# Information on 18K antique watch



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Hi

I am a retired antique dealer but I also work for a charity shop part time. I always want to do best by the shop so get as much information as possible from third parties on antique items.

I believe this is a lady's half hunter watch. It has an undamaged enamelled cover. The enamel face has a hairline crack from 1:30 to 7:30. The winder will only turn backwards (and won't pull out or push in) and the hands won't change.

However it is marked 18K on several pieces and also Beaver Manchester. The total weight is 32 grams and the diameter of the body is 1.25 inches. I estimate that the gold is probably one third of the weight so 10 grams of 18K gold? (Is that a sensible estimate or a bit high?)

I'd hate this to go in my scrap box!

I have written to admin to ask if I can put up a one off For Sale advertisement as I have less than 50 posts.

In the meantime I would at least like an idea of date and maker (I know I can't ask for the wholesale valuation I need) and would it be worth getting repaired please?

Hope this new way of showing photos works!

https://goo.gl/photos/9Fd7CZi7eFVXgrn3A

TIA

Vigman


----------



## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Thanks for your very sensible request! I can't help, but it's good that someone asks politely and explains what, why, when and where the info is needed. :yes:

Hope someone comes along to offer better advice! WE get far too many demands almost for info that is relatively easy to Google. Good luck in your quest.


----------



## scottswatches (Sep 22, 2009)

there are very, very few collectors of ladies pocket watches, and without a makers name to add to the desirability then it is worth its case weight in gold, and nowt more in my humble, working or not


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Many thanks. I didn't want to vandalise the watch by ripping the works out in case some folk wanted them for restoration

The only other thing I am interested in is the "18K" mark which I would normally take to be from the USA but the retailer? Beaver (of) Manchester being UK. Were the cases or the complete watches imported, please?

TIA

Vigman


----------



## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

If one turns to "Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World, Volume 2" by BHrian Loomes, a Louis Beaver is listed as a watchmaker in Manchester in the period 1848-1851. An earlier entry is for a William Beaver, at Wigan, in the 1820s, perhaps a relative. It may also be the case that the watchmaker, Louis Beaver of Manchester, is the same Manchester Beaver who lived c.1819-1875 and whose son Isidor Beaver went to Australia and practised as an architect.

The clockrepairrochdale.com online blog also has a list of 600 Manchester clock and watch makers, and this includes the names of both Louis Beaver and a Marcus Beaver. In terms of watches marked, Beaver, an open faced gold-cased watch by L Beaver, Manchester was sold by auction recently and I came across a decent online photograph of it briefly before it slipped "out of my hands" so to speak. If you are prepared to subscribe to clockswatches.com online, you will be able to access a little more information about Louis and Marcus Beaver of Manchester, but there is a distinct lack of useful references to the Beaver watch connection.

A final route of entry may be through a Manchester retailer of silver wares and gold jewellery, now Beaverbrooks, which originally comprised a partnershiop between the three "Adlestone" brothers, Isaac, Maurice and Harry. The shop illustrated here below would seem to be that of Maurice Beaver, in Manchester, before the firm united and became Beaverbrooks, specialising in gold jewellery and diamonds. Interestingly, there are silver wares into the 1950s that are marked Beaver Manchester or Beaver Ltd, Manchester. This Beaver/Beaverbrook lead might be a falso one however, and I don't know if the partnership had anything to do with making or selling watches.










(pic from content.beaverbrooks.co.uk)

I do apologise for my failure to really give any solid information about your watch and who made it. Clearly Louis Beaver of Manchester is the most likely contender as the watchmaker who produced your half hunter, and the date would probably be in about the third quarter of the 19th century. As for scrapping the watch, I myself would not put it in the melting pot, paertly because it may turn out that Louis Beaver and other members of his family may have played an interesting role in regional British watchmaking


----------



## Daveyboyz (Mar 9, 2016)

I don't recognise the marks (so I can't date it) its possible that AF might refer to Alfred Fridlander (1840-1928) who was a distinguished Coventry watchmaker....(he had several sponsors marks registered AF and A.F) Though without a hallmark it was illegal to sell any item as gold (as is equally true today, auction houses just listing things as "yellow gold metal" and allowing people to make their own decision) The stamps don't seem to have a date letter, and don't look like duty marks...

