# Sticky  Dating Vintage Watches



## Agent orange

Lots of people ask about dating watches so I thought it might be a good idea to share our collective information.

I'll start the ball rolling with dating Omegas. Essentially all Omegas are dated by their movement number, obviously you'll need access the movement to find this. Once that's done here's a list of movement numbers with corresponding years, I hope this is legible.










Although this is a good system and extremely useful it's not infallible or 100% accurate. Lots of Omegas are put togethers or frankenwatches especially the more iconic models. For example a vintage SM300 may well have a cal.565 from a much less valuable model like a Geneve. If your movement has a R next to the number it means it's a service replacement movement (thanks to JonW for that snippet of info).

Hope this helps and if anyone want to share dating information from other manufacturers please add to this post.

I've got a scan of a German Tissot dating sheet somewhere, if I can find it I'll translate, type it out and post later.

Cheers,

Gary

P.S. Mods do you think this might be worth pinning? Hopefully it'll grow into a useful resource for many.


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## Agent orange

Right Seikos next.

Most Seikos have a 6 digit number on the case back. The first number represents the year and the second the month of manufacture.

Here's my my 6138-8039 by way of an example.










So this one dates from September 1976. Obviously you need to have an idea of the decade the watch was produced. If you're uncertain about this there's also a dating calendar on the link below.

http://www.csce.uark.edu/~jgauch/tools/seiko.html

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange

Next up Tissot. Found my scan and typed this lot in, so a labour of love.

Tissots are dated by the movement numbers like Omegas, here's a list of numbers with there corresponding year(s).










I do suffer from mild dyslexia so I'm not guaranteeing the accuracy of this chart.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange

Next up Bulovas.

In the 1950's Bulova incorporated a letter and number system to date the watches they manufactured, these are stamped on the outside of the case back. The code is very simple, the letter represents the decade L=50, M=60, N=70, P=80, T=90 and the number is the year.

Here's an example from 1968 (M8)










Image nicked from the web

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange

Rolex

Rolexs are dated by a serial number which is found between the lugs, at the bottom of the case (6 o-clock). The serial number denotes the actual manufacture date. Date of market introduction may vary, expect to add 6 to 18 months.

Here's a list of their oyster model serial numbers and corresponding years.










Please don't get all technical on me as I know diddly squat about Rolex :blink:

Cheers,

Gary


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## PhilM

Also just to add to the Rolex numbers Gary, any case that starts with 44 or 47 is also a service replacment 

As is the sapphire crystals that have an "S" inside the LEC

BTW Great idea for a thread :thumbsup:


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## mel

Early Timex UK Dundee markings.

Inside the caseback is a code consisting of one letter and one number (stamped in ink - don't wash off)

1959 - 8

1960 - 7

1961 - 6

1962 - 5

1963 - 4

1964 - 3

1965 - 2

1966 - 1

1967 - 9

Don't ask about the logic, nobody seems to know  The letter is believed to indicate either the month of manufacture, or the production line, again no one seems to know for sure.

From 1967 onwards dating can be done using the numbers on the dial at the six -o'clock marker. Numbers to the left of the marker indicate model of watch, those to the right of the marker are normally the movement number and year of manufacture.

Assume an eight figure number, first four are 2014, this is the catalogue (model) number, and to the right, 2468 indicating a #24 movement, and year of manufacture as 1968. As far as is known, longer than eight figure numbers follow this pattern, but always with the last two indicating year of manufacture.

(I'll stand to be corrected in the last part of that statement if anyone knows better or more - and watches made in other Timex plants worldwide may not follow this set of rules exactly)

Timex sub-brands also using some or all of this system include Kelton, Saga and various unbranded character watches.


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## Agent orange

Thanks Phil and Mel  .

Here's the year and corresponding serial numbers for Tudor.

Year.................... Serial (Earliest)

1959.................... 27xxxx

1960.................... 28xxxx

1961.................... 34xxxx

1962.................... 34xxxx

1963.................... 39xxxx

1964.................... 43xxxx

1965.................... 43xxxx

1966.................... 56xxxx

1967.................... 59xxxx

1968.................... 62xxxx

1969*................... 68xxxx

1970.................... 74xxxx

1971.................... 75xxxx

1972.................... 77xxxx

1973*................... 79xxxx

1974*................... 81xxxx

1975*................... 83xxxx

1976*................... 84xxxx

1977.................... 86xxxx

1978*................... 88xxxx

1979*................... 90xxxx

1980*................... 93xxxx

1981*................... 95xxxx

1982.................... 97xxxx

1983*................... 98xxxx

1984.................... 99xxxx

1985.................... 14xxxx

1986.................... 17xxxx

1987*................... 19xxxx

1988.................... 21xxxx

1989.................... 26xxxx

1990.................... B33xxxx

1991*................... B36xxxx

1992.................... B39xxxx

1993.................... B50xxxx

1994.................... B56xxxx

1995.................... B59xxxx

1996.................... B79xxxx

1997.................... B85xxxx

1998.................... B99xxxx

1999.................... H13xxxx

2000.................... H17xxxx

2001*................... H24xxxx

2002.................... H30xxxx

Remarks :

- (*) is the estimated figures

- MN info not included

- O serial not included

Thanks to Rolexforums member Bagel for the info and my mate Dave for bringing it to my attention 

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange

Thanks for pinning this Phil(?) hopefully it'll prove useful to some :good:

If anyone else has other manufacturer production calendars or means of dating watches please feel free to contribute.

In the meantime I'll do some digging on the interweb and see what I can find.

Cheers,

Gary


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## JoT

Great idea for a thread :yes:

Not an exact science but Glycine Airman watches can be dated approximately by their movements:

1953 to 1960 (Airman 1)Felsa 692 (the "Bidynator" movement) 23 jewels

1960 to 1967 (Airman 1 and Airman 1 Special) A.Schild 1701, 25 jewels and 17 jewels in the Airman Special

1967 to 1971 (Airman 1 and SST) A.Schild 1903, 25 jewels

1971 to 1974 (Airman 1 and SST) A.Schild 2063, 25 jewels

1974 to 1978 (Airman 1 and SST) A.Schild 2163, 25 jewels


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## rhaythorne

Â Can't remember if I posted this before, but I consolidated a lot of info here:

http://www.h-spot.ne...erial-dates.htm

...and if I pinch any info from this thread I'll try to remember where I got it from this time


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## jasonm

Great thread, thanks guys!


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## Agent orange

rhaythorne said:


> Â Can't remember if I posted this before, but I consolidated a lot of info here:
> 
> http://www.h-spot.ne...erial-dates.htm
> 
> ...and if I pinch any info from this thread I'll try to remember where I got it from this time


Thanks for that Rich and feel free to pinch away :good:

Cheers,

Gary


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## JonW

Great thread Gary (and others). 

Edited to start a list of those you cant date...

Aquastar

Eterna

... hmm...


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## mach 0.0013137

A rough guide to dating Services watches by the dial logo...

*"Services"*- mid 1920s to late 1930s.

*Services*- late 1930s to late 1950s

*SERVICES* (above an S inside a shield)- late 1950s until the company ceased selling watches sometime in the late 1970s/early 80`s.


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## mach 0.0013137

Rich (rhaythorne) has used the information above to create this graphic (which he`s allowed me to use)...










As you can see it gives a much better indication of the different logo styles Services used over the years, well done Rich & thanks :thumbsup:

Thankfully he corrected this mistake of mine... *SERVICES* (above an S inside a shield) h34r:


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## Agent orange

I'm currently trying to find out more about vintage Longines and stumbled across this.

http://www.vintagewatchresources.com/year_identifier.php

I don't own a Longines (got something incoming though







) so can't vouch for its accuracy.

Cheers,

Gary


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## sam.

Agent orange said:


> Rolex
> 
> Rolexs are dated by a serial number which is found between the lugs, at the bottom of the case (6 o-clock). The serial number denotes the actual manufacture date. Date of market introduction may vary, expect to add 6 to 18 months.
> 
> Here's a list of their oyster model serial numbers and corresponding years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't get all technical on me as I know diddly squat about Rolex :blink:
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Hi Gary,i hope you dont mind,but i just wanted to add something to your great thread.My Rolex was made in 1957, with a serial number of 234*** ,that is also a 1942-1943 serial number,as your list correctly says,there is a link here i just found to another chart that explains more about this,rather than trying to explain it(which i would probably mess up)

Good luck with your research,this is a thread that we can all contribute to,and learn from! :thumbsup: :cheers:

My link


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## Agent orange

Thanks Sam :good:

As I said I know nothing about Rolex so I'll hopefully learn from those who are far more knowledgeable.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange

Just stumbled across these.

