# Grandfather Clock Project.



## Roger the Dodger

Some of you who visit the clock and pocket watch forum may be aware that I wanted to strip and clean my old grandfather clock, so, encouraged by several members, some of whom have kindly offered help and advice, I am posting this as an ongoing project which I hope will be of interest to other like minded members.

So here we go.... The first thing I have done is to set the hands to twelve o'clock and mark with light scribe lines, the positions of some of the wheels relative to each other. I have also taken loads of pics to help with reassembly, some of which I'll post here.

The front of the movement.










This mark shows me where to line this pin up on the wheel. There are more scribe marks on other wheels.










Here, all the components on the front plate bar the minute wheel and its pressure plate behind, and the gathering pallet have been removed from their studs and the order of removal noted.










Here are some of the parts laid out on paper and numbered.


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## Roger the Dodger

Here, the front plate has been unpinned and removed from the pillars.










These are the top and bottom of the movement for reassembly reference.



















Here, the barrels have been removed.










Just one wheel and the fly left.


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## Roger the Dodger

Here's where I ran into the first problem. Most of the pivots are in fairly good condition, but one, the centre wheel, is competely worn away. This was one of the first questions Clockworks asked me when he saw the movement, and at the time there didn't appear to be anything wrong.........but have a look at this!

The front end....perfectly servicable....










The rear end...that takes the full load of the weight....Oh dear!










I'm going to file that pivot off, drill the arbour and press in a new pin. Here's the arbour with the damaged pivot filed off.










In order to drill an accurately centered hole in the absence of a lathe, I drilled a pice of 6mm mild steel plate with a 3mm drill and chamfered the edge. This is the exact size of the arbour. Now with the wheel clamped into the hole, I lightly drilled from the other side with the same 3mm drill to make an accurate centre dot.

Here's the plate with the hole (the chamfer is to accomodate to shoulder of the pinion protruding through the wheel)










This is everything clamped together and the centre dot being drilled.


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## Roger the Dodger

Finally, I had to drill a 1.5mm hole in the end of the arbour...this was easier said than done because the arbour was very hard and my drill wouldn't touch it. After a bit of thought, I removed the wheel from the pinion (it's an interferance fit) and heated the end of the arbour till it was cherry red and let it cool down. This softened the steel and it then drilled easily. After it was drilled, I re-heated it and quenched it in oil to re harden. The wheel was pressed back on.

Here's the wheel with it's new pivot (it's a piece of broken drill 1.5mm Dia). I'll cut this to length and fix it with some engineering adhesive, and it'll never come out. Because it's drill steel, it should be about as hard as the arbour.










That's as far as I've got at the moment, more to come soon. Any hints, tips and comments gratefully encouraged!


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## NickD

Great stuff Roger and I like your improvisation. Looking forward to Chapter II.


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## mel

:notworthy: Rodger! :yes:

Keep on stripping -=- Ooops, that doesn't sound right, but you know what I mean! :man_in_love:

The wear on the pivot is a classic example of the old engineering adage that the softer material will wear out the harder material first! :yes:


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## davkt

Excellent photo story so far, good luck with the project!


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## clockworks

Well done for getting that centre pivot sorted. The jig that you made uses the same principle as the proper re-pivoting tool I use with my lathe.

BTW, if you need to drill any more arbors, a tungsten carbide drill bit will go through hardened steel with softening.

Looking at the photos, the warning pin on the 4th wheel looks badly worn. You'll need to clean this up, or replace it.

What's the state of the pallets?


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## a6cjn

Great stuff Roger, I love threads like this. :thumbsup:

The pictures are a real bonus and really helps me understand what's happening.

Looking forward to the next installment

When you get the chance, could you post a pic of the case please?

Chris


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## Roger the Dodger

Hi guys...thanks for all your positive comments. I haven't been able to do much today (I'm spending about an hour in the workshop after work each day) as I didn't finish till late, but I did finish the centre wheel, then started looking at the lifting piece and wondering why all that solder was on there. I soon found out when I filed the solder off the back...the end was cracked. I decided to fabricate a new arm from brass (same as the original) and sourced a piece from an old brass barrel bolt. This was filed to shape, and the next job will be to cut it to length, clean the mating surfaces and solder the new arm over the old one. I've taken some pics of the 4th wheel and the pallets for Clockworks and a couple of the case for Chris.

The finished centre wheel and new pivot. This now fits perfectly in the plates and spins beautifully.










The lifting piece and all the solder, and then the back, where the split can be seen.



















The old brass bolt and the piece I cut from it.










Top filed to fit round stem.


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## Roger the Dodger

Here's the lifting piece and the new brass arm (It's too wide in this pic, I've got to file it to the same width as the existing), and the next pic shows how it fits.



















Here's the 4th wheel and warning pin...I don't think it's worn, its just bent, though it does make contact with the return on the lifting piece.










The pallets look OK....I can't feel any ridges or wear with my fingernail.


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## Roger the Dodger

Here's the insides of the pallets...they seem fairly smooth.



















Finally, tonight, a couple of pics of the case for Chris.



















See you soon!


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## clockworks

Looks like someone bent the warning pin to compensate for the damaged lifting piece. Straighten it out, then align the new arm that you're making so that it all works properly.

The pallets look pretty good, but the "double" wear pattern on the faces suggests that someone has moved the pallet arbor or escape wheel at some point, or you've got excessive end shake on one or the other. After you've investigated that, give the pallet face a quick stoning, and polish to a mirror finish with 2000+ grit wet-or-dry.

This is looking good!


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## Roger the Dodger

Thanks for that advice Clockworks...(what's your name mate...I can't keep calling you Clockworks!) I'll certainly address all that you've said. Just a thought...if that lifting piece arm has lost a tiny bit from the length (we know it's already split at the end) then the lifting pin won't lift it as high as it should go. As you say, maybe someone in the past bent the warning pin so it would catch the lifting piece in a slightly lower position.

I'll leave the new arm a bit longer and see if it makes any difference...I can always shorten it if I have to. Cheers! :thumbsup:


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## clockworks

I'm Steve - now added to sig!

This is why I enjoy repairing old clocks - seat of the pants "engineering", borderline bodging, and finding easy ways of doing things! If it looks right, it is right. Repairing watches generally means cleaning, possibly throwing in a few new parts. With clocks, you get your hands dirty and make the parts yourself. Totally different discipline.

I reckon you'll be down the local boot fair in a few weeks, looking for your next project. Bringing someone else's basket case back to life is addictive.


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## Roger the Dodger

I totally agree, Steve...I guess there may be people who would throw their hands up in horror at some of my methods, but at the end of the day they work. This may be an old movement, but every thing I do to it becomes part of its provenance, same as all those other DIY repairs...they're part of its history. When its all cleaned, and the brasswork's polished it'll look great.....it might not go.....but it will look great. I spent 10 years in the maintainance department of the famous compressor manufacturers, Compair Broomwade and when a problem arose, you just got over it, by any means possible. I'm sure a few clock parts won't be a problem....the next thing to do will be to make a new rack tail to replace the one that's held on with wire and solder, and make a new rack spring to replace the safety pin!!


