# There Are Homage Watches And There Are Tributes



## Guest (Sep 1, 2009)

I know how some people here feel about homage watches and I ain't the most open minded person either. But every now and then I see something that makes me wonder why there ain't more products like it. Today I got the official confirmation from Dan (Orange Watch Company) that the Tudor Snowflake 9411 homage project is actually finalizing in short time. And it looks amazing. First of all, it's a clear homage but not a fake since there's differences and clear logo (and Dan is clear on that, he wants to be noticed and his products to stand out as Orange products). And the differences? Improvements I say. First of all the original Tudor Snowflake had WR rating of 200m (enough for anyone I ain't fighting about these minor details here) the homage by Dan will have WR of 300m (tested). Then Dan is using Seagull ST18 range of movements as a standard (ETA 2892-A2 clone) which is amazing in it's own right but it doesn't stop there, he has options ready for Soprod A-10 (by far superior to ETA mentioned and amazing movement in any possible way, I personally have handled one in Sarpaneva watch and it was sweet). And there's even more wicked option available for those with cash ready and fast email writing skills (since this option will sell out in a heartbeat) Museum Edition with vintage high beat movement (ETA2837).

Well this sounds a lot like sales post, well it kind of is since I'm in awe but truthfully speaking, are there other makers of homage watches that actually try to improve the original specs, bring vintage models to life in modern versions and make them affordable at the same time? Only few watches comes to my mind, Longines Legend Diver (homage by Longines) and Eterna Kontiki diver (homage by Eterna) and of course the Precista watches by Timefactors / RLT watches by Roy. I bet this could be one of the ways smaller watchmakers are going to make it in the future. Why I didn't see this trend happening before it was thrown at my face in a email from a friend of mine and micro maker? Is the world filled with lousy cheap knock-offs so that people don't talk about quality homages anymore? And why some companies don't pay tribute to their own past? And even more bizarre I've seen some homages from "reputable" companies that don't even mention the original watch even thou it's clearly "copied", I understand it ain't mentioned if the original was merely used as a starting point and a inspiration, but to copy a design with out saying it out loud, it should be illegal.

one more rant by me, take care people


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

> Is the world filled with lousy cheap knock-offs so that people don't talk about quality homages anymore?


A knock off is a knock off *in my opinion*, doesnt matter about the quality aspect.... :bag:


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## Toshi (Aug 31, 2007)

discordianist said:


> and Dan is clear on that, he wants to be noticed and his products to stand out as Orange products


Seems to me that if Dan really wants his products to stand out then a little originality might be a good thing. Using an old design, popping a Chinese movement inside and putting his logo on the dial isn't exactly innovative IMO. :no:


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

No worse than some I guess, but not sure I'd like any watch that looks like it was made by the "London Underground" :lol:


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## rhaythorne (Jan 12, 2004)

As to companies not paying tribute to their own past, Longines has recently produced a "WWW" model I believe. I'm also interested in West End Watch Company's revival of the "Queen Anne" model, although info. seems a bit scarce in Europe and I'm not sure what movement they're using.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

now then.....seeing as we are now allowing free advertising on the forum.......

i'd like to mention my mate *Dan Duran* my barber, that can be found at *16 Stonegate, York, North Yorkshire. *Its not far from the main square. They are above a sandwich bar, but you'll notice it because they have a board with the salons name on which is *Geezers. *Competitive prices start from just *Â£8.50p *for a *dry cut *or *Â£10 for a wet cut. *i have no affiliation with Dan or Dawn his wife, but they do do a mean cut. *Telephone 01904632180*


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

What bloke in his right mind has a "wet" cut? :lol: puffs!


