# Doxa Sub600t - More Than Just A Poor Mans Sub750t?



## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

It seems JoT and I have become the resident Doxa Dolittles on this forum and most of the rest dont seem to get the Doxa thing... I know a few others have dabbled but the murky world of Doxa's self perpetuating limited editions seems to mean most people get too confused to sort out which one they actually want and give up...







I dont propose to make it too easy for you newbies to 'get' the Doxa thing, but thought you might like to know a bit about some of them and also give me chance to introduce you to my latest one.... a Doxa Sub600T Sharkhunter. I dont also propose to write a book here... Dr Peter Miller has already done that and it will hopefully be availble soon for anyone who really wants to get to know the whole Doxa range from the 60s to now.

Doxa is a old company name and its roots go back to 1889, but the name is now in use by a new company - no bad thing but worth knowing I guess. The original dive watches held patents that were shared with Rolex for the HRV (Rolex use it in their SD) and had an orange dial (its easier to see underwater). These watches were made famous in Clive Cusslers books and worn by his main character - Dirk Pitt. FWIW the modern film Sahara is based on one of these books... and we get gratuitious Doxa shots in it...









Doxa make dress and divers watches but im only talking Divers here. Doxa reissued their old divers range with the Sub300T with and Orange dial and also a black dial. The orange dial is called a 'Professional' and the black dial is called a 'Sharkhunter' - fwiw the original 300 sharkhunter appeared in film on Robert Redfords wrist in 3 days of the condor.

So... Doxa reissued the Sub300T which was their most famous model. Although not much of it looked like the older model - mostly due to cost AFAIK. These were very limited in production and are worth a fair bit... especially the Sharkhunter model which is very rare indeed (In think onely 100 were made).

They then issued the Sub250T which used a case shared with Zeno and NOS original Doxa movts. These were in an edition of something like 500 and were cheap (less than half the price of a 300 or 600) and are now starting to appreciate as they were the cheapest in the range and thus the most attainable. AFAIK this was only availble in Sharkhunter form, leaving Zeno open to make their unlimited orange dial version.

Next up Doxa made the Sub600T which finally had the right hands, dial and case. It was in an edition of 3000 in Profesional and 3000 in Sharkhunter Clive Cussler edtions all with the ETA 2824 movt. Also they made a Divingstar edition which had a yellow dial. These are much more limited and hence rarer.

When all the 600s were almost gone Doxa made a new Sub750 Carribean which had a bluey purple dial in the new 750 case size. They then introduced the Professional in Clive Cussler and Dirk Pitt (Sahara) editions, the sharkhunter and also mode a low volume of Divingstars. They now also offer a silver dial and PVD cased version with a black dial.

During the 750s run Doxa brought out the Sub600T-Graph which is a Chronograph based on the new ETA chorno movt and the same case size as the 750, but deeper. Its a 600 tho as its only good for diving to 600meters...























With the advent of the Doxa Sub750T Doxa moved on the Sub range to a larger watch size and a better bracelet (same but with SELs). The watch gained a higher bezel but lost its domed crystal. People seemed to upgrade in droves, or more likely they bought the 750 and then didnt want to go back to wearing a smaller Doxa... ooops.







The market got a bit flooded and the 600s came down in price. It seems to have become stable and the 2nd owners are tending to hang onto theirs it seems, perhaps becuase there is a thought that large watches have now peaked?!

So what does this mean? Well it means the 600 is a bit of a bargain really imho. Its actually not that much smaller than the 750 (its the same as a Rolex Sub or clone) and has almost all the same features including the same movt as the 750. It was the first of the re-issues to have the correct hands, dial and case and a faithful version of the BOR bracelet and is a very wearable watch. For these reasons I think its a better watch than the older 250 and maybe also better than the 300s and is now at a good price point.

Hope you like the pics of my 'new' 600 below:







(note Errors and Omissions Excepted - feel free to add your improvements to my narritve below...)


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Cheers Jon, very interesting read









I would love to have 'go' on one of these...


