# New Ð¨Ñ‚ÑƒÑ€Ð¼Ð°Ð½ÑÐºÐ¸â€‹Ð• Arrival.



## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

This thing showed up today.










Now I'd like some collective input as to it's age.

Here are some of the details:

3133 latin movement, with a "P" on it.

18mm lugs.

Plated case, with caseback retaining ring.

Blunt tipped hands.

Tall boy crystal.




























It had a terrible herringbone sort of bracelet on it, which I removed. It also came with a grimey stamped leather Poljot strap. I removed the buckle with the logo and put it on a new plain Ð'ocÑ‚ok strap I had.










It seems like a mix of 80's and 90's to me, going by some of the threads I've read on this forum. What's the verdict?

A further thought: I think I'll get a MoD G10 grey "NATO" for it, it'll look awesome with that.









Later,

William


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

William_Wilson said:


> I think I'll get a MoD G10 grey "NATO" for it, it'll look awesome with that.


I was going to help you but not anymore! :bangin:


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

Kutusov said:


> William_Wilson said:
> 
> 
> > I think I'll get a MoD G10 grey "NATO" for it, it'll look awesome with that.
> ...


I can't help myself, or I can't be helped, something like that anyway. 

Later,

William


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Well, anyway....









My guess is it's an export model but still a Soviet era one... so late 80s.

I was reading just the other day about the myth of the "SU" stamped on the movement these watches and it turns out they are not found on watches pre-91, so still Soviet. Your's doesn't have that but has all those nice refinements like the Poljot crown stamped at the 7 position.


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## chris l (Aug 5, 2005)

Kutusov said:


> ...I was reading just the other day about the myth of the "SU" stamped on the movement these watches ...


I have two Soviet era 3133 Sturmanksies and both are stamped 'SU'. Is this unusual; I thought it the norm?


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## Vaurien (Jul 19, 2010)

chris l said:


> Kutusov said:
> 
> 
> > ...I was reading just the other day about the myth of the "SU" stamped on the movement these watches ...
> ...


The "P" before "3133" on the movement is the initial for Russia, so I think this watch is a post '91 product.

Very fine! :notworthy:


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## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

Kutusov said:


> Well, anyway....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a bit of a blanket statement mate,

Can you clarify please  or link the article :thumbsup:

I have pre 1991 watches with SU stamped on them, I have some pre 1991 that are not stamped 

Maybe some watches post 1991 were made with SU stamped on them also using old stock, just to add to the charm of USSR Horology  but IMHO does not mean all watches stamped with SU are not Soviet Union period.

thoughts please

Cheers Martin :thumbsup:


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## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

Vaurien said:


> chris l said:
> 
> 
> > Kutusov said:
> ...


I agree with Anna , & very nice it is William :thumbsup:


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## Roamer Man (May 25, 2011)

Going purely on the case shape, I'd put this at exactly 1967! I might be talking complete rubbish, but I was advised on this by a Sekonda expert here who seemed to know what he was talking about.


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## Roamer Man (May 25, 2011)

Roamer Man said:


> Going purely on the case shape, I'd put this at exactly 1967! I might be talking complete rubbish, but I was advised on this by a Sekonda expert here who seemed to know what he was talking about.


Sorry, I meant 1977..


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

See Will? It's a XXth century watch, give or take  



martinzx said:


> That is a bit of a blanket statement mate,
> 
> Can you clarify please  or link the article :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


I thought that was odd too and was very surprised to read that. It's somewhere on WUS and apparently applies only to the 3133s, not Vostoks and such. I can't find the thing now I'll link it if I find it.

Take this with a pinch of salt (or two, or three...) though. I agree this should be better looked into but after reading that I googled for images of soviet-era 3133s and the ones that came up don't have the SU stamp so maybe there's something to it...

Anyway, here's this: http://www.bdwf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=70396


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Ah, and here's another take on this: http://www.bdwf.net/forum/showthread.php?t=73388

From the link:

2 piece reset lever with silver colored chrono wheels - 1975-1980

Silver colored balance wheel - late 1980s

Stamped with 3133 - late 1970s - early 1980s

Stamped with SU 3133 - late 1980s

Stamped with P3133 - Post soviet

So if that's right, SU is definitely Soviet and Will's is post-1991.


