# TRENCH WATCH (MAPPIN & WEBB)



## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

Hi All

Hoping I can get some help from the British blokes on this site. Just acquired this Trench watch (Red 12) 15 Jewel sold/made by Mappin & Webb. What can any of you Brits tell me about the company Mappin and Webb? Back in the day from what I have read so far, it sold a lot of vanity luxury. Its a heavy watch. The movement is stamped/labeled Mappin & Webb, Leicester. The movement is also stamped Swiss with a four digit serial number. The movement also has an addition 7 digit serial number that matches the stamped case serial number. It is silver case with single bear Swiss hallmark and stamped 0.935 making it very early 1900. Before 1918. Currently feels like it is over wound. Reverse clicks can still be heard. The hands move freely with crown pulled. Once serviced and "HOPEFULLY" it just needs a good cleaning, would you polish this watch to bring out the silver or leave the tarnish?. It also has a gold ring around the inner face. Looks like it has a cream porcelain face. Any comments or information provided would be helpful.


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## Eaglegale (Jan 31, 2020)

I'm not in the least an expert, but this looks to be related to the Longines 13.34 to me.


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## Eaglegale (Jan 31, 2020)

Now a Doxa Fan said:


> The movement is also stamped Swiss with a four digit serial number.


 Is that the number near the word "Swiss" close to the balance wheel? If so, it might well be the movement type number. Looks like it might start with 13?


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

It does look like the Longines image you posted, mine is a 15 Jewel and the number beside the Swiss stamp is 13,33


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Nice watch. I think there is plenty about Mappin & Webb online, including on Wikipedia. It looks like there's a bear hallmark on the case, which means the watch and the case both came from Switzerland before being put up for sale. It's interesting the movement is signed M & W Leicester, as the Mappin & Webb factory was in Sheffield, though that was making silver plate and cutlery. I can't find any connection between them and Leicester, or another movement signed that way. The current M&W as part of Watches of Switzerland does have its HQ in Leicester, but that is a coincidence. Another possibility is that it isn't Leicester, England, but Leicester New York. I've seen a movement signed M&W, Ontario.

I don't think it can be a Longines 13.33, as that is a chronograph movement.

This is the 13.34 movement from a Mappin Campaign watch (a lot of sales guff on that site) where the movement is signed Longines.










This watch has a Longines 13.33.


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## Eaglegale (Jan 31, 2020)

spinynorman said:


> I don't think it can be a Longines 13.33, as that is a chronograph movement.


 Isn't the chrono version the 13.33Z rather than 13.33 with no suffix?

I found this on the vintagewatchstraps website.

"Introduced in 1910, the Longines 13.34 savonnette movement was used in many wristwatches during the Great War. The number 13.34 shows that is a 13 ligne movement, the unique number 34 after the decimal place identifies the savonnette layout. At the same time a Lépine version was also introduced, the calibre 13.33."

There's this also, about another Longines movement:

"The 13.81 is a Lépine calibre which was first manufactured in 1903. Because it is a Lépine movement, when used in a wristwatch the small seconds would be at 9 o'clock, so in this wristwatch the small seconds have been omitted. A sibling movement of the 13.81, the 13.82 has a savonnette layout which is more suitable for use in wristwatches."

Does that explain why there is no seconds hand on the watch in question, unlike the 13.34 movements I've seen on the web which all seem to have a sub seconds at 6 o'clock.

As an aside, as far as I can tell from the serial number the watch dates from 1917.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Eaglegale said:


> Isn't the chrono version the 13.33Z rather than 13.33 with no suffix?


 Yes, I think you're right. However, these are the 13.33s I can find. Incidentally, I have a 13.34 with no seconds. Confusing.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

Good posts, thanks all. Here are a couple more pictures, Yes is a 1 bear Swiss stamp hallmark, stamped 0.935. Interesting about Leicester, I am not sure if M&W had location is New York. I just assumed England. The Swiss stamp is clear on the movement and it is stamped 13.33. It is a little confusing watch as these vintages watches usually are. I enjoy the investigation as much as the finding.

Polish or not to polish? Any thoughts?

Sorry f














orgot to add Images.



