# 30 Hour Non-Luminous Mark V



## rhaythorne

Hmm, where to post a vintage, military, pocket watch? Â As the Military Watches section of the forum has had the least replies recently, here will do nicely 

This arrived today from another, well-known, on-line dealer:

*Zenith, 30 Hour, Non-Luminous, Mark V*










According to Wesolowski and other sources, these were issued by a number of manufacturers to the Royal Flying Corps during the First World War from around 1916 and were used as aircraft cockpit clocks. Â Later on, when night flying missions became more common, a luminous version was issued.

Apparently, the movement in the Zenith was used as the basis for that used in the Zenith pocket watches issued to the Royal Navy's Hydrographic Department some 30 years later during the Second World War.

The movements certainly look similar in many respects:

*Movement from Zenith RFC Mark V Pocket Watch, circa 1916*








Â

*Movement from Zenith HS3 Royal Navy Hydrographic Survey Pocket Watch, circa 1940's*










Now that we can post links to other forums, I can point you in the direction of this thread on the IHC185 forum where there's a lot of information about the different manufacturers of and history of the Mark V pocket watches:

http://ihc185.infopo...m/121105785/p/1


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## jasonm

Very interesting, cheers Rich...

The way it is actually specified that it is non-luminous, would that suggest it was for a specific use? Like, 'we dont want that luminous on, get the non-luminous one'

I struggle to understand why it would actually say non-lum on the dial unless it was important to distinguish the 2 types...


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## rhaythorne

Good point Jase, I hadn't really thought about the logic behind the markings.

I've read various anecdotes about the lume on some watch dials being shaken loose and disrupting the movement. Â So you might not want a luminous watch in your rattly old WW1 biplane and the non-lume version would be preferable. Â On the other hand, if you're flying a sortie at night (which was a relatively new development at the time) a non-luminous watch wouldn't be much good to you and you'd certainly prefer a shiny one.

As such, I guess they marked the dials accordingly to save the chap issuing the watch having to disappear into the back of a dark cupboard somewhere to check if the dial glowed or not, or for the mechanics fitting them to the planes to ensure they fitted the correct type maybe?

Just my guess. Â Perhaps there's another reason.Â


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## JoT

Most WW1 biplanes only flew during daylight so would not have needed luminous hands/dials. Beautiful movement with an interesting regulator?


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## rhaythorne

Yes, the regulation mechanism appears to be the same in both watches. Â I've no idea how it works!

As to night flying, there's an interesting snippet on one theÂ RAF's web pages :

"19 - 20 Jan 1915- The first airship raid on Britain. Zeppelins of the Imperial German Navy Airship Division drop bombs on Great Yarmouth and Kings Lynn, Norfolk, killing 5 people. The RFC flew its first ever night sorties against the raiders, but two aircraft failed to intercept. During the entire war 56 tons of bombs fell on London and 214 tons elsewhere."

And a further snippet from the 1917 timeline page:

"23 Feb 1917- No. 100 Sqn arrives in France as the first night bomber squadron. It is equipped with FE2b aircraft. Originally formed at Hingham, Norfolk, the squadron moves to France a month later."


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## Jim Attrill

Those are perfectly lovely watches, and would definitely been classed as 'V and A'. I still use this definition for certain articles that are liable to be stolen - for an example, an aircraft engine of any type is certainly extremely 'valuable' but is not 'attractive' to thieves. But a cockpit watch is absolutely V and A.

I am sorry if I am preaching to the converted...

I also believe that in the WWI era the pilot had to sign for the watch, and if he didn't bring it back after a crash (I suppose on our side of the lines) that he would be charged for it. If he crashed on the German side he didn't have to worry...


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## rebster60

The black face of the watch and non lum dial and hands, was not to destroy the pilots night vision as far as I have read.


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## Spitfirepeter

How do you remove the back cover? Are the screwed on or just pushed on?


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## rhaythorne

Just pushed on.


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## Always"watching"

Dear @rhaythorne, I obviously missed this fascinating thread about your non-luminous Zenith watch - thanks for posting it. I would be interested to know exactly when watches were first regularly lumed more generally and what the price difference was then between a lumed and a non-lumed watch. I agree with the opinion that suggests the use of lumed watches by military pilots became frequent after the adoption of night missions.


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## Dill

Folks, stumbled on this thread, I have one of these marked as Doxa on case and movement non luminous mk5 in working order, keeps pretty good time, inherited from my father. times are hard and thinking of selling it but have know idea of its worth or who to contact. Any help would be appreciated


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## Always"watching"

Dear @Dill, please note that we cannot value watches here on the Forum for what I believe are obvious reasons.

If you would like some historical/technical information on the watch then please post some photos and a description, perhaps with a few words about yourself as a new member.


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