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

pg tips said:


> What bloke in his right mind has a "wet" cut? :lol: puffs!


i do


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## Mutley (Apr 17, 2007)

mrteatime said:


> pg tips said:
> 
> 
> > What bloke in his right mind has a "wet" cut? :lol: puffs!
> ...


 h34r: & probably in the style of an 80's homage to Phil Oakey :lol:


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

blow dry? Gel? :lol:








fftopic:


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## Andy the Squirrel (Aug 16, 2009)

I got a modern chinese made 20 jewel mechanical mickey mouse watch thats much better made than the 1933 Ingersoll watch it's based on!


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

mutley said:


> mrteatime said:
> 
> 
> > pg tips said:
> ...


how did you guess.........


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

pg tips said:


> blow dry? Gel? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no....i use hair muck.......thats what its called......*"muk me" or "kinky muk" or " hot muk" *

*
*

*
*dear oh dear pg....get with it, like whatever........ 

*
*

*
*[B]filthy muk[/B]

*
*


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

:lol: no one ever accused me of being "current"


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

jasonm said:


> > Is the world filled with lousy cheap knock-offs so that people don't talk about quality homages anymore?
> 
> 
> A knock off is a knock off *in my opinion*, doesnt matter about the quality aspect.... :bag:


How come Buster doesn't throw pies at you :blink:

:lol: :lol:


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

mrteatime said:


> prices start from just *Â£8.50p *for a *dry cut *


 

I never paid that much even when I had hair

:lol: :lol: :lol:



mrteatime said:


> no....i use hair muck.......thats what its called......*"muk me" or "kinky muk" or " hot muk" *
> 
> *
> *
> ...


*
*

*
*

*
**Kinky muk Curl Leave In Moisturiser*

*
*

*
â€¢ Intense moisture & hydration*

*
â€¢ Eliminates frizz*

*
â€¢ Defines curls*

*
â€¢ Non greasy*

*
â€¢ Humidity resistant*

*
â€¢ **Fruit salad fragrance*

:afro:


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## Barrow Boy (Mar 10, 2009)

Andy the Squirrel said:


> I got a modern chinese made 20 jewel mechanical mickey mouse watch thats much better made than the 1933 Ingersoll watch it's based on!


Are you sure about that? The Ingersoll is probably still working but I would be very surprised if you could say that about the chinese watch in 75 years time... 

BB


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## AlbertaTime (Aug 1, 2009)

Barrow Boy said:


> Andy the Squirrel said:
> 
> 
> > I got a modern chinese made 20 jewel mechanical mickey mouse watch thats much better made than the 1933 Ingersoll watch it's based on!
> ...


Don't be so sure...I have a few Chinese watches working fine at 50 years old...another 20 doesn't seem like too much of a hurdle.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

BondandBigM said:


> jasonm said:
> 
> 
> > > Is the world filled with lousy cheap knock-offs so that people don't talk about quality homages anymore?
> ...


Hmmm, good point Mr Bond :yes:

Jason, this one`s for you...





BTW, does anyone know where I can find some Snowflake style hands to fit an Orient cal.46D movement?  :lol:


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## Barrow Boy (Mar 10, 2009)

AlbertaTime said:


> Barrow Boy said:
> 
> 
> > Andy the Squirrel said:
> ...


You know I 100% believe that and think it is more about current manufacturing and quality control than country of origin.... I don't think many of the Chinese watches bought today would be running in 75 years time but then again probably neither would any of today's bunch of Ingersolls.

I have heard very good things about the Chinese movements and have nothing against them being used in quality watches (and am sure that some Chinese brands are) it is just the lack of finishing and general quality that seems to go with the 'cheaper'* movements that I worry about.

Cheers,

BB

* In today's climate that might just translate to purchasable for anyone not in the Swatch group.


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## AlbertaTime (Aug 1, 2009)

Barrow Boy said:


> .... I don't think many of the Chinese watches bought today would be running in 75 years time but then again probably neither would any of today's bunch of Ingersolls.
> 
> I have heard very good things about the Chinese movements and have nothing against them being used in quality watches (and am sure that some Chinese brands are) it is just the lack of finishing and general quality that seems to go with the 'cheaper'* movements that I worry about.


