# Should Fake Watches Be Considered?



## FPN Arthur (Oct 25, 2008)

As a newbie I would be interested in Forum members opinions on well made and accurate but fake watches.

I have been offered a new watch for Â£60, sold knowingly as a copy of a Â£12,000 watch. I am not interested other than how can a Chinese factory produce work of this quality at this price.

For many people the idea of spending Â£12000 on a watch is simply unacceptable - should they be denied excellent design and apparantly very good workmanship from a Chinese copy?

I am involved in Design as part of my work, given the choice I would be saying to the Chinese companies - create your own brand and style and values - the fact remains that copyright concepts and law do not exist in China and there will always be people *in the West *such as LINK REMOVED who will take advantage.

Whats the view of the Forum and its membership, should high quality design be available even to those who cannot pay the big ticket prices of major western brands?

Or should copyright laws be enforced and the purchase of such watches be limited to the wealthy?


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2008)

Oh no, not the fake thread again :cry2:

I can't speak for the forum, but having viewed and participated in many similar threads the consensus of opinion appears to be that fakes are wrong, end of story. If it says XXXXX on the dial, then it should have been made by XXXXX.

Hommages are a different matter. If they make a very similar looking watch to XXXXX, but put their own name on it, then this appears to be acceptable (not to all though !). A prime example of a hommage would be Alpha watches.

Stand by for many differing opinions.


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

catflem said:


> Oh no, not the fake thread again :cry2:


Yep...feels like every Monday morning :yawn:


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

catflem said:


> Oh no, not the fake thread again :cry2:
> 
> I can't speak for the forum, but having viewed and participated in many similar threads the consensus of opinion appears to be that fakes are wrong, end of story. If it says XXXXX on the dial, then it should have been made by XXXXX.
> 
> ...


Well for me you have put it in a nutshell there. Everyone should read what you have said then shut up. :lol:


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## FPN Arthur (Oct 25, 2008)

Russ said:


> catflem said:
> 
> 
> > Oh no, not the fake thread again :cry2:
> ...


I am sorry that this question has caused this reaction. I have asked that it is removed.


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

FPN Arthur said:


> Russ said:
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> 
> > catflem said:
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No need mate, this old wound gets opened regularly. It isn't your fault and it's a good question to ask. Stick around and you will get a feel for what people think on the matter.


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

Russ said:


> catflem said:
> 
> 
> > Oh no, not the fake thread again :cry2:
> ...


But there is ambiguity, highlighted, it therefore needs discussion. :lol:


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## Toshi (Aug 31, 2007)

MarkF said:


> Russ said:
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> > catflem said:
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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

if you want to wear them do it ,i just bought 2 on holidays as pressies and i have to say they are excellent quality and spot on to the originals ,im quite sad to be giving them away really.

jason.


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## mart broad (May 24, 2005)

Nobody's having a pop at you but this is an old chestnut,well documented and easily found using the search button.My view leaving out the morality of the fake market and the abuse of intellectual copyright is simply this,

Everytime i looked at the watch i would know its not genuine and that would pee me off big time,feel the same about "homages" BTW.

Martin


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## PhilM (Nov 5, 2004)

Mmm interesting thread for a Monday h34r:

Trying to look at it from a different industry, what would happen if a a new car company decided to start manufacturing cars, and instead of designing their own they just started to copy the likes of Porsche and Ferrari, would these be classed as homage's :blink:


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## irkibby (Oct 20, 2008)

Theres also a small issue of whether someone knows a watch is fake.... a watch being sold for Â£50 when everyone knows a real one costs thousands rules out it being original. But on Saturday I saw a Tissot Seastar automatic on a leather strap, which on closer inspection turned out to be fake.

Someone would have paid Â£75 for this, not knowing or really realising it was fake, because the shop sold secondhand watches and shop display models, so they could have presumed it was a shop second at a good price. I gave them the watch back, having spotted the joins between the letters on the TISSOT logo.

To me a fake never will be any good. It's only because people buy them that they get made, devaluing the designs they copy.


