# To All Accuracy Freaks Out There



## Roamer Man (May 25, 2011)

Vintage watches usually either gain or lose â€" sometimes by quite a lot! Regulation, depending how careful you are, sometimes works, but not always. For instance, my small hand Roamer was losing well over a minute daily. So, Iâ€™d regulate, only to find it made no real difference. After days of this, I decided to investigate further, before tearing it apart.

I started logging the timings of all my vintage watches on Excel (three times daily). This way, I keep track of several watches at once and easily compare performance. With the analytical capability of spreadsheets, Iâ€™ve set up three columns. All that's needed is to enter the 'watch time'. Then another calculates the absolute deviation from the start time, and another to calculate relative variations between absolutes. It's interesting, because it's revealed mechanical defects, which would otherwise go unnoticed. So now, days later, It's easy to draw up comparative compound performance graphs to show the timing data visually.

Whether it tells me a balance is out of poise, or a pallet stone loose, or a mainspring sticking I haven't figured out (yet), and eventually, of course, Iâ€™ll still have to get physical with the watch, but hopefully Iâ€™ll have a better idea which bits to look at!

A bit OTT and pointless I hear you say. Maybe, but itâ€™s better than hanging about on street cornersâ€¦.?


----------



## tixntox (Jul 17, 2009)

I worked as a transport manager for around 15 years and used the data to analyse allsorts of things. (In the days before computers!) When tachographs came in it was even more useful. It's amazing what you can gain from data. We also had the old oil analysed by our oil supplier (free of charge as I recall) and we could spot bearing, valve and piston wear and even faulty injectors from the results!

Mike


----------



## Roamer Man (May 25, 2011)

tixntox said:


> I worked as a transport manager for around 15 years and used the data to analyse allsorts of things. (In the days before computers!) When tachographs came in it was even more useful. It's amazing what you can gain from data. We also had the old oil analysed by our oil supplier (free of charge as I recall) and we could spot bearing, valve and piston wear and even faulty injectors from the results!
> 
> Mike


I can well believe that Mike. I see it all as forms of 'remote sensing'. Just like satellite imagery, seismic surveying, CT scans and the like.

All I need to do now is figure out how make a specific diagnosis based on the data. With a vintage sometimes just a basic clean and oil is all that is required, but that's only if you're lucky. The Roamer in question was bought because 1) it was beautiful and 2) the description read that it had been 'fully serviced' by an expert, but I think not! A full service means restoring to original spec with new parts if required.


----------



## Roamer Man (May 25, 2011)

Roamer Man said:


> tixntox said:
> 
> 
> > I worked as a transport manager for around 15 years and used the data to analyse allsorts of things. (In the days before computers!) When tachographs came in it was even more useful. It's amazing what you can gain from data. We also had the old oil analysed by our oil supplier (free of charge as I recall) and we could spot bearing, valve and piston wear and even faulty injectors from the results!
> ...


Well, I'm still mulling over the data for the vintage Roamers. Meanwhile, I put two new watches under the same 'microscope' - the Roamer Mercury and the Tissot Le Locle, and of course they are much more accurate than the vintages because they haven't had a chance to wear yet. But interestingly - there is a daily variance of up to approx. +/- 4 secs. with each, which is admirable, but I notice that the two watch's fluctuations occur in opposite directions, regularly. This puzzled me at first. Why would that be so?

Well, I think I've sussed it - I'm actually recording daily temperature fluctuation-responses in the balances, and the reason for the daily 'piruet' between them is because they have different balances (one has the ETA 2824.2 movement, the other the TechnoSalbier SSDD3). Whether they're made of Glycadur or Nickel/Gilt I can't say, but obviously one is designed to react one way, the other the opposite way, but both ending up the same place over the course of 24hrs. Until they use/invent a totally temperature-insensitive material, this is what the designers just have to cope with as best they can?

As far as I'm concerned it's QED and testifies to the value of spreadsheets, unless anyone disagrees...


----------



## Mikrolisk (Jan 23, 2008)

Well, I used my 1830ies pocket watch for a one-week business trip to vienna, without regulating it during this trip. After coming home again, the watch just had 2mins difference. And a Hamilton pw from 1905 just made below 30s per week.

Accuracy is possible with most of our watches!

Andreas


----------



## bridgeman (Dec 9, 2008)

very interesting..but where do "adjusted to x positions" "unadjusted" and I suppose "chronometer" fit into this..? do we expect too much accuracy these days with quartz comparison? its a fascinating topic. Do quartz vary on a much smaller scale with temperature?


