# Replica Quality



## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

Hi all,

Was looking at a replica watch site the other day, not because it was selling replica's - but it also sells ETA 2824-2 stock movements

at a good price & I really like this movement and it seemed a good base to start with.

Whilst looking, I noticed that some of it's replica watches were available with the ETA 2824-2 and looked really good quality.

I then decided to give it a whirl and bought one.

The watch turned up yesterday, and I have to say that the quality is top notch!

The dial quality is superb, the positioning of the minute markers stays bang on in line to the minute hand all around the dial

(a first for me I can tell you)

The thing is powered by a stock grade ETA 2824-2 (no surprises here then)

The Lume on the Dial & Hands is Good - nearly as bright as my seiko's

The winding is smooth, the hands set without jumping

The case quality is on a par with my Seiko divers.

Overall, very happy.

Now, IF the manufacturer of the watch that this one copies can get it as good as this......

Regards,

Graham


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## VinceR (Oct 21, 2005)

Replica's are just wrong


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

Oh blimey, Graham has reached for the ol can opener!

Some obsevations if I may.

Yes, replicas are wrong, no question about that. No matter if we like them or not they do exist and people buy them all the time.

Jumping up and down and abusing people who buy them won't make them go away.

I remember reading a very informative article comparing a fake Sea Dweller to a real one. I have kept it for reference for when I buy my own SD (real one!). The guy who wrote the article didn't half have to take some flack for his trouble!

People who buy them to wear them and to experience the 'feel' of the real thing are not murderers.

People who buy them to rip people off deserve to be Jailed.

If you want to be angry, be angry with Gordon Brown, he's F* you up much more than a fake watch ever could.

Cheers


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## Fatbloke (Oct 15, 2007)

Russ said:


> Oh blimey, Graham has reached for the ol can opener!
> 
> Some obsevations if I may.
> 
> ...


that really cheered me up

well done on putting that forward so elequently


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## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

Vince,

I agree,

I actually own the 'Proper' watch that the replica is based on.

The dial quality is better on the replica than it is on the 'real' watch.

And to the other Forum members out there, I did not buy this to pretend that I am something that I am not.

I have just finished busting my gut working 12 hour shifts to pay for the real thing and only decided to buy

the replica to protect my investment by allowing me to enjoy the 'same' watch in an environment

that I would not otherwise wear the real watch.

I did not buy to impress, merely to experience a quality item that was worth my hard work....

No opening a can of worms intended...

Regards,

Graham..


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## Fatbloke (Oct 15, 2007)

fair play to you

i have nothing against people who buy fakes/replicas/homages

maybe deep down i envy people who can wear a fake and be as proud of it as we are of the real thing


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## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

Fatbloke said:


> fair play to you
> 
> i have nothing against people who buy fakes/replicas/homages
> 
> maybe deep down i envy people who can wear a fake and be as proud of it as we are of the real thing


I just know that this IS going to open a can of worms but there was a thread going on the other week about dial positioning/accuracy

and I do believe that Griff had alot of input into this, but on my 'real' watch that wasn't cheap!! the dial minute markers are spot on

until 35 then go all to **it until 55 then are ok again.

I personally get *issed off with this, I spent Â£1,200 on this piece of kit.

now the point of this topic is.. the replica gets it SPOT ON.;

Now wtf is going on.?

Cheers Graham..


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## Barryboy (Mar 21, 2006)

grahamr said:


> Fatbloke said:
> 
> 
> > fair play to you
> ...


I know what you mean, Graham. Once respected makers have cut costs time after time in the search for more profitability, and one of the things that always goes is quality control. It's not just watches, it's endemic throughout manufacturing and unfortunately it's not getting any better. This is a direct result of a business model called 'short-termism' and the classic example of this is Mercedes-Benz whose once legendary build quality started sliding badly four or five years ago, although I believe they have got back on an even keel again.

I can only assume that the manufacturers of these fakes don't have to show ever increasing profitability and meet ever tightening budgets. As I understand it most of these watches originate in China, and by the time you buy this thing in the pub for fifty quid it has probably had at least one intermediary owner. So if the manufacturer makes a profit, the importer makes a profit and the dealer makes a profit out of the fifty quid or so you pay for what is after all quite a decent watch that has come half way around the world, don't you wonder what the profits are in an original item that retails at well over a grand?

And that last point, kiddies, is exactly why people are prepared to run unlicensed software on their computers, download music MP3's from Kazaa and the like, buy fake jeans at a small fraction of the price of the originals and wear replica watches.

Rob


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Graham,

At least it means you'll never get the two of them mixed up







You'll always know the Â£real one is the one with the duff dial! Yes, replica watches are morally wrong, but then so are bootleg CD's, DVD's that have the audience participation (filmed in a cinema) and fake Nike and on and on - and on!

I now have two replica watches and I too am gobsmacked at the quality of some of them. But how many of us can honestly say we don't have a replica/fake/copy item of audio, video, footwear, clothing or (shhhh!) software somewhere in the house?









We all know it's "wrong" but most of us still do it! (now where's that 8 track of Frank Sinatra I bought in Bulgaria, the one with the hand-writen label? )

Be a 100% honest and think, can you honestly say there's NOT any bootleg-ish item anywhere in the house? Remember taping that movie from the telly? Let your mate see it and it's illegal!


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## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

Barryboy said:


> grahamr said:
> 
> 
> > Fatbloke said:
> ...


Yes Rob, you've hit the nail square on the head with that, and you're right about MBenz too!!

Cheers,

Graham.


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

mel said:


> Graham,
> 
> At least it means you'll never get the two of them mixed up
> 
> ...


The last paragraph says it all Mel, even those who are determined to be totally honest will have fallen foul of the law at some time. Whether they know it or not.


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## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

mel said:


> Graham,
> 
> At least it means you'll never get the two of them mixed up
> 
> ...


Mel,- as ever, you are a true scholar and gent,, - you are sooo *ucking right though!!

Ps, love the bit about the duff dial
















Cheers,

graham..


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

A friend of mine has been building a replica Lambo Countach for as long as ive known him (a long time) and for what hes spent he could buy a used real one now, but thats not the point im making. Years back he ordered a badge for the back. It came and we set about looking at the photos about where and how to fit it. All the pics he had (of lots of real cars) showed the badge off set, not level and most of them had a bend in the badge from where the mould had warped. we could have fitted it perfectly straight and level, and the badge itself was 'prefect' so it would have looked good. In the end we bent the badge and fitted it slightly skewiff as then it looked 'original'. In life you often find that the more you pay the worse the quality of the item - handmade does not mean perfect for example.

Just an illustration and my 2c...


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

Buying a replica is something that does not trouble me, I have one, although it was given to me.

The snobbiness is what gets me, I have noted that Graham would have had a lot more grief by now if he hadn't piped up and said he that the real deal as well as the replica. Are you a worse person if there is no way that you can get the Â£1200 (or whatever) together?


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

JonW said:


> A friend of mine has been building a replica Lambo Countach for as long as ive known him (a long time)


Now that does make me laugh, look-a-like cars! Do they ***K









Ferrari kits on MR2's are my favourite


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## Rinaldo1711 (Apr 11, 2007)

Not another replica thread....................


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## VinceR (Oct 21, 2005)

mel said:


> But how many of us can honestly say we don't have a replica/fake/copy item of audio, video, footwear, clothing or (shhhh!) software somewhere in the house?


I can, and very proud of that fact! As far as I'm concerned if I want something then it's the real deal I buy. I know it's personal taste but I cannot abide replicas of any description, that inlcudes SW, CD's, DVD's, clothing, etc. I feel for the unwillingly duped though.


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## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

I feel that the whole replica thing is a very grey area:

If the replica is bought by a person who knows it's a replica,

then is that person low in moral standing because he wears it to make

people think that it's the real deal?