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

PhilM said:


> Mmm interesting thread for a Monday h34r:
> 
> Trying to look at it from a different industry, what would happen if a a new car company decided to start manufacturing cars, and instead of designing their own they just started to copy the likes of Porsche and Ferrari, would these be classed as homage's :blink:


 :lol:


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## break-3 (Oct 2, 2008)

PhilM said:


> Mmm interesting thread for a Monday h34r:
> 
> Trying to look at it from a different industry, what would happen if a a new car company decided to start manufacturing cars, and instead of designing their own they just started to copy the likes of Porsche and Ferrari, would these be classed as homage's :blink:


Heard of kit cars?  There are more Cobra and GT40 copies around than real ones, that's for sure. Of course, they're copies of vintage classics, so homages of classic watches are also okay, right? Or maybe only if they're built out of old Ford Escorts? I'm confused... :blink:


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

i do agree that if you are selling fakes as real watches or trying to pass them off as real then that is a real sad thing to do .but i bought a panerai off a huge black gent from sennegal there was no doubt what i was buying .

why would anyone want to fake a tissot ?

the thing that gets me though is the pannie i bought says marina millitaire on it if thats all it said on the dial it would be ok to post a picture on here but because it says panerai on the bottom i cant .its avery fine line we are treading here isnt it.

jason.


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## PhilM (Nov 5, 2004)

break-3 said:


> PhilM said:
> 
> 
> > Mmm interesting thread for a Monday h34r:
> ...


No exactly there copies


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

I'm the doyen (look it up! :lol of the "If you like it wear it" brigade! I don't have a problem with wearing the Hong Kong Rolly, only one person has ever asked me if it's real, and I said "What, at Â£12.00??"

TBH I get more comments about the Coss Orangey Sub than about any of the fakes/homages/copies I have. It catches the eye, and most folks like the idea of a plastic watch (thankyou Mr Swatch)! :yes: Interestingly, I came thru security (both ways, UK to Spain, Spain to UK) and it didn't trigger the security gate whilst others were having to take of SS "Chunkies" h34r:










But then it came shipped from China at Â£5.00 all inclusive - so it's a homage!


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## PhilM (Nov 5, 2004)

mel said:


> I'm the doyen


You most certainly are Mel :notworthy:

Edit: Also get the same mail out


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

> the thing that gets me though is the pannie i bought says marina millitaire on it if thats all it said on the dial it would be ok to post a picture on here but because it says panerai on the bottom i cant .its avery fine line we are treading here isnt it.


Yep...


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2008)

MarkF said:


> Russ said:
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> > catflem said:
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Ambiguity, you may have a valid point there, but on the other hand ...................... :lol:


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## biggles (Aug 6, 2008)

PhilM said:


> Mmm interesting thread for a Monday h34r:
> 
> Trying to look at it from a different industry, what would happen if a a new car company decided to start manufacturing cars, and instead of designing their own they just started to copy the likes of Porsche and Ferrari, would these be classed as homage's :blink:


The chinese have been doing it for about 5 years now with motorbikes(straight rip offs of leading Jap models).

They look very similiar to the Jap bike but the qulaity just aint there(e.g Suzuki SV650 compared to Hyosung Comet).

Sames gonna be true of the watches.


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## FPN Arthur (Oct 25, 2008)

biggles said:


> PhilM said:
> 
> 
> > Mmm interesting thread for a Monday h34r:
> ...


I am not a car expert but isnt there a car company in Dorset that is making replicars of the Porsche 356 that is - perhaps- more desirable because it is much less expensive and is more useable on a day to day basisthan the very expensive and delicate original.

My other passion is fountain pens. The Chinese copy most of the premium western brands, especially Montblanc, sell them very cheaply, around 2% of the MB price and do a reasonable job.

When they make to their own design they are almost as good as the best the west can make, but you pay Â£5 instead of Â£250.


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

this has been covered so many times read up on any thread about alphas etc .if you want to spend all that money on a watch then buy it ,id love to be able to go out and spend a few grand on some quality pieces but for a while i cant see it hapening .

so if you want a fake and youre not going to sell it on to some unsuspecting dude on the bay and you can live with youreself buy one .

if not buy an alpha or an mm at least youll be able to show it on here.

ive had a montblanc fake now for about 4 years and its as reliable as any other watch i have ,sadly i dont know how much it cost but i bet it was cheap.

jason.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Jase, you can show a fake here as much as you like, theres norule about that, you will just have to put up with the negative comments and you just cant sell one on the sales forum.....


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

jase ive had a couple of fakes since i joined here most of which ive got rid of ,the mb ive kept hardly wear it though.

as for negativity on here most of the folk on here i dont know and vice versa so negativity doesnt bother me really i wont post pictures or talk about them really ,just ive always thought theres a very funny attitude towards them on here thats all .

jason.


