# Fake Swiss Watches



## Citiz (Nov 18, 2009)

A guy in my work has a fake Rolex Sub and a fake Omega :furious:

He thinks it is great and brags about it, you can tell they are fake no problem :thumbsdown:

I dont understand why anyone would want to wear a fake, I would rather have a high end Seiko or a Tissot for the price he paid for them 

Rant over, just had to get that out lol!

John.


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## Guz (Apr 7, 2008)

You can have the last laugh when he gets mugged for his fake Rolex :tongue2:

Don't know why anyone would want to buy a real Rolex :butcher: :boxing:


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## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

Guz said:


> You can have the last laugh when he gets mugged for his fake Rolex :tongue2:
> 
> Don't know why anyone would want to buy a real Rolex :butcher: :boxing:


this will be fun :eat:


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## HappyLad (Oct 28, 2009)

seems first question people ask when they see a Rolex is "is it real?"


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## Clum (Feb 14, 2009)

HappyLad said:


> seems first question people ask when they see a Rolex is "is it real?"


Indeed, did that to a friend of mine. Turns out it was real, a 21st birthday present. Lucky git...


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

I have never been asked if my Rolex is real.


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## chris l (Aug 5, 2005)

JohnT said:


> I have never been asked if my Rolex is real.


Is your Rolex real?


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

I was thinking about getting one at one point, but it would not be to brag about it, it would be just for me, a novelty. The thing that stopped me was, not knowing where to get one that was of actual fair quality for a reasonable price.

These days you can pay 400 pounds or more for a fake, and like said above, why not have a top end seiko.

I would say ones best bet is to buy a homage watch. e.g. Orient diver or invicta 8926 which ofcourse look very similar to the rolex sub as they are based upon it. These type watches are not fake, but if what you are looking for is for some person to look at your watch and go - wow a rolex, then that is not going to happen because as soon as you look closely at this watch you will see it says 'Orient' on it.

Ask yourself this - are you trying to act rich because you want others to think you are rich or are you trying to act rich because you actually want to be rich but are not.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

No one has ever asked me if my Alpha Sub is a fake <_<

Mind you no one has asked if my Rolex Sub is a fake either


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## luddite (Dec 11, 2009)

HappyLad said:


> seems first question people ask when they see a Rolex is "is it real?"


That is the reason why I don't currently own a Rolex as it can become very tiresome when people assume that it's a replica.

By the way I have seen very good replicas which have ETA movements in them and even an AD would be fooled.

The people who do buy replicas justify their purchase by saying that as the high end brands are such a rip off they deserve to be ripped off themselves.

Disclaimer, I don't own a replica and I don't subscribe to that philosophy.


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

Fake or Replica = :bull*******:

I have rarely been asked if my Sub is real.

But if someone does ask, that I don't know my stock answers are

Either "no, it's fake" to which you get complimented on the quality of it but they can still tell it's not real :lol:

Or "yes it's real ..... :wink2: :wink2:" to which you get "NAH it's not, you lie"

Funny that, one answer is an outright lie which people believe, the other is the truth which 'they' don't!

To people I do know I don't say anything at all, just look at them. As they know me, they know the answer without a verbal response


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

chris l said:


> JohnT said:
> 
> 
> > I have never been asked if my Rolex is real.
> ...


My real Rolex is a fake and my fake Rolex is real, except the diamonds on both are real :lol: :lol: and I only have one Rolex


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## itsguy (Nov 16, 2009)

To be serious, I think it's five factors:

1 - Watches are so damn desirable, I think we can all agree on that! They are designed to be. Sometimes all reason goes out the window when it comes to a particular model.

2 - They are also so damn expensive (also agreed?! - ok, not all are, but many are and the price only makes them more desirable and unobtainable)

3 - People probably feel little sympathy for companies selling things that are so pricey, or for the people who can afford them, so fakes feel like revenge.

4 - Ignorance - that is to say, they simply don't know they can buy a beautiful vintage watch for the same price as a fake, or else a more honest homage. Knowing that takes a decent watch education, which takes time.

5 - People are obsessed with brand names. Lame, but there it is, that's the modern world.

It's sad, but who hasn't downloaded music at some time or other? It's not that different. Before i got into watches I never had much of an opinion on the issue, I certainly didn't feel sorry for Rolex or their owners. I guess only people with genuine watches do.

As for Rolex, I'm afraid I grew up firmly believing they were vulgar without ever having seen one, a perception corrected when I first saw a 60s non-date oyster and realised what all the fuss was about. The world is divided into two groups - those who think that Rolex's are ostentatious status symbols, and those that own them and know better!


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## Livius de Balzac (Oct 6, 2006)

Kurt Klaus shows what you can do with fake watches:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Q19xrj3OI68


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

itsguy said:


> The world is divided into two groups - those who think that Rolex's are ostentatious status symbols, and those that own them and know better!


There is a third (admitedly very small) group who own & enjoy them but still think they are overpriced status symbols :wink2:


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

Livius de Balzac said:


> Kurt Klaus shows what you can do with fake watches:
> 
> http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Q19xrj3OI68


Good one Livius!


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## kc104 (May 1, 2009)

As close as I was to gettting a fake, for reasons of just enjoying it myself, not to try and show off to people there is one thing that would stop me (or atleast stop me from wearing it outside the house) which would be that it was fake and if someone asked me, then both answers do not agree with me -

yes it is fake or No it is not and lying about it. Of course if you have the real thing and someone asks you if it is real - **** em whether they believe you or not, you know it is real.

Having said all that - I also share the opinion that some watches are so over priced and it really gets my nipples in a twist. If I had 2000 around 5 years ago I could have purchased a nice rolex - now its around double for the same watch poooooooo


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## itsguy (Nov 16, 2009)

kc104 said:


> Having said all that - I also share the opinion that some watches are so over priced and it really gets my nipples in a twist. If I had 2000 around 5 years ago I could have purchased a nice rolex - now its around double for the same watch poooooooo


You can purchase a nice Rolex now for a lot less than that... a vintage one - which IMHO is a lot nicer than a new one anyway. If I was forking out that much for something new it would be something else.


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

Once you've experienced the real thing, you would be hard pressed to go out an buy a fake. On the other hand, I have more respect for an individual who buys a fake and doesn't hide it than a fake Forum member who pretends to have the real thing.


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

itsguy said:


> To be serious, I think it's five factors:
> 
> 1 - Watches are so damn desirable, I think we can all agree on that! They are designed to be. Sometimes all reason goes out the window when it comes to a particular model.
> 
> ...


I'd just like to add to point 4

It is getting far easier to get a homage watch these days just take a look in the Argos catalogue, I see Breitling Navitimers, Rolex date-justs, Audemars Piguet Royal Oaks, albeit from other manufacturers.

Although I would guess many customers wouldn't recognize the similarities. In the end the Swiss watch houses lose out as it cheapens their brands. But at least someone somewhere gets paid legitimately.

Fakes are the same as music / movie downloads, Illegal and criminals get your cash.


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

> Fakes are the same as music / movie downloads, Illegal and criminals get your cash.


That's a good point Bobby. However, there is no will to prosecute.Hence, it's free for all. The BIG WARNINGS at the beginning of a DVD are pure BS. Five years in prison and $250000 fine? Give me a break. We can't even get that for a major drug deal or manslaughter.I can't count how many times we came across big stash of counterfeit goods and contacted the victim companies only to be told that they were not interested in prosecuting or be involved in a court case. We were even told by the famous "East Coast Choppers" ( Paul Sr. and Paul Jr.) that they didn't care about the fake merchandise with their name on it. It was free advertising...!So there you go... Lots of whining and nothing else.


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## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

BlueKnight said:


> > Fakes are the same as music / movie downloads, Illegal and criminals get your cash.
> 
> 
> That's a good point Bobby. However, there is no will to prosecute.Hence, it's free for all. The BIG WARNINGS at the beginning of a DVD are pure BS. Five years in prison and $250000 fine? Give me a break. We can't even get that for a major drug deal or manslaughter.I can't count how many times we came across big stash of counterfeit goods and contacted the victim companies only to be told that they were not interested in prosecuting or be involved in a court case. We were even told by the famous "East Coast Choppers" ( Paul Sr. and Paul Jr.) that they didn't care about the fake merchandise with their name on it. It was free advertising...!So there you go... Lots of whining and nothing else.


I agree there 100% a quick google search will bring you up half a dozen sites selling fakes right here in the UK so they dont seam to be bothered at all, I lived in Hong Kong for a while and they reckon in asia 98% of all windows and office are pirate amd they cant stop it, Its all for show if they wanted to do something about it they would have to invest billions and devote 1000s of hours of court time for very little returns so they cant be botthered its too much effort for to little reward.


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## luddite (Dec 11, 2009)

itsguy said:


> The world is divided into two groups - those who think that Rolex's are ostentatious status symbols, and those that own them and know better!


And a third group who said "What's a Rolex?"


