# Seiko And Rolex



## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

I don't want to start another debate where everyone falls out like on the other forum(s), I just would like to know why these brands when discussed together cause rivalry? Sorry that is the best way I can think of to put it. Now just in advance I've had a pasting on another forum and don't want another. Its a genuine question I just want to ask why it happens. Kind Regards. N


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## mattbeef (Jul 17, 2008)

I think its because Seiko arent seen to be as good as Rolex and IMO they should be.

Both have amazing heritage and both produce some really high end pieces. I think people tend to get upset as Seiko do both ends of the scale, and at the top end they wont pay to have their movements COSC certified


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## Thomasr (Oct 11, 2011)

maybe its the argument between rolex and grand seiko? i think as brands they are pretty far apart in terms of seiko and rolex tool watches, I've had more rolexes than decent seikos.

Maybe people are vexed by the notion for the comparison because they don't want there 5k Rolex being compared to a Â£300 Japanese watch, or maybe they are over sensitive, i personally like when the Swiss watch industry has to step up its game to keep up!

BTW: i have serviced both Rolex and Seiko watches, there were rather more plastic parts in the seiko, (even the autos)


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## Thomasr (Oct 11, 2011)

that said, here is a modified seiko movement, tag claimed it as there own but were forced to concede it was in fact seikos


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## PC-Magician (Apr 29, 2013)

Sticks and stones mate, dont let that bother you.

This forum is packed with good guys who are open to friendly debate and banter, as to your question sorry not got a clue but I have to declare I am not a fan of Rolex on the whole as I think they are overpriced.

Just my opinion, but I must also say some do look fantastic.


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## SIB (Sep 9, 2007)

Grand Seiko and Rolex tends to cause a stir in "other places". Many will say the Japanese company are inferior to the Swiss however having been lucky enough to own a few models from each I have to say I haven't found that to be the case. Some will argue to the death it's "just a Seiko" but it's in a different league to the normal mass produced models in terms of fit and finishing.


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## apm101 (Jun 4, 2011)

This has run and run on TZ, certainly. There are key ringleaders on each side, who rarely miss an opportunity to snipe at each other!

FWIW, I like both. Never had a GS, but I can certainly see what an achievement they represent.


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## mcb2007 (Dec 12, 2013)

Never caused me a problem I have both brands and get equal enjoyment from both


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## badgersdad (May 16, 2014)

mattbeef said:


> I think people tend to get upset as Seiko do both ends of the scale, and at the top end they wont pay to have their movements COSC certified


can Japanese watches get cosc certified?

I love a seiko and i doubt I'll ever own a rolex. If I had the cash for a rolex or a grand seiko, I'd almost certainly buy something else.


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## Trigger (Sep 16, 2011)

If I buy a GS auto one day, and I might, I will see it as equal to any Rolex I've had. In terms of desirability. I'm really not that obsessed that I would have to compare them otherwise. They are different in every way apart from both being top quality. Arguing about it isn't going to magically improve which ever is one's preference.


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## Faze (Mar 1, 2013)

Personally I can't afford a Rolex.

If for some reason or other I could afford a Rolex, I'd buy 45 Seikos :tongue2:


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## PhilM (Nov 5, 2004)

No conflict here, own both manufactures watches and happy to switch between them both without even thinking about it.

They both make great watches IMO


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## Rampant (Nov 27, 2012)

The simple answer to your question is as follows:

People can be dicks.

To flesh that notion out a bit... People can be dicks for many reasons. Amongst these reasons are snobbery and superiority. "My stuff is better than your stuff" implies that "I am superior".

The Seiko versus Rolex comparison lends itself very well to the potential of such behaviour.

On the one hand we have Rolex - a company with a rich *Swiss* heritage; which manufactures the vast majority of its own parts for movements; which assembles all movements in Switzerland, by hand; and which sells *only* expensive watches.

The fact that Seiko has an equally rich heritage (albeit not based in the fabled Switzerland!), has in house movements to rival those of Rolex and assembled with equally anal precision, the snobs can't see past the fact that Seiko also sell many more watches in the bargain basement sector of the market.

Many inexpensive Seikos are equally accurate timepieces as some Rolex, and are equally handsome, or even seen as prettier to some eyes. Irrelevant details to the snobs.

But isn't the objective measure of a watch the accuracy by which it keeps time? Not to the snobs - instead they acknowledge nothing more than ticket price of even a low end Rolex compared to the man-in-the street's Seiko.

Having Said that, not *all* of the argument is borne of snobbery... Just saying.

Cheerz

Mark H


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## badgersdad (May 16, 2014)

Rampant said:


> The simple answer to your question is as follows:
> 
> People can be dicks.