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## bea13abc (Sep 1, 2008)

As I sit here in my university library I look at a fat man trying to rest his text book on his stomach. I see young chaps glued to their books and girls making love to their laptops. I hear rain drops outside with pink ladybirds running about to the sound of "BOOM BOOM SHAKE THE ROOM".

I wonder to myself, why my life has come to this fateful end. I was once a young thin lad with a talent of carving robots out of spinach.

Sounds stupid don't it. Now relate this stupidness to buying a fake watch. Donâ€™t do it.

:cry2: :cry2: :cry2:


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## FPN Arthur (Oct 25, 2008)

Could we have more deatils on the "making love to the lap tops" please.

Making love to a PDA or a mobile, well maybe, lap tops sounds scarey to me, like waving a Woodbine in the Albert Hall.


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

FPN Arthur said:


> like waving a Woodbine in the Albert Hall.


Whoops, there's another thread we've done before, Running Man has the all time cracker IMO. :lol:


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## Griff (Feb 23, 2003)




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## Robert (Jul 26, 2006)

Griff said:


>


My thoughts exactly


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## VinceR (Oct 21, 2005)

FPN Arthur said:


> Or should copyright laws be enforced and the purchase of such watches be limited to the wealthy?


Yes, although 'wealthy' is a very subjective term!



catflem said:


> A prime example of a hommage would be Alpha watches.


Nope, they are prime examples of fakes! They use someone else R&D, marketing, design to trade from .. just because they don't have what they pretend to be written on the dial, everyone knows what they look like & that is why they are bought. I just wish this company (and others) would put their efforts into creating an unique watch of their own design.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2008)

VinceR said:


> FPN Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > Or should copyright laws be enforced and the purchase of such watches be limited to the wealthy?
> ...


A unique watch of their own design - therefore no detail similar to any other watch that has ever been manufactured............... that's going to narrow the field somewhat.

Using the above criteria, I would hazard a guestimate that 99% of all watches are therefore fakes or at the very least hommages. There are very few unique watches, they all take design Q's from other manufacturers.


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

catflem said:


> VinceR said:
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> > FPN Arthur said:
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As do other industries. In 1976 Ford and Fiat were rivals in the small car market. Working locked away in there own secret design locations, one came up with the Fiesta, the other with the 127. Spooky eh?


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## Toshi (Aug 31, 2007)




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## thunderbolt (May 19, 2007)

:lol:


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## spankone (Sep 17, 2008)

should a thread like this be stickied to the top of the forum. wouldn't that stop the weekly questions?

imo I'lld rather save up a feel like I've earned it. on the other had I'll never afford to spend 12k on a watch so why bother looking.

Far more satisfying to bye cheaper more interesting watches.


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

:russian_roulette:


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

spankone said:


> should a thread like this be stickied to the top of the forum. wouldn't that stop the weekly questions?


I have wondered this myself :wink2:


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## break-3 (Oct 2, 2008)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> spankone said:
> 
> 
> > should a thread like this be stickied to the top of the forum. wouldn't that stop the weekly questions?
> ...


I'm with you on that.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2008)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> spankone said:
> 
> 
> > should a thread like this be stickied to the top of the forum. wouldn't that stop the weekly questions?
> ...


It's a bit like picking a scab, you know it's going to hurt and make you bleed, but you still do it


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

I`ve only this to say on the views of some members regarding the subject of homages v fakes which is that....

`They` are wrong!!









& `I` am right_* :thumbup: *_

S_*o there!!*_ :tease:

:lol:


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

The Fiat 127 came about long before the Fiesta. Five years earlier in fact.

Fakes wear fakes.


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

tomshep said:


> The Fiat 127 came about long before the Fiesta. Five years earlier in fact.
> 
> Fakes wear fakes.


That's my point,  I don't remember people pointing at the Ford saying "Look, it's a fake Fiat". It had a Ford badge on the front, like Grovana watches have Grovana on them, looks familiar though!


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

Where's that spanner - I'll just toss it into the works [cue maniacal laughter] :yes:

So does that mean the original SEAT cars (made from Fiat tooling sent off to sunny Spain) and the FSO (made from Fiat tooling sent off to various Eastern European countries) and the Polski-Fiat, and the original Lada, and the Dacia (From Renault tooling sent off to behind the eastern bloc "wall" at the time) are they copies, homages or fakes. :huh:

And what about the jolly old Standard Ten made and sold in India for many years? :rofl: (It was crap when it was the Standard Ten, even crappier when the Indians made it!)