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

ludditeinorbit said:


> itsguy said:
> 
> 
> > The world is divided into two groups - those who think that Rolex's are ostentatious status symbols, and those that own them and know better!
> ...


That would be the fourth group...



mach 0.0013137 said:


> itsguy said:
> 
> 
> > The world is divided into two groups - those who think that Rolex's are ostentatious status symbols, and those that own them and know better!
> ...


:lol:


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## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

and the other 99% of the population who just dont like them :yahoo: :rofl2: :rofl2:


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

sonyman said:


> and the other 99% of the population who just dont like them :yahoo: :rofl2: :rofl2:


:swoon:

They ought to be flogged for such heresy!!!


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

I've seen umpteen threads like this in the past and the same arguments crop up 'for' and 'against' every time (usually 'against' :thumbsup: ).

Anyway, I'll add my 2p worth (again).

The way I see it, people only buy a fake for one reason (and I know some people convince themselves otherwise, but deep down there's only one reason!) and that's because they want a brand name that they either can't afford or don't want to pay for!

If you simply liked the look of something you'd buy one of the various 'homages' avialable. That way you are making the statement that you like the design but for whatever reason can't/won't pay for the brand names.

As for the 'overpriced' argument, that don't wash either! It's a simple case of supply and demand. These brands can charge these prices as they have a customer base that are prepared to pay the asking price, the brand aquires a certain kudos/status and demand increases, prices go up and the circle continues.

The along come the fakes and the homages. Homages cash in on those that want the look but not the name/brand and fakes cash in on those that want the name/image but can't pay for it! If Rolex and Breitling retailled between Â£50 and Â£200 do you think there'd be fakes (please no one use the 'fake alpha' argument).

There's a long list of watches I really like and can't afford. I could easily get fakes of most or all of them for not much money, but I wouldn't. If I like a particular style I'll get a similar 'homage'!

People who buy fakes are fakes themselves, you know who you are and if you search deep down inside (although you wouldn't admit it) the only reason you buy a fake is because you want something you can't afford!


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Kurt Klaus and others need to wake up and smell the coffee! The demo destruction derby is just a press publicity stunt! What was /is destroyed in these demos is but a tiny fraction of the counterfeit stuff out there, and since it's mostly already been bought and paid for at ("possibly" a fairly legitimate) wholesale level, *IF*, and IMHO it's a fairly big IF, money has been channelled back into organised crime, that happened a long ways back. :yes:

Similarly, the child sweat shop thing is real, but again, if you have to choose between literally starving or earning tuppence a day, what else do you do? Irrespective of how bad things are here (in the civilised countries) there's usually some kind of buffer from family, friends or welfare of some kind. We just do NOT have folks/kids whose ONLY income to prevent total starvation is what they can earn in a sweat shop doing whatever work they can get and suffering as a result.









Remember, this is not about "I'm starving, there's a MacDonalds" - this is about "I'm starving 'cos I haven't eaten any solid food for a month!"









Profit is the name of the game - sweat shop makes a watch, it's shipped from the far East into Europe by an export/import chain, sold to some kind of wholesaler who in turn sells it on to a retail seller (dusky gent with briefcase even) who sells it to a tourist for a tenner or less - and that's the cheap and nasty end - but there's still a profit in it :yes:

And this gets multiplied up the food chain to hi-end "replicas" - and they're here right or wrong, on the bay and elsewhere, or in a car park near you! The only difference is the profit MARGIN! :yes:

I don't have a problem with replica/fake/homage watches as long as I know they are that, and I have taken them out of circulation, but some are actually reasonable pieces if they were labelled "McGonagall" instead of RolPanBreimega. Everything is relative! :lookaround:

(Incoming Flak expected :sadwalk: )


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

> (Incoming Flak expected)


Don't worry Mel, I'll protect you! :hunter:


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

i got some fakes im not fake far from it infact .i dont have a problem with them i hardly wear them but i wont get on my high horse about them .if you dont like them then dont buy them .

more annoying than fakes is the waste of server space that has been taken up discussing it on here its at least once a month.if you want to read some comments about this subject please do a search first you wont have to look far.


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## itsguy (Nov 16, 2009)

It's a vital global problem way beyond the watch world. Many of my friends are musicians and even the theoretically successful ones are starving because they simply can't get paid for their work any more. Then comes films, tv, games, software... It's depressing as we all lose in the long term when there's less investment in the things we love. This is not just a line trotted out by the industry, I've seen it first hand, and many brilliant people are simply having their livelihoods stolen from them.

If there's any plus side at all, it's that it puts pressure on manufacturers to offer things for a fair and justifiable price - people may choose the real thing if they believe it really is better quality and they are being charged correctly for that. But the fair price of brand association is a less simple issue - the markup for wearing the same watch as James Bond, and the cost of that product placement. That's a harder sell.

In the long term, something really major may shift in our culture and economy as there's very little defence against this, apart from legitimate providers having a better service for a fair price (like iTunes, apart from the price). Perhaps we'll see 'diffusion' ranges from major players, as in the fashion world - the Tudor may have been ahead of it's time!

Either way, the sad thing for fakers is that they are reminded every time they look at their wrists that they DON'T really have what they want, rather than being reminded that they do. It's own punishment, in a way.


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

jaslfc5 said:


> i dont have a problem with them i hardly wear them but i wont get on my high horse about them .if you dont like them then dont buy them .


I think you're missing the point Jason! People who don't like fakes or who are against them don't buy them! People who do buy them only buy them for the name, why else would someone buy one!? Why would someone buy a fake Lacoste polo shirt or a fake Louis Vuitton handbag???

You are right about one thing though.... these topics do crop up far too often!


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## itsguy (Nov 16, 2009)

jaslfc5 said:


> i got some fakes im not fake far from it infact .i dont have a problem with them i hardly wear them but i wont get on my high horse about them .if you dont like them then dont buy them .
> 
> more annoying than fakes is the waste of server space that has been taken up discussing it on here its at least once a month.if you want to read some comments about this subject please do a search first you wont have to look far.


If you dont like them then dont read them . ? :naughty:


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

itsguy said:


> jaslfc5 said:
> 
> 
> > i got some fakes im not fake far from it infact .i dont have a problem with them i hardly wear them but i wont get on my high horse about them .if you dont like them then dont buy them .
> ...


oh ok guy i wont then,sorry.

i bought the uboat fake to see what a 50mm+ watch is like to live with so it was for research.but i really dont see what all the fuss is,its only a matter of time now and this thread will go down the road of hommages and design similarities its always the same.


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

Already been down that road!

Are U boat the only manufacturer who make a 50+mm watch?

Did you subsequently buy the genuine article???


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

hopefully this year for the uboat.


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## itsguy (Nov 16, 2009)

jaslfc5 said:


> oh ok guy i wont then,sorry.
> 
> i bought the uboat fake to see what a 50mm+ watch is like to live with so it was for research.but i really dont see what all the fuss is,its only a matter of time now and this thread will go down the road of hommages and design similarities its always the same.


Yes you're probably right! I don't have the energy to get massively upset about it either, and the 'try before you buy' argument certainly isn't a bad one.

But I still think it's interesting to discuss in spite of the same points coming up a lot, as no one really knows where this is going in the long run in terms of digital rights, global trade, china vs the west... These issues are very live, and also there's often a bit of a gap between what people say and what they do - yourself not included!


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

A fake is a fake.

Don't buy them. As if you do, you are supporting criminals and their activities.

And the world just gets that little bit darker each time


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

bobbymonks said:


> A fake is a fake.
> 
> Don't buy them. As if you do, *you are supporting criminals and their activities*.
> 
> And the world just gets that little bit darker each time


Proof, Bobbymonks, proof! This one gets trotted out all the time, about all sorts of counterfeit items - and when it comes down to it - very few cases come to court or wherever with proof. The biggest "criminal" activity connected with counterfeit goods is the massive amount of profit relative to the initial production costs made by the sellers at all the stages along the supply chain - and this is made by import/export companies, shippers, wholesalers, some if not most of them legitimate registered companies. :yes:

OK, they knowingly deal in counterfeit goods or counterfeit branded items, and that is instrinsically not right (pssst! anyone want to buy a tonne of Ruplak Butter?), but I don't see a Mafia (Russian, Italian or Triad) behind it all









It's purely commercial greed, this talk of it financing third world revolution or similar is (IMO) a load of - - - -, no, it finances some company director's plunge pool, big house and sauna, using the up-front money from the banks to buy stuff and re-sell whatever they want to buy and re-sell.


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

I think it's time we switch gear on the matter and discuss fake Chinese movements. What do you all think? :gossip:


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

BlueKnight said:


> I think it's time we switch gear on the matter and discuss fake Chinese movements. What do you all think? :gossip:


fake movt's???? never!!!!!!

saying that, ive got a couple of "clone" ETA movt's and they work just fine


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

mel said:


> bobbymonks said:
> 
> 
> > A fake is a fake.
> ...