That answer fits a lot of question s. I might set this quote on speed dial


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

People confuse watches and brands, Seiko has one brand image, Rolex has another, its hard to explain but the Seiko fanboys scoff at Rolexians as they believe they have a watch that is as good as a Rolex in pure watchiness terms but the Rolexians wont have it, anything that costs 15 times as much must be better intrinsically.

But thats not taking the strength and value of the brand into account, Rolex does 'add value' to the watch , in the way its perceived, how it makes you feel, how others think about it and its resale value. These are all legitimate values that make a Rolex worth it to the buyers of them and why not. As just watches then I personally dont think they are anything extraordinary, but as a brand they most definitely are, how people relate or not to that is a personal thing.. I love Seiko because they make superb watches that I can afford, but I love Rolex as well for all sorts of reasons like those above. Seiko will never have the same cachet as Rolex but they made watches every bit as good.


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## SlimJim16v (Mar 29, 2011)

Snobbery, elitism and perceived value.

I'm looking to get a Seiko Credor, the photos I've seen of the movement, it's a work of art and easily as good as a Rolex. It is about Â£700 - Â£1000 used on ebay.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Nicely put Jason :thumbsup:


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## PDXWatchCollector (Nov 15, 2013)

badgersdad said:


> mattbeef said:
> 
> 
> > I think people tend to get upset as Seiko do both ends of the scale, and at the top end they wont pay to have their movements COSC certified
> ...


They can certainly pay to get certified, but I'm pretty sure the Swiss banned the Japanese makers from participating in COSC competitions in the early 70s, because the Japanese were cleaning up ... telling, no?


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Rolex and Porsche are probably a good match, people love to hate them and stereotype their owners. In most cases with no foundation and never having owned either.

:lol: :lol:


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## Rampant (Nov 27, 2012)

BondandBigM said:


> Rolex and Porsche are probably a good match, people love to hate them and stereotype their owners. In most cases with no foundation and never having owned either.
> 
> :lol: :lol:


Again - this is very true.

We are a 2 car family. Porsche 996 C4S and Mitsubishi Evo IX.

On pretty much every objective measure I can think of the Evo is a "better" car.

Faster acceleration.

Superior grip and traction.

More direct steering.

Much more 'accessible' performance.

More practical!

The list goes on.

And yet the Porsche is the more expensive car. By a lot. And considered the more exclusive. Which it actually isn't!

Argue amongst yourselves which is the "better" car, and why...

Cheerz

Mark H


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## rhino2k (Oct 17, 2014)

In all honesty I am not sure I would want to own a Rolex.

There are a ridiculous amount of fakes about, And the first thing most people say when someone has a Rolex is "fake".

I like to have watches that people ask me about, The CW i recently sold got a bit of attention!

Currently I have a nice TAG, And have eyes on a SMP. I can honestly say Rolex as a brand are being devalued seriously by all these fakes in my eyes.

I know this has nothing to do directly with the debate, But at least if you get a Seiko it is likely to be real!


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## ong (Jul 31, 2008)

Personally I'm not bothered about all the fake Rolexes. Mine is really and so is my Seiko Jap made 7s36a movement. Both get worn and appreciated which is what matters to me.


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## SlimJim16v (Mar 29, 2011)

It's the same as when Honda made the NSX in 1989. It was easily as good as other supercars, having had Ayrton Senna help with the handling. It has never sold well, as it's 'only' a Honda.

Badge snobbery/engineering.

I think Vauxhall/Omega had the same problem with the Lotus Carlton, despite it being easily capable of 170mph.


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## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

Am surprised no-one has mentioned the Omega co-axial which outperforms the Rolex........ :blush2:


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## SlimJim16v (Mar 29, 2011)

Maybe it's because Rolex is the aspirational brand and those who have something to prove, aim at them?


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

Functionally Seiko and Rolex are pretty much the same. We could compare in a different way, such as: Rolex watches are made in Switzerland and Seiko watches are/were made in Japan. During the war, the Swiss were profiteers hiding behind neutrality and the Japanese were bloodthirsty conquerors. Therefore, as already mentioned, it is a matter of personal taste. :wink2:

Later,

William


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## chris.ph (Dec 29, 2011)

Can of worms is officially open lol.....

I've got 5 seikos but no Rolex(Christ even the auto correct on my phone gives it a capital letter it didn't for seiko lol) I would love a submariner or a gmt but if I had that sort of money to spare I would buy an old landie or xk8 to play with. Seikos as we know are pretty much bombproof and more importantly to me affordable.


