bother. When confronted with several discrepancies, the sellers convoluted explanation involved the possibility of a mixup in casebacks, as he has several 7a38s. By the way, there is another one up in the U.S. Ebay item number 130522660281.


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## watchking1

Looks like I'd stay away from the Brazil model and the US listing starts at a modest $300usd


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## 7A28lvr

watchking1 said:


> Looks like I'd stay away from the Brazil model and the US listing starts at a modest $300usd


As far as eBay U.S. item number 130522660281 is concerned, I am going to have to defer to SEIKO7A38FAN, as I am not nearly knowledgeable enough to even attempt to dissect that one. I must admit that the number 12 at the top of the dial is intriguing. I also like how the seller rewrites the history of Seiko so that the release date of the first Seiko Quartz Chronograph coincides with the manufacture date of his watch. I guess the Seiko 7A28-701A Quartz Chronograph on my wrist must be a forgery as it was manufactured in late 1982 and released in 1983. All this coming from a seller with 15 eBay transactions and a positive feedback rating of 87.5%.


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## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> I wouldn't bother. When confronted with several discrepancies, the sellers convoluted explanation involved the possibility of a mixup in casebacks, as he has several 7a38s.


I'm more interested in this 7A38-7085 from an academic standpoint (rather than buying it, especially at that price).

Presumably at least the watch case and ZFM-stamped case-back are correct and original to the Brazilian model.

What I'd like to try and establish is whether that 722S? dial and B1075S bracelet are are also correct for it.

It's possible, as was the case with the 7A38-7070's shown earlier in this thread, that it's a bitza 'Franken'.

There's no mention of it in Seiko Oceania's database, as was the case with the ZFM-built 7A38-7295.

When I first saw one of those come up for sale in the Philippines, I wasn't quite sure what to make of it.

The remaining traces of the ZFM (Zona Franca Manaus) stampings and a case model # ending in 5 are a good start.



7A28lvr said:


> By the way, there is another one up in the U.S. Ebay item number 130522660281.


Thanks for pointing it out, but although it looks similar, that's actually a totally different 7A38 case model. It's a 7A38-6010.

Much smaller watch case. Only about 37mm across - the black chrome plated version of my own 7A38-6000 'Dinky Diver'.



7A28lvr said:


> As far as eBay U.S. item number 130522660281 is concerned, I am going to have to defer to SEIKO7A38FAN, as I am not nearly knowledgeable enough to even attempt to dissect that one. I must admit that the number 12 at the top of the dial is intriguing.


The '12 at the top of the dial' is correct for both the 7A38-6000 and -6010 models. :thumbsup:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> I guess the Seiko 7A28-701A Quartz Chronograph on my wrist ....


One of my favourite 'Speedmaster' style 7A28's, which have almost tempted me on quite a few occasions. :man_in_love:

Interesting choice of username. Do I know you ? Do you also perchance have an affinity for Yacht Timers ?


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> I hadn't got round to messaging the seller (about the dial and case-back markings) yet. :blush:
> 
> But I'd noticed that he'd changed almost all his listing photos since yesterday morning. :lookaround:





7A28lvr said:


> I wouldn't bother. When confronted with several discrepancies ....


One of which must surely be the fairly recent colour change of the sweep second hand. 

Originally silvery-white, in his first set of listing photos:










Now yellow (possibly faded from orangey-red) in the current set of photos:










Definately been messed with, and one to avoid, despite it's potential rarity value. :thumbsdown:



7A28lvr said:


> When questioned about lume problems at the 4 and 5 o'clock hour markers ....


Note the 1/10 second sub-dial hand is no longer hitting the mark, either. Perhaps he's since swapped the dial too ? :hammer:


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38FAN,

That Brazilian is nothing if not a resourceful and responsive seller. He did mention having five 7A38's and I am beginning to believe him. As for myself, my name is Bruce, I live in North Carolina and I am primarily interested in the 7A28-70xx series. Much of the knowledge shared by you on this forum regarding the 7A38 series also applies to the 7A28 series and that knowledge is extremely helpful in allowing an amateur like myself to safely negotiate eBay. Thanks


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> As for myself, my name is Bruce, I live in North Carolina and I am primarily interested in the 7A28-70xx series.


Hi, Bruce, and :welcome: to :rltb:



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Interesting choice of username. Do I know you ? Do you also perchance have an affinity for Yacht Timers ?


I thought you might possibly be another collector specializing in 7A28's that I knew.
 








He also has a 7A28-701A in his collection, but normally posts on SCWF using his actual name as his username.











7A28lvr said:


> That Brazilian is nothing if not a resourceful and responsive seller. He did mention having five 7A38's ....


*Only* 5 ? :huh: :schmoll:

:grin: Seriously, though, I wonder how many of them are ZFM built models - possibly 7A38-7295's, like the one overleaf. :think:

I'll write some more in reply, later. Gotta rush. :jump:


----------



## 7A28lvr

Thanks for the welcome. Maybe you can gently coax the seller into putting all the right parts together to create a true and original specimen. I ran the photo of the caseback through my photo editor and after adding contrast, darkening, etc., I was still only able to discern the letters Z and M in the top line. The rest is illegible.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> I ran the photo of the caseback through my photo editor and after adding contrast, darkening, etc.,
> 
> I was still only able to discern the letters Z and M in the top line. The rest is illegible.


I went through exactly the same exercise myself, about a year ago, funnily enough, Bruce. 

As I think wrote in one of the previous posts, the first ZFM-built 7A38 I ever came across was a

7A38-7295, which turned up on eBay in the Philippines in June 2009 (offered by JosÃ© 'watchcooking' Sotto).

It was a little tired looking, with the usual worn black chrome plating, fitted with a black leather strap.

I didn't understand the significance of a case model ending in '5' at the time, nor the extra stampings.

As I've habitually done for the last 2Â½ years, I right-clicked and saved the eBay listing photos.

Unfortunately, this set appears to have saved as 800x600 Bitmap files, rather than JPEGS.









However, when I later realized what these extra stampings were, it made it better for zooming in on them.

Here's a crop from one of those Bitmaps, slightly zoomed and rotated through 90Â°:










Best I've managed to make out (by squinting hard at the original) :umnik2: is:

PROD. Z.F.

MANAUS ?? AM

IND. ?????

Plus there's the 'AM' (Amazonia Manaus ?) again on the periphery under the serial number.

In April 2010, when Paulo uploaded those couple of photos of his mint N.O.S. 7A38-7295 onto his forum,

TempusVivendi.br, I made contact with him, and we exchanged a couple of emails about the ZFM operation.

Here's an extract from his email:



> About this Seiko is very hard to find any information.
> 
> Due the Brazilian laws for import the Seiko built a plant in Manaus / Amazonia 'to make' watches. Omega did the same thing.
> 
> Well, nothing was made in Manaus, all the watches were imported in parts, case, movement and bracelet or strap and receive another reference.
> 
> Here they was assembled and was engraved ZFM on them. ZFM means Zona Franca de Manaus where the duties are free.
> 
> In 2000 the Seiko closed the plant in Brazil, but the watches now are made by another company the Technos da Amazonia.


I did reply to Paulo, asking for clarification of the exact stampings on his 7A38's case-back, but he wasn't forthcoming.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> Maybe you can gently coax the seller into putting all the right parts together to create a true and original specimen.


I doubt that, somehow Bruce. :thumbsdown:

Let's face it, the seller isn't being exactly straight-forward as it is ....

His auction description states 'Made in Japan', with no reference to it being a (rare*r*) Brazilian-built ZFM version.

Problem we've got is there's no (publicly available) documentation to check what a 7A38-7085 *should* comprise.

Note the third line of that partial quote from Paulo's email in my previous post.

Seiko obviously produced a new (or slightly modified) dial for the 7A38-7295, without 'JAPAN',

and also signified the difference by printing 722*S* R (instead of 722*L* R on the standard version) ....

But did they actually bother producing another different 'non-Japan' 709L(S?) dial for the 7A38-7085 variant ? :huh:

It seems odd that they'd 'kit' a watch with a double wave case-back, but not have the Sports 100 logo on the dial.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

So I thought I'd try a little experiment this morning. :naughty:

Unfortunately, the light was at best described as 'variable', so please excuse the slightly grainy Q&D photos. :blush:

Firstly, here's the better (almost mint) of my own two 7A38-7070's -

Completely 'as per original', and fitted with the correct 709L(XB13) dial.

Note the contrasting dark grey colour of the sub-dials, and that they're recessed (i.e. printed on the lower dial plate):










Now here's my 'second string' (wearer) 7A38-7070, but fitted with

a 722L dial out of one of my 'roundtuit' 7A38-7270 resto' projects.