----------



## Mikrolisk (Jan 23, 2008)

An "adjusted" watch is very accurate and regulated by the manufacturer. An "unadjusted" watch can be regulated by the selling jeweller almost with the same accuracy. Chronometers are just "watches that are very accurate" (or by other definition "a watch with a chronometer detent escapement").

Andreas


----------



## bridgeman (Dec 9, 2008)

yes Andreas,very true,but is Roamer Man OP actualy comparing like with like at the original sale price point of the watch? If the price of the watch was dependent on the cost or design of the movement should we expect more accuracy in the costlier movements despite temperature variation? Some of the oldies were marked thermo/temperature compensated?

Great topic by the way.


----------



## tall_tim (Jul 29, 2009)

Roamer Man said:


> Well, I think I've sussed it - I'm actually recording daily temperature fluctuation-responses in the balances, and the reason for the daily 'piruet' between them is because they have different balances (one has the ETA 2824.2 movement, the other the TechnoSalbier SSDD3). Whether they're made of Glycadur or Nickel/Gilt I can't say, but obviously one is designed to react one way, the other the opposite way, but both ending up the same place over the course of 24hrs. Until they use/invent a totally temperature-insensitive material, this is what the designers just have to cope with as best they can?
> 
> As far as I'm concerned it's QED and testifies to the value of spreadsheets, unless anyone disagrees...


I look after a large church tower clock, it requires winding twice a week and the timekeeping is hugely dependant on weather conditions - not just temperature but humidity too. Over the weekend my folks were up visiting us and staying in a B&B that happens to be next to the church, so my dad was keeping tabs on the bells ringing at 8am when his alarm clock went off. On the Friday morning the clock was spot on - I had set it the night before. Saturday morning it was 10 seconds fast as Friday was a cooler day, Saturday however was a scorcher and by sunday morning it had slowed by 20 seconds. Sunday was very similar temperature wise to saturday but it was a sticky humid day, the clock slowed by an additional 30 seconds by Monday morning.


----------



## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

Hi there,

Anyhow nobody is ever on time is this part of the world, so I have been forced to become a little less clockwise than I used to be,

most of my watches are vintage, & I am happy they work, as long as there less than a few minutes a day out, it does not bother me anymore, I quite like resetting them 

But I have been amazed with my vintage Seiko's I find they calibrate very well & very accurately within seconds a day/week. I have not been that fussed to test further but if its accuracy is your thing, you may want to consider checking them out,

good post BTW

Cheers Martin :thumbsup:


----------



## Roamer Man (May 25, 2011)

bridgeman said:


> yes Andreas,very true,but is Roamer Man OP actualy comparing like with like at the original sale price point of the watch? If the price of the watch was dependent on the cost or design of the movement should we expect more accuracy in the costlier movements despite temperature variation? Some of the oldies were marked thermo/temperature compensated?
> 
> Great topic by the way.


As it happens, the two watches are in similar price brackets - the low-middle range. I suppose this means the movements have little or no engraving, and are mass produced rather than made by independents, but both companies 'breathe' on the movements they buy in, in their own mysterious ways. I don't know about TechnoSalbier, but current ETA's come in four grades from the factory. These are 'Standard', 'Elabore', 'Top' and 'Chrono'.

It's complicated, but the differences between them seem to be in the choice of materials used in making certain critical components. I've looked into it, and comparing specs suggests it's the barrel spring, barrel damper, balance wheel and hair spring which are involved. The different materials used are â€" Nivaflex NO/Nivaflex NM, Etachron/Incabloc, Nickel-Gilt/Glycadur and Nivarox2/Anachron, which determine how accurate the movement is, 'all things being equal'.

To achieve the rigours of a C.O.S.C certificate, I suppose they'd have to use a Chrono grade movement to start with, although my two watches seem to achieve this sort of standard (according to my amateur non-rigourous testing).

I think they use a five-position test procedure, repeated at three different temperatures. The max. deviation overall allowed is something like -/+ 4 and 6 secs daily. Other grades of ETA achieve lesser results.

So what grade of movements do my watches have. I have asked, but manufacturers are very, very coy. The nearest I got to an answer was from my local Roamer/Tissot/etc dealer. I was enquiring about buying a Roamer Saturn (with the same ETA 2824-2 as the Tissot) at the time, and was quite insistent to know just how accurate i.e.what grade of ETA they were, because it costs Â£100 more than the le Locle.

It's a long story how I came to buy a Roamer Mercury in the end, but unknown to me was the fact he'd had a visit from the Roamer rep a week earlier. Anyway, so when pressed he referred to some documents the rep had left, and he came back with the answer 'within 5 secs/day' (rather dismissively, like I had no business even asking!).