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## artistmike (May 13, 2006)

The rivalry between the fans of either brand is akin to the passions involved with football it seems to me at times, which is a shame, as both makers have given so much to watch development over the years and whose markets are in fact totally different. .. This has also engendered some totally false myths about both brands which seem to get perpetuated on watch forums where people who have a real interest in watches should know better.

Rolex do not make inexpensive watches, in the way that Seiko do, despite the fact that Rolex is by far the bigger manufacturer turning out approximately 800,000 watches a year, while Seiko produce only about 200,000, Rolex mass-produce and market, in vast numbers, good watches better than anyone else, whilst Seiko turn out truly great inexpensive pieces that do the job at that price, better than anyone else does too.

At the top end, Seiko produce better watches than Rolex. Watches in their Credor range, like the Masterpiece Spring Drive Minute Repeater is a true piece of high end horology ( Here for anyone who hasn't seen it.. https://azfinetime.w...peater-gbls998/ ) and the top end Credor range is studio produced in small numbers for a small aficionado market.

Neither manufacturer is really in the same market at any level, the companies have totally different business ethics and aims, so comparing the two is pointless. Both manufacturers do what they do superbly and the watch industry is the better for it.


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## futuristfan (Sep 13, 2009)

I agree with Jason's statement how a watch brand is perceived does add value its a sad fact. This is coming from the angle of having owned both. For us in the know A GS spring drive is a thing of beauty but look at resale if you where to take it to a local pawnbroker jeweler they would perceive it as a risky investment compared with Rolex.


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## artistmike (May 13, 2006)

futuristfan said:


> For us in the know A GS spring drive is a thing of beauty but look at resale if you where to take it to a local pawnbroker jeweler they would perceive it as a risky investment compared with Rolex.


Most people that buy watches, including a GS Springdrive, aren't in it for the re-sale, that's really a watch forum thing way of describing value and somewhat of a spurious argument and I doubt many pawnbrokers would ever have even come across a Credor for example... A Rolex submariner customer is almost certainly a totally different beast to one buying a GS or Credor, so again there's no comparison really...


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

PDXWatchCollector said:


> badgersdad said:
> 
> 
> > mattbeef said:
> ...


Seiko certainly make watches that are within COSC, and some GS far surpass it. But they would never get certified, as COSC is Swiss only. The clue is in the name *ContrÃ´le Officiel Suisse des ChronomÃ¨tres*


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## james brodie (Mar 2, 2014)

It's a good question and I can think of many possible answers. But image is a big thing in both case scenarios. I'll use a controversial analogy: Rolex is the high class prostitute on your arm who doesn't have sex with you. Seiko can be reasonably cheap and cheerful or very expensive, yet will always give you an evening you'll never forget....


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

Whoops, double post


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

Some very interesting responses, thank you one and all for taking the time to explain, Its hard for me to select and quote a single response to sum up the reasoning which best 'answers' my 'observation' in the 'op'. I'd like to refer to it has an observation as that is what it is (on the basis it is a scenario which I have seen this discussed many times - so therefore my 'observation' (rather bluntly and crudely stated though it may be), simply aimed to reach a reasonably discernible 'conclusion'.

However two responses taken together seem to sum up both the objectivity and the subjectivity which amazingly finds common ground in the two brands. (I will quote these below for simplicity).

Also understandable and erudite are the car analogies especially with the Japanese as they clearly make cars which are comparable to many of the elitist badges. So I will include that as the 3rd quoted response which for my-self provides sufficient and adequate understanding of the reasons why two prima-facie disparate brands actually reflect many of the same values.

Regards N.


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

jasonm said:


> People confuse watches and brands, Seiko has one brand image, Rolex has another, its hard to explain but the Seiko fanboys scoff at Rolexians as they believe they have a watch that is as good as a Rolex in pure watchiness terms but the Rolexians wont have it, anything that costs 15 times as much must be better intrinsically.
> 
> But thats not taking the strength and value of the brand into account, Rolex does 'add value' to the watch , in the way its perceived, how it makes you feel, how others think about it and its resale value. These are all legitimate values that make a Rolex worth it to the buyers of them and why not. As just watches then I personally dont think they are anything extraordinary, but as a brand they most definitely are, how people relate or not to that is a personal thing.. I love Seiko because they make superb watches that I can afford, but I love Rolex as well for all sorts of reasons like those above. Seiko will never have the same cachet as Rolex but they made watches every bit as good.


