# Care And Feeding Of A 400 Day Clock - Couple Of Questions



## aesmith (Aug 7, 2009)

Hi,

Here is our 400 day clock, it's a small Kieninger & Obergfell "Kundo" model, made in West Germany so I'm guessing '50s or '60s. It hasn't been in service for a couple of years and now it's not very keen to keep going again.










I believe it's out of beat, because if you set it running with not quite enough amplitude to run it will tick in one direction and not the other. Also when running it overshoots more in one direction that the other. Do the experts agree with the diagnosis?

Assuming you do, any tips for setting it. There's an adjustment to rotate the whole torsion assembly which will make that adjustment, but its quite difficult to make a small change.










I tried to take a picture of the escapement which looks like it uses metal blocks where a watch would have jewels.










Any comments or suggestions welcome,

Tony S


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## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

It sounds like it is wildly out of beat..........you need a special tool to adjust the beat, DON'T undo the screw! This just holds the support block underneath for the wire, it is this block which needs to be turned, which is usually moved only 5 or 10 degrees...........

If the clock has not been serviced in a while then it's gonna need a full strip and lubrication and polish to the pinions, these clocks only use a very small amount of power to turn the pendulum, so the gear train, motion work, mainspring & barrel and escapement have to be highly efficient and low friction when running, unlike an ordinary 8 day clock which uses large amounts of power

Proper setting up and regulating of Anniversary clocks is a time consuming and quite in depth practice. You can buy books on the subject or send the clock to your local clock repairman.


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## aesmith (Aug 7, 2009)

Cheers, I hope its not quite as bad as that. Angular difference is actually quite small, although I appreciate that any inefficiency is likely to me enough to sap power and stop the movement. The clock was overhauled before we got it, and it was running fine up to the time we packed it when we moved house.

What sort of tool would be used to move the block that you refer to? There doesn't seem to be anything that a tool would hold onto, there's just the block with the clamping screw through it. This is the best I managed for a photo of the arrangement. The other side of the block just has the end of the screw visible but not really protruding beyond the surface. Moving the screw on top does rotate the block without loosening it, but its very hard to make a small movement.










(photo taken with the plastic guard removed)

Thanks for the comments.


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## dobra (Aug 20, 2009)

Meadows and Passmore (M&P) near Brighton publish a small handbook for under Â£10, which comprehensively looks at Anniversary clocks. I have made three different clocks run well, but a Kaiser (with a stellar face) has proved to be a pig!!! I bought a pack of three suspension wire from M&P, having sent their form back to Tech Support to decide the exact size. Still the clock won't run properly for more than a few minutes. Soldier on.

Have a look at their website....http://www.m-p.co.uk/index.htm Good luck!

Mike


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## aesmith (Aug 7, 2009)

Cheers. I'm reasonably confident. I remember when we first brought it home it took a few days to settle down. I've no reason to think anything's out of kilter other than possibly the lubrication being a bit older and stickier.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

There is a chapter in Donald de Carle's book 'Practical Clock Repairing' entitled '400 day German Clocks', which goes into fairly comprehensive detail on examining, stripping, cleaning, assembly and adjustment of these clocks. Check out your local library for a copy (or see if they can get it for you). Alternatively you should be able to get a copy from that well known mail order emporium with the name of a long jungle river! (where I got my copy).


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## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

On most of the 400 day clocks that I've repaired, adjusting the beat was done by rotating the top "screw". Very fiddly job, requiring the smallest of movements. You can also adjust the height of the fork on the wire, to get a good amplitude, but no "flutter".

The slightest kink in the suspension means fitting a replacement.

After bushing, pivot polishing, cleaning, and fitting a new spring, I wind the spring 3 turns and set the beat. Leave to run for a couple of days, then wind a few more turns and check the amplitude. Should be at least 270 degrees at the pendulum, either side. Leave to run for another couple of days, then wind fully and recheck the beat and amplitude.

These clocks are actually really simple to work on. The hardest part is finding a suspension that works correctly - not always the one listed, as spring material can vary. I've resorted to thinning the wire slightly to get a good action.


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## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

Hi Friends, I did not wish to go all technical but..............here goes!! 

The first picture shows the special tool attached to the clock, this Horolovar 400day beat adjusting tool can usually be purchased for around Â£15.

The Second picture is a close up of it being attached to the suspension support block under the bracket

The Third picture is a pencil diagram which i use to measure and adjust the anchor pin as it must move 4' from centre to have the correct impulse to the pendulum and also it shows whether the Graham escapement and teeth are in good order, the escapment must only release on the 4' mark

The fourth picture shows the beat traingle i use which fits under the pendulum and to measure impulse and adjust the beat, 270' or the marks on the dotted line are the minimum you need, as long as the room is quiet you will here the clock "tick" and the anchor move over, at that "tick" you have to look at the protractor under the movement and adjust the beat so the "tick" is even both sides.

