# Japanese watches versus Swiss



## watchit (Sep 22, 2003)

Hi All,

I recently joined this wonderful forum and can say that the topics covered and discussions are really great.

Firstly, I think Roy's site is absolutely fantastic, run and managed by a great guy.

I was priveledged to recently acquire Roy's Seiko World-timer which when I wore to work got all my colleagues very interested since they had never seen anything like it. This brings me to the discussion of Seikos versus Swiss brands.

In the past, I suppose mainly due to my own ignorance, I have always collected Swiss brands like Omega, Longines - looking back now I reckon it was because there was a certain feeling of safety in that you were buying a sure thing.

I have now started being interested in Seikos and have a 6138 chrono together with Roy's world-timer.

Do you think there exists a sort of snob value amongst collectors in that people regard Swiss brands to be head and shoulders above, say, Seikos? From my very limited knowledge, the vintage Seikos are very fine timepieces but unfortunately the watch collecting 'society' has perhaps deemed them to be inferior to the Swiss.

All the best to you all.

Chris.


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## chrisb (Feb 26, 2003)

Here we go









Andy, are you ready?


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## dashcracker (Sep 1, 2003)

Hello Watchit,

just MHO for what it's worth...........buy what YOU like, it's your money isn't it?

Regards

dashcracker


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

OOooooh my good gawd!!!!!!!!!!...........excuse me while I go for a lie down


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Hi Chris.

Your probably wondering what on earth you have said to get this reaction.

Your question is relevant enough but unfortunately some of us remember the animosity this subject caused in the early days of the forum and have no desire to go there again. It really did turn ugly. Mainly due to misunderstandings I feel.

Please do not take offence. ANYWAY.

I'm a big fan of old Seiko chrono's myself.

I have a fair few, mostly the 6139 version.

I love them.

You really do get a lot of watch for your money and Roy is probably one of the best, (if not THE best),source of them in the UK. Believe me it's true. I know  Spare as well









Lets have a look then Chris.


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## watchit (Sep 22, 2003)

Hi All,

Apologies if I unwittingly touched upon a sore point ref Japanese v Swiss - I really

meant no harm was just trying to get members' viewpoints.

I find the old Seikos really value for money and solidly built.

Regards

Chris.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

There is no need to apologise.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

No need to apologise Chris...............BIG old past arguments.

Suffice to say as an Omega man who argued against Seiko's, I know have several, including: SKX779, 3 off 5's, a Sports 5, and a rare Dr's chronograph.

I would love a Seiko Grand, a certain 150m divers like Martin Sheen had in Apocolypse Now, and one or two of the far eastern type you can't get here.

It's really all down to personal choice/taste, but I have a special liking for Oris/Tissot mechanicals, and some old Omegas.

Some of the Seiko's are very collectable, and going up in value. The older chronos. and Bellmatics are very tasty.


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## watchit (Sep 22, 2003)

Thanks for the vote of confidence everyone









I fully understand that this type of discussion can sometimes lead to bad feelings - especially when people feel passionately about a particular brand.

Anyway (and on a rather different note) do you lot remember Roy's lovely pics of 2

Seikos - one World-timer and the other Navigator. The World-timer I was fortunate enough to acquire from Roy last week (a real beauty), but the Navigator is such a

gorgeous looking piece!!!!


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## 036 (Feb 27, 2003)

There have been a few heated discussions about this but hopefully this will not go the same way due to change of personnel as it were...

I think most of the active members here are pretty broad minded about it. My own small gathering is probably 50/50 Japanese/Swiss.

There are some people who find the appeal of the big Swiss names a draw in itself, I must admit if I see a Heuer for sale or an Omega the name does encourage me to have a look. The Swiss have played a huge part in the history of timekeeping so it is nice to own a part of that. While there is an elelment of "paying for the brand" there are a lot of very good value Omega for instance. Part of what you are paying for is reputation and history.

On the other hand there is no denying the value for money in Seiko mechanicals for instance. If you are broad minded about it and assess each watch on its own merits Seiko have made so many great watches, in terms of design / looks / robustness / logevity and all the things we value in a watch.



> a certain feeling of safety in that you were buying a sure thing


I know what you are saying but I think looking at it objectively you can have that feeling of safety with Japanese watches just as much if not more than Swiss: as I say assess each individual watch on its merits.


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## MikeM (Jun 21, 2003)

Hi watchit

Sorry if this is changing the theme of your posting and I am not sure if this is the done thing as I am fairly new to the forum.

You mentioned the Your worldtime you got from Roy.

I have the same model but am not sure how to set the time in the different zones.

I must be getting a bit dim in my old age but I just can't work it out.

Maybe its faulty but the world zone ring turns when the crown is pushed in and turned, is this OK ??

The date changes on the 1st click-out when turned.