The wire lugs on the sides are a conversion to allow a strap to be attached and the watch worn on the wrist.


----------



## davidcxn (Nov 4, 2010)

Can't add much to the information already given. Regarding the time setting the crown isn't designed to "pull out" as would be expected. The small "pin" next to the crown has to be depressed and held in, the crown can then be used to set the time.

I've seen these type of "pin set" watches dating from the latter part of the 19th century to the early years of the 20th century. It's a nice looking watch but a watchmaker would be needed to assess the mechanical faults and the viability of restoration.


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Many thanks. I didn't want to vandalise the watch by ripping the works out in case some folk wanted them for restoration

The only other thing I am interested in is the "18K" mark which I would normally take to be from the USA but the retailer? Beaver (of) Manchester being UK. Were the cases or the complete watches imported, please?

TIA

Vigman


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks everybody. I had got to the possible Beaverbrook connection but the other information was fascinating .

I also tried depressing the pin and the hands move slightly but that mechanism has obviously jammed.

TIA

Vigman


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

I have just looked under my best jeweller's loop and the hallmark on the right hand side of the front case photo is a classical (Roman/Greek) head in profile facing left.

Vigman


----------



## davidcxn (Nov 4, 2010)

The head in profile could be the Swiss "Helvetia" mark that they used for 18ct gold.

This link may be of help as it covers some background on Swiss hallmarks along with an image of the Helvetia mark Switzerland used.

http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/swisshallmarks.php


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks again. I'm pretty good on foreign hallmarks as I have dealt in French and Russian silver but had not seen this particular head before. There is also a French and a Dutch left facing silhouette used on earlier 18ct/750 but Swiss and watches seems to make sense! When I had the inspection glass out I looked at the enamel and it is very good work.

I would normally have used my Ebay account but as it is the charity's and not mine don't want to risk a possibility of loss or further damage in postage or having to return and refund for any reason.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the ratio of gold to total weight (32g), please? I read quite a few articles and 38% seemed to come up as a minimum. If so, at today's price of £23.63 per gram for 18ct this would be 10gr gold so £230 which seems rather high to me. Mind you, even 5 grams is over the £100 which would please the charity!

As I have tens, possible hundreds of watches, in storage which I could discuss, I maybe ought to wait until my 50 posts then I could put it up for sale here!?

TIA

Vigman


----------



## Daveyboyz (Mar 9, 2016)

That % sounds remarkably close to the % of gold in 9ct...

It is impossible to say what the gold weights as a percentage of the total weight... from watch to watch heavier or lighter gauge metal is used on the case and the innards vary in weight too. Some books give examples of different size and shape watches and list gold weights as an approximation for the cases, obviously the weight varies with the purity of the gold also with 18ct being heavier than 14ct or 9ct...

The only sure-fire way to accurately know is by pulling the movement out and weighing it.

As for estimation I guess experience of buying sheet materials must teach you that the weight of flat sheets of material is always more than you expect it to be and for that reason I would be going heavy on any estimation... it might be worth you looking at the prices realised in auction for broken 18ct pocket watches (do forget to add sales expenses to the price) and find what people are paying on average, this will give you a rough guide to what people are willing to pay for such a thing.


----------



## Always"watching" (Sep 21, 2013)

Just a quick addendum to my earlier post, now that I have read the other posts on this thread.

I would certainly not want the watch to be scrapped, if only for the lovely engine-tuned and enamelled half-hunter outer case and the unusual wire lugs that clearly indicate that this was an early prototype wristwatch. I do believe that the watch may have been first and foremost designed for the wrist because there were other ways of adapting pocket watches to the wrist which did not require the addition of lugs that might have been construed as ugly.

