# Submariner Auto Homages: Which Is The Best Value?



## Chromejob

I've been toying with the idea of a Submariner repro/lookalike that I could fit with the correct NATO "Goldfinger" strap. A classic look that few aficionados (as well as spy movie geeks) would appreciate. The idea of a replica Rolex doesn't appeal to me, due to the usual questions: "is it real," "why wear a fake," "you snobby nob." Besides, for the same money, you can get a watch with a known movement (not luck of the draw). Based on some casual reading here, I gather that some of the "homage" models are in fact fine watches, come with quality movements,... and that's not even counting some of the small watchmakers who make similar models in the $1000-2500 range (at which point, I ask, why not find a vintage authentic Rolex to spiff up).

Sounds like the *Invicta 8926 *has a Miyota (Japanese) movement that moves 6 beats per second, winds counterclockwise only, and has a very nice solid (not folded) bracelet. A bargain for US$70-96. Looks pretty similar to a Submariner. It seems that, unless you get a lemon, this is a very good watch for the price, never mind the appearance.










The* Orient 2ER00001B * runs on a a higher quality (?) Japanese movement, also looks very close. Beyond that ... please educate me. Roughly US$126 here. Orient has some very attractive two-tone (2ER00004D) and two-tone with blue dial (2ER00003B) models for a wee bit more, should one wish to deviate from Goldfinger-authenticity for the sake of dressiness.
























The *Invicta 9937* appears to be a similar case to the 8926, slightly smaller bezel numbers, same (?) high quality bracelet, but with a Swiss movement ticking at a more accurate 8 beats per second, auto winds both ways. Roughly US$290, a bit pricier, but with a movement that's worth the expense(?). The Invictas appear to have a more discreet emblem on the dial.

















Now, I thought Invicta was a cheap barnd, based on the lower priced, gaudy stuff I've seen in stores here. If it's a reputable and reliable Swiss marque, it's something I'm just now learning. Again, feel free to tutor me.


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## DMP

The Grovana Coral Reef and the Steinhart/Debaufre Ocean series are top quality "homages" with Swiss ETA 2824 movements, but expect to pay a lot more for them new than the Invicta and Orients.


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## PaulBoy

DMP said:


> The Grovana Coral Reef and the Steinhart/Debaufre Ocean series are top quality "homages" with Swiss ETA 2824 movements, but expect to pay a lot more for them new than the Invicta and Orients.


Good call DMP - I've had a Grovana & quality is excellent - The Steinhart would be up here with it too - Either of these would be my homage of choice ... Paul :thumbsup:

PS - The Alpha 'Sub' would be on my list if budget was tight though I'd be looking for a decent bracelet as theirs are a bit ropey!


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## stevieb

Hi Dave,

I can't really comment on the merits of either as i have only ever had a pre 1991 Invicta which was stolen while i went swimming 20 years ago.

It came with a nice Victorinox pen knife type case opener which i still have.

But back to the reason i am posting. My son wanted a recommendation for a cheepish watch for work.

While doing my reaserch i found Invicta Watch Group has an interesting wikipedia page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invicta_Watch_Group.

From that i think if the choise is Invicta, it would have to be the Swiss made one.

Regards steve


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## Ventura

The Marcello C Nettuno N3 is the best I've ever had.


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## MarkDavey

Any of the above would make a great choice and here's another worth considering.... I have this Sandoz sub which is very nicely put together and has a 25 jewelled ETA movement. Very good VFM IMHO - have fun choosing


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## clockworks

Surely the best Sub homage is a Tudor?


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## kc104

I have the INvicta 8926.

You best bargain if you want this one is to keep an eye on amazon.com - got mine for 70 dollars. If you live in the USA and can get free shipping, then this is good vfm.

I also have an Alpha explorer 2 (not in the same league as the INvicta) The Invicta has the Miyota movement (subsidery company of citizen- it is a good movement).

Other homage watches mentioned here are also good but the price has to be kept in mind, as the invicta will probably be the cheapest one of all.

However, some peoples experience with invicta is not so good.


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## mach 0.0013137

I`ve owned a couple of Orient `subs`, very nice well made watches though strangely they somehow didn`t feel quite the same quality as other Orients I have.

I`ve not owned or handled the Invicta version but I have had other Invictas & good though they are I think Orient watches are better.

I briefly had a Grovana & as has been said previously it was excellent quality however for some reason I can`t quite explain I didn`t gel with it & decided to flip almost imediately. I seem to remember that the case was different to the `sub` it felt more bloated, now the fact that it was different didn`t matter but somehow in hand & particularly on the wrist I just didn`t like it :no:


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## yddraig

I have an Orient, not the sub style but the Mako, and I think it's fantastic and it's found it's way onto my wrist more often than most of the others. Highly recommended.

G


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## kc104

I totally agree with mach. The orient sub is more expensive than the invicta but is a lot better. However, I would also note that the invicta looks very close to the rolex, more so than the orient, so if you are looking for something that is close to the rolex sub, then still invicta. The orient (unless I am wrong) is double the price of the invicta. (worth the money though).


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## langtoftlad

I have the Orient and the Alpha - both excellent in their way, but for me, the orient is just "better" all round, a little more 'sophisticated', hard to explain.




























Best value? Well the Alpha is third of the price - so nothwithstanding the Orient is a "better" watch, the Alpha is better value without doubt.


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## BlueKnight

Ventura said:


> The Marcello C Nettuno N3 is the best I've ever had.


That would be my choice. I have the Tridente which is bigger and nothing can touch it for the price. You can also choose the color of your bezel and dial. They'll even fit different hands if that's what you want.

Tridente on the left. Pic from the net.


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## Stuart Davies

Robert Poseidon (Google 'Robert Uhren') - I have no experiance of the brand but it has to be one of the coolest names out there! :thumbup:

Subs come in at 315 euros.

YouTube


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## PhilM

You forgot to mention the SD, that's a Sub homage h34r:


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## Speech

I'd go for a steinhart/debaufre ocean... there was a nice "vintage red" model steiny on the sales forums too i think. (don't quote me on that)

Anyway! good luck with the search!

Nick


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## Rotundus

BlueKnight said:


> Ventura said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Marcello C Nettuno N3 is the best I've ever had.
> 
> 
> 
> That would be my choice. I have the Tridente which is bigger and nothing can touch it for the price. You can also choose the color of your bezel and dial. They'll even fit different hands if that's what you want.
> 
> Tridente on the left. Pic from the net.
Click to expand...

yup the nettuno 3 is superb (the tridente is just a sqeak too big for my taste) had one, loved it & moved it on for what i paid for it with no problem.

and just different enough to be good in its own right.

this is the watch that stopped me buying a sub because it just wasnt worth the extra dosh.

pity marcello c dont do an explorer h34r:










i had the invicta bi-metal the op showed - bought here used - a superb beater and not too blingy.

a great used buy now that invicta seem to be over their quality issues with crowns/stems and tubes and so forth.


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## MarkF

Ah, the weird world of sub-homages/fakes. 

I had an 8926, it was bought for me about 2001. I was very impressed with the build quality, the fit and finish was A1, easily on par with any Seiko or Citizen that I have owned. The bracelet was the best that I have ever owned and that includes a Deepsea. I was already familiar with the Miyota, a proven, reliable movement. I wore it mainly as a holiday watch and after maybe 20 holidays of beach and sea use it remained 90+% like new.

I sold it on this forum as an O&W took over holiday duties and the over use of the "Invicta" logo drove me crackers.

Best value watch that I have ever owned or am ever likely to ever own. I don't think that you will be able to say the same about a Â£200-Â£400 sub-a-like.


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## malus65

I would go for Orient. Is a manufacture and nice looking also. Wich type is a matter of taste... :umnik2:


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## jbw

Stuart Davies said:


> Robert Poseidon (Google 'Robert Uhren') - I have no experiance of the brand but it has to be one of the coolest names out there! :thumbup:
> 
> Subs come in at 315 euros.
> 
> YouTube


 Had my poseidon for over a year now...good value and time keeping is excellent

Runs at +2 sec a day.


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## Andy the Squirrel

I have recently aquired an Alpha Sub










Feels really comfortable on the wrist, really like the bracelet although the clasp is a bit cheap. Unscrewing the crown isn't very smooth, handwinding and setting the time feels gritty. Movement is cheap as you can get, doesn't beat very fast. The date wheel isn't printed very well and the cyclops does a really bad job of magnifying it. Hands are lumed in green, markers are lumed with less bright white lume. Apart from those niggles, it keeps good time, it feels good on the wrist and looks pretty good. Not bad for a toy.


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## Chromejob

langtoftlad said:


> I have the Orient and the Alpha - both excellent in their way, but for me, the orient is just "better" all round, a little more 'sophisticated', hard to explain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best value? Well the Alpha is third of the price - so nothwithstanding the Orient is a "better" watch, the Alpha is better value without doubt.


