# Bhi - Tourbillon Watch



## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

So last night I was browsing the BHI website and noticed a small advertisement for the "BHI 150" Flying Tourbillon Anniversary Watch... There's been alot of talk around here about the Chinese Tourbillon watches, but I haven't noticed any talk about this one... unless it is Chinese too? from the picture, the watch looks simple and well made. It's advertised as a hand wound 21,600 vph movement, (what ever that means!) with a mineral glass front and back. Doesn't seem to give any specs on the size of the watch, but it looks quite chunky (10mm) - then again I think all Tourbillon watches are... Its retail price for non members of the BHI is Â£349, roughly 700 US $. Definately a cheap price, compared to the Frank Muller's and Bregeut's, which makes me think who the hell has _really_ made it... Surely if its from the BHI it must be of a decent quality though, well you'd think! - in which case origin is of no matter










Doesn't look too shabby; Nice dial and a simple design

So what do you all think?

Vincero


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## born t (May 8, 2005)

That is a Chinese tourbillon, and its quality is nowhere near Swiss Toubillions, even the cheapest ones used in Chronoswiss watches and such like. These Chinese tourbillons go round as you would expect, but they are so badly made that they practically do not benefit the performance of the watches.

Whether this partcular piece justifies a price tag of Â£349 is debatable. I personally would consider it a waste of money, and would rather buy a simple Swiss or German watch which is better made. If you are familair with Swiss or German watches, you are likely to be disappointed by this Chinese offering.

Born

**********


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## adrian (May 23, 2004)

It is a Chinese tourbillon but I have no experience with it.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Vincero said:


> Surely if its from the BHI it must be of a decent quality though, well you'd think! - in which case origin is of no matter


I agree...I can't believe the BHI would put their name, and reputation, onto a watch that wouldn't stand up to scrutiny. Looks a nice watch...shame about the Roman numerals  .


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

born t said:


> That is a Chinese tourbillon, and its quality is nowhere near Swiss Toubillions, even the cheapest ones used in Chronoswiss watches and such like. These Chinese tourbillons go round as you would expect, but they are so badly made that they practically do not benefit the performance of the watches.
> 
> Whether this partcular piece justifies a price tag of Â£349 is debatable. I personally would consider it a waste of money, and would rather buy a simple Swiss or German watch which is better made. If you are familair with Swiss or German watches, you are likely to be disappointed by this Chinese offering.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your point of view it's much appreciated. From what I can understand even the best Swiss tourbillons don't offer any benefit to the performance of watches either... They're a show piece. Some people around seem to be pleased with the quality of these Chinese Tourbillions, any one with experience please chip in... Silver Hawk, I don't mind the Roman numerals  as for the BHI, well... its the BHI, it would be an insane move supporting a timepiece with no merits! maybe they're trying to bring attention to the serious Chinese watch making industry, then again there is no mention of China in their description, hmmm I hope this topic stays alive.

Vincero


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## bry1975 (Feb 6, 2004)

Down right disgrace imo. BUT have you been around the BHI HQ luckily it's only just down the road from us.

Regs

Bry


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

bry1975 said:


> Down right disgrace imo. BUT have you been around the BHI HQ luckily it's only just down the road from us.
> 
> Regs
> 
> Bry


Never been, I'm new to watches, I take it you wont be going again though :lol:

Vincero


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## bry1975 (Feb 6, 2004)

It's very much run down, sad really


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

So, everyone believes that the only decent tourbillons are manufactured at $20,000 (at bare minimum) a piece in Switzerland. Hmm ok, so it's the grail of just about every watch maker, build a tourbillion wristwatch and you've proved that you are an amazing horologist... Still, in reality a Tourbillon is only for asthetics anyway, I'm pretty sure it only works in theory... So $20,000 for something that looks nice? nah, only if I was a millionaire. Sure, tonnes of craftsmanship has gone into building a Swiss tourbillon - and precious metals in some of the even higher models have been used, but $20,000 worth? I don't think so... When it comes to "high end" tourbillons I think its more about pandering to a millionaire's ego. Of course there is a fine line, after all - why the hell are we buying mechanical watches if we want the best accuracy anyway? craftsmanship is on one side of the line and asthetics is on the other, a good watch has a fine balance between the two, without overdoing or canceling out one or the other.

