# Accuracy Important To You When Purchasing A Vintage Watch?



## Ted (Oct 29, 2009)

Whenever I purchase a used vintage watch, particularly electrics on the Bay or from a dealer, I almost always have to request a timing be done. One exception is Jared, who always, very honorably, times his Hamilton Electrics to under 30 seconds plus or minus a day. Most other sellers...vague comments like "keeps time for an electric". I have been quite lucky so far with my purchases timing wise because I request timings...but it is unbelievable when the seller emails me back with a reply to the above, "It only lost 15 minutes in 6 hours!' I like to wear a watch..I certainly don't expect perfection...especially from a Hamilton Electric....but why won't people time a running watch for a day and at least let us know approximate loss or gain without me almost always having to ask? Anyone else feel the same way? Just a thought to open up a neat discussion! Finally, how accurate are other vintage electric ...from your experiences... in brands other than Hamiltons?


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## balla (Jul 31, 2008)

Ted said:


> Whenever I purchase a used vintage watch, particularly electrics on the Bay or from a dealer, I almost always have to request a timing be done. One exception is Jared, who always, very honorably, times his Hamilton Electrics to under 30 seconds plus or minus a day. Most other sellers...vague comments like "keeps time for an electric". I have been quite lucky so far with my purchases timing wise because I request timings...but it is unbelievable when the seller emails me back with a reply to the above, "It only lost 15 minutes in 6 hours!' I like to wear a watch..I certainly don't expect perfection...especially from a Hamilton Electric....but why won't people time a running watch for a day and at least let us know approximate loss or gain without me almost always having to ask? Anyone else feel the same way? Just a thought to open up a neat discussion! Finally, how accurate are other vintage electric ...from your experiences... in brands other than Hamiltons?


I agree It really annoys me when a seller says things like oh yeah it keeps great time for an vintage watch only looses 5 minutes a day(to me that is broken). Now I rarely wear one watch for longer than 12 hours in a row so as long as it keeps time to within a couple of minutes a day Im OK with it. As for my Electrics they all keep OK time when being worn my montain with an esa 9157 from 1975 keeps really good time loosing less than 3 seconds a day. and the rest(mainly Timex) are all good enough for a couple of days without a reset I can tolerate +/- 1 min or so. I sometimes think sellers don't think watches kept time well before quartz or they are just trying to hide what they know is not great time keeping


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

My goal on a Hamilton Electric is to have it keep time to within 1 minute per day. This is an accuracy rate of 99.93%. I can live with that. A half minute a day is very good. Some will even do better than that.

My assumption though, when I buy an electric watch, is that I will have to service and regulate it. You would do well to factor that into your buying decisions.

Whenever I sell a watch I know what it will do in terms of running. Again, a minute a day for a vintage watch is, in my opinion, reasonable. With wear, a shortage of parts etc. I think many times that will be as good as it is going to get.

If Jarett is reading this (nice to see yourself being complimented) be sure to tell the group about your new purchase.


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## harleymanstan (May 29, 2009)

I certainly do appreciate the compliment. I, too get frustrated when I purchase a watch, especially an electric watch, to find that what was expressed as "keeping excellent or good time," is often far from that.

After I service my watches, I time them all by hand. I don't have a timing machine. I usually regulate them in the dial up position first, then test them on my wrist. Unfortunately, some balances seem to have lost their "adjusted to position" claim over the years. I'm not sure if it is due to wear to the contacts, people "fiddling" with them or what. More often than not, a watch will lose time when worn if this is the case. Sometimes it's not enough to make much of a difference, and I try to adjust it so it falls in the middle, running slightly fast lying flat, and slightly slow on the wrist.

I have quite a collection of balances that run, but don't satisfy me when it comes to accuracy. I hold on to them in the hope that one day I can figure out what they need to run well in a watch.

Often in the 505's, trading the balance to a different watch can make a difference. I'm sure this must be due to the contact pin making contact with the index wheel in a slightly different place. Rene refers to this in his book. It is a way to start wear on the contact in a new place and essentially give the balance new life. Rene and Paul have both told me they feel that many balances which run fast do so because the wear to the contact pin causes an imperceptible to the naked eye catch in the balance when it contacts the index wheel which interferes with its free swing, and actually increases the watch rate. I have definitely seen this, but some of my "fast 505's" show little wear to the contact pins, and still run fast. Often times this catch is very perceptible to the naked eye and will completely stop the balance hung on the index wheel.