Very fair comment. I'm getting a distinct impression, though, from my travels on Taobao and elsewhere that some of the more major Chinese manufacturers are only a hair's breadth away from making serious moves in the "good" mid-market, at least, and with clearly Chinese branded and designed watches, IOWs not just as ebauche or homage suppliers.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Thanks Mac :clap:


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

jasonm said:


> Thanks Mac :clap:


You`re welcome :thumbup:

Back on topic, the point about potential longevity comes up every now & then, the thing is I own a number of old, shall we say unsophisticated watches including some which are around 80 years old that were inexpensive when new. Many have simple unjeweled pin-pallet movements which have probably rarely if ever been serviced yet they keep going, I doubt the manufacturers at the time expected them to last this long. My point being how can anyone be sure how long a watch will keep going :huh:


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## Barrow Boy (Mar 10, 2009)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Back on topic, the point about potential longevity comes up every now & then, the thing is I own a number of old, shall we say unsophisticated watches including some which are around 80 years old that were inexpensive when new. Many have simple unjeweled pin-pallet movements which have probably rarely if ever been serviced yet they keep going, I doubt the manufacturers at the time expected them to last this long. My point being how can anyone be sure how long a watch will keep going :huh:


Very true Mac, but I think the point with the pin-pallets (I own a few of those too) is really that they were so simple and basic. They probably keep almost as good time now as when they were made (I have some that are well under 20s per day out) but that does not really compare to new watches with modern movements. I think the higher tolerances and added complications make it far more likely that something will go wrong compared to the very simple cheap movements of 50 years ago - especially with mass produced/knock off* movements that are still more complex and really need to be well finished and maintained to keep to specification. A lot of it is to do with expectations - we don't seem to expect things to last today and manufacturers are happy to meet our expectations and sell us new gear every few years.

BB

* These are not really knock-offs since ETA put many of their movements into the public domain


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## Andy the Squirrel (Aug 16, 2009)

If simple un-jeweled pin-pallet movements are so great, why was there a need for anything else?


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## Barrow Boy (Mar 10, 2009)

AlbertaTime said:


> Barrow Boy said:
> 
> 
> > .... I don't think many of the Chinese watches bought today would be running in 75 years time but then again probably neither would any of today's bunch of Ingersolls.
> ...


You wouldn't like to name some of those companies would you? I would be interested in looking through their offerings.

Also, do you know if the Chinese movement manufacturers supply different quality/finish grades like ETA or is that left to the watchmakers?

Cheers,

BB


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## Barrow Boy (Mar 10, 2009)

Andy the Squirrel said:


> If simple un-jeweled pin-pallet movements are so great, why was there a need for anything else?


I think that was covered in my previous message... the simple pin pallets were very reliable and last a while but even when new were not of the accuracy that we expect now. I guess it would be possible to make them somewhat more accurate now but doubt they would ever get to the level expected - and obtained by more complex movements - these days.

BB


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## Guest (Sep 2, 2009)

There has been comparisons between Sea-Gull and ETA movements (2824-2 vs. ST2130) and accuracy is pretty much on par between those two. Althou Sea-Gull ain't as nicely finished. ST18 series of movements from Sea-Gull are upper line and thus have better finishing and there ain't dust, fingerprints and hairs inside the movement like in the case of ST2130, but how it compares to ETA version? No idea since I haven't seen that comparison. It's a solid movement thou and should serve well for years to come. Even ST2130 is pretty much on par with ETA version if properly cleaned, oiled and put back together. It shows where the price difference is made inside Sea-Gull factory. There are how ever loads of bad quality movements made by Sea-Gull, both sub standards movements (made for cheap copy watch makers and fakes) and movement families that ain't known for robust accurate performance (ST16 line comes to mind at first thought).