*BREITLING SERIAL NUMBERS*

Red=chronographs

Black=non chronographs

*1944*

563659-568959

298262 - 313351

*1945*

568971-636507

313352 - 354254

*1946*

636508-692266

354255 - 406688

*1947*

703562-717737

406689 - 417234

*1948*

717784-728688

417235 - 448093

*1949*

728724-740210

448094 - 467655

*1950*

740405-769843

467656 - 498512

*1951*

769844-808456

498513 - 592542

*1952*

808457-817915

592543 - 646974

*1953*

817916-832126

646975 - 660248

*1954*

832127-844123

660249 - 690037

*1955*

844124-868778

690038 - 740339

*1956*

868779-889562

740340 - 861841

*1957*

889563-898029

861842 - 881067

*1958*

898830-910504

881068 - 890396

*1959*

910505-922163

890397 - 903387

*1960*

922164-933063

903388 - 917613

*1961*

933064-947803

917614 - 971814

*1962*

947804-963553

971815 - 995108

*1963*

963554-975997

995109 - 996458

*1964*

975998-1002734

996459 - 998198

*1965*

1002735-1060398

998199 - 1000198

*1966*

1060399-1122809

1000199 - 1002543

*1967*

1122810-1204581

1002544 - 1002743

*1968*

1204582-1262904

1002744 - 1002943

*1969*

1262905-1337825

*1970*

1337826-1356899

1002944 - 1003103

*1971*

1356900-1382203

1003104 - 1003153

*1972*

1382204-1406566

1003154 - 1003213

*1973*

1406567-1426969

*1974*

1426970-1433372

*1975*

1433373-1439417

1003214 - 1003713

*1976*

1439418-1442922

1003714 - 1004083

*1977*

1442923-1448464

1004084 - 1004183

*1978*

1448465-1448473

Cheers,

Gary


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## sam.

Agent orange said:


> Thanks Sam :good:
> 
> As I said I know nothing about Rolex so I'll hopefully learn from those who are far more knowledgeable.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Rolex have used the same numbers twice.

"I'll hopefully learn from those who are far more knowledgeable."

Hopefully so will i! :thumbsup: :cheers:


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## seemore

Shamelessly nicked from another site Universal Geneve Dates

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm163/dogrid/UGserial_list.gif


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## mach 0.0013137

Just thought I`d add this which is the only information I`ve seen relating to dating Citizen watches...



K.I.T.T. said:


> Dating Seiko & Citizen Watches:
> 
> Well it's pretty easy just so long as you know when the Movements were in production... So for example the Seiko SKX007 Powered by a 7S26 Automatic Movement. With a serial number of 1N0596 is easy to date...
> 
> Movement 1st made for sale in 1996
> 
> The 1st number of the serial number signifies the year which is '1' so that means it is 2001
> 
> The 2nd number or letter signifies the Month 'N' which is November
> 
> So this watch was produced in November 2001 ;-))
> 
> So for a 7S26 Powered Watch.
> 
> Seiko Year:
> 
> 6 - 1996
> 
> 7 - 1997
> 
> 8 - 1998
> 
> 9 - 1999
> 
> 0 - 2000
> 
> 1 - 2001
> 
> 2 - 2002
> 
> 3 - 2003
> 
> 4 - 2004
> 
> 5 - 2005
> 
> ? - 2006 Oh this year is going to be Fun!!!!!!
> 
> Seiko Month:
> 
> 1 - January
> 
> 2 - February
> 
> 3 - March
> 
> 4 - April
> 
> 5 - May
> 
> 6 - June
> 
> 7 - July
> 
> 8 - August
> 
> 9 - September
> 
> O - October
> 
> N - November
> 
> D - December
> 
> With Citizen Watches it was thought that the Serial number worked in the same way but it is now thought to differ with the month part.... This was mainly because it was noted that there were apparently a lot of watch serial numbers with the 2nd number of '0/O' pointing to an October manufactured Month... So the current mode of thought is like this...
> 
> Citizen Serial Number 81107543
> 
> Movt. 1st made for sale in 1967
> 
> The 1st number of the serial number is '8' so 1968
> 
> The 2nd number is 1 [under the Seiko method we'd think January... However this is now thought to be wrong] it is the 2nd + 3rd number which is 1+1 = 11 so the Month is November
> 
> The watch was made in November 1968
> 
> Citizen Year:
> 
> Same year Method as the Seiko:
> 
> Citizen Month:
> 
> 01 - January
> 
> 02 - February
> 
> 03 - March
> 
> 04 - April
> 
> 05 - May
> 
> 06 - June
> 
> 07 - July
> 
> 08 - August
> 
> 09 - September
> 
> 10 - October
> 
> 11 - November
> 
> 12 - December
> 
> This method works well with my vintage Citizens...
> 
> I hope that it helps...
> 
> Mike


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## hours

here's a good one everytime you try to look up citizen or any other watch in that order you get sent to there main page and have to pay money to get answer, well here's a real good movement page to bypass all there crap..lol...http://www.citizenwatch.com/downloads/tech/tech.htm


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## scottswatches

Great thread - fantastic resource for all of us! If anyone has more success than me dating a Zenith then please let me know how!


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## Mechanical Alarm

[B]Dating Vintage Watches[/B]:

You know... I love watches but I think I'll stick to women!


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## rhaythorne

Evening all 

*Bulova: 1924-1948*










I added this graphic to myÂ Â web site a couple of days ago that describes Bulova's method of dating watches between 1924 and 1948. Â I guess we've all seen the later A-T, 0-9 dating method before, but I for one wasn't aware of this earlier method. Â I redrew the symbols whilst pottering about in OpenOffice so, whilst not super-accurate representations, they should at least be good enough to identify the similar markings on Bulova movements from that era.

However, once again I've forgotten where I got this information from but, having trawled about on the Internet for the original, I found that there seem to be two variations on the symbols for 1946. Â One version has just "46" whilst another has "46" and a square, as in the above pic.

Can anyone confirm what the correct marking should be? Â Maybe it's an either/or?


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## rhaythorne

This is not quite off-topic, just a slight ricochet!

Before we can date our vintage watch movements we at least need to know who made them! The RLT Photo Gallery had some usefull watch movement marking/symbol information but the Photo Gallery seems to have been offline for a while. So, I've scanned the Swiss movement marking symbols from my own copies of the "Catalogue Officiel des Pieces de Rhabillage pour Montres Suisses" (the Officical Swiss Watch Spare Parts Catalogue) circa 1949 and you can download these large pics from here and identify your watch movements:


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## Mechanical Alarm

Does anybody have a system for dating Lecoultre's??

I have heard you can write them directly and they are quite helpful but it is a watch I am looking to buy and I can't obtain any pix for it, etc. Just a serial # and case #.

Thanx!


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## Mechanical Alarm

Mechanical Alarm said:


> Does anybody have a system for dating Lecoultre's??
> 
> I have heard you can write them directly and they are quite helpful but it is a watch I am looking to buy and I can't obtain any pix for it, etc. Just a serial # and case #.
> 
> Thanx!


Still looking for that "LeCoultre System,"... Thanx - Robert


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## martinzx

Here are a few Longines numbers from the 1970's it seems that they padded the numbers out in the 1970's because in 1969 they were on 15 million,

thanks to davidcxn from this forum for the link, (info gleaned from the net)

1972 50,841,***

1972 50,849,***

1972 50,851,***

1972 50,858,***

1972 51,109,***

1974 52,216,***

c1976 51,799,***

c1977 53,478,***

c1977 54,387,***

c1977 54,475,***

c1980 53,902,***

Cheers Martin


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## J.P.R

Hi I have an ancient old Rolex with a very early and rare oyster case in which a cal 59 Tudor at it's centre. I have recently had it fixed but would like to know how early it really is.