This sums up the subjectivity in my mind


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

artistmike said:


> The rivalry between the fans of either brand is akin to the passions involved with football it seems to me at times, which is a shame, as both makers have given so much to watch development over the years and whose markets are in fact totally different. .. This has also engendered some totally false myths about both brands which seem to get perpetuated on watch forums where people who have a real interest in watches should know better.
> 
> Rolex do not make inexpensive watches, in the way that Seiko do, despite the fact that Rolex is by far the bigger manufacturer turning out approximately 800,000 watches a year, while Seiko produce only about 200,000, Rolex mass-produce and market, in vast numbers, good watches better than anyone else, whilst Seiko turn out truly great inexpensive pieces that do the job at that price, better than anyone else does too.
> 
> ...


Thank you very clearly stated and well explained


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## badgersdad (May 16, 2014)

Nigelp said:


> artistmike said:
> 
> 
> > The rivalry between the fans of either brand is akin to the passions involved with football it seems to me at times, which is a shame, as both makers have given so much to watch development over the years and whose markets are in fact totally different. .. This has also engendered some totally false myths about both brands which seem to get perpetuated on watch forums where people who have a real interest in watches should know better.
> ...


But crikey, that Credor is ugly. It isn't going to spawn a massive market in homage watches.


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

Rampant said:


> BondandBigM said:
> 
> 
> > Rolex and Porsche are probably a good match, people love to hate them and stereotype their owners. In most cases with no foundation and never having owned either.
> ...


However this I feel is spot on thank you :yes: :yes: :yes:


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## handlehall (Aug 7, 2009)

To put it simply, most rational people don't give a damn.


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## artistmike (May 13, 2006)

handlehall said:


> To put it simply, most rational people don't give a damn.


You expect us watch geeks to be rational ? .... :lol:


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

badgersdad said:


> Nigelp said:
> 
> 
> > artistmike said:
> ...


Unlike the sub


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## mcb2007 (Dec 12, 2013)

SlimJim16v said:


> Maybe it's because Rolex is the aspirational brand and those who have something to prove, aim at them?


nah thats a bs statement i have two and nothing to prove.


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## richy176 (Aug 7, 2013)

It always seems to be Seiko v Rolex for some reason! Why not Citizen v Omega or Zenith? A bit like the comments "I would never pay more than Â£200 for a quartz watch" or "quatz have no soul".

I have read a few reviews comparing the Rolex Sub and the Grand Seiko Spring Drive Diver and on overall quality they come pretty close. The spring drive does have a quartz in there and some purists will discount it for that.

Rolex is traditional quality whilst Seiko is more new tech quality. We know that Rolex holds value and parts will be available for many years. The future value of Grand Seiko is unknown and there have been suggestions that parts will not be available for long once a movement goes out of production (maybe only 10 years).


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## andyclient (Aug 1, 2009)

mcb2007 said:


> SlimJim16v said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe it's because Rolex is the aspirational brand and those who have something to prove, aim at them?
> ...


Absolutely I to own Rolexes and i've certainly got nothing to prove I also own a few Seiko's 2 of which i would never part with as they both have great sentimental value


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

The reason there is problems between the Seiko and Rolex owners is.......

They all really want to be Omega owners. :yes:


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## badgersdad (May 16, 2014)

mcb2007 said:


> i have ... nothing to prove.


Yeah? Prove it.


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## rhino2k (Oct 17, 2014)

Alas said:


> The reason there is problems between the Seiko and Rolex owners is.......
> 
> They all really want to be Omega owners. :yes:


 :lol:


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

artistmike said:


> Rolex is by far the bigger manufacturer turning out approximately 800,000 watches a year, while Seiko produce only about 200,000


Can you prove that in any way?

I'm surprised to hear that Seiko/Lorus/Pulsar make less watches annually than Rolex/Tudor


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## wookie (Apr 27, 2009)

Seiko would have no real need to submit their watches for COSC as their own test is done at six positions adjusted to temperature taking 17 days, COSC is only measured in five positions adjusted to

temperature taking about 15 days.

I think I read somewhere that his was the reason used by the swiss when they barred Seiko from the chronometer competition.

I've no problem with either brand and would happily wear both, The arguments between both sets of fans tends to be the same three or four people over at TZ, and I doubt that's going to change anytime soon.

I wonder whether the cosc testing machinery has any Japanese electronics inside, that would probably cause some raised blood pressure 

wook


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

richy176 said:


> It always seems to be Seiko v Rolex for some reason! Why not Citizen v Omega or Zenith? A bit like the comments "I would never pay more than Â£200 for a quartz watch" or "quatz have no soul".
> 
> I have read a few reviews comparing the Rolex Sub and the Grand Seiko Spring Drive Diver and on overall quality they come pretty close. The spring drive does have a quartz in there and some purists will discount it for that.
> 
> Rolex is traditional quality whilst Seiko is more new tech quality. We know that Rolex holds value and parts will be available for many years. The future value of Grand Seiko is unknown and there have been suggestions that parts will not be available for long once a movement goes out of production (maybe only 10 years).


