# Hi Guys Just A Warning. . . . .



## Ibrahombre (Jun 19, 2005)

Over on the Seiko & Citizen Forum they are discussing the authenticity of some of the Seikos that Roy is offering for sale on His site including dire warnings to stay away from any purchase,i feel that the Seiko forum are being a bit harsh and would like to post my support for Roy and have bought many straps from Him and i find His service outstanding.Just My 2-pence worth!


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Yeah, saw that, I feel a bit guilty as I started the topic, but as with any specialist collecor group they can be a bit 'anal' in their assesment of any watch they find, my feeling is that Roys watches are great value for their price, the vintage divers are all over 20 years old + now, and if you want museum peices (a) they just arnt on the market, (







they will cost significantly more than Roy charges









( except that 6105 which I still say was a steal







)

Also consider Roys have been serviced and carry a warrenty which is more than most retailers offer


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

Ibrahombre said:


> Over on the Seiko & Citizen Forum they are discussing the authenticity of some of the Seikos that Roy is offering for sale on His site including dire warnings to stay away from any purchase,i feel that the Seiko forum are being a bit harsh and would like to post my support for Roy and have bought many straps from Him and i find His service outstanding.Just My 2-pence worth!
> 
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Nowhere does it say to "stay away" from the site or to "stay away from any purchase". The only thing one poster said was to be wary, and it was only in regard to the fact that some of the vintage seiko divers sold by RLT have after-market dials, yet this is not disclosed on the item's description. The reference to satying away was from this particular watch, not for all of roy's watches, and it was because the seller was looking for a complete original (and it was only made by one person). I beleive that most folks agree that Roy sells very nice quality watches. Heck someone even said that because of british VAT, buying these redialed watches in brittain is a a more affordable (and prefferable) proposition to buying a fully restored original.

IMHO, they aren't being anal, but rather addressing a fair point, for someone seeking to buy a 100% original model might feel cheated if the information regarding a re-dial was not disclosed. They are collectors after all. To be frank, I feel like Roy would be better served by disclosing that info, and doubt that doing so would affect the price of his watches that much, seeing that for the most part, they tend to be in otherwise very good shape.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

All my 6309's are bought from a collector. I have no idea if they are original dials or not.

They look good to me and better than many grubby ones I have seen on Ebay for much more money. I am not a self proclaimed expert like some people on the Seiko forum.









If some of my 6309 dials are aftermarket then so what , I am not stating that they are original unless I know that they are. I would sooner have an aftermarket dial than an Ebay dog anyway. I have sold over 50 6309's from the same collector and had no complaints. One guy did return one because some "expert" on the Seiko forum said it was a fake when it was'nt.









A proper service on a 6309 can cost up to Â£70 making my 6309's about Â£60 when this is taken into account.

The trouble with that forum is someone will post I believe this or I believe that then it becomes a fact and everyone believes it.









PS. Thank's Jase.


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

Roy said:


> The trouble with that forum is someone will post I believe this or I believe that then it becomes a fact and everyone believes it.Â


Very true. Also finding info on specific models has been a problem. That's the reason a few of us put the following guide to 6309's together and posted it a couple of days ago (btw, the links are just to images and not to re-direct traffic to another site):



isthmus said:


> The following is a guide made from my own observations, together with excellent technical feedback provided by Randall Benson; information and images found on Kevin Chanâ€™s Seiko Diverâ€™s Reference; and further feedback [most notably] from Luka-San, Cobrajet, and too many others to mention.Â I flagrantly "borrowed" some pictures that were posted to the forum, I hope you don't mind my using them here.Â Thanks all of you for your inputs.Â
> 
> Please note that the guide focuses solely on 6309 dive watches and does not address the Japan only 6306 variant of the watch.
> 
> ...


There were additional comments which disagree a little as to how long into the 1980's the 704x models where produced. some people seem to have models produced as far as 1985, while at least one person claims to have one from 1987.

Perhaps this can be a tool for 6309 buyers on this site as well. Regards.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

That's all well and good but how much of the above is 100% fact from Seiko ?

Is it just peoples observations ?

Over the years I have probably seen over a thousand 6309's yet because of too much information out there, sometimes wrong information, it is now becoming a problem to sell these.

I do feel that there may be varients that have not even been examined and these would be called non original by so called experts even though they might be.

No one knows for sure except Seiko and they probably don't have records.

I do feel that the public are misguided at times and should not believe everything they read.

On the Seiko forum they were also discussing the originality of the 6105 that I had.









PS. I have a box full of original 6309's like this if anyone wants them.


