# Alter watch



## Chantry1 (Apr 22, 2020)

I have this watch probably from the 50s called Alter - maybe French or Italian and hoped someone might have heard of it.

It has a normal dial with a sub second hand, but also has the word "cronometro" written on the dial which apparently means 'stop watch'.

I thought that stop watches had a separate dial for that purpose. Can anyone help?


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Welcome to the Forum, Chantry.

The term, "cronometro" (Eng. chronometer) written on the dial of your watch relates to the accuracy of the watch/movement and not to any "stop watch" function. The history of the term "chronometer" is an interesting one, but to cut things short, I will say that some watches marked with this term cannot actually claim to be chronometers in the more modern sense of the word. For a watch to be a true chronometer, it has to be tested by a relevant body and reach certain standards of accuracy. Unfortunately, certain companies still like to put the term, "chronometer", on watches that have no rightful claim to be classed as such.

I am doing a rapid research binge to see if I can find out something about "Alter" watches: I will post my results here below on this thread.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

I have not been able to find much about the Alter watch brand, but I am pretty sure that it is not Swiss. I illustrate the one vintage Alter watch that I have managed to find, and note that the back of the watch has been inscribed, "Fernando Gomez" together with the astrological lion and "Leo." The seller of this mechanical hand-wind watch (Vintage Watches at sokm77wsatches.blogspot.com) thought it might be of West German manufacture (for reasons unknown ) while I myself am leaning towards a Portugese or perhaps a Latin American origin for the "Alter" brand. Further research is needed.


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## Chantry1 (Apr 22, 2020)

Thank you so much for taking the trouble to investigate this for me. Interesting to note, is that the guy I bought the watch from said that the guy he got it from was in Portugal, so maybe that ties up!

Once, again, thanks for all your help.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Chantry1 said:


> I have this watch probably from the 50s called Alter


 I found one on Ebay, sold from Finland. Automatic FE 4612 movement and from the dial made in the 1970s. Caseback has fairly standard "Fond Acier Inox" for stainless steel back. I'd agree with Honour, unlikely to be Swiss, if only because no "Swiss Made" anywhere, but maybe one of the French makers working close to the border.










If you could post pictures of yours, especially of the movement, that would be interesting and might help with identification.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Thanks for showing that watch, Norman. It seems that we are honing in on Portugal as the most likely source of the Alter brand name; in terms of a possible South American link, I would expect Brazil to be the most likely contender.

I must also welcome the fact that @Chantry1 has acknowledged the research that members do to answer queries posted on the Forum. It makes quite a difference when a thank you is posted on such a thread.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Well, the FE 4612 is a French movement. Unless we see the OP's watch, I think the jury is out, but I'd bet on French.


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## DJJazzyJeff (Apr 2, 2020)

> Thanks for showing that watch, Norman. It seems that we are honing in on Portugal as the most likely source of the Alter brand name; in terms of a possible South American link, I would expect Brazil to be the most likely contender.
> 
> I must also welcome the fact that @Chantry1 has acknowledged the research that members do to answer queries posted on the Forum. It makes quite a difference when a thank you is posted on such a thread.


 I'd also like to thank you. I have no particular in this watch or many others you've researched, but I really appreciate the effort you put in and love reading the fruits of your labour, which often make an indistinct watch much more interesting. And of course to the owners, only make their beloved item more beloved! 
Thanks!


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

In the absence of photos from the OP, here's another Alter watch from Ebay, UK seller, with a different style of wordmark from the ones we've found up to now, and the word "Cronometro" on the dial. Movement is handwinding Lorsa 238G, so I still think the brand is French, (even if made for another market), though who the maker was is still a mystery.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Thanks for showing that interesting watch, Norman.

These sort of attribution questions are certainly tricky, but your new evidence does indicate that the Alter watches may be French in origin although French movements were used internationally by certain watch companies. I still feel that there may be a Portugese connection ...


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

> I still feel that there may be a Portugese connection


 or South American. I agree, given "Cronometro" appeared on Waltham pocket watches destined for South America in the 1890s and Waltham used Lorsa movements mid 20th century.

I found an identical watch to the Alter Cronometro sold on ebay from Portugal, they might even both be the OP's watch. And this with a Lorsa 238, branded Leão, which is Portugese for Lion. Fascinating.


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## Chantry1 (Apr 22, 2020)

Thanks again to everyone for showing interest in this Alter watch. The 2 pictures that you have come up with spinynorman, are in fact the actual watch that I bought from ebay several months ago.

What I now recall is the seller two times ago (in Portugal), saying he believed it was French.

Being non technical with watch movements, may I ask what sort of quality the Lorsa is like?

Much appreciated.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Chantry1 said:


> may I ask what sort of quality the Lorsa is like?


 I'm no expert, but from what I've picked up here and there, Lorsa won't bring tears of joy from the average watch enthusiast. You can see it's industrial in construction and not at all pretty. That said, it's well made and there's no reason it wouldn't keep good time, with the occasional service. No shock protection, though, so don't drop it. I've linked to an article on a few of the lesser known French watch brands, which also mentions the movement makers.

https://wahawatches.com/all-you-need-to-know-about-french-watches/


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## Chantry1 (Apr 22, 2020)

Thanks again for that!


