# Weird Car Issue.



## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Folks,

I bought a beautiful Kia Rio estate, 53 plate with 65,000 miles for Â£200 (gorgeous, isn't she! :lol: )










Anyhow, I've replaced the front brakes, and given the bodywork some attention, but other than that, it's in good nick. It's due a timing belt replacement (at 65K), which I'll get done shortly.

Now, here's the issue; it has only been doing 2 or 3 mile journeys since I bought it a couple of months ago, so thought I'd give it a good run the other day. I gave it maybe 30 miles with the heavy foot and brought it back.

Next time I started it, the engine management light was on, and the engine was very noisy (sounded like tappets), it was also a bit rough to drive.

I searched the Kia forums and a suggestion was to disconnect the battery for half an hour. I did so, and hay presto, engine management light off and engine running normally.

Does anyone know what on earth is going on? I can't get any further research wise online.

As far as I know fromt he previous owner, he noticed the light went on once in the past, but went off again after a few miles.

Cheers


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## JoT (Aug 12, 2003)

These days cars a a mystery ... gone are the days of plugs, points, timing, carburettor 

It will be interesting to get PG's view when he takes a pause in his DIY but isn't the engine management system a computer, so I suppose an occasional re-boot might be necessary


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Cheers John, judging by the 'technology' in the rest of the car (wind up windows, tape player....yes, a bloody tape player!) I expect to find one of these at the end of the cable...


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## tall_tim (Jul 29, 2009)

I might be way off track but my my last lease car (grande punto sporting) would behave strangely when going from one kind of driving (day to day use) to long journey or whatever. I used to reboot by taking the battery lead off and it would then be fine. I think the ems 'learns' your driving style and so the engine etc is tuned for that type of driving. When you do something completely different, I suppose some cars may get confused. Especially the less expensive end of the Market - fiat, KIA and so on.


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## Who. Me? (Jan 12, 2007)

scottishcammy said:


> Cheers John, judging by the 'technology' in the rest of the car (wind up windows, tape player....yes, a bloody tape player!) I expect to find one of these at the end of the cable...


That would explain the tape player.

Google, you get lucky and find the Poke command that solves your problem (or takes you straight to the supernova in Elite).


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Â£200 !!!! I'm surprised it went a whole 30 miles :lol: :lol:

The battery trick sometimes works but most garages will have some sort of diagnostic equipment these days, a simple plug in, it reads the fault codes and hopefully point you in the right direction.

Here's a link to something about it.

http://www.kia-forums.com/do-yourself/33370-all-kia-trouble-codes.html


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## minkle (Mar 17, 2008)

Â£200! I know its a piece of **** but thats a lot of car for the money, should make a great workhorse. Do the front wheels lift off the ground when the dogs in it?


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

minkle said:


> Â£200! I know its a piece of **** but thats a lot of car for the money, should make a great workhorse. Do the front wheels lift off the ground when the dogs in it?


The boot lid won't close with him in it  He gets a seat in the front:










Sounds like a reasonable idea about the difference in driving.

You're right about it being good for the money, they're going for four or five times that on Ebay.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Tut tut - dog not wearing seat belt! Points on the dog licence that! :lol:

(Mind you, if he doesn't want to wear a seat belt, I wouldn't be the one to try and force him to! msl: )


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

The problem is likely some horrible electronic thing. That being said, check the air filter and the spark plugs. if the plugs show anything at all replace them (they are cheap anyway). Here in Canada, diagnostic scan tools are quite cheap ($60-$70), one of these will reveal all of the engine management codes, often you end up paying that much to have a shop do it for you. Anyway start with the simplest things, air filter, fuel filter and plugs. 

Later,

William


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## Philz (Oct 20, 2009)

So many sensors on the engine can trigger the EML If it has reset and no further shows nothing to worry about really.


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Cheers chaps. Noticed there was some yellowish sludge on the inside of the oil cap (the oil itself is black), so I assume it's probably only ever been getting used for short trips. I don't think it's the head gasket, the coolant hasn't gone down and nothing else seems amiss. I'll change the engine oil/filter and take it for a good run.

Fingers crossed!