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

well I can't vouch for every last word, but most of it was assembled from observations, information from seiko ordering catalogues, collectors of these specific models, and mainly from a couple of watchmakers who specialize in restoring and modifying seiko divers. So while I can't say that the info is 100% accurate, I would wager that it is very close.

Not trying to get into a pissing contest with you roy. I did say that what you offer is very nice. I was just replying to the original post which was inaccurate; making a valid point regarding listings which might be of interest to some people; and offering a tool for anyone interested in these specific watches. Of course if anyone would like to offer any comments, corrections or expand on anything written in that guide, I would be happy to amend it. By no means I'm I trying to fight with you or discredit your fine work. I hope you feel the same way about the exchange of ideas at SCWF, since many of their members are also members of your site and hold you in high regard.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

right how many emails have you had from Jase for all your dog seikos?









This problem is becoming worse as the internet gets bigger imho.

Anyone can set themselevs up as an "expert" with no accrediation whatsoever.

I admit there are some experienced people out there but sorting out the truth from the believed from the maybe from the total rubbish is getting harder.

If Roy sold the watch as 100% original and it could be proved (by an accredited expert and not some nobody who thinks he knows it all) it wasn't then I see a case, but as Roy didn't then whats the grind all about?

Knowing roy I expect he gave a full refund anyway cos he's that type of guy but some people just take the biscuit!


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

pg tips said:


> Knowing roy I expect he gave a full refund anyway cos he's that type of guy but some people just take the biscuit!
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I would as I have a dozen other people wanting to buy it.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

Isthmus said:


> well I can't vouch for every last word, but most of it was assembled from observations, information from seiko ordering catalogues, collectors of these specific models, and mainly from a couple of watchmakers who specialize in restoring and modifying seiko divers. So while I can't say that the info is 100% accurate, I would wager that it is very close.
> 
> Not trying to get into a pissing contest with you roy. I did say that what you offer is very nice. I was just replying to the original post which was inaccurate; making a valid point regarding listings which might be of interest to some people; and offering a tool for anyone interested in these specific watches. Of course if anyone would like to offer any comments, corrections or expand on anything written in that guide, I would be happy to amend it. By no means I'm I trying to fight with you or discredit your fine work. I hope you feel the same way about the exchange of ideas at SCWF, since many of their members are also members of your site and hold you in high regard.
> 
> ...


I did not mean you any disrespect or think it was a pissing contest. I was no trying to discredit anything you have written. You probably know more about these than I ever will. I did say that I did not know if the dial was aftermarket, to be perfectly honest with all the information out there I am still unsure.


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

pg tips said:


> right how many emails have you had from Jase for all your dog seikos?


Sorry But I don't know who Jase is, nor have I sold any of my Seiko's, so i fail to see you can say that any of them are dogs (Though I must admit that I do have an old bullhead I bought for parts that is barking very loudly at this moment).



pg tips said:


> This problem is becoming worse as the internet gets bigger imho.Â Anyone can set themselevs up as an "expert" with no accrediation whatsoever.Â I admit there are some experienced people out there but sorting out the truth from the believed from the maybe from the total rubbish is getting harder.


absolutely true, which is the reason we sought to assemble the guide above, and use as much factual information and help from proffessionals to assemble it.



pg tips said:


> If Roy sold the watch as 100% original and it could be proved (by an accredited expert and not some nobody who thinks he knows it all) it wasn't then I see a case, but as Roy didn't then whats the grind all about?


No grind at all. but the again, some people want more detailed info. I guess you can't please everyone.



pg tips said:


> Knowing roy I expect he gave a full refund anyway cos he's that type of guy but some people just take the biscuit!


Not sure I understand who is taking Roy's biscuits, but I hopehe finds them before lunch time. Based on everything I've seen listed and read, it seems like Roy does in fact run a very good operation and does a very fine job with his vintage watches. God knows that I've almost bought a few, however, I've been able to find lower prices on this side of the pond thus far. I'm sure some day though I'll find exactly what I'm looking for, for the right price, on roy's site.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Isthmus said:


> pg tips said:
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> 
> > right how many emails have you had from Jase for all your dog seikos?
> ...


I was asking Roy (not you) refering to the picture of the beaten up 6309 he posted.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Isthmus said:


> I've been able to find lower prices on this side of the pond thus far.
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Serviced and with a 6 month warranty?


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

pg tips said:


> I was asking Roy (not you) refering to the picture of the beaten up 6309 he posted.


Gotcha. Sorry got confused there for a sec.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Isthmus said:


> some people want more detailed info.
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If that's the case why didn't he ask before he bought it?

Why assume it's 100% origional esp if he knows the problems in the market place

And why blame the seller if he didn't ask 1st?