The time sets and red indicator hand moves together on the 2nd click out.

Any help from anyone will be received with thanks.

For what its worth my opinion re your question is whatever turns you on!!

Cheers all.

MikeM


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Chris, (watchit),

Any chance of a picture of one of your watches.


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## Sargon (Feb 24, 2003)

I've seen many tried and true Swiss watch collectors discover Seiko and other Japanese brands only to be amazed by their quality.

Some of this "snobbery" was started by the Swiss industry itself. I would like to read a good history of this, and it's all from memory but I seem to recall that the observatory competitions were getting heated in the late 60's as Seiko had been entering and winning. Swiss watch companies tried to get them barred as they were not Swiss, but failed and ended up boycotting the competitions. Then Seiko started sending movements to COSC to be certified and the Swiss watch industry banded together to get COSC not to accept them. So Seiko started their own Certification process that was more stringent than COSC's.

I may be making a lot of that up as my memory isn't all that great, can anyone qualify? In any event the Swiss have managed to establish a certain legitimacy that is felt even today. Seiko and Citizen have done a huge amount of R&D and most Swiss companies can't boast the amount of "in house" work they do.

These Japanese companies have been firmly entrenched in the "budget" market for so long it's hard to get out. I think Seiko's high end range would do much better if they got rid of the name Seiko alltogether. King Seiko and Grand Seiko etc should have an entirely different brand name, that way their association with inexpensive watches wouldn't hinder them.

Having said all that I would be as happy as a clam if Seiko decided to use a hackable 28.8 bph windable movement in their entry level watches.


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Sargon said:


> Swiss watch companies tried to get them barred as they were not Swiss, but failed and ended up boycotting the competitions. Then Seiko started sending movements to COSC to be certified and the Swiss watch industry banded together to get COSC not to accept them. So Seiko started their own Certification process that was more stringent than COSC's.
> 
> I may be making a lot of that up as my memory isn't all that great.


 I have heard this as well.

In the end I suppose you could say that the Japanese had the last say in the matter.

They marketed quartz and obliterated the Swiss watchmaking industry overnight.

I'm sure it wasn't intended a a two fingered salute but it must sure as hell of seemed like it to the Swiss watchmaking establishment.

Truth be told I think this is a significant cause of the anti Japanese watch feelings among traditional watch enthusiasts.

It's still a painful memory for some.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Hi watchit,

Iâ€™m with dashcraker here, buy what you like and enjoy it. I have posted pictures of humble Timex, Russian and minor makes of watches on the forum and never met any animosity from its members.

This, perhaps, proves what many people have intimated. That this is the best watch forum on the internet. Now that should upset some non-members!









I would say that the members of this forum respect honesty, enthusiasm and an interest in the subject rather than any other criterion.

Japanese watches? I love â€˜em, along with most other nationalities. 

Cheers,

Stan.


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

Mike,

Yours sounds like it is finctioning perfectly.

The crown should move the outer ring. The GMT hand is not adjustable. Turn the ring so the hour hand lines up with the timezone you are in, and then you can decipher the times in the other cities. Because the outer ring does not rotate on it's own, everytime you want to do a calculation, you must rotate the ring.


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## 036 (Feb 27, 2003)

SeikoWorld timers: so how is the GMT hand set in relation to the main hour hand?

Si


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## MikeM (Jun 21, 2003)

Thanks for the info Roy.

I don't know why but after a longtime liking for Accutrons & swiss mechanical watches I have now got a thing about older Seiko's (bell-matics & world-timers).

Maybe at the end of the month if you still have a bullhead left !!!

Cheers









MikeM


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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

Si Wrote :



> SeikoWorld timers: so how is the GMT hand set in relation to the main hour hand?
> 
> Si


It is'nt Si, the GMT hand cannot be set independantly of the hour hand, it just shows the time in 24 hour format.

Mike Wrote :



> Maybe at the end of the month if you still have a bullhead left !!!


Only one left now.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Tissot and Oris seem to be climbing back. Tissot have brought out some classy autos over here that were previously only available in Europe, like the Le Locle, and Oris are also bringing out some new models after a surge in sales for them.

I just think its a pity that Rotary don't do this, and bring out some new autos.

I don't think I've ever seen a make decline so much as the way Rotary have, which is a pity, because there are some nice old ones around with really decent movements. It would be great to see more of the overseas Seikos come over here too, instead of their misguided decision to concentrate on the sale of kinetics over here!!


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)

Griff said:


> Tissot have brought out some classy autos over here that were previously only available in Europe, like the Le Locle


 Griff.

More info please


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Andy,

Le Locle already on sale it seems, but the new Heritage look tasty:-

tissot


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## Andy (Feb 23, 2003)




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## Roy (Feb 23, 2003)

I like those.









I have had a few older ones with that dial style and the Roman numerals but not chronometers.


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