Its serial number on the inside of the case and is: 25551. It has a military dial with sub-seconds dial at the 6 o'clock position with Oyster and then just above the sub dial is the name unicorn. It has the early screw down crown. I would also like to have a rough estimate of how much a collector would pay for it, and also how old it is. Thanks.


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## mach 0.0013137

Just to let anyone that`s interested know that after gathering more information the Services chart has been updated including the addition of an earlier logo style...










II haven`t been able to ascertain when the change from the company changed over from the first to second logo & the chart still is still not completely accurate but it will do until I clarify things a bit more


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## mach 0.0013137

Ok, maybe I should have checked that post more carefully 

Here`s what I meant to say...

I haven`t been able to ascertain when the company changed over from the first to second logo, also the chart is still not completely accurate but it`ll do until I can clarify things a bit more :wink2:


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## mach 0.0013137

I forgot to say thanks to Rich (rhaythorne) for the great job he did creating the graphic 










Cheers Rich :thumbsup:


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## john87300

*Rodana/Rodania*

*
*

Having just acquired a Rodana, I looked up the references on here as well as searching around the net, and I found a slightly different version of the history, look up Rodania on Wikipedia!

Also I've found some old brand ads




























and my latest acquisition


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## redmonaco

Anyone know how to date a vertex watch please. I can't find anything on the web...


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## john87300

redmonaco said:


> Anyone know how to date a vertex watch please. I can't find anything on the web...


The good Doctor at Mikrolisk shows 4 references to Vertex,


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## oz-bear

Good thread. Here's a follow on from the previous Rolex Dating post. I found this while trolling around the net.

Year Case Number

2004 Y, F

2005 F, D

2006 F,D,Z

2007 Z,M

2008 Z,M,V

2009 V

"As of August 2010 serial numbers for new Rolex watches are randomized making it impossible to use the numbers for dating purposes".

Also Omega follow on:

1998 56 million

1999 59.8 mil

2000 61 mil

2001 65 mil

2002 65.5 mil

2003 68 mil

2004 70 mil

2005 72 mil

2006 78 mil

2007 81 mil

2008 84 mil


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## Bathysphere

I have a Unicorn watch which i understand is part of the Rolex family, it has a silver case and the front has Northern Goldsmith Newcastle and as it was found in a field many years ago by my father in law we know nothing of the history, anyone have any ideas how to get info on the watch, age/value etc.It does not have a strap and the glass is missing. If this helps numbers on the back casing read 578 127858

many thanks in advance


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## dos365

Enquiring about watches my wife has inherited from her grandfather and father (the Rolex Army case 3139 cushion style and the Baume Automatic, respectively). I attach some pics - hope they are detailed enough. Would anyone perhaps be able to provide some information about them, please?

Thanks,

Danny

P.S. I am most interested in having them cleaned/repaired so they can be worn.

Only yesterday the Rolex started working and has kept good time since...(we had sent it via local watch shop to Rolex HQ, who sent it back with a " Can't do anything with this old thing-type response" ); the Baume works intermittently, or at least when someone's wearing it.

Any advice much appreciated

Now the Rolex, back and frontâ€¦


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## dos365

Hi ,

I clearly haven't got a scooby do how to include pics...help anyone??


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## dos365

http://s1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg512/dos365/?action=view&current=Baumewatch.jpg

http://i1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg512/dos365/IMG_5307.jpg

http://i1241.photobucket.com/albums/gg512/dos365/IMG_5310.jpg

Did that work?!!


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## Agent orange

Not quite, you need to post the IMG code (last one in the links section).



















I'm assuming your first link to Baume watch was a mistake.

Cheers,

Gary


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## Agent orange

Sorry just read your post properly (I'm a rubbish speed reader :blush: ) here's your pic of the Baume.










Cheers,

Gary


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## Olivajam

Has anyone got Breitlings?


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## Agent orange

Breitlings up until 1978 are on page 2.

Cheers,

Gary


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## 1955mercury

Agent orange said:


> Next up Bulovas.
> 
> In the 1950's Bulova incorporated a letter and number system to date the watches they manufactured, these are stamped on the outside of the case back. The code is very simple, the letter represents the decade L=50, M=60, N=70, P=80, T=90 and the number is the year.
> 
> Here's an example from 1968 (M8)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Image nicked from the web
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Bulova used A8 for 1948 and A9 for 1949.


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## bjohnson

1955mercury said:


> Bulova used A8 for 1948 and A9 for 1949.


From my experience, Bulova used '48' for 1948 and '49' for 1949 and the "A" letter codes denote 2000 to 2009


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## scottswatches

I have managed to find out a bit about ZENITH










PS "*The ZENITH logo (star) changed on the french market for the watches produced in our subsidiary in BesanÃ§on from app. 1965 till 1970*." : for a stylised 4 pointed star rather than the usual 5 pointed Zenith star


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## scottswatches

Not a perfect resource, but better than nothing for IWC watches

http://www.iwcforum.com/Vintage_Catalogs.html

and very interesting - the 1972 catalogue has a section on electronic and electronic quartz watches.

Anyone want a birth year watch?


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## Rolo1

http://www.nawcc-info.org/walthamdb/LookupSN.asp - for dating walthams, will also give model numbers and some other info from your serial number.


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## Agent orange

Just found this chart for Universal Geneve watches from 1930 - 1967. In most instances with UG there's a number on the outside of the case back.










If anyone has information for Universal Geneve from 1967 onwards I'd love to see it.

Cheers,

Gary


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## aroma

Dating of the "English-Made" Smiths watches

Unfortunately there is no published system for dating Smiths watches but if the case is solid gold then it is probably best to use the hallmark date letter this holds true throughout the production period 1947 to 1970. Beware that many Smiths watches have been re-cased and sometimes movements have been repaired with cannibalized parts so it is all a bit of a minefield. However, the following observations should help in ascertaining the date of production:-



Production started in 1947 and the early ones had just "Smiths" on the dial. The movements were nickel not gilt, were sub-second and were marked with an engraved serial number which initially had NO PREFIX LETTER


1948 saw the introduction of the prefix letter to the serial number starting with "A" but within the year a "B" and finally a "C" was used.


1952 "DeLuxe" appears on the dial, movement serials still have "C" prefix which continues sequentially until 1959. There is quite a spread in the serial numbers c.f. dates suggesting that some movements and/or cases were stored for a significant time before use.


1953 the 17J centre second movement arrives, usually the movement serial is prefixed with a JC but the serial number is in the same sequence as the sub second range


1958 " Shockproofing" is introduced to the DeLuxe range but initially the dials do not state this. The top-of-the-range 18J was Shockproofed in 1955 as was the cheap pin-pallet range.


1958 the 19J Imperial calibre 0104 is introduced, no serial numbers are ever used on the Imperials just the calibre and batch number sometimes, Imperials are always shockproof.


1959 DeLuxe dials now marked "SHOCKPROOF"


1959/60 DeLuxe movements are no longer serial numbered just the batch number is used. The last serial number is ~C46xxxx


1959 The Astral is introduced, no serial numbers are used on Astral movements just the batch number. Astrals are always shockproof.


1961 - The 25J Automatic movement (based on the Imperial) is introduced


1960 to1962 - Imperial, DeLuxe and Astral continue with just batch numbers on movements and are difficult to date at this point.


1963 Some DeLuxe and all Imperial models are rebranded as EVEREST. Rebranded Imperials have a calibre number 0104E or 10104E. Astral range stays as it was. The 25J Automatic calibre number is 10144G.


1964 Astral dial script is changed to "SMITHS ASTRAL" in line. Previously the Astral was printed in italics below the name "Smiths".


1964 The old 27CS 17J centre second movement is modified to become a slimline movement in line with the then current trend for slim watches. This slimline movement becomes THE standard for all the centre second models.


