# New Drive...permeable Block Paving



## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

We need to extend our drive to accomodate our two son's cars. At present, we have an impervious tarmacadam drive, with drainage at the lowest point. The latest Government specs (2008) state that any extra impervious covering over 5m2 requires planning permission at a cost of Â£150. You do not require planning permission if you intend to lay a permeable concrete block paving system....this is different to a normal block paviour system, which after a few years, becomes impermeable...(look at your local supermarket/DIY centre that has block paving, and you will see puddles) We intend to remove the existing tarmac drive and replace it with a permeable block system.The permeable block paving has a 200mm sub base to absorb the water, and then feed it gradually to the ground below, and larger gaps between the blocks, which are filled with a 6mm grit, rather than the kiln dried sand that is normally used with ordinary block paving. Has anyone used this system...and more importantly, did it cost significantly more than the usual block paving system? My researches show that there may be a slight (extra) difference in price due to the extra material that needs to be removed and carted away. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated. TIA for any advice....Rog.


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## Barryboy (Mar 21, 2006)

Do the job up to top spec then get your son to pay the bill.....

Rob


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## RTM Boy (Jun 1, 2011)

Hi Rog,

The paviors used in permeable system are slightly different from the 'ordinary' ones - as you've said they are designed to be set slightly further apart to help with grit infill and the drainage - and they really need to be laid by someone who knows how to lay a pearmeable system - it's not as straightforward as it may seem. It does work well if laid correctly and you don't need additional drainage. The sort you see in supermarket/DIY car parks is almost always the old style non-permeable type - hence the puddles.

I would recommend you use someone who is trained by the pavoir maker (you can check on their websites eg Marshalls), who will give you the manufacturer guarantee.

So, it will be a bit more expensive to reflect additional expertise in laying and additional materials.

As I understand it, the important point is that the hard standing does not drain off your property in any way. So, if you install a gully drain that leads to a soakaway on your land, you can still use impermeable hard standing. But in what were once front gardens this is very difficult to achieve, which is why permeable hard standing is the best route.

There are alternatives, of course. You can simply remove the tarmac, have the area you want dug out and levelled, lay MOT and then coarse gravel on top. So long as the site doesn't slope and the gravel isn't too deep (otherwise you get wheelspin) it's a cheap, functional alternative.

Another option is to use pre-cast grass guard type system...


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks for the reply, RTM....the gravel option has been examined and rejected, purely because as you say, it's not stable....ruts, waving, gravel spread onto the public highway, and the inability to wheel anything over it...from wheelie bins to pushchairs, and ultimately, wheelchairs. The re-inforced grass system has been considered, but will it get muddy in the winter?...you still have to walk across wet and soggy grass to access your car, and I feel that an unsightly, muddy path will ultimately occur. The guy I'm going to use to do the job is the chap that does all our groundworks on our various sites. He is well versed in all aspects of what is required as to putting in one of these systems...from site prep. to extra drainage, should it be required....my initial enquiry was more to do with costings, than the physical installation. You are quite right about the drainage from the property....this must not access the public highway....the beauty of the permeable system, (and the reason you don't need planning), is that the water drains away under the drive....as long as the underlying soil can dissipate it. There is a test for this....dig a hole 40cm x 40cm x 40cm, in your drive area, and fill it with water. If it empties within 18 hours, you can lay a permeable system...if it doesn't, you can still install the system, but you will have to lay some perforated pipe into the sub base, connected to the roof drains of your house, to carry the water away.


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

Can I be nosy and ask what sort of range of quotes have you had and the area your paving? We need to do the front of ours next year and I'm interested to know roughly how much to budget.

We're on the side of a hill, so our house is about 2ft lower than the road and the garden slopes in two directions (across and towards the house), so gravel is probably no good for us either.

Cheers

Andy


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

The total area is 72m2........of that, 43m2 is the original drive, and the other 29m2 is the new area. As yet I've had no quote for the permeable system...the guy is still working on it, but I've had quotes for the normal block system before, and they ranged from Â£3000-Â£5000. There is a quoted price of around Â£120/m2 in this short video by Marshall, but not sure how current it is.....the bit at the end where they tip a dumper load of water on the drive is astonishing, and really shows how the blocks shed the water.


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## RTM Boy (Jun 1, 2011)

Rog, I had some quotes for laying a marshalls permeable system on a large front garden in London a couple of years ago, and it was quite expensive - can't recall exactly but all in (with VAT) it was about Â£12k for about 40m sq. But at about two and a half times what you've been quoted for the normal block, that was a London price.

I'd def get a second quote anyway.