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## mel

Rodger, Steve, the true spirit of our forum - two guys batting stuff back and forth and becoming friends who may never meet - but friends nevertheless! :yes:

And the rest of us get to witness this happening :notworthy: - with hopefully a working finished project at the end of it all! I'm in suspense for the next episode :yes:

*Wonderful!*


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## clockworks

It'll go, Rodger - you've fixed the most serious problem already! The rack tail and lifting piece will probably take a bit of trial and error to get right, but that's just a case of taking your time. BTW, it might be easier to buy a blank rack tail, rather than making one. It needs to be "springy", as it has to move past the snail if the strike train fails to run at 12. A rigid tail will stop the clock if the strike train doesn't run or isn't wound up. That's why the original tail broke off - it repeatedly stopped the clock, and the owner forced the hands to correct the time. Eventually the tail fractured.

Similarly, the lifting piece probably broke because the owner turned the hands backwards repeatedly, something that these clocks weren't designed to put up with.

You mention polishing - this is the one thing that will cause throwing up of hands in horror by horologists and conservators alike. Polishing removes metal, slowly destroying the object, and is frowned upon these days. It's your clock, so it's up to you what you do with it, but the current thinking is that a repairer should bring the movement back close to it's original finish, and a clock like this wasn't polished when new.

The only time I polish movements now is when they are visible in normal use - carriage clocks, 4-glass clocks, and the back plates of French "drum" movements.

If you do decide to polish it, I won't hold it against you!


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## a6cjn

Thanks for the pics Roger

For odd pieces of metal, have a look here, very helpful and will supply small quantaties.

Have a google for stuff called Micromesh - it's magic and ideal for cleaning and polishing ( works on watch crystals as well)

Looking forward to the next installment :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Chris


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## Roger the Dodger

Thanks once again for all your continued support and advice........Chris, that looks like a great site for odd metal supplies. Steve...you may have put my mind at rest, cos when I soldered the new rack tail on, I was thinking it wasn't rigid enough because I could quite easily flex it backwards and forwards...as for polishing...I don't know. I would quite like it to look like the movement on the front of Eric Smith's book, so I may just give the parts a gentle rub to give them a slight sheen...you certainly won't need sunglasses to look at it!...at the end of the day you don't see the movement because it's stuck behind the dial...........

This is what I've managed to achieve today...the lifting piece with its new arm (slightly longer than the old one so I can play with it) soldered in place.










The rack with the bodged tail....










The newly made tail (from that old barrel bolt again) compared to the old. Sorry about the filthy thumb nail...I have been working all day you know!










The tail soldered in place.










The new brass bits look shiny because I've rubbed them with wire wool to get rid of the solder flux stains....this is probably as bright as they'll be....don't forget, I haven't cleaned anything yet........that's it for today...I'll have a break tomorrow so probably no more pics 'till next week....thanks for looking!


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## sparrow

cracking project Rodger :notworthy:

Something I'd like to do when I get my own place, buy a tired old grandmother clock and bring it back to life (without the aid of quartz! :tongue_ss: )

I'm looking forward to the next entry


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## Roger the Dodger

Steve...a quick thought...and feel free to shoot me down in flames if need be







...the new rack tail is fairly springy...as you said it needs to be. The snail has a bevel where the 12 o'clock part meets the 1 o'clock part (as you know). If I file a corresponding bevel on the return of the rack tail, should the two connect, the one should ride up over the other, shouldn't it?.....


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## clockworks

Rather than a bend at the end of the tail, longcase clocks normally have a straight tail, with a pin to contact the snail. The leading edge of the pin is filed at an angle, so that it can ride up the step. Link with pics: here

The way you've done it will work, but you'll have to fiddle about setting it up correctly, and eventually it'll fail again. I'd start again, doing it the way the guy shows in the link. If you don't have any hard (springy) brass sheet, you can buy a rack tail blank for a few quid from Meadows & Passmore. This part is vital in getting the clock to strike correctly, so it's worth spending a bit of time on it.

I've made tails from scratch, and also used blanks. Given the choice, I'd rather spend a few quid on a blank, and save the time it takes cutting one from sheet.

On the subject of polishing, I think a soft, satin, sheen is ideal for parts made from rolled brass sheet. Scotchbrite pads are ideal for this. Might not work on the plates, which are probably made from cast sheet.


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## Roger the Dodger

Good call Steve, and thanks for that link...very interesting. The reason I made the other tail like that was because I was basically copying what was already there. The pin method looks much more sensible, and I notice that the pics in Eric Smith's book all show a pin in the rack tail. I'm going to order the lines, oil and pegwood tonight so I'll add in a rack tail too. I'm going to try that cleaning solution this weekend and see what happens.

Have a good one! :thumbsup:


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## clockworks

Are you getting some bushes? Looking at the state of the rear centre pivot before you replaced it, it really needs to be bushed. The clock will probably run OK, but you'll end up knackering the pivot again in short order.


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## Roger the Dodger

I'll get some bushes if I really need to after I've cleaned the holes out. I can't see any evidence of bushes in the plates at the moment and I think that plates themselves are fairly hard brass. Funnily enough, the new pivot that I put in must be slightly larger in diameter than the old one because it fitted in the hole perfectly with barely any side shake. The old one was just under 1/16 of an inch at the widest point...I bet it started out as a 1/16" and had worn.


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## clockworks

If your new pivot is a firm fit in the hole, you'll probably get away with broaching it out to be a nice sloppy fit. I tend to work by eye, but with a small LC pivot, I test the shake by how big an angle the arbor will lean side to side, aiming for about 10 degrees either side of perpendicular. If you've got less than that currently, there's room to broach. Get a set of 5-sided cutting broaches. When I first started, I bought a set of 6, ranging from 1.5mm to 3.9mm (measured at the widest part). This covered 90% of the holes I worked on. I added extra individual broaches as I needed them.


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## Roger the Dodger

Hi everyone...have today ordered the new lines, pegwood (for cleaning out the pivot holes)Windles medium clock and turret oil and a new comma footed rack spring (to replace the safety pin bodge) Steve...I couldn't find a rack tail blank at either Cousins or M&P, so I'll have to make another one after all...if I make a 'waisted' one, like the one in that link, that'll add to the flexibility. My only concern is the pin. I noticed that the pin in the link has a shoulder to enable rivetting...not quite sure how to produce that without a lathe...any ideas? I suppose I could make an interferance fit pin and put a dab of 'the green stuff' (Loctite green) on before fitting. I also noticed that Cousins do a product called 'quick pivots', which are basically a cup with a pivot on the end....I presume you cut the arbour to length and Locktite the cup onto the arbour. Any good...or just a cheap and easy bodge?