1965 The calibre number is introduced to all watches stamped next to the balance.


60461E is the 15J sub second

60464E is the slimline 17J centre second

60465E is the slimline 17J centre second with calendar



1967 60466E (slimline 17J centre second with hacking) is introduced. Smiths GS4701 Military Watches appear and use this movement


1968 60474E (slimline 17J centre second with calendar â€" maybe hacking as well) is introduced for the CM4501 Astral Diver. The 60467E (calendar) is also introduced but I don't know the difference between this and the earlier 60465E calendar. The 60471E 16J sub second is introduced


If you use the hallmark date letter from gold cased DeLuxe watches as the dating medium, it is possible to get some idea of the serial numbering sequence (please bear in mind that there is sometimes a significant overlap as watch movements and cases were stored before use) anyway it goes something like this:-

Pre 1948 no prefix letter used with serial number

1948 A, B and C prefix used.

Year serial number

1947/48 C794

1948/49 C32208

1950/51 C53225

1951/52 C106845

1952/53 C143852

1953/54

1954/55 C204851

1955/56 C253061

1956/57 C340318

1957/58 C356042

1958/59 C408323

1959/60 C445920

This is just a 'first attempt' at dating Smiths and hopefully as more information becomes available it will become more accurate


----------



## alexcanton-dutari

Thank you... I was able to date my Hamilton thanks to the Grade number on the engine -- 753 --which together with the number 56084F -- the F is in the beginning on the Hamilton chart provided in the link here... 1951-1954... Good enough for me... :thumbup:


----------



## jamaicajack

hi can anyone help me with dating my watch??..its a ROSS 17 jewel divers style ....its has 6012 stamped on the centre of the case back,swiss made...but no idea when...I will up upload a picture of it


----------



## Markrlondon

sancho1983 said:


> Hi, looking to date this Bulova
> 
> [pic]
> 
> It was my grandfather's and I think it's reasonably old, older than me at least
> 
> On the back there doesn't appear to be any letter/number combination just the words Bulova and a dancing lady. I may *just* be able to see 1.777.153 really faintly in the bottom. On the back of the strap on each link it says "Speidel USA" - I suppose not an original strap?
> 
> Any help would be appreciated. :thumbup:


I can't help date it (other than to say that it looks like late 60s/70s to me in terms of style) but Bulovas were very often supplied in that timeframe on Speidel expanding straps, so the strap could well be original or at least contemporary.


----------



## AVO

I would agree with possibly late '60s to early '70s based on the style.

Bulovas have a year code either on the inside caseback or the movement. 1960s are M and 1970s are N - I wouldn't exepct to look outside those decades.

So, a M6 would be 1966 and a N3 is 1973 - easy!

Get good photos - front, back, inside caseback and movement and sign up to Mybulova dot com. The experts are very efficient. Good luck.


----------



## Suhanko

Hi everybody!

I don't know if I'm posting in correct pleace, then sorry if I'm doing something wrong.

I have a watch which I earned of the father of my grand-father (english isn't my native language and I have no idea the correct word to this person). With me, this watch have more than 33 years old and I don't know the correct date that was made.

The clock is a White Star. I think that is a gold watch, so can someone help me to identify their material value?

Behind this clock there is a inscription with that: swiss made 28069

Thanks a lot!


----------



## scottswatches

to see if it is gold, look for marks either saying 375 or 9ct for nine carat gold, or .750 for 18ct. If the case back is gold then the watch probably is, if it is stainless steel it is likely to be gold plated


----------



## Suhanko

scottswatches said:


> to see if it is gold, look for marks either saying 375 or 9ct for nine carat gold, or .750 for 18ct. If the case back is gold then the watch probably is, if it is stainless steel it is likely to be gold plated


Oh, thanks for answer.

I couldn't found marks, just a inscription saying "antimagnetic" in their display.

Is there some place which I can found information about White Star watches?


----------



## Beeks

I know you're all watch enthusiasts but I stop short at taking mine for a romantic meal...

*coat got*


----------



## scottswatches

Suhanko said:


> scottswatches said:
> 
> 
> 
> to see if it is gold, look for marks either saying 375 or 9ct for nine carat gold, or .750 for 18ct. If the case back is gold then the watch probably is, if it is stainless steel it is likely to be gold plated
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, thanks for answer.
> 
> I couldn't found marks, just a inscription saying "antimagnetic" in their display.
> 
> Is there some place which I can found information about White Star watches?
Click to expand...

have you tried searching The Watch Forum?

http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=75926&hl=%2Bwhite+%2Bstar&fromsearch=1

:rltb:


----------



## mach 0.0013137

Beeks said:


> I know you're all watch enthusiasts but I stop short at taking mine for a romantic meal...
> 
> *coat got*


 :groan:


----------



## Suhanko

scottswatches said:


> Suhanko said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scottswatches said:
> 
> 
> 
> to see if it is gold, look for marks either saying 375 or 9ct for nine carat gold, or .750 for 18ct. If the case back is gold then the watch probably is, if it is stainless steel it is likely to be gold plated
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, thanks for answer.
> 
> I couldn't found marks, just a inscription saying "antimagnetic" in their display.
> 
> Is there some place which I can found information about White Star watches?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> have you tried searching The Watch Forum?
> 
> http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=75926&hl=%2Bwhite+%2Bstar&fromsearch=1
> 
> :rltb:
Click to expand...

I thank you. This trace wasn't useful unfortunately, because I found them before :-(

I feel really sad. This watch can be 100 years old, can be gold and I have none information about!

I did like our friend, yesterday I wrote to website in discuss, but the same as him, I got no answer.

But anyway, I thank you very much.


----------



## Arunita Datta

I have an Arcadia, 18k gold ladies' watch. The case no. is 48830 and the movement no. is 651. Can anyone help me with the probable date of manufacture of this watch?

I have an Omega also, 18k gold, pocket watch. The case no. is 5186431, I don't know the movement no. as I have not had the back cover opened yet. Can anyone guide me on the probable date of manufacture of this too?


----------



## Arunita Datta

I just opened my OMEGA back cover to see the movement no. Its 4639389. As per the list given in this thread, it should be a 1910 model. Am I correct?


----------



## Arunita Datta

Arunita Datta said:


> I just opened my OMEGA back cover to see the movement no. Its 4639389. As per the list given in this thread, it should be a 1910 model. Am I correct?


----------



## Arunita Datta

Arunita Datta said:


> I have an Arcadia, 18k gold ladies' watch. The case no. is 48830 and the movement no. is 651. Can anyone help me with the probable date of manufacture of this watch?
> 
> I have an Omega also, 18k gold, pocket watch. The case no. is 5186431, I don't know the movement no. as I have not had the back cover opened yet. Can anyone guide me on the probable date of manufacture of this too?


----------



## Arunita Datta

I have an OMEGA 18k gold pocket watch. Movement No. is 4639389 and case no. is 5186431. Is the date of manufacture around 1910? Is the case manufacture date around 1913 to 1918?


----------



## seamaster1970

If anyone has information for PAVEL BURE?

thanks


----------



## scottswatches

I've finally discovered how to date some Glashutte watches!

The Cal 74 and cal 75 (automatic 26 jewels) were made from 1965 up to 1980 and feature in a range of models from Glashutte. They made millions of them!

Each movement has three digits, the first two of which are the year and the last one is the quarter. So if the movement is stamped 763 it is from the third quarter of 1976.

Hope this helps someone else.


----------



## scottswatches

New IWC resource :yes:

http://moeb.on-rev.com/dyIWC/dyIWC.irev


----------



## setover

Wow!Great thread,thanks, it's very clear.. :thumbup:


----------



## Will Fly

Web page for a Longines check:

http://www.vintagewatchresources.com/year_identifier.php

And a web page for American pocket (and wrist) watch movements:

http://pocketwatchdatabase.com/


----------



## martinzx

scottswatches said:


> I've finally discovered how to date some Glashutte watches!
> 
> The Cal 74 and cal 75 (automatic 26 jewels) were made from 1965 up to 1980 and feature in a range of models from Glashutte. They made millions of them!
> 
> Each movement has three digits, the first two of which are the year and the last one is the quarter. So if the movement is stamped 763 it is from the third quarter of 1976.
> 
> Hope this helps someone else.


Great help!

