# Help finding history of a pocket watch



## Mike Fenn (Oct 15, 2020)

Hi newbie here to your forum and I hope I'm in the correct place.

I am trying to find any info/history about my great great grandfathers pocket watch. The watch has recently been restored and is in lovely condition. The silver case is hallmarked and although the hallmarks are difficult to make out I am pretty certain that it is London silver 1824. The watch it self has a verge movement and is signed H Dawes London with a number 7074. I have hunted around the internet but can find no reference anywhere to an H Dawes watchmaker, any help would be much appreciated .

Thanks, Mike


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Mike Fenn said:


> Hi newbie here to your forum and I hope I'm in the correct place.
> 
> I am trying to find any info/history about my great great grandfathers pocket watch. The watch has recently been restored and is in lovely condition. The silver case is hallmarked and although the hallmarks are difficult to make out I am pretty certain that it is London silver 1824. The watch it self has a verge movement and is signed H Dawes London with a number 7074. I have hunted around the internet but can find no reference anywhere to an H Dawes watchmaker, any help would be much appreciated .
> 
> Thanks, Mike


 I'm finding nothing in the usual reference books and online sources. Are you sure about the H? Post Office directory for 1843 has Dawes Wm. Matthias, jeweller, &c. 131 Upper st. Islington.


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## Mike Fenn (Oct 15, 2020)

Thanks for your interesting reply, I could be mistaken trying to identify the signature. Will try to add a link to photos for any ones opinion. Not knowing much about this subject is it possible that jewellers would sign the movement and not always the watchmaker

Thanks, Mike

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xeavck4s6ey7s0a/20200719_124424.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8adgqjqr36w3it0/DSCF2781-2.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9lm3a2gn01s2d4v/DSCF2792.jpg?dl=0


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Mike Fenn said:


> Thanks for your interesting reply, I could be mistaken trying to identify the signature. Will try to add a link to photos for any ones opinion. Not knowing much about this subject is it possible that jewellers would sign the movement and not always the watchmaker
> 
> Thanks, Mike
> 
> ...


 That looks to me like J C Dawes. There was a James Dawes working in Islington circa 1810, maybe related to the Wm Dawes I found before. They were jewellers and watchmakers.

Watchmaker is a commonly misunderstood term. Jewellers and watchmakers would buy in ready made components - movement, case, dial etc - and assemble them, then put their own name on the movement and/or dial. The watch industry in London was centred on Clerkenwell.


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## Mike Fenn (Oct 15, 2020)

Thanks Spinynorman

This all looks very interesting and possible the maker, may I ask where you found the James Dawes ? can't find him on the 1841 census William Dawes is shown as a watchmaker and as you say possible relation.

Thanks again, Mike


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Mike Fenn said:


> Thanks Spinynorman
> 
> This all looks very interesting and possible the maker, may I ask where you found the James Dawes ? can't find him on the 1841 census William Dawes is shown as a watchmaker and as you say possible relation.
> 
> Thanks again, Mike


 In a good old fashioned book - Brian Loomes' "Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World". It's possible he's too early for your man - late 1700s to c1810, and not in the census.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Continuing the trail, dear @spinynorman...

I have examined your picture of the signed movement plate, dear @Mike Fenn and I can see why you thought it said, "H. Dawes". The odd thing is the lack of punctuation between what might be the first and second name initials, J and C (which would normally read J. C. Dawes) and the fact that a swirling line is almost continuous on the engraving as a possible crossing of the upper case H if the engraved name reads "H. Dawes". The engraver seems to have punctuated the upper case H with a double-stop - if indeed that first name initial letter is an H. I have located a pocket watch with distinct external similarity to your example by R. Dawes of Southampton, and another watch by Richard Dawes of Southampton with a gold case hallmarked for London, 1845, but so far the trail leading to your own watch seems blocked.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

@Mike Fenn Can you post a clear picture of the case with the hallmarks? There should be another stamp with initials, which might point us to the maker of the case.


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

@Mike Fenn @Always"watching" I found a James Dawes of London pocket watch. Signature is different and it's dated 1780. Probably not the one you're looking for.


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## Mike Fenn (Oct 15, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your interest. I'm unable to find any makers mark on the case. The hallmarks are very very faint I guess to much polish in the past, will try to get a picture of the marks that are there and post them up.

Mike


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## Mike Fenn (Oct 15, 2020)

Picture of hallmarks on the case. The initials in the centre (upside down ) I suspect are my G G Grandfather's W F

https://www.dropbox.com/s/epcjutbx4mz1ert/IMGP1527.jpeg?dl=0


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Mike Fenn said:


> Picture of hallmarks on the case. The initials in the centre (upside down ) I suspect are my G G Grandfather's W F
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/epcjutbx4mz1ert/IMGP1527.jpeg?dl=0


 Thanks for the picture. The makers mark could be well away from the hallmarks, but it does look like polishing would have done for yours.

Possibly we have a Dawes family business trading in Islington, but beyond that, I'm afraid it's the end of the line.


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## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

To @spinynorman and @Mike Fenn

I have continued working on research into your watch, Mike, and I can tell you that the initials W F that appear within the hall marks are in fact the sponsor mark for the case maker, William Fielder, registered in 1823. Fielder worked in Clerkenwell, London, for a considerable length time and the script mark found on your watch seems to have been used from about 1823 until 1841 when a new mark was registered - upper case WF within an oval. This finding is helpful because it does tally with your feeling that the date letter on the watch is for 1824; unfortunately, the date letter in your photograph is rather blurred.

I hope this information is of interest and I just wish we could ascertain the exact maker of your watch.


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## Mike Fenn (Oct 15, 2020)

Guys this is fantastic thank you so much

As spinynorman suggests its a possibility the watch was made by the Dawes family. Thanks"Always watching for your research into the case, that's so funny because my cousin and myself were always told it was my G G Grandfathers initials William Fenn. It's been great learning a bit more about the watch which is now in lovely working condition and will be passed down to future members of my family.

Mike


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## spinynorman (Apr 2, 2014)

Always said:


> To @spinynorman and @Mike Fenn
> 
> I have continued working on research into your watch, Mike, and I can tell you that the initials W F that appear within the hall marks are in fact the sponsor mark for the case maker, William Fielder, registered in 1823. Fielder worked in Clerkenwell, London, for a considerable length time and the script mark found on your watch seems to have been used from about 1823 until 1841 when a new mark was registered - upper case WF within an oval. This finding is helpful because it does tally with your feeling that the date letter on the watch is for 1824; unfortunately, the date letter in your photograph is rather blurred.
> 
> I hope this information is of interest and I just wish we could ascertain the exact maker of your watch.


 Well spotted!


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