The parts have been soaking in the cleaning solution all day yesterday and the crud that's come off is unbelievable...going to give everything a gentle scrub today. :thumbsup:


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## clockworks

Quick pivots are intended for use on really cheap clocks, where the customer doesn't want to pay to have the job done properly, or where the cost of repair would be more than the value of the clock. I guess they can make sense in a commercial repair shop, but only when time really is money. They have no place in an amateur/hobby workshop, or in any clock that's worth more than a few pounds. Just my opinion. It's a bodge too far for me!

Try HERE for a rack tail.

I use mild steel for making pins like that. A good source is the largest size taper pins, used for securing dials, etc. It should be possible to spin the pin up in a drill press (or hand drill clamped to your bench) and cut the shoulder with a small file. You could even hold the pin in a pin vice, and file the shoulder by hand. As long as it's a snug fit in the tail, it doesn't really matter if it's not perfectly round.

After cleaning, I scrub parts in hot water and Fairy, using an old toothbrush. Parts are then rinsed in clean water, before a final rinse in distilled water (from my dehumidifier). The use of distilled water greatly reduces the chance of rusting while the parts are waiting to be dried.


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## a6cjn

We need more pics Roger :artist: :grin:

And Steve I've really enjoyed the links you've posted

As Steve suggests, shouldered pins can be made using a drill press and a file and a tip from my modelmaking days is to anneal the tip before riveting by heating it to cherry red and allow it to air cool.

Anyhooo back to the next installment :good:

Chris


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## Roger the Dodger

Thanks for all that, chaps...have ordered two tails from that link Steve....one to use, and one 'just in case'! I'll get some tapered pins and make up a tail pin as per yours and Chris's suggestion. Been to the library today and found a cracking book called 'Finding and Restoring Longcase Clocks' by Antony Ells....goes into fantastic detail about all aspects of repair for both the case and movement and illustrated with photos rather than line drawings. Some excellent pics of a pivot being trued in a Jacot bed (although that's a bit excessive for a one off job!) and gives all the correct nomenclature for the parts...that pivot I replaced wasn't the centre wheel, but the third wheel.

Have scrubbed all the parts, rinsed and dried everything. Another job I need to address is that broken pin in the date wheel. I need to punch/drill the old stub out and put in a new one. The old one looks as though it was rectangular in section, though I don't see why a round one shouldn't work....I could probably use one of those pins I'm getting for the rack tail :dntknw: Anyway here're some pics of todays goings on.

This is the state of the cleaning solution after a days soaking...this was obviously clear to start off with!










The parts after cleaning...as Steve pointed out in an earlier post, they are still stained, but they are now de-greased and more pleasant to handle.




























Here's the date wheel with the broken pin (@ 3 o'clock)


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## Roger the Dodger

Here're the plates as they came out of the cleaning solution, stained, but oil free.










And in this pic, the front plate on the right has had a gentle rub with a scotchbrite pad. It seems to have removed most of the staining.










To be continued..................


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## clockworks

The "scotchbrited" plate looks fine - I'd be happy sending a longcase back to a customer like that. If you want to try removing more staining chemically, try warming your ammonia solution up to 50 or 60 degrees.

The naming of parts can be a bit iffy, that's why I tend to use descriptive terms, rather than just numbering the wheels.

In an 8-day spring clock, that would indeed be the 3rd wheel - the numbering starts at the barrel (first wheel), and goes up the train. However, in an 8-day clock, there's a wheel between the barrel and the centre wheel. In a longcase, the centre wheel is driven directly by the barrel. Is it the 3rd wheel (by naming convention), or the second wheel (by the physical layout)? Confusing stuff.

The date wheel pin needs to match the teeth on the date ring, so, if you use a round pin, you'll probably need to file it to a wedge shaped profile. Another fiddly job, as you'll struggle to see what' happening with the dial in place. An added frustration is the date ring is unlikely to run true - if the pin engages correctly on one side of the ring, it'll miss or jam on the other side. Somewhere, there'll be a sweet spot where everything works properly. Plenty of patience needed here.

Looking at the fly now that it's clean, I can't make out if the friction spring is steel or brass? It needs to be brass, as you don't want two similar metals rubbing.

There also appears to be a fair bit of "mushrooming" on the rear pivot of the escape arbor. That'll need sorting, and the hole bushing. If the rest of the pivot's surface is true, you'll probably be able to file the end down using a drill to spin the arbor. It's important, for good timekeeping, that the escape and pallet arbors both run true, parallel to each other, and at a constant distance from each other.

I guess you are beginning to see why clock repairers don't get rich!


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## Roger the Dodger

Damn...and I thought I'd be able to retire next year! :derisive: Yep....the fly spring is brass. Looking at the top pic of the cleaned parts, the three going train wheels are in order (bar the great wheel on the barrel). The one I re-pivoted is in the middle, so I guess that is the third wheel in the train. Looks like I've got a fair bit to do this week.


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## clockworks

Sorry Rodger - I thought that you'd re-pivoted the arbor that the minute hand fits onto - that's usually the one that wears the most. Looking back at the pics on page 1, it's now clear that I wasn't paying attention, and you did, indeed, repair the 3rd wheel pivot.

I wonder why that one failed first?


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## Roger the Dodger

Sorry guys ...been too busy at work to do any thing constructive for the last couple of days. Have given everything a gentle rub (oo-er missus!) to get rid of years of staining, and today (Tues) all my bits arrived in the post. :clapping: Steve.....I relented and ordered a set of broaches and some bushes. They were only cheap broaches of t'bay (not Bergeon), but they should suffice for a one off. I've cleaned the date ring, the back of the dial and all the rollers that carry the date ring. Hopefully, the pin for the rack tail, re-bushing (pics to follow) and the new pin in the date wheel will be done this week and reasembly can commence.

Thanks for all your continued support and invaluable advice, Rog. :notworthy:


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## clockworks

My first set of broaches were cheapies - they had very thin black plastic handles moulded in place - and most of them are still going strong.

Hope you didn't clean the back of the dial too vigourously? The most I ever do is wipe off any oil with a piece of kitchen towel. To me, it's patina - not sure on the "official" line here, but I had a couple of problems when I first started, so I leave dials well alone.

BTW, I've just started work on a 1920's German 3-train longcase that a customer picked up at auction. Some really "nice" bodges for me to sort out. For instance, the chime warning piece had broken off, so a replacement had been soldered on with the lever in situ - flux everywhere!