They're no Soprod thou or even higher quality ETA, but standard ETA versus well made Sea-Gull (meaning you order it from Sea-Gull and say that you mean the business and you are ready to return any movements not up to par) are pretty much same when it comes down to quality. ETA does offer loads of custom finishes and higher end movements in same lines thou. That's what the swiss do best


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

If we're advertising, Mrs Mel and Myself have a new dance class starting 22nd October in Edinburgh - - - - :yes:

Nowt wrong with a homage that's not pretending to be what it isn't - if it's got Rolux on the dial in the same style instead of Rolex, then it's a fake, as is a Rolex badge on a cheap copy - - but if it's got Invicta or Alpha or similar on it, then leave it alone and you get what you pay for :grin:

(Is there a "stir-it-up" icon? ) :rofl:


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

To be fair, it wouldn't bother me to much if it was an eta or seagull tbh. I think more and more small watchmakers are going to be using them as time goes on. I managed to source an eta equivalant thanks to dapper that replaced an eta and its been pretty bang on so far.


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## Padders (Oct 21, 2008)

Why do people of late quote Soprod as if they are the holy grail of movements? Can someone list some links to facts about them because as far as I have seen they are warmed over ETA and therefore not necessarily any better than high end seagull. I am prepared to be corrected and enlightened though!


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2009)

I've been informed that Soprod quality is superior to ETA quality by Sarpaneva (maker of Sarpaneva and SUF watches) he said both to me in person during telephone call and in interview that can be found from the web that based on his knowledge and testing Soprod has higher quality and better quality control then ETA in the same "quality" level. Soprod offers larger selection of customizations and options on their movements and can produce smaller volumes and custom modifications based on watchmakers specs.

I've handled only one movement and it was A-10, it was amazing and had feel I've never experienced before, is it better then top of the line ETA, I'm not sure but at least it's up there.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2009)

Just to update on those of you who are interested, MilSub-9411 is sold out already and there's no word on future production run. Dan said that there are few 5517s available still and next product launches are just around the corner, something along the lines of Explorer styled watch I got (but in 40mm size) and something else as well, maybe something orange and something from exotic material (no word on what yet thou).


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## bobbymonks (Jan 13, 2009)

IMO homage watches are just as bad as fakes for the industry. As all they do is try to be passed off as something they are not, cheapening the real brand.

Why not spend your money wisely and have one good genuine watch, instead of several homage watches?

It also saves the embarrassing conversation "is that a ......." and having to reply "well, no but it looks like one and is just as good" ........ Sorry it isn't.


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## gaz64 (May 5, 2009)

or you could say yes its genuine I have the same watch that they pay tiger woods to wear........... But I bought it for the quality not because I am a self obsessed fashion victim...

Stand by for the tomatoes ....Umbrella up.....


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## Bootsy (Jun 2, 2009)

Interesting thread.

I'm not usually a huge Homage fan at all but I do actually think that Dan at OWC has approached this in a very different manner and the detail he is going into has all the makings of some great watches.

Yes, I've pre ordered one of the Snowflake 1st runs and during the decision process and post placing the order I have been enlightened as to what is going into the making of these watches and the work to ensure a high quality product.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

bobbymonks said:


> IMO homage watches are just as bad as fakes for the industry. As all they do is try to be passed off as something they are not, cheapening the real brand.
> 
> Why not spend your money wisely and have one good genuine watch, instead of several homage watches?
> 
> It also saves the embarrassing conversation "is that a ......." and having to reply "well, no but it looks like one and is just as good" ........ Sorry it isn't.