'tis all a very grey area indeed. There's no answer, if you're ok with it wear a homage/fake or copy, if you're not ok with it, then you just have to save up for a real one h34r:


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## Robert (Jul 26, 2006)

mel said:


> Where's that spanner - I'll just toss it into the works [cue maniacal laughter] :yes:
> 
> So does that mean the original SEAT cars (made from Fiat tooling sent off to sunny Spain) and the FSO (made from Fiat tooling sent off to various Eastern European countries) and the Polski-Fiat, and the original Lada, and the Dacia (From Renault tooling sent off to behind the eastern bloc "wall" at the time) are they copies, homages or fakes. :huh:
> 
> ...


Different issue - they were obselete tooling - like Daewoo making the old Astra.

If Rolex stopped making the Sub and sold the designs to Alpha, then Alpha would be quite entitled to make an Alpha Sub.


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## bunchie32 (Jun 27, 2008)

please make it stop......


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

Robert said:


> mel said:
> 
> 
> > Where's that spanner - I'll just toss it into the works [cue maniacal laughter] :yes:
> ...


but what is the difference between alpha and grovanna then both subs both look like rolex but because grovanna are a bit more expensive they are regarded as better? ok the quality might be better but looks wise ,nearly every make out there makes an example of a sub .

and why does this topic always end up comparing it to cars , with 4 wheels in each corner and somewhere to sit for people some are going to come out similar sooner or later. same as watches there are only so many things you can do with them before you have to do youre interpretation on the classics im sure even roy has touched on someone elses design or will sooner or later.

jason.


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## Mutley (Apr 17, 2007)

:cry2: :cry2: :cry2:


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## AbingtonLad (Sep 8, 2008)

I've only been reading the boards for a few weeks, but even I know that many members will be pulling their hair out at yet another 'fake/copy/homage/rip-off' discussion. Still, that won't stop me sticking my two-penn'orth in!

Let me suggest a parallel from my own area of expertise - writing. It is often said that there are really only six different plots in existence and that all films, novels and other works of literature are simply variations or combinations of these six. Admittedly these categories are very broad (the typical 'things are good... things go bad... hero makes it good again' Hollywood plot is one example), but the principle is a good one.

Consequently, almost anything you read has been 'done before' in one form or another. J.K. Rowling may be (financially at least) the most successful female writer of all time, but her critics are quick to point out that many of her big ideas have been around for years - some have strong echoes in Tolkien, in particular. But Rowling cannot possibly write in a vacuum, devoid of all and any influence from what has gone before; so we are happy to accept that she has assimilated the work of her predecessors, before re-shaping it and making it her own. This is not plagiarism; it is the way 99.9% of new literature gets written.

Anyone setting out to design a watch is faced with the same problem. Most viable designs for case, strap, hands, crown and so on have all been done before, so how can any new watch be completely innovative and unique? Almost without exception, it cannot.

The key is reinterpreting and adding to what's gone before, NOT simply copying. Roy takes ideas, designs, materials prepared by others, adds his own expertise and the resulting watches are undoubtedly his own. They are valued as a result.

As I understand it (and I'm still a newbie!) you can post homages on the sales forum, but not copies. Go into Waterstones and you will find many books that pay homage to other works, without copying them. This, I would argue, is exactly the way it should be.

If you make 0.01p from sitting back, yawning and unashamedly stealing the work of another, surely that's 0.01p too much.









Kevin


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

That hurt my head. Only 9 posts too, can see problems with this lad


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

who really GAF? if you wanna wear a fake....fine.....if someone wants to come on here and say they wear a fake.....then fine  who are we to judge one way or another?


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## Stuart Davies (Jan 13, 2008)

VinceR said:


> catflem said:
> 
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> > A prime example of a hommage would be Alpha watches.
> ...


Not wishing to pick a fight here and I'm genuinely confused but where does the PRS50 fit in this then?


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## Fulminata (Feb 23, 2008)

bea13abc said:


> I was once a young thin lad with a talent of carving robots out of spinach.


You see, I was only scrolling through this thread to chuckle at the suicidal chimps and things, :lol: but this is one line I never expected to read on a watch forum.

Priceless. Long live :rltb:


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

Stuart Davies said:


> VinceR said:
> 
> 
> > catflem said:
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i dont care where it fits in its freeking gorgous and i wouldnt care if it was made from melted down blancpains by the sweatiest of sweat shops that is what small watchmakers should be making imo.

jason.