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## Roger the Dodger

Nice to hear you've got a job on the go, Steve. I removed the rack tail that I made and replaced it with one of the new springy ones. I've made the pin and riveted it on the tail and drilled the hole at the other end so it fits tightly over the rack pipe, so I can adjust the position. Once I've got that set, I'll solder it in place. I have taken pics, but have had visitors tonight so I'll post them tomorrow....it's too late now. All I've done to the back of the dial is remove the old oil with some solvent, and cleaned the support rollers. The colour or patina hasn't changed a bit. Tomorrow I was going to have go at rebushing the scape wheel hole on the back plate, though I'm worried I may have purchased bushes that are too big. In one of my books, it says to use the smallest bush possible to do the job..ie. that fits within the oil sink. The bushes I got are 2.9mm at the narrow end and 3.0mm at the wide end with a 0.9mm hole. I reasoned that after broaching to approx 1.5mm for the pivot, that would still leave plenty of 'meat' for a bearing surface. I'll think I'll hold off doing that till I've seen your reply (sorry for imposing on you!)

Rog.


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## clockworks

No danger of imposing, Roger - I'm happy to help!

Cleaning the oil from the back of the dial is fine, and I guess you needed to clean the supports for the date ring to have any chance of getting it to work reliably.

Did you get Bergeon bushes, or KWM? I've only ever used Bergeon. I try and fit bushes that are between 1mm and 1.5mm larger than the hole, so that the wall thickness is around 0.5mm after broaching. Any less, and the bush can work loose. Any more, and you are making extra work for yourself. A 3mm bush would be my choice, too.

There are many differing views on how to fit a bush, so there's not really a correct way. The most important thing is that when you broach the hole to fit the bush, you draw the hole back to the correct centre. Worn holes will almost always be oval, so you need to work out which end of the oval is the true centre. Apply sideways pressure to the broach as you are cutting, so that you take more material from the unworn side. This will draw the new hole back to the correct position. Second most important thing is that the bush is a snug fit. If you broach the hole too big, fit the next size bush.

I always broach from the inside of the plate, and tap the bush in from the inside, supporting the outside of the plate on a piece of wood. Once the bush is flush with the inside, I turn the plate over, support it on a small anvil, and rivet the bush in place with a rounded punch. One smart tap with a 4oz hammer is enough to ensure that it stays in place.

File the inside of the plate to ensure that the bush is perfectly flush, and finish with fine wet-or-dry paper. I put a strip of masking tape over the bush to prevent marking the plate with the file.

I file off any excess bush from the outside of the plate, then broach out the hole to give a nice sloppy fit for the arbor - a 10 degree lean either side of perpendicular is about right. Broach from both sides, a little at a time.

The oil sink can be re-cut using a rose cutter, oil sink cutter, or countersinking bit, and a very small countersink is also done on the inside - just enough to knock off the sharp corner. Finally, the broach is used again from both sides, very gently, to remove any burrs.

Fit the arbor between the plates, and spin the wheel. Spin again with the front plate uppermost, wait for the wheel to stop, then flip the movement over. The arbor should slip down and hit the bottom plate with a clean "click". Do this again with the rear plate uppermost. If the arbor sticks in any of these tests, open the hole up slightly.

All this can sound daunting, but, with practice, you can fit a bush in less than 10 minutes.


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## Roger the Dodger

Brilliant, Steve....thanks for that....will have a go later today. The bushes are English tapered clock bushes from Cousins...No.3

these ones

pics later. :thumbsup:


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## mel

Keep this thread coming guys, I can picture most of this in my mind, whether I would have the patience, skills (and eyesight) to ever do it myself is another matter entirely. *Mods,* I think this might turn out to be very suitable to be a pinned item on the Clock Forum? :yes:


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## Roger the Dodger

Today I rebushed the escape wheel hole in the back plate. After truing the hole with a round needle file, I used progressivly bigger broaches from the inside of the plate until the bush fitted in the hole for half its length. I put the plate on a block of wood then used a flat punch to drive the bush flush with the surface of the plate. The plate was turned over and placed on the solid end of the vice anvil and a round punch used to rivet the bush.

Broaching the escape wheel hole.










The bush in the hole before punching flush (sorry about the pic, but my little camera has a job focusing on shiny objects)










The mushroomed end of the escape wheel pivot was trued up with a file and burnished. The new pivot was just under 1.5mm diameter. Again, progressivly larger broaches were used to open the hole in the bush until the pivot just fitted. I gave the hole another couple of turns with the broach and the wheel fitted easily. I put the front plate on and spun the wheel to check it was free and that it had a little end shake. All seemed OK. I then used a small countersink to create an oil sink. Everthing was then de-burred.

Broaching the bush to take the pivot.










The rebushed hole with its oil sink.










Yesterday, I made the new rack tail and pin. I made a reduced tail on the pin using Steve's idea of holding a large clock pin in my drill and using a file to 'turn' a tail 1.5mm OD (OD= outside diameter).

Pin in chuck.


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## Roger the Dodger

Using the edge of a fine file to create the tail on the pin. This will be riveted into the rack tail.










The finished pin.










I drilled a 3.5mm hole in one end of the tail to make a tight fit on the rackpipe so I can adjust the position of the tail before finally soldering in place. The pin was cut off at a shallow angle, to assist riding up the snail step if need be. After a rub with fine wet and dry to de-burr, the pin was riveted into the tail, making sure the slope on the pin was the right way round.

The pin riveted to the rack tail (springy brass)










The tail on the rack.










That's it for today. Will try to repair the pin in the calender wheel tomorrow.


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## a6cjn

Great stuff Roger :thumbup:

Might be nice to put all these pics in a slideshow when you've finished

Chris


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## Guest

a6cjn said:


> Great stuff Roger :thumbup:


Certainly!!!

Hugely impressed by this Roger!!!! :notworthy:


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## clockworks

Looking good, Roger. First class bushing job, and a great finish on the rack tail pin.

A tip for broaching: I find it a lot easier to control the broach if it has a handle, rather than using a tap wrench. I use small wooden file handles, driven and glued onto the tang.

I mark the handles with the maximum size hole that the broach can cut, which saves a lot of time. All the broaches that I use have a standard taper - 1mm in 10cm. If I want to fit a 3mm bush, I know that I can use my 3.3mm broach, and stop 30mm from the end. Same when opening the hole for the arbor - measure the arbor, and quickly broach the hole to a snug fit, then a couple of extra twists to get the sideshake correct.

For really large broaches - over 7mm - I use a tap wrench, as I can't get enough torque using a handle.


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## Roger the Dodger

Thanks for all the positive comments, chaps...they're really spurring me on! Steve, I totally concur with what you say about the handles for the broaches...I just didn't have any spare ones about, so used my mini tap wrench. However, it kept catching on the plate pillars, which was a bit of a nuisance...if I do more of this type of thing (and it's pretty addictive) then I'll invest in some proper handles. When I worked at Broomwade, the compressor makers, if you were caught using a file without a handle it was cause for diciplinary action, because of the risk of the file tang piercing your hand should it catch on the metal you were filing! We used to heat the tang up red hot in the welding shop and burn them into the handles....Ah..those were the days! Hopefully once the calender ring's sorted, re-assembly can commence and by the end of next week I should have a finished movement. :thumbsup:

The saga continues.............