Now a Doxa Fan said:


> Good posts, thanks all. Here are a couple more pictures, Yes is a 1 bear Swiss stamp hallmark, stamped 0.935. Interesting about Leicester, I am not sure if M&W had location is New York. I just assumed England. The Swiss stamp is clear on the movement and it is stamped 13.33. It is a little confusing watch as these vintages watches usually are. I enjoy the investigation as much as the finding.
> 
> Polish or not to polish? Any thoughts?
> 
> ...


 I just noticed the 4 and # to the left and right of the Swiss Bear stamp. It all means something!



Now a Doxa Fan said:


> Good posts, thanks all. Here are a couple more pictures, Yes is a 1 bear Swiss stamp hallmark, stamped 0.935. Interesting about Leicester, I am not sure if M&W had location is New York. I just assumed England. The Swiss stamp is clear on the movement and it is stamped 13.33. It is a little confusing watch as these vintages watches usually are. I enjoy the investigation as much as the finding.
> 
> Polish or not to polish? Any thoughts?
> 
> ...


 Sorry 4 and 3. I really need to read my post before submitting!!!


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## Eaglegale (Jan 31, 2020)

spinynorman said:


> Yes, I think you're right. However, these are the 13.33s I can find. Incidentally, I have a 13.34 with no seconds. Confusing


 Yes, those 13.33's don't look like the OP's one. It is, as you say, confusing. Fun though!



Now a Doxa Fan said:


> Polish or not to polish? Any thoughts?


 As they say about vintage cars: "It's only original once". Other than getting it working, I would leave it alone and live with the patina. Every time you polish silver you take a little bit of it away.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

@Now a Doxa Fan@Eaglegale

Here's a Mappin & Webb "trench" watch with 13.34 signed B&Co (Baume). It seems like the base plates and bridges were interchangeable. 















Then a 14ct gold watch, engraved for 1917 on the caseback, with a movement signed 'Mappin & Webb, "Albemarle" - Montreal'. I think there's something not quite right going on with the dial, but it shows that M&W had a presence in North America that far back and they sometimes signed the movement with where it was sold, rather than where it was made. (This is was the watch I meant when I said M&W Ontario).







https://www.ebay.ca/itm/153251150617

Mappin and Webb opened a branch in Lausanne, Switzerland on 24th Oct 1910. The trademarks registered there that I can find all relate to cutlery and silver plate.

Still can't find any connection to Leicester, either in UK or US. The only watchmaker I'm aware of in Leicester UK was Services and I can't imagine what they would be doing for Mappin & Webb. M&W UK branches listed in a 1901 advert were London, Sheffield, Liverpool, Birmingham, Bradford, Bristol, Carlisle, Chester, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Kilmarnock, Ipswich, Manchester, Wilmslow.

I have no idea what the 4 and the 3 relate to. Everything I know about Swiss hallmarks is here: https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/swisshallmarks.php


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## Eaglegale (Jan 31, 2020)

spinynorman said:


> Here's a Mappin & Webb "trench" watch with 13.34 signed B&Co (Baume). It seems like the base plates and bridges were interchangeable.


 That's great research!


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Eaglegale said:


> That's great research!


 @Now a Doxa Fan Light bulb just gone on. The "Leicester" on your movement is in quotes, like the "Albemarle" on the Montreal one. So more likely it's a model name than the place (though there is an Albemarle Township in Canada, named after the Earl of Albermarle).


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

So next week this watch goes to my watch maker. I put a bug in his ear about it, he raised an eyebrow. He is working an watch for me currently and he is always a little apprehensive when I tell him I found a very old watch I want him to look at.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

Trench watch is going to my watch maker tomorrow, I will let you know what he is going to do with it. If it is a go I really want a vintage band to put on it. Suggestions?


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## Stan Cooper (11 mo ago)

Now a Doxa Fan said:


> Trench watch is going to my watch maker tomorrow, I will let you know what he is going to do with it. If it is a go I really want a vintage band to put on it. Suggestions?


 For straps, I'd recommend David Boettcher. He has a variety of designs and colors.

My Designs of Watch Straps and Watch Bands for Great War Era Wristwatches (vintagewatchstraps.com)


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

So, had my horologist look at today. Quote "hmmm, hmmm, hmmm, something funky here. Leave it with me and I will make it my bench project. I do like these challenges you bring me, but please next time make it something from the 1970's"!

