# Old Cherished Pocketwatch. Anyone Able To Help?



## nealtdavies (Jun 25, 2013)

Hi there guys. New to the forum (Brand new!)

I was wondering if any of you could help me out.

I was given by my great aunt a long time ago before she died (Aged 90) an old pocket watch owned by her father.

I cherish it, with no intention to ever part with it (and i'm convinced its a common worthless oldie anyway) but it sentimentally means alot to me.

Just wondering if any of you could help me out with some info about it. Ive wanted to know for years and just want to know a bit about my watch. 

Link below to the photos

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157634344012981/

I appreciate any of you taking a look for me. Means alot.

Neal


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## Thomasr (Oct 11, 2011)

Can't tell you much, looks of some quality as they have jewelled along the train, case looks nickel to me. Is a full plate movement and the layout would date it to the 19th century

Im sure there are many others with more knowledge in this field than me

:thumbup: Best of Luck


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## nealtdavies (Jun 25, 2013)

Thank you. Excuse my ignorance but would love to learn, what does jewelled along the train mean? any way i can look in the watch to find a name or anything?

Many thanks.

Neal


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## goddardbros (Jun 18, 2013)

I appear to have the same watch as you do! Here are some pictures of mine; (No idea what jewelled along the train means btw)
























I have been told that it resembles an Early Waltham pocket watch, although mine could possible be a Swiss-made fake due to the lack of any identifying features associated with Waltham.

Mine (I believe, I could be wrong) dates from around 1871-1900, which is around the time they made it mandatory to state the country the movement was made in (hence the 'swiss made' inscription), but I don't see any on yours, meaning it could be earlier than mine.

Again, I am no expert, I joined the forum a week ago to try to find out what my watch was, so don't quote me on what I've said.

Good luck!


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## Thomasr (Oct 11, 2011)

the train being jewelled refers to the escape wheel, pallets 3rd and 4th wheels all use ruby bearings in stead of plain metal, this can be seen on your watch on the top plate (the one under the balance), if you look at the other watch posted this is only jewelled part of the way along the train (on the components that rotate the most)

does look like a waltham, i have a picture of one somewhere, will track down and upload


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## Melville (Jun 17, 2013)

The first one looks to be 15 jewels but it could be only 11 because sometimes the pillar plate was not jewelled. This could only be confirmed by removing the dial. If you did remove the dial you may find some identifying marks which could confirm it's origin. The second watch is pretty much the same although it appears to be 11 or 9 jewels. Neither of the watches are by Waltham. From the very beginning Waltham always marked their movements with the name and the serial number. These four Walthams date between 1867 to 1919 and are all marked as Waltham with serial numbers.


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## nealtdavies (Jun 25, 2013)

Hey guys. Thanks for the replies. This is pointing me in the right direction!

I'd really love to know more about it. How would one remove the dial to find any identifying marks? I really dont want to break it.

Despite the hand for the seconds being missing it still winds, ticks, though a little slow on keeping time!

*So far from you guys ive established:*

. Its Jewelled mechanism. Poss 15.

. Its Waltham 'Style' but assuming its not, possibly swiss copy?

. Its mid to late 19th century as it hasnt any identifying marks as to where its made on.....

Anyone able to help me further? Its funny nowadays hearing a Swiss copy, yet nowadays you hear Swiss as a great place for making watches!!!

I see watches saying 'Goliath watch' that match its style on ebay (though the winder is more than often at the top on the handle as opposed to a key!) is this a particular style of watch as opposed to a Make.?

I really appreciate your guys help. The plot thickens!!!! (mines the first watch with photos in the initial post. But maybe this can help 'Goddardbros' too!

Thanks a million for your help, and any in advance.

Neal


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

You haven't mentioned the size (diameter) of the watch, or have I missed it? "Goliath" is often used in relation as if it were "David and Goliath" and a PW labelled thus is often oversized compared with the standard 50mm or so sized watches.

The Waltham watches which were copied by Swiss makers were extremely popular jewelled but relatively inexpensive Pocket watches in what was to become a very large market in America, and appealed to Americans on price and quality. Google/Wiki on Waltham, America Watch Company and Waterbury Watch Company PW's for a fair bit of details on this and why the Swiss resorted to unsigned copies - - mainly to improve sales in the US of course!