Anyway, it's frustrating at times to have a balance that you can't get to run properly, but I guess it's all part of the challenge of working on these old watches. The rewards when you clean one up, and it fires up and runs great, is worth all of the headaches of the rest.

I would be interested to hear any other input Paul or Rene might have on the subject.

As for the reference Martinus made to my recent purchase, I'm pretty excited about it, and will be posting pictures of it, and another watch I recently acquired soon.

harleymanstan


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Once I've cleaned and shined one of my Leccy TIMEX, I often find a straight fire up on a new cell will give me within a couple of minutes per day, and I will try a slight poke with a sharp stick to see if I can get it any better. :yes:

I'm not entirely sure about electronic timing machines, I tend to think they may provide an accurate prediction of timekeeping - *AT THE TIME* of timing, which cannot always accurately reflect what may happen over a 24 hour or longer period of *real* use on someone's wrist. I *do* recognise they are a very useful tool for a busy watchmaker, rather than relying on a pencil and paper and timing over a few days till it's gotten right! :yes:

But then I can take those days to do it manually, and again if it ain't right the first time, I'm not beholden to a customer who wants his watch back yesterday









I follow my Dad's procedures for timing, I remember him playing with fixing clocks and apply the same principle he did to the timing job, works for me most if not all of the time


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## Ted (Oct 29, 2009)

harleymanstan said:


> I certainly do appreciate the compliment. I, too get frustrated when I purchase a watch, especially an electric watch, to find that what was expressed as "keeping excellent or good time," is often far from that.
> 
> After I service my watches, I time them all by hand. I don't have a timing machine. I usually regulate them in the dial up position first, then test them on my wrist. Unfortunately, some balances seem to have lost their "adjusted to position" claim over the years. I'm not sure if it is due to wear to the contacts, people "fiddling" with them or what. More often than not, a watch will lose time when worn if this is the case. Sometimes it's not enough to make much of a difference, and I try to adjust it so it falls in the middle, running slightly fast lying flat, and slightly slow on the wrist.
> 
> ...


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## Ted (Oct 29, 2009)

Your reply was a fascinating insight into how you get your Hamilton Electrics to run so well before a sale and for your own collection. I am curious, do you ever replace the d pin contacts like Rene or the z pin contacts(very difficult) like Paul or do you mainly collect balance wheels and follow the very trying process described above? I recently had one that would not run when one hold down screw was a tad too tight. The minute the screw was loosened slightly it ran great. They are funny movements. Does the 500 wire adjustments very ever get touchy?


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## harleymanstan (May 29, 2009)

Ted said:


> Your reply was a fascinating insight into how you get your Hamilton Electrics to run so well before a sale and for your own collection. I am curious, do you ever replace the d pin contacts like Rene or the z pin contacts(very difficult) like Paul or do you mainly collect balance wheels and follow the very trying process described above? I recently had one that would not run when one hold down screw was a tad too tight. The minute the screw was loosened slightly it ran great. They are funny movements. Does the 500 wire adjustments very ever get touchy?


Hi Ted,

I don't have any D-Pins to attempt the replacement. I have a few NOS Z-Pins, but have not made the attempt yet. I guess that hearing it is difficult has made me put it off. I'll get around to it one day, I'm sure.

I'll bet the balance that was tight with the screw all the way in was on a 500 or 500A. Hamilton changed the shockproofing of the balances from an Incabloc to a Kif system which was more cost effective. I've found that balances do not always interchange well between these two systems. I'm sure Rene or Paul could explain it further.

I guess you mean by the 500 wire adjustments getting "touchy" is that they can be easily gotten out of place. If they are not touched at all, they usually do a pretty good job of staying put. However, if they are disturbed, it can spell disaster. What is worse is when someone tries to adjust them after they are out of place. If you don't know just where to put them, it's very unlikely the watch will run, and most likely, adjustment will make the problem worse, and possible break the wires.