Cheers Martin


----------



## scottswatches

Agent orange said:


> Rolex
> 
> Rolexs are dated by a serial number which is found between the lugs, at the bottom of the case (6 o-clock). The serial number denotes the actual manufacture date. Date of market introduction may vary, expect to add 6 to 18 months.
> 
> Here's a list of their oyster model serial numbers and corresponding years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't get all technical on me as I know diddly squat about Rolex :blink:
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


there is some confusion on Rolex numbers. A number of websites including these http://qualitytyme.net/pages/numbers.html and https://www.minus4plus6.com/numbers.htm#model show that Rolex restarted the numbering system in the 1950's I have this watch that I thought was later but the numbers said it was 1951. Further research show that serial number 74**** could be 1951 or 1961 - and 1961 fits better in terms of the styling to me. And double checking Ranfft the 1215 movement fitted didn't start production until 1954. So I have been a decade out! :nono:


----------



## michellecanon8

Great! Searching for this Rolex 5513 but I couldn't really search for it since I don't know which year it was. Apparently, it's 1966 thanks to this trend


----------



## Markl

Mechanical Alarm said:


> Does anybody have a system for dating Lecoultre's??
> 
> I have heard you can write them directly and they are quite helpful but it is a watch I am looking to buy and I can't obtain any pix for it, etc. Just a serial # and case #.
> 
> Thanx!


 Hi

I'm also trying to date a JLC - a Memovox . I'm guessing 1960-65 but would like to know exactly. I believe you can contact JLC direct but there is a charge!

Mark


----------



## Mechanical Alarm

Markl said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm also trying to date a JLC - a Memovox . I'm guessing 1960-65 but would like to know exactly. I believe you can contact JLC direct but there is a charge!
> 
> Mark


 So, someone must be privy to this data?!


----------



## scottswatches

Mechanical Alarm said:


> So, someone must be privy to this data?!


 Oh they do. Omega used to publish all the dates, allowing free access on the website. Now it is 120CHF (unless you read this thread!). Same charge with Girard Perregaux. It's a shame, as I would be buying more JLC/GP watches if I knew how to date them.

robbing barstewards don't make my job any easier!

@Markl post a pic of the watch, and hopefully the movement too, and I might be able to narrow it down


----------



## Markl

Markl said:


> Hi
> 
> I'm also trying to date a JLC - a Memovox . I'm guessing 1960-65 but would like to know exactly. I believe you can contact JLC direct but there is a charge!
> 
> Mark


----------



## scottswatches

Sorry I can't help on the JLC, but a very nice watch

I've found something for *Eterna* - notice the error factor is far higher than most years production at +/- 200,000

*
+ - 200 000
*

*
Bei den gelben Seriennummern handelt es sich um Seriennummern von Uhren die mit Widmung und Jahreszahl versehen sind.

*

*

1894 630 000 626 752 IXL
*

*
1900 1 045 000 
1901 1 090 000
1902 1 135 000
1903 1 180 000
1904 1 225 000
1905 1 270 000
1906 1 315 000
1907 1 360 000
1908 1 405 000
1909 1 450 000
1910 1 500 000 1 556 288 
1911 1 550 000
1912 1 600 000
1913 1 650 000 1 663 980
1914 1 700 000
1915 1 750 000 1 914 868
1916 1 800 000
1917 1 850 000
1918 1 890 000
1919 1 930 000
1920 1 970 000
1921 2 010 000
1922 2 050 000
1923 2 090 000
1924 2 130 000
1925 2 170 000
1926 2 210 000
1927 2 250 000
1928 2 290 000
1929 2 330 000
1930 2 370 000
1931 2 410 000
1932 2 450 000
1933 2 500 000 2 451 950
1934 2 550 000
1935 2 600 000
1936 2 650 000
1937 2 700 000 2 740 007
1938 2 750 000
1939 2 800 000
1940 2 850 000
1941 2 900 000
1942 2 950 000
1943 3 000 000
1944 3 050 000
1945 3 100 000
1946 3 170 000
1947 3 240 000
1948 3 310 000
1949 3 380 000
1950 3 450 000
1951 3 520 000
1952 3 600 000
1953 3 700 000
1954 3 800 000
1955 3 900 000
1956 4 000 000
1957 4 100 000 4 059 XXX
1958 4 200 000
1959 4 300 000
1960 4 400 000
1961 4 500 000
1962 4 650 000
1963 4 800 000
1964 4 950 000
1965 5 100 000
1966 5 250 000
1967 5 400 000
1968 5 550 000
1969 5 700 000
1970 5 850 000
1971 6 000 000 5 909 304 
1972 6 100 000
1973 6 200 000
1974 6 300 000
*


----------



## bobbee

Suhanko said:


> I thank you. This trace wasn't useful unfortunately, because I found them before :-(
> 
> I feel really sad. This watch can be 100 years old, can be gold and I have none information about!
> 
> I did like our friend, yesterday I wrote to website in discuss, but the same as him, I got no answer.
> 
> But anyway, I thank you very much.


 Mikrolisk is great for finding watch names you may not have heard of.

http://www.mikrolisk.de/

Regarding the "White Star" watch you showed, here is the info from Mikrolisk:

http://www.mikrolisk.de/show.php?site=280&suchwort=white star&searchMode=exact&searchWhere=trademark#sucheMarker

It was made by Weiss and co./ Henri Weiss.


----------



## LeeBlueBear12345

aroma said:


> Dating of the â€˜English-madeâ€™ Smiths watches
> 
> Unfortunately there is no published â€˜systemâ€™ for dating Smiths watches but if the case is solid gold then itâ€™s probably best to use the hallmark date letter â€" this holds true throughout the production period 1947 to 1970. Beware that many Smiths watches have been re-cased and sometimes movements have been repaired with cannibalized parts so it is all a bit of a minefield. However, the following observations should help in ascertaining the date of production:-
> 
> 
> 
> Production started in 1947 and the early ones had just â€˜Smithsâ€™ on the dial. The movements were nickel not gilt, were sub-second and were marked with an engraved serial number which initially had NO PREFIX LETTER
> 
> 
> 1948 saw the introduction of the prefix letter to the serial number â€" starting with A but within the year a â€˜Bâ€™ and finally a â€˜Câ€™ was used.
> 
> 
> 1952 â€" DeLuxe appears on the dial â€" movement serials still have â€˜Câ€™ prefix which continues sequentially until 1959. There is quite a â€˜spreadâ€™ in the serial numbers c.f. dates suggesting that some movements and/or cases were stored for a significant time before use.
> 
> 
> 1953 â€" the 17J centre second movement arrives â€" usually the movement serial is prefixed with a JC but the serial number is in the same sequence as the sub second range
> 
> 
> 1958 â€" Shockproofing is introduced to the DeLuxe range but initially the dials do not state this. The top-of-the-range 18J was Shockproofed in 1955 as was the cheap â€˜pin-palletâ€™ range.
> 
> 
> 1958 â€" the 19J Imperial calibre 0104 is introduced â€" no serial numbers are ever used on the Imperials â€" just the calibre and batch number â€" sometimes. Imperials are always shockproof.
> 
> 
> 1959 â€" DeLuxe dials now marked â€˜SHOCKPROOFâ€™
> 
> 
> 1959/60 â€" DeLuxe movements are no longer serial numbered â€" just the batch number is used. The last serial number is ~C46xxxx
> 
> 
> 1959 â€" The Astral is introduced â€" no serial numbers are used on Astral movements â€" just the batch number. Astrals are always shockproof.
> 
> 
> 1961 - The 25J Automatic movement (based on the Imperial) is introduced
> 
> 
> 1960 to1962 - Imperial, DeLuxe and Astral continue with just batch numbers on movements and are difficult to date at this point.
> 
> 
> 1963 â€" Some DeLuxe and all Imperial models are rebranded as EVEREST. Rebranded Imperials have a calibre number 0104E or 10104E. Astral range stays as it was. The 25J Automatic calibre number is 10144G.
> 
> 
> 1964 â€" Astral dial script is changed to â€˜SMITHS ASTRALâ€™ in line. Previously the â€˜Astralâ€™ was printed in italics below the name â€˜Smithsâ€™.
> 
> 
> 1964 â€" The old 27CS 17J centre second movement is modified to become a â€˜slimlineâ€™ movement in line with the then current trend for slim watches. This slimline movement becomes THE standard for all the centre second models.
> 
> 
> 1965 â€" The calibre number is introduced to all watches â€" stamped next to the balance.
> 
> 
> 60461E is the 15J sub second
> 
> 60464E is the slimline 17J centre second
> 
> 60465E is the slimline 17J centre second with calendar
> 
> 
> 
> 1967 â€" 60466E (slimline 17J centre second with hacking) is introduced. Smiths GS4701 Military Watches appear and use this movement
> 
> 
> 1968 â€" 60474E (slimline 17J centre second with calendar â€" maybe hacking as well) is introduced for the CM4501 Astral Diver. The 60467E (calendar) is also introduced but I donâ€™t know the difference between this and the earlier 60465E calendar. The 60471E 16J sub second is introduced
> 
> 
> If you use the hallmark date letter from gold cased DeLuxe watches as the dating medium, it is possible to get some idea of the serial numbering sequence (please bear in mind that there is sometimes a significant overlap as watch movements and cases were stored before use) â€" anyway it goes something like this:-
> 
> Pre 1948 â€" no prefix letter used with serial number
> 
> 1948 â€" A, B and C prefix used.
> 
> Year serial number
> 
> 1947/48 C794
> 
> 1948/49 C32208
> 
> 1950/51 C53225
> 
> 1951/52 C106845
> 
> 1952/53 C143852
> 
> 1953/54
> 
> 1954/55 C204851
> 
> 1955/56 C253061
> 
> 1956/57 C340318
> 
> 1957/58 C356042
> 
> 1958/59 C408323
> 
> 1959/60 C445920
> 
> This is just a 'first attempt' at dating Smiths and hopefully as more information becomes available it will become more accurate