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Cheers Jason, I forgot to mention the dive table bezel is also a Patent. you can use it to work out how long you can stay down at depth... sadly its no real use these days as its in feet and Paddy etc all use meters... interestingly the 250 and the Zeno have a meters bezel.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

JonW said:


> Cheers Jason, I forgot to mention the dive table bezel is also a Patent. you can use it to work out how long you can stay down at depth... sadly its no real use these days as its in feet and Paddy etc all use meters... interestingly the 250 and the Zeno have a meters bezel.


 I dont know Jon, in the USA its all feet while diving still, there are 2 versions of Citizens Aqualand for USA and Europe for this reason..


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

jasonm said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > Cheers Jason, I forgot to mention the dive table bezel is also a Patent. you can use it to work out how long you can stay down at depth... sadly its no real use these days as its in feet and Paddy etc all use meters... interestingly the 250 and the Zeno have a meters bezel.
> ...


Ahhh makes sense then... The USA is Doxas biggest market by far.


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## Marky (Sep 29, 2005)

Thanks Jon that's an interesting read. I heard some talk of 'Clive Cussler' on a thread awhile ago and was completely lost as to what was being said.

Done a quick google and found this link to some piccy's of the Doxa models. I'll have a closer look later.

Its on Pete Millers Doxa site....


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Thanks Marky, I should have added link to Dr Peter Miller's site... it has far more detailed info than I wrote and would be the next step if you wanted to know more about Doxas and which one you actually wanted to buy.


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## Marky (Sep 29, 2005)

What happened to my link?


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

The route guidance system we have at work has multi language facility.

In any of the euro languages it's all metres and kilometres

In English UK it's yards and miles

but in American it's feet and miles

It seems so weird to here make a left after 600 feet rather than turn left after 200 yards.

getting back to the watches I love the doxa's esp the hands isn't there one that has an orange minutes hand?

The size has always put me off though aren't they all huge? Plus I don't think I'd ever be able to afford one and if I could I'd want a super O 1st.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Marky said:


> What happened to my link?


I suspect one of the mods felt it was commercial...


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

It wasn't me







Must have been "Jazzy"


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Sorry Marky, there were 2 links in there for sales sites....









Petes site is a great one with great photos, people can find it easily enough ......


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

pg tips said:


> getting back to the watches I love the doxa's esp the hands isn't there one that has an orange minutes hand?
> 
> The size has always put me off though aren't they all huge? Plus I don't think I'd ever be able to afford one and if I could I'd want a super O 1st.


yes the 750 Sharkhunters switched to a orange minute hand part way thru production.

no the 250 is smaller than the 600 which is Rolex Sub sized. the 750 is huge, of course!


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

JonW said:


> no the 250 is smaller than the 600 which is Rolex Sub sized. the 750 is huge, of course!


Oh boy now I'm gonna start looking at 250's longingly, I was happy when I thought they were all too big for me


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

jasonm said:


> Sorry Marky, there were 2 links in there for sales sites....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough.

If you want to know more then google 'Doxa review' and i think you will get Dr Millers site pretty easily.

hope thats ok Jason.











pg tips said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > no the 250 is smaller than the 600 which is Rolex Sub sized. the 750 is huge, of course!
> ...


The 250 has slightly different hands tho....


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Fine mate









So its the 750 for me then, me of thick neck to wrist ratio


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)




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## metal_andy (Feb 20, 2004)

I, too get the Doxa thing, they are still relatively uncommon and are certainly

different to alot of what is on offer.

I bought an orange faced 600T Professional in Feb 2005 and love it

to bits, it just makes me smile when I wear it.









In fact I sold my then beloved SMP because it just wasn't getting worn.

As for the size, I have relatively small wrists at 6.5 inches and although

I wear the Doxa slightly loose, it has never felt too big or flapped around too much.

I think the 750T probably would be too big for me.

Cheers

Andy


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

JonW said:


> When all the 600s were almost gone Doxa made a new Sub750 Carribean which had a bluey purple dial in the new 750 case size....
> 
> (note Errors and Omissions Excepted - feel free to add your improvements to my narritve below...)