I deliberately chose one with "cipher of aging on the fluorescent". :grin:

Note that the sub-dials on a 722L dial are flush with (or slightly proud of) the dial surface. :wink2:

Unfortunately, as I tapped gently, to help persuade the movement out of the case, the Seiko logo fell off the dial.









This is effectively the configuration of the 7A38-7085 currently offered on eBay by 'watches.br' (apart from JAPAN on the dial).










Thirdly, here's the same watch, now fitted with the dial out of one of my 7A38-7080's.

Again it's got JAPAN 7A38 709L printed at the bottom, but this is the 7A38 709L(XB23).

This one has black sub-dials, which again like the correct 709L(XB13) are 'recessed':










I'm wondering if this is what the ZFM Brazilian-built 7A38-*7085* is really supposed to look like. :lookaround:

The rational being ....

That if Seiko didn't use a -7080' style 709L dial, then why didn't they designate this ZFM model as a 7A38-70*7*5 ? :think:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

And apart from this ....



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> It seems odd that they'd 'kit' a watch with a double wave case-back, but not have the Sports 100 logo on the dial.


There's another reason why I think that (presumably) 722S dial in the eBay seller's 7A38-7085 is wrong for the watch.

I've come across this anomoly, myself, in the past, when constructing a few 7A38 'Frankens' (for fun). :hammer:

See this thread: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=57525 , and post # 12 onwards:

Whereas all 7A38 dial / movements are theoretically interchangeable ....

Some are more easily interchangeable between 7A38 watch cases than others.

And so, it turns out, is the case with the 722L dial and the 709L dials in a 7A38-7070 'Diver'.

Not so easy to see in this dark-ish photo, but the way the two upper dial plates are cut differs slightly.

If you look very carefully at where the dial fixing screws go, it becomes a little bit more more apparent.

On the 722L dial (left) the screws pulls down on the (countersunk) upper plate. On the 709L (right) only the lower plate.










The upshot of this, was that when I fitted the 722L dial into the 7A38-7070 case (2nd photo in previous post),

not only could I see daylight under the Tachymeter ring, particularly around the 400 and 500 marks but ....

by looking at a very shallow angle, I could actually see the date wheel spacer locating pin (between 8 and 9 minute markers).

Now, perhaps our Brazilian eBay seller has discovered that by slicing off the 4 extra stand-off pips (one shown below):










.... as I did (in that other thread), you can get the Tachy ring spacer to sit down flat. :smartass:

All of this of course depends on what Seiko Japan originally supplied to Manaus in the kits for these watches.

I doubt we'll ever be sure. At least, not until an un-molested ZFM 7A38-7085 turns up on eBay again, I guess.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

By the way, that's a 7A38-7080 case in the Q&D photo above.

It's exactly the same as a 7A38-7070 case - just all-over black chrome plated.

It's the one I'd removed the all black 709L(XB23) dial from for my third photo in post #51. :hammer:

PS - Hope you're following all this good stuff, Bruce. :grin:


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> By the way, that's a 7A38-7080 case in the Q&D photo above.
> 
> It's exactly the same as a 7A38-7070 case - just all-over black chrome plated.
> 
> It's the one I'd removed the all black 709L(XB23) dial from for my third photo in post #51. :hammer:
> 
> PS - Hope you're following all this good stuff, Bruce. :grin:


Your research on this particular model is fascinating and I must admit that I will have to reread the entire thread in an attempt to absorb all the information that you have provided. My concern was that my uninformed probing of a seller that I feel was being less than forthcoming may have caused him to begin swapping out parts of an otherwise correct and rare specimen. You have allayed those fears but in the future I now realize that such probing is best left to someone more knowledgeable. Not finding the 7085 designation in the Oceania database, I assumed, rightfully or wrongfully, that the 7085 was an export or offshore designation of the 7080 in a similar vein to the 7A28-7040/49. When questioned about the "base metal" inscription on the caseback and the possibility that the case was originally black, the seller responded with the following cryptic message: "Confirm in your catalog, 7A38-7080 (Black Case), 7A38-7085 (Case Acier)". Acier is French, not Spanish, for steel, and I am now left wondering out of what catalog or database did he retrieve that information.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> Your research on this particular model is fascinating ....


And sometimes flawed, it would seem, Bruce. 

So it's good to have 'a second pair of eyes', like yours, looking over my shoulder. :thumbsup:



7A28lvr said:


> .... my uninformed probing of a seller that I feel was being less than forthcoming may
> 
> have caused him to begin swapping out parts of an otherwise correct and rare specimen.


Au Contraire, Bruce.

I still hadn't got round to sending a message asking him what the numbers at the bottom of the dial were.

I had presumed it's a 722S dial out of a ZFM 7A38-7295, and I'm still fairly confident of that assumption.

Your enquiry about the tarnished lume on the 4 and 5 batons may have prompted the seller to swap out

the first dial for another better 722S dial, and to fit a yellow sweep second hand at the same time, but ....

This watch had already been severely messed with, well before you made your initial enquiry. :butcher:

And I'm not just referring to the cut-down 'aftermarket' bezel insert, and the fitting of a p/n B1075(S)

bracelet (off a 7A28-7040/-7049), instead of the later p/n B1241 that one might expect to find on a 7A38.



7A28lvr said:


> I now realize that such probing is best left to someone more knowledgeable.


Wrong !







I am human, I make mistakes, and I sometimes miss some *very* obvious things. :blush:



7A28lvr said:


> Not finding the (7A37085 designation in the Oceania database,


I'm pleased to read that you're using it, Bruce. Many don't bother.

It's a very valuable resource, particularly when trying to decifer Frankens.

Though you must be a little disappointed with all the 7A28 data that's missing. 



7A28lvr said:


> I assumed, rightfully or wrongfully, that the 7085 was an export or offshore designation of the 7080


That's exactly what it is - a ZFM plant offshore version of the 7A38-7080 (*not* the -7070 !)



7A28lvr said:


> .... in a similar vein to the 7A28-7040/49.


The exact meaning of a '9' on the end of a case model code was originally thought to signify US.

It's not as clear-cut as that, and plenty of 7A38-xxx9's turn up in Europe as well as in the States.

Then you've got other anomolies like the 7A38-702A and 7A38-702H which further muddy the waters.

But I'm now pretty certain that a case model ending in '5' signifies a ZFM production version.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> When questioned about the "base metal" inscription on the caseback and the possibility that the case was originally black ....


And with that particular question, Bruce, *You Sir* hit the nail dead centre on the head. :clap:

Because it *was originally Black* ! As the seller states in his description, multiple times:



> *Please check photos.*












Go back to post # 36 on the previous page, and you'll see that I missed it totally. :blush:



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> What convinces me of this are the very small badly worn additional stampings you can see on the photo of the case-back:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Between the 'Double Wave' logo and METAL ST. STEEL. Note also 'AM' near the serial number. :blind:


Ironic how I used the 'blind' :blind: smiley in the wrong context, in that earlier post, eh ? 

I was too busy straining to look at the ZFM stampings, and completely missed 'Base Metal'. :duh:

I've just got both my 7A38-7070's and 7A38-7080's out of their boxes again, and ....

The case-backs on the 'Steel' 7A38-7070's are stamped: WATER RESIST ST. STEEL, and

the case-backs on the Black-Chrome plated 7A38-7080's are stamped: BASE METAL ST. STEEL BACK

.... just like this ZFM 7A38-7085, in fact. Funny coincidence (or not) that, eh ? :grin:



7A28lvr said:


> the seller responded with the following cryptic message:
> 
> "Confirm in your catalog, 7A38-7080 (Black Case), 7A38-7085 (Case Acier)".


Smoke and Mirrors, Bruce. Total ooh: in fact.

This watch may have the case-back off a ZFM 7A38-7085 ....

but IMO (revised) it is a *complete and utter Franken*. :hammer:

I retract what I wrote previously in error.









I now believe that a ZFM Brazilian-built 7A38-7085 should (or would have looked) ....

just like this one, but without 'JAPAN' to the left of '7A38' at the botton of the dial:

 - i.e. *Black Chrome plated all over* !



7A28lvr said:


> Acier is French, not Spanish, for steel,


Oui, bien sÃ»r :artist: but presuming the seller is Brazilian, then his first language would

be Portuguese, rather than Spanish. The Portuguese for steel is aÃ§o, for what it's worth.



7A28lvr said:


> ....and I am now left wondering out of what catalog or database did he retrieve that information.