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## tixntox (Jul 17, 2009)

The Rios' were very cheap at one point, so were bought by low mileage users (elderly folks mainly) and short trips are not good for motors. When you have an oil change, use a flush additive before the change. Your "thrash" may have dislodged the carbon build up onto the sensors causing the faulty reading. The car goes int "limp" mode until reset.

Mike


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Cars get "used" to how they are used, everyone thinks it's a good thing buying a "one elderly lady owner" car and then can't understand why it begins to fall apart as soon as you start thrashing it. Engines in particular don't like a sudden change of use.

EML's (engine management lights) are the bain of my life! Joe public think it's just a case of plugging in the computer and it will tell you exactly what's wrong and how to fix it, oh if only life was so simple! I've lost count of the times I've been to cars where EML's came on but have subsequently gone off, no fault codes stored, or no eml on and no code stored but there is an obvious fault. And it doesn't help when you get a error message along the lines of fuel trim bank 1 circuit too high! Why don't they write it in english?!

A few years ago when tesco's had the dodgy petrol we were getting loads of oxygen sensor fault codes, garages would replace the sensor only for it to not cure the fault, the fault turned out to be the wrong additive in the fuel coating the sensors, the computer was correct in that it was getting unexpected readings from the sensor, but the sensor wasn't faulty! The contamination was corrupting the readings.

It takes a good detective and some lateral logical thinking to work out exactly what's going on sometimes, was reading of a case the other day, car misfired when cold but when warm was OK, owner had taken it to 4 different garages and in turn had replaced injector, ignition coil, spark plug, coolant temp and ambient air temp sensors to no avail. all the eml kept telling them was there was a misfire on number 3! It turned out 3 years earlier the cam belt had broken (previous owner had to be contacted to find this out). number 3 inlet valve had been bent and was replaced at the rebuild. It turned out the con rod on number 3 had bent slightly during the impact but this had not been spotted, the 4mm difference in length was enough to reduce the compression when cold to give a misfire but when it warmed up it worked OK!

Getting onto your Rio (for the love of god why? :no: ) it sounds like it developed a misfire to me, perhaps your well intentioned thrash caused something to get hot and breakdown under load (coil, plug, lead (if it still has them)) or even a poor connection that when hot gave an excessively high resistance, once it had cooled down fault was gone.

Disconnecting the battery may have done a system reset on the electronic control unit (ecu) like when your PC crashes and you turn it off and turn it back on again, but this doesn't work on all cars, some need a eobd (electronic on board diagnostics) tool to do this. But that may be a red herring, it may have just fixed itself by cooling down. An eobd reader may be able to retrieve a code but not always.

General rule of thumb with all orange warning lights is like traffic lights, if the car is running OK then it's OK to drive with caution but needs to be checked out. Don't drive with a misfire as unburnt petrol could enter the cat which isn't good over a prolonged period although newer systems will turn off the injector if it detects a misfire to prevent this.

Another thing with misfires is the ecu may have turned the injector off deliberately, some systems do this when it detects overheating, a cylinder pumping air with no fuel in it will actually cool it down so injectors are turned off in turn to try and stop engine damage! It's getting really complicated out there :lol:

The sludge in your filler cap is almost certainly condensation reacting with oil fumes, a classic symptom with short journey driving especially on cars where the rocker box is above the height of the radiator as cold air rushes in and hits the rocker box and you get the cold outside warm inside scenario, anyone with central heating in their house would have experienced the condensation build up on the inside of their windows. Owners of vauxhall chevettes would know all about this, it was not uncommon to get a pint of the stuff out of the rocker box every service!


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Hi Paul, thanks for taking the time to write that reply, much appreciated. I'll keep an eye out for it, and take it for a wee run to get it hot and see what happens. What would your next step be in my shoes (apart from burning the Kia!)


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Well as your going to get the timing belt done I'd suggest while it's in get a service done, especially plugs and HT leads if it has them and ask the mechanic to check for any signs of poor connections etc, normally obvious by a build up of "fur"

Like anything from the far east they are hugely reliable, think yourself luck, you could have bought an alfa!


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

Ahh the Chevette, a perfect design! No acceleration and no braking power.  I loved tune-ups on those things. Replace everything, and then reverse centre spark plug leads and backfire the hell out of it. It would blow all of the crap out of the carb and make the car run a treat again.