Waterbury (later to become part of the TIMEX organisation) were involved in the ubiquitous "dolar Watch" - the much cheapaer (a Dollar) PW for the working man and farmhand.


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## nealtdavies (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks Mel. I researched Waltham Watches and found a serial number site. Popped in the serial from the watch and came up with the info attached.....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157634357878425/

The page debunking the abbreviations.... (i hope this is ok with links policy. its only a serial number page for help?)

http://www.nawcc-info.org/walthamdb/Glossary.htm

IF this is the watch that this serial says it is....it would have been exactly the time Waltham merged to form American Watch co. from what i believe.....would this explain no name on it?

"The *Waltham Improvement Co.* merged in January 1859 with the *Appleton, Tracy & Co.* forming the *American Watch co."*

*The important bit is i don't understand what i'm reading.....could someone help identify if this could be my watch?*

*Im excited either way. This is really interesting!!!! You guys rock!*

Neal.


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## Melville (Jun 17, 2013)

Dream on!! No way is your watch a Waltham of any kind and certainly not the one shown described above. That serial number you have is not the watch number, it is the CASE NUMBER which has nothing to do with the movement. The details you have brought up above is the MOVEMENT number and it is a very desirable watch, being one of only nine in that very early run P.S. Bartletts. That watch would be worth a great deal of money, well into four figures. The watch you have, I'm sorry to say would struggle to make three figures, it is a low to medium grade movement in a low grade case. I repeat, your watch IS NOT a Waltham. It is a late 19th or early 20th century watch. Probably Swiss. It is not a Swiss 'copy' or 'fake' of an American Watch. The Swiss 'fakes' are far more convincing at first glance.

The details you have looked up are from the Waltham Grey Book, (which in no way relates to your watch), this is from a run of just 9 movements built in the month of March, 1859. It is an 18 size, Model 1857, P.S. Bartlett Grade, adjusted to 5 positions, with 15 jewels in nickel full size plates. It would have looked similar to the watch on the left of the four I listed earlier, only far more desirable as it is 8 years earlier, and prior to the American Civil War.


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## nealtdavies (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks Melville. Like i say...new to watches etc....and just trying to learn. I get what you say here, ran away with case number and not movement....etc.

Never been about worth, its sentimental and just wanted to know more about a family members watch from long ago.

Just love to know what it is thats all.


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## Melville (Jun 17, 2013)

Hey, I can understand your excitement when finding those details. We've all felt our pulses racing when we have thought we have something special, but as you say in the case of a family piece it's the correct history that's important, and the financial worth is secondary. As a matter of interest what is the diameter of the dial?


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## nealtdavies (Jun 25, 2013)

Thanks Melville.

The diameter of the face is 4.5cm. The diameter of the entire watch/casing is 5.3 cm.

Is this a standard size?

Thanks,


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## Melville (Jun 17, 2013)

nealtdavies said:


> Thanks Melville.
> 
> The diameter of the face is 4.5cm.	The diameter of the entire watch/casing is 5.3 cm.
> 
> ...


Yes that is a standard size 18. I've had a rummage through some of my spares boxes and found a couple of cases for comparison. The one on the left is an 18 size and the other one is a 'Goliath' case. The Goliath watches were either 30 hour watches that were dual purpose, and could be used as a large pocket watch or could be housed in an extra casing and used as a mantle clock. Or they were 8 day watch/clocks that had multiple uses. They were usually wound from the 6 o'clock position and could be used in cars and light aircraft with a dashboard fitting, or as standard travel clocks fitted into folding leather cases.


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## Melville (Jun 17, 2013)

This is a 'mock-up' of what a 30 hour Goliath in a silver fronted strut case would look like.


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## Melville (Jun 17, 2013)

More bits from the spares boxes. Two Goliath movements. An 8 day that winds from the 6 o'clock position and a 30 hour that winds from the 12 o'clock position.


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Melville has the bitz right enough, me, I only have the academic view point on PW's, owning a couple or three modern-ish ones!

Melville, do you have a long wind at all? Those are interesting movements as well? Only ever seen photos of one of those. My academic interest/knowledge is in part of the history of the Timex conglomerate of companies as was and later became!


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