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## clockworks

At school, our Des&Tech teacher drummed home the dangers of not using a handle. 40-odd years on, I still remember it.


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## Roger the Dodger

Feeling really pleased with myself today!  When I offered the calender wheel up the date ring on the dial, I could see straight away that the broken off pin in no way lined up with the teeth on the ring. Then I realised why that pin was square in section...there must have been a crank on there to turn the date ring. It would've had to be high enough to clear the hour wheel, snail and rack tail and make contact with the date ring teeth. Once I had this clear in my mind, I started on the constuction. First, I had to make a pin of the right length with a square on each end. This would prevent the crank from twisting out of position. I filed a tapered square on each end of the pin.










I cut a short length of brass plate, drilled a 1.5mm hole, and squared it with a square needle file. The pin was riveted to the plate.

Riveting the pin to the plate with a small ball pein hammer.










Then I made a pin for the other end in the same way that I did the one for the rack tail, and riveted that in place....though not before I had tried it for positioning in relation to the date ring teeth. The first hole I drilled for it was just a fraction out, so I drilled a new hole a bit (1mm) further back, and it worked perfectly.

The finished crank.










I tapped the tapered square into the hole in the calender wheel and the job was done.










Here are some pics of the calender wheel in place on the front plate. You can see how the crank pin had to be tall enough to clear everything else.


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## Roger the Dodger

Top view.










A view of the crank contacting the date ring teeth.










Finally, a couple of shots of how the rack tail pin rides up the snail if there's a problem with the striking. In the first pic, the step is approaching the pin, which hasn't moved out of the way due to the rack not being gathered up.










Now, the pin rides up the snail and avoids stopping the clock.










That's it for today....more to follow! :thumbsup:


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## Roger the Dodger

Today I did a test assembly to check everything was free and to see how hard it was to get the chime train set up. Before that I cleaned all the pivot holes with some 2mm pegwood, sharpened to a gentle taper to get all the crud out. Over a priod of time, dust and minute metal particles adhere to the oil and get driven into the soft brass by the much harder pivots, creating an 'emery paper' like lining to the holes. This is what then wears away the harder pivot leaving it like the one I had to replace. The wood is pushed into the hole and rotated to remove the dirt. The it's resharpened and the process repeated 'til it comes out clean.

Sharpened pegwood.










Cleaning the hole.










Crud on the stick.










Here's the movement as it was two weeks ago, and now. Can you spot the difference!


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## Roger the Dodger

Not much more to do now...wil continue next week....cheers!


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## clockworks

Good thinking about the cranked pin for the date ring - not seen one like that before. Most use a small date wheel that's pushed round by a pin on the snail/hour wheel pipe.


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## feenix

I've refrained from posting earlier, simply because everyone else was posting, but I can't avoid it any longer. This has to be one of the most interesting and informative threads this year. Keep up the good work, and thanks for taking the time to post as much info, and as many pictures as you have.


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## Roger the Dodger

Thanks for your kind comments, Feenix....glad you're enjoying the project....nearly there now! Haven't done much today, have just soldered the rack tail into it's final position. I took the seat board out of the case to clean out God knows how many years of accumulated dust and grime, and when clean and repaired (pics to follow tomorrow), the movement can be reinstated. I may set the seat board and movement up in the workshop to test the various operations before finally installing them in the case...that way if anything needs adjusting I can get all round the movement easily. All there is left to do now is to wind the new lines on the barrels and oil everything, when my new oiler arrives. Have just ordered one, along with some new tapered pins for fixing the plate pillars and dial, and a new pair of hands to replace the bodged set that the clock currently has. That lot should be here on Wednesday, and by the end of the week I hope to have this project wrapped up! :thumbsup:


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## Roger the Dodger

Took the seat board to the workshop today to try and improve its appearance. It's covered in a thick layer of dust and old, black oil.



















Now although I wanted to clean it up a bit, I didn't want to destroy the overall patina, and I wanted to leave all the original old cut clasp nails in situ. Basically all I have done is brush the dust off with an old paintbrush, and then gently scraped the old layer of oil off with a cabinet scraper, and finally a rub with a pad of wire wool. The board was given a blast from an air line to get rid of all bits of wire wool, dirt and dust. Although much cleaner, the wood still has an old look about it.










Next on the list was to replace the lines. This was 1.4mm gut coloured monofilament (like very thick fishing line)










This was threaded through the hole in the barrel and a figure of eight knot tied to secure the end. The knot was pulled up tight with pliers and a drop of superglue added.


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## Roger the Dodger

Next, the line was wound onto the barrel, following the grooves.










I had a bit of a problem here. When I got to the end of the barrel, the line was so springy that it immediately jumped out of the grooves and got in a tangle. To prevent this happening again, I re wound the line and then trapped a narrow piece of cling film under the last turn and wound the barrel one more turn to trap the line tightly in the grooves. I left about 14 inches of line free to thread the weight pulley on and knot through the seat board.

Clingfilmed barrel.










Tomorrow I shall set the movement up in the workshop on the seat board to test every thing works.


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## a6cjn

Looking good Rodger and I like the idea of the sympathetic restoration of the original timber. I usually make up me own wax polish but this stuff is good and would be just the job on the timber bits

Chris


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## Roger the Dodger

Thanks for that link, Chris ...they look like excellent products. When I used to have a woodturning lathe my local, and very old fashioned ironmongers, Isaac Lord in High Wycombe used to supply Rustins products which I found to be very effective...especially 'Rustins Plastic Coating'...a fabulous two part product for putting an incredible shine on things like turned fruit. The seat board is, however, so impregnated with oil that I don't think it will ever require any finishing product ever again! I originally thought it was oak like the rest of the case, but it turned out to be a piece of pine...it could well be a replacement because all the side supports and slide pieces are oak.


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## mel

Roger - this *IS* going to work - I feel it in my bones! I love the "after" picture that includes your replacement for the safety pin :lol: All your "new" old parts are sympathetic to the original makers work - I reckon he's looking over your shoulder and nodding his head in approval at the work you're doing, and the way you've got the mechanicals sorted out - it's just the "black art" bit now from the Horological Fairy and some fsiry dust when it all goes back together!  :angel:


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## Roger the Dodger

Cheers, Mel...hopefully it'll be up and running by the weekend.







Thanks to you and all the guys for your continued support! :thumbsup:


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## Roger the Dodger

Today I set the movement up on the seat board on a couple of trestles to test it out.



