Later,

William


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## tall_tim (Jul 29, 2009)

tixntox said:


> The Rios' were very cheap at one point, so were bought by low mileage users (elderly folks mainly) and short trips are not good for motors. When you have an oil change, use a flush additive before the change. Your "thrash" may have dislodged the carbon build up onto the sensors causing the faulty reading. The car goes int "limp" mode until reset.
> 
> Mike


Maybe someone can confirm one way or the other, but I was always told never to us engine flush on oil change. All it does is loosen the bits of crud that are attached to the engine, leaving them to float around and cause more damage. Better would be to flush through with a cheap oil first and then put in the good stuff.


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## Robert (Jul 26, 2006)

Wind-up windows and a tape player :rofl: Is it really likely to have an engine management system?

I hired a Ford Ka recently with wind-up windows. Caused a queue at the car park barrier.



scottishcammy said:


> It's due a timing belt replacement


Cammy, I think that's classed as an economic write-off.

Seriously, that's a lot of car for the money and not as embarrassing to drive as a VW camper van.


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

tall_tim said:


> Maybe someone can confirm one way or the other, but I was always told never to us engine flush on oil change. All it does is loosen the bits of crud that are attached to the engine, leaving them to float around and cause more damage. Better would be to flush through with a cheap oil first and then put in the good stuff.


Regular oil changes are the way to go. An engine that is in terrible shape will possibly become worse with a flush. An engine that's in good condition likely does not need a flush.

Later,

William

P.S. - Fully synthetic engine oils tend to keep engines quite clean.


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## tixntox (Jul 17, 2009)

tall_tim said:


> tixntox said:
> 
> 
> > The Rios' were very cheap at one point, so were bought by low mileage users (elderly folks mainly) and short trips are not good for motors. When you have an oil change, use a flush additive before the change. Your "thrash" may have dislodged the carbon build up onto the sensors causing the faulty reading. The car goes int "limp" mode until reset.
> ...


It loosens the bits of crud so that you can drain them out of the sump with the old oil, allowing the fresh oil to circulate properly and do its job!

Most diesels run on oil which has a "flush" detergent additive inbuilt.

Mike


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

tixntox said:


> tall_tim said:
> 
> 
> > tixntox said:
> ...


All of the multigrade automotive engine oils, made for decades now, have detergent content. We spent an inordinate amount of time covering that point at trade school. :lol:

Later,

William


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## PhilM (Nov 5, 2004)

I use to have a company car (Vectra) about 12 years ago and then engine light always used to come on daily, I took it back to the Vaxhaull garage on numerous times and they kept saying that they had to replace another sensor, so in the end I gave up and found a work around - it being, that if the light came on when I was driving, I would simply turn the engine off and restart it - Job done :thumbup:

BTW Love the pic of the hound in the passenger seat :notworthy:


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

PhilM said:


> I use to have a company car (Vectra) about 12 years ago and then engine light always used to come on daily, I took it back to the Vaxhaull garage on numerous times and they kept saying that they had to replace another sensor, so in the end I gave up and found a work around - it being, that if the light came on when I was driving, I would simply turn the engine off and restart it - Job done :thumbup:


A reasonable strategy for nag lights when drivability isn't the major problem. When I was working in the trade, I often ended up with diagnostics on the early generation of computerized fuel injected cars. All too often, it was a vehicle with sensors and/or actuators that would randomly go slightly out of spec. Combine this with corroded electrical connectors, hidden crimped wires, vacuum leaks and general engine wear, and you ended up with jobs that took forever to diagnose and repair. 

Later,

William


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

William_Wilson said:


> PhilM said:
> 
> 
> > I use to have a company car (Vectra) about 12 years ago and then engine light always used to come on daily, I took it back to the Vaxhaull garage on numerous times and they kept saying that they had to replace another sensor, so in the end I gave up and found a work around - it being, that if the light came on when I was driving, I would simply turn the engine off and restart it - Job done :thumbup:
> ...