A little correction. The caribbean (lower cased c is intentional) has more of a midnight blue dial (not quite as dark as navy blue) with no hints of purple. Also, unlike all the other re-issues, the caribbean is the only Doxa to be a new model and not a re-issue. The current owner of the Doxa brand (and the company responsible for reviving it), Jenny, has a long history of making dive watches. They are especially famous for developing a single piece monocoque case during the 1970's which they sold to different manufacturers, to be used on watches rated up to 1,000 m (I think I've seen a 2,000 m rated watch, but don't quote me on this). Jenny's own version of that watch was called the Jenny Caribbean (upper case C intentional). Anyone who used their case was also required to call their watch a Caribbean, which is why you see similar watches with the same name from several different brands.

Jenny's Caribbean, I beleive, came in 600 and 1,000 m ratings and had a blue dial in a lighter shade than today's Doxa caribbean. When Jenny decided to build a new Doxa model and name it in honnor of their classic Caribbean, they sounded their existing customers in the Doxa forum for input regarding the design of the watch. The original prototype was made in a SUB 300 Case and was a bit different from the production model. You can see a picture of it here:

DOXA SUB 300 T CARIBBEAN PROTOTYPE

That watch is a one of a kind and it was sold at auction by Doxa. The production model is on a SUB750T case. It has different style and color hands, smaller dial font, a darker blue dial, and carries the image of a deep diving helmet. Click on the link for a picture:

DOXA SUB750T CARIBBEAN

Only 250 of them were made and for the most part were only made available to existing customers. #187 is currently resting my wrist looking happily back at me.


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## Nalu (Nov 28, 2003)

Good info Isthmus, but Jenny made more than blue dials 










While I'm still not convinved that this model is not a put-together, the dial certainly is real. More to follow on this one.


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

Thanks forexpanding on that. Along thos same lines I guess it's worth noting that Caribbean's from other brands also came in a variety of dials and colors. To the best of my knowledge the principal thing they had in common was the case (not sure about the movement thosugh).


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## Dave ME (May 7, 2005)

Thanks for posting that, Jon. I quite like the look of the Doxas, and prefer the domed crystal and slightly smaller size of the 600T, but the SEL bracelet of the 750T sounds like a better buy. One day I'd like to grab one or the other!


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## TikTok (Mar 26, 2006)

Good read John,Really interesting.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Ta guys. Especially for the Carribean info. Ive not owned one of those so wasnt that clued up on them. Nice watch but thse days its now one of the other dials in the 750 case. Of course when new it was the start of the new 750 case, dial and hands etc. The Military PVD is also a model that doesnt hark back to a previous original Doxa model.

Sorry for not talking about Doxas history more and not bring up Synchron and other parts of the older range but I deliberatly didnt want to get into talking about the older Doxas and was keeping to the reissues as these seem to be the ones most of the forumers would encounter. These are also the ones that we seem to look at and wonder why Doxa is releasing another limited edition watch that 'looks just like the previous limited edition' wheras they do actually tend to be quite different when you move between model ranges - of course the different coloured dials are generally just that.

Within the 5000 750 Professionals there are actually 200 Chronometers and the whole of the 5000 was split between Dirk Pitt (Sahara) and Clive Cussler editions. Doxa are getting wise to the fact that most people get miffed when another limited edition comes out just after they bought a limited edition watch. With that in mind they are saying that they make 3000 in any given year of production for the 750s sa far as i can tell.

FWIW Most of the newer limited edition watches (ie T-Graph) are limited to 250 pieces.... for each year and have a plate on the side saying what year of production they are.

Anyway, the main thing is that all the re-issue Doxas are numbered on the back except the 250 and most come in an alloy tube with the words 'Doxa Sub Professional Series' on the side. This isnt always the case tho; the 250 came in a Doxa dress watch box and some T-Graphs came in a wooden box when Doxa were trying out new packaging.

The 750 also has some interesting variations within the limited editions. The Sharkhunter changed its minute hand to orange (from white) early on in production its said as that was due to historical prize win anniversary and the Professionals either have or are missing a space between the model no, ie. SUB750T or SUB 750T. Are Doxa creating limited editions within the limited editions... maybe...