The strike train worked perfectly, but there was a problem with the going train...It went for about half a revolution of the escape wheel, then jammed. On closer inspection, I found that there was excessive downwards wear in the pallet arbour holes...if I put my finger under the arbour, it worked perfectly. Probably, when I pegged the holes to clean them, it removed enough dirt to alter the position slightly. I have no option now but to bush the front and rear pallet arbour holes. This won't take long and I still hope to have the clock up and running during the weekend. Good job I set it up to test it!!! :wink:


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## lev

hi

having restored a lot of longcase clocks over the years i would like to congratulate you on what you have done with your first clock and without a lot of what some would deem to be nessesary equipment i have seen some absolute disasters by so called clock restorers who have an abudance of lathes drills etc

i dont want to start any argumets here but i did like the way you have clened the clock WITHOUT polishing all the parts on motorised polising spindles which i know a lot do which i always claim makes the clock look like it had just been purchased from ARGOS (no disrespect intended )

to finish the pallet faces properly if you are not gong to reface them i would treat them with autosol the polish you can obtain is excellent

i wouldnt bother marking how the wheels are as you dont now if they were actually right in the first place and seeing your standard of work i think it would not take you very long with the help of a library book to understand how and why they are set up as they should be

well done

regards lev

i can remember attending a course with broomwade when they first bought out there first screw compresser


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## louiswu

fantastic thread this. thanks so much for sharing the process.

I have zero talent for such feats of engineering myself, so it's always fascinating to see the fruits of someone elses labour.

have fun finishing the job. can't wait to see more


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## sparrow

:notworthy: still reading and enjoying the progress you're making with the clock - looking forward to seeing it all back together again too


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## Roger the Dodger

Good news and bad news today...the good news is that I re-bushed the pallet arbour pivot holes, oiled every thing that should be oiled, and the clock now runs beautifully....had it on the test rig and it ran for two hours until it was time to pack up and go home.

Here's a better pic of a bush half way in the new hole ready to be punched flush with the inside of the plate. (The first pic a couple of pages back was out of focus)










The bad news...on the way home in the back of the van somehow the pendulum rod broke off the flat where it screws in. :taz:










I'll have to extract the broken stub of rod from the pendulum flat, re tap the end of the rod and re-assemble...luckily there's enough adjustment left on the rating thread at the end of the flat to do this...I need approx 31.94" total length to get a 1 second beat.

Hopefully still on schedule to finish this weekend, assuming no more mishaps!

A quick word of thanks for the kind comments and tips from Lev...had already used Solvol Autosol on the pallets, as I didn't have any of the 1200 wet'n'dry that Steve (Clockworks) recommended. Polished them up a treat! Also thanks to everyone still following the project...only a couple more days to go!


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## Roger the Dodger

Good news! I managed to get the broken end of the pendulum rod out of the flat with a screw extactor and re-threaded the end of the rod.










So now the pendulum is back together, I'm going to fit everything back in the case and hopefully bring this thread to a close. Off to the pub for a well deserved pint I think...so no more posts tonight. See you tomorrow for the gripping conclusion! :thumbsup:


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## tock tick

I've been watching this saga unfold and its utterly BRILLIANT.

Its great to see there are still back yard engineers with great skills :notworthy:

Really enjoying the photo instructions too, Roger, you are the main man :smartass:

Looking forward to the conclusion now.....it WILL all work :sweatdrop:

Thanks for persisting with this post.....it'll be well worthwhile

Stu


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## Russ

I've been lurking on this from day one. :yes: One of the best threads ever, huge respect for you to have a go at this and so entertaining. Thankyou for taking the trouble to post up your work in such detail. Good luck for the run in!


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## Roger the Dodger

So...today's the day! Very apprehensive :sweatdrop: ... not only for the clock, but I don't want to let you guys down who have been following this topic from the start.

For those who may have just come straight to the last page, here's the movement at the start, with a lot of bodged DIY repairs.










...and now all the cleaning and repairs have been finished.










Ready? Here we go! The empty seat board awaiting the movement.










The movement, finally back where it belongs, firmly bolted into position.










The lines are threaded through the weight pulleys and knotted through the seat board. The weights are added and the cling film removed from the barrels.


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## Roger the Dodger

The pendulum is added and seems to swing OK. So far so good!










The dial is attached.










The new hands are added.










The hood is replaced.










And, finally....she's back together!










The clock is running beautifully though I'm sure I will have to make some adjustments over the next few days. The striking is spot on...the new rack tail is working well. If there's one thing I'm not happy with, it's the new hands...they seem a little 'heavy' compared to the old ones....a future project may well be to restore the original finer and thinner hands.

So there it is....all that remains for me to say is I've thoroughly enjoyed doing this project and sharing it with you all. I hope you've enjoyed it too! My thanks go to everyone who's looked, given tips and advice and posted positive and encouraging replies and especially to Steve (Clockworks) who's knowledge and advice have been invaluable. Thanks, Mate.

Bye for now! Rog. :thumbsup:


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## clockworks

Excellent work, Roger. Five weeks from your original post to completion - that's quicker than most shops! Out of interest, how many hours do you reckon you spent on this project? Actually in the workshop, not research/thinking/parts ordering time?

Are those hands from M&P? Good value, but, as you say, not the same as a pair of hand-made hands. There used to be a chap who went to all the clock fairs. He had a huge pattern book, and could make just about any type of hand to order, at very reasonable prices. Sadly, he passed away a few years ago.

What was the problem with the originals? I can see what looks like a break on the minute hand. They should be repairable with a bit of silver soldering.


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## Roger the Dodger

The hands were from Cousins and I just thought a new pair might finish the clock nicely, but I don't really like them. There wasn't anything really wrong with the old ones, in fact nothing with the hour hand, but half the minute hand had been broken off at some point and a straight piece of steel badly soldered on in its place with no attempt at re creating the curves and points of the original. I think I will definately repair the old minute hand.

In all, I suppose I spent an hour a day in the workshop on average, and the total outlay for parts was just under Â£100.

Here're a couple of pics of the minute hand, back and front...as you can see it shouldn't be too hard to fix.


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## a6cjn

Very well done Roger :thumbup:

I am really pleased for you and enjoyed the WIP (Work In Progress) thread which, on the one hand takes a lot of extra time and effort - arranging the set up for the pics etc.., but it can help you think a little more about what and how you are going to do it 

As well as saving several hundreds of pounds, I'm sure you will feel a tremendous sense of acievement every time you hear it chime.

A most enjoyable and informative thread, thank you.

Just a thought about the hands, have a google about photo etch resist etching, used in PCB making but also used a lot in model engineering. You could make your own hands by photocopying your chosen design from a catalogue and then etching them in some thin brass

Chris


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## clockworks

a6cjn said:


> Just a thought about the hands, have a google about photo etch resist etching, used in PCB making but also used a lot in model engineering. You could make your own hands by photocopying your chosen design from a catalogue and then etching them in some thin brass
> 
> Chris


The hands on these single sheet brass dial clocks are steel, and quite heavy gauge.