Interesting ... in your macro shots, the Alpha has some better detailing to my eye ... finder font on the bezel, nice silver surround on the bezel's "00" lumin mark, more delicate coin-edge.

So far I understand that the Orient is 2x that of the Invicta 8926, the 8926 is a Miyota 6bps movement ... the Orient also has a Japanese movement, right? Based on what I'm reading here, one could get an Orient,... or graduate upwards to a Swiss movement, with the 9937, or these other fine watches everyone's suggested. I appreciate all the tips, it's nice to find so many that are good VFM. 



Speech said:


> I'd go for a steinhart/debaufre ocean... there was a nice "vintage red" model steiny on the sales forums too i think. (don't quote me on that)


Thanks, Nick; yes, that's one of the models that got me scratching my chin....


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## Grosvenor

This thread makes me very angry.

Angry because of the word "homage" when in fact they are nothing more than a cheap rip off of a classic design.

At least let's be honest and admit what they are.

Homage ?

Give me a break.

They are cheap immitations.

Fakes.


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## BlueKnight

Grosvenor said:


> This thread makes me very angry.
> 
> Angry because of the word "homage" when in fact they are nothing more than a cheap rip off of a classic design.
> 
> At least let's be honest and admit what they are.
> 
> Homage ?
> 
> Give me a break.
> 
> They are cheap immitations.
> 
> Fakes.


Tsk...Tsk.. Still reeling from your bitchslapping I see... I'll give you a break and not speak my mind How's that Susy?


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## Chromejob

Grosvenor said:


> This thread makes me very angry.
> 
> Angry because of the word "homage" when in fact they are nothing more than a cheap rip off of a classic design.
> 
> At least let's be honest and admit what they are.
> 
> Homage ?
> 
> Give me a break.
> 
> They are cheap immitations.
> 
> Fakes.


I already registered your opinion for you, spell check and all, no post req'd. It's not Swiss, f*** it. It's a Swiss movement, but not a Rolex, s**** it. It looks nice, keeps accurate time, but cost < US$4000, it's trash.

Yeah, whatever. Don't let it ruin your day.


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## funtimefrankie

Grosvenor,

Just because a watch resembles a sub doesn't make it a fake or a rip off. Producing an exact copy down to the letter makes it a fake/rip off/copy/snide, call it waht you will. In fact if you want to take it t the extreme why not say all watches, clocks, chairs, cars, hats, or even pieces of paper with that glue that doesn't stick together but aren't made by the original manufacture are fake. Bloody hell you may as well sue me because I've called a personal stereo a Walkman or a vacume cleaner a Hoover. All watches really follow the same design principles as do many other things. The submariner is just one of those designs that is very ergonomic and practical. Form follows function. I'm sure if we were to look back on things we'd also see the sub mirrored other designs too. Thinking about it one of my Ball watches has a case that could easily be mistaken for an explorer I. Hey look at some of the cases on Roy's watches and they are the same. Rolex just hit pay dirt with the subs design.

Look at it this way just because it doesn't say Heinz on the tin doesn't mean you can't have baked beans on the inside.

Frank

Edited to say sorry for the rant


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## Fulminata

Hey, I'm not angry because I quite like the generic sub look too, but I ended up with one of these as a credible and affordable alternative...










Just a thought


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## Stuart Davies

Grosvenor said:


> This thread makes me very angry.
> 
> Angry because of the word "homage" when in fact they are nothing more than a cheap rip off of a classic design.
> 
> At least let's be honest and admit what they are.
> 
> Homage ?
> 
> Give me a break.
> 
> They are cheap immitations.
> 
> Fakes.


 :dummyspit: Calm down dear!


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## BondandBigM

funtimefrankie said:


> Rolex just hit pay dirt with the subs design.


Exactly *THEIR* design


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## Clum

Wasn't the sub a 'homage' of the blancpain fifty fathoms?


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## Phillionaire

I've got the 8926 Invicta as well. Bought off amazon, tho they stung me for postage, cos of the other side of the world and all. Great watch, looks nice, I like that its got a good mvmt (just picked up a citizen diver, similar mvmt) not just some chinese internals. They gave me a 5 year warranty, which I might use soon because I think I might be taking some thread off when I unscrew the crown. Consider buying a watch winder with your left over dollars...

Still, she's no sub with the green bezel, that's for sure, right Mr Bond?? :notworthy:


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## Sancho Panza

Speech said:


> I'd go for a steinhart/debaufre ocean... there was a nice "vintage red" model steiny on the sales forums too i think. (don't quote me on that)
> 
> Anyway! good luck with the search!
> 
> Nick


I like the look of the Steinhart, does anyone know how the quality stacks up against the others mentioned here?


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## mel

Clum said:


> Wasn't the sub a 'homage' of the blancpain fifty fathoms?


Commander Bond, I hope you will refute this (clearly ambiguous) statement and correctly admit that Rolex are a very fine homage to the Classic Alpha Submariner range - I mean they even copied the colours :lol:

Grosvenor, you've hurt me to the quick! :sadwalk: Does that mean I have to dispose of the entire contents of my Sub-a-like display case 'cos they're trash? {Oh, and let's not forget all those public clocks that look like Big Ben - have they to be scrapped to save money under the new UK ConDem Coalition Government? ) :hypocrite:


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## AlbertaTime

automatic...1980s vintage, if you can find one....


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## Grosvenor

*Grosvenor,*

*
*

*
Just because a watch resembles a sub doesn't make it a fake or a rip off. Producing an exact copy down to the letter makes it a fake/rip off/copy/snide, call it waht you will. In fact if you want to take it t the extreme why not say all watches, clocks, chairs, cars, hats, or even pieces of paper with that glue that doesn't stick together but aren't made by the original manufacture are fake. *

That's a bad analogy.

All car makers who make hatchbacks, design them using the same basic criteria and principles, but yet they manage to make their take on the theme different to everyone elses.

These Sub rip offs are fake in all but name, and are shamelessly copied from the Rolex.

Have a look at the high end brands.

Rolex, Omega, Patek etc.

Do they copy each others design ?

No.

Only the cheap brands do that.

Personally I don't see why, if you love the design so much, you don't just buy the real thing and have done with it.

Yes it's expensive, but costs no more than the first years depreciation on a new car, and you'll have something to show for it, rather then throwing money away.

Not only that, it will be something you can hand over to future generations and will be a treasured pocession for generations to come.

But you go ahead, and buy your cheap immitation if that's what floats your boat.


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## howie77

Grosvenor said:


> Well, I am new to all this but having just aquired a nice watch I've got the bug and this place came up on a google search.
> 
> I should like your opinions on my aquisition.
> 
> I have a splendid new Kraug Bauman Ocean Master.
> 
> I was very lucky.
> 
> I managed to negotiate a special price of Â£500.
> 
> These normally retail for well over Â£1000 so you can imagine how happy I am.
> 
> If anyone else owns one of these I'd love to hear from you.
> 
> Maybe we could start our own little club :thumbsup:
> 
> Anyway I'm learning and might even think of getting something else.
> 
> All the best.


http://www.thewatchf...showtopic=52971



Grosvenor said:


> *
> *Have a look at the high end brands.


presumably also including your Krug Baumen within that...









*
*


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## BlueKnight

Grosvenor said:


> *
> *That's a bad analogy.
> 
> All car makers who make hatchbacks, design them using the same basic criteria and principles, but yet they manage to make their take on the theme different to everyone elses.
> 
> These Sub rip offs are fake in all but name, and are shamelessly copied from the Rolex.
> 
> Have a look at the high end brands.
> 
> Rolex, Omega, Patek etc.
> 
> Do they copy each others design ?
> 
> No.
> 
> Only the cheap brands do that.
> 
> Personally I don't see why, if you love the design so much, you don't just buy the real thing and have done with it.
> 
> Yes it's expensive, but costs no more than the first years depreciation on a new car, and you'll have something to show for it, rather then throwing money away.
> 
> Not only that, it will be something you can hand over to future generations and will be a treasured pocession for generations to come.
> 
> But you go ahead, and buy your cheap immitation if that's what floats your boat.


This is for you little







in case you missed it.


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## thunderbolt

howie77 said:


> Grosvenor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I am new to all this but having just aquired a nice watch I've got the bug and this place came up on a google search.
> 
> I should like your opinions on my aquisition.
> 
> I have a splendid new Kraug Bauman Ocean Master.
> 
> I was very lucky.
> 
> I managed to negotiate a special price of Â£500.
> 
> These normally retail for well over Â£1000 so you can imagine how happy I am.
> 
> If anyone else owns one of these I'd love to hear from you.
> 
> Maybe we could start our own little club :thumbsup:
> 
> Anyway I'm learning and might even think of getting something else.
> 
> All the best.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.thewatchf...showtopic=52971
> 
> 
> 
> Grosvenor said:
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *Have a look at the high end brands.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> presumably also including your Krug Baumen within that...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *
Click to expand...