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

pg tips said:


> Serviced and with a 6 month warranty?


Thus far yes. It's taken lots of searching, but for the most part yes. for some of my watches what I've done is used Roy's price as the standard and seen If I can do better after a through search. Thus far I've been able to do it (while working with my own watchmaker), but that doesn't mean that that will continue. For example, I'm finding it very difficult to beat the prices on some of the 6105's Roy has offered at RLT. But hey, the fun is in the hunt right?


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

pg tips said:


> Isthmus said:
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> > some people want more detailed info.Â
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I wasn't refering to the original buyer, and I don't think anyone was blaming the seller either. I was referring to the other collectors who responded to the original post. And you are right, it is a wise rule of thumbb to practice a "buyer beware" attitude when purchasing vintage or collectible items of any sort.


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## raketakat (Sep 24, 2003)

Roy said:


> That's all well and good but how much of the above is 100% fact from Seiko ?
> 
> Is it just peoples observations ?
> 
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This is why I stress on the Russian forum that I know bugger all about Russian watches even though I've spent years collecting, and looking at them.

Everything is AFAIK.

I've seen sites where members will assert opinions as if they are facts. Somebody else will quote the opinoin and it becomes the gospel truth, disseminated over the web.

It's just misguided conjecture really.

Show two academics the same primary source material and you will probably get two differing histories and opinions.

It's fun isn't it







.


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## saz9961 (Jan 7, 2006)

jasonm said:


> Yeah, saw that, I feel a bit guilty as I started the topic, but as with any specialist collecor group they can be a bit 'anal' in their assesment of any watch they find, my feeling is that Roys watches are great value for their price, the vintage divers are all over 20 years old + now, and if you want museum peices (a) they just arnt on the market, (
> 
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I've only brought one watch from RLT, and its my first "vintage" watch. I brought the watch largely on the basis of the positive recommendations here, but I have some observations to make:

1. The watch looks great (cool kanji date), no significant marks on the watch itself. It seems to run a bit slow at times, I don't know if thats par for the course for a 31 year old Seiko.

2. The watch was misdescribed in the advert with regards to the movement. I've accepted that it was an honest mistake, and it hasn't altered how I feel about the watch overall. I've no idea if the watch being a 6106 or 6306 movement makes any difference to value. I didn't pay big bucks like some of you here, but what I paid, for me, wasn't insignificant.

3. From my emails with Roy, I get the impression these watches are not routinely serviced; by servicing, I assume the back of the watch is taken off, and the internals examined. Maybe because the watch is running a bit slow means it could do with a service.

4. The strap, although original, I found pretty disappointing really. It has a number of faults, apparently down to botched repairs over the years. Hopefully these parts can be replaced when I return the watch to Roy for repair. What though I found most disappointing was how dirty the strap was, with 30 years worth of greasy skin bits mixed in with a pink substance I assume is a polishing compound residue. It really wouldn't have taken much to get the strap to be as gleaming as the watch itself. Again, I will trust Roy to attend to this when the watch is returned.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

All my watches are serviced and it will be corrected under warranty.

Sorry about the bracelet I must have missed it. If I had have seen the damage then I would have thrown it away and sold the watch on a strap for the same low price.

I did offer you a full refund.


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

saz9961, if you search the posts from the hundreds of people who have bought watches from Roy you will find , without exception, nothing but platitudes about the superb level of service you get from him, matchd only by the quality of the watch that has been bought. I, for one, can assure you if you got a dirty strap, as Roy said, it will have been an honest mistake, nothing more. I also see from the reply, he will replace it for you and even offered a full refund. What more can you ask for. He makes and sells hundreds, if not thousands, of watches a year and runs this place as well as his business. Give the guy a break! He's only human and we all make 'mistakes' (if you can call it that), I know I do, don't you?

On a personal note, I don't think it was right or proper to put your post, with the comments you made, in this public forum. I feel that if you have an issue with Roy, sort it out via email, privately. I think that was unfair.


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## saz9961 (Jan 7, 2006)

I was afraid of his, and should have known better; on forums, posts are not read carefully enough, everyone thinks anything remotely negative is a personal attack, and draw around the wagons.

Mods; feel free to delete my original post, if it is inappropriate to this discussion; I can't even edit it. I was merely giving an account of my ongoing experience with RLT, which is still ongoing as soon as I get home, and return the watch for the repairs.