So he may be able bring it to life. It wasn't an out right "now way" so we are 50% there. Fingers crossed.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

Update from my Horologist:

I've been working on movement and hairspring for the last couple of days and now I'm working on the balance staff pivot right now.

Basically what the problem was the balance staff pivot was damaged due to a drop or something like that. I'm burnishing the pivot now and it looks pretty good. As for the hair spring it was pinned too long so the timekeeping capability was pretty poor so I adjusted the length of the hair spring and trued it up so the balance wheel oscillates correctly.

I should have it completed next week as there's not a lot of work on the bench right now.

:clap: :thumbs_up:


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

I pick up the finished watch tomorrow. I will post the pictures and my comments Sunday. Anticipation is killing me. My watch guy isn't saying much and I didn't rush him. The fact he isn't cursing me out is a good thing!!


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

All that are interested, here are the images of my reconditioned Trench watch. It has received a total overhaul, some burnishing of the Pivot, main spring adjustment, dismantle, cleaning and a glass crystal that is the same age as the watch. (NOS) My watch guy bought out a 79 year old maker 48 years ago and on a whim he looked in this old box of crystals that he acquired at the time and was shocked he had a glass crystal labeled 1908 that fit perfectly. I still have the original yellowed crystal in my possession. He said "so far you are pretty lucky guy". The movement is 100% Longines. It is keeping excellent time. A replica period band is on order and I will post an image of the finished product once it is fitted with the band.

See the before and after pics. The dial is white porcelain and flawless, Untouched by him. Any flaws you might see in the after pics are from my crappy camera.

Please have at it and comment on the watch, try not to hurt my feelings to much as I am still in the honeymoon stage. but I think it looks amazing for a watch that is 114 years old. To polish or not to polish. Every article I have read on old silver says it is meant to shine! The tarnish didn't do it justice.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Amazing. Looks incredible. Enjoy your "new" very old watch.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

spinynorman said:


> Amazing. Looks incredible. Enjoy your "new" very old watch.


 Thanks. Some people would keep it roached looking. The tarnish will eventually come back, maybe not as thick as it was, but I decided to shine er up!


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Now a Doxa Fan said:


> Thanks. Some people would keep it roached looking. The tarnish will eventually come back, maybe not as thick as it was, but I decided to shine er up!


 I understand both sides of that argument. I think it depends on the watch. Much of the argument about polishing is that it removes metal, which may remove the sharpness from corners, but obviously that's not a problem here and if you're not planning to polish it every week, where's the harm. It can also be said to be part of the history of the watch, or it could just be filth. It looks spectacular cleaned up, find it a nice, appropriate strap and enjoy wearing it (I'll add my endorsement of David Boettcher's vintagewatchstraps.com. I have one on my 1925 Sir John Bennett Ltd.)


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

A correction to my post. The dial is not porcelain. The dial is Vitreous enamel made from powdered glass. The branding Mappin & Webb on the dial is also a Vitreous ink along with the numbers. All fired into enameled glass. This is why the dial is as pristine as it is. All this info comes from David Boettcher's website if you wish to understand more about this type of watch and this particular dial making process. As very excellence website. Thanks David.

https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/dialsandhands.php#enameldials


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

I contacted Longines about the watch an hear is the response.

Dear customer,

We thank you for contacting us and for your interest in Longines watches.

Further to your request, we are pleased to provide the information contained in Longines' registers:

The original serial number 3'505'467 identifies a wristwatch in 935 silver. It is fitted with a Longines manually wound mechanical movement, caliber 13.33. It was invoiced on 4 May 1918 to the A.Wittnauer Company, which was at that time our agent for Canada.

The reference to Mappin and Webb on the dial also appears in our registers. It seems that, although the company was founded in England, the jewellers had a subsidiairy in Montreal at some point.

We trust that we have responded satisfactorily to your request and remain at your entire disposal for any additional information.

Best regards,

*Nicolas Chauvy*
Branding and Heritage

Compagnie des Montres Longines Francillon SA
Phone +41 32 942 54 06 - Fax +41 32 942 52 39


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Now a Doxa Fan said:


> I contacted Longines about the watch an hear is the response.
> 
> Dear customer,
> 
> ...