Krug Baumen, well there's class look you.


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## Grosvenor

That was my way of testing your knowledge, and I'm pleased to say that on the whole, you passed with flying colours.

I do like to make sure I'm in the company of people with a modicum of knowledge.

I see though that I'm going to have my work cut out educating one or two of you, but one can only do one's best.


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## Kutusov

Hi,

I've also been looking at the Invicta and AFAIK they come with a "regular" (?)or "coin" bezel. I can see the diference between the two on this watch, but what exacly is a coin bezel?


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## Chromejob

Invicta makes several with differing bezels, I don't have the model numbers offhand. 8926, 8927, 8932, 8928, 8922(?)? IIUC coin edge is the ridged version as the Rolex and other subs illustrate. I think the beveled edge looks better on a two-tone watch, but that's my taste only.

.... Oh, Sea-gull made one, hrm....



Phillionaire said:


> ... Still, she's no sub with the green bezel, that's for sure, right Mr Bond?? :notworthy:


Green? I think you might be watching a very faded film, chum. 

Grosvenor, you're becoming insulting, and down that path you can only educate new acquaintances on one subject, exclusively. ALL ELSE, please stop encouraging this user, it spoils an otherwise informative thread.... Thanks.


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## Kutusov

David Spalding said:


> Invicta makes several with differing bezels, I don't have the model numbers offhand. 8926, 8927, 8932, 8928, 8922(?)? IIUC coin edge is the ridged version as the Rolex and other subs illustrate. I think the beveled edge looks better on a two-tone watch, but that's my taste only.


Ok, I see... Thanks!


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## mach 0.0013137

Grosvenor said:


> That was my way of testing your knowledge, and I'm pleased to say that on the whole, you passed with flying colours.
> 
> I do like to make sure I'm in the company of people with a modicum of knowledge.
> 
> I see though that I'm going to have my work cut out educating one or two of you, but one can only do one's best.


 :Troll:

I`m sorry, you`re obviously far to good for this forum, maybe you should look elsewhere to get your kicks


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## Dunnster

I have an orient 2ER00003B and it keeps time to within COSC and is good quality for the price. I really would recommend it and so far, I think the movement and auto wind are excellent quality.


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## aliasmarlow

How about Milsub inspired?










Rgds

Jim


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## funtimefrankie

Grosvenor said:


> *Grosvenor,*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Just because a watch resembles a sub doesn't make it a fake or a rip off. Producing an exact copy down to the letter makes it a fake/rip off/copy/snide, call it waht you will. In fact if you want to take it t the extreme why not say all watches, clocks, chairs, cars, hats, or even pieces of paper with that glue that doesn't stick together but aren't made by the original manufacture are fake. *
> 
> That's a bad analogy.
> 
> All car makers who make hatchbacks, design them using the same basic criteria and principles, but yet they manage to make their take on the theme different to everyone elses.
> 
> These Sub rip offs are fake in all but name, and are shamelessly copied from the Rolex.
> 
> Have a look at the high end brands.
> 
> Rolex, Omega, Patek etc.
> 
> Do they copy each others design ?
> 
> No.
> 
> Only the cheap brands do that.
> 
> Personally I don't see why, if you love the design so much, you don't just buy the real thing and have done with it.
> 
> Yes it's expensive, but costs no more than the first years depreciation on a new car, and you'll have something to show for it, rather then throwing money away.
> 
> Not only that, it will be something you can hand over to future generations and will be a treasured pocession for generations to come.
> 
> But you go ahead, and buy your cheap immitation if that's what floats your boat.


You know what, it probably was. But to be honest I don't give two shakes of a monkeys gonads. If someone wants a subalike and can't afford the real thing or can but would rather use the money for something more important in their lives well then let them!

Oh and as for you testing us, well I for one find that rather offensive I joined this forum to not only learn more about watches but hopefully build friendships too and I don't bloody well need people trying to test me!

Now whilst this might get me in trouble here why don't you go forth and multiply you person of dubious schooling and questionable parentage!

And that as they say is that.

Sorry guys if I've stepped over the line


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## funtimefrankie

funtimefrankie said:


> Grosvenor said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Grosvenor,*
> 
> *
> *
> 
> *
> Just because a watch resembles a sub doesn't make it a fake or a rip off. Producing an exact copy down to the letter makes it a fake/rip off/copy/snide, call it waht you will. In fact if you want to take it t the extreme why not say all watches, clocks, chairs, cars, hats, or even pieces of paper with that glue that doesn't stick together but aren't made by the original manufacture are fake. *
> 
> That's a bad analogy.
> 
> All car makers who make hatchbacks, design them using the same basic criteria and principles, but yet they manage to make their take on the theme different to everyone elses.
> 
> These Sub rip offs are fake in all but name, and are shamelessly copied from the Rolex.
> 
> Have a look at the high end brands.
> 
> Rolex, Omega, Patek etc.
> 
> Do they copy each others design ?
> 
> No.
> 
> Only the cheap brands do that.
> 
> Personally I don't see why, if you love the design so much, you don't just buy the real thing and have done with it.
> 
> Yes it's expensive, but costs no more than the first years depreciation on a new car, and you'll have something to show for it, rather then throwing money away.
> 
> Not only that, it will be something you can hand over to future generations and will be a treasured pocession for generations to come.
> 
> But you go ahead, and buy your cheap immitation if that's what floats your boat.
> 
> 
> 
> You know what, it probably was. But to be honest I don't give two shakes of a monkeys gonads. If someone wants a subalike and can't afford the real thing or can but would rather use the money for something more important in their lives well then let them!
> 
> Oh and as for you testing us, well I for one find that rather offensive I joined this forum to not only learn more about watches but hopefully build friendships too and I don't bloody well need people trying to test me!
> 
> Now whilst this might get me in trouble here why don't you go forth and multiply you person of dubious schooling and questionable parentage!
> 
> And that as they say is that.
> 
> Sorry guys if I've stepped over the line
Click to expand...

Bugger if I'd noticed he'd left I wouldn't had bothered replying.

Gosh I'll miss that guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Speech

Lets all just forget this joker, it's just a guy throwing his toys out of the pram to get a bit of forum attention. ANNNNYWAY

more to the point, sadly I don't know about the steiny's build quality. I am told that they are really good value for money, so i'd assume it is good. However I must confess I have never owned one, I will eventually get one, but currently there are more pressing uses for that cash! Anyway, if anyone has a steinhart/debaufre can someone give us a quick little review?

Nick


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## Chromejob

There is something to be said to getting the real thing. Two weekends ago I went into a local pawn shop just to see if they had any automatic watches for me to haggle over, fully expecting to find nothing but tricked out quartz gewgaws.

They had one.

Yep.

Rolex. Sea-Dweller. SS + gold, Pepsi bezel. Quite a surprise for the neighborhood. Asking $4500 or so, but probably worth a tad less with all the scratches on the bracelet, crystal, and a nasty gouge on the bezel. Still, a sight to behold. Gf insisted I try it on to see how it looked on my wrist (I was more concerned to examine for serial numbers and such). I think gf was actually afraid I'd haggle and then buy the damn thing on the spot. But I had to do research. And it was a bit too bright and gaudy for what I'm looking for.

Frankly ... I'd rather spent $100-400 on a perfectly good homage/repro, and spend $2000 on new shocks, springs and RSB for my Euro Accord (sold here as the Acura TSX), and maybe some good ultra high perf all-season tires ... and have LOTS more fun than if I'd just spent it on a timepiece that I might even be wary about wearing every day. That's just me, I appreciate those who have R's and O's and such, and personally think I might buy some old vintage model of one in the next year or so. For the time being, I'm too worried that I'd pay too much for something I wasn't too educated about, just because of the brand name. YMMV. -- Just had to get that off my chest. Someone who says "buy the real thing" has a point, I often counsel buying quality for more money than economy that will not last, but in these times frugality is more than just a virtue, it's a necessity for those of us carefully planning retirement and college funds and such.


----------



## jasonm

> Rolex. Sea-Dweller. SS + gold, Pepsi bezel. Quite a surprise for the neighborhood. Asking $4500


Not trying to sound like a pedant but that would have been a Submariner not a Dweller....


----------



## Barryboy

I don't have a Submariner... not a real one, anyway. I've got several watches 'in the style' of a Submariner and I see nothing wrong with that. As far as my conscience is concerned, as long as there's not copyright infringement then that's OK - I don't want to see the word Rolex anywhere if it's not a genuine Rolex, otherwise all is fair in the Sub war

Of all my watches the most like a Sub is without doubt the Steinhart Ocean 1 green.