No Proof needed.

I don't agree with the commercial greed / profit margin part of your statement as legit factories do not produce fake goods to boost the figures now do they!

Anyone manufacturing fake goods = criminal

Anyone selling a fake is doing so illegally = criminal

Anyone knowingly or not buying a fake = criminal (ignorance or 'good faith' is no longer a legal defense)

Anyone passing off goods as genuine when they are not ........... well they are just sad.

So anyone involved in counterfeit goods on any scale during manufacture, distribution, sale of or purchase of is committing a criminal act.

La Cosa Nostra

were found to be behind the largest production & distribution ring of fake Levi jeans ever uncovered in the US.

low level street sellers were prosecuted & jailed in the late 80's early 90's the 'brains' behind it stayed in Italy, and could not be connected to the ring 100% therefore no trial

Russian Mafia

Soldiers jailed for distribution of fake Vodka so lethal it would blind, even kill on large consumption. Once a again no one important was touched

Triad's

Found to be behind the most prolific counterfeiters of MS software in the world. Same story no solid evidence so no trial.

So please don't try and convince me that buying the odd fake watch or fake whatever is just a bit of a laugh, and a victimless crime, as there is no such thing.

Never mind when it comes to the legitimate companies and individuals who's income is stolen, intellectual property is abused.

Now I agree the legal system does need some 'teeth' when dealing with such crimes. But as a society we also need to do our part.

If there's no market for fakes, the fakes won't be made, a bit ideological i know, but it's simple economics. No demand, no need for supply


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

People who knowingly buy or wear fakes are not watch lovers. They are sad wannabes who never could be because they think it is ok to buy fakes and to buy from crooks in the first place.

That applies to anybody who buys or wears a fake.

Owning a fake in France could see you in jail. Damn' right too.


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

I corroborate and second Bobbymonks' statement.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Just wondering, when people speak of `replicas` do they include the likes of these? :huh:


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

Finally some sensible cases being put forward on behalf of the 'againsts'!

I stand by those statements and reitterate my argument that anyone who buys a fake is a fake themselves.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

BGM said:


> Finally some sensible cases being put forward on behalf of the 'againsts'!
> 
> I stand by those statements and reitterate my argument that* anyone who buys a fake is a fake themselves.*


no....thats wrong


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

mrteatime said:


> BGM said:
> 
> 
> > Finally some sensible cases being put forward on behalf of the 'againsts'!
> ...


I believe we've not yet heard a 'decent' reason for (knowingly) buying/owning one yet......


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

BGM said:


> mrteatime said:
> 
> 
> > BGM said:
> ...


jasons reason for buying a uboat to see if he could live with it is valid........

thing is about this is that it comes up every couple of months.....everyone has there opinions about knock off's.....my opinion is well documented, so i wont go into it here again, and i understand the criminal element about anything dodgy.......however, none of us on here are whiter then white (apart from mac) and of course, none of us have never done anything that might have been a little criminal.........

now, for those who wish to make there opinions known about fakes or what ever are perfectly entitled to say what they like about them, but dont just generalise.....not everyone can afford the luxury of owning a real whatever it is.......beleive me, there are two people on here that have passed off 'swiss' high end watches as real....i know because they told me......these two guys aint fake at all......there well established members of this community......

i would just like to mention that the only one i have is a panny clone......but ive got a sterile dial on that now, so i guess thats ok?

right.....think im off to start a thread about ALL BMW drivers have small penises........i think thats the general opinion of most people......


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

Nonsense: some of them are women.

I'll make it clear. ONLY fakes wear fakes.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

tomshep said:


> *Nonsense: some of them are women.*
> 
> *
> *


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

tomshep said:


> I'll make it clear. ONLY fakes wear fakes.


like i said.....thats your opinion

:thumbsup:


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

I think it's Audi drivers these days..... or people who put 'M' badges on non-M-powered BMWs....

Anyway, same old arguments cropping up agin..... just to counter, then I'll be quiet :hypocrite:

- If you can't afford it then don't buy it. If I'm walking round in a fake lacoste polo shirt or similar then I'm making a statement that I like lacoste. You can't argue that it's just 'cause I like the colour.

- As for the research argument, again, nonsense! Using the lacoste polo shirt analogy again, if I'm considering buying a small lacoste polo shirt because I want to mince around like one of those soft southern poofters but want to try out the 'look' first, I can go to Tesco or similar and buy one of their cheapo-nasty polo shirts (other cheapo-nasty brands are available!).

- I made the statement that people who buy fakes are fake themeselves, you counter with the argument that two 'established' members on here have passed off fake watches as genuine but are definatley not fake people..... great argument. "Hi, do you like my Rolex? It's real!" That's leading people to believe that a fake product is a genuine product and that is not the act of an honest or genuine person, in my opinion of course.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get some abuse from the 'boys club' over this but hey, I'm entitled to my opinion so don't tell me I'm wrong when your not prepared to get called out yourself...

Cheers!


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

BGM said:


> I think it's Audi drivers these days..... or people who put 'M' badges on non-M-powered BMWs....
> 
> Anyway, same old arguments cropping up agin..... just to counter, then I'll be quiet :hypocrite:
> 
> ...


get called out yourself? sorry dont understand that.....anyway.......its a hornets nest aint it? people have opinions, and yep, you could well be right about the whole fake being fake and all that....to be honest, i couldn't give a toss either way......i wouldn't pay that sort of money ever on a watch, but thats me. the thought of going into an ad and hading over 3-5k for a watch is something i couldn't do.........top end swiss just dont seem to do it for me......

and as for soft southern poofters............thats all in my past 

and couldn't tell you why the guys wanted to pass them off as real........but, thats for them to come out and say.......

.........and now that you mention audi drivers...............


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

Alright Shawn, we'll leave it there shall we, don't want handbags over this, like you say, it's not worth it!

Quite right, everyone has an opinion and is entitled to it. What irritates me is when people resort to getting personal (whether it be directly or trying to be 'clever') in an attempt to settle an argument. Unfortunately it seems to happen a little to often on here.....

Don't get me wrong, I'm up for a little banter here and there and most stuff is definately tongue in cheek! However, occaisionally people seem to post things inciteful and it's almost as though they don't expect a response. Again, unfortunately more often that not it seems to be 'established' members who've been here for a long time. It's a bit sad really. I've been here for a year and it's something I noticed very early on, some 'newbie' makes a comment, an establish member says something provocative and the person reacts. Next thing the 'established' members, or 'boys club' I refer to, all get in on the act. Sometimes, only sometimes, this makes this place an uncomfortable place to be.

Maybe it's just me, but there, I've said it! In general I love it here (so please no "If you don't like it you know where to go!" comments) and find it a nice place to visit and gives me something to do on a dark winter's eve! But the 'cok of the playground' attitude held by SOME needs to go. Again, I'm up for a bit of banter and will give as good as I get, but I think people need to think twice before trying to make something personal just because they've run out of decent arguments in a debate situation.

As for the 'established' members looking to pass off fakes, wasn't after a 'name and shame'.

Ok, rant over :starwars:


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## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

Weather its right wrong or for those who dont care either way, It always has gone on, It always will go on and there will never ever be a way to stop it casue there will always be someone that wants to have something they cant afford, Even down to 1.1 escorts sticking RS Cosworth badges on them.

The thing is not to get worked up about and just get on with your lives this argumnet will reappear every month as new people join and ask the same questions, This that want to stick to fakes fine but I would rather have the real deal or go without. :thumbsup:


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## itsguy (Nov 16, 2009)

Bottom line - it's stealing, at least admit that.


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## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

itsguy said:


> Bottom line - it's stealing, at least admit that.


every manufacturer steals thats business, i read a long time ago that Toyota before they made Lexus bought a Merc,BMW,Rolls Royce, Bentley etc etc and took them all apart copied all the best bits from all of them and then released Lexus, Thats stealing so they all do it, Weather its right or wrong is all down to personal perception period.

I think hommage watches are stealing yet the law dosent so thats ok then.

Some do some don't I am in the don't anymore camp but I am also in have done in the past so I cannot in all honesty have a go at others that do. At the end of the day its all down to personal choice and I don't think anyone has the right to look down on those thats do cause I don't believe anyone never ever commits a crime even if thats dropping litter or going 10mph over the speed limit or overstaying in a car park, we all have broke the law in someway at some time and unless you are without any sin ever don't throw stones.


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## BlueKnight (Oct 29, 2009)

Ooh my gawd...! I ride a BMW. And my penis is... ( Note to moderators: can I post a picture?)


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

Some good points Phil.

However I don't think you are in breach of common law if you overstay in a car park









As for the whole 'stealing' debate, I have different views on that one. The counterfeiters are the thieves, true, those that buy from them are perpetuating the problem...