Just my thoughts, though I've never owned as tourbillon watch, so maybe I'm not qualified to express an opinion.

Vincero


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## Chascomm (Sep 9, 2005)

It's a Liaoning cal. 5010. One of the earlier Chinese tourbillons on the market and particularly favoured by Million Smart Enterprises:










http://www.lnwatch.com/product.asp

For more general stuff about Chinese tourbillons:

http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/inde...itle=Tourbillon

Regarding the quality of the BHI watch, I'd have to say it is quite unlikely that they would dare put their name to a sub-standard watch. Which makes this look like extremely good value for money compared to some of the 5010s of dubious pedigree found on ebay. Yes it is a shame that they did not choose a 100% British watch, but where are you going to find one of them?

I wonder if this watch was cased-up in the UK? I guess you'd have to call the BHI to find out.


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks Chascomm, I'll be sure to look at thosewhen I get home from work... I thought exactly the same about the BHI watches and the ebay watches of dubious origin... Surely the BHI ones would be of a much higher standard.

Thanks,

Vincero


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

I looked at the links you gave me... One was in Chinese though. The Watch Wiki article lists the Lianoning Tourbillon as one of the cheapest around... Then again, what would you expect for Â£349.00, I'm pretty sure someone on here owns a Chinese (Samson and co?) tourbillon watch, maybe they could offer their experiences with these.

Vincero


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## johndozier (Mar 2, 2008)

I have a no-name Chinese tourbillon, with power reserve indicator. I have had it for six months. It keeps decent time, is well made and has had no problems. Is the quality of construction up to the standards of the 20K Swiss made units, of course not, but I cannot fault the qaulity for $600. The Chinese are doing some remarkable things for the money. Give them another 5 years and the Swiss may be in for a real shock. Since the BHI watch is from the same factory as mine, I would say it is a good deal. If you need more info, please ask.Kindest regards, Dr.Dozier sends


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

I emailed BHI in regards to the watch and this is what the General Manager (Martin Taylor) of BHI had to say;

"The main reason for selling it is as a BHI 150th anniversary special is to increase ownership of tourbillons, and stimulate interest in the world of mechanical watchmaking - clearly an important area for the Institute, and of course as a commemorative collectors' piece to celebrate the anniverary. But, let's face it, you're not going to be getting Swiss quality at this price, and I'm not going to suggest that you are. Having said that, the feedback from customers so far has been very positive indeed. And this story is true... one of our (fussy) watch experts, after receiving one of the first of our tourbillons proudly displayed a timing machine print out comparing it with his Â£17,000 Swiss tourbillon - showing that ours was the more stable by far!

I've put a weighty solid bracelet on mine, and I am delighted with it.

The decision is yours! "

Didn't mention anything specific, I asked how often it had to be wound and how accurate it is etc... How often does yours have to be wound johndozier?

Thanks alot,

Vincero


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## blackandgolduk (Apr 25, 2005)

Vincero said:


> I emailed BHI in regards to the watch and this is what the General Manager (Martin Taylor) of BHI had to say;
> 
> "The main reason for selling it is as a BHI 150th anniversary special is to increase ownership of tourbillons, and stimulate interest in the world of mechanical watchmaking - clearly an important area for the Institute, and of course as a commemorative collectors' piece to celebrate the anniverary. But, let's face it, you're not going to be getting Swiss quality at this price, and I'm not going to suggest that you are. Having said that, the feedback from customers so far has been very positive indeed. And this story is true... one of our (fussy) watch experts, after receiving one of the first of our tourbillons proudly displayed a timing machine print out comparing it with his Â£17,000 Swiss tourbillon - showing that ours was the more stable by far!
> 
> ...


What a refreshing, honest and bull5hit free answer. I'm impressed!


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

blackandgolduk said:


> Vincero said:
> 
> 
> > I emailed BHI in regards to the watch and this is what the General Manager (Martin Taylor) of BHI had to say;
> ...


Same, looks like they're proud to be suppourting a Chinese movement, at least they're not making it out to be something it isn't.