And it's an excellent watch. Build quality is right up there, timekeeping is very good, it's got a good quality bracelet (which is more than I can say for some genuine Rolexes that have passed through my hands) and it's very comfortable to wear. I don't know what the new price is but used pieces are changing hands in the Â£225 to Â£250 region and IMHO represent good value for money. They are clearly better than the Alphas or Orients yet clearly not in the same league as the Tudor sub. I haven't done a side by side comparison with the Marcello but I remember thinking that was a very good watch indeed. Seiko also do some sub-inspired watches, check out the SKX023 for example. My experience with Invicta is not so favourable... I guess I must have had one of the cheaper range.

However to sum up and answer the original question to the best of my ability, I would suggest that the Orient might be slightly the better value, even if it is a little more expensive initially.

Rob


----------



## Drum2000

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Grosvenor said:
> 
> 
> 
> That was my way of testing your knowledge, and I'm pleased to say that on the whole, you passed with flying colours.
> 
> I do like to make sure I'm in the company of people with a modicum of knowledge.
> 
> I see though that I'm going to have my work cut out educating one or two of you, but one can only do one's best.
> 
> 
> 
> :Troll:
> 
> I`m sorry, you`re obviously far to good for this forum, maybe you should look elsewhere to get your kicks
Click to expand...

Hear, hear!! Well put mach!!


----------



## Kutusov

:shocking: I like that Steinhart!! I think I just changed my mind about the Invicta!


----------



## mach 0.0013137

aliasmarlow said:


> How about Milsub inspired?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rgds
> 
> Jim


I quite like that, more details would be appreciated :yes:


----------



## Kutusov

Steinhart and Robert Poseidon are pretty much the same price... uhm... I think I need to go bang my head against the wall or take a cold shower because it's getting harder not to click on that "add to cart" botton :death:


----------



## w provence

jbw said:


> Stuart Davies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Poseidon (Google 'Robert Uhren') - I have no experiance of the brand but it has to be one of the coolest names out there! :thumbup:
> 
> Subs come in at 315 euros.
> 
> YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> Had my poseidon for over a year now...good value and time keeping is excellent
> 
> Runs at +2 sec a day.
Click to expand...

I like that Poseidon. I have never seen one before, are they made over there? Thanks.............Bill


----------



## Kutusov

They claim it's Swiss made but there's a "Made in Germany" on the dial... not a lot of info on the company (more like none) on their website...


----------



## w provence

Thanks. One of these day's I will own a non date sub, but until then I am just fine with the SO called fakes.............Bill


----------



## Kutusov

I was checking Amazon.de and came across a couple of Sub-alikes: Nautec No limit (also with green bezel) and Insignium.

I read somewhere (maybe on this forum?)that Insignium uses chineese movements and are put together later in Germany.

Anyway, both watches have a price tag around â‚¬100 - â‚¬150 (they are both on sale).

Any information about this two?


----------



## howie77

w provence said:


> jbw said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stuart Davies said:
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Poseidon (Google 'Robert Uhren') - I have no experiance of the brand but it has to be one of the coolest names out there! :thumbup:
> 
> Subs come in at 315 euros.
> 
> YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> Had my poseidon for over a year now...good value and time keeping is excellent
> 
> Runs at +2 sec a day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I like that Poseidon. I have never seen one before, are they made over there? Thanks.............Bill
Click to expand...

New to me too - a brief perusal of their site suggests powered by "ETA 2824-2 Swiss automatic with a stop of seconds or Selitta SW 200" and retails at 315 euro.

They are based out of Germany - well according to the address provided - but as Kutusov notes there's precious little company info on their website. I wouldn't mind knowing a bit more as well, they look well enough!

cheers, H

edit: ruddy font! copied and pasted went haywire....


----------



## Andy the Squirrel

How come no watch maker has managed to incorporate a half-decent looking cyclops (magnified date) into their subalike?


----------



## Kutusov

Kutusov said:


> I was checking Amazon.de and came across a couple of Sub-alikes: Nautec No limit (also with green bezel) and Insignium.
> 
> I read somewhere (maybe on this forum?)that Insignium uses chineese movements and are put together later in Germany.
> 
> Anyway, both watches have a price tag around â‚¬100 - â‚¬150 (they are both on sale).
> 
> Any information about this two?


Ups, my mistake.... the Nautec I was talking about is not a Sub look-alike, its a GMT look-alike.


----------



## Chromejob

Kutusov said:


> Ups, my mistake.... the Nautec I was talking about is not a Sub look-alike, its a GMT look-alike.


All forgiven ... I'd rather like a 2nd time zone hand, but subtle. I think O&W make one ... Orient has one, but it looks fixed.


----------



## MarkDavey

Andy the Squirrel said:


> How come no watch maker has managed to incorporate a half-decent looking cyclops (magnified date) into their subalike?


Sandoz has


----------



## williamsat

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Grosvenor said:
> 
> 
> 
> That was my way of testing your knowledge, and I'm pleased to say that on the whole, you passed with flying colours.
> 
> I do like to make sure I'm in the company of people with a modicum of knowledge.
> 
> I see though that I'm going to have my work cut out educating one or two of you, but one can only do one's best.
> 
> 
> 
> :Troll:
> 
> I`m sorry, you`re obviously far to good for this forum, maybe you should look elsewhere to get your kicks
Click to expand...

Why don't the 'Mods' just ban him he's a :Troll: and obviously wants to cause conflict and unrest between forum members.


----------



## Kutusov

He's been banned already


----------



## Chromejob

Kutusov said:


> Ups, my mistake.... the Nautec I was talking about is not a Sub look-alike, its a GMT look-alike.


I'd settle for a GMT lookalike ... I can't seem to find them in the States....

_________________

I stumbled over Croton, another econo-line marque on Amazon, no one mentioned it here (I know, I wasn't asking "how cheap can you go"). Anyone have one? Customer reviews are spotty, but generally some satisfied customers.

















The two-tone is listed with a winder ... a customer complained of "cloudy crystal," so quality control is lacking.


----------



## Kutusov

David Spalding said:


> Kutusov said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ups, my mistake.... the Nautec I was talking about is not a Sub look-alike, its a GMT look-alike.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd settle for a GMT lookalike ... I can't seem to find them in the States....
Click to expand...

The Nautec is sold over at amazon.de but I think that they use a chinese movement and are later assembled in Germany.

This is way more expensive than an Alpha but take a look...

http://store.debaufre.com/GMT-s/5.htm


----------



## malus65

As I may say so, the Alpha on the picture is no real sub IMHO because it's has a water-resistant rating of only 30M?? That's no sub folks! At the Dutch watch forum there once was a discussion going on about the water-proof quality of a Alpha: http://www.horlogeforum.nl/read.php?2,185255,198366#msg-198366

For those of you who can't read Dutch  : we had a discussion about a Alpha diver. Someone couldn't believe that such a cheap watch would be really good enough to dive with. So this fellow was invited by a Rolex owner and they made a appointment to test it. The Alpha did the test quite well. The max diving depth was 29,7 meters and duration was 41 minutes. Not bad at all for a watch of this price tag.


----------



## Kutusov

malus65 said:


> As I may say so, the Alpha on the picture is no real sub IMHO because it's has a water-resistant rating of only 30M?? That's no sub folks! At the Dutch watch forum there once was a discussion going on about the water-proof quality of a Alpha: http://www.horlogeforum.nl/read.php?2,185255,198366#msg-198366
> 
> For those of you who can't read Dutch  : we had a discussion about a Alpha diver. Someone couldn't believe that such a cheap watch would be really good enough to dive with. So this fellow was invited by a Rolex owner and they made a appointment to test it. The Alpha did the test quite well. The max diving depth was 29,7 meters and duration was 41 minutes. Not bad at all for a watch of this price tag.


I posted this already elsewhere... WR on the Aplha subs is greater than 3 ATM. Watch this:


----------



## Chromejob

Well, I can understand someone buying a "Submariner homage" and expecting 100M, 150M or more WR, but will he use that? The deepest I've "gone" was 187'[1] in Duke University's Hyperbaric chamber for some Navy diving tests. I can't recall if I wore my new 7S26, or my old H558. (Probably the former, as I'd have ruined the study if I broke down and cried over my "Arnold.") Oh, I think I did an FAA "flying after diving" test where they took me down to ... 50'? (But that didn't involve water.)

Would I take one of these cheapies down there? Um ... no. But I'd take it to the pool to splash around with my daughter.

[1] Technically, it was down to 185' in the chamber, and then I was in a water tank exerting myself, which the dive controllers said added another 2'. Don't bother arguing -- though I was only the test subject, they were quite explicit about how deep my test was performed at.


----------



## Chromejob

David Spalding said:


> The two-tone is listed with a winder ... a customer complained of "cloudy crystal," so quality control is lacking.


No opinions or experience at all with Croton? It's in the same price range as Alpha, but with a Japanese (unk. maker) movement.