I would never try to pass off my Alpha, Orient or even Heuer `Subs` as the real thing and I do have quite a few good "genuine" watches :wink2:

As I said in my Group Photo thread...



mach 0.0013137 said:


> I really like the look of the sub in it`s various guises (apart of course from the SDDS :yucky but there`s no way I could afford to buy them which is why I`ve got the others


I have never understood why some people get so upset about homage watches, they appeal to those who like the designs but either can`t afford/or are willing to pay the price of the originals.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2009)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> I have never understood why some people get so upset about homage watches, they appeal to those who like the designs but either can`t afford/or are willing to pay the price of the originals


Or in case of OWC, can't find/afford/spare to wear the original since these are made in spirit of some of the greatest design classics, no longer available new. Would I actually go diving with Rolex MilSub-5517? Not in a million years, but I've had Dans OWC MilSub-5517 on my wrist during fifteen dives already. Same applies to MilSub-9411.


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> I have never understood why some people get so upset about homage watches


No comment I'm fed up dodging flying pies


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

BondandBigM said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> > I have never understood why some people get so upset about homage watches
> ...


I don`t mean you so much Mr.Bond, you at least have a sense of humour about it, there are however some out there who can appear to be almost contemptuous about those who buy these watches. Not likeing something is ok, there are some watches I`m not keen on :swoon: but I would never question why people buy them


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> you at least have a sense of humour


I need to have to put up with "M" 

I showed her a piccy of that dodgy gold one off polprof Omega and put it on her phone as a screen saver now she's pestering me for one, I pointed out it's rarity and she said "Can't I just get one that looks like it"



:lol: :lol:


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

BondandBigM said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> > you at least have a sense of humour
> ...


Email Alpha & suggest it to them, M`d be happy & it would save you a fortune :lol:


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> BondandBigM said:
> 
> 
> > mach 0.0013137 said:
> ...


Now there's an idea ! an Alpprof - or would it be a Plopha <- I like Plopha best! :rofl:


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## raysablade (Jun 12, 2005)

Of course what would be really innovative and an upgrade on the original would be to put a decent quartz movement and a ten year battery in the things.

That might just about justify re-inventing a classic.

I asked Dan if he would do that for me and he wouldn't.


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## Loddonite (Apr 5, 2009)

I love it when the old 'homage' vs 'knock-off' threads start rolling. I love donning the old flameproof suit.

Everyone draws their own line in the sand.

My particular line wiggles through Alpha - one day they're ok in my mind, the next they are not. The same goes for Parnis and even the Marina Militares (which really do push my limits).

I give MkII, Timefactors, Orange and the like a clean bill of health because, although the designs are derivative, I feel a genuine attempt is made to add something. (And I like them)


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

> Everyone draws their own line in the sand.


Very true..... :thumbsup:


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2009)

Loddonite said:


> I love it when the old 'homage' vs 'knock-off' threads start rolling. I love donning the old flameproof suit.
> 
> Everyone draws their own line in the sand.
> 
> ...


I have issues with few Invicta models and Alpha in general, althou I don't have issues with people enjoying these watches. I just think that they're not even trying, they're just making the cheapest possible clone of known watch. At least companies you mention really try (including RLT since there's few historical homages there too, not clones, but homages).

Besides I know that Dan is taking OWC away from these tribute watches towards designs of his own, step by step. 5517 is rather clear Rolex homage with small changes, 9411 is bit updated from the original (sapphire crystal, AR coating, better movement, ceramic bezel, so forth) and next models are even more evolved into things of their own. I know that BlackTie model he's cooking up is going to be something of his own, at least much more then other offerings. And there are few divers in the works which will set the bar even higher.

I think this whole Homage thing is bit comic, specially when talking about OWC, Timefactors or RLT since they don't seem to mimic existing models, they take design cues from the past and bring them to date, modern watches with vintage feel.


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)

BondandBigM said:


> mach 0.0013137 said:
> 
> 
> > you at least have a sense of humour
> ...


Why not

M clearly likes Seen Canary..........couldn't have the real thing, so settled for a homage that likes Smirnoff and Rolex Subs   :lol:


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

jasonm said:


> > Everyone draws their own line in the sand.
> 
> 
> Very true..... :thumbsup:


and they are often wonky and blurred!