In my case, I own the real deal and wear the replica at work, if I ding it

then fair enough. most of the people at work couldn't give a flying **

as to what watch people are wearing, and those that do notice

can understand why you wouldn't want to wear the real one to work.

Most of these replica's are made by probably very cheap labour,

in china and the far east,

the profit from the sale of these goods may well

feed other dubious practices.

The point of this thread was to highlight that

in the case of this "Swiss movement" replica

the quality of certain parts of the item is actually better

than the watch it copies,

Now I don't know about you, but I find that incredible.

It's high time that "luxury" watch manufacturers take

a step back and look at the "actual" quality of their watches,

and stop this phoney marketing on the "percieved" quality.

The two things are completely different:

One is brand/Image AND snobbery marketing,

the other is value for money.

Regards,

Graham


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

of course according to Mr Bush and Mr Blair you have indirectly funded international terrorism with your purchase


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## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

pg tips said:


> of course according to Mr Bush and Mr Blair you have indirectly funded international terrorism with your purchase


Holy **it

Best tell the 710 to start packing..


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## pugster (Nov 22, 2004)

personally i dont see the point of buying a replica of a watch you already own,why not keep the 'real' watch for special occasions and just buy a lower value 'real' one with the same movement? ,that being said i have no problem with replica/homage or other similar watches,as a collector myself i would feel foolish if another collector spotted the watch as a fake tho its up to each person what they want to wear at the end of the day, i recently got hold of an asian 7750 that had a tudor carbon dial that looked very nice but i cant bring myself to wear it like that and the dial is going to be changed asap to a no namer or one of the 70's brands that disappeared and was not well known,i guess it just irks some ppl that have paid alot of money for a watch to see them faked, kudos to you for saying you have bought one and at least you can turn round and tell another collector you have an original aswel.


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## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

pugster said:


> personally i dont see the point of buying a replica of a watch you already own,why not keep the 'real' watch for special occasions and just buy a lower value 'real' one with the same movement? ,that being said i have no problem with replica/homage or other similar watches,as a collector myself i would feel foolish if another collector spotted the watch as a fake tho its up to each person what they want to wear at the end of the day, i recently got hold of an asian 7750 that had a tudor carbon dial that looked very nice but i cant bring myself to wear it like that and the dial is going to be changed asap to a no namer or one of the 70's brands that disappeared and was not well known,i guess it just irks some ppl that have paid alot of money for a watch to see them faked, kudos to you for saying you have bought one and at least you can turn round and tell another collector you have an original aswel.


Yes I agree, it's a double edged sword, a friend of mine buys some really,really nice watches,

I only ever see them once, then he packs them away again and puts his pulsar quartz beater

back on again.

I think with me I would have bought the "Real" watch regardless of what name was

stamped on it, I just like the case,and dial/hand design so much.

so buying the replica means that I can admire the design on a daily basis.

Another friend of mine wears a Tag pro 200 metre diver to work and

nearly cries when he inevitably dings and sratches the bracelet/case.

Should he buy a Tag replica?
















Regards,

Graham


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

As you say *pugster*, it's all down to personal perception. I've only once ever been asked about the HK Rolly (one of my replicas) Submariner, and the question was direct.

"Is that a Rolex?" "Naah, it's a cheap copy" "Where could I get one of those?"

OTOH, I've been asked a few times about the blue Alpha Sub, and that's been more like :-

"That's a nice watch, what is it?"

So even non-watch people's perceptions are skewed. I guess it's the placement process, people know vaguely what a Sub looks like from movies and celebs but have never actually seen one for real.

So send me the dial off your "homage" when you take it off, and I'll fit it to an affordable Chinese movement







I'm not in the slightest worried about it!


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## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

mel said:


> As you say *pugster*, it's all down to personal perception. I've only once ever been asked about the HK Rolly (one of my replicas) Submariner, and the question was direct.
> 
> "Is that a Rolex?" "Naah, it's a cheap copy" "Where could I get one of those?"
> 
> ...


Ditto that Mel,

I get asked that same question about my alpha all the time,

and most of the time the response is the same, "where did you get it?"

Regards,

Graham


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Personally I would not own or wear any fake/replica watch, I don`t consider a watch which looks like/is near identical to another but has Alpha, Zeno, Rotary or whatever on the dial to be a fake/replica so do own and wear them.

However if other people wish to own/wear fake/replica watches I don`t feel I have the right to make any judgement on their choices and certainly wouldn`t get all holier then thou about it.


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## pugster (Nov 22, 2004)

mel ,this is the tudor dial that was on the movement i got fits either eta or asian 7750 ,theres a small amount of damage on the bottom subdial that someone has filled in with a black marker tho you cant notice this on the wrist ,shame really as i really like carbon dials ,pm me your address and i'll pop it in the post next week if you want it.


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## rhaythorne (Jan 12, 2004)

Rinaldo1711 said:


> Not another replica thread....................


Yep, a replica replica thread. Not sure if it's as good quality as the original though


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

rhaythorne said:


> Rinaldo1711 said:
> 
> 
> > Not another replica thread....................
> ...


Hang on, how do I know this really is `The Watch Forum` & not some cheap Asian copy?


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## langtoftlad (Mar 31, 2007)

Surely *every* watch is a replica...? Or a copy...?

...every dial is a 'copy' of whoever designed the first clockface, with the tradition of twelve hours, two hands for hours & minutes!

...every wristwatch is a copy of whoever had the original idea of taking a pocket watch, and sticking it on a strap!

Isn't every 'divers' style a replica - of whoever had the original idea of a rotating bezel etc etc?

It seems strange to me that we get moral indignation about dials & fonts, yet no outrage at design similarities of straps or bracelets etc etc

And if we are discussing moralities...

How moral is it that certain brand names get away with charging prices which bear no relation to costs.

How moral is that these prices are raised to level that the market will bear.

How moral is it that different prices are charged for the same product purely based on location.

How moral is it that certain brand names try to monopolise the market by only selling through AD, trying to (illegally?) frustrate competition laws.

How moral is it that a brand "suggests" it was made in a certain location when in reality the parts were manufactured elsewhere.

...and in regards 'pirating' music - how moral is it that the record companies own an artist's music even after all advances & costs have been paid, even after their contract has expired?

Morality is a strange beast - hard to tie down.


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## gallch (Jan 7, 2007)

langtoftlad said:


> Surely *every* watch is a replica...? Or a copy...?
> 
> ...every dial is a 'copy' of whoever designed the first clockface, with the tradition of twelve hours, two hands for hours & minutes!
> 
> ...


Ohh dear, it is Friday isn't it ? I'm sure I've said this before, so this post is probably a cheap copy...

...the economics of high-end branded goods don't work quite as simply as that. True, the production costs are much closer to those of the cheaper end of the market than people like to think, but the major luxury brands don't necessarily turn in better profits. The reason is a kind of luxury brand trap - the higher the price of the goods, the lower the turnover. The lower the turnover, the more they have to spend on staff, high-rental cost outlets, glossy advertising etc etc etc. in order to attract any customers at all. I happened to see Theo Fennell's accounts last year - they are making 2% net profit on turnover, which means if you buy one of their Â£20,000 Franck Muller watches they make all of Â£400 net.

Even Rolex, who sell an awful lot of watches in total, suffer from this. Go stand outside a Rolex outlet and see how often someone buys anything...


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## langtoftlad (Mar 31, 2007)

It's a vicious circle - they have to have all the posh trappings to convince the customers to pay the over inflated prices...