If a person has some good basic watch skill, and is willing to read the service manuals, and follow their directions, the watches can be worked on.

Thanks,

harleymanstan


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## Andy the Squirrel (Aug 16, 2009)

If a seller doesn't say "I have found it to be accurate to within xx seconds a day" or "currently running fast/slow xx seconds a day" then really its open to interpretation. I think people are worried about stating this information because it can change like the wind and people don't like admitting that they are not as accurate as quartz watches, despite being accurate for a watch of its type.

I almost always get my watches serviced if I buy them second hand and don't know the history.


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## Ted (Oct 29, 2009)

harleymanstan said:


> Ted said:
> 
> 
> > Your reply was a fascinating insight into how you get your Hamilton Electrics to run so well before a sale and for your own collection. I am curious, do you ever replace the d pin contacts like Rene or the z pin contacts(very difficult) like Paul or do you mainly collect balance wheels and follow the very trying process described above? I recently had one that would not run when one hold down screw was a tad too tight. The minute the screw was loosened slightly it ran great. They are funny movements. Does the 500 wire adjustments very ever get touchy?
> ...


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## Ted (Oct 29, 2009)

harleymanstan said:


> Ted said:
> 
> 
> > Your reply was a fascinating insight into how you get your Hamilton Electrics to run so well before a sale and for your own collection. I am curious, do you ever replace the d pin contacts like Rene or the z pin contacts(very difficult) like Paul or do you mainly collect balance wheels and follow the very trying process described above? I recently had one that would not run when one hold down screw was a tad too tight. The minute the screw was loosened slightly it ran great. They are funny movements. Does the 500 wire adjustments very ever get touchy?
> ...


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## Ted (Oct 29, 2009)

How lucky we are to have Jarett, Paul, Rene, and Dan to be so good at working on the Hamilton Electrics for us.


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## cristina (Jun 28, 2010)

haven't think about this, when i move quickly or slowly, i just made it in the right place.


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## hamiltonelectric (Feb 27, 2010)

Once properly adjusted, the contact wires in a Hamilton 500 rarely get out of sync unless they are touched. (Contact wear is a separate issue, but 500 contacts are actually quite durable. On a bench test I ran a 500 non-stop for 7 years before the contact surfaces were too worn to work anymore.)

Years ago an engineer commented to me that the design of the Hamilton 500 contact system offered an "elegant solution to a complex problem." But, as he went on to say, what was so "elegantly" conceived conceptually was not actually very practical in a real life situation. He was right. The contact system is devilishly clever, and despite its complexity it works superbly. But out in the real world its delicacy and the precarious mounting of the wires directly adjacent to the battery clip was another story. It was (and still is) all too easy to bend or break the wires by even the tiniest slip of a finger, even for a normally careful watchmaker. For the average owner attempting his own battery replacement it spelled disaster. This problem was at least slightly alleviated in the 500A, with a simpler battery clamp, but it was not until the 505 that the issue was corrected.

The problem today, aside from normal wear, is that it is very rare to find a 500 that has not been butchered to a greater or lesser extent. Careless battery replacement continues to be an issue, but even more problematic is the simple fact that a lot of watchmakers have tinkered with these without having any understanding of how they really work. The fact that the watch is electromechanical, with a seemingly familiar gear train, led too many people to think they could figure it out without needing a manual. I can't believe some of the things I've seen done to these watches over the years. Sometimes I can figure out what the watchmaker was attempting to do, but often I'm left scratching my head.

Just yesterday I restored a 500 Pacer that was positively butchered. The essential bend near the end of the contact wire had been inexplicably straightened. The mounting posts were so chewed up from pliers that I couldn't use my normal tools on them -- they were no longer round. One post had been pressed far too deeply into the supporting plate, the other had been pulled far too high up. The wires themselves were horrifically bent and twisted. In the end I salvaged them and got everything back into shape and proper adjustment, but it took a lot of time and even more patience.

I remember talking to a watchmaker/dealer at a NAWCC show years ago, he told me that he "fixed" 500s by turning the posts of the wires back and forth until the watch started to tick. I winced. Sure, turning the post changes the position of the wire, and maybe it will end up closing the circuit, but it also changes the length of the wire, and that is a critical adjustment. Obviously, for that dealer "running" didn't mean "keeping time."