As for the car thing, it's called 'reverse engineering' and is VERY common practice. That's not stealing unless you are blatently copying patented concepts or infringing on IP. There has to be an element of trial and improvement, it's evolutionary. That's why some manufacturers buy others, pillage their IP and then sell the brand on.

Plain old 'counterfeitting' is plain old 'counterfeitting', trading on someone else's name, brand and reputation to make a quick buck.....


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Just wondering, when people speak of `replicas` do they include the likes of these? :huh:


I`m still waiting for an answer :wink2:


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

They are blatent replicas, copies, homages whatever.....

The fact that they don't carry the names 'Rolex' and 'Breitling' means that they are not fakes.

If you're going to hit us with the fact that they are genuine with PS names on them, or fakes with PS names on them then that's just daft.


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## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

BGM said:


> Some good points Phil.
> 
> However I don't think you are in breach of common law if you overstay in a car park
> 
> ...


I agree but the rotary Mach pictured is a identical design to the Navitimer same dial lay out same size etc etc that is a blatant copy no matter what name is on the front so I class that as stealing plain and simple.

The reverse engineering argument is a legitimate thing OK but its still copying what another manufacturer is doing to it may be legal but its a bit naughty but I suppose they are all doing it.

As for the supporting crime argument that is a bit of a red herring in my book as record company's and the like have got rich from ripping the public off for decades when times were good. I mean charging Â£15 for a cd in the UK but only $10 in the US is wrong and don't give me any of the bigger market rubbish that they spout its bull. The fact was they had a captive market and could rip people off and people could do very little about it, A mate of mine was a DJ like me in Blackpool and used to buy lps and record them on to cassette tapes and sell them to holiday makers on the seafront in Blackpool in the summer, He was not involved in any crime and was doing it to pay for a holiday but when the police caught him he got taken to court and prosecuted and fined Â£5000 to make an example of him, Â£5k fine and this in the 80s they said he was involved in organized crime what a load of bull it was just the big powerful record company's once again using their power against the little guys.

Whilst I acknowledge there is some element of counterfeit sales organized by criminals I don't think its a massive percentage so thats argument is a bit bogus really.


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

I think the topic is getting a little side-tracked :hypocrite:

The original question posed is why would someone buy a fake. Nothing to do with the legality of making or owning one....

For reference, my answer was basically because they are a fake themselves


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## brgkster (Jul 14, 2009)

i pulled 3 fakes from the bay, why because i wanted to have a good look at them as i will never be able to handle the real deal, i can now say so that is almost what they are like, i have never worn then nor never will, they are in a drawer and will never be worn, but i am now satisfied.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

BGM said:


> Alright Shawn, we'll leave it there shall we, don't want handbags over this, like you say, it's not worth it!


:thumbsup:


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## itsguy (Nov 16, 2009)

sonyman said:


> itsguy said:
> 
> 
> > Bottom line - it's stealing, at least admit that.
> ...


Quite true - I should point out that I didn't mean to be judgemental, just to state a fact. I've 'borrowed' some software in the past, and only when I started to make actual money using it did I get round to paying for it, several years later. Not quite the right way round but I don't feel too bad about that as it came good in the end.  I'm not going to throw the first stone, very few of us can claim not to have downloaded a song, or maybe over-claimed an expense or something. Most people bend the rules and tell themselves it's merely cheeky, and that crimes are victimless when the victim is far away, or not that sympathetic a character. I wonder who would call the bank to tell them they'd made a small mistake in your favour - show of hands?

I agree that copying designs is part of the way of things, and that's how the world goes round - the good designs survive, and are copied, and improved on. Design is a dialogue. This is how music genres form, it's not always a bad thing. If your work isn't being copied, it's probably not much good. The stealing only becomes apparent when you put yourself in the shoes of the brands. You've done something good, people want it, you build up a recognised label, work on it your whole life, then people borrow not just your idea, but your logo, your exact design, they don't add anything or try to improve it, they simply steal your work and dilute your brand identity. You'd be quite annoyed I think, and rightly. It's just a bit lame - competing to manufacture something more cheaply is one thing, but then pretending it's your own higher quality product, I can't think anyone is going to defend it morally, not if you imagine it was happening to you personally rather than some faceless corporation. Few people will feel massive sympathy for poor old luxury brands and their rich customers, but it's not a moral grey area, it is simply wrong, even if you don't think it's the worst kind of wrong. Maybe if you were an anti-capitalist and fully intended to harm the Swiss watch industry and make fun of it's customers for being materialistic - then you might think it was right. But you'd probably be fooling yourself...

Not worth getting worked up about, but worth admitting what it really is I think.

Ok - more than enough! Off to look at some more pictures of things I can't afford....


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

The point I was trying to make is that if examples like the Rotary bothered Rolex & Breitling so much, they would no doubt do something about it. To me a `fake` is something that is identical to & uses the logo of another manufacturer, personally I wouldn`t touch one with a shitty stick. However examples like the Rotary, Alpha & various others which are obvious copies/homages(or whatever) are not fakes & cater for those who appreciate the designs of the likes of Rolex, Breitling etc but cannot afford or are willing to pay their prices.


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

mach, bang on! My views exactly!

itsaguy, very good well thought out argument to. I think you summed things up well there.


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## carryondentist (Aug 5, 2009)

Ok... confession time for me. I have a properly FAKE watch but I like it..

The reason I bought it is that my ultimate grail watch is a 6263 Daytona.. and it is has got to be at the pinnacle of desirability for Rolex sports watches. Also it fits my small wrists a lot better than a modern one. At the time when I bought the replica they were Â£9k, now they are Â£35k plus. There is no way in the world I am going to pay that for a watch (unless maybe I win the lottery.)

Looking at it objectively it is quite a nice watch.. decent chronograph movement with a poljot 3133, attractive dial with decent lume, case well made etc.. Now I own genuine Rolex watches (and other high end brands), and yes they are better made and more accurate - but they are a pain in the ass to maintain with access to vintage parts.

I don't really know what my point is here.. but I am happy enough to have it in my collection and I know that if it had poljot or no name on the dial it would be less desirable to me and I would have unloaded it long ago.

Here is the evil watch on question.. Open for comments / criticism !


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

carryondentist said:


> Ok... confession time for me. I have a properly FAKE watch but I like it..
> 
> The reason I bought it is that my ultimate grail watch is a 6263 Daytona.. and it is has got to be at the pinnacle of desirability for Rolex sports watches. Also it fits my small wrists a lot better than a modern one. At the time when I bought the replica they were Â£9k, now they are Â£35k plus. There is no way in the world I am going to pay that for a watch (unless maybe I win the lottery.)
> 
> ...


Do people ever ask you about it?

If so, what do you tell them?


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## Citiz (Nov 18, 2009)

Wow I didnt want to get everyone arguing over this, but it is good to see everyone's opinion on it.

As for me, I wouldnt buy a fake, I dont agree with it.

My apologies if this topic has been brought up several times.

John


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

John, if you hadn't brought it up, someone else would - happens all the time :yes:

Must take down that print of the Mona Lisa I have in case the Mafia made a profit from it! - and then there's the Vettriano print of the Dancers on the Beach, and the photocopies of the dance scripts from my mate John, as well as the Paredes "Kickers" from Spain, not to mention the HK Rolly, and the unlocked Orange phone - - - :yes:

Funnily enough, I don't have any cracked or illegal software


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## Llanhmod (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm following the arguments with interest, being a Newbie. Given that it was a recent "will-I-won't-I?" dillema over buying a fake (Rolex, of course) that has eventually led me here I'd like to share the fairly simplistic reason I didn't - but instead started to do some proper research which is proving to be interesting, informative and a whole lot of fun. For me: buy a fake, you're a Wannabe - buy the real thing, you already Are! If that makes sense?

Now, at the same time (striding down from the moral high-ground) and for example, my current car is a 3yo diesel X-Type Jag. Which - Jaguar having been in Ford's ownership at the time - is based around a Ford Mondeo (not a bad car in it's own right as it happens). Mondeo engine, various other parts etc! So, the whole fake-thing? It seems complex and multi-faceted, but I reckon (having read this thread) that as long as you're going into it with your eyes open, for your own reasons and armed with all the relevant information, it's a matter of personal choice - right?


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## carryondentist (Aug 5, 2009)

BGM said:


> Do people ever ask you about it?
> 
> If so, what do you tell them?


I've never lied and said it is real... I just tell them that a real one is worth more than both of my cars (although will continue to rise rather than loose money!) Even if I had a real one - I would not risk wearing it through risk of theft or damage.


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## vikingaccountant (Dec 9, 2009)

My take on this subject is that legitimate businessmen bend the law as a matter of course and ruthlessness is a prerequisite.

Therefore if replica manufacturers see a way to exploit a market that exists due to the excessive profiteering by others then they, and their customers, are only filling a need.

Usual disclaimer, I have never bought or encouraged others to buy a replica.


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

People keep on missing the basic point!