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

Surely it can only be Portuguese looking at the day window. It shows 'TER' short for Terca , which is Tuesday in Portuguese.

There's no 'TER' day in French or Spanish.

I've got a very vague recollection that I've seen this brand advertised as Portuguese military before. In actual fact it was a NAAFI watch sold to servicemen as they did not issue military watches. The old brain might be playing tricks though


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

eezy said:


> Surely it can only be Portuguese looking at the day window. It shows 'TER' short for Terca , which is Tuesday in Portuguese.
> 
> There's no 'TER' day in French or Spanish.
> 
> I've got a very vague recollection that I've seen this brand advertised as Portuguese military before. In actual fact it was a NAAFI watch sold to servicemen as they did not issue military watches. The old brain might be playing tricks though


 Good spot on the day. However, I don't know of any Portuguese watch makers and the only clue I have found was a reference to IWC - "as near as Portugal gets to a connection with the watch industry".

It's equally possible a French manufacturer made these watches specifically for the Portugese market. Perhaps imported by a local jeweller.

Military connection would be interesting if we could get confirmation. It's a shame the name is so generic and hard to search.


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## eezy (Apr 13, 2018)

spinynorman said:


> Good spot on the day. However, I don't know of any Portuguese watch makers and the only clue I have found was a reference to IWC - "as near as Portugal gets to a connection with the watch industry".
> 
> It's equally possible a French manufacturer made these watches specifically for the Portugese market. Perhaps imported by a local jeweller.
> 
> Military connection would be interesting if we could get confirmation. It's a shame the name is so generic and hard to search.


 Yes not impossible that it was built for the export market.

My somewhat tenuous link to the military is by virtue of the fact that I once bid on a Portuguese watch advertised as military. At the time my enthusiasm was tempered by the fact that upon researching it, I discovered there were no Portuguese military issued watches and as I said they were supplied to the 'NAAFI' to be purchased much like Indian and Russian military watches.

Sorry to be so vague


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

I think what we'd be looking for is someone like David Jaime Kolinski, who moved to Lisbon from Poland in the 1930s and set up as a watchmaker, but also imported clocks and, later, wristwatches. Sadly the history of the Tempus Group retail chain that succeeds him doesn't mention any brands that might be in the company's past.


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## Vanelli (Apr 19, 2021)




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## Vanelli (Apr 19, 2021)

Vanelli said:


>


 This watch I have been buying on a local "eBay" in the Netherlands. Like all others in this forum, very interested to understand history etc. of the brand and this watch. Any information more than welcome!


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Vanelli said:


> This watch I have been buying on a local "eBay" in the Netherlands. Like all others in this forum, very interested to understand history etc. of the brand and this watch. Any information more than welcome!


 Welcome to the forum, Vanelli. As you can see, @Always"watching", @eezy and I discussed this brand a year ago. The most definite conclusion was that Alter watches were made for the Portugese market. This evening I came across a Portugese language forum thread which includes a list of "brands of Portuguese retailers", one of which is Alter. However, I don't think that implies your watch was made in Portugal, and I still think the most likely country of origin is France. I just can't find out who the manufacturer was. Maybe one day someone who lives in Portugal will be able to put us out of our misery. 

It would be useful to know which movement is in your watch, and if there are any clues to the maker on the back, or inside the case, if you feel confident to open it and post more photos.


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## Vanelli (Apr 19, 2021)

Yesterday I have bought as second watch of this brand Alter. The seller is Portugese and told me " Unfortunately I don't have much information about this watch. Only that it was a brand of a watchmaker in Lisboa, Portugal, who was born in Alter do Chao, Alentejo, Portugal. Hence the watch was branded "Alter". This watchmaker no longer exists."

Small step ahead; so more and more Portugese manufacturing seems to be correct.

Also the new watch with a FE4612 movement.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Vanelli said:


> Yesterday I have bought as second watch of this brand Alter. The seller is Portugese and told me " Unfortunately I don't have much information about this watch. Only that it was a brand of a watchmaker in Lisboa, Portugal, who was born in Alter do Chao, Alentejo, Portugal. Hence the watch was branded "Alter". This watchmaker no longer exists."
> 
> Small step ahead; so more and more Portugese manufacturing seems to be correct.
> 
> Also the new watch with a FE4612 movement.


 Thanks for coming back and giving us this information, that is very interesting. "FE" stands for "France Ebauche", which was the successor to the French movement manufacturer Cupillard. This movement suggests your watch was made in the 1970s. It could be that a complete watch was imported with the "Alter" branding already on the dial, or the retailer had facilities to assemble the watch from other imported parts. I think the former is more likely, as it was usual for a Swiss or French manufacturer to export in this way, either to an agent in the destination country, or directly to the retailer. If you could post photos of the watch and movement that would be interesting. If you don't already have the photos online where you can link to them, take the free trial of the forum gallery and then you can copy/paste the images straight into your post.

https://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/subscriptions/


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