----------



## K300

> Sounds like the Invicta 8926 has a Miyota (Japanese) movement that moves 6 beats per second, winds counterclockwise only, and has a very nice solid (not folded) bracelet. A bargain for US$70-96. Looks pretty similar to a Submariner. It seems that, unless you get a lemon, this is a very good watch for the price, never mind the appearance.
> 
> Posted Image


This is exactly what I have and I concur with the comment about getting a lemon, ordered one and received it, it kept stopping with the second hand at position 8, sent it back and got a new one, that was at Christmas, this one is working absolutely spot on. I didn't stress over the faulty one as it was Â£60. Honestly can't say I'd be any happier if it was a Rolex on my wrist apart from the name and the cyclops isn't brilliant on the Invicta, the bracelet on the Invicta is very good and comfy. Invicta use their own logo(of course) on the clasp, crown, face and side and that adds a bit of character to it, it also has the logo cut out at the back end of the second hand, very trick. Couldn't be happier for Â£60.


----------



## Chromejob

I'm holding off on the Invicta 9937OB partly due to that second hand detailing. It's cute ... but I think it's a distraction. For me, the sweep sec. hand needs to be highly functional....


----------



## Kutusov

BTW... it's an interesting read...

http://members.iinet.net.au/~fotoplot/invicta/invicta.html


----------



## howie77

David Spalding said:


> David Spalding said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The two-tone is listed with a winder ... a customer complained of "cloudy crystal," so quality control is lacking.
> 
> 
> 
> No opinions or experience at all with Croton? It's in the same price range as Alpha, but with a Japanese (unk. maker) movement.
Click to expand...

Looks to be some models with Miyota 8215 and others using Seagull ST16 or DG28/38 auto's - think they all have the same dimensions - the indicator as to which I guess being whether it hacks/hand winds... Someone will likely know better than me though.

Curious myself, could be potential for my 'experiment' in modding... which seems to be getting nowhere fast.

Howie


----------



## Chromejob

Tuesday or Thursday night I saw a not-so-ugly-I-puked Invicta dive watch, with a SII NH25A movement ... which, on the superzoom pics I could tell would wind both ways, unlike the Miyota movement in the watches I mentioned on page one. Researching the movement, I found specs that indicated that the movement could be manufactured in Japan or ... um ... was it Thailand? Somewhere. The promotional pics I've seen do not show the location marking.

Anyway, if I'm to believe this thread at Watchuseek the NH25A is a copy of the Seiko 7S25A movement.

Searching around for the watches with the NH25A ... Invictas like 6055, 6030,... something like that. Oh, here's a review of the one I think was on sale. Not bad looking for US$60, eh? I shoulda bought it.

I have no knowledge of whether these movements can be interchanged into other cases, but if you could get a good movement in a good case, and it's a duplicate of a common Seiko movement, would not the dial and hands be something you can change easily? 

Until I caught this O&W fever, the Orient was my affordable favorite. Nice dial, reasonably good fit and finish, quality movement, some have said the case and bracelet are good quality, too.


----------



## howie77

David Spalding said:


> Tuesday or Thursday night I saw a not-so-ugly-I-puked Invicta dive watch, with a SII NH25A movement ... which, on the superzoom pics I could tell would wind both ways, unlike the Miyota movement in the watches I mentioned on page one. Researching the movement, I found specs that indicated that the movement could be manufactured in Japan or ... um ... was it Thailand? Somewhere. The promotional pics I've seen do not show the location marking.
> 
> Anyway, if I'm to believe this thread at Watchuseek the NH25A is a copy of the Seiko 7S25A movement.
> 
> Searching around for the watches with the NH25A ... Invictas like 6055, 6030,... something like that. Oh, here's a review of the one I think was on sale. Not bad looking for US$60, eh? I shoulda bought it.
> 
> I have no knowledge of whether these movements can be interchanged into other cases, but if you could get a good movement in a good case, and it's a duplicate of a common Seiko movement, would not the dial and hands be something you can change easily?


Thanks for this David.. very interesting.

On looking there appears to be quite a few Invicta's in the 6xxx series fitted with the NH25a. Essentially the same movement as the old A version of the 7Sxx from what I've read, though of course the main issue being that the Seiko's have the crown at 4 o'clock, as opposed to at 3 o'clock on the NH25a Invicta.

Wouldn't be an issue I guess with a sterile/non-date window dial of course, but I'd likely have to check the measurements of the dial and movement to make sure they would fit, and of course I suspect still have to break the dial feet and stick the dial to the movement plate. Not really an issue though I shouldn't think.

Still, sounds better, not overly keen on actually buying a new SKX007 with the sole intention of then breaking it up!









cheers, H


----------



## howie77

MarkDavey said:


> Any of the above would make a great choice and here's another worth considering.... I have this Sandoz sub which is very nicely put together and has a 25 jewelled ETA movement. Very good VFM IMHO - have fun choosing


Been meaning to say Mark, your Sandoz looks awesome. Yours looks to be the Hong Kong version? I really prefer this one, not overly keen on the applique logo detail on the Singapore version. Funny how the only place it seems to get these is over at pmwf though, never seen them anywhere else.

Circa $200 for an eta 2836? Sounds alright to me!

cheers, H


----------



## sangman2000

I personally donâ€™t have any problem homage watches. I have two both Pannys and I canâ€™t see what the problem is. For my two pennies worth a fake is a watch, which has been made to mislead people, it will have makers name on it it will have same font etc some of them are very well made, but they are imho fakes and unacceptable. On saying that I have brought the odd one or two when on hols 10 euros for fun. Now the watches on this topic imho are not fakes they have their own makers name on them and there are differences. Also many people are very badly paid and have a lot responsibilities that draw on their funds, how can they get the design they like ? Best way imho is to get a homage (not a fake) there is a saying that people who ware fakes are fakes trying to appear as something they are not , that cannot be said of the person who has a homage watch because he has the choice to buy fake with the name on it copying the watch in total detail, or a homage like the ones mentioned in this topic Orient , Robert, Invicta and of course those with sterile dials. Since I have been a member of this forum I have concluded that the people on it are not fakes they have a genuine interest in watches and do not try to be something they are not so what would they want with a fake in the first place..


----------



## Kutusov

sangman2000 said:


> I personally donâ€™t have any problem homage watches. I have two both Pannys and I canâ€™t see what the problem is. For my two pennies worth a fake is a watch, which has been made to mislead people, it will have makers name on it it will have same font etc some of them are very well made, but they are imho fakes and unacceptable. On saying that I have brought the odd one or two when on hols 10 euros for fun. Now the watches on this topic imho are not fakes they have their own makers name on them and there are differences. Also many people are very badly paid and have a lot responsibilities that draw on their funds, how can they get the design they like ? Best way imho is to get a homage (not a fake) there is a saying that people who ware fakes are fakes trying to appear as something they are not , that cannot be said of the person who has a homage watch because he has the choice to buy fake with the name on it copying the watch in total detail, or a homage like the ones mentioned in this topic Orient , Robert, Invicta and of course those with sterile dials. Since I have been a member of this forum I have concluded that the people on it are not fakes they have a genuine interest in watches and do not try to be something they are not so what would they want with a fake in the first place..


Oh yeah, I'm with you! Homages FTW!! :notworthy:


----------



## Tony_i

Take a look around a general 'lower end' watch shop, full of Seikos, Citizens, Tissots etc etc (you get the idea).

Most of the cheaper end of the market is in the style of the more expensive end. It's full of Rolex/Omega/Breitling etc homages, though I doubt most of their buyers evern realise this.

It's the same with clothes: what appears on the catwalk one month is in the high street the next.

It's how this kind of market works.


----------



## w provence

mach 0.0013137 said:


> aliasmarlow said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about Milsub inspired?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rgds
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> 
> I quite like that, more details would be appreciated :yes:
Click to expand...

Im still waiting on more info on the Vickers, or have I missed it somewhere. Has anyone seen the Alpha milsub. If I wanted to do a milsub homeage, what would be the best case and mov't to use. I would like to go as cheap as possible but still be good quality. Thanks.........Bill


----------



## Kutusov

Im still waiting on more info on the Vickers, or have I missed it somewhere. Has anyone seen the Alpha milsub. If I wanted to do a milsub homeage, what would be the best case and mov't to use. I would like to go as cheap as possible but still be good quality. Thanks.........Bill


----------



## Chromejob

*Multiple follow-ons....*



howie77 said:


> ... Essentially the same movement as the old A version of the 7Sxx from what I've read, though of course the main issue being that the Seiko's have the crown at 4 o'clock, as opposed to at 3 o'clock on the NH25a Invicta....


I have a 7S26 with the crown at 3 o'clock. Center stage here:










With all the new watches coming in -- darn you, guys, I've caught the bug no thanks to you -- I was thinking of flipping this one, but when I wear it or put it next to other divers, I discover again how distinctive and 'classy' it looks. Nice all-steel and understated look. Bravo, Seiko.