Fake = Something that is intended to be passed off as the real thing, be it watches, clothes, vodka etc

Replica, copy homage = As long as it doesn't carry the original brand name (as with mach's examples) or infringe on patents and/or IP are perfectly legit. By buying one you appreciate/want the look but can't/won't pay the premium.

The car analogies people keep bringing up are not valid here! To put the car examples back in a watch context; If Ford own Jaguar and they make a car that is basically a mondeo underneath but carries the Jag badges, this is perfectly Ok. It's just like Rolex and Tudor, Omega and Longines or Oris etc. It's simple buisness, manufacturers extending their portfolios and expanding their brands.

As for Art; no one is going to believe that a Vetriano print on your wall is the reall thing, you are not trying to pass it off as such as there is only one of said painting in the world (and the mafia know exactly where it is!). Bringing this back to watches, I would be ok with someone who had a copy of a one-off watch that there was absolutely no way on earth that you could pass it off as the real thing. If you wanted it simply because of its beauty and kept it at home to appreciate it yourself that would be kind of ok. It's the same with replicas of classic cars that are no longer made and there are only one or two in of the original left in the world.

Back to the original question, why would someone buy and/or wear a fake ROLEX submariner or OMEGA Planet Ocean etc!? I still don't think anyone has provided an entirely valid reason. These are by no means rare or one-off watches and although VERY expensive are not entirely out of reach to most if they wanted one badly enough. If they like the design but don't care for the name companies like Alpha, Rotary and a hundered others are there to offer you something VERY similar....

Please no more mentions of illegal software, criminal gangs and pirate music.....


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## micheal123 (Jan 12, 2010)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> itsguy said:
> 
> 
> > The world is divided into two groups - those who think that Rolex's are ostentatious status symbols, and those that own them and know better!
> ...


 :to_become_senile:

i just do not understand why some people care so much about whether the swiss watch is real. i will not spend so large sum of money to get a real swiss watch, it is no need. one of my colleague travelled outside, when she came back, she shown me a real swiss watch, in fact, i am not sure whether her watch is real or not, but it price is real extremely expensive, i think she is crazy.


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## itsguy (Nov 16, 2009)

micheal123 said:


> :to_become_senile:
> 
> i just do not understand why some people care so much about whether the swiss watch is real. i will not spend so large sum of money to get a real swiss watch, it is no need. one of my colleague travelled outside, when she came back, she shown me a real swiss watch, in fact, i am not sure whether her watch is real or not, but it price is real extremely expensive, i think she is crazy.


Well.....If the original question was 'why do people wear fakes', then I guess we have a winner. :wallbash:


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## carryondentist (Aug 5, 2009)

BGM said:


> The car analogies people keep bringing up are not valid here!
> 
> It's the same with replicas of classic cars that are no longer made and there are only one or two in of the original left in the world.


Sorry BGM.. I don't want to perpetuate the argument too much more but would like to make one point about replica cars.

I have seriously considered buying a replica Lancia Stratos or Ferrari 246, not because they are cheaper than a genuine car - but they are more realistic ownership propositions. The originals are super rare - have no stock of parts and would disintegrate if used regularly. People only buy them to look at and as an investment - which is a bit sad really. A replica / 'badged fake' appears to give the best of both worlds as they give you the look (Hawk now supply panels to Lancia for stratos owners) but a more reliable drive-train and maintenance free ownership. If made with sufficient care and quality parts then it can be quite charismatic and outperform their vintage counterparts. Having said this, there is no way in the world that I would buy a replica 'modern' ferrari.

So my question is can this analogy be extrapolated into the watch world - where a replica of an older watch is justifiable but a copy of a current model is not. Lets face it, if it was made by the original manufacturer it would merely be badged a re-edition???










P.S. I am still trying to justify owning that Daytona to myself. lol.


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

It's 'Q' plated, so technically people would know it's not genuine.

I do take that point, it was something I was kind of getting at myself. Not 100% sure if it translates into watches entirely though.

I like the above car, but a 355 replica based on an MR2!!!!???


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## carryondentist (Aug 5, 2009)

Was considering this:










Nice alfa V6 with spaceframe chassis.. But will stick with Lotus in the end. Sorry totally fftopic2: I know.


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

People buy fakes because:

they want to pass themselves off as being wealthier than they really are.

So they are fakes.


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

tomshep said:


> People buy fakes because:
> 
> they want to pass themselves off as being wealthier than they really are.
> 
> So they are fakes.


A little to generalised I think. I own a Rolex, Ebel, JLC, Raymond Weil and also a fake Rolex, you think I bought the fake to look wealthier than I really am and that I am a fake  try getting a little more education before passing such generalised judgements


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

Benzowner said:


> tomshep said:
> 
> 
> > People buy fakes because:
> ...


Out of interest, why did you buy the fake Rolex???


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

BGM said:


> Benzowner said:
> 
> 
> > tomshep said:
> ...


It was a stainless and gold Daytona, nice looking watch offered at the right price, I knew it was not genuine and was told so. It now languishes in the depths of my bedside cabinet. When I bought it I owned my Rolex Oysterdate, an Omega and my fathers baum. I suppose it was the watch that got me into chronographs as the JLC and Ebel are. It had some merits I suppose


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## Clum (Feb 14, 2009)

Benzowner said:


> BGM said:
> 
> 
> > Benzowner said:
> ...


Did you not state a reason, or am I just stupid?


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

I read the reason as:

Wanted a Rolex Daytona, but didn't want to pay Rolex Daytona prices!?


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## luddite (Dec 11, 2009)

Clum said:


> Benzowner said:
> 
> 
> > BGM said:
> ...


The reason is I suspect because he wanted to. :lookaround:

That's the reason I buy things. :hypocrite:

If I amoffered a good copy with a genuine ETA I may buy one myself.

Because I want to, not to appear wealthy.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

I started a reasoned further discussion on this subject, and then, do you know what? :to_become_senile: Scrubbed the whole thing. :yes:

Send round the counterfeit enforcers, I own some fakes, I occasionally wear them  , they work well and keep time, and frankly My Dears, I don't give a damn! I've stood in an AD wearing an Alpha and looked at a real Rolly, and fine, if that's what you want! :lookaround:

My standard offer applies :- if you have a fake you can't bring yourself to wear, jiffy bag it and ask me for my address, it'll be out of circulation, labelled as a fake and never sold on - and it'll get wound along with the rest and occasionally given an outing :yes:

I think I've around fifteen now, a few more and I'll take the piccies and do the web page. I *DON'T* buy fakes, all the ones I own have been given to me by folks who know of my interest in watches and their insides! Maybe one day I'll aspire to the real thing, till then, I'll stick with my affortdabales, it's amazing what you can get for under Â£50 or Â£60 in legit homages or designs. :man_in_love:


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## panholio (Apr 28, 2008)

The first watch I bought was a fake on holiday in Turkey about ten years ago. I guess it got me into watches. I'm now in a better position financially such that I bought my first "expensive" watch last year.

No-ones really lost out, certainly not the high end watch manufacturers. All the fake did was increase my desire for the real thing!


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

Benzowner: I have enough education to know that you are almost certainly not a Benz owner although you may be wishing to be identified by your ownership of another German marque. (Passing yourself off as being wealthy, perhaps?)


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)




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## itsguy (Nov 16, 2009)

Not wanting to rattle anyone's cages, but...

Tomshep, I'd have to disagree that the only reason people buy fakes / reps is to show off. Sure, maybe some do, but equally likely the reason is that Swiss watches are beautiful and desirable and really, really, really expensive... and the desire to have it is larger than the available funds. It doesn't have to be about trying to look rich to some third party. Imagine if we couldn't legally look at pictures of beautiful watches! It may be a giant legal leap but it's a small step from a picture to a 'scale model', it's not hard to understand the fascination.

I've argued against the unthinking accepting of piracy on this thread, but thinking about it, I wonder if anyone has a realistic figure for what the counterfeit market does to the Swiss market? How many people who could actually afford the real thing decide to get a copy instead? How many who might have bought choose not to because people might think it's a rep, or because they think that model is looking a bit common? Subtract from that all the people who started with a copy, got the bug, and ended up with the real thing. And to what degree has the number of fakes increased brand awareness for otherwise quite obscure watch makers? It must be hard to get an actual scientific idea of the figures for things like this, or am I wrong there?

I can't possibly imagine it's a good thing on balance, but my point is, 1 replica Rolex does not equal 1 lost sale. I'd like to know the real figures if anyone has a clue.


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

This thread keeps going on and on and more often than not straying down irrelevant paths.

To clear things up, the original question was 'why would somebody buy a fake swiss watch?'

NOT 'what are people's moral views on fakes?'

NOT 'are fakes leagl/illegal or otherwise?'

NOT 'are fakes good/bad, harmless or otherwise?'

AGAIN, 'why do some people buy a fake watch?'.