Vincero


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## NormanF (Jun 28, 2006)

They're not trying to sell a Swiss tourbillon. I think Mr. Taylor made that clear in his letter. A tourbillon is a very challenging complication. And if a watch expert thinks a Chinese 5010 ca Liaoning movement is nearly the equivalent of a Swiss movement on a very expensive Swiss watch, that's quite a tribute! Its really fascinating they manged to do the impossible at BHI - make a very beautiful watch for so little money!


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## NormanF (Jun 28, 2006)

I think it was cased up in the UK with a Chinese movement. The latter are not that difficult to import. They wanted to show what could be done within the constraints of design and price. Their members are not getting a Swiss tourbillon but they are getting a genuine tourbillon. And the price is reasonable compared with that of similar flying tourbillons found on eBay.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

I think its a good thing they have done this, bringing a Tourbillon to the masses.

Well done them 

Martin Taylor seems very honest and sensible in his reply....


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

jasonm said:


> I think its a good thing they have done this, bringing a Tourbillon to the masses.
> 
> Well done them
> 
> Martin Taylor seems very honest and sensible in his reply....


Yes, and it was very good of him to reply... At the very least this watch is a collectors item,as it's related to one of the worlds best horological istitutes...

Has anyone seen the Sea - Gull Double tourbillon on their home website? looks nice, still out of most peoples budgets though! :lol: 200,000 Y

Thanks!

Vincero


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## Steve's Dad (Dec 19, 2007)

Vincero said:


> I looked at the links you gave me... One was in Chinese though. The Watch Wiki article lists the Lianoning Tourbillon as one of the cheapest around... Then again, what would you expect for Â£349.00, I'm pretty sure someone on here owns a Chinese (Samson and co?) tourbillon watch, maybe they could offer their experiences with these.
> 
> Vincero


Err.....that would be me then.










I cannot fault it but then I know squat about watches.

I bought it from a forum member for a whole lot less than Â£349!

Surely you are aware that Alpha make tourbillons?


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## blackandgolduk (Apr 25, 2005)

So are the Alpha and Samson watches genuine Tourbillions or are they 'open-heart' look-a-likes? I'm astounded that Tourbillions are available for a few hundred quid.


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## Rotundus (May 7, 2012)

do not fear i am back to ask the obviously flippin' stupid question -

what is so special about tourbillon mechanism?

why should it not be possible to manufacture for less than loads a a dosh?

why if something isnt swiss is it assumed to be inferior?

ok that was three questions, but i like monty python what can i say...


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

blackandgolduk said:


> So are the Alpha and Samson watches genuine Tourbillions or are they 'open-heart' look-a-likes? I'm astounded that Tourbillions are available for a few hundred quid.


Be astounded, I understand that there area few 'types' of Tourbillions avaiable and these are the 'easy' ones and they can get very complicated....But they are true T's.....



> what is so special about tourbillon mechanism?


Basicly....( there is a non basic answer but it would be easier on both of us if you looked it up ) a Tourbillion cage is meant to counteract the force of gravity on the balance and therefore makes to watch more accurate....I think...


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

desmondus rotundus said:


> do not fear i am back to ask the obviously flippin' stupid question -
> 
> what is so special about tourbillon mechanism?
> 
> ...


1.)The Tourbillon was developed to try and fix the problem of gravity affecting the time keeping quality of pocket watches. The theory was that because a pocket watch sat upright all day in the front pocket, gravity was pulling down on the movement, thus making it lose time... The Tourbillon was designed to spin the whole escapement around 360 degrees in a minute, thus theoretically working WITH gravity rather than against it.

2.)It's considered special because they are so difficult to make! the carrige which spins the escapement around must be very light, otherwise the mechanisim will not work. They're so expensive because only a hand full of people can actually make them, and usually the very rarest metals are used in doing so - not only for asthetics but because many of the rarest metals are also among some of the lightest too.

3.)Well for one, China does have a reputation for creating cheap crap, to be blunt. It certainley doesnt help that some of the companies using these movements try to make out that these are of Swiss heritage in order to increase sales and credibility... Which is a shame, and definately not the right way to go in my opinion! The Swiss are seen as the best at making watches, so I'm guessing for this reason alone they can jack up prices too... The Chinese movements in all watches are not as good as the Swiss ones, but again this is down to preference and opinion - at the end of the day if your Chinese watch doesn't break and lasts a life time and keeps deent time then does the qualty difference really matter?