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

Griff said:


> Why not
> 
> M clearly likes Seen Canary..........couldn't have the real thing, so settled for a homage that likes Smirnoff and Rolex Subs   :lol:


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Openended (Nov 4, 2009)

It's funny all it takes is the name on the watch face to change a watch from a fake to a homage. Have Rolex on the fake sub design and it's a fake, but have DÃ©baufrÃ© on the 99/9% the same design and it's justified. :jawdrop:

It's pretty late anyway, even the luxury brands Rolex, Omega share almost exact similar designs (hands, cases etc).


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## aliasmarlow (Dec 23, 2005)

I think "homage" is over used, to my mind if the orginal is no longer made, then its fine....

I cant see that the Alpha clones of current Omega PO etc... "show respect" to the original


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## Markrlondon (Feb 20, 2009)

bobbymonks said:


> IMO homage watches are just as bad as fakes for the industry. As all they do is try to be passed off as something they are not, cheapening the real brand.


Surely the whole point with homage watches is that they are not passing themselves off as anything but what they are: Homages. There is no intent or attempt to deceive.

E.g. An Orange Watch Company watch is an Orange watch company watch, a Marcello C is a Marcello C watch, and so on.

This is completely distinct from fakes which both intend to and attempt to deceive the observer into believing the watch is something other than what it is in reality.



bobbymonks said:


> Why not spend your money wisely and have one good genuine watch, instead of several homage watches?


There can be several reasons for this. E.g. The purchaser might not be able to possibly ever afford the 'real' thing, and so a non-fake homage is as close as they can get. Or perhaps they just feel that a non-fake, well made, homage gives them better value, as they perceive it, than the watch to which it is a homage.



bobbymonks said:


> It also saves the embarrassing conversation "is that a ......." and having to reply "well, no but it looks like one and is just as good" ........ Sorry it isn't.


What is there to be embarrased about?

If I was wearing, say, an OWC, or a Marcello C diver, or even an Alpha, and someone was to ask me "Is that a genuine Rolex?" then I would answer: "No, it's a genuine OWC/Marcello C/whatever. It's an excellent watch and is far more exclusive than a Rolex."


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## Markrlondon (Feb 20, 2009)

Openended said:


> It's funny all it takes is the name on the watch face to change a watch from a fake to a homage. Have Rolex on the fake sub design and it's a fake, but have DÃ©baufrÃ© on the 99/9% the same design and it's justified.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam for years on this forum & no doubt could continue to carry on unresolved for years to come :fool:

Maybe it would be best if those who don`t like homages (or whatever word suits your personal views) just ignored them, pretend they don`t exist & respect the views of those who do







:wink2:


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## Andy the Squirrel (Aug 16, 2009)

Everyone seems to be copying each other, is there any copy-write on watch designs?


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

> Maybe it would be best if those who don`t like homages (or whatever word suits your personal views) just ignored them, pretend they don`t exist & respect the views of those who do


Im trying Mac, I really am :umnik2:


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## outstretchedhands (May 29, 2008)

Toshi said:


> discordianist said:
> 
> 
> > and Dan is clear on that, he wants to be noticed and his products to stand out as Orange products
> ...


Agreed.


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## pg tips (May 16, 2003)

completely lost track of where we were going with this thread, had to google to see what watch the OP was on about.

If someone had sad the one with the london underground logo I would have remembered h34r:


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

jasonm said:


> Im trying Mac, I really am :umnik2:


So I`ve been told :lol:


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## BondandBigM (Apr 4, 2007)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Maybe it would be best if those who don`t like homages (or whatever word suits your personal views) just ignored them, pretend they don`t exist


I wish I could but Big M had a purple subalike in her hand today in ASDA and was about to head for the tills 

Until I took the tenner off her :lol:

I'm just off out to spend my ill gotten gains down the local 70's Disco bar, you can get a lot of two for ones for a tenner :lol:


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