 Hi,

I am looking for any assistance dating a Smiths pocket watch, inherited from my great grandfather.

It is a brass looking piece, stating "Smiths Empire", in the upper of the dial with "Made in Gt Britain" around the lower edge of the dial below the second dial, with Roman numerals 1-12.

The reverse pattern resembles a series of wavy concentric circles, though I haven tried removing the back cover as yet for fear of doing any damage.

It is attached to a chain stamped "JC Graves Sheffield", with assay marks I understand to denote Birmingham (anchor), 1902/1902 seems to tally in dates with the date stamp"c", and there is a lion mark on there too. Also there appears to be the initial "B.L" stamped below this.

I seem to remember this watch and chain from my childhood being silver in colour, I guess this has just become tarnished to a brass colour over the last 40 years?

If so, how can this best be restored?

If anyone has the expertise to assist me directly, or point me in the right direction of useful source info, it would be greatly appreciated.

I do have photos, just cant seem to paste them into this message???

Many thanks in advance,

Lee


----------



## Galimbe

My caliber of Minerva I asked in Monblan and thay in 1week answered.

Intresting for me, that Hy.Moser said cant answer about year of movement, because its was lost (data and archive).


----------



## Karrusel

Galimbe said:


> My caliber of Minerva I asked in Monblan and thay in 1week answered.
> 
> Intresting for me, that Hy.Moser said cant answer about year of movement, because its was lost (data and archive).


 It's not unusual for some of the historic watch brands to have incomplete records, surprisingly some of the high end marque's have sketchy records.

Some of these are quietly encouraging owners of vintage timepieces to contact them (email with pic's first) so as to build up a data base, records, timeline of previous production.

They may even invite you to send your timepiece to them for analysis, you may be pleasantly surprised what evolves from this.

Having said that, they are tuned in to sorting out the just curious & spurious.

It all assists in maintaining their heritage & patrimony.

Alan


----------



## scottswatches

Galimbe said:


> My caliber of Minerva I asked in Monblan and thay in 1week answered.
> 
> Intresting for me, that Hy.Moser said cant answer about year of movement, because its was lost (data and archive).


 That's not unusual sadly. Archives got destroyed as companies changed hands, before the used wristwatch market took off and they all started playing on their heritage for marketing!


----------



## Galimbe

Yes, that is right.
The greatest difficulty in watchs and mechanisms prior to the beginning of the 20th century. For example Saltzman.


----------



## icheletee

Agent orange said:


> Lots of people ask about dating watches so I thought it might be a good idea to share our collective information.
> 
> I'll start the ball rolling with dating Omegas. Essentially all Omegas are dated by their movement number, obviously you'll need access the movement to find this. Once that's done here's a list of movement numbers with corresponding years, I hope this is legible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although this is a good system and extremely useful it's not infallible or 100% accurate. Lots of Omegas are put togethers or frankenwatches especially the more iconic models. For example a vintage SM300 may well have a cal.565 from a much less valuable model like a Geneve. If your movement has a R next to the number it means it's a service replacement movement (thanks to JonW for that snippet of info).
> 
> Hope this helps and if anyone want to share dating information from other manufacturers please add to this post.
> 
> I've got a scan of a German Tissot dating sheet somewhere, if I can find it I'll translate, type it out and post later.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary
> 
> P.S. Mods do you think this might be worth pinning? Hopefully it'll grow into a useful resource for many.


 Your table helped me to figure out the year of my Omega...


----------



## L_G246

Hi I was wondering if anyone could help me. I have an old Hamilton watch that I can't identify. It looks identical to the 61001-3 but the serial number is 61001-4 and it's gold plated (i think). Searching that number always results in the seaveiw 3 which is the wrong watch. Any help appreciated.


----------



## scottswatches

L_G246 said:


> Hi I was wondering if anyone could help me. I have an old Hamilton watch that I can't identify. It looks identical to the 61001-3 but the serial number is 61001-4 and it's gold plated (i think). Searching that number always results in the seaveiw 3 which is the wrong watch. Any help appreciated.


 I might be able to help, but do you have some pictures you can show please?


----------



## Mr Wright

Agent orange said:


> Lots of people ask about dating watches so I thought it might be a good idea to share our collective information.
> 
> I'll start the ball rolling with dating Omegas. Essentially all Omegas are dated by their movement number, obviously you'll need access the movement to find this. Once that's done here's a list of movement numbers with corresponding years, I hope this is legible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although this is a good system and extremely useful it's not infallible or 100% accurate. Lots of Omegas are put togethers or frankenwatches especially the more iconic models. For example a vintage SM300 may well have a cal.565 from a much less valuable model like a Geneve. If your movement has a R next to the number it means it's a service replacement movement (thanks to JonW for that snippet of info).
> 
> Hope this helps and if anyone want to share dating information from other manufacturers please add to this post.


 Why can't I see 1953 ????



> I've got a scan of a German Tissot dating sheet somewhere, if I can find it I'll translate, type it out and post later.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary
> 
> P.S. Mods do you think this might be worth pinning? Hopefully it'll grow into a useful resource for many.


----------



## martinzx

The dating calendar is not infallible it is a guide.

Whatever movement number correlates to the above table, it will give you a date as to when that calibre was made.

You will notice the increments per year are in millions, when they were less than that number sold, the table join the years.

You can write to Omega and for £60 or even more (it used to be free) they will give you written information.

Cheers Martin


----------



## scottswatches

Nice result to help date Oris watches, taken from their official 100 years book so should be accurate


----------



## Temo

Hi all,

this watch belonged to my grand grand mother and gave it to my grand mother. My grand mother gave it to my wife. I want to find some information about it.


----------



## scottswatches

Camy were first registered in 1923, but that looks later. 1960s at a very vague guess


----------



## Primaxuk

Very interesting Thread


----------



## proby01

@Agent orange Hi there, any luch with the post 1967 Universal Geneve dating matrixes ?

Thanks

Roby

Hi Universal Geneve lovers,
this prestigious brand shows as available matrixes with serial numbers only up to 1967, up to serial number 2.550.000.
However UG has made after that still many lovely watches, most with serial number on the back.
I just acquired an other one that I am having hard time idenfiying the aproximate manufacturing date which is what I was able to do with other 5 UG' s I have, all pre 1967.
Anybody has access to UG resources with tables post 1967 ?
My new purchase has serial number : 3.444.110
PS : I will have the watch opened (don' t know how to open this one) next week so with the cal number I may have some rough idea, in the mean time I just ask.

thanks in advance for any help

regards

Roby


----------



## edantes54

Hello--I am new to this forum and have a question in search of an answer. As to Atlantic Worldmaster watches with 21 jewel Unitas 6300N movements is it possible to date them by the serial number etched into the caseback and , if so, can someone enlighten me on how the numbers correspond to year of manufacture. I can find very little information on these watches--Many thanks in advance


----------



## dropmyload

Hello, very helpful for a noob like me, thank you.