Same place. :bull*******:

Phew - ended up having to split this reply into two parts, due to multiple partial quotes ! :sweatdrop:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

Just to show you how easy it is to call these things wrongly, Bruce ....

If you've got a minute, flick back to the top of the previous page and post # 31.

When I first saw that particular 'Franken Diver', my initial reaction was that it was:

'A 7A38-7070 fitted with the dial and case-back from a 7A38-706A, and an unknown bracelet'.

Later closer examination of the eBay seller's photos proved otherwise. :duh:

We had two or three '7A38 Franken' threads on the go, at that time.

The further discussions on that watch can be found here: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53256 - post #12 onwards.

It actually turned out to be a 7A*28*-7040/-7049 case fitted with a 7A38-706A dial and case-back ! :shocking:


----------



## AlexC1981

Oh my God! We've got two of them now..... :shocking:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

AlexC1981 said:


> Oh my God! We've got two of them now..... :shocking:


*My name is Legion - for we are many* (Seiko 7Axx enthusiasts, that is). :tongue2:


----------



## 7A28lvr

AlexC1981 said:


> Oh my God! We've got two of them now..... :shocking:


There can only ever be one SEIKO7A38Fan.


----------



## 7A28lvr

7A28lvr said:


> AlexC1981 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my God! We've got two of them now..... :shocking:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There can only ever be one SEIKO7A38Fan.
Click to expand...

Besides, I might have the motive, I might even have the opportunity, but I will never have the means.


----------



## bry1975

Does the Brazilian RARE 7A38 watch have black boot dubbing for its stealthiness!? :cool2:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

bry1975 said:


> Does the Brazilian RARE 7A38 watch have black boot dubbing for its stealthiness!? :cool2:


Well, in the 'real world', with that 'Base Metal' case-back stamping, it probably should have. 

The Brazilian eBay seller does describe it as a 'MILITARY RARITY' after all. :comando:

But like all such 'stealth watches', it's cloaking has all but disappeared. :assassin:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Another unusual 'rare' variant of the much-loved 7A38-70xx 'Diver' surfaced on eBay in *Brazil* overnight.
> 
> Except I think this one is quite possibly genuine (if not 100% original).  Never seen one before. :shocking:
> 
> Check out eBay item # 250822095718, if you haven't already seen it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *WATCH SEIKO VINTAGE MILITARY CHRONOGRAPH (7A38) RARITY*
Click to expand...




SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> This watch may have the case-back off a ZFM 7A38-7085 .... but IMO (revised) it is a *complete and utter Franken*. :hammer:


That eBay auction for the 7A38-7085 Franken ended about half an hour ago: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=250822095718&si=SH3ZuYhAM7aZ8DeNTgQukupLQ5w%253D&viewitem=&sspagenam

Thankfully, nobody suffered a rush of blood to the bidding finger. :sweatdrop:

Hardly surprising, though, with that opening bid price of *$319.90*.


----------



## mollydog

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another unusual 'rare' variant of the much-loved 7A38-70xx 'Diver' surfaced on eBay in *Brazil* overnight.
> 
> Except I think this one is quite possibly genuine (if not 100% original).  Never seen one before. :shocking:
> 
> Check out eBay item # 250822095718, if you haven't already seen it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *WATCH SEIKO VINTAGE MILITARY CHRONOGRAPH (7A38) RARITY*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> This watch may have the case-back off a ZFM 7A38-7085 .... but IMO (revised) it is a *complete and utter Franken*. :hammer:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That eBay auction for the 7A38-7085 Franken ended about half an hour ago: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=250822095718&si=SH3ZuYhAM7aZ8DeNTgQukupLQ5w%253D&viewitem=&sspagenam
> 
> Thankfully, nobody suffered a rush of blood to the bidding finger. :sweatdrop:
> 
> Hardly surprising, though, with that opening bid price of *$319.90*.
Click to expand...


----------



## mollydog

Thank you SEIKO7A38Fan This topic has arrived just at the right time for me. Im looking to buy what I now know is the 7070. Ive noticed the 7a38s youâ€™ve mentioned and thought they didnâ€™t look quite right ( mainly the chrono bezels ) or were a little toooo used. The 7070 seems to be one of those iconic designs you never tier of; When a company gets it right it stays right. As in roxxx sub!

Im now viewing ebay through a 20x loop.

THANKS AGAIN MOLLYDOG


----------



## SEIKO7A38

mollydog said:


> I'm looking to buy what I now know is the (7A37070.
> 
> The (7A37070 seems to be one of those iconic designs you never tire of ....


Personally, I wouldn't describe the 7A38-7070 as an iconic design. :no:

This may sound a little strange coming from a dyed-in the wool 7A38 man ....

But if you're looking for an 'iconic' vintage quartz chrono' diver - I'd plump for the 7A28-7040/-7049 instead. :dontgetit:

Check out the photos of a really mint example further down this page: http://www.ninanet.net/watches/others13/Mediums/mseiko7a28.html

In some ways, I'm a little ambivalent about the looks of the 7A38-7070 - particularly the dark grey sub-dials.

From an aesthetic viewpoint, the 7A28-7040/-7049 is, IMHO, a cleaner design than the 7A38-7070.

The sub-dials are black on black, and with those white-painted hands, the dial looks generally sharper.

O.K., it may not have the Day / Date window.

Although they share the same bezel insert, the 7A28's bezel is overall slightly smaller - only 39.5mm Ã˜,

compared to 40.5mm Ã˜, so it doesn't overlap the width of the watch-case - as it does slightly on a 7A38-7070.

The way the 7A28's case slopes down to form the enclosed spring-bar box is nicer, too.

Also, the 7A28's B1075 bracelet tapers to meet the case more gently than the 7A38's B1241 bracelet does.

Besides, you're more likely to find a 7A28-7040/-7049 than the much scarcer 7A38-7070. I won't say rare.









I bought the last 7A38-7070 to come up on eBay in UK, for a good price: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260763023971#ht_850wt_934

I already had a mint-ish example, but it had suffered water ingress, and so I needed a better dial / hands / movement.

Those parts, since removed from the recent eBay 7A38-7070 above are now fitted into this one:










The remaining case and bracelet, which are also in very good condition, will be converted into a 7A38-707x Franken ....

Probably something looking very similar to this earlier experiment (using an all-black 709L dial out of a 7A38-7080):










.... but possibly fitted with the smaller diameter 7A28 bezel (if it will fit the 7A38's bezel flange) :hammer:

.... and probably a set of the white-painted hands as used on the 7A28-7040/-7049 / 7A38-7029, etc.

For me, personally, that will then become the 'iconic' 7A38 (albeit 'franken') diver. h34r:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Besides, you're more likely to find a 7A28-7040/-7049 than the much scarcer 7A38-7070.


I forgot to mention that the 7A28-7040 (apart from being easier to find on eBay than a 7A38-7070)

.... is also very abundant on Yahoo Japan Auctions - if you fancy taking a 'walk on the wild side' :fear:

There are currently FOUR 7A28-7040's on there: http://auctions.search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=7A28&auccat=&aq=-1&oq=&ei=UTF-8&tab_ex=commerce&slider=0

.... in varying condition, but only one appears to be on the correct original bracelet (with 'Speedmaster' clasp).

The JDM version of the 7A28-7040 also differs slightly from the US / Europe version.

It had a unique sales product code: SAY028, as opposed to SPR013J for 'export only'.

Check any of the listing photos on those Yahoo Japan auctions, such as this one ....










and note the different style CHRONOGRAPH dial printing instead of the usual Chronograph italic script ....

.... and also the lack of 'SPORTS 100' on the dial. Now where have we seen that before, recently, I wonder. :umnik2:


----------



## mollydog

Im probably guilty as charged in the use of the word Iconic, so often used especially by me after a newly found watch im interested in. After a good nights sleep and a day to ponder, i now have a change of heart, not due to the points you mention, as i like all the tool 7a38s, But a fresh look through my ebay saved listing . The reason I stand down from my original statement is due to the bezel insert which looks too much like just another subâ€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™

After a look through ebay again, i find myself drawn to the 7020 without the rotary bezel which seems to be more of an original design and one I donâ€™t have. I also unlike yourself prefer the grey dial! and or sub dials. I totally agree regarding the white hands of your 7a38 yet to be!

Whims; - I now believe this one to be iconicâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦.there I go againâ€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™â€™


----------



## SEIKO7A38

mollydog said:


> .... I find myself drawn to the (7A37020 without the rotary bezel which seems to be more of an original design and one I donâ€™t have.