I think the likes of the Brand manufacturers do alright, otherwise they wouldn't follow that business model


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## gallch (Jan 7, 2007)

langtoftlad said:


> It's a vicious circle - they have to have all the posh trappings to convince the customers to pay the over inflated prices...
> 
> I think the likes of the Brand manufacturers do alright, otherwise they wouldn't follow that business model


Luxury brands do get into trouble, maybe not in current economic conditions, but if there's a downturn some of them will struggle. My guess is that the really smart folk spread the risk - e.g. Swatch Group.

Anyhow - time for me and my genuine vintage Cyma Navystar to head for home....


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Bla bla blaaaaaaaaaaaaa....


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## langtoftlad (Mar 31, 2007)

jasonm said:


> Bla bla blaaaaaaaaaaaaa....


That was an unashamed copy of a post made in an earlier thread... FAKE!!!


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

I insist its a homage.......


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> rhaythorne said:
> 
> 
> > Rinaldo1711 said:
> ...


What? you mean I'm posting on The Alpha Watch Forum?


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## buktimah (Nov 14, 2007)

I am one of those that do not support nor against replica. Frankly, some replica are so good that you really can't tell a difference till you open up to check the internal parts.

However, I feel that some of the 'branded watches' are popular more due to marketing than quality. If they have the quality, then replica cannot never replace them unless they price themselves so much higher that is it not worth the $. If one has to spend more than US$1,000 to buy a replica, I would imagine you would rather buy the real thing.

If you are a replica agent and you are producing quality replica. I would suggest you start producing good value watches under your own brand. As long as you have great design and it is value for money, I want to believe there are buyers out there willing to buy them then the replica. For example, if you produce great mechanical watches between US$300 to US$800, I think there is a market for them.

I am one of those that don't really bother about brand but more the quality and design.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

I was chatting to JonW about this, I really want a Radiomir, I may not ever be able to afford one, so I was looking at the various replicas available, but then I thought no, otherwise what do we have to aspire to? Maybe there should be watches we have to just admire from the wrong side of the glass shop front...If its always just a matter of Paypaling 25 quid to China to get something that looks exactly like it ( and just having different letters on the dial is not different enough to not make it a copy imho ) then I think the originals specialness is diluted...

Just my opinion....

Your own is just as valid


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

Indeed Jase... Replicas are so Gen Y... the 'I want it now and cant understand why I cant have it without all the effort' Generation...


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

I can see what you are saying Jon but in my case at least I just like the style of the copies I`ve got.

I have seen most of the originals and have no desire to own them enough to pay out what they cost, I`m not saying they are over priced, just more then I`m willing to pay for the enjoyment I`d get from ownership.

For example....

I happily paid Â£700 for this Breitling Superocean










& around Â£30 for this Alpha










I do prefer the Breitling but get almost as much enjoyment from wearing the Alpha.

I can understand how & why some would prefer the original Omega but I know I wouldn`t enjoy it enough to pay Â£1800 for one, Â£1800 would allow me to buy a lot of interesting watches









In the end it really is a case of each to their own


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## seiko6139 (Aug 25, 2003)

I was once stung on fleabay. I bought what I thought was an SKX009 and it turned out to be a Chinese copy :*****:

I had to go through Paypal to get my money back and it took several weeks to do so.

The only replicas I wholly agree with are Rolex replicas as the real thing is way overpriced and I liken them to a sugar coated turd.

Vintage Rolexes are an entirely different matter though.

People who spend thousands on new Rolexes must have money to burn. Their servicing policy stinks too.

Rant over.


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## ESL (Jan 27, 2004)

I have a Rolex "Kermit" Anniversary model (fake) from a project I did over a year ago now and only keep it to warn others of the quality of fake goods these days. I have now had a guy who had owns a real one spooked, because I challenged him to a contest to tell them apart.

I bet he could not positively identify which was the fake and which was his, and what was the thing that was wrong with it and therefore made it fake.

He looked for a good 10 minutes before bottling it totally and demanded I give his real watch back. One week later he was still ringing me up, bricking it, because he was convinced I had given him the fake because the one I had, had a far smoother sweep action than his. (The fake does have a ETA 2836 in it and it is super smooth and accurate)









This proved Four things to me:

1. The guy who had the real one may as well have had the fake for all he knew about it.

2. I'm far too honest for my own good.

3. The fake "Kermit" is actually a very good watch in its own right.

4?

Well, fourthly - I probably would not be replying in this thread if the Chinese faker had put "Alpha" on the dial instead of "Rolex".


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

seiko6139 said:


> ................
> 
> People who spend thousands on new Rolexes must have money to burn..........


Well maybe. The debate as to how much they are worth will rage throughout the ages, does the quality reflect the price and visa versa and so on.

The fact is due to clever market control or otherwise, Rolex watches prove to be an investment almost in every case. You buy a Rolex today and it will dip in value for a couple of years, a couple of 'new' price rises later and you have your money back. The years roll by and you find it starts to be worth more than you paid for it.

After looking at watches, forums, ebay and lots of other places for far too long , a Rolex watch buy is probably the smartest move you can make IMO.


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## JonW (Mar 23, 2005)

.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Couldnt agree more Jon


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Rinaldo1711 said:


> Not another replica thread....................










:lazy2:


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## thorpey69 (Feb 8, 2006)

your all wrong


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## johnbaz (Jan 30, 2005)

not watch related i know...... but, my two lads used to buy the knock-off shirts but after four or five washes, the colours really faded so they started buying the real macoy, the fakes were a tenner and lasted noi more than three or four weeks, the 'proper' ones were lasting so long that i ended up wearing them (they got fed up with them







)

not too sure if this is the case with watches as i've never had enough money to waste...err sorry to spend on the top end watches









john









ps, not to say that, if i won the lotto this weekend, i wouldn't have a massive collection of panny's, rolex and all manner of high end horological gems


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## buktimah (Nov 14, 2007)

potz you sum it up on branded stuff.

Many products out there don't deserve the price tag but people are willing due to branding. That is why good marketing is important. Not all buyers are smart people or majority aren't smart.

In this forum, I hope to see people advising on what is value for money buy


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

If you like it and you want it and you can afford it and it makes you feel good then *it is* good value. The residual value, perceived value, RRP and actual cost value do not mean diddly squat!

PS Alpha's are fakes


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Aaah, but are they *GOOD* fakes?


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

I nearly forgot, I have this, given to me by a kind forum member who ( I think, I can't remember) felt uncomfortable with it.










No, the cyclops is not askew







, the build quality is surprsingly good, as good as an Alpha Mel, which is not in the least bit surprising to me really, considering my suspicions.  I don't know what is cost but I reckon the strap I bought from RLT cost more which makes the watch astounding "value for money".

But.....it's a fake and it gives me no pleasure. A Rolex Â£2k Explorer would give me a hell of a lot of pleasure and I would consider the Rolex to be good value for money too.


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## synchro (Sep 22, 2006)

I'm sure I have seen the real version of this thread somewhere before, is this one a fake or a homage and should we be using it ?


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

MarkF said:


> If you like it and you want it and you can afford it and it makes you feel good then *it is* good value. The residual value, perceived value, RRP and actual cost value do not mean diddly squat!


Good point Mark











> PS Alpha's are fakes


Oh no they`re not











MarkF said:


> I nearly forgot, I have this, given to me by a kind forum member who ( I think, I can't remember) felt uncomfortable with it.


Maybe someone who doesn`t like fakes who`d been sent it instead of the actual genuine Seagull he`d won on ebay


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

At first glance the fake and the Roly look identical, if you start to study them only the hands are too long/short and the logo is a little "blobby". The watch itself is as well put together as other Citizen/Richo day/dates that I have owned.

In fact, the fake has made me appreciate just what a lovely design the wach is and I'd like a Rolex please.