My wants are pretty simple; just a cleaned and replaced bracelet. I prefer it if it wasn't actually replaced with a generic replacement, but understand if that wasn't offered (just hope I get the old bracelet, and attempt a repair from bits of another old Seiko, if I can figure out how to get those nail head pins out







)


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

If you mean my reply, It wasn't meant as retaliation for what I may have thought was a 'personal attack'. However, it does serve to show your statement regarding folk not reading posts properly as quite correct! I don't think I misinterpreted anything in your post, I just don't think it was right to post what are essentially private matters of business on a public forum which may harm the proprietor's business. As you say, folk do easily 'misinterpret' what you may be saying and, hence, it may unfairly affect the seller's business. I don't think that's right mate.

Anyway, I'm a lover, not a fighter, lets not fall out!


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

saz9961 said:


> I was afraid of his, and should have known better; on forums, posts are not read carefully enough, everyone thinks anything remotely negative is a personal attack, and draw around the wagons.
> 
> Mods; feel free to delete my original post, if it is inappropriate to this discussion; I can't even edit it. I was merely giving an account of my ongoing experience with RLT, which is still ongoing as soon as I get home, and return the watch for the repairs.
> 
> ...


If you we afraid of the reaction you got why make the post?

We have all had problems with watches we have bought from whatever source, no dealer is perfect. But in Roy's case all it takes is an e-mail to get things sorted out, there is no fuss or bother. Unlike with other dealers I've used.

As for verifying the originality of a watch I suspect Seiko collectors have a much easier time than do collectors of certain brands of American watch, for example Gruen, its records were destroyed when the company ceased trading.

Try getting an after market dial for a vintage Gruen.


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## saz9961 (Jan 7, 2006)

Stan said:


> saz9961 said:
> 
> 
> > I was afraid of his, and should have known better; on forums, posts are not read carefully enough, everyone thinks anything remotely negative is a personal attack, and draw around the wagons.
> ...










Maybe I was expecting this forum to be different from the majority.....

I have been emailing Roy for a little while, and there is an ongoing process, which I didn't realise is secretive or verboten. Actually, I thought it would give confidence to other newbies like me that there is such a process.

Not feeling to welcome on this forum at the moment.







I'll get my coat.


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## ESL (Jan 27, 2004)

saz9961 said:


> Not feeling to welcome on this forum at the moment.
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Come on saz - this forum is different. Evidenced by the fact that no one is flaming the heck out of you, or asking you to naff off.









You are welcome here, and I bet you will get more responses to that end, than any other.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

saz9961 said:


> Stan said:
> 
> 
> > saz9961 said:
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You seem to misunderstand, I have had several occasions on which I've had to contact Roy about problems with items I've bought. On each occasion the matter has been sorted out to my satisfaction and then some.

But, I don't see that my dealings with Roy and the intimate details need to be aired in public. That's my business.

You are most welcome to the forum but your post sounded like a complaint, I wouldn't encourage our members to air complaints about any dealer in open forum. There are two sides to every story after all.

We don't have a good guys/ bad guys section for that reason.


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## saz9961 (Jan 7, 2006)

As a Moderator, can you remove my posts, then, in that case. I can't, and I would if I could.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

saz9961 said:


> As a Moderator, can you remove my posts, then, in that case. I can't, and I would if I could.
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I don't feel there is any need to remove your posts saz. This forum is different from most you will visit and because of critisim we and Roy have recieved from certain groups or individuals in the past we try to avoid naming names. We can't always avoid conflict but we do make the effort.

Roy has recieved personal attacks to his integrity and honesty from some people but has never replied in kind (that I have witnessed). We have had some unpleasant conflicts in the past but have risen above them to the best of our ability.

I mean you no disrespect and understand that you will not be aware of what has passed before, I simply want to point out that your post appeared to be a complaint.

Clearly this is not what you intended.


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## Katt (Jun 3, 2005)

Roy

That is a way to guarantee a few emails from at least 3 of the RLT membership Me & My other 1/2 & certainly Jason... [Actually probably Pauluspaolo as well!!!!]
















That watch still has lots of potential...




























































Roy said:


> PS. I have a box full of original 6309's like this if anyone wants them.


Well all I can say is that a couple of months back I bought a couple of 'sold as seen' with no warranty watches from Roy... They were SKX007's that Roy had got in trade & weren't up to his usual standard so couldn't go on the website... My other 1/2 asked me to get them but was unable to do it himself because he was working away at the time... He just wanted a couple of 'beaters' for a couple of guys that he was working with at the time... Anyway they duly arrived & one of them was running very fast & gaining rather a lot every hour... I contacted Roy to ask his advice... Not expecting any warranty on the watches because they were sold as seen & I got them for a really low price... Roy said that it must have received a knock in the post & could I send it back so that he could sort it out for me... Wow!!!! I sent it off and 4days later I got it back all sorted
















I was very impressed !!!!!!!! Especially since they were sold as seen & I really didn't expect that level of service...