Also more often seen (particularly on eBay in the States) as the virtually identical 7A38-7029.

Relatively common in terms of 7A38's 'rarity stakes', but still sought after by many collectors.

I'd personally avoid that one from Filipino seller 'clm002' though. :thumbsdown:

The case, bezel and bracelet have all been badly sanded, and the underside over-polished. :butcher:

I would say shaved or re-brushed in normal circumstances, but ....



mollydog said:


> I also unlike yourself prefer the grey dial! and or sub dials. I totally agree regarding the white hands of your 7a38 yet to be!


If you've already seen my previous (700L-dialled) 7A38-7029 Franken .... Wait till you see the next one. :hammer: :grin:


----------



## mollydog

Ive noticed the re- furb job on the case its quite harsh, im able to do a re finish if I didnâ€™t like it. I think their would be enough meat left on the case back to go again and still keep the motif etc. Bracelet is not as nice as the 7070 though. If you donâ€™t mind me asking, are there any other reasons you wouldnâ€™t buy this particular one.

I hadnâ€™t noticed your 700l dial one, looks superbâ€™ I really like this combination.

Problem is I have gained a little experience from you, but I wouldnâ€™t know if a mongrel 7a38 ran me over yet !


----------



## SEIKO7A38

mollydog said:


> If you donâ€™t mind me asking, are there any other reasons you wouldnâ€™t buy this particular one?


Because I've got three already :blush: (besides the 700L-dialled Franken, with another Franken in the pipeline). :grin:



mollydog said:


> I've noticed the re- furb job on the case its quite harsh, im able to do a re finish if I didnâ€™t like it.
> 
> I think there would be enough meat left on the case back to go again and still keep the motif etc.


Ask yourself.

If you think you're capable of re-furbing one of these, and the 7A38-7020/-7029 case and bracelet aren't that easy ....

Why consider re-doing someone else's botched refurb' job - wait for a better unmolested example to come along.











mollydog said:


> Problem is I have gained a little experience from you, but I wouldnâ€™t know if a mongrel 7a38 ran me over yet !


I regularly flag up most blatant mis-represented 7A38 Frankens in this other thread: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53526


----------



## mollydog

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> mollydog said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you donâ€™t mind me asking, are there any other reasons you wouldnâ€™t buy this particular one?
> 
> 
> 
> Because I've got three already :blush: (besides the 700L-dialled Franken, with another Franken in the pipeline). :grin:
> 
> 
> 
> mollydog said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed the re- furb job on the case its quite harsh, im able to do a re finish if I didnâ€™t like it.
> 
> I think there would be enough meat left on the case back to go again and still keep the motif etc.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Ask yourself.
> 
> If you think you're capable of re-furbing one of these, and the 7A38-7020/-7029 case and bracelet aren't that easy ....
> 
> Why consider re-doing someone else's botched refurb' job - wait for a better unmolested example to come along.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mollydog said:
> 
> 
> 
> Problem is I have gained a little experience from you, but I wouldnâ€™t know if a mongrel 7a38 ran me over yet !
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I regularly flag up most blatant mis-represented 7A38 Frankens in this other thread: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=53526
Click to expand...

OK, like many others i Cant thank you enough for the hard work your putting in


----------



## 7A28lvr

Our friend in Sao Paulo is at it again and has produced eBay item #260791799950. While at first glance it appears to be a legitimate example, a closer inspection reveals the mysterious lack of the Japan marking on the lower dial. This apparent franken comes complete with the high wishing price of only $449.99 USD and a very liberal use of the term "soft wear marks".


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> Our friend in Sao Paulo is at it again and has produced eBay item #260791799950.


You got the jump on me there, Bruce (time difference), but it's great to have you on the case. :thumbsup:

He has indeed been 'at it' again, and has really shot himself in the foot this time.









Not just by listing this new one:



> *WATCH SEIKO VINTAGE BLACK MILITARY CHRONO 7A38 RARE 80s*












.... but by re-listing his earlier 7A38-7085 Franken at the same time: item # 260790987681 - as a 'Buy-it-Now for $294.99.

They make for an interesting comparison. :wink2:



7A28lvr said:


> While at first glance it appears to be a legitimate example, a closer inspection reveals the mysterious lack of the Japan marking on the lower dial.


Nothing mysterious (to my mind) about the lack of 'Japan', on that particular dial, Bruce ....

IF it were fitted in a 7A38-7085 case, rather than the -7080 which he is trying to sell it as.

Indeed, that dial is EXACTLY what I would expect to find in a ZFM produced 7A38-7085.

Obviously can't make out the small lettering at the bottom of the dial, but I'd expect it to read:

'7A38 709*S* T' - compared to 'JAPAN 7A38 709L T', which you'd find on a 'normal' 7A38-7080.

Now, if he were to take the -7085 ZFM case-back off the Franken, and fit it to this watch :hammer: ....

(which might even been where it came from in the first place) this watch would almost be 'correct'. 



7A28lvr said:


> This apparent franken comes complete with the high wishing price of only $449.99 USD ....


Yes, that's sheer lunacy. :angry: This Brazilian seller is one greedy dishonest S.O.B. :thumbsdown:



7A28lvr said:


> .... and a very liberal use of the term "soft wear marks".


Yes. Had to chuckle at that myself. :rofl2:

I've got a second 7A38-7080 with some light rubbing wear which I'm thinking about 'parting out'.

The coating on that one is in far better condition than his.

Perhaps I ought to build it into a Franken and stick it on eBay with a $500 price tag. :lookaround:

One thing I did notice, is that he's airbrushed the clasp:










Looking at the amount of rubbing wear on the bracelet, the coating on this clasp closer should be 'threadbare'.

His little artistic touch :artist: of polishing the raised SEIKO SQ logo is completely wrong though.









You might see this on the clasp of a 7A38-6100 or the black chrome 7A38-7100, but their raised lettering is *gold*.

The clasp on the 7A38-7080 (and presumably the ZFM 7A38-7085) should be black chrome all over, including the logo.

But it gets better .... just wait till you turn the page. :read:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

It had been bugging me (no end) that I had no photos of a genuine unmolested ZFM 7A38-7085 on file. :angry:

Since I started collecting 7A38's, at the end of 2008, I'd religiously right-clicked and saved every photo I'd come across.

Plenty of photos of 'normal' 7A38-7080's, in various states, but none whatsoever of the ZFM-built 7A38-7085 version. 

Obviously these things (as with the ZFM 7A38-7295) are pretty rare - well rare outside of Brazil, at least.

I was sure I'd googled it before, but somehow I'd managed to miss a thread on the old SCWF, dating from March 2009. :blush:

See: http://www.network54.com/Forum/78440/thread/1238452999/1239119050/

It's Hung Pham's ('Time2Fly') second post in reply to John Gauch's question that caught my eye. 



> 3. I looked through hundreds of 7Axx photos in my collection.
> 
> The lowest serial number that I saw was 2N0079, and highest was 983838 (a *7A38-7085*).


Yesterday, I emailed Hung, asking if he still had those photos on file. :notworthy:

He replied in a matter of minutes:



> Attached are two photos that I have of a 7A38-7085.
> 
> I grabbed those photos in April 2006, probably from eBay.
> 
> That watch appeared to have a plastic/rubber aftermarket strap.





















Thank you Hung !!! :thumbup:

So, as anticipated, and discussed ad nauseum, it's black chrome plated, with a 709(S) dial with 'Sports 100' and no 'Japan'.

Pity about the lack of original bracelet, but I think it's safe to assume it would have been a B1242 - same as a 7A38-7080.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

So, now we've got sight of some photos of 'the genuine article', getting back to that 7A38-7085 Franken:



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Another unusual 'rare' variant of the much-loved 7A38-70xx 'Diver' surfaced on eBay in *Brazil* overnight.
> 
> Except I think this one is quite possibly genuine (if not 100% original).  Never seen one before. :shocking:
> 
> Check out eBay item # 250822095718 (now re-listed as item # 260790987681), if you haven't already seen it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *WATCH SEIKO VINTAGE MILITARY CHRONOGRAPH (7A38) RARITY*
Click to expand...

This is what I reckon it actually comprises:

The case and bezel are either the original -7085 parts stripped of their black coating (lightly bead-blasted ?)

or the case and bezel may be from a stainless 7A38-7070. The bezel insert is a cut-down aftermarket. :butcher:

The bracelet is a B1075 off a 7A28-7040/-7049. It should be a B1242 (black-coated version of the B1241).

The dial is a ZFM Seiko 722S dial, the same as used in a ZFM 7A38-7295, fitted with a yellow sweep hand.