I might be recollecting incorrectly, but I thought I read a page which stated the date-only movement was ... 24A or something? Perhaps that's what you're thinking of. Actually ... the crown can be at any position, can't it? The date numerals will line up either way, you just need to adjust the cog(?) which clicks the date over at roughly 2300-0100...? (IAMAH ... I Am Not An Horologist)

_________________



David Spalding said:


> I've been toying with the idea of a Submariner repro/lookalike that I could fit with the correct NATO "Goldfinger" strap. A classic look that [more than a] few aficionados (as well as spy movie geeks) would appreciate. The idea of a replica Rolex doesn't appeal to me, due to the usual questions: "is it real," "why wear a fake," "you snobby nob." Besides, for the same money, you can get a watch with a known movement (not luck of the draw). Based on some casual reading here, I gather that some of the "homage" models are in fact fine watches, come with quality movements,... *and that's not even counting some of the small watchmakers who make similar models in the $1000-2500 range *(at which point, I ask, why not find a vintage authentic Rolex to spiff up).....


(emphasis added)

I cannot friggin believe no one mentioned the MK II "Kingston" project that's been underway for 18 months. Sorry that I missed out on that beauty (and Bill Yao's giving them away even at the US$875 price point, IMHO). Hoping that he creates a sort of ongoing version as he did with his Tournek LTD and the Stingray model.

Price points being no object, IMHO, MK II seems the best way to go for a Sub-alike, partly for quality, partly for your ability to order exactly what you want in a bezel, crystal, dial, hands, sweep second "dipped," and even the date wheel. I spent a few hours yesterday while the gf ran through old LOST episodes, trying out different combinations in different cases, and regularly resulted in beautiful, unique Sub-alikes for < $1500.

_________________



DMP said:


> The Grovana Coral Reef and the Steinhart/Debaufre Ocean series are top quality "homages" with Swiss ETA 2824 movements, but expect to pay a lot more for them new than the Invicta and Orients.





PaulBoy said:


> Good call DMP - I've had a Grovana & quality is excellent - The Steinhart would be up here with it too - Either of these would be my homage of choice ... Paul :thumbsup:
> 
> PS - The Alpha 'Sub' would be on my list if budget was tight though I'd be looking for a decent bracelet as theirs are a bit ropey!


I've read elsewhere that Grovana actually make the Steinharts ... also that quality control has been up-and-down, RLT no longer carrying them being a possible indicator. Looked at Steinhart's GMTs and they're selling for much less than the usual US FleaBay prices indicated. I might get one of those this year as I'm still craving a GMT model diver[1] (and MK II's, though really nice with hands you can choose, cost twice as much if you go customizing it).

[1] You'd think my recently acquired O&W M5 would suffice. I might flip that around once I have another O&W in hand. I bought it rather as a contingency, though the Omega SM300 hands are growing on me.

_________________



BondandBigM said:


> funtimefrankie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rolex just hit pay dirt with the subs design.
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly *THEIR* design
Click to expand...




Clum said:


> Wasn't the sub a 'homage' of the blancpain fifty fathoms?


From all the reading I've done since opening this thread, and then some, I get the idea that Blancpain's seminal Fifty Fathoms design, and the original Rolex Sub, came out about the same time, and dive watch design can be traced to one of these two almost universally.

__________________



Barryboy said:


> ... Seiko also do some sub-inspired watches, check out the SKX023 for example....


Quite right, not as close a match as the other homages (hands, day/date), but with the venerable 7S26 movement (ahem, Howie, note the crown position), certainly a contender, and at US$150-200 street price, affordable.


----------



## Chromejob

sangman2000 said:


> ... Now the watches on this topic imho are not fakes they have their own makers name on them and there are differences. Also many people are very badly paid and have a lot responsibilities that draw on their funds, how can they get the design they like ? Best way imho is to get a homage (not a fake) there is a saying that people who ware fakes are fakes trying to appear as something they are not , that cannot be said of the person who has a homage watch because he has the choice to buy fake with the name on it copying the watch in total detail, or a homage like the ones mentioned in this topic Orient , Robert, Invicta and of course those with sterile dials....


Some of the brands (cough, Invicta, cough) don't seem to bring much to the watch besides some derivative styling and a cheap movement (cheap though serviceable). The Miyota specifically ... several places I've seen people note that it can be off the wrist for all of 8-10 hours and lose its power reserve. :shocking: That $60 special 6xxx with the NH25A (Seiko 7S26 derivative movement) would've made a fine 'working on the car' or 'building a house' watch VFM. It's all what you want for a "beater."

But crossing the US$200 threshold, I'm finding watches with ETA or Valjoux movements in which the heart of the watch is great quality, and detailing and quality of the dial, hands, case, and bracelet make the deal. I just passed on an O&W chrono (3066CD or similar, asking US$795, came down to $695 on counteroffer) that, from the seller's photos, had a bracelet on folded links. For Â£299 or so I can get a Swiss movement with a solid link bracelet from Roy or Herr Wajs. So you're dead on correct, in the < Â£1000 realm, you can get a watch with a good movement, and a well done presentation, that should never be confused with a "fake." Though adherence to the exact same presentation that a Rolex offers, I would consider an "original" with damned little innovation. I little innovation is good....

I would consider Bill Yao's "Kingston" a very different matter -- an exacting historical reproduction. (sigh) I'm very crestfallen to have missed that boat (Quarrel's). :crybaby: :wallbash:


----------



## w provence

Kutusov said:


> Im still waiting on more info on the Vickers, or have I missed it somewhere. Has anyone seen the Alpha milsub. If I wanted to do a milsub homeage, what would be the best case and mov't to use. I would like to go as cheap as possible but still be good quality. Thanks.........Bill


Cheap as possible and good quality? It's the Alpha then, already done and all...


----------



## Kutusov

w provence said:


> Thank you. I thought I saw it on sell at thier web site................Bill


Only on the Alpha USA website... the HK site doesn't have them...

Oh! But you are from the US so it's even better! Cheers!


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## w provence

w provence said:


> Kutusov said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im still waiting on more info on the Vickers, or have I missed it somewhere. Has anyone seen the Alpha milsub. If I wanted to do a milsub homeage, what would be the best case and mov't to use. I would like to go as cheap as possible but still be good quality. Thanks.........Bill
> 
> 
> 
> Cheap as possible and good quality? It's the Alpha then, already done and all...
Click to expand...

Thank you. I thought I saw it on sell at thier web site................Bill


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## Kutusov

w provence said:


> I just looked at it again, the alpha, looks good BUT I want one with a milsub bezel ring. Now where could I find that. What do ya'll think of the the company's that make the fake Rolex's. They have one with a eta 2836 in it. You can get a sterile dial for it and better hands, what about the quaility of the case. Anyone know?................Bill


Hi, we can't discuss fakes on this forum, it's against the rules...


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## Chromejob

While sobbing into my keyboard over missing out on the MK II Kingston, this arrived. A very serviceable stand-in for the classic.

A sneak preview (tease). I have some work to do with the band.


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## w provence

Kutusov said:


> w provence said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just looked at it again, the alpha, looks good BUT I want one with a milsub bezel ring. Now where could I find that. What do ya'll think of the the company's that make the fake Rolex's. They have one with a eta 2836 in it. You can get a sterile dial for it and better hands, what about the quaility of the case. Anyone know?................Bill
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, we can't discuss fakes on this forum, it's against the rules...
Click to expand...

Thanks, sorry about that. I have an O&W M4, I could use it............Bill


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## Chromejob

Did someone say Ollech & Wajs?










I hope the scenery doesn't violate forum protocol. PM if so, image can be changed.

My other O&W was, so the prior owner told me, converted by North East Watch Works. Appears to do exceptional work, including dial and and bezel and crown switch-outs. Might be what you're looking for.


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## w provence

David Spalding said:


> Did someone say Ollech & Wajs?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope the scenery doesn't violate forum protocol. PM if so, image can be changed.
> 
> My other O&W was, so the prior owner told me, converted by North East Watch Works. Appears to do exceptional work, including dial and and bezel and crown switch-outs. Might be what you're looking for.


Thanks David, I will check them out.............Bill


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## Retronaut

Some excellent suggestions on here! :thumbsup:

I like the look of the green sub style Steinhart Ocean 1 and the Robert Diver - think one of them will be making it onto my wish list (may even push the O&W M4 off for now). 

They look very similar to my untrained eye - given the similar recommended price is there anything much to set them apart? (are they effectively the same watch??)

















My initial thought is that the Steinhart is a bit more classy looking as the main logo is less cluttered than the Robert but they're both nice!


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## Kutusov

Retronaut said:


> They look very similar to my untrained eye - given the similar recommended price is there anything much to set them apart? (are they effectively the same watch??)
> 
> My initial thought is that the Steinhart is a bit more classy looking as the main logo is less cluttered than the Robert but they're both nice!


I think I also made that question here or somewhere else. If they are not the same (and I think they are not) they are very close in everyway. Even the price is around the same on both.