So thx Roy.

Joli.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

What I want to know is where's the box of Timex's?









I bet he's still got thousands of boxes unopened for years that he's been promising Helen he'll get round to sorting since before they moved house


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## Katt (Jun 3, 2005)

Mmmm yes... A real treasure trove
















Be it Timex...

or

Seiko/Citizen...

or

Something Swiss...

Joli.


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## johnbaz (Jan 30, 2005)

roy,

everyone's probably correct that you've had loads of emails about the box of buggered 6309's, if you've any left could i buy one from you as i have a smashing relumed dial (from bry) i also have a movement (crown @ 4)but the case i had earmarked for the job was slightly too small









regards,john.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Im not sure wether to add my 2c here as I think the small fire has gone out now but I just wanted to give you my perspective on why I love the internet, its a great place to find all sorts of info out and I can be an expert in minutes about the most obscure things, but not everyone is as expert as they make out and sometimes errors occur - Ive 'seen' people damage their expensive new car with a cheap performnce enhancing module, people hyping items from a source so they can sell out and also people ruining other people's days by rubishing things they paid wads of cash to acquire maybe because it didnt suit them or more like they were jealous... Its a strange place the internet but I kinda like it and would be very lost without it!

Re Roys service - I have bought numerous watches over the past year from many sellers and without doubt Roy's service is second to none whom I have tried. Even better hes is active on a forum that discusses his creations - few companies do this. Every fan of a brand will stick up for it but truely and independantly Roy gets a thumbs up in this department.

Roy goes out of his way to sort out problems and help out forum members - Ive been on the receiving end of a few watches with problems and Roy has always been quick to help out wth advice even if some of them werent from him, ones from him are always fixed or replaced on return of post - after all a watch is an intrciate machine and the postal workers dont seem to care about that when then throw them around... vintage watch and Royal Mail, er you do the math!

As for possible aftermarket dials, potential componant swaps etc, well Im sure only a true expert would know whats what and as has been said before who knows what combinations the factories produce when doing a run out of model X and starting model Y, especially many years ago. Personally I dont buy with a view to keeping appreciating assets, I buy what I like the look of and then if its goes up then great, if down, well, its no surprise that second hand things usually are worth less than new ones... If I want the prime example of an original something I gen up on everything I can get and go from there, I can be wrong tho and sadly have been to my cost in the past. Perhaps the most original of the 6309's are those that Roy showed on this thread, not pretty but cheap, chearful and most likely never been apart for servicing let alone replacment parts... Id love one as a beater!


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Hello chaps, Ive been away for a day. Have I missed anything ?


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Where were you mate?!? You're my 'backup'!!!


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## Katt (Jun 3, 2005)

Apparently Roy has a box of well used Seiko 6309-704x watches... Mmmm a Cushion cased diver of my own!!!!!!

I wonder if he was serious about selling them as fixer uppers though!!!!!! Worth a thought... Wouldn't be the 1st time I've done that!!!!!! It makes the watch more of a personal item if I've spent time restoring it up!!!!

Joli.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Sorry cammy









Anyhoo, lets get back to normal shall we









Katt, those divers.....


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## Katt (Jun 3, 2005)

Hi Jason!

Yes I know there really is something about those 6309's Mike prefers the 6105's... 2nd preference to the 6309's [He has 7!!!!!]... Then the 7002's [Err he has 5 I think!] But in my book the Day/Date on the 6309 is a winner for me... So I'll have to see if Roy was indeed just making a point or was serious... Get the case+crown assembly... Salvage the dial & possibly the hands Find a movt. and I'm off with a decent beater with a nice solid feel... Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm





















[i'm getting into this watch thing now!!!!!]

Joli.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

Regarding the box of knackered 6309 watches, they are not for sale at this time. Besides which they are rusty, crowns do not screw down and all the movements are in bits or have parts missing. I'm keeping them for a while longer for parts.

Thank's for everyones interest in these.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Soon even the parts will be worth a mint


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Just trawled through all this and all I can say is GULP.

The thing I always bear in mind is that watches, whilst great fun to own, treasure and even collect, are just that.

Watches.

I sometimes think too much knowledge can spoil an enjoyable hobby.

Oh yeah and who's to say if a watch is all original or built from parts.

I could put my 6138 Bully on ebay and advertise it for what it is and get maybe Â£100 for it.

Or.

I could put it on and say I know nothing about watches, that it surfaced during my an loft clearout and was a long lost, forgotten about 18th Birthday gift and have people tearing my arm off for it.

People believe what they want to believe.


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