.... and I quote:



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> This watch may have the case-back off a ZFM 7A38-7085 .... but IMO (revised) it is a *complete and utter Franken*. :hammer:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> But it gets better .... just wait till you turn the page. :read:


Bruce. Going back to a couple of your quotes on page 4:



7A28lvr said:


> That Brazilian is nothing if not a resourceful and responsive seller.





7A28lvr said:


> When questioned about the "base metal" inscription on the caseback and the possibility that the case was originally black, the
> 
> seller responded with the following cryptic message: "Confirm in your catalog, 7A38-7080 (Black Case), 7A38-7085 (Case Acier)".


I did something a bit naughty. :naughty:

After he re-listed his 7A38-7085 Franken as a Buy-it-Now, I sent 'Watches.br' an eBay message.

It was definately meant as a wind-up.









Basically I asked him how he had the gall to ask such a ridiculously high price for this Franken. :grin:

He replied this morning:



> Hello !!!!!
> 
> Who are you?
> 
> You know nothing about Seiko, to make this accusation!
> 
> 7A38-7085: CASE ACIER - Search...
> 
> 7A38-7080: BLACK CASE (PVD) - Search...
> 
> ---> If you want to pay little, try and buy in another sales site!
> 
> 7A38-7080: Wait, I'll make the announcement because...
> 
> Tell me the link to confirm your observation?
> 
> Do you believe in GOD? Ask God for wisdom and understanding, and have more education with others...
> 
> I am an honest person, be sure!
> 
> Kind regards.
> 
> WATCHES.BR










Nearly forgot the smiley :bull*******:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

Just noticed a small 'typo' in my last post (# 75) on the previous page:



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> You might see this on the clasp of a 7A38-6100 or the black chrome 7A38-7100, but their raised lettering is *gold*.


That should of course read 7A38-*6010* - as seen in recent eBay listing # 130522660281:


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> But it gets better .... just wait till you turn the page. :read:
> 
> 
> 
> Bruce. Going back to a couple of your quotes on page 4:
> 
> 
> 
> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> That Brazilian is nothing if not a resourceful and responsive seller.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> When questioned about the "base metal" inscription on the caseback and the possibility that the case was originally black, the
> 
> seller responded with the following cryptic message: "Confirm in your catalog, 7A38-7080 (Black Case), 7A38-7085 (Case Acier)".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did something a bit naughty. :naughty:
> 
> After he re-listed his 7A38-7085 Franken as a Buy-it-Now, I sent 'Watches.br' an eBay message.
> 
> It was definately meant as a wind-up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Basically I asked him how he had the gall to ask such a ridiculously high price for this Franken. :grin:
> 
> He replied this morning:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello !!!!!
> 
> Who are you?
> 
> You know nothing about Seiko, to make this accusation!
> 
> 7A38-7085: CASE ACIER - Search...
> 
> 7A38-7080: BLACK CASE (PVD) - Search...
> 
> ---> If you want to pay little, try and buy in another sales site!
> 
> 7A38-7080: Wait, I'll make the announcement because...
> 
> Tell me the link to confirm your observation?
> 
> Do you believe in GOD? Ask God for wisdom and understanding, and have more education with others...
> 
> I am an honest person, be sure!
> 
> Kind regards.
> 
> WATCHES.BR
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nearly forgot the smiley :bull*******:
Click to expand...

You certainly struck a raw nerve with WATCHES.BR(Build a 7A38 while you wait) although, in his defence, after calling you a liar and questioning your belief in God, he did end his message with "kind regards". What is lost on this seller is the fact that a true and correct example of the rarer ZFM produced 7A38 is likely more valuable to knowledgeable collectors than the more common Japanese manufactured version and certainly more valuable than the frankenmonsters he is attempting to create.


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, you're more likely to find a 7A28-7040/-7049 than the much scarcer 7A38-7070.
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to mention that the 7A28-7040 (apart from being easier to find on eBay than a 7A38-7070)
> 
> .... is also very abundant on Yahoo Japan Auctions - if you fancy taking a 'walk on the wild side' :fear:
> 
> There are currently FOUR 7A28-7040's on there: http://auctions.search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=7A28&auccat=&aq=-1&oq=&ei=UTF-8&tab_ex=commerce&slider=0
> 
> .... in varying condition, but only one appears to be on the correct original bracelet (with 'Speedmaster' clasp).
> 
> The JDM version of the 7A28-7040 also differs slightly from the US / Europe version.
> 
> It had a unique sales product code: SAY028, as opposed to SPR013J for 'export only'.
> 
> Check any of the listing photos on those Yahoo Japan auctions, such as this one ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and note the different style CHRONOGRAPH dial printing instead of the usual Chronograph italic script ....
> 
> .... and also the lack of 'SPORTS 100' on the dial. Now where have we seen that before, recently, I wonder. :umnik2:
Click to expand...

Speaking of the 7A28-7040, one just came and went so quickly on eBay (completed item #330566946446) that I barely had a chance to look it over. My initial reaction is that $370.00 USD shipped for a less than pristine example (notice the condition of the S in Seiko on the dial, for example) is a bit pricey. SEIKO7A38Fan, your opinion on this completed auction would be much appreciated.


----------



## 7A28lvr

7A28lvr said:


> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Besides, you're more likely to find a 7A28-7040/-7049 than the much scarcer 7A38-7070.
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot to mention that the 7A28-7040 (apart from being easier to find on eBay than a 7A38-7070)
> 
> .... is also very abundant on Yahoo Japan Auctions - if you fancy taking a 'walk on the wild side' :fear:
> 
> There are currently FOUR 7A28-7040's on there: http://auctions.search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=7A28&auccat=&aq=-1&oq=&ei=UTF-8&tab_ex=commerce&slider=0
> 
> .... in varying condition, but only one appears to be on the correct original bracelet (with 'Speedmaster' clasp).
> 
> The JDM version of the 7A28-7040 also differs slightly from the US / Europe version.
> 
> It had a unique sales product code: SAY028, as opposed to SPR013J for 'export only'.
> 
> Check any of the listing photos on those Yahoo Japan auctions, such as this one ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and note the different style CHRONOGRAPH dial printing instead of the usual Chronograph italic script ....
> 
> .... and also the lack of 'SPORTS 100' on the dial. Now where have we seen that before, recently, I wonder. :umnik2:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Speaking of the 7A28-7040, one just came and went so quickly on eBay (completed item #330566946446) that I barely had a chance to look it over. My initial reaction is that $370.00 USD shipped for a less than pristine example (notice the condition of the S in Seiko on the dial, for example) is a bit pricey. SEIKO7A38Fan, your opinion on the price vs. condition of this completed item would be much appreciated.
Click to expand...


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> Speaking of the 7A28-7040, one just came and went so quickly on eBay (completed item #330566946446)


Think you might have given me a bad auction # there, Bruce. Try copying and pasting it. :rofl:



7A28lvr said:


> My initial reaction is that $370.00 USD shipped for a less than pristine example (notice the condition of the S in Seiko on the dial, for example) is a bit pricey. SEIKO7A38Fan, your opinion on the price vs. condition of this completed item would be much appreciated.


Bruce, I'm not really very good at prices. People pay what they want to pay. That's life / eBay.

But I will admit I was actually bidding on this 7A28-7049 a few weeks ago. :blush:

Bidding had got to over $100, when I got the bid cancellation notice. Check out the *RED TEXT* at the bottom.

I thought $239.99 was a bit steep, and I wouldn't have gone that far anyway. But that one was very nice. :wub:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> You certainly struck a raw nerve with WATCHES.BR (Build a 7A38 while you wait)


That was exactly my intention. :naughty:



7A28lvr said:


> ..... after calling you a liar and questioning your belief in God ....


And do you think I'm going to let him get off the hook with that reply ? :huh: NO WAY.









I already replied to his eBay message. I took great delight in replying to this part:



> ---> If you want to pay little, try and buy in another sales site!
> 
> 7A38-7080: Wait, I'll make the announcement because...
> 
> Tell me the link to confirm your observation?


In answer, I sent him a link to the recent eBay auction for a 7A38-7080 which I had

won, in far better condition than his, and for less than half his Buy-it-Now price. 

And to really make his day great, I sent him a link to this page of this thread. :black eye:

I'm waiting for his reply. 



7A28lvr said:


> What is lost on this seller is the fact that a true and correct example of the rarer ZFM produced 7A38 is likely more valuable to knowledgeable collectors than the more common Japanese manufactured version and certainly more valuable than the frankenmonsters he is attempting to create.