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Another reason that maybe the 600 should score over the 750 is the lug width... its 20mm. The 750 is 21.5mm... Obviously they just scaled up the whole head dimensions and didnt worry about aftermarket straps then... Heres Neals pic of his old Doxa 600 on Lonestar mesh...










Interestingly Doxa offer their own aftermarket rubber strap for the 600 but not yet for the 750. Also the braclet are interchangable if you reuse the original endlinks. The 600 has a polished inner set of BOR and brushed outside, whereas the 750 and T-Graph use a fully brushed bracelet. 600, TG and older 750s have pins and newer 750s have screw links.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Great post









I have had four Doxas and still own two, a 600T-Graph Pro chronograph and a 750T Caribbean, I sold on my 750T Sharkhunter (one of the rare all white hand versions, I would like to bet Doxa stick with the orange hand and don't revert back to white in 2007) and a 600T Divingstar.

The 600T Divingstar is a watch I regret selling; the smaller 600T is definitely not a poor man's 750T it is a superb watch and in my opinion has a better balance of dimensions (if that makes sense) than the 750T.

The 750T Caribbean is a great colour and tends to look very different in different types of light, I have no idea how to classify the colour .... I just regard it as being dark-blue if that makes any sense. My 750T has the older style bracelet with pins and collars, I haven't got a problem with this configuration as long as you remember the collars I am sure it is as safe, if not safer than screw-in links.

*Doxa 750T Caribbean*










When the Doxa 600T-Graph Pro came out I was immediately taken with it, there is nothing else on the market like the T-Graph. Soon after it's release Doxa announced they were also going to do a black 600T-Graph Sharkhunter so I decided to wait. It was a close call but for me the orange dial Pro got the nod, somewhat irrationally I would like a 600T-Graph Sharkhunter as well I just can't justify it .... can I?

*Doxa 600T-Graph Pro*










Doxa as a company seem to elicit some very strong feelings amongst the watch fraternity; accusations of lack of transparency, poor customer service, patronising marketing and poor communications have all be levelled at Doxa. On the other hand there are a lot of very happy customers who would disagree with these views. What is my view?

Transparency: they aren't very transparent, as far as I am aware there has never been a picture or write-up about their workshop or office or even let it be known who does make the watches. The fact that this hasn't happened has prompted some to allege that Doxa have "something to hide". In my opinion Doxa should be more open.

Customer Service: I had a problem with my Divingstar (a broken crown stem, a common fault on the earlier Doxas, seems to have been solved as not many being reported now), their repairer is RGM in the USA (they host the EOT Dive forum) turnround for me was 3 weeks although I have seen reports of people waiting much longer. It is also a bit of a hassle living in the EU and having to square the Customs and Revenue when it comes back .... make sure you have the correct paper trail! An EU based official repairer would be a good idea I think. The warranty on the watch is only transferable if the seller informs Doxa that the watch has been sold to Joe Bloggs, if this doesn't happen the Joe Bloggs may find himself without cover.

Communications: I really threw my toys out the pram with Doxa about communications when buying the Caribbean; however on investigation it turned out that AOL was blocking all e-mails from Doxa's system (this was pieced together after numerous complaints from AOL users), unfortunately there was no indication that this was happening. This may still be a problem as when I exchanged e-mails when buying the T-Graph I didn't receive their replies; I switched to G-Mail and have had no problem since.

Marketing: Peoples views on marketing often vary widely, however there is a common thread even amongst some "Doxaholics" that the marketing spiel is patronising. Patronising to a WIS? yes without a doubt in my opinion, and it does damage their reputation amongst the serious watch enthusiast community. Does it work on less knowledgeable customers? Probably, but how many WIS customers are they losing? A recent example of an "own-goal" was their recent response to accusations about their military specification claims for the new and very cool, black PVD Sharkhunter. It pissed off so many people it can only have done them damage in my opinion.

My final comments?