A real one not an Alpha one.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

MarkF said:


> At first glance the fake and the Roly look identical, if you start to study them only the hands are too long/short and the logo is a little "blobby". The watch itself is as well put together as other Citizen/Richo day/dates that I have owned.
> 
> In fact, the fake has made me appreciate just what a lovely design the wach is and I'd like a Rolex please.
> 
> A real one not an Alpha one.


I got this one to replace your Fakex and have to say the quality of the Alpa is much better


















BTW I have seen the original of this and nice though it was I wouldn`t pay the asking price for one


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

if then alphas are fakes how come they are allowed to be sold in the sales forum and roy is looking into selling them ?

i own a couple of fakes. i know now that they are fakes and if i was allowed to show them on the forum 2 out of the 3 would be obvious the one that fooled me was my mont blanc it was bought for me by my ex who did alot of travelling and had alot of money so had no reason to doubt her ,but it is so nice and not everyone knows that mont blanc make watches they are associated with pens really that i still wear it .if questioned on it i say exactly what it is .

end of the day im not trying to pass it off as anything other than a nice dress watch -if i was trying to sell it in the sales forum or on the bay then youd have something to shout about .

after all it comes down to personal taste and finances end of the day - i like my alphas ,pannie hommages .just wish there could be some other topics sometime to discuss i think this one has been discussed to death.move on.


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

jaslfc5 said:


> move on.


?







But you started off by asking this question. So I'll answer it











jaslfc5 said:


> if then alphas are fakes how come they are allowed to be sold in the sales forum and roy is looking into selling them ?


I think they are fakes, that is my opinon, whether or not my opinion is right, is another matter. IMO, a blatant rip-off design is not saved from being a fake by the simple additon of a few letters on the face instead of "Rolex"/"Panerai"/"Omega", take your pick.


----------



## andythebrave (Sep 6, 2005)

Wowee, there's an awful lot to take in here.

Can we draw a line under the subject with something along these lines?

If you like the looks, quality, price and how it makes you feel - buy it and be happy.

If you don't - don't.

And respect everyone else's right to like what they like and believe what they believe.


----------



## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

MarkF said:


> jaslfc5 said:
> 
> 
> > move on.
> ...


nobody is doubting youre opinion and basically it is what this thread and all the others along the same lines are about ,it all comes down to youre opinion if you dont like fakes etc dont buy em if you do wear em .sooner or later all these fake homage threads turn into the same thing how rightious or unrightious it is to wear or own anything fake or slightly snide . i personally couldnt give a flying [email protected] if you wear a real rolex or a fake, dress in armani or asda as long as it looks good and makes you happy you can do what ever the hell you like.


----------



## ESL (Jan 27, 2004)

Getting back to the "quality" question:

The one I have has a stainless case and bracelet; polish, brushing, fit and finish are as good as I have seen in the lower to middle range watch market (up to Â£500 +). It has a Swiss ETA 2839 in it (a real one too, not a clone). Timekeeping is pretty much spot on and betters some other mechanicals I have owned.

But quality - is it a quality watch?

Â£50 worth of quality - no question it is.

Â£100 worth? - Absolutely.

Â£150 worth? - Probably.

Â£200 worth? - Getting borderline. There are many "real" watches with pukka, quality mechanical movements at this price point.

Good as a the real Rolex is tries to copy? - Don't be silly, of course it isn't. It's a cheap far eastern fake.

But if you want to compare it on the basis of them both being a mechanical watch, with tried and trusted Swiss movements in them - there is not a whole lot in it.

Do I condone fakes?

Who gives a toss what I think?


----------



## mjolnir (Jan 3, 2006)

5 pages and it's starting to heat up now









I don't like fake watches. I have mentioned before that I feel like buying a watch from anywhere other than the forums is a tricky affair. While some can be spotted others are more difficult and I don't want to be caught out.

If the quality of the fakes are generally getting better then why not put their own name on the dial and sell them on their own merits. I would assume it is because whilst some will be sold as fakes at a reasonable price to a person who will wear it knowing it was fake, others will be passed off as the real thing and there is were the profit comes in. Why sell your own brand for a reasonable price when you can add Â£1k to the price tag by riding on someone elses image.

I don't really have any interest in Alphas though I personally don't believe they are fakes. They are quite obviously trading on the ideas and designs of the other companies but their own name is there on the dial. I doubt they have taken money from each other. They aren't trading in the same market.

Because of the Internet and forums like this people are better informed regarding fake watches. Has this forced fakes to be manufactured to a higher standard in order to continue to slip through the net or has the technology just developed to the point where it is easier to make a better fake?


----------



## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

does it matter? its all reletive isn't it?


----------



## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

as for quality if youre in the market for these watches it can be very hit and miss , personally i dont trust alphas to last that long and maybe wont buy another. both straps on my remaining 2 have broken and are becoming very eratic when running. my pannie hommages though are both well made but out of the 2 the recent one i bought from a souk in morrocco is a much better watch than the one i bought on this sales forum.

my out and out fakes the rolex is bombproof and only comes out when i play poker with one of my mates he has a few real ones and it winds him up

i have a tag which looks like it belongs to a 70's bingo hall owner and has never been worn .

and the mont blanc is a stunner and looks good with a suit and i very rarely wear suits.


----------



## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

jaslfc5 said:


> MarkF said:
> 
> 
> > jaslfc5 said:
> ...


Of course they are, and good luck to them.







My opinion over the years when this thread pops up has always been consistent, close copy/homages to me, are fakes, but that there is nothing wrong with wanting/owning/wearing one.


----------



## rhaythorne (Jan 12, 2004)

I couldn't give a fake!


----------



## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

rhaythorne said:


> I couldn't give a fake!


ba boom!


----------



## Running_man (Dec 2, 2005)

MarkF said:


> Of course they are, and good luck to them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have an Ollech & Wajs M4. Personally, I think it's an excellent Swiss watch in it's own right that has a passing resemblance to a sub and yet many see it as a homage watch. Given your above premise, how far would you say something has to go before it becomes too much of a likeness? It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to be arsey or anything!









A.


----------



## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

Running_man said:


> MarkF said:
> 
> 
> > Of course they are, and good luck to them.
> ...


I have an O&W "M" too, said Mark, trying not to box himself in.







But it's been modded to avoid any "fake" interpretations.







Andy I am thinking of things like the Alpha "Speedy" and the Alpha "Planet Ocean", they are a step too far to to be able to claim that they are not blatant copies/fakes IMO. Somebody recently posted the pics of the Omega and Alpha together and that spoke volumes.

TBH I don't get the snobbery involved. From people who look down on Alpha's and from Alpha owners who look down on "honest" fakes







It baffles me.


----------



## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Well to-day I added to my Alpha "sub" with an Explorer from a fellow forum member (thanks Sparky), and again I have to say it's a deal of watch for the money. I suppose this is the crunch of the thing for me personally. (the tight Scotsman - but that's another story







)

I'm not ever likely to be able to afford a real "anything" new (well I'm a poor pensioner), but I say again. I'm impressed so far with the quality of the Alpha range. Yeah, so it may only last a few years, but show me the twenty quid watch of any make that's likely to do much better? or better still, tell me about it, and I'll buy one. Don't include quartzes in that, 'cos they don't have real hearts, just 'tronics inside. Even the ubiquitous Timex can cost more than that nowadays, and they've all got pacemaker hearts!









"Send me your poor and starving - - -"

translates to :-

"Send me your Alphas, and Shanghai's, your HMT's and Timex, your Alba's and Samson's (maybe not, haven't seen one I like yet) and I will give them a good home in the Chav watch case!"

I like them for themselves, new, old, Chinese, Russian, manual, auto, whatever, "affordables" is the name of the game







and "everydays" are the people's watches! Collectors of the world unite - - {maybe that's a bit far, tablets please Dear?)