I'm sure Omega and Citizen would produce just as much interest from a discussion point of view, I expect we could draw comparisons between most manufacturers and pit them against each other. A bit like car magazines do when testing cars. Pictures would be a good idea to illustrate the discussions. But no falling out please


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## SlimJim16v (Mar 29, 2011)

andyclient said:


> mcb2007 said:
> 
> 
> > SlimJim16v said:
> ...


No, no, no. I meant that the Seiko owner who has something to prove aims at Rolex. "My GS is at least as good as your Rolex."

I have a GMTII, lovely thing (poor bracelet though), but I'm equally pleased with one of my quartz Seikos, an SBCM023.


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## SlimJim16v (Mar 29, 2011)

The Seiko Credor I fancy -


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## artistmike (May 13, 2006)

bobbymonks said:


> artistmike said:
> 
> 
> > Rolex is by far the bigger manufacturer turning out approximately 800,000 watches a year, while Seiko produce only about 200,000
> ...


As I said there are a lot of myths and preconceptions about watch brands...... 

Below is a graph of the 2012 annual watch unit production figures, where you will see the the annual production of Seiko, Citizen and Casio put together is still less than the production of Rolex... The "myth" that Rolex produce "exclusive" watches is precisely that, marketing, and extremely good marketing too. Mind you when you look at the section "Other", which is mainly Chinese, you get an idea of the volume they are turning out, though the value is of course, is far less....


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## Rampant (Nov 27, 2012)

Yes, but does this pie chart include sub-brands, such as Pulsar for Seiko and Tudor for Rolex???

I am quite frankly staggered that Patek produce almost as many watches as Seiko or Citizen.

Cheerz

Mark H


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

Later,

William


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## mcb2007 (Dec 12, 2013)

SlimJim16v said:


> andyclient said:
> 
> 
> > mcb2007 said:
> ...


Got you now, misunderstood the comment sorry


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## SlimJim16v (Mar 29, 2011)

No need to apologise, we're all WISess calmly, so far, discussing the old rivalry.


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## futuristfan (Sep 13, 2009)

artistmike said:


> futuristfan said:
> 
> 
> > For us in the know A GS spring drive is a thing of beauty but look at resale if you where to take it to a local pawnbroker jeweler they would perceive it as a risky investment compared with Rolex.
> ...


I don't agree sorry. You may be in a situation that allows you not to consider value or depreciation for me I like to swap and change every now and again and value or resale has to be a factor. I feel Rolex do tend to claw back a greater percentage of value over a period of time. "Spurious argument" you may be correct as I have never seen a pre owned GS springdrive or any GS or Credor for that matter on any of my visits to Pawnbrokers or jewellers over a number of years, so for me my claim is backed up by fact but you may consider it spurious. Maybe we move in different WIS circles.


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## PDXWatchCollector (Nov 15, 2013)

bobbymonks said:


> PDXWatchCollector said:
> 
> 
> > badgersdad said:
> ...


The "clue" is less definitive when you recognize that Seiko DID compete in the COSC competitions up through the early 70s, bringing their Grand Seiko complications, straight off the assembly line, against Swiss ebauches, many of which were made specifically for the competition.

I agree that this is not an option for Seiko today, however.


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

I like this very much indeed but can't afford it yet, what would its competitor from Seiko look like just asking?


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## badgersdad (May 16, 2014)

SlimJim16v said:


> The Seiko Credor I fancy -


OK, that's nice.


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## SlimJim16v (Mar 29, 2011)

And the bracelet puts most others to shame.


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## badgersdad (May 16, 2014)

SlimJim16v said:


> And the bracelet puts most others to shame.


Well, so you might expect for the price.

I'm just having a look at some of the Seiko SARB and SARG series. Lovely watches for not much layout. Uh oh...


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## artistmike (May 13, 2006)

futuristfan said:


> artistmike said:
> 
> 
> > futuristfan said:
> ...


I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself clear, I wasn't talking about us WIS, who are a tiny minority who chop and change our watches all the time, but the watch buying public in general who buy a watch to keep for it's lifetime and to whom re-sale value just isn't something they consider.

When you consider the production numbers of Credor watches and the fact that few even reach this country, you're right, not many will get into the hands of pawnbrokers and I doubt many would have seen one and probably wouldn't be comfortable pricing one...