The watches are superb, they had some teething problems but even Breitling and Omega aren't free from this. The problem with the crown stem seems to have been sorted out, perhaps there was a bad batch, who knows? The customer service for me has been no problem and many other people have reported good service, it seems to have got better although there is still room to improve (reference a very angry man on WUS!) Transparency needs to improve in my opinion and the marketing is not my thing at all, best not to read it









Doxa have to be congratulated for the 600T, 750T and 600T-Graph the are significant additions to the watch world, overall things seem to be getting better despite the occasional own-goal, personally I would do business with them again despite some of the issues outlined above.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

John, Cor what a lot of great info, Cheers for that.

Interesting on the RGM servicing issue... My TGraph has gone back to Switzerland to be looked at as one of the chronograph subdials isnt working but their comms so far has been fine.







I have no hassle with a fault so long as its fixed without issue and with good comms. We'll see.









Like John Says, these are good watches and Doxa seems to be an interesting company with their own forum with direct access to the marketing dept, for all the good and bad that that means.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

JonW said:


> John, Cor what a lot of great info, Cheers for that.
> 
> Interesting on the RGM servicing issue... My TGraph has gone back to Switzerland to be looked at as one of the chronograph subdials isnt working but their comms so far has been fine.
> 
> ...


Jon that's interesting that it has gone to Switzerland rather than RGM, pehaps they now have something sorted out, unless of course they thought I lived in the USA


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Surely with the SBS you just 'appear' on any continent depending on your insertion to plan....









You could have delivered it, without them even knowing youd been there....


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

JonW said:


> Surely with the SBS you just 'appear' on any continent depending on your insertion to plan....
> 
> 
> 
> ...










I didn't realise I had been transferred from the SEALS







..... I wish







I don't think they employ middle aged farts with bad backs


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

I thought he was a SEAL? Perhaps he is a 'Ubercommando' taking the best bits from the SBS,Spetznaz,SEALs, Mossad etc....










Maybe thats where he was 'going', he was off to solve the problem once and for all, Stan got there first I think....


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Ooops I meant SEALs! sorry John...
















Should we be scared of Stan as well... blimey this should be a Milwatch forum... knives, guns n all...









Anyway Jason, John and I have now written all this about Doxa just so that you would buy one... so now youve done your home work reading our writeups... which one is for you?


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

I stopped reading after finding out the 750T is the biggest and baddest









What else would I need to know?









No, seriously, good read


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

lol. yes but which 750.... Pro (cussler or DirkPitt, or COSC), Sharkhunter, Mil, Searambler, Divingstar or Carribean?


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## Isthmus (Sep 29, 2005)

JoT said:


> ...Patronising to a WIS? yes without a doubt in my opinion, and it does damage their reputation amongst the serious watch enthusiast community. Does it work on less knowledgeable customers? Probably, but how many WIS customers are they losing? A recent example of an "own-goal" was their recent response to accusations about their military specification claims for the new and very cool, black PVD Sharkhunter. It pissed off so many people it can only have done them damage in my opinion.


I hear that. That whole back and forth with their "military" sharkhunter was so silly. On the one hand, Doxa's advertising practically claimed that the watch was a reissue of a military watch they had previously made. When people started pointing out that while doxa had supplied watches to military users in the past, no such watch ever existed, Doxa got defensive. When people specifically asked what specific military specs they used to make the watch, Doxa got evasive, avaoided the question and ultimately deleted the thread.

Don't get me wrong, It's one heck of a gorgeous watch. the problem is that they are streching the truth in their advertising.



JonW said:


> lol. yes but which 750.... Pro (cussler or DirkPitt, or COSC), Sharkhunter, Mil, Searambler, Divingstar or Carribean?


IMHO, it's the caribbean, followed by the classic orange. Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure that there is no SUB750 Divingstar. I think the last version of that watch was a SUB 600 T.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Isthmus said:


> JonW said:
> 
> 
> > lol. yes but which 750.... Pro (cussler or DirkPitt, or COSC), Sharkhunter, Mil, Searambler, Divingstar or Carribean?
> ...


Doxa John told me that a new 750T Divingstar was due next year, I doubt if it will be a true limited edition though like the old 600T.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

JoT said:


> Isthmus said:
> 
> 
> > JonW said:
> ...


Yes thats why I mentioned it... I must have picked up on that on some forum somewhere....


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