Like you, I got much more interested in the Steinhart, looks a lot better IMHO. I was really tempted by it but then some guys overhere showed me the Alpha :sly:

Got that one (and two, and three and four...) and never looked back! But that's just me, I'm a cheap  like that :wink2:


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## w provence

This is the closest to a sub I can afford right now. My O&W M4................Bill


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## Kutusov

w provence said:


> This is the closest to a sub I can afford right now. My O&W M4................Bill


No it's not... it's this one I tell you!!!



















Disclamer... I'm not an Alpha salesman


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## Chromejob

I just threw up a little in my mouth ... sorry, but an Alpha is not comparable to an O&W with a ETA 2824 movement. That much I DO know.

*Lovely M4 there* (more like "5513" reproduction), I particularly like it with the M5 GMT bezel insert. I was thinking of cobbling one together of my bits and pieces, but I'm trying to restrain myself.


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## Kutusov

David Spalding said:


> I just threw up a little in my mouth ... sorry, but an Alpha is not comparable to an O&W with a ETA 2824 movement. That much I DO know.


Ok, fine... what about a sterile Parnis sub-alike? 

Oh, and I'm sure that your reflux wasn't because of my Alpha was it? Just Alpha in general... because mine is beautiful :inlove:


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## Chromejob

Kutusov said:


> Ok, fine... what about a sterile Parnis sub-alike?
> 
> Oh, and I'm sure that your reflux wasn't because of my Alpha was it? Just Alpha in general... because mine is beautiful :inlove:


I'm sorry, not YOUR Alpha (which is de-lovely), and that was a rude comment to make without qualification. Alpha watches are a good value for the money. I've heard complimentary things about their bracelets. But I've heard differing reports on quality ... so I don't personally think an Alpha sub compares at all with an O&W powered by the ETA 2824-2. The Alpha isn't at the same price point as the O&W, though ... roughly US$80 to roughly US$330.


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## Kutusov

David Spalding said:


> I'm sorry, not YOUR Alpha (which is de-lovely), and that was a rude comment to make without qualification. Alpha watches are a good value for the money. I've heard complimentary things about their bracelets. But I've heard differing reports on quality ... so I don't personally think an Alpha sub compares at all with an O&W powered by the ETA 2824-2. The Alpha isn't at the same price point as the O&W, though ... roughly US$80 to roughly US$330.


No worries mate, I know you are one of the good guys!







And I know that an O&W is a lot better than an Aplha, so that was a bit of joke too. My point in all that was that w provence can afford an Alpha, they cost peanuts! So when he said the closest to a sub he can afford is an O&W, if the closest ~refers to looks alone, then he can afford an Alpha! :rofl:


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## w provence

Thanks David, I got that from a friend of mine who had 4 of these ordered before O&W started making them. It's several years old but still in great shape.

Kutusov, I have looked at the Alpha's. I had a chance to see thier Milsub in person. Nice watch, especally for $49 over here.

I would like to turn my M4 into a 5513. I wonder if a Tropic 19 crystal will fit it? Or It might just be better to sell it and save up. Thanks guys.........Bill


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## Chromejob

Bill, my Oregon M5 seller included a spare Sub bezel insert, I think that's all you need to complete your 5513 makeover. We could perhaps come to an arrangement. :cowboy: Personally, you *have* the configuration that I was thinking of cobbling together, a diver dial (without or without date, and no cyclops), and the GMT bezel insert. I'd keep it as is. The domed crystal on mine falls below the bezel insert, creating a small gap that could attract dirt (probably already has).

MK II offers a Sub bezel with hour markers among the 20 min incremental markers, very nice, but to get it, you have to order a custom model, costing quite a few ducats.

I spent more time on Gunther Steinhart's site, and noticed that among the dive watches, there is very 5513-alike, the Ocean 1 Vintage. I think someone mentioned it before. The Ocean 1 Vintage Red adds a date window without the cyclops. "Was blind, but now I see...." Both are great looking, and if I could rewind time, I'd probably opt for the Vintage Red instead of buying a used WCT (O&W) 5513 model, though ... the O&W * is* a smaller case. (The Ocean 1 Vintage has proper hour markers, but a "look at me" black-on-white name marker on the center dial that detracts from the look IMHO.) All, featuring the ETA 2824-2, are 28800 bph movements.

So, following up on my original quest, among the Sub-alikes, the O&W 5513 (if you can find one) is great, and Steinhart's Ocean 1 Vintage Red offers a superb case and the same ETA movement at a pretty good price point. The Invicta 9937 (Swiss movement) is cheaper, but a little gaudier (dial marking, dressed up sweep second hand), Orient's is affordable and good VFM (in slower beat rate Japanese movement), and Alpha ropes in the bargain basement award with a Chinese movement and reportedly above average case and bracelet for the price. MK II will make you a custom model to match your desires, but will cost well over US$1000 unless you get his OTS buildup.


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## w provence

I really like the red ocean 1. I would like to find a bezel insert with the hash marks all around the bezel. I am open to talking about my M4, maybe you could send me a pic of the one your talking about. Thanks.............Bill


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## w provence

w provence said:


> I really like the red ocean 1. I would like to find a bezel insert with the hash marks all around the bezel. I am open to talking about my M4, maybe you could send me a pic of the one your talking about. Thanks.............Bill





















More pics of my M4.................Bill


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## mrteatime

coolio or what????? dssd sterile hommage...


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## Kutusov

Have you seen this one?...



















Sorry about the lettering over the photos but can't find it anywhere else...


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## Chromejob

w provence said:


> I really like the red ocean 1. I would like to find a bezel insert with the hash marks all around the bezel. I am open to talking about my M4, maybe you could send me a pic of the one your talking about. Thanks.............Bill


*Advanced search* to the rescue. Just look for posts by author David Spalding, you'll find mine with pics, and voila. 



mrteatime said:


>


:drool: I LIKE it!!



Kutusov said:


> Have you seen this one?...
> 
> Sorry about the lettering over the photos but can't find it anywhere else...


Sorry about the gaudy "Sea-gull" branding all around the chapter ring ... WTH was someone thinking? Blech.


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## Kutusov

David Spalding said:


> WTH was someone thinking? Blech.


They want to make sure you know its a Seagull


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## zed4130

This is very good value for money plus built very well, i cant get the back off at the moment but is a Chinese auto of some kind ill find out,oh and the cyclops is actually not bad.

shawn like that :thumbsup:

MQJ sub,it comes on a very nice oyster bracelet but i wanted to try roys nato out .


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## w provence

I really like that deep sea. I think I'm going to sort out the watches I have and let some go to good homes and save for a Tudor or Sub...........Bill


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## Clum

This is mine, not an auto but for <Â£10 I can't complain


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## Sancho Panza

Clum said:


> This is mine, not an auto but for <Â£10 I can't complain


I think I know the maker, is it Regina Phalange


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## Kutusov

Clum said:


> This is mine, not an auto but for <Â£10 I can't complain


That's pretty cool! It even has a crown on the dial!! :thumbsup:


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## w provence

Sancho Panza said:


> Clum said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is mine, not an auto but for <Â£10 I can't complain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I know the maker, is it Regina Phalange
Click to expand...

Cool looking watch. I have yet to get a green one...................Bill


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## barkyboy

I just emailed Steinhart re the availabiity of their "Homage" range of subs & I must say i was very impressed as to the speed of their response!


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## Sancho Panza

barkyboy said:


> I just emailed Steinhart re the availabiity of their "Homage" range of subs & I must say i was very impressed as to the speed of their response!


That's surprising, I emailed them first thing this morning about a bracelet and they haven't replied yet.


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## barkyboy

Within about 15 mins from my email I get a response.


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## Chromejob

Maybe it helps if you preamble with "Guten tag,...."


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## Sancho Panza

barkyboy said:


> Within about 15 mins from my email I get a response.


Is this the email address you used: [email protected] I sent them another couple of emails and still no reply.


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## Retronaut

Sancho Panza said:


> barkyboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Within about 15 mins from my email I get a response.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the email address you used: [email protected] I sent them another couple of emails and still no reply.
Click to expand...

In addition to the email address you are sending *to* also look at which email address you are sending *from* - if your mails are mysteriously going astray could be that Steinhart's ISP is blocking Hotmail, blueyonder or suchlike as spam.

In the past my g/f's Dad has had problems mailing old friends abroad - the foreign ISP considered BlueYonder (a UK Cable Co) to be spam and blocked it!! :wallbash:

If all fails pick up the phone and give them a call - I'm willing to bet their (doubtless perfect) English is better than my German!! :big_boss:


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## Sancho Panza

I got a reply from them, the bracelet I was after was the one on the Nav-B Chrono II stainless steel for my Nav B-Uhr. The price is 65 euros, from what I've read of the quality it's worth it. What do you think, worth it or not?

PS Apologies for hijacking this thread, I should really have started a fresh one.


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## barkyboy

No worries, glad you got it sorted!