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Nigelp said:


> I like this very much indeed but can't afford it yet, what would its competitor from Seiko look like just asking?
> 
> 
> 
> [IMG alt="16735006271_6ee45412c3_b....r.com/8622/16735006271_6ee45412c3_b.jpg[/IMG]


As they say

"Cream always comes to the Top"


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

badgersdad said:


> SlimJim16v said:
> 
> 
> > The Seiko Credor I fancy -
> ...


Yep but good as it possibly is it's a straightforward Carrera/Speedie/Daytona rip off


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## Trigger (Sep 16, 2011)

I think I've seen it all now..

" I don't want a Rolex 'cos some other people wear fake ones... I wear a TAG... "

Ehhhhrm?


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

I reckon my 'Spork' is just as nice a quality as my Rollie GMT or indeed a Sub....the bracelet alone is an engineering feat...far superior to the Rolex bracelet on my GMT.


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## mcb2007 (Dec 12, 2013)

Trigger said:


> I think I've seen it all now..
> 
> " I don't want a Rolex 'cos some other people wear fake ones... I wear a TAG... "
> 
> Ehhhhrm?


Hahaha just what I was thinking because they don't copy Tags do they lol


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## SlimJim16v (Mar 29, 2011)

BondandBigM said:


> Yep but good as it possibly is it's a straightforward Carrera/Speedie/Daytona rip off


To be fair though, there are only so many ways to add 3 sub-dials and 3 crown/pushers to a chrono. My favourite being the Zenith El Primero Rainbow, although I have been looking at the Rolex Daytona today


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## artistmike (May 13, 2006)

BondandBigM said:


> Yep but good as it possibly is it's a straightforward Carrera/Speedie/Daytona rip off


Well not really as SlimJim says it's a long established layout which really dates from the forties and fifties and one of course that the Rolex Daytona had nothing much to do with, as their layout was determined by the use of the movements they bought in, the Valjoux hand wound movement initially and then by Zenith's automatic one later on. Of course Lemania in 1946 had much to do with the establishment of the triple register layout calibre 321 that was found in the Omega Speedmaster.

For the modern automatic chronographs developed in the late nineteen sixties we certainly have to thank the likes of Seiko, Zenith, Heuer and Dubois-Depraz for the development and layout of the chronograph and there have been some great developments since then of the movements. like Seiko's Spring Drive and Omega's Co-Axial versions now available.

Chronographs have an interesting history and it's great there's still some great development being done but I hardly think you could call the Credor a "rip off" in any way at all when you look at the real history of how things happened.


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

I was thinking about my original 'observation' on my morning walk today (as you do when you're 'like us' lol).

My preponderance lead me to the conclusion (following the forgoing exchange of views). That due to the introduction of the Grand Seiko range (to which I had previously been in ignorance due to being aware of only the name, so apologies for that) and especially the 'spring-drive'. I believe that Rolex and Grand Seiko are competing in the same consumer environment to a quiet probably small degree at least (though that also forms the basis of a moot point within itself?).

Therefore it would appear that the 'halo effect' of the 'GS' range has had an effect (for those in the know) on the rest of the Seiko range. Having looked into the development of the 'GS' range and taking a completely neutral stance to both brands (as I am totally open minded on the subject being discussed and believe the markets are constantly evolving in any case).

I can now understand a previous comment (some where lost in the midst above) along the lines that such developments keep manufacturers like Rolex for example on top of their game as it were (I've paraphrased there).

Therefore in conclusion in my own mind Rolex and 'GS' can be compared and will appeal to disparate consumers whom despite their tastes are actually in the same market demographic, it would appear on this basis both brands are a perfect foil and complement for each other, they seem to be equals and opposites even withstanding any give or take on quality or image to either proponent.

To analogize , its a lot like when Toyota introduce the Lexus LS400 to market in Summer 1989, I believe the response from the Boss Man (of the time) within 'Daimler Benz' was along the lines of 'Bring the 'S-Class' and meet me at the drawing board'. 

Thank you to one and all for taking part in the above and enlightening me to the facts discussed


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

I do rather like this :yes:


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## Trigger (Sep 16, 2011)

Nigelp said:


> I do rather like this :yes:


And no wonder. An incredible looking watch with one of the best movements that money can buy. In no way whatsoever having to compete with or be compared to any Rolex, or indeed any other watch.

I wish I had one of those.


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## james brodie (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm sure it's a better watch in pretty much every way than any Rolex Submariner. But try saying that to a West Ham fan with allegiances to the far right from Romford... :lol:

Sorry, HAVE to stop this stereo-typing of Rollie fan club.... :thumbup:


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## artistmike (May 13, 2006)

Trigger said:


> I wish I had one of those.