Vincero


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

jasonm said:


> blackandgolduk said:
> 
> 
> > So are the Alpha and Samson watches genuine Tourbillions or are they 'open-heart' look-a-likes? I'm astounded that Tourbillions are available for a few hundred quid.
> ...


I thought the Alphas were just exposed balance wheels, but the Samson's are definately real...

Vincero


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## rhaythorne (Jan 12, 2004)

The Alpha is definitely _not_ a true tourbillon and I'm not convinced that that particular Samson is either, but I can't tell for sure from the pic. The Alphas just have exposed balance wheels with an extra "propeller" shaped wheel that goes round to mimic the look of a "carousel" type tourbillon in which the escapement and balance wheel are rotated about one axis. The really clever (and expensive) ones can do more than one axis.


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## Rotundus (May 7, 2012)

so its a lot of effort and cash to produce a mechanical watch which is as accurate as a 50 quid quartz.

dont get me wrong i like watches of any type - but this is just not my bag i suppose.

its a bit like hill walking then. i have been all over ireland and scotland and some of wales. that said i would not really want to try everest.

but there are those who do and will die trying. each to their own.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

Vincero said:


> 1.)The Tourbillon was developed to try and fix the problem of gravity affecting the time keeping quality of pocket watches. The theory was that because a pocket watch sat upright all day in the front pocket, gravity was pulling down on the movement, thus making it lose time... The Tourbillon was designed to spin the whole escapement around 360 degrees in a minute, thus theoretically working WITH gravity rather than against it.
> 
> 2.)It's considered special because they are so difficult to make! the carrige which spins the escapement around must be very light, otherwise the mechanisim will not work. They're so expensive because only a hand full of people can actually make them, and usually the very rarest metals are used in doing so - not only for asthetics but because many of the rarest metals are also among some of the lightest too.


what he said :lol:


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Vincero said:


> jasonm said:
> 
> 
> > blackandgolduk said:
> ...


Sorry, yeah, I was refering to the one from the BHI


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## Chascomm (Sep 9, 2005)

Steve said:


> Vincero said:
> 
> 
> > I looked at the links you gave me... One was in Chinese though. The Watch Wiki article lists the Lianoning Tourbillon as one of the cheapest around... Then again, what would you expect for Â£349.00, I'm pretty sure someone on here owns a Chinese (Samson and co?) tourbillon watch, maybe they could offer their experiences with these.
> ...


umm... I don't want to sound picky, but both of those look like either the Shanghai cal 2L or more probably Sea-gull cal ST25 open-heart movements, with the cosmetic tourbillon cage rotating around a fixed escapement. Both fine movements but not a real tourbillon, unlike the following:

Sea-Gull ST80

















and the gratuitously magnificent ST8080


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## Chascomm (Sep 9, 2005)

blackandgolduk said:


> So are the Alpha and Samson watches genuine Tourbillions or are they 'open-heart' look-a-likes? I'm astounded that Tourbillions are available for a few hundred quid.


Both Alpha and Samson offer open-hearts, but only only Samson offers a genuine tourbillon. They're a bit outside the price-range that Alpha are targeting.

The cheapest tourbillons on the market currently are from Quixotic Watches (terry Allison's latest venture) with a choice of either Liaoning 5010 or Sea-Gull ST80 (probably they bought a mixed bag of whatever was cheapest the day they went to market). Unfortunately cases and dials are as ugly as sin.


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## johndozier (Mar 2, 2008)

To answer the request, my tourbillon has a 50 hour power reserve. Hope this helps. Regards, Dr. Dozier sends


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## Vincero (Jul 8, 2008)

Thanks for all of the replies. This is beoming an insightful topic... One problem with buying these Tourbillons is getting them serviced.

Vincero

PS - How much is that Dual Tourbillon Chascomm?


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## johndozier (Mar 2, 2008)

Vincero, I bought mine on the bay from an English seller who offers a two year warranty. I would have to send it to England, but his feedback is impressive. I would buy from him again. He offers black and white dials and chrome and rose gold. I would go with the white and chrome, makes a very impressive watch, with great attention to detail, especially for the the price.


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