Anyway, I love 'em all!


----------



## gallch (Jan 7, 2007)

I was going to post some incisive contribution here but my 14 year old daughter just came in, saw what I was doing and said "watch nerd" and went out again so now I shan't. So there.


----------



## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

MarkF said:


> TBH I don't get the snobbery involved. From people who look down on Alpha's and from Alpha owners who look down on "honest" fakes
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Rolex: (In bowler hat, black jacket and pinstriped trousers) I look down on him (Indicates Alpha) because I am upper-class.

Alpha: (Pork-pie hat and raincoat) I look up to him (Rolex) because he is upper-class; but I look down on him (Fakelex) because he is lower-class. I am middle-class

Fakelex: (Cloth cap and muffler) I know my place. I look up to them both. But I don't look up to him (Alpha) as much as I look up to him (Rolex), because he has got innate breeding.

Alpha: We all know our place, but what do we get out of it?

Rolex: I get a feeling of superiority over them.

Alpha: I get a feeling of inferiority from him, (Rolex), but a feeling of superiority over him (Fakelex).

Fakelex: I get a pain in the back of my neck.


----------



## buktimah (Nov 14, 2007)

I just can't control myself and have to join in the fun. I hope it is a constructive contribution from me. Fakes are not right simply they 'stole' other people design and 'ride' on other people marketing cost.

As pointed out, if people who produce fakes and they are of good quality, they should instead produce their own branding stuff. As a buyer, I can't imagine paying above US$300 for a fake and feel uncomfortable wearing it no matter how real the fake can be.

I don't own any Alphas but from the forum, it seems they produced decent watches. My opinion is they should create they own design not copying whatever available. Of course, many of the watches in the market look similar. RLT is a good example of having its own watches under a new brand.

As to the question of is the Rolex over priced? Just let those who willingly pay top dollars for brand which is helping the economy and advertising people.


----------



## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Mac,

The pain I get is in a more southerly area altogether.









Some people get wound up at the talk of such things, egged on by the usual culprits of course.









Some people love others to play their game, but get bent out of shape if the don't, or if they do. It doesn't seem to matter.









There's no way to win, but sometimes the dead take a long time to lay down, their opinions just won't give up.









Frankly, I don't care what anyone wears on their wrist, it could be a ferrite ring for all I care.

Just don't try to flog fakes as the real thing on this forum whilst I'm here (not directed at Mac, of course). 

Not that anyone will, but others just love to stir up the pile don't they?


----------



## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

Stan said:


> Not that anyone will, but others just love to stir up the pile don't they?


A frank and interesting exchange of views is all that I see, but you "see" all sorts.

Different views are what make any forum interesting.


----------



## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Agree with every word there Mark


----------



## synchro (Sep 22, 2006)

Going over the same ground time and again, replicas, quartz/mech and all the other topics that get dragged up over and over is what makes a forum

boring


----------



## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

mrteatime said:


> does it matter? its all reletive isn't it?


A good point Shawn


----------



## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

synchro said:


> Going over the same ground time and again, replicas, quartz/mech and all the other topics that get dragged up over and over is what makes a forum
> 
> boring


You forgot to say, in your opinion







after all it's 6 pages long and was 4 or 5 before I stuck my nose in.


----------



## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

synchro said:


> Going over the same ground time and again, replicas, quartz/mech and all the other topics that get dragged up over and over is what makes a forum
> 
> boring


What's boring is reading that!!!


----------



## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

MarkF said:


> Stan said:
> 
> 
> > Not that anyone will, but others just love to stir up the pile don't they?
> ...


Agreed, but it would be nice to see a wider diversity of members posting their views too.







Then we may see "more" sorts.


----------



## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Griff said:


> synchro said:
> 
> 
> > Going over the same ground time and again, replicas, quartz/mech and all the other topics that get dragged up over and over is what makes a forum
> ...


And he's still entitled to his opinion.


----------



## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

I agree that it is OK to agree and OK to disagree but boring to say it is boring. 









I don't agree with subtle pin pointing of some with firm views or anything like that, and we can all do without it!!


----------



## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

All opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others.


----------



## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Stan said:


> All opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others.


Anyone who has worked knows that is very true and dont need it telling 

The reality is that all opinions are not equal but should be unless you are agreeing, but then if you are not agreeing is it still equal, or less equal.

If a boss says his opinion is more equal than the employees, and the employees disagree, the employees say they dont agree and there should be a consultation or discussion to agree. The boss agrees and then there is a meeting and a discussion, and the boss says that following the meeting and discussion that was agreed, the outcome is that as the boss's opinion is more equal than the others they are not equal at all.

The boss's opinion though may not be correct to be more equal, so the employees agree to disagree and agree on a higher opinion which may agree with one and not the other or not agree to either, in which case an independent body is asked to agree or disagree and say what should be agreed with or disagreed with.

The best idea is to disagree with anything that is boring but only if you agree it is boring.

The real problem is that some opinions are self agreeing and in expectation of wider agreement, but the truth is that perceived agreement is often a wrong opinion and should be disagreed with.

There you are................simple really................don't you agree!!


----------



## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

potz said:


> Oink to that.


----------



## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)




----------



## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

Griff said:


> The real problem is that some opinions are self agreeing and in expectation of wider agreement,


Profound Griff! deep even


----------



## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

Griff said:


> Stan said:
> 
> 
> > All opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others.
> ...


Well I sort of agree, but a bosses/ workers comparison doesn't really work in this context.

In that environment it's not all about opinions because people have responsibilities and make decisions based on all three. Some opinions end up in impositions much to the annoyance of those holding different opinions.

In this environment we don't have to make decisions and we don't even have to agree on the facts. We just have opinions and we agree with some and not with others. It's interesting to read others opinions, though I can't say they have ever changed mine.


----------



## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Relax kid. Just a bit of tongue twisting banter to match some more equal opinions than others, and some opinions are fake or homage anyway!!!






























p.s.

I think someone should do a homage to this:-


----------



## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

Griff said:


> Relax kid. Just a bit of tongue twisting banter.........


I know, I was just joining in  It was starting to sound like something out of Yes Minister.


----------



## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Griff said:


> Stan said:
> 
> 
> > All opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others.
> ...


Partially, but not about that disgusting Red watch.


----------



## andythebrave (Sep 6, 2005)

Noooooooo.

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, not around the eyes, into my eyes. The red watch is beautiful.

123 and you're back in the room.


----------



## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Griff said:


> Stan said:
> 
> 
> > All opinions are equal, but some are more equal than others.
> ...


Aouw! My head hurts























*Nurse!* *TABLETS!* *NOW!*

PS, is there an Alpha version of the red watch?


----------



## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

mel said:


> PS, is there an Alpha version of the red watch?


_*NOOOOO!!!!*_









*Some things are sacred you know *







:notworthy:







:notworthy:







:notworthy:







:notworthy:












There can be only one!!!


----------



## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

There is only one around here Mac, and I've got it.









It's far from disgusting, I don't know what made me say that. Unless is was a "banter" overload?


----------



## SharkBike (Apr 15, 2005)

The Rekord is a classic...says so right on the dial.

Just like Budweiser is the "King of Beers".


----------



## ESL (Jan 27, 2004)

SharkBike said:


> The Rekord is a classic...says so right on the dial.
> 
> Just like Budweiser is the "King of Beers".


Even that's a fake...


----------



## SharkBike (Apr 15, 2005)

ESL said:


> SharkBike said:
> 
> 
> > The Rekord is a classic...says so right on the dial.
> ...


...and a lousy one...tastes like piss unless it's near freezing.


----------



## hippo (Jun 27, 2006)

ESL said:


> SharkBike said:
> 
> 
> > The Rekord is a classic...says so right on the dial.
> ...