So true. :thumbsup:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> Speaking of the 7A28-7040, one just came and went so quickly on eBay (completed item #3305*6694*6446) that I barely had a chance to look it over. My initial reaction is that $370.00 USD shipped for a less than pristine example (notice the condition of the S in Seiko on the dial, for example) is a bit pricey. SEIKO7A38Fan, your opinion on this completed auction would be much appreciated.


Gotcher now, Bruce. You meant 3305*6994*6446, right ?









Well, it obviously looks like it needed a good clean. :yucky: But otherwise quite tidy. A pristine bezel insert always helps. 

Sold for $335 plus shipping from Hong Kong. Way too much if you ask me, but then someone wanted one badly. :man_in_love:

I'm always wary now, if I see any tarnishing on a Seiko logo on a 7A38 dial (so the same could apply to a 7A28). :fear:

Often it's a sign that there has been moisture ingress at some point, or leaking battery / fumes from under the dial. :thumbsdown:


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of the 7A28-7040, one just came and went so quickly on eBay (completed item #330566946446)
> 
> 
> 
> Think you might have given me a bad auction # there, Bruce. Try copying and pasting it. :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> My initial reaction is that $370.00 USD shipped for a less than pristine example (notice the condition of the S in Seiko on the dial, for example) is a bit pricey. SEIKO7A38Fan, your opinion on the price vs. condition of this completed item would be much appreciated.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bruce, I'm not really very good at prices. People pay what they want to pay. That's life / eBay.
> 
> But I will admit I was actually bidding on this 7A28-7049 a few weeks ago. :blush:
> 
> Bidding had got to over $100, when I got the bid cancellation notice. Check out the *RED TEXT* at the bottom.
> 
> I thought $239.99 was a bit steep, and I wouldn't have gone that far anyway. But that one was very nice. :wub:
Click to expand...

That seller, yorkiegizmo1, is, bar none, the most unpredictable and erratic seller that I have ever dealt with on eBay. He initially listed the item with a more reasonable buy it now price of $179.00 but, by the time I saw the item, it had converted to auction only. Having solicited bids for two days, he inexplicably closed the auction only to relist the item five days later as auction only but with a vague reference to "buy now" at $239.00. After soliciting bids for approx. 12 hours and allowing the item to attain a bid price of $260.00 he again inexplicably closed the auction. That sad chapter in my quest to obtain a near mint 7A28-7040/7049 (a model very near and dear to my heart as it was my first real watch)ended with me reporting him to eBay for circumvention of eBay fees by soliciting outside offers through his vague reference to "buy now" in the listing. Please forgive my rant.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

By the way, in case you're wondering why I'd like to buy a 7A28-7040/-7049 :huh: ....

It's not because I'm planning to branch out into collecting 7A28's. Not at all. :no:

I prefer the watch-case and bezel of the 7A28-704x to the equivalent stainless 7A38-7070.

I'd like to build myself a Franken very similar to the one at the top of page 3 of this thread. :hammer:

But using an all-black 709L dial out of a 7A38-7080. If one watch botcher do it, so can I. :butcher:

In nearly bought this one on advertised on SCWF earlier this week: http://www.thewatchsite.com/index.php/topic,19783.msg109120.html#msg109120

Saw the advert about an hour after it went up. Had plenty of time to email the seller, but dithered and dallied.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> .... ended with me reporting him to eBay for circumvention of eBay fees by soliciting outside offers through his vague reference to "buy now" in the listing. Please forgive my rant.


No need to ask forgiveness, Bruce. I was as p*ssed as you were  - and reported him to eBay exactly the same. :wink2:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> I already replied to his eBay message .... I'm waiting for his reply.


I just got one. :shocking: He, though I think it might actually be a 'she' (signed 'Marta'), addressed me as 'Hi Nemesis'. :dontgetit:

Possibly they didn't understand my reply to the question 'who are you?', to which I replied: 'I am your Nemesis'. :rofl:

Of more anon. In the meantime ....

Look out for possible further amendments to the descriptions of those two 'watches.br' 7A38-708x eBay auctions. :hypocrite:


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of the 7A28-7040, one just came and went so quickly on eBay (completed item #3305*6694*6446) that I barely had a chance to look it over. My initial reaction is that $370.00 USD shipped for a less than pristine example (notice the condition of the S in Seiko on the dial, for example) is a bit pricey. SEIKO7A38Fan, your opinion on this completed auction would be much appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> Gotcher now, Bruce. You meant 3305*6994*6446, right ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it obviously looks like it needed a good clean. :yucky: But otherwise quite tidy. A pristine bezel insert always helps.
> 
> Sold for $335 plus shipping from Hong Kong. Way too much if you ask me, but then someone wanted one badly. :man_in_love:
> 
> I'm always wary now, if I see any tarnishing on a Seiko logo on a 7A38 dial (so the same could apply to a 7A28). :fear:
> 
> Often it's a sign that there has been moisture ingress at some point, or leaking battery / fumes from under the dial. :thumbsdown:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the speedy (no pun intended) reply and I am sorry for the item # misprint. I think what I am really asking you is this. Is it unreasonable to assume that one would eventually be able to obtain a near mint or mint 7A28-7040/7049 (my first "real" watch) for approx. $300.00 USD or less, or are my assumptions all wrong?


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> .... ended with me reporting him to eBay for circumvention of eBay fees by soliciting outside offers through his vague reference to "buy now" in the listing. Please forgive my rant.
> 
> 
> 
> No need to ask forgiveness, Bruce. I was as p*ssed as you were  - and reported him to eBay exactly the same. :wink2:
Click to expand...

He is now keeping an extremely low profile on eBay.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> Is it unreasonable to assume that one would eventually be able to obtain a near mint or mint 7A28-7040/7049 (my first "real" watch) for approx. $300.00 USD or less, or are my assumptions all wrong?


No, you should be able to find one very easily. Just be patient, and broaden your search criteria - Think laterally.









At the risk of allowing this thread to keep going fftopic2: (the subject is 7A*3*8-xxxx divers not 7A28's h34r: ) ....

I'll ask the other Paul(66) to show you his example.


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it unreasonable to assume that one would eventually be able to obtain a near mint or mint 7A28-7040/7049 (my first "real" watch) for approx. $300.00 USD or less, or are my assumptions all wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> No, you should be able to find one very easily. Just be patient, and broaden your search criteria - Think laterally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the risk of allowing this thread to keep going fftopic2: (the subject is 7A*3*8-xxxx divers not 7A28's h34r: ) ....
> 
> I'll ask the other Paul(66) to show you his example.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I am not experienced enough to venture into the world of one on one transactions in other forums and, being inexperienced, feel safer under the blanket of protection provided by eBay. It is truly a waiting game and patience is a virtue.


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> It had been bugging me (no end) that I had no photos of a genuine unmolested ZFM 7A38-7085 on file. :angry:
> 
> Since I started collecting 7A38's, at the end of 2008, I'd religiously right-clicked and saved every photo I'd come across.
> 
> Plenty of photos of 'normal' 7A38-7080's, in various states, but none whatsoever of the ZFM-built 7A38-7085 version.
> 
> Obviously these things (as with the ZFM 7A38-7295) are pretty rare - well rare outside of Brazil, at least.
> 
> I was sure I'd googled it before, but somehow I'd managed to miss a thread on the old SCWF, dating from March 2009. :blush:
> 
> See: http://www.network54.com/Forum/78440/thread/1238452999/1239119050/
> 
> It's Hung Pham's ('Time2Fly') second post in reply to John Gauch's question that caught my eye.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3. I looked through hundreds of 7Axx photos in my collection.
> 
> The lowest serial number that I saw was 2N0079, and highest was 983838 (a *7A38-7085*).
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday, I emailed Hung, asking if he still had those photos on file. :notworthy:
> 
> He replied in a matter of minutes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Attached are two photos that I have of a 7A38-7085.
> 
> I grabbed those photos in April 2006, probably from eBay.
> 
> That watch appeared to have a plastic/rubber aftermarket strap.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you Hung !!! :thumbup:
> 
> So, as anticipated, and discussed ad nauseum, it's black chrome plated, with a 709(S) dial with 'Sports 100' and no 'Japan'.
> 
> Pity about the lack of original bracelet, but I think it's safe to assume it would have been a B1242 - same as a 7A38-7080.
Click to expand...

Any thoughts on the addition of the 10bar inscription on the ZFM casebacks?


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> Any thoughts on the addition of the 10bar inscription on the ZFM casebacks?


You mean say comparing it to a 'normal' Europe/USA 7A38-7080 (case-back) which doesn't have that ?