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## bea13abc (Sep 1, 2008)

Fulminata said:


> bea13abc said:
> 
> 
> > I was once a young thin lad with a talent of carving robots out of spinach.
> ...


On a serious note, someone please make a rule whereby anything fake should be banished from RLT!

Or I may just mumble crap on here for my entire life.

Raj


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## mach 0.0013137 (Jan 10, 2005)

Actually, I`m not certain that some forum members actually exist but are instead merely the products of a deranged imagination







 :lol:

Then again that could be me just getting flashbacks from the pounds, shillings & pence I took in the 70`s 










:rofl:


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## Chally2 (Jul 11, 2008)

We've seen threads of this nature posted so many times before but I canâ€™t recall the real question being asked, what drives people to want a fake watch in the first place?

I have a theory and Iâ€™d like to see other peopleâ€™s thoughts too. 

I suggest that people who buy fake watches are bending to peer pressure, they want to fit in with people they see as â€œbetterâ€ than themselves because those people wear a certain watch, clothes, drive a certain make of car, etc.

Do the people who buy fake watches actually like the designs being portrayed, I wonder? Or are they pandering to an â€œimageâ€ they think is expected of them?

Some may see these people as wannabees (I hate that term), some may see them as sheep.

Perhaps all this nonsense could be avoided by creating our own lifestyle instead of adheering to the norm?

At the moment I'm having trouble getting my tongue out of my cheek, and no, I don't need and assistance thanks lads.


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## James (Jul 17, 2006)

hmm 61 posts on fakes. Too many for me to read, or care


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## adrian (May 23, 2004)

Likewise.


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## Twincam (Mar 27, 2008)

Well i see it a few ways.

Some people like the design but can not afford the real thing. You could say in this case fake and homages are the same thing and it does not matter, its the design that counts.

Some people want to fit in or give off a certain image, these will buy only a proper branded fake and will lie about it being a fake. This is the real problem. But our world has created this monster of greed and fashion.

Some people will think its a bit of fun [like me]. As long as they are not trying to rip anyone off and saying its real thats ok.

Some people don't like the ilegal side of things. Which i agree with, but i also sometimes think bugger the big companys, if they did not overcharge ,which they all do in some degree then more people would buy the real thing.

All in all i think if you want to wear a fake then fine, as long as its not going to be sold as the real deal. In fact i like to see a good fake sometimes, it makes me smile at the fact a small workshop thats equipet with the worst tools and machines, and has many untrained people working there can produce somthing that looks like the real deal.

Also i don't know why people keep saying this thread is boring, and post something that contributes nothing, if you don't want to talk about it then don't look at the thread. New people come to watches and join forums all the time so it's going to be discussed alot more in the future.


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## adrian (May 23, 2004)

Twincam said:


> Well i see it a few ways.
> 
> Some people like the design but can not afford the real thing. You could say in this case fake and homages are the same thing and it does not matter, its the design that counts.
> 
> ...


I feel I'm a little in default here. 

-If you were to invent something in terms of design, mechanics or whatever would you treat lightly those who imitate to almost perfection what you discovered?

-I'm an art student and probably you can't afford a Picasso and sure as hell you can't afford a Van Gogh. Do you want one so good you can present to everyone you know that you posses an original?

Fakes=imitate, not innovate. No wonder most of them come from China. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Btw, did you got your H3 100% guaranteed natural egg omlet that incidentally has melamine content 60 times up the normal limits? No worry, seconday side-effects appear if you consume it regularly, I guess only Sundays and only Wednesdays are OK.


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## RoddyJB (May 11, 2008)

I think the companies that make the fakes, should just make their own watches, with there own names on them & if they look similar so be it? As long as they aren't pretending to be something they're not. I wear an old Helbros quartz dive watch for kicking around. I've had people think its a Rolex from a distance. So what?


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## Twincam (Mar 27, 2008)

Considering we are all consdering fake watches in the thread then yes fake watches should be considered.

But yeah consider them and wear them if you want.


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## Running_man (Dec 2, 2005)

In my experience, most people who own fake watches just want a cheap beater to tell the time with and if anything, don't really care about watches other than for this reason. Many probably wouldn't know the model or style name that their fake watch is trying to ape.

I've never met anybody with a fake watch who's tried to pass it off as genuine. If anything, they've always made a point of saying "See that? twelve quid from a Thailand market stall!" There's often a tone of pride in their statement, inferring that I'm the idiot for shelling out lots of money for the watches I wear.