The "fly by wire" throttle on my truck did have me scratching my head a bit when it packed in. Engine running but nothing happening when I pressed the accelerator peddle. Hood up but couldn't find what I automatically assumed to be a snapped cable. I bought a book after that :lol: :lol: And have you ever tried to get at the CPS on one of these newer Power Stokes in the end I figured you probably needed to break and twist one of your forearms at 90* to get to it. It would probably have been easier to take the engine out


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

It is possible you could have blown a load of carbon build up through the engine onto either the O2 sensor or even oiled up the MAF sensor with oil deposits in the air cleaner if the vehicle has an antiquated CAS, even a coked up EGR system would suddenly throw up an error code if the engine required more air than it has been used to getting, I would imagine your pride of Korea was just pining for its previous sedentary owner......the fine looking beast probably went into "whimp home mode".

As for the cam belt change.....might be worth for the Â£200 investment in Koreas finest just running the thing until it goes ping.....might last another 65K.....and theres always PG if you get stranded :rofl2:


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

> Seriously, that's a lot of car for the money and not as embarrassing to drive as a VW camper van.


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

BondandBigM said:


> The "fly by wire" throttle on my truck did have me scratching my head a bit when it packed in. Engine running but nothing happening when I pressed the accelerator peddle. Hood up but couldn't find what I automatically assumed to be a snapped cable. I bought a book after that :lol: :lol: And have you ever tried to get at the CPS on one of these newer Power Stokes in the end I figured you probably needed to break and twist one of your forearms at 90* to get to it. It would probably have been easier to take the engine out


I haven't been doing this stuff regularly for 18 years now, but far too many of the jobs I have ended up involved in have been drop engine ones. The manufacturers insist on putting sensors and electrical nonsense at the back of the block right up against the fire wall.

It doesn't help that the vehicles being built now are the result of modern computerised testing and design. They can effectively build a car that will fail shortly after the warranty ends.

Later,

William


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

Boxbrownie said:


> As for the cam belt change.....might be worth for the Â£200 investment in Koreas finest just running the thing until it goes ping.....might last another 65K.....and theres always PG if you get stranded :rofl2:


Just an aside my personal record for newest car with a broken cambelt is 8,000 miles on one of dagenhams finest!


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

pg tips said:


> Boxbrownie said:
> 
> 
> > As for the cam belt change.....might be worth for the Â£200 investment in Koreas finest just running the thing until it goes ping.....might last another 65K.....and theres always PG if you get stranded :rofl2:
> ...


Aha...so thats where that one went?


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## plumsteadblue (Sep 4, 2004)

HI, I recently changed my car as I felt my "old" one was too expensive to keep, not an old car just the tax, petrol and insurance, so thinking that I only ever have one person with me in the car at times, I bought a city car (stop laughing) it is a smart car an 2004 one, well it belonged to what I call "a ritch bitch" private plate and just 23,000 miles on the clock as she only ever used to to go shopping in it once or twice a week, so when I got it, it just loved going around town, then I took it on a run, oh boy was it rough running after that.

I was told at my local smart centre that the ems computer thingy remembers how you drive and adjusts the engine to run that way, well I took there advice and had a re map ( the basic one) and now it is faster more mpg and is great on runs and around town, when I got it it did 40-45mpg around town and now I get a good 50mpg around town and 65mpg+ on a run.

So maybe just maybe a re map may sort all your problems out and then you start out as the driver that tells it how you want to drive, so just an idea.

Cheers, John


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## funtimefrankie (Sep 8, 2009)

William_Wilson said:


> BondandBigM said:
> 
> 
> > The "fly by wire" throttle on my truck did have me scratching my head a bit when it packed in. Engine running but nothing happening when I pressed the accelerator peddle. Hood up but couldn't find what I automatically assumed to be a snapped cable. I bought a book after that :lol: :lol: And have you ever tried to get at the CPS on one of these newer Power Stokes in the end I figured you probably needed to break and twist one of your forearms at 90* to get to it. It would probably have been easier to take the engine out
> ...


I've got to agree with you there about manufactures putting things in places where you're virtually undressing the car to get at something simple. My old Copen (I really miss that car. Closest thing to a Mini for road holding with out being a Mini. And I mean a real Mini not one of these German ones!) had to have an oil service every three thousand miles and to get at the oil filter you had to firstly remove the front grill, then it's off with the bumper and onto removing the intercooler for the turbo. And hidden behind it all was an oil filter the size of a small baked bean tin.