Homage, surely


----------



## SharkBike (Apr 15, 2005)

potz said:


> SharkBike said:
> 
> 
> > ESL said:
> ...


My fridge is currently stocked with Samuel Adams (a very fine American brew), some Blue Moons (a very nice American wheat beer), and a fresh 12-pak of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale from California. There's been quite an extraordinary growth in quality beers here in the last ten years or so. But, I always keep a number of Newcastle Brown Ales and Pilsner Urquells in stock too...expensive here, but worth it.

I remember last time I was in the U.K. all the young people were drinking Bud bottles...still can't figure that one.

Damn, I'm frickin' thirsty now.


----------



## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Bloody hell anyone who has a few bottles of dog in the fridge can be a friend of mine! I didn't know it travelled over there!


----------



## grahamr (Jun 25, 2007)

Hmmmm,

This thread has all gone a bit Pete Tong,









In the name of Jesus,Joseph and all things christmassy,

Let's lay it to rest....

Regards,

Graham.


----------



## SharkBike (Apr 15, 2005)

The Red Rekord can do that to a thread...it's power is awesome.









But, if it can help potz and me see eye-to-eye, then it accomplished something good, I'd say.

Funny thing is I didn't have squat to say about the original topic...still don't...but when the topic turns to beer...

A Merry Christmas to All and to All a Good Night.


----------



## thunderbolt (May 19, 2007)

Since my trip to India last year, I have now developed a healthy appetite for Cobra and Kingfisher beers. Very nice they are too.


----------



## tertius (Jan 30, 2007)

SharkBike said:


> My fridge is currently stocked with Samuel Adams (a very fine American brew), some Blue Moons (a very nice American wheat beer), and a fresh 12-pak of *Sierra Nevada Pale Ale* from California. There's been quite an extraordinary growth in quality beers here in the last ten years or so. But, I always keep a number of Newcastle Brown Ales and Pilsner Urquells in stock too...expensive here, but worth it.
> 
> I remember last time I was in the U.K. all the young people were drinking Bud bottles...still can't figure that one.
> 
> Damn, I'm frickin' thirsty now.


Umm, Sierra Nevada - now that is a seriously good beer. Anyone who doubts the quality of American beer only needs to try one of those ... can occasionally find them over here - Waitrose sometimes stocks it.


----------



## tertius (Jan 30, 2007)

tertius said:


> SharkBike said:
> 
> 
> > My fridge is currently stocked with Samuel Adams (a very fine American brew), some Blue Moons (a very nice American wheat beer), and a fresh 12-pak of *Sierra Nevada Pale Ale* from California. There's been quite an extraordinary growth in quality beers here in the last ten years or so. But, I always keep a number of Newcastle Brown Ales and Pilsner Urquells in stock too...expensive here, but worth it.
> ...


And I meant not to post on this thread ... darn!


----------



## Fatbloke (Oct 15, 2007)

SharkBike said:


> My fridge is currently stocked with Samuel Adams (a very fine American brew), some Blue Moons (a very nice American wheat beer), and a fresh 12-pak of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale from California. There's been quite an extraordinary growth in quality beers here in the last ten years or so. But, I always keep a number of Newcastle Brown Ales and Pilsner Urquells in stock too...expensive here, but worth it.
> 
> I remember last time I was in the U.K. all the young people were drinking Bud bottles...still can't figure that one.
> 
> Damn, I'm frickin' thirsty now.


I tried samuel Adams beers in boston earlier in the year very good it was too

I tried quite a few of the beers from the local micro breweries and was pleasently surprised,especially at how cheap it was with the state of the dollar


----------



## Toshi (Aug 31, 2007)

I still have nothing to say on this thread..... but if you lot start talking about wine.......









Rich


----------



## JTW (Jun 14, 2007)

Sam Adams is an OK brew, a good cut above bud and miller but go for local microbreweriess for real quality









And Hippo, as for U.S. Bud vs Czech Budweiser, hardly a homage - more of an insult.









in my VHO

Ian


----------



## hippo (Jun 27, 2006)

JTW said:


> And Hippo, as for U.S. Bud vs Czech Budweiser, hardly a homage - more of an insult.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ian you are spot on, I was just kidding, the Czech stuff is bril, I've drunk it for breakfast sitting in the town square, just down the road from where its made, best start to a day


----------



## redmonaco (Nov 29, 2004)

VinceR said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> > But how many of us can honestly say we don't have a replica/fake/copy item of audio, video, footwear, clothing or (shhhh!) software somewhere in the house?
> ...


Have you got any pictures on your walls, prints maybe?


----------



## JTW (Jun 14, 2007)

hippo said:


> JTW said:
> 
> 
> > And Hippo, as for U.S. Bud vs Czech Budweiser, hardly a homage - more of an insult.
> ...


Czech lager is absolutely the best, even for breakfast









Ian


----------



## hippo (Jun 27, 2006)

JTW said:


> hippo said:
> 
> 
> > JTW said:
> ...


Agree 100% my Dad now lives in Prague and had to do a survey of all the lagers and beers sold out there for Czech Brewreys, tough job that was!!!


----------



## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

redmonaco said:


> VinceR said:
> 
> 
> > mel said:
> ...


That's a good point Red and I know where you are going with it.

I looked at the pictures on my walls and they are all of dead people and animals except for a couple of pictures of me and /ShortArse, plus one of Little Morton Hall I took many years ago that sold a few dozen copies.

I own all the pictures I've taken but how many of us have had our pictures stolen from our websites I wonder? Will the watch copyright zealots be as concerned about such blatant theft from lesser mortals who are not trendy corporations?

I suspect I'm beyond caring.


----------



## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Stan said:


> I own all the pictures I've taken but how many of us have had our pictures stolen from our websites I wonder? Will the watch copyright zealots be as concerned about such blatant theft from lesser mortals who are not trendy corporations?


At this very moment students around the world are ripping posters of their favourite popstar off their walls and replacing them with one of a true icon of cool


----------



## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

The Red Rekord is the new "Che" Mac?

I'm a bit surprised, although it is as Red as a Red revolutionaries backside.









I'm not making any comments about revolutionaries or socialists, they seem more fragile and irritable than they were some years ago.









Don't get me started on the gobshites, they seem to age very well and just get pleasure from being the controversial control freaks they are.

Nowt changes. 

Back to beer and pictures I think, before I get accused of being unmutual or something.


----------



## langtoftlad (Mar 31, 2007)

What I want to know is how similar in design does a watch have to be to be considered a copy?

I understand fakes - a product labeled to pretend it is something that it is not.

but copies...?

Everyone seems to accept that Alpha's are (blatant) copies.

but where is the line that turns a 'copy' into an 'inspired by' or a 'homage' to...

Is it purely personal choice which is why there are nine pages (minus a few beery ones) of debate?


----------



## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

langtoftlad said:


> Is it purely personal choice which is why there are nine pages (minus a few beery ones) of debate?


Simple answer.. yes









Although someone is bound to disagree


----------



## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

SharkBike said:


> A Merry Christmas to All


Now steady on, it's not even December yet. What I cannot abide is the current trend to start Christmas early, makes it sort of fake really.


----------



## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

langtoftlad said:


> I understand fakes - a product labeled to pretend it is something that it is not.
> 
> but copies...?
> 
> ...


The line is wherever, in your opinion, it has been crossed







IMO some Alpha models are well offside, if the Alpha Speedy, Planet Ocean, Exploer GMT etc etc are not pretending to be something else what are they then? The car equivalent is the Toyota MR2 with a GRP Ferrari body kit and at least they have the honesty to be described as replicas.