 I must say, I think the way Longines responds to these questions promptly and without charge puts the rest of their peers to shame. Even within the Swatch group, Omega for example, expects to be paid rather a lot for doing no more. Very interesting information too, in that it gives you a date and brings in the Wittnauer connection. It seems the movement went to Canada, it looks like already cased. "Leicester" then must be the Mappin model name of that style of watch. Fascinating, thanks for coming back with the updates, so often we don't see the full outcome.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

I am still trying to dig a little further as to the Montreal connection and the M&P store. I may hit a dead end with any info I could get from M&P. I asked Longines if they could provide a scan of the invoice to the company in Canada. This may be a dead end as well.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Now a Doxa Fan said:


> I am still trying to dig a little further as to the Montreal connection and the M&P store. I may hit a dead end with any info I could get from M&P. I asked Longines if they could provide a scan of the invoice to the company in Canada. This may be a dead end as well.


 I assume you recognise Wittnauer. In case not there's quite a good history here.

https://oldtimewatches.weebly.com/blog/vintage-wittnauer-watch


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

Here is the response from my additional question to Longines. This company is pretty amazing. This is pretty cool from 1918. I just need a good translator to help me, with the writings. They also sent what looks like the quality check reports. I would love to share these online, but was asked not too, so I am going to respect the request. I will keep you updated with what I find in the translations.

PS Mappin and Webb was ZERO help. Only keep records for the required 7 years. So the Montreal link so far is DOA.

Dear Customer,

Please find attached the scans of our registers. We kindly ask you to keep them for your personal use only and not to share them online.

We hope this information will be useful to you and remain at your disposal for any further request.

Sincerely yours,

*Nicolas Chauvy*
Branding and Heritage

Compagnie des Montres Longines Francillon SA
Phone +41 32 942 54 06 - Fax +41 32 942 52 39


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## Eaglegale (Jan 31, 2020)

Now a Doxa Fan said:


> PS Mappin and Webb was ZERO help. Only keep records for the required 7 years.


 I'm guessing that they've lost or disposed of many records, as they have changed ownership so many times in recent years.

Wikipedia says: "Mappin & Webb merged with Elkington and Walker & Hall in 1963, the merged company being named British Silverware Ltd. In 1973, Mappin & Webb was bought by Sears Holdings Ltd. The company was eventually bought by Baugur, which became insolvent in 2010. After a brief spell in the Asprey Garrard group, the company now forms part of the retail group Watches of Switzerland, formerly Aurum Holdings."

Having said that though, I can't believe that a company like them does not have a treasure trove of documents tucked away somewhere. I reckon that if you were a member of the royal family they might suddenly find that they do have the stuff you were looking for. They make much of their royal warrants.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

I wonder if Watches of Switzerland could be more help, it may be any records are stored there. When I was trying to research a part of Great Universal Stores, I contacted the PR director of Experian via Linkedin and he did try to help, though admittedly wasn't able to turn up anything I didn't already know. Another angle would be to look on the companies house website for annual reports that might say something useful. That is difficult though, because what you're looking for might be filed under any number of company names.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Now a Doxa Fan said:


> I just need a good translator to help me, with the writings.


 I find Google Translate is pretty good at French, if you apply a bit of intelligence to the result. Depends how they sent you the documents. If they're in image format, you'll need OCR, unless you want to type it out longhand. There's a little app I use on my Windows PC called Capture2Text, which is pretty good, so long as the source is legible.

Send me a DM if you're getting stuck.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

Here is one translation so far. The wire lugs that hold the strap are 16mm wide, there was some question to whether these were additions to the watch at some later point. Turns out they are original to the watch. The manufacturing registry provided by Longines lists the modifications "attaches pour cuir 16mm", i.e. attachments for a 16mm leather strap. This was very surprising to David of Vintage Watch Straps. "that's very surprising, they evidently started making lugs for wider straps earlier than I thought."