So because of this, on a dedicated watch forum at least, I don't think fake watches should be considered. But I'd never look down on somebody if they chose to wear one.

A.


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## FPN Arthur (Oct 25, 2008)

Running_man said:


> In my experience, most people who own fake watches just want a cheap beater to tell the time with and if anything, don't really care about watches other than for this reason. Many probably wouldn't know the model or style name that their fake watch is trying to ape.
> 
> I've never met anybody with a fake watch who's tried to pass it off as genuine. If anything, they've always made a point of saying "See that? twelve quid from a Thailand market stall!" There's often a tone of pride in their statement, inferring that I'm the idiot for shelling out lots of money for the watches I wear.
> 
> ...


I think you are all up your own arses.


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

FPN Arthur said:


> Running_man said:
> 
> 
> > In my experience, most people who own fake watches just want a cheap beater to tell the time with and if anything, don't really care about watches other than for this reason. Many probably wouldn't know the model or style name that their fake watch is trying to ape.
> ...


Not nice.


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## jasonm (Nov 22, 2003)

Ahhhh Arthur....You were doing so well up to that point 

You asked for opinions and got them, just because you dont agree or have a differing one then you say something like that...

You could of debated your point of view but have taken the easy way out...

Shut the door behind you yeah?


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## Alas (Jun 18, 2006)

FPN Arthur said:


> I think you are all up your own arses.


Ah but is it our own arses or a cheap copy or hommage arse.


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## Running_man (Dec 2, 2005)

FPN Arthur said:


> I think you are all up your own arses.


C**T! :fyou:


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## Stuart Davies (Jan 13, 2008)

FPN Arthur said:


> I think you are all up your own arses.


 :huh: Get out of bed the wrong side did we?


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## tomshep (Oct 2, 2008)

The opening post on this topic contained a barely disguised agenda. Somebody who worked in design suggesting that Western design was good but out of people's reach and, by implication, that we should all have the opportunity to wear fakes, which opportunity we have.

How he would feel if his own intellectual property was pirated is not revealed but the concept of "West is best" needs challenging.

The fact is that for the cost of a fake, one can buy a real and good watch. A Chinese ETA probably costs as much as an Orange Monster; not my taste but a recognisable and credible watch. Â£30 will get you an Amphibian which is not only cheap and mechanical but interesting as well. Orients cost about Â£60, are well made and well finished, keeping good time. None of these is a Western watch and none is a fake, either.

Even if you want bespoke custom built Western mechanical watches, the entry level from RLT is only about Â£150.

So you don't need to buy a fake. We know that. We are interested in watches.

The reason why somebody buys a fake recalls the wise words of Zaphod Beeblebrox IV:

"Because he is an ignorant monkey who knows no better." And he shows that on his wrist.


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## Livius de Balzac (Oct 6, 2006)

Fake watches are for fake people!


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## Toshi (Aug 31, 2007)

FPN Arthur said:


> I think you are all up your own arses.












why ask for people's opnions if you don't want to hear them?









coming back to your original post I'm surprised someone who says design plays a part in their work even asked the question. How are you going to feel if someone rips off a design you have worked hard to create simply because in their opinion you are charging too much? Of course there should be some form of protection for companies who attempt to innovate rather than just immitate. Now if you had an interest in the company you linked to initially then I would understand the point of your post 

One final thing. The fact that you seem to equate quality with price shows me how little you know :tongue2:


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

What a pile of ooh: 

If we just ban the use of the word "*f a k e*" anywhere on The Watch Forum, that should do it. So you can own them, talk about them, even post pictures of them, just don't use that four lettered word...


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## Guest (Nov 4, 2008)

Running_man said:


> FPN Arthur said:
> 
> 
> > I think you are all up your own arses.
> ...


+ 1

Arthur has shown his true colours, and has resorted to insults rather than reasoned debate. Running mans reply would normally be viewed as being  ............... but in this case, I couldn't have put it better myself :thumbsup:

Jase, can I borrow your pitchfork h34r:


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## Running_man (Dec 2, 2005)

catflem said:


> Running_man said:
> 
> 
> > FPN Arthur said:
> ...


To be honest Lee, maybe it was a bit strong but the sentiment is there, especially when dealing with trolls. To any newbies and / or lurkers, this forum is a friendly and informative place where all are welcome. Apologies to Roy and Mods if I've overstepped the mark.

A.