Beer, I don't like any pump lager, especially Stella which makes my head hurt. I don't like beer which has no taste, Budweiser, Corona etc. I do like, a lot, Leffe and Duvel.

Christmas, I am ready for it, this is my last week working until mid-January.


----------



## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

I think the thread has a bitter drinker in it somewhere, but the best beer I ever had was when I worked at a teacher training college, and we got a bunch of students to make some real home made beer not from a kit, but from the real ingredients, right from scratch, and follow proper brewing techniques. The result was bloody cracking, and I actually got pissed on it.

I used to prefer the old Chesters mild, and brews like Marstons, Holts, Oldham Brewery, Robinsons, and Tetley and Boddingtons *as it used to be*


----------



## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

There are plenty of beer bags about.

Some of these tarts even drink pints of lager!!


----------



## gallch (Jan 7, 2007)

thunderbolt said:


> Since my trip to India last year, I have now developed a healthy appetite for Cobra and Kingfisher beers. Very nice they are too.


If you drink Kingfisher in the UK, it's a replica of an Indian lager - it's brewed under licence by Shepherd Neame.....


----------



## gallch (Jan 7, 2007)

potz said:


> gallch said:
> 
> 
> > thunderbolt said:
> ...


Agreed re Bud. But I didn't say brewing under licence produces fakes, I said replica. Maybe not very good replicas. Is it the water ?

Btw why does Speckled Hen taste completely different out of a bottle than on the handpump ? Is it pasteurised for bottling and live when in barrels ?


----------



## JTW (Jun 14, 2007)

gallch said:


> Btw why does Speckled Hen taste completely different out of a bottle than on the handpump ? Is it pasteurised for bottling and live when in barrels ?


Got it in one, bottle conditioned beer is a real ale, old speckled hen is not bottled conditioned.

If you want to try some, Worthington White Shield, Brakspears Live Organic and Hop back Summer Lightning are all fairly widely available, Youngs also do a couple and there are of course many more from smaller breweries.

Well worth the effort of seeking out if you haven't already tried them

Ian


----------



## blackandgolduk (Apr 25, 2005)

JTW said:


> Summer Lightning


Lovely stuff - got hammered on this over the summer when an afternoon drink







'ran-over' so to speak! It's got a fair old kick to it, I can tell you...


----------



## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

What's the beer with an embossed cat (or was it a goblin) on the brown bottle? Somebody recommended it last year but I've forgotten, I forgot everything after a night on that stuff.


----------



## Amphibimoose (Oct 30, 2007)

Funny how a thread about replica watches can turn into a conversation about replica beer...

Also funny that I have exhausted my supplies as I read this.


----------



## JTW (Jun 14, 2007)

MarkF said:


> What's the beer with an embossed cat (or was it a goblin) on the brown bottle? Somebody recommended it last year but I've forgotten, I forgot everything after a night on that stuff.


Was it Robinsons Old Tom? 8.5% ABV, a great memory eraser


----------



## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

JTW said:


> MarkF said:
> 
> 
> > What's the beer with an embossed cat (or was it a goblin) on the brown bottle? Somebody recommended it last year but I've forgotten, I forgot everything after a night on that stuff.
> ...


That's the one, thanks. That stuff was really smooth and er, strong. I have had a cold for a few days (Told Carolyn it was probably bird flue) but now feel able to drink again







I will go and buy some shortly, Asda has it if I remember, or was it Sainsbury's.


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## pugster (Nov 22, 2004)

hobgoblin ? -wychwood brewerys

hobgoblin


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

pugster said:


> hobgoblin ? -wychwood brewerys


You are too late







I must have just been "seeing" goblins after too much Old Tom.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

I once many years ago had Old Tom served from an old rum barrel

Everyone was drinking it in half pint glasses.

After 5 pints of it I found out why.

I dont remember getting home and I shudder to this day at what I might have done..........something about snogging a bride just married in her wedding dress!!!!


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## kay (Dec 2, 2007)

VinceR said:


> Replica's are just wrong


AGREE


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## thunderbolt (May 19, 2007)

gallch said:


> thunderbolt said:
> 
> 
> > Since my trip to India last year, I have now developed a healthy appetite for Cobra and Kingfisher beers. Very nice they are too.
> ...


I know, a damn shame as the genuine is very smooth and tasty. Is the U.K. brewed Kingfisher classed as "replica or homage" beer?







That's why I now drink Cobra. At least that's imported.


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## SharkBike (Apr 15, 2005)

Had quite a few Red Stripes last night...but not bad for a beer from Jamaica.


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## SharkBike (Apr 15, 2005)

Had quite a few Red Stripes last night...not bad for a beer from Jamaica.


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

potz said:


> gallch said:
> 
> 
> > thunderbolt said:
> ...


I thought Becks make much of the fact that it is only ever brewed in Bremen, so the UK version and the German one should be the same.


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

potz said:


> Even though on cans and bottles it always says something about being brewed in Bremen it has actually been brewed under license for many years in the following countries: Namibia, which prior to World War I was a German colony, Bulgaria, Australia, Ukraine, Serbia, Montenegro, China, Nigeria, Romania, Turkey and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
> 
> I was sure it is also brewed in the UK, but maybe the different taste is due to different brews for different export markets. Much like cigarettes tasting differently in different countries.


Fair enough, you know much more about it than me.

When I've been over to Germany I have avoided the UK available brands and enjoyed trying the local stuff, lovely.


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## seikology (Dec 4, 2006)

so whats the difference then between a 'replica' and a 'homage'? is there one?


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Depends on your point of view and which forums you go on.....


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

*No...........it isn't!!*









A fake is a watch made to look *exactly* like the original, with the original name on the dial etc.

A homage is done to look like an original in style and appearance, but not with the original name on the dial, but with a name of the maker that did the homage, and also in a way that identifies it as *not* being a fake/copy of the original.

An RLT 69 for example, could be described as a homage to an Omega 53 or Smiths military watch, but in no way a fake of either.

The fake is also a blatant attempt to look like the original even in a way to deliberately deceive. A homage is not like that!

I would not consider therefore a homage as being anything like a fake


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

Griff said:


> *No...........it isn't!!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What he said.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

I agree with most of what you say Griff...However.



> The fake is also a blatant attempt to look like the original even in a way to deliberately deceive. A homage is not like that!
> 
> I would not consider therefore a homage as being anything like a fake


A homage is also a blatant attempt to look like the original, I dont see how you can say its not!!

The Alphas, Yaos, RLT69s, PRS etc all try to look like watches that have been made before...

Im not saying they are fakes in the strict definition of the word, but they definitely copy heavily the original, some more accuratly than others...


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## Amphibimoose (Oct 30, 2007)

50% of the watches I work on during the week are Bali "Knock Offs", stupid little VERY poor quality "watches" with an ISA or cheap SII movement in them, that have ROLEX stamped on the dial. They vaguely mirror the looks of the brand and fall very very short when it comes to quality.

But people love them... I had a customer spend $100 repairing a 5$ ugly as hell knock off the other week with a new band, crystal, clean up and service. Its amazing...

IMO (and experience) Replica watches are usually generally well made, pretty true to the original, have well made cases and Swiss movements, not immediately identifiable and will probably last.

A copy or fake will look vaguely like the original, and contain a very poor movement, are very easy to spot, even with your eyes closed.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

There is nothing wrong with making a homage to capture the style of an older vintage watch if it is done as I said; and not in a way to deceive as being an original with the original name on the dial. It is clear then that you are getting a homage, that you know it is not a fake, and not made in a way to deceive.

There is therefore a big difference between a homage and a fake, and it is *not* easy to confuse the two.


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## andythebrave (Sep 6, 2005)

I have to admit that I am in total agreement with Griff on this one.