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Now a Doxa Fan said:


> Here is one translation so far. The wire lugs that hold the strap are 16mm wide, there was some question to whether these were additions to the watch at some later point. Turns out they are original to the watch. The manufacturing registry provided by Longines lists the modifications "attaches pour cuir 16mm", i.e. attachments for a 16mm leather strap. This was very surprising to David of Vintage Watch Straps. "that's very surprising, they evidently started making lugs for wider straps earlier than I thought."


 That's great. You know you've got something special when it starts rewriting history.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

I did a bit of a search for Mapp & Webb in Canada, which turned up odd bit and pieces.

From "How it all began up the high street" by Maurice E. Baren via Internet Archive. "By 1858 the company was employing 500 skilled plate workers and also had agencies for their products in America, Canada, Australia and other parts of the world. ... After the First World War some of the more expensive lines were phased out and jewellery, watches, clocks and fancy goods were introduced to a much larger extent." And this collage of their stores worldwide from 1912.









Then, also via Internet Archive, first, from RCD The Goat from July 1923 ("A monthly chronicle of The Royal Canadian Dragoons"), next from McGill Daily March 21st, 1923, the newspaper of McGill University, Montreal, last the same from Oct 1917.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

Nice Spiny, the building in Montreal is still standing. The facade is a little updated, but the structure is the same. I am familiar with the area.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

Spiny, how do I email you an image of a entry in this registry. It relates to the "Leicester" and I am wondering if you can make out the writing/translation. As you know I can't post here!


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Now a Doxa Fan said:


> Spiny, how do I email you an image of a entry in this registry. It relates to the "Leicester" and I am wondering if you can make out the writing/translation. As you know I can't post here!


 I've sent you a DM. You should be able to reply to that.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

Just to keep everyone else up to date. One column in the registry has Mappin & Webb ,Leicester+le nombre de pierre. (I could not make out the hand writing.) This is what M&W wanted inscribed on the movement. See above picture of movement.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

On the registry there is a entry which we believe is "mouv. carrées". Is their anyone who might be able to translate this as it relates to watch making terms?


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Great thread, @Now a Doxa Fan, and thanks everyone for all their contributions.

I cannot really offer anything more myself that hasn't already been covered concerning the history side of your watch but I did notice that your question about polishing the case wasn't tackled by many contributors. With your particular watch, there was no intricate relief work on the watch that might have been worn away by polishing it, and leaving the watch to build up excessive tarnish could have caused problems later on. The key is to keep polishing down to a minimum and allow a certain amount of tarnish to exist where it enhances highlights rather than polishing to death every single crevice. Now that you have polished the watch, it should take on a nice gentle glow that will show its age and the beauty of silver, and hopefully, it won't need another polish for some considerable time.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

I am still translating the regestry. From above post does anyone know what "mouv. carrées" would mean? I have asked Longines for the column titles/headings. Hopefully they come through again.

In the mean time hear is the finished watch with the new band. Not a horrible looking watch. Imagine the stroies it could tell! Bringing histroy back to life!

PS Sorry David I ordered this after you said you do not have this style with a 16mm strap.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Now a Doxa Fan said:


> I am still translating the regestry. From above post does anyone know what "mouv. carrées" would mean? I have asked Longines for the column titles/headings. Hopefully they come through again.
> 
> In the mean time hear is the finished watch with the new band. Not a horrible looking watch. Imagine the stroies it could tell! Bringing histroy back to life!
> 
> PS Sorry David I ordered this after you said you do not have this style with a 16mm strap.


 That is a beautiful watch and the strap suits it very well. I guess your PS means it didn't come from vintagewatchstraps. So can I ask where you got it?

On "mouv. carrées", the literal translation would be "square movement" I think, but that doesn't make any sense. I did find "carrée" used in relation to watch movements other than the shape, seems to be something to do with the winding mechanism, but I couldn't see why that would be specifically in the Longines specification for M&W.


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## Now a Doxa Fan (8 mo ago)

spinynorman said:


> That is a beautiful watch and the strap suits it very well. I guess your PS means it didn't come from vintagewatchstraps. So can I ask where you got it?


 Correct it was not from Vintage Watch Straps. It was purchased from "Pride & Bright". I would of got it from David, but I was excited to get a band on this watch, and David first correspondence said he didn't have this style in 16mm.


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