Me too ! ... I've no real allegiance to any particular brand and have owned quite a few of them in my time with the exception a top end Seiko. I'm happy with with Omegas, Rolex and other diverse bits and bobs but I keep looking at Grand Seikos, amongst a few other brands, and they really do appeal. Now I need to just rob a bank or two..


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Roger the Dodger said:


> I reckon my 'Spork' is just as nice a quality as my Rollie GMT or indeed a Sub....the bracelet alone is an engineering feat...far superior to the Rolex bracelet on my GMT.


In some ways you have a point but I wore an old 70's Pepsi GMT for years with the original Oyster bracelet and it never failed me and you've no doubt seen from my pictures my watchs have hard life worn everywhere doing all sorts where as the bracelet on a Monster I had was poor quality. And have you tried a newer version of the GMT with the "comfort" link if it engineering you want.



And I'll throw in a schematic of the "trip lock" just so as you can be sure of the capabilities of the Rolex engineering department.

:lol: :lol:


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## Trigger (Sep 16, 2011)

artistmike said:


> Trigger said:
> 
> 
> > I wish I had one of those.
> ...


Amen. I really wish I had the ability to concentrate on the big goals instead of endless distractions.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Somne interesting info in this link

http://www.ahametals.com/10-things-every-rolex-owner-know/

Just out of curiousity of course how many of you that have commented in this discussion have owned both a Seiko and a Rolex. And maybe at the same time so its a valid comparison rather than an anecdotal comment.


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## artistmike (May 13, 2006)

BondandBigM said:


> Just out of curiousity of course how many of you that have commented in this discussion have owned both a Seiko and a Rolex. And maybe at the same time so its a valid comparison rather than an anecdotal comment.


Well I have, but the Seiko's I've had haven't been of the quality of a Grand Seiko or Credor, just their run of the mill offerings and of course those can't be compared with a Rolex, they aren't in the same market, I agree It's just not realistic to compare a low end Seiko 'Monster' or 007 with a Submariner, they are totally different beasts.

As I said before, at no level do the two companies really compete, the company ethics and business models are totally different, it just tends to be WIS who, for some unknown reason, get all competitive and try to enforce some sort of comparison, I'm sure those in the real world who buy either brand don't get quite so het up....

As a matter of interest have you owned a Credor to make a comparison ? .. I've not known many who have owned one and certainly never had one in my hands to compare to my Submariner...


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

I think if some one is reading this who owns a Rolex and a Grand Seiko at the moment (if there is such a person) they could be of assistance


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

No I haven't owned a Credor and my opinion is based purely on looks. If I was going to blow that sort of money on an other watch I'd buy the original not a look a likey.

You know how it works

"Nice Speedie mate"

Then I would have to spend the next hour extolling the virtues and justifying the Seiko and in the process bore the @rse off all and sundry instead of just saying "cheers mate"

Shallow I know but hey ho

:lol: :lol:


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## artistmike (May 13, 2006)

BondandBigM said:


> No I haven't owned a Credor and my opinion is based purely on looks. If I was going to blow that sort of money on an other watch I'd buy the original not a look a likey.
> 
> You know how it works
> 
> ...


The likey thing is a bit hackneyed really and applies as much to the Rolex as anyone else , as it was Blancpain who set the design standards that has become the classic divers watch. As far as "justifying" a Seiko to anyone else, or any other watch come to that, I tend to buy watches that I like rather than worry what others may think.

As far as the Credor Minute Repeater is concerned that I linked too earlier, I can't think of another watch that looks anything like that... Mind you, many might say that's a good thing..  I'd still have one in a heartbeat though when it sounds like this.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

As people will know I own a couple of Rolex including a Submariner, also couple of Tudors, plus various Omegas, Tags etc as well as watches at the other end of the scale. My attitude is if I like a watch enough, can afford & am willing to pay the asking price I`ll get it if not I won`t & I don`t give a fetid dingo`s kidneys what anyone else thinks about my choices. As an example, a few years ago I went to look at a new Rolex LV with the intention of possibly buying it, now it was very nice and without question an excellent watch but in the end I found I didn`t want it enough to spend that kind of money on one watch. I really liked the looks so I bought an Alpha copy instead, obviously not remotely as good as the LV but good enough for my needs, I don`t dive or even swim & never wear any 30m `water resistant` watch out in the rain or even when washing up, it keeps good time & I`d never try to palm it off as the real thing. I know this sort of attitude seems to really bug some people but as I said earlier - I don`t give a fetid dingo`s kidneys what anyone else thinks about my choices :tease:


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

I wondered how long it would be before you taunted me with that Alpha again !!!!