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

FPN Arthur said:


> Running_man said:
> 
> 
> > In my experience, most people who own fake watches just want a cheap beater to tell the time with and if anything, don't really care about watches other than for this reason. Many probably wouldn't know the model or style name that their fake watch is trying to ape.
> ...


arthur dont give in stay and fight .

if it stops these threads by all means ban everything to do with fakes - there are other forums to talk about them anyway isnt there.

i own a fake but ive never posted or brought it up on here ,if someone wants an opinion on them though ill give it .

i think its a bit odd the way its looked upon on this forum ,you almost treat people who want to dabble in fakes as they are peado's or neo nazi's or something ,its just a fake watch for gods sake if folk want to wear them then they should be able to surely ,just dont go on about them on here its simple .it doesnt make the person any less -personally if i was to buy one it would be one i know id never be able to afford and wanted to own or one just to see what all the fuss was about not because im trying to fit in .

sorry i keep stoking this up but its getting a bit silly now people are starting to talk.

now lets move on

jason.


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## Boxbrownie (Aug 11, 2005)

Did I miss something? :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Silver Hawk (Dec 2, 2003)

Boxbrownie said:


> Did I miss something? :lol: :lol: :lol:


No...nothing.


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## spankone (Sep 17, 2008)

may I suggest to a mod that this thread be split from post 69 and the rudeness deleted... the rest should be stickied for future with a must read "Fakes" title


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## Livius de Balzac (Oct 6, 2006)

FPN Arthur said:


> Hello all. My interest in watches started 45 years ago, I got a self winding Oris for a birthday present, I have tried to keep buying watches since then and now own a Lange and Sohn, a Patek Philiipe - my daily user, a Rolex Daytona and a Datejust.
> 
> A few others in the drawer such as a 70s Citizen and a Seiko or two.
> 
> ...


If you own a Lange, Patek and two Rolex, how could you even consider to buy a fake watch?


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## mel (Dec 6, 2006)

mach 0.0013137 said:


> Actually, I`m not certain that some forum members actually exist but are instead merely the products of a deranged imagination
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now I'm really worried - do I really exist, or am I a fake, copy, or homage Mel - and should I ask Mrs Mel if I exist? :lol:

Never mind, I'll just put the garlic necklace on and go look in the mirror - if there's a reflection will that prove anything?

Screens, tablets, straitjacket, anklechains - aarrrgh!


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## langtoftlad (Mar 31, 2007)

Chally2 said:


> We've seen threads of this nature posted so many times before but I canâ€™t recall the real question being asked, what drives people to want a fake watch in the first place?
> 
> I have a theory and Iâ€™d like to see other peopleâ€™s thoughts too.
> 
> ...


I thought this the most interesting comment so far.

As we're interested in watches we sort of assume that people who wear fakes are people who aspire to the genuine article but can't/won't afford it.

To my shame, I used to buy fakes :icon18: but I was young, didn't know any better and they were "genuine" fakes!

On trips to the Far East we used to buy cheap quartz watches for a fiver - thing is, we didn't know if they were "copies" of any particular proprietary design - we just bought because they looked good, were very cheap and actually were pretty decent quality for the price (would last a couple of years, allegedly some had Seiko movements). The name printed on the dial was secondary.

I buy watches because I like the look and feel of them - I don't buy watches because they have a certain name on them.

I wouldn't ever now buy a watch which was labelled other than by the manufacturer - but I do think some of us do get a bit precious about which are copies/homages/fakes

As Jaslfc5 said why is a Grovana acceptable but an Alpha not? Is snobbery involved because one is considerably more expensive than the other? When both take their inspiration from the same source.

Where is the line?

This question applies to everything. As soon as anyone designs anything which becomes commercially popular then it's not long before all the other manufacturer's in their market come along with their own 'version'.

Who knows which of them simply reverse engineer to make a direct copy or who is just inspired by the "original".

No disrespect intended - but RLT46 ? It's clear where the "inspiration" for that comes from but yet there's a certain sniffiness about the HKG Marina Miltitares.

I know where my own personal line is - and that's all that really matters.


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## jaslfc5 (Jan 2, 2007)

langtoftlad said:


> Chally2 said:
> 
> 
> > We've seen threads of this nature posted so many times before but I canâ€™t recall the real question being asked, what drives people to want a fake watch in the first place?
> ...


well said it is down to personal preference end of the day -you are not a robot.

jason.