----------



## Steveibiza

Does anyone have any information about dating Accurist watches? I've looked online any can't find much. I've just bought what I think is a fairly early one, with the italic script logo and 21 jewels, antimagnetic and Swiss written on the face

It seems to have changed over the years to the modern one

Any help would be appreciated.



gimli said:


> Maybe this place ? https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/forum/22-electric-electronic-watches/
> 
> Anyway, some pics would be nice.
> 
> Movements come with dates at certain positions specifically so no you can't adjust them. At most you can get a new date/day wheel that is correct for the position that you want (for the dial's hole basically)
> 
> Some movements come with date at 3 o'clock, some with date at 4 o'clock... It's all about the angles that the numbers/letters line up.


 Thanks. I wasn't sure as it says early electric watches.

Thanks for the information, is it possible to take the day\date wheels from the old movement and swap them to the new one? Apart from that they're identical.


----------



## gimli

Steveibiza said:


> Does anyone have any information about dating Accurist watches? I've looked online any can't find much. I've just bought what I think is a fairly early one, with the italic script logo and 21 jewels, antimagnetic and Swiss written on the face
> 
> It seems to have changed over the years to the modern one
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks. I wasn't sure as it says early electric watches.
> 
> Thanks for the information, is it possible to take the day\date wheels from the old movement and swap them to the new one? Apart from that they're identical.


 Yes if the movements are identical, you can take the wheels from the old one and "transplant" them onto the new one.


----------



## Nigelp

scottswatches said:


> Nice result to help date Oris watches, taken from their official 100 years book so should be accurate


 amazing scott that means oris were still turning out the manual wind 702 between 80 and 85, in an age of quartz must have been an anomaly.


----------



## Eaglegale

Moving away from the posh stuff to more workaday watches...

I seem to have accumulated a few KERED watches, but am having trouble putting a date on them. The Seiko-based ones are easy, but the others are harder.

As far as I can tell Louis Braham Ltd sold them from the early 50's to the late 60's, but I can't find any resources to help pin down what was sold when. Does anyone here have any catalogues or similar documents that might help? The script on the dial is not consistent. Some have a curly script Kered logo; some have a straighter script Kered logo. Would I be correct in assuming that the curly one is earlier? Also is there a date difference between a French-made watch having "Made in France" on the dial and one having "Foreign" on the dial?

Any help you can offer would be much appreciated.

Here are a couple of examples:










Curly script logo with Made in France.










Straight script logo with "Foreign"


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## scottswatches

Eaglegale said:


> Moving away from the posh stuff to more workaday watches...
> 
> I seem to have accumulated a few KERED watches, but am having trouble putting a date on them. The Seiko-based ones are easy, but the others are harder.
> 
> As far as I can tell Louis Braham Ltd sold them from the early 50's to the late 60's, but I can't find any resources to help pin down what was sold when. Does anyone here have any catalogues or similar documents that might help? The script on the dial is not consistent. Some have a curly script Kered logo; some have a straighter script Kered logo. Would I be correct in assuming that the curly one is earlier? Also is there a date difference between a French-made watch having "Made in France" on the dial and one having "Foreign" on the dial?
> 
> Any help you can offer would be much appreciated.
> 
> Here are a couple of examples:
> 
> 
> 
> Curly script logo with Made in France.
> 
> 
> 
> Straight script logo with "Foreign"


 I think this brand is like Enicar, which was the designers name Racine backwards. Anyone know a watchmaker called Derek?


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## Eaglegale

scottswatches said:


> I think this brand is like Enicar, which was the designers name Racine backwards. Anyone know a watchmaker called Derek?


 Not watchmaker called Derek but a watch wholesaler with a brother called Derrick (as far as I can tell). Loius Braham's brother was called Derrick Braham. Derrick watches and Derrick B watches are named after him, and Kered is Derek backwards; Kcirred doesn't really work!


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## spinynorman

scottswatches said:


> I think this brand is like Enicar, which was the designers name Racine backwards. Anyone know a watchmaker called Derek?


 Louis Braham Ltd was main agent for Newmark, Elbee, Hourmaster and Horsham. They also sold watches branded Kered and Derrick, Derrick being Louis's brother I believe. Louis Braham married Louis Newmark's daughter. There's several threads here and elsewhere from which you can piece the story together.

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/108584-kered-automatic/&tab=comments#comment-1133725

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/74036-information-needed-on-this-french-made-services/&tab=comments#comment-781197

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/newmark-watch-co-info-please-612406.html

A 1940s (I think) Kered with Cupillard 233 I used to own. I have another waiting for me to get round to fixing it.



1960s Braham Advert





Eaglegale said:


> Not watchmaker called Derek but a watch wholesaler with a brother called Derrick (as far as I can tell). Loius Braham's brother was called Derrick Braham. Derrick watches and Derrick B watches are named after him, and Kered is Derek backwards; Kcirred doesn't really work!


 Beat me to it, just.


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## Eaglegale

spinynorman said:


> Louis Braham Ltd was main agent for Newmark, Elbee, Hourmaster and Horsham. They also sold watches branded Kered and Derrick, Derrick being Louis's brother I believe. Louis Braham married Louis Newmark's daughter. There's several threads here and elsewhere from which you can piece the story together.
> 
> https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/108584-kered-automatic/&tab=comments#comment-1133725
> 
> https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/74036-information-needed-on-this-french-made-services/&tab=comments#comment-781197
> 
> https://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/newmark-watch-co-info-please-612406.html


 Thanks Spinynorman.

I've seen that info and it's useful for getting to grips with the company, but it's dates of the watches I can't find anything about. Perhaps it all got binned when the company died?



spinynorman said:


> I've got a Kered with a very similar dial but a 17 jewel movement, and centre seconds. It's got an inscription on the back that's dated Nov 1958. I assume it was new when it was given to the recipient. The numerals font is exactly the same as your watch.


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## spinynorman

Eaglegale said:


> I've got a Kered with a very similar dial but a 17 jewel movement, and centre seconds. It's got an inscription on the back that's dated Nov 1958. I assume it was new when it was given to the recipient. The numerals font is exactly the same as your watch.


 That's useful, inscriptions are generally good guides to the age of a watch. The other thing that helps is the movement. My Cupillard 233 didn't have shock protection, which suggests it was an early version. Have you looked in the back of your watches and identified the movements?


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## Eaglegale

Thanks spinynorman, I'll take a look at the movements.


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## Eaglegale

My 15-jewel movements are not shock-protected. The 17-jewel watches are, so I'm guessing that makes them later?


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## spinynorman

Eaglegale said:


> My 15-jewel movements are not shock-protected. The 17-jewel watches are, so I'm guessing that makes them later?


 Probably. But what are they? I'm guessing not all Cupillard.


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## Eaglegale

My 1958 17-jewel is, as far as I can see, a non-shock protected Cupillard 256.

I'll go through them and try to ID all of the movements.


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## spinynorman

Eaglegale said:


> My 1958 17-jewel is, as far as I can see, a non-shock protected Cupillard 256.
> 
> I'll go through them and try to ID all of the movements.


 According to Ranfft, the Cupillard 256 dates to around 1960, so 1958 looks like a good date for that watch. There's several Louis Braham adverts on sites like Adbooma, which helpfully dates them. Most of the adverts just have Kered in a list of names, but one from 1954 shows the Kered logo, with block capitals and underlining as on the second watch you posted and the one I had. So we know that wordmark was being used then. The earlier adverts I've found, from 1949 and 1952 mention "Derrick", but not "Kered", but that may not mean anything. However, I'm now doubting the 1940s dating on the watch I had.


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## Eaglegale

Here's a non-Cupillard movement. I'm very much a beginner with all this, and it has taken quite a bit of searching to determine what movement this is.

It's a DuRoWe 1162 badged as a Stowa and fitted to a Kered watch. 17jewels dot info reckons it was in production from 1956 to 1964. I'll keep on with my research...


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## spinynorman

Eaglegale said:


> 17jewels dot info reckons it was in production from 1956 to 1964.


 Interesting, first Kered I've seen with a German movement.