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## alexeberlin

Clum said:


> This is mine, not an auto but for <Â£10 I can't complain


off topic but what's the black pvd watch on the left? thanks


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## spirit

langtoftlad said:


> I have the Orient and the Alpha - both excellent in their way, but for me, the orient is just "better" all round, a little more 'sophisticated', hard to explain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best value? Well the Alpha is third of the price - so nothwithstanding the Orient is a "better" watch, the Alpha is better value without doubt.


Saw this post, loved the Alpha and just bought it on E bay new, Oooooo thats three watches this month, an Ivicta oversize dive, a Nautica oversize dive and now this.......I better take a break- have my eye on yet another----(must not pull the trigger)!


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## Clum

alexeberlin said:


> Clum said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is mine, not an auto but for <Â£10 I can't complain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> off topic but what's the black pvd watch on the left? thanks
Click to expand...

It's a Traser Code Blue, but it's not PVD it's a carbon fibre case with tritium vial markers.


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## alexeberlin

Clum said:


> alexeberlin said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clum said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is mine, not an auto but for <Â£10 I can't complain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> off topic but what's the black pvd watch on the left? thanks
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's a Traser Code Blue, but it's not PVD it's a carbon fibre case with tritium vial markers.
Click to expand...

thanks


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## Chromejob

I was a little dissatisified with the Steinhart hands on my Ocean Black DLC (ice cream cone versus Rolex lollypop hour hand, color somewhat lighter than hour markers), so I had a watchsmith transplant some Omega SM300 hands to it (along with a MK II sweep seconds hand in matching steel), and voila -- retro Milsub chic. The Omega hands glow like m*****-f*****s making it pretty much what I believe the MoD had in mind when they did this to Omega Seamasters in 1969(?) and then the Rolex 5517s.










Steinhart's Ocean One Vintage Red, with domed acrylic crystal, no cyclops, and classic 5513 looks, would be a superb candidate for this kind of mod.


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## AlexC1981

Good idea. I think that's a very worthwhile modification. Certainly very retro looking.


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## Kutusov

David Spalding said:


> Steinhart's Ocean One Vintage Red, with domed acrylic crystal, no cyclops, and classic 5513 looks, would be a superb candidate for this kind of mod.


Oh yeah, I fully agree! It would make a great Mil-Sub look-a-like. The lume on the Vintage Red is also better than on the Ocean 1 (It's superluminova something instead of superluminova something-else  )

Liked the mod, congrats!


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## jezz59

Clum said:


> Wasn't the sub a 'homage' of the blancpain fifty fathoms?


yes


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## Chromejob

Kutusov said:


> Oh yeah, I fully agree! It would make a great Mil-Sub look-a-like. The lume on the Vintage Red is also better than on the Ocean 1 (It's superluminova something instead of superluminova something-else  )
> 
> Liked the mod, congrats!


:drinks: Thanks. :cheers: FYI, I believe the OBDLC and O1VR both have Superluminova C3 Green on the dials and hands. I HAVE seen 1 or 2 OBDLC buyers for whom Gunter swapped a O1VR dial in, which looks *almost* the same, but the red dial marking gives a different vintage Rolex ("Double Red") look. I thought of it, but ... the Milsubs had white on black "maxi-dials" and (T) marking IIRC. I think I'm standing pat on this.

(Steinhart's discontinued Ocean Vintage (with a COMEX-like dial) might've been dandy. Wonder if still has some of those dials.... :think: I'd decided against one though because I like the white-on-black date wheel.)

I hope it's not widespread, but there are reports on WUS of new-bezel Ocean Ones with bezels that wiggle south-to-north and can be lifted 1-2mm from the case. :huh: Shades of the fellow who complained about a Orient Sub with that problem....

... Here's another Q&D shot, on an 18mm "Bond regimental NATO" from our host. I've posted a couple of hard-won lume pics in my "Better At Night" topic.


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## Kutusov

David Spalding said:


>


Thanks for all the info, let's just hope the new models are nicer than the new GMT/DSSD hybrid. I like most Steinhart watches but these new ones are just fugly as hell.

Regarding that strap, it really is a Bond strap, shorter than the lugs and all


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## Chromejob

Kutusov said:


> Regarding that strap, it really is a Bond strap, shorter than the lugs and all


BTW, bought from RLT Watches.


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## Faijex

David Spalding said:


> Kutusov said:
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding that strap, it really is a Bond strap, shorter than the lugs and all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, bought from RLT Watches.
Click to expand...

makes you wonder why it was smaller, anyone know?


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## Kutusov

Faijex said:


> makes you wonder why it was smaller, anyone know?


In the JB film? If it is, here some info http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=42801&drgn=1


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## pg tips

the infamous "goldfinger" watch


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## Stinch

This is believed to be the watch Ian Fleming was actually describing in print, his own watch which was an Explorer 1 1016.

Copyright Dell Deaton:


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## pg tips

there are a number of storied regarding the goldfinger watch, one I heard is Cubby broccoli wasn't happy with the watch the props dept had for the film so used his own rolex, however it didn't fit Connery and someone on the crew donated their one piece (not a nato) nylon strap.


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## MarkF

Dave, nice pics, I've had an Orient and an 8926, I don't know why, maybe the face font, but the Orient looked weedy in comparison, it didn't look right.

I sold the 8926 on here as I was only wearing it as a holiday watch, but I never get tired of telling people what a fabulous bargain it was. I've spent more on bracelets that the Invicta 8926 cost and the bracelet that comes with it is way better those bracelets! I've had many watches with the same Miyota movement and all have proved fault free and with good power reserves. Negatives, I didin't like the Invicta logo, which is also on the case side and clasp and the indice rings were too shiny for me, nitpicking I suppose rather than negatives. To non-Wis's, the watch looks a million dollars, it's a hefty piece, wears large and has a proven movement and a good bracelet (at any price), it can't be beaten for "value" IMO.

However, I'd buy the Sandoz :blink: I've been looking for one for quite a while now, it's better looking IMO, simple as that. Great pic Mark. The well known supplier never has them in stock and I can't find one in the EU, if anybody knows where I can get one (EU), then please let me know.


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## Chromejob

Kutusov said:


> Oh yeah, I fully agree! It would make a great Mil-Sub look-a-like. The lume on the Vintage Red is also better than on the Ocean 1 (It's superluminova something instead of superluminova something-else  )


Not sure I mentioned that the O1VR and O1DLC use Superluminova C3 Green ... the regular Ocean Ones use Superluminova C1 white.



Kutusov said:


> Faijex said:
> 
> 
> 
> makes you wonder why it was smaller, anyone know?
> 
> 
> 
> In the JB film? If it is, here some info http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=42801&drgn=1
Click to expand...

That thread is full of inaccuracies, but then a lot of the "facts" are speculation or hearsay anyway. E.g. that Rolex declined to give them a watch for DR. NO so Broccoli took his off and loaned it to the prop/wardrobe dept. I can't recall if that's ever been corroborated. We presumably saw the same a little closer in FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE ("I'm sorry, you DID say your clock was correct?" "Sir, Russian clocks are ALWAYS--") with the crown pulled out. The closest view was in GOLDFINGER, of course, again presumably the same, but this time not on black/brown croc but on that intriguing strap of unk origin.

[IMG alt="20100731-a01_goldfinger_w...31-a01_goldfinger_watch_details_435.jpg[/IMG]

I've made some long searches through medal books and regimental & school tie references (the latter from 1968 or so, considered comprehensive and definitive), and can't find a match for the double-stripe pattern. There was a very similar color pattern (single-stripe) for the ... let's see if I remember ... Royal Naval Reserve Wireless Long Service & Good Conduct medal for non-commissioned (aka enlisted). My guess is that it was either on a crewmember's wrist, or bought local to the studio, and size matching wasn't a concern (I imagine Hamilton or someone saying, "who'll notice, it'll be on screen for < 3 seconds?").

For my money, the Corvus Real Bond straps are spot on, but so tightly woven as to be a bit insubstantial. Several people make nice 5513 homages that satisfied my yearning for a "Goldfinger watch."

... Have I already said all this? I must be getting







. Where's that nurse with my afternoon cocoa and sponge bath?


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## Kutusov

David Spalding said:


> Where's that nurse with my afternoon cocoa and sponge bath?


You'd like that wouldn't you??


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## BondandBigM

David Spalding said:


> That thread is full of inaccuracies, but then a lot of the "facts" are speculation or hearsay anyway. E.g. that Rolex declined to give them a watch for DR. NO so Broccoli took his off and loaned it to the prop/wardrobe dept. I can't recall if that's ever been corroborated.


I'll ask my Uncle Sean the next time I speak to him, if anybody knows he will.

:lol: :lol:


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## motokustom

Look for a USED Tudor as see these on the bay for a grand upwards


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## dongagon

+1 for the Invicta 8926,

I have had mine for 2 years now. Keeps good time and still looks good.

An excellent purchase


----------