Oh and Tim, Punto's aren't strange they are the Devil's own car.... My Sporting tells me there brake fluid is low when it's fine. Doesn't tell me the engine oil is low when it is. Disconnects my iPod and phone from Blue and me then stops all the steering wheel controls from working. Oh and has a habit of undressing itself under the bonnet where the rubber seal runs up along the top of the bulkhead. Other than that it's not a bad car though!

Frank


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## tall_tim (Jul 29, 2009)

funtimefrankie said:


> William_Wilson said:
> 
> 
> > BondandBigM said:
> ...


Yup, I had all of those issues to and also faulty glove box handle, outside door handle to drivers door replaced twice and the fascia for dashboard right under the windscreen sticks up. Other than that I loved it. Have an xtrail now, which I love even more, even if it does go through bearings faster than my kids go through shoes.


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## funtimefrankie (Sep 8, 2009)

tall_tim said:


> funtimefrankie said:
> 
> 
> > William_Wilson said:
> ...


Ah yes the demister panel... Glued that back into place last night in fact. Oh and thinking about it lets not forget the issue with the nearside rear wheel bearing and the two replacement top strut rubbers I had to have fitted too last week and it's only four years old. But all of that pales once you look at the seats with the odd plastic bubbles on them, just too cool. Have to say I like those X-Trails but we went Fiat again and bought a Sedici for Noreen and the kids. Well I say Fiat it's really a Suzuki SX4 with different bumpers and apart from eating tyres its a great car and in the bad weather it's like a pit pony, it just didn't put a foot (wheel) wrong.


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Arrgh!!!

Well, MOT time for the Kia Rio, and, guess what....mucho expensivo 

In my blind faith, I cleaned the washer jet motor, as it wasn't working; worked a treat and I thought, "Great, this will fly through the MOT now, surely can't need anything else done"....oh, the stupidity!

Ok, here's as much as I can remember:

Rear shock absorbers

Rear Bushes

Brake pipes

Front Brake Discs

Brake Master Cylinder

Rear Brakes

Excessive Play (in something somewhere, had started crying by this point!)

Can't remember the rest, but it comes to Â£650 anyway (which seems reasonable, I trust the mechanic).

Ach well, I got it for Â£200


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

scottishcammy said:


> Ach well, I got it for Â£200


Now you know why :lol: :lol:

Did you resolve the original rough running problem ????


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Ha! The mechanic says it's basically sound, just an unfortunate load of wear and tear at the same time. The engine has been fine ever since I undid the battery and put it back on. My driving style has been more miles and consistent speeds, so don't know if that has made a difference. It even sounds a hell of a lot better.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

If it sorts it out Â£650 + your tax and insurance and a bit of go go juice for a years running probably isn't bad these days when you look at the depreciation on most newer cars.


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

and if not, it will be getting left in Tottenham with a police hat on the back parcel shelf...


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

scottishcammy said:


> and if not, it will be getting left in Tottenham with a police hat on the back parcel shelf...


Do you need to go that far ???

:lol: :lol:


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

True mate!


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Oh yeah, fuel filter leaking/knackered!


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Another oh yeah, both rear wheel bearings!


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Last one, all new wiper blades :lol:

In total, it's:

Rear shock absorbers

Rear Bushes

Brake pipes

Front Brake Discs

Brake Master Cylinder

Rear Brakes

fuel filter leaking/knackered

both rear wheel bearings

I went on eurocarparts and added it up (3 items weren't available) and it was about Â£350, so sounds a good price. Can't believe how fecked everything is!


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

That list isn't too bad at all, and to be expected. These are all wear and tear items. When I was doing safety inspections here in Ontario, I would often come across cars that had major structural and safety issues as well as knackered engines and transmissions that were beyond simple parts replacement. 

Later,

William


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

I considered buying another car, but we'd probably have to shell out around Â£650 anyway and at least I know what's been done on this car, rather than leaping into the unknown with another motor.

As the mechanic said, Â£200 is almost scrap value, so it's still not too bad! I see they're selling for around a Â£1000 (give or take Â£200) on ebay for the same year and mileage.


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

Bit of thinking outside the box required here. I'll give you a clue.


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## scottishcammy (Jul 11, 2003)

Classic! I'll see if I can persuade one of his cousins to come over as well and turn it in to a sports car


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## Dr.f (Jun 29, 2011)

Try hitting it with a hammer


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