When I was researching Allaine, I found a script wordmark registered in 1941, and then a block capitals one registered much later. It would be interesting to date the script Kered you posted, whether or not it fits the same pattern.


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## Eaglegale

Perhaps this Derrick watch might help with dating? Looks more 40's than 50's to me. It's what I would call a "boy's watch" as it is quite small. Still managed to squeeze in a subsidiary seconds hand though. I don't know anything about the movement other than it's Swiss and 15-jewels. Nice bit of engine turning inside the case back.



















Derrick branded movement.


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## spinynorman

Eaglegale said:


> Perhaps this Derrick watch might help with dating? Looks more 40's than 50's to me. It's what I would call a "boy's watch" as it is quite small. Still managed to squeeze in a subsidiary seconds hand though. I don't know anything about the movement other than it's Swiss and 15-jewels. Nice bit of engine turning inside the case back.


 Could it be an FHF 186?

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&FHF_186

Came across a nicely dated Kered on ebay.










The one I had was small, but I think a lot of them were in that period.


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## Eaglegale

spinynorman said:


> Interesting, first Kered I've seen with a German movement.
> 
> When I was researching Allaine, I found a script wordmark registered in 1941, and then a block capitals one registered much later. It would be interesting to date the script Kered you posted, whether or not it fits the same pattern.


 You wait for ages for a German movement Kered to turn up then two turn up together! This is, as far as I can tell, the automatic version of the HB111. The automatic HB112 on Ranftt is 25 jewels not 17, so I reckon it's an early HB112 from the early 60's. Not running unfortunately.




























Thanks for the info on the Swiss "boys" watch.


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## KieranB29

Hey i was just wondering if anyone could help me date a Rotary elegance watch i purchased recently.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Eaglegale

Form the London Gazette 27 April 1948

NOTICE is hereby given that by a deed poll dated the 21st February 1948 and enrolled in the. Supreme Court of Judicature on the 23rd February 1948

I,LOUIS BRAHAM of r8 Dunstan Road, Golders Green, London, N.W 11, a naturalised British subject, abandoned the surname of Abramovitcb and adopted, the surname of Braham -Dated 22nd day of April, 1948 (0311)

LOUIS BRAHAM

I wonder if it's the same Louis Braham as the one of Kered fame?


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## spinynorman

Eaglegale said:


> Form the London Gazette 27 April 1948
> 
> NOTICE is hereby given that by a deed poll dated the 21st February 1948 and enrolled in the. Supreme Court of Judicature on the 23rd February 1948
> 
> I,LOUIS BRAHAM of r8 Dunstan Road, Golders Green, London, N.W 11, a naturalised British subject, abandoned the surname of Abramovitcb and adopted, the surname of Braham -Dated 22nd day of April, 1948 (0311)
> 
> LOUIS BRAHAM
> 
> I wonder if it's the same Louis Braham as the one of Kered fame?


 Probably. I'm sure I've read that somewhere else.


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## tick-tock-tittle-tattle

Louis Braham of Hour Master watches, brother in law of the makers of Newmark watches?


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## junefire

Hello everyone, I hope it's okay to post and ask for a dating on a watch. Because I know absolutely nothing about watches.

So I inherited this Omega Automatic Seamaster Big Seahorse from my grandad when he passed away. At least I think it's the Big Seahorse but I'm not sure.

I would like to open it to find out the date myself but I'm afraid I'll damage it.

I post a link to Imgur with pictures and a short video on how it looks like.

I would like to find out as much as possible about it. For example if it's solid gold, the date, the exact name and so on.

Can someone help me with this? I understand if it's not possible without opening it, so if that's what it takes, maybe someone can guide me in the correct way for that. I really don't want to damage the watch in any way.

Here's the pictures and a short video clip:


http://imgur.com/rS4gCxY


Take care everyone!

Sincerely,

Christian


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## scottswatches

junefire said:


> Hello everyone, I hope it's okay to post and ask for a dating on a watch. Because I know absolutely nothing about watches.
> 
> So I inherited this Omega Automatic Seamaster Big Seahorse from my grandad when he passed away. At least I think it's the Big Seahorse but I'm not sure.
> 
> I would like to open it to find out the date myself but I'm afraid I'll damage it.
> 
> I post a link to Imgur with pictures and a short video on how it looks like.
> 
> I would like to find out as much as possible about it. For example if it's solid gold, the date, the exact name and so on.
> 
> Can someone help me with this? I understand if it's not possible without opening it, so if that's what it takes, maybe someone can guide me in the correct way for that. I really don't want to damage the watch in any way.
> 
> Here's the pictures and a short video clip:
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/rS4gCxY
> 
> 
> Take care everyone!
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Christian


 it is just called an Omega Seamaster. Looks to be late fifties to early 60's, and with a stainless steel back it will not be solid gold. It could be gold capped, but the back of the lugs will be able to show that - if they are steel with a gold edge it is gold capped, if they are gold too it will be gold plated.

Don't take the back off unless you are experienced, as you are likely to damage a nice watch. The movement will have a serial number and that can give you the date the watch was made, and the inside of the case back should have a model number in


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## Eaglegale

Bought another Kered watch from Ebay. The perils of being called Derek I suppose...

This one is useful for dating as it's almost the exact same watch as is featured in a 1962 advert that's for sale. The only difference seems to be the word ANTIMAGNETIC on the top of the subsidiary seconds dial. I'm assuming that this means it's a bit later than the one in the advert? It would be useful to know just how long this model was made for of course.

Sadly, it only runs for a few seconds.


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## jimn3784

Agent orange said:


> Rolex
> 
> Rolexs are dated by a serial number which is found between the lugs, at the bottom of the case (6 o-clock). The serial number denotes the actual manufacture date. Date of market introduction may vary, expect to add 6 to 18 months.
> 
> Here's a list of their oyster model serial numbers and corresponding years.
> 
> http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g38/GaryLittle/Bits%20and%20pieces/Rolexproductioncalendar.png
> 
> Please don't get all technical on me as I know diddly squat about Rolex :blink:
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


 very interesting! thanks for sharing


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## macrys

Hi everyone. I have a Roamer watch and I don't know is it genuine or fake. I also don't know enything about the production date. I would like to ask you for help to verify it. I post links to some pictures of my watch.

https://ibb.co/yWLrNVh
https://ibb.co/RSxRC8G
https://ibb.co/s5R58JD
https://ibb.co/ysVRDpQ
https://ibb.co/q1ThKKS

Thanks for your help.
Best regards
macrys


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## scottswatches

macrys said:


> Hi everyone. I have a Roamer watch and I don't know is it genuine or fake. I also don't know enything about the production date. I would like to ask you for help to verify it. I post links to some pictures of my watch.
> 
> https://ibb.co/yWLrNVh
> https://ibb.co/RSxRC8G
> https://ibb.co/s5R58JD
> https://ibb.co/ysVRDpQ
> https://ibb.co/q1ThKKS
> 
> Thanks for your help.
> Best regards
> macrys


 Looks genuine to me. The site to research that on is this one

http://roamer-watches.info/


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## macrys

scottswatches said:


> Looks genuine to me. The site to research that on is this one
> 
> http://roamer-watches.info/


 Hi,
many thanks to you for your help. I've found my watch at this site and I think that it can be one of this models:

http://roamer-watches.info/features/MST352/1/gallery.shtml#_self

http://roamer-watches.info/features/MST264/1/gallery.shtml#_self

Best regards,
macrys


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## MissyMJ

Hi. I have a working Baldwin jeweler San Francisco pocket watch. In the 1800s they pressed gold coins. However cannot find any info on the watch. I do not know how to open to see movement. Any info would be appreciative s. Thank u.


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## spinynorman

MissyMJ said:


> Hi. I have a working Baldwin jeweler San Francisco pocket watch. In the 1800s they pressed gold coins. However cannot find any info on the watch. I do not know how to open to see movement. Any info would be appreciative s. Thank u.


 You already asked this. Without at least a picture of the face, there's really nothing anyone can do to help you.

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/149591-baldwin-jeweler-company-san-francisco-pocket-watch/&tab=comments#comment-1571438

Please just post photos in that thread of the parts of the watch you can see - back, front, sides - then someone should be able to tell you how to get into it.


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