I stand by my argument that people buy a fake because they can't or won't buy the real thing but want the NAME/BRAND (and then the psycho-analitic argument that they are fundamentally fake themselves, but put that bit aside, for now!). I don't think anyone has offered a reason that does not fundamentally fall into the above category.

Once again, to counter a couple of repetitive arguments:

- Swiss watches are a rip off, then buy a brand that represents better value for money (pleanty around)

- Wanted the look, then buy an unbranded copy or homage (again, very difficult to find a model that doesn't have a lookie=likey).

- I just wanted one. Then you admit you wanted the name but didn't want to pay the asking price. If you don't want to pay the price then don't get the name.

- The watch I wanted was well out of my price range. Get one that's in your price range. Again, you admit you want the name but can't/won't pay for it.

People who buy fakes are basically wannabes. I don't care what people say but it's true! These people have bought a watch just for the name, there are no other legitimate arguments. Those that have done it, ask yourself this question 'if the lookie-lookie man you bought your watch off had two identical watches, in every single way and were the same price, let's say cheap, one said "Alpha" on the face and one said "Rolex", which one would you buy?"

:wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

tomshep said:


> Benzowner: I have enough education to know that you are almost certainly not a Benz owner although you may be wishing to be identified by your ownership of another German marque. (Passing yourself off as being wealthy, perhaps?)


I own an S Class 3.2 petrol 1999 vintage with a mere 73k on the clock. I am certainly not wealthy, but that is a relative thing, richer than some poorer than most


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## futuristfan (Sep 13, 2009)

Have to admit in the early Eighties as a younger man had a couple of really dodgy fakes. My reasons then were to give the impression to women of being affluent, but this was an illusion that would have been easily shattered. 17 living at home with parents on a YTS scheme.

Now in my 40's the idea is just laughable why would you spend money on a fake even a good one at let's say Â£100.00 the ones we have all seen on the net, When you could pick up a chunk of 70's Omega for example on here for less than Â£200.00

Smoke and Mirrors :thumbsdown:


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

NOT 'what are people's moral views on fakes?' IMMORAL

NOT 'are fakes leagl/illegal or otherwise?' ILLEGAL

NOT 'are fakes good/bad, harmless or otherwise?' BAD

AGAIN, 'why do some people buy a fake watch?'. BECAUSE THER ARE SAD WANNBIES, faking their status

I'm not too keen on homage watches either.

BUT at least, you can say honestly you bought it for the look & not the brand. And you can't with a FAKE


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## luddite (Dec 11, 2009)

Why do people buy fake Swiss watches?

Because they want to.

Simple as that.


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

itsguy said:


> I can't possibly imagine it's a good thing on balance, but my point is, 1 replica Rolex does not equal 1 lost sale.


 You're right it doesn't.

It does equal at least two criminal acts.

Being in possession of counterfeit goods with intent to sell.

Buying / receiving counterfeit goods


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## Haggis (Apr 20, 2009)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Just wondering, when people speak of `replicas` do they include the likes of these? :huh:


I have this watch Breitling look alike, paid Â£54 in a sale. I bought a replica submariner in Corfu last year, a guy at the pool had the real deal, I thought his was a copy he thought mine was real. There were copies in the shop for Â£600, Â£150 and the usual Â£40 the shop owner got mixed up and I got a far better one than the price I paid. Whoops! The Frank Muller crazy watches are fun, but the one I picked up broke.

I agree it is a shame that anyone wearing a submariner must get fed up being asked Is that real. Whats next false breasts?


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## Clum (Feb 14, 2009)

Haggis said:


> I agree it is a shame that anyone wearing a submariner must get fed up being asked Is that real. Whats next false breasts?


Depends who you are. If you're a 17yo you're gonna get asked, if you're a 30yo supermarket clerk you're gonna get asked, if you're a 40yo investment banker or you've just pulled up in a nice car, maybe not etc


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

"BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO"  

Because they wanted to what? Finish the sentence.

Another reason used again, with no justification. Theres always a reason why someone wants something, not just because, so sorry not 'simple as that'!

If the end of the sentence is 'They wanted a Rolex, Breitling etc but didn't want to pay for the real thing' then that's what I've been getting at.

You can't just say 'because'!


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

BGM said:


> "BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO"
> 
> Because they wanted to what? Finish the sentence.
> 
> ...


The snetence does not need finishing if you apply the first part of the quote "Why do people buy fake watches?" If it is against your principals to buy fake goods, that is fine, I have no problem with that, but because some folk do buy fake goods or look alike goods or the new word, faux goods it is surely up to them. Google watche for sale and see how many replica and fake watch sites there are. I have admitted to buying a replica Rolex previously and mine was bought from a US site. Will that prevent a sale from Rolex, no. When and if I have the desire and most importantly the money  I may buy a Daytona.


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

Benzowner said:


> I have admitted to buying a replica Rolex previously and mine was bought from a US site. Will that prevent a sale from Rolex, no. When and if I have the desire and most importantly the money  I may buy a Daytona.


Ahh, so you admit to the possession of counterfeit goods, helping criminals profit from their illegal actions.

And if you are from outside the US and international crime too.

Just think about the fake you bought.

The money could have started a fund for a real Daytona.

Instead it went in the criminals' pocket, and probably paid for his genuine one

The irony in that must hurt a bit


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## foztex (Nov 6, 2005)

Clum said:


> Haggis said:
> 
> 
> > I agree it is a shame that anyone wearing a submariner must get fed up being asked Is that real. Whats next false breasts?
> ...


Of course you wouldn't be asked.

Boobs on a 40 year old investment banker! obviously fake  

Andy


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## vamos666 (May 20, 2009)

foztex said:


> Clum said:
> 
> 
> > Haggis said:
> ...


 :rofl2:

I'm off to Tescos later, i'll ask the checkout girl if they are real or not. I will report back (hopefully!)


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## cgs (Oct 28, 2009)

Heres one.

I own a fake breitling bentley and posted it on here WHAT ARE YOU WEARING TODAY, few months back.

Read through this topic and a lot of good points for either side.

I cant give a reason why i bought it,or what type of person iam. Any Help ?


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## luddite (Dec 11, 2009)

cgs said:


> Heres one.
> 
> I own a fake breitling bentley and posted it on here WHAT ARE YOU WEARING TODAY, few months back.
> 
> ...


You are a cad sir and aught to be horsewhipped. 

You obviousy bought it so young girls would fall at your feet and doormen would tip their cap thinking you are related to the Duke of Westminster.


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

bobbymonks said:


> Benzowner said:
> 
> 
> > I have admitted to buying a replica Rolex previously and mine was bought from a US site. Will that prevent a sale from Rolex, no. When and if I have the desire and most importantly the money  I may buy a Daytona.
> ...


But who would buy a real Daytona when the selling price is higher than the recommended retail. A Stainless Daytona sell for at least a couple of grand above retail, now who are the crooks/ :lol:


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## cgs (Oct 28, 2009)

ludditeinorbit said:


> cgs said:
> 
> 
> > Heres one.
> ...


So kind your remarks sir.

Regards

The duke


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## luddite (Dec 11, 2009)

cgs said:


> ludditeinorbit said:
> 
> 
> > cgs said:
> ...


Where did you buy it your grace, I quite fancy feigning great wealth and having girls chasing after me.  :hypocrite:

Ps, I wonder what is the current position with fakes?

Are they liable to confiscation and or fines for possession?


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## cgs (Oct 28, 2009)

It was bought in turkey last year.

Doubt i bought if to impress the girls,the wife would not be happy.

Girls in rotherham would nt know or be interested what a breitling bentley was.

Would they in leeds?

CGS

Did i buy my black beamer to impress the girls,i doubt it as they would not be impressed with the size of my ????


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

Benzowner said:


> bobbymonks said:
> 
> 
> > Benzowner said:
> ...


Supply and demand, basic economics.

There's some funny people on here by the way :blink:


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## vikingaccountant (Dec 9, 2009)

gt



BGM said:


> Supply and demand, basic economics.
> 
> There's some funny people on here by the way :blink:


Quite, commerce is based on that principle.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

BGM said:


> There's some funny people on here by the way :blink:


I resemble that remark  :tease:


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## TimesUp (Jan 11, 2010)

I do not understand wearing something that is not what it is representing, aka a fake. The homage thing is gray area for many, but I do not consider a fake.


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

TimesUp said:


> I do not understand wearing something that is not what it is representing, aka a fake. The homage thing is gray area for many, but I do not consider a fake.


Thereby lies the nub maybe. It may be a fake but looks like a Rolex/Breitling/Omega whatever so maybe considered advertising for the genuine article :lol:

Time for a song, Substitue - The Who :lol:


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## Citiz (Nov 18, 2009)

Yes for Â£45 and you could have got an Alpha and had a better watch than a fake

Fake = :bull*******:

Just my opinion


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## sonyman (Feb 9, 2009)

Maybe just my opinion but the alpha looks better as well.