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## johnl44 (May 9, 2013)

Hi Rog

You can get permeable asphalt as well or put a linear drain in and pipe to a soak away, not much point installing permeable surfacing if you then have to connect to a sw sewer

john


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## trackrat (Jan 23, 2012)

Roger have you thought about imprinted concrete, or is that not viable.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

trackrat said:


> Roger have you thought about imprinted concrete, or is that not viable.


Hi, Trackrat....have heard about and seen examples of imprinted concrete...and it's not really a route I'd like to persue. It's totally impervious, and the two examples I've looked at (both neighbours), have either cracked, or moved within two years of being laid.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

RTM Boy said:


> Rog, I had some quotes for laying a marshalls permeable system on a large front garden in London a couple of years ago, and it was quite expensive - can't recall exactly but all in (with VAT) it was about Â£12k for about 40m sq. But at about two and a half times what you've been quoted for the normal block, that was a London price.
> 
> I'd def get a second quote anyway.





johnl44 said:


> Hi Rog
> 
> You can get permeable asphalt as well or put a linear drain in and pipe to a soak away, not much point installing permeable surfacing if you then have to connect to a sw sewer
> 
> john


Guys...have just researched and found this set of FAQ's from one of the best sites online...pavingexpert.com......here's a link to what they say. I think this answers just about every question, and I'll be returning to my original thoughts about a standard block system, because it can be drained into the border that edges the front garden, and the existing soakaway that copes with my existing drive. BTW...did the soil test...dug a 40cm x 40cm x 40cm hole and filled it with water....drained away within a couple of hours...so no probs there.


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

Roger the Dodger said:


> RTM Boy said:
> 
> 
> > Rog, I had some quotes for laying a marshalls permeable system on a large front garden in London a couple of years ago, and it was quite expensive - can't recall exactly but all in (with VAT) it was about Â£12k for about 40m sq. But at about two and a half times what you've been quoted for the normal block, that was a London price.
> ...


Read number 6 in particular.


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

Tried grasscrete? http://www.grasscrete.com/index.html


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

Those guidelines are a bit of an ar5e for houses like ours, where the drive gets runoff from the pavement, street and our uphill neighbours and funnels it toward the house.

I can't see permeable paving taking the kind of volume we see and most of it would be draining in to ground higher than the house.

I was thinking of installaing more surface drains to reduce the soaking that the side of our house gets.

Ah well, if they gave our neighbours planning permission for their enormous extension and to pave most of their front garden, I'd like to see them justify a refusal for us.


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## chris.ph (Dec 29, 2011)

a couple of runs of eco channels connected into your storm drain should help any road drain off who! check with the council as well as they are liable for road run off and it shouldnt be going down your drive, check the road gullies uphill from you just in case they are full and if they are get the council to clean them


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## Roger the Dodger (Oct 5, 2009)

OK...the quotes are in. This is for a paved area of 72m2, with a specified block system (Brett) I'm not going for the permeable system as my ground can cope with run off. I actually phoned the planning officer to see if I needed planning permission, and she said that as long as the water can be drained to an existing drain, a border, or other permeable area within your property, you won't need planning. It must, however, not drain onto a public highway. Therefore, if your land slopes towards the road, you would need to have your installer put a linear gulley across your threshold, to direct the water away from the road.

Company 1...Â£4000...just had a quick look, didn't give specs of what they would do, didn't measure up and was gone in 5 minutes.

Company 2...Â£5040...measured the area, asked what I would like done, and offered some suggestions. Showed me lots of pictures and videos of his previous work on his iPad. His specs for the job were good. His company has all its own equipment, from grab loaders (no skip hire)... to diggers, vibrating plates and block cutters. So no extra hire charges involved. His web page shows lots of excellent finished projects and testimonials, and has given me local addresses where i can see his work. Brett approved installer.

Company 3...Â£5198...very much the same as above. Brett approved installer.

Company 4...Â£5680...the same as above, but their spec for the underlying sub base was more impressive...200mm (8") of scalpings as opposed to 100mm (4") from the above. Impressive portfolio Doesn't own the bigger equipment (digger, etc.) Brett approved installer.

Company 5...Â£6350...from the ground workers we use on our building projects at work. I thought I might get 'mates rates', but this lot were way over the top. This company don't own any gear, so have to hire it all in, from skips, to diggers, compactor plates etc. I rather think he didn't want the job, and priced himself out.

At the moment, 4 is the choice...the others are very impressive, but the deeper sub base is winning me over, and that's from someone with 20 years in the industry.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

When you have it done, don't kill too many bugs.


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