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## Lampoc (Oct 31, 2010)

I'd say it wasn't one of the earlier models as I believe these had a brushed silver effect dial - unless yours has had a dial replacement. I'd also say it was a civilian model as the military ones were stainless steel and not plated. Wouldn't like to hazard a guess at the age mind... oh go on then - mid 80's 

edit after readin Kutusovs post: I meant post 1991


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

Thanks everyone. 

My take on this watch:

There is no doubt that this is post 70's/early 80's. The case, dial, hands and movement are incorrect for a military watch. Logic suggests that Soviet export movements would have "SU" stamped on them. The reason being that SU is meaningless in Russian, but would stand for "Soviet Union" in english. The "P" as a post Soviet markinging makes perfect sense, as Anna said. I don't know if post Soviet 3133 movements, intended for domestic distribution, were still marked in cyrillic. Many other products remained cyrillic domestically and were latin for export. It would seem to be a 90's watch.

One other question, did the cases remain plated during the 90's (not becoming SS until the reissue in the 21st century)?

Later,

William


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

William_Wilson said:


> One other question, did the cases remain plated during the 90's (not becoming SS until the reissue in the 21st century)?
> 
> Later,
> 
> William


Aparently, both versions existed but the plated case was used until 2002 http://forums.watchuseek.com/f10/advice-purchasing-sturmanskie-please-574663.html (polmax3133 post).

...I really like that full black reissue, if anyone wants to trade one for my grey...


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## Lampoc (Oct 31, 2010)

William_Wilson said:


> One other question, did the cases remain plated during the 90's (not becoming SS until the reissue in the 21st century)?


Yes, they were still knocking out chromium plated cases in the early 90's. (I'm not really an expert - I'm pulling all this info from Juri Levenbergs book which is sat in front of me  )


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Lampoc said:


> Yes, they were still knocking out chromium plated cases in the early 90's. (I'm not really an expert - I'm pulling all this info from Juri Levenbergs book which is sat in front of me  )


Ooohhh, Mr. Frankenwatch... maybe not the best of references for these Lampoc... that seller is renowned for having some very strange puppies for sale... That particular book he wrote is also pretty funny in the way that he goes classifying how rare a Vostok is and then goes along and sets a price on the Vostoks he sells according to his own book. If you look at his catalogue, the guy sells some Vostoks you can find for â‚¬40 on the bay by something like â‚¬150. I would steer clear if I were you...


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## Lampoc (Oct 31, 2010)

Wow. Just checked his prices on ebay - he's on another planet isn't he? No danger of me buying anything from him at those prices. It's not a great book by any means but it's got some fairly decent info in it plus it's the only book on Amazon I could find about Russian watches. Really surprised there aren't more.

I had heard that he made his own special edition Poljots but that's about it.


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Lampoc said:


> I had heard that he made his own special edition Poljots but that's about it.


Juri's special edition Poljot :rofl2: :rofl2: That I didn't know (the fact that he calls it a special edition). Well, there you have it!


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## Lampoc (Oct 31, 2010)

Doesn't he call them 'Pilots'? 

I actually owned one - A SU-37 'Berkut'. Didn't really like it so sold it on. Nice case but I thought the dial was a bit sloppy. It even had a certificate signed by Juri himsef!


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Lampoc said:


> Doesn't he call them 'Pilots'?
> 
> I actually owned one - A SU-37 'Berkut'. Didn't really like it so sold it on. Nice case but I thought the dial was a bit sloppy. It even had a certificate signed by Juri himsef!


Ah, but that IS a Pilot... is a brand that came out of post-Poljot period. There are plenty around but I don't know if the brand is still in production, I don't think it is. Aviator and Pilot watches were probably a vague brand of ex-Poljot factories trying to pull themselves together and trying to reach the western market so it didn't took much for you to be an "official dealer" if such thing existed.

Anyway, now that there is a srtong brand like Volmax, you can see that Juri is not an official dealer. Irina Maier is the German distributer and there's no Mr. Juri on her official retailer lists.