And people say Im a troll

:lol: :lol:


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

It had to be done Mr.Bond 

Oh, & admit it, you do have trollish tendencies :lol:


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Oh, & admit it, you do have trollish tendencies :lol:


Not at all, I just live in the real world not the fantasy world some posters on this forum live in.

:lol: :lol:


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

Ok to bring the thread back to reality can we have a picture of the LV and the Alpha please :lol: , I had an Alpha PO for a while but gave it to the chap next door, then he blamed me because it was losing a bit of time and he was late picking his wife up from work


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## Caller. (Dec 8, 2013)

I'm a neutral on this one. It took me ages to find any Rolex I really would like to buy, having tried many, but only recently found and tried on the Sea Dweller D-Blue dial, which is simply stunning (and a huge lump of metal). Silly money though, that takes it out of my reach and as for Grand Seiko, I only saw a few in the UK. First, a small selection in a jewellers in Southampton and then a slightly larger selection in Selfridges. But here in Thailand and especially in Bangkok, they are widely available and as nice (and similar) as they are, I've yet to see one that I feel the love for.

I'm interested in the figures in that pie chart, which I too found hard to believe. I must dig my watch annual out and see what that has to say!


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

6 or 7 pages in you are lucky the thread is even remotely still on the original subject

:lol: :lol:


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

What was the original subject? :huh: :lol:

Sorry about that, I`ll behave myself from now on


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## artistmike (May 13, 2006)

Caller said:


> I'm interested in the figures in that pie chart, which I too found hard to believe. I must dig my watch annual out and see what that has to say!


Here are some more recent statistics for the watch industry and a few other figures in there, regarding who buys them, make for interesting reading:- 

http://www.statistic...try-statistics/


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> What was the original subject? :huh: :lol:
> 
> Sorry about that, I`ll behave myself from now on


And so you should

As the current top mod you should be leading by example

:lol: :lol:


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

BondandBigM said:


> 6 or 7 pages in you are lucky the thread is even remotely still on the original subject
> 
> :lol: :lol:


I've forgotten what it was my-self now. Ho yes we started off comparing Rolex and Alpha.


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## Caller. (Dec 8, 2013)

artistmike said:


> Here are some more recent statistics for the watch industry and a few other figures in there, regarding who buys them, make for interesting reading:-
> 
> http://www.statistic...try-statistics/


Yes, interesting. But a bit of further research on the net shows that Seiko don't disclose information about numbers produced and sold, so where has it come from? Also, do those stats reflect all the brands in the Seiko range or just the ones under the Seiko label?


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

BondandBigM said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> > What was the original subject? :huh: :lol:
> ...


I always do, I`m a good boy me, my old baby-sitter (who happens to live opposite to me) says so


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## SlimJim16v (Mar 29, 2011)

BondandBigM said:


> No I haven't owned a Credor and my opinion is based purely on looks. If I was going to blow that sort of money on an other watch I'd buy the original not a look a likey.
> 
> You know how it works
> 
> ...


Part of me agrees with you. Spending near Â£1k on a Seiko isn't easy, I've bid on one, but it's hard, especially knowing I'll be clobbered with tax too.

Let's put an alternative scenario to you though -

NotaWIS - Nice watch, is it a Rolex?

Bond - No, it's a PP/Panerai/JLC/AP etc.

NotaWIS - nevermind, I'm sure you'll be able to aford a Rolex one day.

Bond - :wallbash:

:lol:


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

SlimJim16v said:


> BondandBigM said:
> 
> 
> > No I haven't owned a Credor and my opinion is based purely on looks. If I was going to blow that sort of money on an other watch I'd buy the original not a look a likey.
> ...


:lol: :lol:


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

rhino2k said:


> In all honesty I am not sure I would want to own a Rolex.
> 
> There are a ridiculous amount of fakes about, And the first thing most people say when someone has a Rolex is "fake".


 You need to improve your circle of friends


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## rhino2k (Oct 17, 2014)

Boxbrownie said:


> rhino2k said:
> 
> 
> > In all honesty I am not sure I would want to own a Rolex.
> ...


 Not really, My friends would not be the issue.

The Jeremy Kyle Brigade are though! As soon as most people see someone "average" with a Rolex they assume it is fake, Even I do it as they are so easy to come by.

Lets be honest, Joggers do not really go with a Rolex, When I see a Chav flashing one of the more expensive models around I am 99& confident it was made in china!


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

I heard a Rolex might lose 8 seconds a day!

Later,

William


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## Nigelp (Jan 28, 2015)

William_Wilson said:


> I heard a Rolex might lose 8 seconds a day!
> 
> Later,
> 
> William










(of it too)


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)




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