I feel pretty certain that the watch was imported into this country, probably from Switzerland, either as a piece or in the form of the movement plus the case separately, and the input from Beaver of Manchester would have been either assembly and retail or merely retail, perhaps with a strap being sold separately..

Dating this watch is a problem but I feel sure that it pre-dates 1910 and I would place it within the early phase of general wristwatch development at the turn of the 19th century.


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks again. I'm going to hold off scrapping for the reason Always Watching gives.

Even for my own gold/silver items I am wary of using EBay as apparently there is a trend now of items even being signed for but being claimed as lost in the post to eBay who then refund the fraudulent buyer who ends up with the item for free!

I can't afford to reimburse the charity if this happened to this watch.

I have a trade account at a local auction but I don't think they will accept this as it is not working? Although thinking about it the gold buyers will pay at least £100 which is about the minimum lot value here.

TIA

Vigman


----------



## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

Nice watch, it is certainly viable once repaired it could be sold on, i have seen some cases like these come in at around 7 or 8 grammes, as long as the balance is good then it becomes less of a risk to purchase and repair.

I see your already on 19 posts, once you get to 50 send me a message if you wish, i'm more interested in any tools you may have for sell, but by all means put them on here so everyone can have a fair chance and a look


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks again. I will take you up on that offer Harryblakes7.

In an advertising forum I am in, a seller can ask for a best offer from members. Is that allowed here?

Also it might be an iPad thing but when I go to reply to the latest in the thread it fills the reply submission form with your last posting?

Vigman


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Well it looks like this is my 50th post so I will not only be able to ditch Google photos but also contact Harryblakes7 in a private message!

Thanks

Vigman

PS I can't write a private message to harryblakes7 as I get an error message. Do I use the public message system even for payment and details?


----------



## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

It'll be your 51st post that ACTUALLY lets you PM Jon! (It's the way the forum counts 'em :laugh: )


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Ah, thanks! Maybe my reply to you might be my cheeky 51st posting!!!

(Nope, I still can't PM Harryblakes7!?) Error message says: harryblakes7 cannot receive messages.

Vigman


----------



## deano1956 (Jan 27, 2016)

vigman, don't think its like a switch as in after 50 or 51 posts you can do/access all, it may take a day or two to fully open up the site after the 51 st post.

deanoi


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks and Interesting. In limited groups I've set up when an IT Manager everything was switch activated as it would have been impossible to manage manually. Maybe there is some sort of automatic check and update on permissions every so many hours or days?o

I would certainly like to get away from the Google photo terms and conditions to "host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works, communicate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute" those photos

vigman


----------



## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

If Blake 7 has a full PM mailbox, it may give out that message - - not sure, drop a PM to Mach or another Mod for clarification :yes:

If you like send me a PM and see if that goes thru.


----------



## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

mel said:


> If Blake 7 has a full PM mailbox, it may give out that message - - not sure, drop a PM to Mach or another Mod for clarification :yes:
> 
> If you like send me a PM and see if that goes thru.


 my box is empty Mel 

i just sent vigman a message 

Think he's probably down the pub, wish i was instead of plastering a kitchen out!! :laugh:


----------



## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Fine HB7, just wondered. How is ORAC this weather?, can you not get him to magic up a "proper" plasterer for you, one of those eight armed aliens would get it done in no time :notworthy:


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks everyone. Wish I was down the pub (I had to give up drinking 9 years ago after acute pancreatitis put me in intensive care!)
I have now replied to a private message from Harryblakes7!

Vigman


----------



## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

mel said:


> Fine HB7, just wondered. How is ORAC this weather?, can you not get him to magic up a "proper" plasterer for you, one of those eight armed aliens would get it done in no time :notworthy:


 Thanks Mel, ORAC is currently calculating the next 6 winning lottery numbers! The Liberator is off touring the Somerset coastline!! Am just waiting for the plaster to dry, so i will beam down to the beach and see what the local aliens are like!! 

Fitting a new kitchen is a big job, so am increasing speed to standard by 12........