He's selling that particular Pilot for â‚¬400, Stephan Paul in Austria sells it for â‚¬279 (on leather though).

Pilot has a very nice model for the Aviator Wings of the Motherland fans. It's very similar but costs about â‚¬200 less (the Aviator has a price tag around â‚¬770)


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## Lampoc (Oct 31, 2010)

I was under the impression that the Pilot brand was owned by Juri Levenberg. The movements are Russian but the cases/dial shipped in from China?


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Lampoc said:


> I was under the impression that the Pilot brand was owned by Juri Levenberg. The movements are Russian but the cases/dial shipped in from China?


No, not by a long shot... he says that??

I don't know where the dials and cases come from but I think not, at least for the cases. They seem to be the same sort that Poljot used and later the Aviator brand. I would have to look into it but my guess is they are 100% Russian (or Easter European at least).


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## Lampoc (Oct 31, 2010)

"PILOT is a brand owned by russian watches specialist no. 1 in the world and book author - JURI LEVENBERG. We work with him for almost 10 years already. His watches were sometimes made after our request - in the MakTime factory in Moscow, successor of the famous 1st Moscow Watch Factory. The BERKUT Chronos are the mostwanted so far and often sold out. Also available DIVER handwind 3105 and Pilot 2008 Automatic watches."

from here: http://www.aviation-time.com/526/Pilot

Been googling and also seen it on a few forums.


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Lampoc said:


> "PILOT is a brand owned by russian watches specialist no. 1 in the world and book author - JURI LEVENBERG. We work with him for almost 10 years already. His watches were sometimes made after our request - in the MakTime factory in Moscow, successor of the famous 1st Moscow Watch Factory. The BERKUT Chronos are the mostwanted so far and often sold out. Also available DIVER handwind 3105 and Pilot 2008 Automatic watches."
> 
> from here: http://www.aviation-time.com/526/Pilot
> 
> Been googling and also seen it on a few forums.


I find this very hard to believe and seems to me a dubious information as the original text goes like this: "PILOT is (like STRELA) a brand owned by russian watches specialist no. 1 in the world and book author - JURI LEVENBERG." He doesn't own any brand called Strela because Strela isn't a brand.

I'm going to drop an email to a Polish seller from whom I bought some watches before or Julian Kampmann, he also sells these. If it is true, then Juri is a lousy businessman... so he commissions the watches, resells them and still manages to have prices 1/3 to 50% more expensive than his clients and competitors? I don't buy it but I confess I'm crossing my fingers that that isn't true...


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Aaaaaarrrggghhhhh!!!!! Crap :groan:

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f54/clarification-poljot-volmax-vostok-europe-some-russian-watch-brands-ufos-2618.html

That's a post from Irina, the official distributor of Volmax, Poljot (NOS), Vostok, VE and Denissov on Germany.... I guess you were right... Pilot is an UFO :astro:


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Here's another one as Moscow Classic and Denissov are stated as UFO brands on the other link...

http://forums.watchuseek.com/f54/clarification-about-%93new-russian-brands%94-moscow-classic-denissov-others-24426.html

Things have changed since then, Moscow Classic has a site and you can read their history there.

It remains unclear to me what exactly are the Pilot watches (included in a Poljot splinter company mentioned as Poljot Trade). Seems to me that there are two kinds... Russian, commissioned I don't know by who, and JL versions with Miyotas, Chinese movements and used or NOS Russian movements cased by him.

It's a bloody mess and I'm a bit sick and tiered of generally answering help posts by "my guess is". We should have a sticky like this on this forum. I don't have the time to research and write one but I'm thinking of starting a thread where people can discuss and post their findings that could ultimately lead to some kind of final text...

Sorry for the highjack of your thread Will...


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## William_Wilson (May 21, 2007)

Kutusov said:


> Sorry for the highjack of your thread Will...


Not a problem, I seem to do it often enough. :lol:

Isn't there one other complication with the Poljot/Pilot situation? I of course mean the Forkus... err, Fortis watch company. They became upset with some of the names and styling used by the Russian, then German, companies, as I recall.