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## mel

:notworthy:














:clapping: :man_in_love: :band:

Fabulous job Roger! just sublime! I suggest your work is of sufficiently high a standard to warrant a "Re-furbished by Rodge Dodge in 2010" inscribed Brass plate - and a copy of the photos and etc., to go with that attached to the long case somewhere's for future generations - for it *will* last now for future generations :yes:


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## Roger the Dodger

Funny you should say that, Mel.....I am just in the process of printing out and laminating a summary of what has just been done along with the date to put inside the case for when the next person has to do some work on it. I think that's a better idea than scratching dates on the back of the dial. Thanks for the compliment BTW. :thumbsup:


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## feenix

Excellent work Roger. Its great to see it back in its full dress again. Thanks again for taking the time to catalogue everything thats gone into this repair/restoration.


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## Roger the Dodger

Roger the Dodger said:


> The clock is running beautifully though I'm sure I will have to make some adjustments over the next few days.


 As an addendum...the clock did stop a couple of times during yesterday. Refering to my library book Finding and Restoring Longcase clocks by Antony Ells, there is a section on getting the beat right. Listening to the ticking, I could hear that the beat was slightly 'lopsided'...a lighter tick and a heavier tock. To correct this I followed the instructions and made a 'beat plaque'...basically a line with the centre marked and some small divisions (1/8") either side. This is taped to the back of the case behind the pendulum at rest with the end of the rating screw on the centre mark.










The pendulum is moved by hand to one side until the tick of the escape is heard, and the position of the screw marked. Then it is moved to the other side until the tock is heard and that position noted. You will see from the next pic that the beat (the distance between the marks) is way off centre.










To rectify this, a slight bend is put in the crutch rod at the back of the movement, in the direction of the larger beat, a little at a time until the beat is centered. It took two attempts to do this.



















Now the clock is ticking evenly and hasn't stopped since the adjustments. :thumbsup:


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## clockworks

An easy way to set the beat on a pendulum clock:

Listen to the tick tock

Lift one side of the clock slightly - does the beat get more even or less even?

If it gets more even, adjust the crutch towards the side that you lifted.

If it gets more uneven, adjust the crutch towards the side that you didn't lift.

Repeat until the tick tock is is nice and even.

Most English and German clocks made since WW1 have a friction-fitted crutch, which can slip on the arbor, rather than having to bend it.

French "drum" clocks are adjusted by rotating the movement in the case - slacken the 2 screws behind the rear door.

Some German "longcase" and wall clocks have a beat adjuster (eccentric cam) built into the crutch.


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## dobra

Congratulations Roger on a first class restoration process. Bravery, and your ability to work through the problems was ace. The expert help along the way made the whole thing a great learning process for me, and the sight of the finished job capped it. Well done.

Mike

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## Sparky

Only just seen this and read the whole thing from start to finish. Fascinating stuff, thanks for posting

I found it most enjoyable :yes:

Mark


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## feenix

Sparky said:


> Only just seen this and read the whole thing from start to finish. Fascinating stuff, thanks for posting
> 
> I found it most enjoyable :yes:
> 
> Mark


Reminds me a little of the Omega thread from a year or so back where a member took the time and effort to have it fully restored (sorry can't remember the OP).

Perhaps we should have an area of the board for 'Epic Threads', where these true classic threads could be kept so that they don't fall down the board? I'd nominate this thread and the Omega Restoration thread, along with a number of the threads in the electrical section.


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## mel

Roger, I've asked the mods to look at pinning this thread in some way, even suggesting editing out all my drivel, I feel it should be preserved for future reference. :notworthy:

And you all know how much notice the mods take of me :rofl2:


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## dobra

Agreed 110% Mel, and could be put into PDF format. On a Creative Writing forum I belong to, all our pieces have been collated, without comments, and downloaded to those interested.

Mike


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## Roger the Dodger

Mel, Feenix and Dobra.....thanks for the vote of confidence guys! :thumbsup:


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## Roger the Dodger

Started making a new minute hand today, that will be much finer and more like the original.

Sourced a suitable piece of steel from a joist support, ground the galvanised finish off on a linisher, traced the outline and started filing. When it's finished, I'm going to heat treat it to blue it..(along with the original hour hand). I forgot to take the camera to work today, so will post some pics tomorrow. :thumbsup:


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## JonW

Very impressive work and a really enjoyable thread Roger, thanks for sharing


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## clockworks

Making a new minute hand is, to me, the most difficult thing you've tried so far. Have you tested a piece of the steel to make sure that it'll blue the same as the original hour hand?


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## JWL940

Roger

Google 'shotgun bluing'. I did a shotgun barrel years ago chemically and it seems you can still get the chemicals from your local High Street gunsmith. This method might be easier and more repeatable than heating the hands.

Just an option.

John


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## Roger the Dodger

Thanks for all your hints and tips re blueing the hands, guys. Steve, I have tried the new piece of steel for colour and it seems to work well...bear in mind that I've got to get rid of the black paint that someone's put on the hour hand, so that will be wet 'n' dried back to bare metal before re bluing with the new one. If they come out different colours, I can always fall back on painting them black.

Here's the new minute hand with the outside edges roughed out, before drilling and filing the piercings. (I'm too tight to go and buy a piercing saw for a one off!)










And here it is with the internal piercings roughed out.










There is still some finishing filing to be done to make it as delicate as the hour hand , but you can see the shape starting to emerge.

Here's the hour hand, the new hand and the bodged hand together.










In this pic you can see the stamped out 'bought' hand from Cousins on the left. The new hand already looks more delicate, and it's not been refined yet!










The new hand on top of the bought hand....much better already!










Will continue with the filing process tomorrow, before deburring and polishing ready for blueing.


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## Roger the Dodger

Of course, there's always the other option.....just quickly knock up an hour hand out of the same steel and then they'll come out the same colour!!! :clap:


----------



## clockworks

WOW - excellent work there, Roger. I've never had the patience to try making hands. Can't see my customers being willing to cover the labour costs, either!

How long do you reckon it'll take you to make a pair? I'm sure that there's a market for hand-cut hands at around Â£50 a pair.

I've never had much luck with bluing - getting a consistent colour along the whole length of both hands is tricky. I normally resort to oil blacking. To me, it looks better on a longcase anyway.


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## Roger the Dodger

It's taken an hour a day for four days to source the metal, trace, rough cut and file. I've taken my time because it's really a labour of love....the bought hands just don't have the same finesse as the originals. If I was to go into production (which I'm not!) I think a piercing saw would make things a lot easier, though I believe I'd still have to finish by hand with needle files. I did try a sanding drum on my Dremel, but it wore the grit off the drum in about 30 seconds flat! I saw piercing saws for sale in our local branch of Hobbycraft...about a tenner IIRC.