Actually, it's a testament to the durability and ingeniousness of these watches that some of them actually will run, sometimes more or less accurately, despite such bodgery. I've seen watches in which the gold tab on the balance made contact with the back of the contact wire; I've seen others in which the trip spring was missing entirely yet they still managed to run. I shake my head in wonder. By all rights, there's no way it should work, but there you go...

As Jarrett says, if you follow the manual it is possible to repair a 500. The tricky part is simply becoming familiar with how the trip spring and contact wire interact with each other. Any change to one, no matter how small, will have a major impact on the other. In my book I make the analogy of a chair with one short leg, so the owner cuts the other legs to level it, only to find it still rocks. So he cuts again, and again. It's the same with the 500. It takes some understanding as well as practice to learn how to balance out all the different interrelated facets.

Another point I make in my book is that Hamilton inadvertently created trouble by emphasizing contact adjustment above anything else. Over half of the repair manual is devoted to the subject. It makes sense in that contact adjustment is so very critical, and also so complex. It takes a lot of pages and illustrations to fully explain the process. But their emphasis on this topic was so intense that many watchmakers automatically assumed that if a watch had a problem it simply had to be due to contact adjustment, and so they would immediately jump in and start tinkering with the wires instead of considering other issues. Also, since even those watchmakers who had taken Hamilton's mail-order course saw very few Electrics cross their bench as compared to the mechanical watches that dominated the era, they simply didn't have much opportunity to practice their newly-learned skills. As I wrote in my book, "Very often the result was that the wires, which had been in perfect adjustment, ended up off-kilter and the watch worse off than before the watchmaker started working on it. It is very easy to understand their resulting frustration."

Although it sounds like a clichÃ©, working on these watches requires a "holistic" approach, taking the entire movement into consideration, not just the wires -- even though they are unquestionably the single most important part of the watch.

For me, even after more than 20 years of restoring these watches, I still get a frission of delight every time I take a horrifically bodgered 500 and bring it back to life, running strong and accurately. It really is an elegant design and I never tire of working with them. And for sure, it gets easier after you've worked on several thousand of them.


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## martinus_scriblerus (Sep 29, 2008)

hamiltonelectric said:


> Once properly adjusted, the contact wires in a Hamilton 500 rarely get out of sync unless they are touched. (Contact wear is a separate issue, but 500 contacts are actually quite durable. On a bench test I ran a 500 non-stop for 7 years before the contact surfaces were too worn to work anymore.)


That you, Rene? Can't imagine who else this could be. I'm delighted to see you on this forum.

Dave


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

hamiltonelectric said:


> As I wrote in my book





martinus_scriblerus said:


> That you, Rene? Can't imagine who else this could be. I'm delighted to see you on this forum.


 :thumbsup:


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## Ted (Oct 29, 2009)

Thank you very much for your wonderful contribution concerning the 500 wires, Rene. We all sincerely appreciate it. Your opinions based on experience with working with these movements, as are those of Silver Hawks and Harleymanstans (all master Hamilton Electric rebuilders) are greatly appreciated, as always.


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## harleymanstan (May 29, 2009)

Ted said:


> Thank you very much for your wonderful contribution concerning the 500 wires, Rene. We all sincerely appreciate it. Your opinions based on experience with working with these movements, as are those of Silver Hawks and Harleymanstans (all master Hamilton Electric rebuilders) are greatly appreciated, as always.


Hi Ted,

I appreciate even being mentioned in the same breath with Rene and Paul.

Rene has single-handedly pretty much saved the Hamilton Electric from extinction. If it had not been for him, collectors like me would not have known where to start when it came to the Hamilton Electric. His book is such a great source of information on these watches, and we all owe him our gratitude for writing it.

Paul has such a wide range of electric watch knowledge that it stuns me. He knows so much about so many different electric watches. He is truly a credit to the electric watch world as well.

I have met both Rene and Paul in person, and have great admiration for both. :notworthy:

Thanks,

harleymanstan


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