To be honest, I can't say that I've given it much thought, Bruce. :dontgetit:

But then checking / comparing case-back inscriptions hasn't been a strong point of mine lately, has it ? :blush:










Both have the 'Double Wave' logo (which signifies 10 Bar anyway), and 'Water Resistant'.

So possibly a bit of an overkill, by adding '10 BAR' on the ZFM version.

Perhaps the Seiko manufacturing design engineer just wanted to balance out the larger gap created by

only having 'AM' (Amazonia Manaus) stamped at the bottom of the case-back, instead of 'JAPAN S'. 

Personally, I'm still more interested in discovering the complete wording of the full Z.F.M. inscription.

Perhaps I'll have another try, asking Paulo (TempusVivendi.br) to take a photo of his ZFM 7A38-7295's case-back.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I already replied to his eBay message .... I'm waiting for his reply.
> 
> 
> 
> I just got one. :shocking: He, though I think it might actually be a 'she' (signed 'Marta'), addressed me as 'Hi Nemesis'. :dontgetit:
> 
> Possibly they didn't understand my reply to the question 'who are you?', to which I replied: 'I am your Nemesis'. :rofl:
> 
> Of more anon. In the meantime ....
> 
> Look out for possible further amendments to the descriptions of those two 'watches.br' 7A38-708x eBay auctions. :hypocrite:
Click to expand...

I won't copy and paste the entire contents of Marta's long eBay message - suffice to say it was humbling and apologetic. :notworthy:

The important (partial) admission as far as watches.br's 7A38-70xx Franken (item # 260790987681) is concerned went as follows:



> I saw that dial announced my watch is not original, so I admit that my watch is not entirely original...
> 
> I will mention this detail in describing the product advertised on ebay...


'.... *not entirely* original'. Minor understatement.  :rofl: :rofl2:

Anyway, looks like they amended parts of the item description yesterday evening. Unfortunately they didn't get this quite right:



> *DIAL: Excellent condition (Not original - Model 7A38-7225), black dial.*


It should read either 7A38 722*S* (per the dial markings) or 7A38-7295 (the ZFM watch it came out of), Can't win 'em all. 

They also appear, unless I missed it before (pretty sure it said Japan before) to have changed this part of the description too:



> *BOTTOM: Original, .... signed: SEIKO (7A38-7085), serial number: 984253 (PROD. - Z. F. MANAUS - AM). *


In my previous reply to Marta I did suggest that they might stand a better chance of selling one of these two 7A38's,

if she took the ZFM 7A38-7085 case-back off the 'Franken', and put it on the ZFM-dialled 7A38-7080, where it belongs.

I think that must have fallen on stony ground. :wallbash:


----------



## Paul66

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it unreasonable to assume that one would eventually be able to obtain a near mint or mint 7A28-7040/7049 (my first "real" watch) for approx. $300.00 USD or less, or are my assumptions all wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> No, you should be able to find one very easily. Just be patient, and broaden your search criteria - Think laterally.
> 
> At the risk of allowing this thread to keep going
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (the subject is 7A*3*8-xxxx divers not 7A28's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) ....
> 
> I'll ask the other Paul(66) to show you his example.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum Bruce! This is my 7A28-7040 that I picked up on ebay not so long ago. It is in excellent/ near perfect condition, I can't remember exactly how much I paid for it though (maybe Paul will know







) but it would have been around Â£100 or less. I'd have to agree with Paul that these do come up quite often so keep an eye on ebay and I'm sure it wont be too long until you bag one. Good luck.......


----------



## 7A28lvr

Paul66 said:


> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it unreasonable to assume that one would eventually be able to obtain a near mint or mint 7A28-7040/7049 (my first "real" watch) for approx. $300.00 USD or less, or are my assumptions all wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> No, you should be able to find one very easily. Just be patient, and broaden your search criteria - Think laterally.
> 
> At the risk of allowing this thread to keep going
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (the subject is 7A*3*8-xxxx divers not 7A28's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) ....
> 
> I'll ask the other Paul(66) to show you his example.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Welcome to the forum Bruce! This is my 7A28-7040 that I picked up on ebay not so long ago. It is in excellent/ near perfect condition, I can't remember exactly how much I paid for it though (maybe Paul will know
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) but it would have been around Â£100 or less. I'd have to agree with Paul that these do come up quite often so keep an eye on ebay and I'm sure it wont be too long until you bag one. Good luck.......
Click to expand...

Stunning example Paul. Thanks.


----------



## Paul66

7A28lvr said:


> Stunning example Paul. Thanks.


Not my best photo Bruce! Could have done with a bit more light but as you say it is in very good shape. Thanks!

You have to look hard and close when it comes to buying 7A28's and 38's!!!














As you probably now know!

Paul (Seikofan) is the master at unveiling the franken







and has saved me in the past more than once from being the *UN*lucky winning bidder!


----------



## SEIKO7A38

Paul66 said:


> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it unreasonable to assume that one would eventually be able to obtain a near mint or mint 7A28-7040/7049 (my first "real" watch) for approx. $300.00 USD or less, or are my assumptions all wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> No, you should be able to find one very easily. Just be patient, and broaden your search criteria - Think laterally.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Welcome to the forum Bruce! This is my 7A28-7040 that I picked up on ebay not so long ago. It is in excellent/ near perfect condition, I can't remember exactly how much I paid for it though (maybe Paul will know but it would have been around Â£100 or less. I'd have to agree with Paul that these do come up quite often so keep an eye on ebay and I'm sure it wont be too long until you bag one. Good luck.......
Click to expand...

Bruce. I presume you've seen the one listed on eBay in the States yesterday ? :huh:

Look close at the seller's poor-ish photo. Not sure that dial lume and hands are the best.

You need to get your post count up (to over 50), so I can PM you links as they come up.


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Paul66 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it unreasonable to assume that one would eventually be able to obtain a near mint or mint 7A28-7040/7049 (my first "real" watch) for approx. $300.00 USD or less, or are my assumptions all wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> No, you should be able to find one very easily. Just be patient, and broaden your search criteria - Think laterally.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Welcome to the forum Bruce! This is my 7A28-7040 that I picked up on ebay not so long ago. It is in excellent/ near perfect condition, I can't remember exactly how much I paid for it though (maybe Paul will know but it would have been around Â£100 or less. I'd have to agree with Paul that these do come up quite often so keep an eye on ebay and I'm sure it wont be too long until you bag one. Good luck.......
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Bruce. I presume you've seen the one listed on eBay in the States yesterday ? :huh:
> 
> Look close at the seller's poor-ish photo. Not sure that dial lume and hands are the best.
> 
> You need to get your post count up (to over 50), so I can PM you links as they come up.
Click to expand...

Paul, I absolutely noticed it and I am not sure if it is a bad re-lume attempt(see hour markers), a bad photo or the fact that I have bad vision. Possibly all three. The seller's response to my inquiry about the condition of the above mentioned hour markers was as follows: "Must be the photo. I don't see anything wrong with the dial. The fifth marker has a white speck on the end of it, might be dust on the dial. I don't know anything about watches". That vague response and the poor quality of the photo has me leery on this one, although it just might be a golden opportunity for someone more experienced. Feel free to message me anytime through eBay until I have enough posts under my belt as I don't want to bring unwanted attention to any active listings that you or your friends may be interested in. Thanks, as always, Bruce.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

7A28lvr said:


> Paul, I absolutely noticed it and I am not sure if it is a bad re-lume attempt(see hour markers) ....
> 
> .... That vague response and the poor quality of the photo has me leery on this one ....


Discoloured lume on batons and hands (which shows up particularly on these white-painted Seiko hands), is

often a symptom / result of previous leakage of battery acid fumes from an old flat battery left in too long. :thumbsdown:

Remember that from our earlier discussion of the ZFM 7A38-70xx Franken:



7A28lvr said:


> When questioned about lume problems at the 4 and 5 o'clock hour markers, the seller initally replied, "no problem, the dial is perfect".
> 
> Upon further questioning he finally relented and admitted that there is a "cipher of aging on the fluorescent".


.... where the seller subsequently changed the 722S dial for another, after your enquiry ?



7A28lvr said:


> Feel free to message me anytime through eBay ....


Good thinking, Batman.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Paul, I absolutely noticed it and I am not sure if it is a bad re-lume attempt(see hour markers) ....
> 
> 
> 
> Discoloured lume on batons and hands (which shows up particularly on these white-painted Seiko hands) ....
Click to expand...

