# Timex Self-Wind - Looking For Info



## Chascomm

On the weekend I was dismantling one of these:










...and it got me curious about the origins of the design.

I know there are some Timex experts here, so I wonder if somebody can give me some answers to any of the following questions:

-What year did Timex first produce an automatic watch?

-Where was it first made?

-When did the Dundee factory start making automatics?

-When did they stop making them?

-Were there any other Timex factories aruond the world that made the automatic models?

Or is there a site to which you could direct me that details all these things (and not just the US part of Timex)? So far all I know is that the hand-winding base movement was introduced in 1959 in the USA, and that my watch was made in Britain in 1968.


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## mel

Some tricky questions there Chas! Indeed :yes:

The Dundee plant was the scene of some very acrimonious and militant union action during the period of wind-down when Timex were attempting to close the plant. Sit-ins, direct action occupying the plant and offices and as a result, I think Timex would prefer to gloss over a bad period of workplace relationships and thus very little "official" info seems to have survived from the Dundee plant's heyday. :yes:

I have a Dundee Service manual which lists the "Automatic" series as from 1960 using a #29 movement. This is a #22 movement with auto winding mechanism added. The #22 dates from around the late 50's onwards. I'm not sure if Dundee and the US were always "in step" with each other, as Bill D. (watchnutz) often has dates a year or two out what I see on watches produced in Scotland versus the same model made in the USA. For example, it's my belief that if a dial is signed "SELF-WIND" and the piece is a Dundee one, then it's pre about 1964, whereas AFAIK "SELF-WIND" continued in use in the US long after that date. After 1964/5, Dundee started signing "AUTOMATIC" possibly to come away from the perceived Americanism of "SELF-WIND" - and then you come along with a 68 watch signed "SELF-WIND" :to_become_senile:

So another theory gets blown out of the water! :lol:

So the only bit I CAN answer is that - to the best of my knowledge, Dundee started producing Auto's in 1960 - which also assumes that Timex were already producing Autos elsewhere and tooling was installed at Dundee to produce there also. :wallbash:

Then again, maybe just parts were shipped into Dundee for assembly onto #22 movements - who knows. I've tried asking via 'tinternet for anyone who worked at the plant to contact if they have info, but no one has come forward. :to_become_senile:


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## pg tips

I tried to get to the bottom of this selfwind v automatic question ages ago and basically drew a blank, as Mel says you'd think it was a us and them issue with our colonial cousins separated by a common language but they seemed to use both for both markets erratically throughout the whole of the 60's.

Auto's were def still being made in the Phillipines factory right up until the early 80's


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## mel

Paul and Chas, could of course just be that what was to hand was used in the sense that dials could have been shipped very rapidly and relatively cheaply between continents if one or other plant was running short or in excess of normal stockholdings. Again, who really knows?


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## Chascomm

mel said:


> Some tricky questions there Chas! Indeed :yes:


I like to get my money's worth.



> The Dundee plant was the scene of some very acrimonious and militant union action during the period of wind-down when Timex were attempting to close the plant. Sit-ins, direct action occupying the plant and offices and as a result, I think Timex would prefer to gloss over a bad period of workplace relationships and thus very little "official" info seems to have survived from the Dundee plant's heyday. :yes:


Ah, that makes sense.



> I have a Dundee Service manual which lists the "Automatic" series as from 1960 using a #29 movement. This is a #22 movement with auto winding mechanism added. The #22 dates from around the late 50's onwards. I'm not sure if Dundee and the US were always "in step" with each other, as Bill D. (watchnutz) often has dates a year or two out what I see on watches produced in Scotland versus the same model made in the USA. For example, it's my belief that if a dial is signed "SELF-WIND" and the piece is a Dundee one, then it's pre about 1964, whereas AFAIK "SELF-WIND" continued in use in the US long after that date. After 1964/5, Dundee started signing "AUTOMATIC" possibly to come away from the perceived Americanism of "SELF-WIND" - and then you come along with a 68 watch signed "SELF-WIND" :to_become_senile:
> 
> So another theory gets blown out of the water! :lol:


NOT necessarily. Mine is indeed signed 'Automatic' on the dial, but 'Self-Wind' on the back. It makes sense to me that while they would do the easy thing and change the printing of the dial, they would spare themselves the expense of cutting a new caseback die until such time as it was really necessary (e.g. the switch from 'Water Proof' to 'Water Resistant')



> So the only bit I CAN answer is that - to the best of my knowledge, Dundee started producing Auto's in 1960 - which also assumes that Timex were already producing Autos elsewhere and tooling was installed at Dundee to produce there also. :wallbash:
> 
> Then again, maybe just parts were shipped into Dundee for assembly onto #22 movements - who knows. I've tried asking via 'tinternet for anyone who worked at the plant to contact if they have info, but no one has come forward. :to_become_senile:


OK. So either option confirms that Timex were working very much as an integrated global operation right from the introduction of the #22 et al.

You've also more or less confirmed that the movement series used in all these watches was designed from the outset with an automatic option in mind, which implies the design and prototyping of the auto-wind system goes back to the late 1950s.

As a bit of background, my Timex has the caseback stamped 'Great Britain' on the inside. The movement is also stamped 'Great Britain' and the back of the dial is printed 'England', however there is no indication of country of origin anywhere on the outside of the watch.

That fits your thought about parts being shipped between countries. It may be that in the early days the US factory couldn't meet demand so English dials needed to be printed without 'Great Britain' on them just in case.



pg tips said:


> Auto's were def still being made in the Phillipines factory right up until the early 80's


Thanks for that, Paul. I had no idea that Timex mechanicals wer ever made in the Phillipines. I always thought they only did quartz there.

It's a tricky busness untangling the history of a multinational company like Timex. My first new watch was a 1979 Timex hand-winder assembled in Taiwan with a Taiwanese movement and dial in a British case. The movement was still held together with screws, but others from a similar time period that I've seen have been rivetted.


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## Chascomm

Another question....

I understand that many Timex model have names, even though the watches are not marked with such names. Mine bears the inscription "4014 3168". Does anybody know the name for a 4014?


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## pg tips

they were just known as the "automatic" series although by 1974 (from a catalouge I have) they seem to be calling their waterproof dustproof autos "Viscount"


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## pg tips

found this pic of one of mine


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## mel

You have to cross reference the model number against the Sales Catalogue for the year to be absolutely sure of a name, but there is also a mnemonic and model number "system" in the Service Manual which can sometimes help - 40 is for an auto, then 4 indicates a Gold coloured Bezel and 1 "narrows down" similar models where necessary. 

The 5th digit (if it exists) is for whatever was fitted as OEM - strap, cord (ladies) or bracelet but is usually only found on the Sales Catalogue and not on the watch itself. A standard model number 1044 - this would be a Mercury with a Gold bezel, Sweep hand with plain dial.

The letter mnemonic system is more complicated, and was (AFAIK) used by jewellers to order spares along with the model number, so this appears in the Service Manual.


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## Chascomm

Chascomm said:


> ...Mine is indeed signed 'Automatic' on the dial, but 'Self-Wind' on the back.


I must be going cross-eyed. Clearly mine is marked 'Self-Wind' on both the dial and the back. But it still fits with the idea that parts were made with the understanding that they may need to be shipped to another factory to make up quantities. So a British dial signed 'Self-Wind' and with no country of origin could be sent to the USA if required. This particular watch may have been sold in Canada, but I don't know how relevant that is.


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## watchnutz

pg tips said:


> they were just known as the "automatic" series although by 1974 (from a catalouge I have) they seem to be calling their waterproof dustproof autos "Viscount"


Timex catalogs called the self wind models "Viscount" from the very beginning in 1957 up until the 1980 catalog. About 1978 they started deemphasizing the Viscout name by heading the catalog section as Automatic but then having Viscount self-wind in a sub title.


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