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## Russ (Feb 7, 2006)

langtoftlad said:


> Chally2 said:
> 
> 
> > We've seen threads of this nature posted so many times before but I canâ€™t recall the real question being asked, what drives people to want a fake watch in the first place?
> ...


Wise words.


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## James (Jul 17, 2006)

yes wise men 

here in Canada, you get caught selling fakes it may get you jail time


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## MarkF (Jul 5, 2003)

He's right, German customs still have a bundle of my watches that were confiscated from a bus on my way back from Poland in 2002. They were not even fakes, mainly Poljots and Vostocks, they are "on the ball" those guys


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## thunderbolt (May 19, 2007)

MarkF said:


> He's right, German customs still have a bundle of my watches that were confiscated from a bus on my way back from Poland in 2002. They were not even fakes, mainly Poljots and Vostocks, they are "on the ball" those guys


Don't talk to me about German customs! They confiscated my Zippo on the way back from Berlin and wanted 40 euros to post it on to me. They seemed to be confiscating a lot of stuff IIRC.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

potz said:


> MarkF said:
> 
> 
> > He's right, German customs still have a bundle of my watches that were confiscated from a bus on my way back from Poland in 2002. They were not even fakes, mainly Poljots and Vostocks, they are "on the ball" those guys
> ...


is that a homage chris? :lol:

cool zippo fella


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## tertius (Jan 30, 2007)

jaslfc5 said:


> langtoftlad said:
> 
> 
> > Chally2 said:
> ...


I agree, good post.

I suspect that the reason these threads generate so much attention (and as an aside I personally think its right that we discuss them here and elsewhere, as if not then where?) is that the definitions of _fake_, _hommage_, _replica_, _whatever_ are not generally accepted and accordingly what is OK and what is not swiftly deteriorates into a discussion of interpretations, usually at cross-purposes.

For me, the definitions look something like this:

_Fake_ or _replica_ - a watch that is intended to exactly resemble that of another maker, including style and branding, manufactured with the express intention to deceive - *not OK*

_Hommage_ - a watch that takes styling cues from that of another maker, but does not exactly resemble it, does not carry the same branding and is not intended to deceive - *OK*

Does that resonate with anyone?

PS how many m's in hommmmmage?


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## SharkBike (Apr 15, 2005)

Shouldn't quality and functionality be added to the definitions?

For example, Grovanas are said to be quality, functional divers. Some specs from Roy's sales site...

Swiss ETA Automatic Wind with hack seconds and quick set calendar.Signed screw down crown. Unidirectional rotating bezel. Sapphire cyclops crystal. 300m / 1000 ft Water resistant.Signed Solid link Steel bracelet with divers extension and solid lug pieces.

I've never seen a Grovana or Alpha in person, but seems to me if it simply _looks_ like the original, but can't measure up in the performance category, then it ain't right.


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## James (Jul 17, 2006)

Anyway. Further to the argument of fakes. When an old Swiss name is taken by a new company. Is that then a fake? In the 50's there were some real nice Alpha chronos, but we beat the poor Alpha to death, not bad time pieces.

What pisses me off is when something is made to look like an original. I pride myself in collecting Landeron movements and the pieces they come in! Now we have a Chinese clone, that I take offense to, the fact it dirties what I so enjoy, a good Landeron time piece.

One is the real thing, one is a fake at $600USD. They are even called vintage. Idiots


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## Chally2 (Jul 11, 2008)

I have a "Hamilton" Ventura quartz that cost about Â£300, strangely it keeps much poorer time than a CWC G10 that cost Â£50.

Far be it from me to suggest that the Swiss simply trade on a brand name and charge a lot of money for watches of poor substance, I'll leave that up to someone else. 

I would have hoped that the new "Hamilton Watch Company" might have put a decent quartz movement into a watch that is supposed to represent an icon of one of the most respected watch makers of the past.

But no, they chucked a cheap movement into it and traded on the name.

I'm saving up for a real Ventura, this "fake" pisses me off.


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## adrian (May 23, 2004)

jaslfc5 said:


> arthur dont give in stay and fight .
> 
> if it stops these threads by all means ban everything to do with fakes - there are other forums to talk about them anyway isnt there.
> 
> ...


This wasn't about the debate, it was about the language. We discussed fakes before, still doing now and most likely will do so in the future. Everyone has 2 bobs to throw and nobody and no topic got banned unless it stepped out of a decent language. We have the "politics" forum for strong words.


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## mrteatime (Oct 25, 2006)

potz said:


> What is real is this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


now,,,,,,,,how cool is that!


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