After all, where do we draw the line, all watches need to display the time in some way, normally by the use of hands pointing to marking on a dial surrounded by some sort of case on something to secure the whole assemblage to ones wrist. If a design has been proven over time (sic) to be 'the best' then it is not surprising if a load of manufactureres use it to at least some extent.

This is not just in the horology field of course, look at Weetabix v Stores own brand, Binoculars (2 main types), - identical as far as I can see with basically only a makers name/brand being different.

As long as copyright does not apply to the design of a watch then there is absolutely nothing wrong at all with copying the design.

It's down to the buyer to decide what they want, some will only buy the Weetabix because of brand loyalty and/or perceived but possibly mistaken belief of greater quality just as some will buy the Rolex because of its perceived greater quality, exclusivity and/or brag value whereas others will quite happily, and just as correctly, go for the O&W or Grovana or even the Alpha. Whatever suits and good luck to them all.

Also, I seem to recall that the Rolex has been deemed to be a homage or replica of a Blancpain....

But fakes? Grrrrrrrrrrr.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Griff said:


> There is nothing wrong with making a homage to capture the style of an older vintage watch if it is done as I said; and not in a way to deceive as being an original with the original name on the dial. It is clear then that you are getting a homage, that you know it is not a fake, and not made in a way to deceive.
> 
> There is therefore a big difference between a homage and a fake, and it is *not* easy to confuse the two.


Again I agree with you on that one....

But do you disagree with this comment?



> A homage is also a blatant attempt to look like the original


Just looking for a yes or no


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

There is a similar tread on another forum and someone on there summed it up for me :



> Something that is a blatant/ near identical copy with just the brand name missing or changed seems too much to me. Shades of grey I guess...


But, each to there own, if you like it buy it, I dont really care, its just not for me


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

NO!

And it isn't the right question.

*Blatant attempt *suggests a deception. I'd have used *attempt to recapture* as in style of


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

''Blatent attempt'' may suggest deception to you but not to me









Some of the Homages 'attempts' at recapturing are amazing









And Im sorry if its not the right question, shall I run my questions past you before I ask them in future Griff??


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

You seriously dont think that ''*A homage is also a blatant attempt to look like the original*'


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

> ''Blatent attempt'' may suggest deception to you but not to me
> 
> Some of the Homages 'attempts' at recapturing are amazing
> 
> And Im sorry if its not the right question, shall I run my questions past you before I ask them in future Griff??


Blat*a*nt 

You may if you wish, but I'd rather you didn't.

In short however.........I see absolutely nothing wrong with a good homage and I welcome the opportunity to get a new watch in the old style of a favourite vintage like a Smiths.

Fakes are fakes and I dislike them enough to think of my lump hammer


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

jasonm said:


> You seriously dont think that ''*A homage is also a blatant attempt to look like the original*'


Ha ha

Not a good parallel.

That is IMO not a homage, but an attempt to copy a modern watch, which suggests to me you have totally missed the spirit of the meaning of homage.

A homage is done to recapture the style of an older and usually vintage watch, and often of a military piece no longer made.

The Apha you show in an attempt to further your argument is a modern copy of a modern watch, and tatty by its nature, and perhaps another good reason why I think Roy would be correct if he decides they are unworthy of his dealership.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

jasonm said:


> You seriously dont think that ''*A homage is also a blatant attempt to look like the original*'


There are at least seven differences between the Omega & Alpha although I admit four are not visible in these photos

1) Dial logo & script

2) The amount of lume on the hands ie the Alpha only has it on the tips

3) The colour of the date wheel

4) The shape of the bezel grips

5) No helium valve on the Alpha

6) The crown logo

7) The caseback script

IMO for a watch to be a true fake all these things, in particular the dial logo/script would be identical.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

All this has done is show that we all interpret words differently...

One mans Homage is another mans copy etc etc....

You have in your own mind ( again) narrowed down definitions to suit you ''*A homage is done to recapture the style of an older and usually vintage watch, and often of a military piece no longer made.''*

You've just written your definition to suit your argument!!!









That to me is no argument at all.....


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> jasonm said:
> 
> 
> > You seriously dont think that ''*A homage is also a blatant attempt to look like the original*'
> ...


Your right Mac, its not a fake at all, thats my point.....

But, I do maintain, despite Griffs strange logic, that is is a blatent attempt to look like a Omega Planet Ocean......

How can that be argued against?


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

jasonm said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> > jasonm said:
> ...


You`ll get no arguement from me on that point Jase


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

jasonm said:


> All this has done is show that we all interpret words differently...
> 
> One mans Homage is another mans copy etc etc....
> 
> ...


I really don't care what you think.

I have said what I think, and some at least seem to agree with me.

I have no further desire to argue the point with you, and think it a waste of time to do so


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

OK Griff...

Peace mate 

Sorry, cant resist....No ones agreed with you since you made your definitions clear









No, in fact thinking about it, the Alpha is just as a legitimate homage as anything else, just because there are more 'mil' looking homages of vintage watches out there doesnt separate them from each other in my eyes, they are all homages.....


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

jasonm said:


> OK Griff...
> 
> Peace mate
> 
> ...


























Last comment.

If you're happy in that belief, feel free to believe it!!


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> There are at least seven differences between the Omega & Alpha although I admit four are not visible in these photos
> 
> 1) Dial logo & script
> 
> ...


"5) No helium valve on the Alpha!









Looks like a *blatant* attempt to *copy* IMO, only stopped from being identical by cost restraints.

BTW Mac, I tried on a Longines Heritage Conquest in York yesterday and it really suited me.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

And you missed buying my Chrono version of that at a great price.

Maybe Jason could offer you a homage!!??


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

And you missed buying my Chrono version of that at a great price.

Maybe Jason could offer you a homage, or a blatant copy, or a fake, or an Alpha lookalike!!??


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Echo that!!!


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

Griff said:


> And you missed buying my Chrono version of that at a great price.
> 
> Maybe Jason could offer you a homage, or a blatant copy, or a fake, or an Alpha lookalike!!??


Just out of interest, are the wathes the same diameter. Yours was a lovely watch Griff but I have only bought two chrono's in my life an won't be buying a third.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Why does this thread give me Reja Vu? (the feeling that I will be here again)


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

The non chrono was only 35mm ex crown, and the chrono like mine was 39mm ex crown.

I doubt I will buy another chrono myself, and rely on a Casio for any chrono task I may rarely have.

Chronos are much more likely to leak also IMO


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Why does this thread give me Reja Vu? (the feeling that I will be here again)


Dont know and who cares!!


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## Stan (Aug 7, 2003)

Me.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)




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## Robert (Jul 26, 2006)

Just to confuse matters :-

replica - 1824, from It. replica "copy, repetition, reply," from L. replicare "to repeat" (see reply). Properly, a copy of a work of art made by the original artist.

So replica can be ruled out as it is a copy or reproduction of a work of art produced by the maker of the original or under his or her supervision. Only Omega can make a replica of an Omega.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Well, if you want to play it that way, when is it a clone, and does it matter who clones it!!!???















:lol:


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## Robert (Jul 26, 2006)

Ignoring the biology definition, a clone is a person or thing that duplicates, imitates, or closely resembles another in appearance, function, performance, or style. So a clone could be a replica, fake, copy or homage


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## SharkBike (Apr 15, 2005)

I'll drink to that too. Thanks potz.

Speaking of clones, if you clone yourself, then have sex with the clone, does that make you gay?


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## SharkBike (Apr 15, 2005)

Talk about a blatant attempt to look like the original.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

I like the SAFE FUN EASY logo









I can't believe if I attempted it on the 710 she would see it as either easy or fun and if I attempted it on someone else it certainly wouldn't be safe esp if the 710 found out


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

Some of the watches round here look more like dopplegangers anyway!!














:lol:


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