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## vikingaccountant (Dec 9, 2009)

The fake Rolex is an honest fake. 

The Alpha to me is a shameless parody.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

vikingaccountant said:


> The fake Rolex is an honest fake.
> 
> The Alpha to me is a shameless parody.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

vikingaccountant said:


> The fake Rolex is an honest fake.
> 
> The Alpha to me is a shameless parody.


Honest fake? Surely that's a contradiction? As there can't be such a thing by definition


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## socrates (Aug 17, 2009)

A chum of mine just bought a fake planet ocean. He paid over Â£50 for it and a contact brought it back from some exotic overseas location. So it probably qualifies as a higher end fake which would sell for over Â£100 in the UK. So what's it like? It looks quite a lot like a planet ocean. That's all. It has none of the sparkle and obvious quality of the real thing. It's also not waterproof so you can't wear it for planet ocean type activities. It wouldn't fool anyone who knows about the real thing, so anyone who is fooled by it probably won't know what it's meant to be be and is therefore not going to be impressed. It won't give the wearer the pleasure of the real thing either. So, in summary, it's completely pointless on virtually every measure.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Maybe it's *fun* Socrates - no one ever mentions that factor in these debates every time they happen! 

Like why do folks buy so many carp looking Mickey, Donald and other character watches? Don't tell me it's for their kids, 'cos you see otherwise "respectable" business people with them ! So it's an inverted snobbery thing? or is it fun? :lol:


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## socrates (Aug 17, 2009)

Could be you're right, Mel. One man's meat is another man's poisson (as the French probably never say). Hang on a sec while I fetch out an emoticon - my third. Ah, here's one.


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

mel said:


> Maybe it's *fun* Socrates - no one ever mentions that factor in these debates every time they happen!
> 
> Like why do folks buy so many carp looking Mickey, Donald and other character watches? Don't tell me it's for their kids, 'cos you see otherwise "respectable" business people with them ! So it's an inverted snobbery thing? or is it fun? :lol:


Fun? :bull*******: What's fun about adding to the climbing crime rate?

Some people do have a weird sense of humour


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Specifics Bobbymonks, specifics - I don't see headlines in the paper every day about counterfeit watches, whereas I do about stabbings, Buckfast, drugs, car theft?

Anyone who forwards the "crime" argument never produces proof! :to_become_senile:

"My fake Rolex made me do it yer Honour!"

"I bought a fake Breitling and the guy who sold it me robbed the supermarket"

"The gang made me steal the Mercedes to sell watches from in the car park!"

Show me the direct link between a climbing crime rate and the sale of any kind of fake item, jeans, bootleg CD's, software, watches - and not any phrase like "statistics show"









It may not be right (counterfeiting) but it happens, and at the level we're talking about, it's pure commercial greed. Pop down the local [police] station and see just how far you get with "A guy is selling fake Rolex in Tesco's car park" Not far, I'll wager!


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## vamos666 (May 20, 2009)

bobbymonks said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe it's *fun* Socrates - no one ever mentions that factor in these debates every time they happen!
> ...


"Think of the children...for god's sake, won't someone think of the children?"


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

mel said:


> Show me the direct link between a climbing crime rate and the sale of any kind of fake item, jeans, bootleg CD's, software, watches - and not any phrase like "statistics show"


Show me anybody that buy's, sells, makes or otherwise trades in any of the above that pays income tax, or isn't defrauding the tax man a bit of a crime these days. Or that it's mostly at one end of it run buy major criminal gangs. Plenty of it to read if you google but off course it's not hitting the headlines like your we toss#r with his bottle of Buckie but that doesn't mean it isn't happening


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

C'mon Commander Bond, there's nothing new happening there - FGS - spiv's didn't pay Income Tax much during and after the war, and big biz has employed folks to wangle minimum taxes for years, they're called "accountants" - apologies to any on here, but it's like lawyers are professional liars :yes:

I really don't see Don Macaroni (or equivalent) phoning up Alpha (or equivalent) to order 10,000 each of cheapo's with Brightlight, Bollex or Homega on the dial







(or I come and breaka da legs!)

But some wholesaler (at whatever level) will place and finance the order as a purely commercial deal - 10,000 at Â£100 each shipped sold over six months equals a hell of a profit if you sell "quality replicas" at Â£300 each or more. Repeated at the bottom end, if you buy 10,000 quartz engined vaguely lookie-likie Subs and sell them for a twenty pound note at Â£13.00 each profit - well?

And Vamos, I feel for the children as you put it, but it's estimated nearly 40% of kids employed in sweatshops are the *sole or main earner for their families in these countries* Some are reckoned to have as many as 4 or 5 dependents they support from that sweatshop wage of a few cents an hour :yes:

What would (could) you replace that with like to-morrow, not in a year or three's time? A crap wage is 100% better than no wage at all  Been there, done that, held down two and three PT jobs to finance a family - it's sh*t, but it happens.

I don't say it's right, I say there's not alot yopu can do to stamp it out - some folks will always buy cheap fakes because they can, no matter what legislation says or does.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2010)

mel said:


> Specifics Bobbymonks, specifics - I don't see headlines in the paper every day about counterfeit watches, whereas I do about stabbings, Buckfast, drugs, car theft?
> 
> Anyone who forwards the "crime" argument never produces proof! :to_become_senile:
> 
> ...


I totally agree with Mel there. There are far worse crimes out there than counterfeiting goods, and if the taxman is losing some money what difference does it make-Gordon Brown would just give it away to a foreign country.

I have never bought a counterfeit watch, if I did it would be because some company has bought out a new design that I am in love with and couldn't do without yet costs more than I could afford to pay for it (which is currently a fiver ).


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

avidfan said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> > Specifics Bobbymonks, specifics - I don't see headlines in the paper every day about counterfeit watches, whereas I do about stabbings, Buckfast, drugs, car theft?
> ...


The pair of you obviously have completely different thoughts on this so pointless to argue. But maybe the West, leaders of what are certainly more prosperous nations, us as people and even GB for that matter should be trying to do something about third world poverty.

Mel - you might of had it tough in your younger years but I'll bet nowhere near as bad as some of the people in some countries, not even a patch on it.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Mel

The Chinese Triad gangs have cornered the market for fakes and Chinese manufacturers knowingly supply them movements.

Western based organised crime networks do most of the distribution outside Asia.

There are an estimated 40 million fakes produced every year.

Profits go to organised crime and are used for other illegal activities. As an example the former leader of the Vietnamese â€˜Born to Killâ€™ gang, serving life for murder, claimed to have made US$13 million from the sale of fake watches in New Yorkâ€™s Chinatown in the late 1990s.

The fake watch industry is not benign, far from it. As the FHH slogan says: "Fake watches are for fake people" .... gettit?


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## luddite (Dec 11, 2009)

JoT said:


> Mel
> 
> The Chinese Triad gangs have cornered the market for fakes and Chinese manufacturers knowingly supply them movements.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with your assessment of the income to crime lords scenario, but the slogan re fake people is contrived to say the least.

Mel seems pretty real to me.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

Most slogans are contrived  .... I happen to agree with FIH's slogan, as a generalization fake watches are for fake people I don't buy the "they are fun" argument at all.

The fake watch industry is a multi-hundred million dollar criminal enterprise the proceeds of which are used to fund other criminal activities, the sooner people appreciate that it is not a benign industry the better.


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## vamos666 (May 20, 2009)

mel said:


> And Vamos, I feel for the children as you put it, but it's estimated nearly 40% of kids employed in sweatshops are the *sole or main earner for their families in these countries* Some are reckoned to have as many as 4 or 5 dependents they support from that sweatshop wage of a few cents an hour :yes:
> 
> What would (could) you replace that with like to-morrow, not in a year or three's time? A crap wage is 100% better than no wage at all  Been there, done that, held down two and three PT jobs to finance a family - it's sh*t, but it happens.
> 
> I don't say it's right, I say there's not alot yopu can do to stamp it out - some folks will always buy cheap fakes because they can, no matter what legislation says or does.


Sorry, i was just p***ing about, i didn't mean "think of the children" because i have any specific views on child labour, it was just a cheeky poke at some posters who have strong views about counterfeit goods. A 'Daily Mail' Headline, if you will.

Anyway, back to scratching my a**e

:to_become_senile:


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## Livius de Balzac (Oct 6, 2006)

JoT said:


> Most slogans are contrived
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## luddite (Dec 11, 2009)

Would you buy a "My other watch is a Rolex" sticker? 

The reason that people buy fake watches is that the Swiss watch industry make them so damn desirable, but so damn expensive.

As the merecat said.

Simples.


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## watchnutz (Jan 18, 2008)

This discussion could go on forever as has the producing and selling of fake watches. This is how old the practice is.

Prior to 1871 the Swiss flooded the market with fake American watches. *GASP!!* They closely resembled the ones thay were emulating and used names similar to the American watches or names of American towns. As a result a law was enacted in 1871 requiring all watches to be marked with the country of origin. The Swiss tried to get around the law by making the country of origin so small or obscure that it was almost impossible to see.