Anyway......todays achievements. I finished refining the hand and polished it ready for blueing. (That's a shadow halfway down the pic, not part of the heating process)










The traditional way to blue was to lay the hand on a bed of brass filings on a tray and heat until the desired colour was reached, then quench in oil to halt the process. I presume the filings were to conduct the heat evenly to the hand. In the absence of all of the above,  I found an old omelette pan and used some fine kiln dried sand (the type for filling in block paving that I had left over from another job) to act as a heat transfer agent. At the first attempt, the tip and base coloured first, but the middle section took far longer, by which time the two ends had gone white. I also stank the kitchen out to the consternation of 'Er indoors! For the second go (after wet 'n' dry and polishing again), I reduced the amount of sand to a very thin layer and kept the pan moving over the gas. Eventually the hand turned a beautiful kingfisher blue and I tipped it into a bowl of olive oil to halt the blueing (I didn't have any normal oil available....kiln dried sand yes, oil...no!)

Here's the blued hand, and that's not rust or discolouration...for some reason, the camera wouldn't pick up the colour properly, probably because I haven't set up my light box, but it really is a gorgeous, uniform shade of blue all over, Oh...and the hour hand came out fine too!










And finally, on the clock.










Hope you like the finished effect (again, the camera hasn't picked up the true colour due to insufficient light)....I think it's much more desirable than the pre fab hands. :clap:


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## clockworks

Those hands turned out really nice - are you finished with it now, Roger, or does the dial need re-silvering (I can't remember what the finish was like)?

What's your next project going to be?


----------



## Roger the Dodger

I think that's it for the clock......Weelll maybe not. Although I'm perfectly happy with the way the hands turned out, I'd like to try another method of bluing..ie. bluing salts..and to that end I've ordered some from Meadows & Passmore.('cos you don't know till you've tried it!)With this method, you heat the salts 'til they're molten (about 300 degrees) which is the same temp at which steel blues. The item is emersed in the molten salts where it heats up evenly, and because it is emersed, no colour change takes place until it is removed and exposed to the air whereupon it oxidizes to blue evenly. I will try this with the clock hands because they are easily removed and prepared for bluing. My real reason for trying this method is that I have a rare and beautiful 1923 Masonic Elgin pocket watch with gorgeous blued hands that have a little rust on them. My next project would be to remove them, clean the rust off, re-polish and re-blue.

BTW, the clock dial is polished brass and I'm going to keep it that way.

Possible next project...re-blue hands on 1923 Masonic Elgin pocket watch.










See you soon guys! :thumbsup:


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## feenix

Good to see the last stage Roger. You've done a stunning job with that hand, and imho you were right to do it. It now looks far, far better than the bought, stamped model you'd picked up.


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## Roger the Dodger

Thanks, Feenix...glad you like it...and thanks for sticking to the end (the second end!) of the project! :thumbsup:


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## a6cjn

The hands turned out very well indeed Roger

I've blued steel by wrapping it in foil and putting in a domestic oven at 180, time depends on the metal thickness. It will be interesting to see how the salts work out.

That masonic pocket watch is a real beaut

Chris


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## clockworks

If you're happy with the dial being polished brass, that's fine. Not sure if you know, but these single-sheet dials were originally silvered. It was an attempt to copy the latest craze at the time - white enamel dials (painted). The earlier multi-piece dials (applied chapter ring and spandrels) were usually polished/matted brass, with a silvered chapter ring and gilt spandrels.

Silvering is a DIY chemical process (M&P sell the kits, IIRC) and transforms the clock. Several customers have been very sceptical, but were pleased with the end results.

Your choice, but worth further investigation.


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## Roger the Dodger

I'll look into it, Steve. :thumbsup:


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## feenix

And so the saga continues. :jawdrop:


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## dobra

A big round of applause for Roger - a project well done !!!

mike


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## JonW

Love that blueing! Well done Roger.


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## Roger the Dodger

Thanks Jon...nice to know that someone's watching from 'down under'! Well, the bluing salts have arrived and I'm going to have a go this weekend. I'll take the hands off the clock, rub them down with 1200 wet'n'dry, polish, and re blue in the salts. If all goes well, then I'll try the hands on the masonic pocket watch. Expect some pics and decription soon.....


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## Roger the Dodger

Had an absolutely disasterous day! The bluing salts would not melt properly over a domestic gas ring...a crust kept forming in the middle of the pan and the colour was so brown, I couldn't see any colour change occuring on the steel without keep lifting the hands out of the salts. You must have to use a blowlamp or very intense heat under the pan in order to melt the crystals uniformly. Had to resort to the dry heat method in order to re-blue the clock hands.

Even worse, when I was polishing the minute hand of my masonic pocket watch, ready to blue, I caught the tip of the hand in the cloth, and broke it off, thus ruining an 86 year old watch. I shall have to see if I can get some replacement hands off the Bay....there seem to be plenty available, although they may not be quite the same pattern.

It said on the tub of bluing salts that they were re-usable after cooling down, but mine have welded themselves to the surface of the pan in a solid and unsavagable mess resulting in a lot of very bad language,  the pan and the remainder of the unused salts being thrown as far as I can see them! (in the bin) :taz:

I think I'm going to give all this up and find an easier hobby :aggressive:

Edit...Oh...and there are no pics unless you want to see an omelette pan with a rather fetching new interior surface.....


----------



## Roger the Dodger

I did manage to get a brand new set (NOS) of hands for the Elgin from the States for less than a fiver! Wish I'd looked there first instead of going through all that palaver trying to clean and re-blue the old ones...

And just in case you're interested in how the Elgin looks now with its NOS hands...










How lucky was I?................... 

Thanks for looking...and if this post helps anyone else.....I'm happy! :yes:


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## feenix

Don't worry about a single post being a 'bit of a downer' Rodger, the standard you've set in posting is difficult for the rest of us to keep up with.

Well done on getting the hands for Elgin, time well spent imho.


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## Roger the Dodger

feenix said:


> Don't worry about a single post being a 'bit of a downer' Rodger, the standard you've set in posting is difficult for the rest of us to keep up with.
> 
> Well done on getting the hands for Elgin, time well spent imho.


 Thanks, mate! :thumbsup:


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## ian1

It's a lovely looking watch, I like the skull on the face!!


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## Roger the Dodger

Well it's been a long time since I revisited this thread and I've got over the angst I had regarding the Elgin, so I'll re-post a pic of it with its new hands for any recent viewers who have seen the deleted pics above.


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## davycrocket

Hi Rog

Just noticed on saving what I had just written that i had written only seeing page 1 !!

Didn't notice another 7 pages suggesting repairs that I was advising .

And later seeing what I good job you had done .

So deleted what I had written and wrote this instead .

Rgds

Davycrocket .


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## Roger the Dodger

Cheers, Davy, thanks for the kind words.


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## trackrat

What a fascinating read, I wish I had your skill and patience.


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