( please groan appropriately .......... ) :laugh:


----------



## Xantiagib (Apr 22, 2005)

an observation on the condition of the mechanicals; you mention it doesn't wind anymore, just backwards - seems its fully would and can't unwind.

looking at the centre wheel pinion (the one that is usually unjeweled) you can see in the photos that this is badly corroded - causing no doubt, the mechanism to seize up so it can't unwind.

needs a full service as corrosion may be present elsewhere - need to factor that into costs and then sadly the scrap value begins to look more promising to a charity shop...


----------



## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

harryblakes7 said:


> Thanks Mel, ORAC is currently calculating the next 6 winning lottery numbers! The Liberator is off touring the Somerset coastline!! Am just waiting for the plaster to dry, so i will beam down to the beach and see what the local aliens are like!!
> 
> Fitting a new kitchen is a big job, so am increasing speed to standard by 12........
> 
> ( please groan appropriately .......... ) :laugh:


 Not a groan from me, loved it! And as for Sexy (but SEVERE) Servilan - - Phowah! (Nobody under thirty has a clue what we're on about I suspect! ) Mrs Mel has the short hair, but alas it's white, and she's never been menacing - - nowadays it's all memories 

Sorry for the topic Hijack Jon and XantiaGib makes a valid point as well!


----------



## ZenArcade (Aug 17, 2016)

Bit late to this but I do collect pocket watches including ladies fob watches and I would plead you NOT to scrap this for the gold! One of the reasons I do collect them is because I hate to see these old watches butchered for scrap gold when they can be put back to use with a service and a good clean. The same goes for silver pocket and fob watches and gold and silver wrist watches. There are a few trusted folk I go to for watch repairs who do a fantastic job and one who can clean up a dial and hands and any repairs that need doing too in fact I have a couple of pocket watches ready to be sent off for service.

This one looks lovely and is one I would certainly take so I would advise keep, clean and service or if not sell but be reasonable enough to realise that it needs work and any buyer will have to factor that in.


----------



## harryblakes7 (Oct 1, 2010)

ZenArcade said:


> Bit late to this but I do collect pocket watches including ladies fob watches and I would plead you NOT to scrap this for the gold! One of the reasons I do collect them is because I hate to see these old watches butchered for scrap gold when they can be put back to use with a service and a good clean. The same goes for silver pocket and fob watches and gold and silver wrist watches. There are a few trusted folk I go to for watch repairs who do a fantastic job and one who can clean up a dial and hands and any repairs that need doing too in fact I have a couple of pocket watches ready to be sent off for service.
> 
> This one looks lovely and is one I would certainly take so I would advise keep, clean and service or if not sell but be reasonable enough to realise that it needs work and any buyer will have to factor that in.


 Hi Zen, don't worry i fully intend to renovate the watch and bring it back to its former glory 



mel said:


> Not a groan from me, loved it! And as for Sexy (but SEVERE) Servilan - - Phowah! (Nobody under thirty has a clue what we're on about I suspect! ) Mrs Mel has the short hair, but alas it's white, and she's never been menacing - - nowadays it's all memories
> 
> Sorry for the topic Hijack Jon and XantiaGib makes a valid point as well!


 No problem Mel, i was actually going to mention Servelan........ or Commisioner Sleer.......... lol.......... wow what a delicious delectable Lady............ Can give me good dreams and nightmares at the same time....... lol......... She was off the scale.........


----------



## ZenArcade (Aug 17, 2016)

Good stuff. Do you plan to do the repairs yourself? Post up some pictures when it's done.


----------



## vigman (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks everyone. As someone who has restored many things (except watches!) I'm really pleased that Harryblakes7 is going to restore the half hunter. It is quite odd to be a newbie in this forum where in many others (with different IDs) I have 1000+ postings. However, ill health and more time indoors means items I buy are going to be light and portable and easily stored!

Out of interest no-one replied to my postings on the Timor, Envoy, Timex x 2 and 'unknown maker' postings........were they THAT awful 8) ?

TIA

Vigman


----------