Eventually the American watch industry was no longer competitive and ceased to exist and so the practice of faking American watches died along with the industry.

For me there is a huge difference between the market that outwardly sells fakes as such and at a low cost and one that sells a fake as real at the cost of the real watch. (I do realize that is harmful to the real maker but at least not to the consumer) I don't own a Rolex (because of cost and lack of fascination) so am not an expert on identifying a fake. Just yesterday though I had a chance to see how an individual can be ripped off. A good friend asked me to take his Datejust to my master watchmaker to have him change out the dial to one he purchased with diamond markers. The watch had been a gift from his brother/business partner who paid $3200 for it. My watchmaker took a quick look at it and informed me it was a fake and he would not work on it. he pointed out the wear on the crown exposing it was not solid gold and the fact the band was not Rolex quality. Needless to say both brothers were devastated when I had to tell them.


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

JoT said:


> Most slogans are contrived  .... I happen to agree with FIH's slogan, as a generalization fake watches are for fake people I don't buy the "they are fun" argument at all.
> 
> The fake watch industry is a multi-hundred million dollar criminal enterprise the proceeds of which are used to fund other criminal activities, the sooner people appreciate that it is not a benign industry the better.


But that would mean multi-millions of people were paying more than a hunderd dollars for a fake watch. I find that hard to believe. Buying a fake I can understand, paying "proper" money for one, I just can't.

TBH I'd love to know the real figures, profits on fake sales, losses to the Swiss industry but it's all a guess, like when you see stories like "Police recover haul of fake clothing worth Â£50000", the assumed top street sale price when the actual value is nearer to tuppence.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

MarkF said:


> JoT said:
> 
> 
> > Most slogans are contrived  .... I happen to agree with FIH's slogan, as a generalization fake watches are for fake people I don't buy the "they are fun" argument at all.
> ...


How did you work out $100 a watch?

40 million watches a year x $10 a watch is $400M i.e. multi-hundred million


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

JoT said:


> How did you work out $100 a watch?


Incorrectly 

Still, the figures are too large for me, 40 million at $10 or 4 million at $100 or anywhere in-between.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

MarkF said:


> JoT said:
> 
> 
> > How did you work out $100 a watch?
> ...


Well they aren't my numbers the 40 million is an estimate I read somewhere but it seems a lot more realtic than 4 million, but I agree that the numbers can only be estimated and not known for certain.


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

JoT said:


> Well they aren't my numbers the 40 million is an estimate I read somewhere but it seems a lot more realtic than 4 million, but I agree that the numbers can only be estimated and not known for certain.


Yes, I've been googling and none of the figures make sense to me. "The illegal counterfeit market is said to cost the Swiss economy an estimated $1.79 billion a year, according to the Swiss Import-Export Bulletin Board." But when you look at the current Swiss manufacturers export figures and values it can't be anywhere near right. Still, it'd be fun to know.

BTW I was given a box of fake subs in lieu of a debt years ago and apart from using 3 as an incentive to get a discount from some wrought iron gate installers (  ) they are of no value to me.


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## itsguy (Nov 16, 2009)

MarkF said:


> JoT said:
> 
> 
> > Well they aren't my numbers the 40 million is an estimate I read somewhere but it seems a lot more realtic than 4 million, but I agree that the numbers can only be estimated and not known for certain.
> ...


I agree, it would be interesting to know how they arrived at that figure - as stated earlier, one fake Rolex obviously does not equal one lost sale, and calculating what it does mean could be extremely tricky. Do they say how they did it?

And before anyone flames me, I'm not interested in justifying it one bit - as a film maker I'm in the anti-piracy camp, and would have a nice new house if people had paid for my films instead of downloading them.

I'd just like some actual facts - it would be good to get those 'Freakonomics' guys take on it, it's very complex, and it's only going to get more and more important in the future.

PS - very interesting info about the history, Watchnutz.


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

I doubt they equate a fake Rollie to a lost sale, no doubt they have made some sort of estimate for a share of the fake market, it is probably quite subjective.


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

Here is a good reason not to wear a fake in France.










D'accord.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

I/ve put it the right way up so people don't twist their neck like I just did :lol:


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

The big crime in watches is the bast**d who mugs you and steals your real Rolex/Omega/Tag etc, wear the fake and make a mug of him :groan:


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## Paulus (Nov 12, 2009)

Some interesting assumptions have been made on this thread, very revealing about people's values.

I don't think companies like Rolex are worried by the fakes, quite the opposite as it all adds to the brand's prestige and profile and doesn't erode sales of the genuine versions. Let's face it they're still selling an awful lot of watches and yet somehow maintaining the illusion of exclusivity. Is every fake sold taking away a sale of a genuine version? Hardly.

40m units is pretty trivial in terms of global sales per annum of over a billion units, the swatch group gross sales in 2009 were Â£3.25bn, the total swiss watch industry exports in 2008 were Â£10.2bn, citizen alone make over 300m quartz movements a year.

As for my personal view, I wouldn't wear a fake as a matter of taste rather than principle, I don't mind homages, and wearing a watch to show off wealth and status is deeply naff whether it's fake or genuine.

Trademark infringement and ripping off intellectual property isn't very nice in any market but I really can't bring myself to get very exercised about it, especially considering some of the other things going on in the world.

:dontgetit:


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## BGM (Jan 21, 2009)

Paulus said:


> I don't think companies like Rolex are worried by the fakes..... as it all adds to the brand's prestige and profile and doesn't erode sales of the genuine versions.


Tell that to Burberry!!!

I know I wouldn't buy a bi-metal sub (if I were in a position to) purely down to the fact that there are so many fakes, I would get sick of people asking if it were real or not. Therefore (a number of) fakes have definately contributed to one lost sale!


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## Benzowner (Nov 11, 2009)

BGM said:


> Paulus said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think companies like Rolex are worried by the fakes..... as it all adds to the brand's prestige and profile and doesn't erode sales of the genuine versions.
> ...


This question of is it real or not has popped up a couple of time, I have never been asked or asked anyone if their watch was a real whatever brand, do people really ask this or do they assume its a fake and say nothing :rofl2:


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## Clum (Feb 14, 2009)

Benzowner said:


> This question of is it real or not has popped up a couple of time, I have never been asked or asked anyone if their watch was a real whatever brand, do people really ask this or do they assume its a fake and say nothing :rofl2:


As I said earlier it depends on the person. I noticed the Rolex of a friend of a friend once and asked him if it was real. I was 20 at the time and it turned out it was genuine, was a 21st birthday present to him (lucky git). He then went on to say that his housemate however had the exact same model that was a counterfeit; I wouldn't want to mix those up!

But when my Uncle shows me his Breitlings or Tags, the thought of them being fake doesn't even cross my mind. I just drool over them :lol:


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

I've been asked a couple of times if my Sub is real.

I've said it's fake, no one believed me.

I've said it's real, no one believed me.

So I can't win either way !!

Now I just say "what do you think?" and just confirm what they have said, as I don't have time to waste arguing about it.

I know the truth about my Sub or any of my watches, and I just don't care if you believe it or not.

People in general choose to believe whatever they like, so I just leave them to it.


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## ralphy (Nov 24, 2008)

BGM said:


> I know I wouldn't buy a bi-metal sub (if I were in a position to) purely down to the fact that there are so many fakes, I would get sick of people asking if it were real or not. Therefore (a number of) fakes have definately contributed to one lost sale!


I've worn a bi-metal Sub for about 9 years and no-one has ever asked me if it was 'real or not'.










I'd never buy or wear a fake, as far as I'm concerned it's a case of "fake watch, fake person".

R


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

The real thing stands out to a WIS anyway.


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## HereBeMonsters (Jul 27, 2009)

[quote name='Citiz' date='12 January 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1263336979' post='519281'

I dont understand why anyone would want to wear a fake, I would rather have a high end Seiko or a Tissot for the price he paid for them


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## Clum (Feb 14, 2009)

HereBeMonsters said:


> Panny is now on a cheaper leather thing, and it only gets worn if I need a posh looking watch which I don't mind if it gets scratched or stolen - things like going out of a weekend etc.


So you wear a fake watch, when you're with your friends, out socialising, in public...


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## HereBeMonsters (Jul 27, 2009)

Clum said:


> HereBeMonsters said:
> 
> 
> > Panny is now on a cheaper leather thing, and it only gets worn if I need a posh looking watch which I don't mind if it gets scratched or stolen - things like going out of a weekend etc.
> ...


No, it's very much a real watch. A proper physical thing etc. To be honest none of my friends share my interest, and as I said I only wear it if we're going to somewhere that requires posh-ish dress but I know I might have a skinful. Wearing one of my Omegas or Tags I'd be too fearful of damaging it, and I can't exactly wear a G-Shock with a nice shirt and trousers can I?


----------