Later,

William


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

William_Wilson said:


> Isn't there one other complication with the Poljot/Pilot situation? I of course mean the Forkus... err, Fortis watch company. They became upset with some of the names and styling used by the Russian, then German, companies, as I recall.
> 
> Later,
> 
> William


Yeap, that's another story. I've just reviewed my facts before posting what lays ahead, so it's freshy-fresh knowledge (I really should be working on my thesis though...  )

So apparently what happened wasn't that Fortis went after Poljot because the look-alike design. Fortis had kicked off their Flieger models and Poljot made the Aviator I. The problem was that a German importer (I wonder who...  but I really couldn't find who he was) got the Aviator I from Russia and advertised it as "It's just like the Fortis"... literally!

So Fortis went to court and the verdict was that the importer (not Poljot) was intended in defraud Fortis and its intellectual property. What followed was a ban from sale of those Poljot in Germany. Switzerland, home of Fortis, happily followed the German verdict.

Now, I'm not pointing names (cough... JL... cough) but obviously Poljot was pretty pissed off with that importer that caused them to loose two big western European markets. I can think of a particular Germany-based Russian watch seller to whom Russian watchmaker companies refuse to sell their watches... 

BTW, a lot of PMs and emails on their way so I think we'll know more about the Pilot brand by tomorrow...


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

Well, I have just received the last replay to my emails and PMs... and my head hurts :shocking: The history of these watches is a complete mess. I got loads of informations but I still don't have a complete picture. I'll have to re-read everything some other time because the puzzle pieces don't seem to fit...


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## Lampoc (Oct 31, 2010)

Kutusov said:


> Well, I have just received the last replay to my emails and PMs... and my head hurts :shocking: The history of these watches is a complete mess. I got loads of informations but I still don't have a complete picture. I'll have to re-read everything some other time because the puzzle pieces don't seem to fit...


Confusing isn't the word! I'd be really interested to know what you've managed to find out. I'm still a relative newcomer to Russian watches but am trying to devour as much knowledge about them as possible - there seems to be conflicting information all over the internet.


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## martinzx (Aug 29, 2010)

I was under the impression Pilot was JL, making UFO's 

I would consult with Chascomm & our very own Anna ( Vaurien) if you have not already done so, I have researched it in the past, but with conflicting reports

Chascomm is the member who knows wants going on, he is the USSR/Russian moderator at Watchuseek & posts here occasionally other places. It is a bit of a minefield post 1991 alot jumped on the gravy train making money on USSR watch brands.

I think that is why I mostly collect USSR brands only pre 1991, less confussion.

The likes of Vostok Europe are quality watches, but how long will they be posted in the USSR/Russian watch section, what counts as a Russian brand?

History? marketing? pray tell?







:comando: :boxing: :thumbup:

Anyway happy researching :angel_not:

Cheers Martin & please keep us updated :thumbsup:


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## Vaurien (Jul 19, 2010)

Kutusov said:


> Well, I have just received the last replay to my emails and PMs... and my head hurts :shocking: The history of these watches is a complete mess. I got loads of informations but I still don't have a complete picture. I'll have to re-read everything some other time because the puzzle pieces don't seem to fit...


Oh, please, read what you want but then let us know... I'm so curious


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## Kutusov (Apr 19, 2010)

martinzx said:


> I was under the impression Pilot was JL, making UFO's
> 
> I would consult with Chascomm & our very own Anna ( Vaurien) if you have not already done so, I have researched it in the past, but with conflicting reports
> 
> ...





Vaurien said:


> Oh, please, read what you want but then let us know... I'm so curious


My contact on WUS is Michele, also a moderator. I've also contacted Julian Kampmann which also sells these watches and knows JL personally. These two gave me the most complete infos... I'll make a separate post on these.

Good call regarding VE, probably deserves a poll regarding which section to include future incomings. I haven't made my mind yet as to get one of the new N1s but I wondered where to post it if I ever get one. I'll make another topic of this to see what members feel about it.


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## mitadoc (Sep 25, 2010)

Great watch,buddy!I got Sturmanskie for me too!I love it!


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