Anyway, we seem to have drifted slightly off-topic. To return, virtually all vintage watches of quality will have temperature-compensated balances, usually the bi-metal split type, with balance weights. Nowadays with new(ish) alloys they don't need the weights? That's just as well, because setting up a split balance with weights is a highly skilled lengthy task, not to be tackled by the feint-hearted!


----------



## Roamer Man (May 25, 2011)

martinzx said:


> ...But I have been amazed with my vintage Seiko's I find they calibrate very well & very accurately within seconds a day/week. I have not been that fussed to test further but if its accuracy is your thing, you may want to consider checking them out,
> 
> good post BTW
> 
> Cheers Martin :thumbsup:


As it happens I do have a 3-year old Seiko SNX425K with the 7S26A movement. Really nice-looking watch, but it was keeping truly aweful time. So I sent it to Roy for regulating. It did improve quite dramatically at first, but was still 'off' again soon after.

The case back is an odd one which I can't undo until Roy gets some more of those 'screw-ball' things in again (hint, hint). Maybe I'll have a go myself when he does.


----------



## Roamer Man (May 25, 2011)

bridgeman said:


> very interesting..but where do "adjusted to x positions" "unadjusted" and I suppose "chronometer" fit into this..? do we expect too much accuracy these days with quartz comparison? its a fascinating topic. Do quartz vary on a much smaller scale with temperature?


I believe quartz is much less temperature-sensitive, and also, intrinsically more stable and therefore more accurate (depending on how many jewels?). I do have an almost-vintage Seiko SQ dress watch, which is phenomenally accurate, even after 25 years of use. I also have a new-ish Eco-drive which is a bit less accurate.

Perhaps we have a quartz/Eco expert among us who can answer this properly?


----------



## Roamer Man (May 25, 2011)

While I'm about it, I have one more angle to pursue on this whole question. Do watches gain anyway, as the mainspring unwinds?

I'm thinking of the mechanics involved here, in connection with the amplitude of the balance. The way I see it is that, as the torque of the power train diminishes (albeit very slightly), it will throw the balance ever-so slightly less to and fro, thereby causing a speeding up of the action?

Seems logical, but I'm not sure, it's such a deep subject. Obviously manual wind watches would be more affected, whereas autos, being fully wound always when worn, wouldn't be. This is to say, if manuals are wound to full, say once a day, then 'all things being equal' they'd run down to about half between winds (assuming an approx 40-hour power reserve).

The reason I ask is because my mother's new Ladies Tissot automatic Le Locle (with the ETA 2671) is gaining several minutes a month. I was going to have it looked at, but it occurs to me that being 91 years old, she's simply not moving around enough to keep it fully wound!

Any comments..?


----------



## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

Roamer Man said:


> martinzx said:
> 
> 
> > ...But I have been amazed with my vintage Seiko's I find they calibrate very well & very accurately within seconds a day/week. I have not been that fussed to test further but if its accuracy is your thing, you may want to consider checking them out,
> ...


When i say vintage I mean 1970's , cant say for the newer Seiko's I have heard mixed reports

You can get the screwball openers on Ebay

cheers Martin :thumbsup:


----------



## Roamer Man (May 25, 2011)

martinzx said:


> Roamer Man said:
> 
> 
> > martinzx said:
> ...


As it further happens..my SNX425K is one of six Seiko 5s I bought to sell on eBay a few years ago (wholesale for Â£30, with cards and original boxes). They didn't sell at all at first, so I hung on to them for a couple of years and gave two away as gifts, while keeping the 'best ones'. They were truly stunning to look at, the finish was high and everything.

Eventually, I off-loaded three of them dirt cheap on eBay after two years for Â£39.99, making about Â£4 apiece, keeping just one for myself.

The two I gave away likewise keep aweful time, so I must contact the three buyers again to see if they too were equally disappointed! I'm not saying all Seikos are rubbish, but speak as you find..


----------



## ong (Jul 31, 2008)

I've had 2 Seiko 5s. The first I bought in 1991 and apart from needing a service in 1999 ran perfectly and kept good time. My local watch repairer at the time did the service. However... in 2003 I bought a Seiko5 with a &s26A Japan movement for Â£30 in Bahrein airport as I was passing through back in days of my international travelling. I was well chuffed, much better build quality and the blue dial was the envy of many ( some mistook it for a Rolex even). However by 2006 the rotor was sticking and it was losing minutes every day. Local man reckoned it had never been oiled in the factory,and serviced it but it has never been right since and haven't bought another Seiko as a result.

Guess the Â£30 price should have warned me....



Roamer Man said:


> martinzx said:
> 
> 
> > Roamer Man said:
> ...


----------