After having had another closer look at that photo 'Decomposing' would be a better adjective than 'Discoloured'. :thumbsdown:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Check out eBay item # 250822095718 (now re-listed as item # 260790987681), if you haven't already seen it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *WATCH SEIKO VINTAGE MILITARY CHRONOGRAPH (7A38) RARITY*
Click to expand...




> This is what I reckon it actually comprises:
> 
> The case and bezel are either the original -7085 parts stripped of their black coating (lightly bead-blasted ?)
> 
> or the case and bezel may be from a stainless 7A38-7070. The bezel insert is a cut-down aftermarket. :butcher:
> 
> The bracelet is a B1075 off a 7A28-7040/-7049. It should be a B1242 (black-coated version of the B1241).
> 
> The dial is a ZFM Seiko 722S dial, the same as used in a ZFM 7A38-7295, fitted with a yellow sweep hand.


.... and I make no apologies for re-quoting myself:



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> This watch may have the case-back off a ZFM 7A38-7085 .... but IMO (revised) it is a *complete and utter Franken*. :hammer:


Just a quick update on this auction - still 7 days of the 30-Day Buy-it-Now (and get stung) listing to run ....

Overnight, for reasons best known to the Brazilian sellers, they have changed all of their listing photos yet again. :shocking:










Except for the original photo of the grotty looking 7A38A movement, which they've kept. 










Original Head shot:










After they'd fitted another (incorrect) 722S dial:










Latest iteration:










Not getting any better, is it ? :thumbsdown:

Edit: Listing has now received 500+ views, and thankfully still no mug punter has fallen for it.


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Listing has now received 500+ 550+ views, and thankfully still no mug punter has fallen for it.


Seems I spoke too soon. :shutup: Somebody just bought it. See: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260790987681&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_4438wt_935 :groan:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

It took me a while to find this original quote of yours:



7A28lvr said:


> I think what I am really asking you is this. Is it unreasonable to assume that one would eventually be able to obtain a near mint or mint 7A28-7040/7049 (my first "real" watch) for approx. $300.00 USD or less, or are my assumptions all wrong?





SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> No, you should be able to find one very easily. Just be patient, and broaden your search criteria - Think laterally.


Seems the answer *is* 'Yes', :yes: if you're patient enough, Bruce. :thumbup:



SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> You need to get your post count up (to over 50), so I can PM you links as they come up.


Oh, and by the way - Congratulations on finally making the 50 post mark ! :cheers:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Our friend in Sao Paulo is at it again and has produced eBay item #260791799950.
> 
> 
> 
> You got the jump on me there, Bruce (time difference), but it's great to have you on the case. :thumbsup:
> 
> He has indeed been 'at it' again, and has really shot himself in the foot this time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not just by listing this new one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *WATCH SEIKO VINTAGE BLACK MILITARY CHRONO 7A38 RARE 80s*
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Incidentally, that ZFM 7A38-7085 (fitted with a 7A38-7080 case-back) was re-listed yet again yesterday ....

for another 30 days, as item # 250863302346 with the *ridiculously* optimistic Buy-it-Now price of *$399.99*. 

However, I should add slightly less optimistic than the previous asking price of *$449.99* :rofl2:


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> It took me a while to find this original quote of yours:
> 
> 
> 
> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think what I am really asking you is this. Is it unreasonable to assume that one would eventually be able to obtain a near mint or mint 7A28-7040/7049 (my first "real" watch) for approx. $300.00 USD or less, or are my assumptions all wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you should be able to find one very easily. Just be patient, and broaden your search criteria - Think laterally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seems the answer *is* 'Yes', :yes: if you're patient enough, Bruce. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to get your post count up (to over 50), so I can PM you links as they come up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, and by the way - Congratulations on finally making the 50 post mark ! :cheers:
Click to expand...

Paul,

You have been extremely patient and helpful. Thank you!


----------



## jair1970

Are we all pretending we haven't noted the '7838' on the bay?

Looks alright to a novice punter like meself...


----------



## SEIKO7A38

jair1970 said:


> Are we all pretending we haven't noted the '7*8*38' on the bay?


Which one, James ? :lookaround: Ah got you now - the 7*A*38-6010. :wink2:

It's a bit worn around the edges, coating wise, and on a non-original bracelet. :thumbsdown:

Feel free to outbid me. I only put in a low-ball bid. :grin: My own example is much nicer.


----------



## jair1970

Heh!

I'm only interested if it stays silly cheap!

Which of course it could thanks to that mislabelling... :thumbup:

I won't be in any bidding war, so good luck. Let's hope the wider public are: :sleep1:


----------



## jair1970

Any idea what's going on here??

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEIKO-QUARTZ-Chronograph-MENS-WATCH-/110724431506?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item19c7b0be92


----------



## SEIKO7A38

jair1970 said:


> Any idea what's going on here??
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEIKO-QUARTZ-Chronograph-MENS-WATCH-/110724431506?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item19c7b0be92


It's no good trying to change the subject, James. Where's your Â£180-ish offer ? :search:

Not sure what's going on with that one - not a lot of activity. Looks like a common-or-garden gold-tone 7A38-7280.

Description is really helpful (not), but the case-back inscription (off whatever) is shall we say slightly more interesting. :comando:


----------



## SEIKO7A38

jair1970 said:


> Any idea what's going on here??
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SEIKO-QUARTZ-Chronograph-MENS-WATCH-/110724431506?pt=Wristwatches&hash=item19c7b0be92


I see someone has since been asking lots of questions of the seller. Is that you, James ?


----------



## SEIKO7A38

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *WATCH SEIKO VINTAGE BLACK MILITARY CHRONO 7A38 RARE 80s*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Incidentally, that ZFM 7A38-7085 (fitted with a 7A38-7080 case-back) was re-listed yet again yesterday ....
> 
> for another 30 days, as item # 250863302346 with the *ridiculously* optimistic Buy-it-Now price of *$399.99*.
Click to expand...

Getting back to the original topic - 7A38-xxxx Franken Divers ....

That Brazilian ZFM 7A38-7085 (with wrong -7080 case-back) appears to have finally sold a couple of days ago for $399.

See: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250863302346&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_3713wt_935

:groan:


----------



## jair1970

Not me! And the bank balance is precluding any offers comical or not, for fear of their acceptance.

Back to the frankens...


----------



## 7A28lvr

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> It took me a while to find this original quote of yours:
> 
> 
> 
> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think what I am really asking you is this. Is it unreasonable to assume that one would eventually be able to obtain a near mint or mint 7A28-7040/7049 (my first "real" watch) for approx. $300.00 USD or less, or are my assumptions all wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, you should be able to find one very easily. Just be patient, and broaden your search criteria - Think laterally.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Seems the answer *is* 'Yes', :yes: if you're patient enough, Bruce. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> SEIKO7A38Fan said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need to get your post count up (to over 50), so I can PM you links as they come up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, and by the way - Congratulations on finally making the 50 post mark ! :cheers:
Click to expand...

Just a quick pic of my recently acquired Seiko 7A28-7049. It has a few defects but I am nonetheless pleased. I just learned how extremely difficult watch photography is!


----------



## gamarp

7A28lvr said:


> Just a quick pic of my recently acquired Seiko 7A28-7049. It has a few defects but I am nonetheless pleased. I just learned how extremely difficult watch photography is!


Congratulation Bruce!

This is very nice 7A38, I really like it. :thumbsup:

Do couple of other shots and post them here!


----------



## SEIKO7A38

gamarp said:


> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a quick pic of my recently acquired Seiko 7A*2*8-7049.
> 
> 
> 
> This is very nice *7A38*, I really like it. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Actually, it's a 7A*2*8, Arpad. :acute:


----------



## 7A28lvr

gamarp said:


> 7A28lvr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just a quick pic of my recently acquired Seiko 7A28-7049. It has a few defects but I am nonetheless pleased. I just learned how extremely difficult watch photography is!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congratulation Bruce!
> 
> This is very nice 7A38, I really like it. :thumbsup:
> 
> Do couple of other shots and post them here!
Click to expand...

Thanks, Arpad. This particular Seiko 7A28-7049 (#650060) was produced fairly late as far as 7A28's go (May 1986), but it was a low number in that specific production run.


----------



## gamarp

SEIKO7A38Fan said:


> Actually, it's a 7A*2*8, Arpad. :acute:


 :groan:

Oh yeah, typing mistake.

But to protect myself it looks like the 7A38-7070


----------



## SEIKO7A38

gamarp said:


> But to protect myself it looks like the 7A38-7070


Not strictly true, Arpad.







But it does look like my Franken 7A38-7070.


----------