The picture also shows a packet of Horlovar wire which is "the" wire to have as it is made of special Elinvar temperature compensating wire, it is also used on some clock pendulum rods, usually Regulator clocks. If your not using this wire but the normal wire, or complete suspensions made up for you it will not work properly, it is quite easy to make your own suspension up, you just need some sharp snips or a small pair of scissors on a penknife which i use, and a vernier caliper.

The Horolovar Clock Repair guide book is a wonderful help and contains all you need to know on setting up and adjustment

I hope this helps you, as you no doubt gather 400 day clocks are a passion of mine


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## aesmith (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks for all the comments. The more technical the better, even if I can't follow then deep detail can sometimes warn that I might get out of my depth.

I hope the "270 degrees at the pendulum, *either side*" isn't applicable in all cases, as our clock has never had that much movement. More like 270 deg in total, 135 to each side. Once running it gradually builds up to about 7/8 of a turn, which is easy enough to sight by eye. It's not so easy to eyeball the overshoot at each end, I was placing markers under the weights marking the tick and judging how much further it continues. It might be easier to time it, time from the tick to the bob passing the mark on the way back.

It's been running since this time yesterday, and keeping time (actually no detectable error, and I set it quite exactly). The beat isn't quite right but it's now very close so I feel inclined to leave it alone. I will need that beat adjusting tool, or something functionally similar to get it closer. One thing I didn't do was test it wound just a couple of turns - I'll have to wait 400 days to do that test now!

I see that the repair book by de Carle seems to be readily available second hand so I might keep my eyes open for a copy.

Fingers crossed it looks like the beast may be running now.


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## clockworks (Apr 11, 2010)

Tony: 270 degrees (plus a bit for safety) total. I typed my reply very early this morning, while rushing to get ready for work!

"Harry":

Will that beat adjusting tool work on clocks with round top mounts (like the OP's), or just those with flats? I don't work on that many 400 day clocks - maybe one or two a year - so I've not felt the need to buy one yet.

Have you ever come across a clock that you just can't regulate, no matter what size wire you use? I've had at least one where I needed a wire in between two Horolovar wire sizes. Very limited adjustment on the pendulum, so I had to thin down a wire slightly (with fine wet or dry paper).

Next time I work on a 400 day, I'm going to try setting the beat using my Microset watch timer.


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## aesmith (Aug 7, 2009)

clockworks said:


> Will that beat adjusting tool work on clocks with round top mounts (like the OP's), or just those with flats?


Good question. I assumed it was the same as mine, and didn't spot the flats. Having said that, since I don't think I'll be working on anything other than my own clock, I think I would make something bespoke to fit.

By the way Meadows & Passmore web site identifies it as the K and O "Minature" movement (as opposed to Midget) so I now have the data sheet with settings etc should the need arise.


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## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

Hi ya, yep it will work on round ones as well as the square ones, its a great tool and you can get the beat exact. If the screw / top support is loose or the suspension block loose where it sits then you will loose a lot of power and pendulum amplitude.........

I got a microset too.......but never used it on one of these......... i just go on listening to it..... 

I have done quite a few anniversary clocks, probably about a hundred......  not all mine i hasten to add!! But never found one i could not adjust........

Some of the early clocks, pre 1900 will only run on a bronze suspension spring, but the vast majority are happy on the Horolovar ones, the main thing is that these clocks do get messed about with, so by the time you get them they may not have the original pendulum, which do vary in weight and their "moment of inertia" which is how wide the weights are from the central axis, some of the smaller "midget" clocks will only run on certain pendulums, also the top support is often changed and not original so it may be giving an incorrect height in relation to the anchor. A small piece of grit in a pinion or tooth will also cause havoc.......

Usually if you have to thin the spring then your just compensating for something else which is not quite right...........Although there will always be an early odd ball clock which needs it!!

Glad someone else enjoys these clocks as much as me


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## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

Just wanted to add a fast way of timing these clocks........Apologies if you already know this.....

The vast majority are 8 beats a min, so once your clock is going, mark one of the pendulums with a piece of paper, then put a mark on the base where the pendulum swings past.

Next get a stopwatch, and when your marked "ball" passes through start the watch, count through 8 times then stop the watch, you should have exactly 60 sec's, if it's less than 60 you got to slow the clock, if its more than 60 you got to speed it up to match. If you can't adjust the pendulum any more or your 4 secs of the "60" your gonna have to change the thickness of the suspension wire

Simples! :thumbup:


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Just a quick query from one who knows nothing about these clocks (apart from what I have read), but do you have to make sure the clock is perfectly level and plumb before making these adjustments....because I would have thought that being even slightly off would affect the way the pendulums hang and swing/rotate. :dntknw:


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## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

Well yes it's nice to get them level

They usually have three adjustable feet underneath, and the pendulum sits inside a small cup at the bottom, so it's quite easy just to adjust the feet and get the pendulum to sit central. Some older ones dont have the feet but you can use a penny to level them out.

These clocks do like something sturdy to sit on, either a wall bracket or on the fireplace, not on a table as the slightest movement becomes greatly exaggerated and can stop the clock


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