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Peter-H

Does a timing error depend on how wound up a watch is?

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From a purely engineering POV this must be true because I am sure there is no way to make any wholly mechanical timing mechanism completely and totally independent of the torque being applied to it. Only in electronics (my profession) can this be achieved; not completely (that is a physical impossibility) but it can be achieved to a level at which any effect is unmeasurable.

What I don't know is what range of error one should expect.

I have a Fortis 597.22.141.3 watch which runs consistently about 20-30 secs slow per day. I took it to a local watchmaker who refused to touch it, saying it is in spec (which is true) and that no Master Watchmaker (he claims to be one and charges £1500/hour) would adjust it either! However he did put it on a watch winder, so perhaps he suspected I was not winding it up hard enough. I doubt that was the case, with daily walking, swimming, etc...

I have an IWC IW378901 also (posted about it in another thread) which seems to gain perhaps 0.5 second per day when one is skiing, although I have not done the test rigorously as the error is so small anyway.

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I've never heard of accuracy being affected by how much a watch is wound. I did notice that when you wind a watch just a little bit, although it functions normally, the hairspring seems to rotate slower but not sure if this influences anything since usually wind a watch to the maximum (or almost maximum).

If your master watchmaker had a timegrapher he could simply regulate the movement just a tad. You probably wouldn't get IWC-grade quality (we are talking about a sizeable difference in quality between these two watches so it's expected) but he could have done it to +/- 10 seconds/24 hours which is better than 20-30 right ? :P

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PeterH - - when do you wind the watch in question? There used to be thoughts a (good) few years back that you should wind a watch in the morning, and set if required, so that maximum power was available to the power train in the period when it would be most used by the wearer. For most folks that would be the "normal" working day. :yes:

Of course if you're on constant night shift ? that would be reversed :whistle:

The theory was that the watch would be more accurate when one required accurate timekeeping. I hav'nae a scooby doo if it works or not, but in fact I've done it for years, mainly hrough sheer laziness!

 

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4 minutes ago, WRENCH said:

I hope that's a "typo" ? :huh:

Book a Private Quickstep lesson from me and you'll soon find out Boyo :whistle::rofl:

(us top Professionals have to stick together :yes:  - - you should see what Mach cahrges for Bed Bath)

Edited by mel

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2 hours ago, Peter-H said:

From a purely engineering POV this must be true because I am sure there is no way to make any wholly mechanical timing mechanism completely and totally independent of the torque being applied to it. Only in electronics (my profession) can this be achieved; not completely (that is a physical impossibility) but it can be achieved to a level at which any effect is unmeasurable.

What I don't know is what range of error one should expect.

I have a Fortis 597.22.141.3 watch which runs consistently about 20-30 secs slow per day. I took it to a local watchmaker who refused to touch it, saying it is in spec (which is true) and that no Master Watchmaker (he claims to be one and charges £1500/hour) would adjust it either! However he did put it on a watch winder, so perhaps he suspected I was not winding it up hard enough. I doubt that was the case, with daily walking, swimming, etc...

I have an IWC IW378901 also (posted about it in another thread) which seems to gain perhaps 0.5 second per day when one is skiing, although I have not done the test rigorously as the error is so small anyway.

I think I've commented on this old codger in your previous topic. :mad0218: He put it on a winder for you?  Wow! :clap: I'd do that for only $50/hour, tax included. If you're wearing the watch throughout the day, I can guarantee you it's been wound sufficiently ... or there's something wrong with the winding mechanism.

To your question.... I have some ETA-based watches that do indeed run a bit faster when fully wound, and I've confirmed it with a watch timing check app (not a timegrapher) in 2-3 positions (dial up, crown up, 12 up) as well as on a winder. One 2836 really loves being on the winder (only spins 20-25 times an hour, so pretty low winding cycle). 

Depending upon your movement +/- 20-30 secs a day can definitely be improved upon, you just need a different watchsmith to do it, clearly this guy is just too famous and precious to trouble with your business. 1500 quid an hour, that's just a blowhard trying to a) impress you or b) trying to get you out the door so he can return to watching cat videos on YouTube. I wouldn't trust this guy to work on my vacuum cleaner, let along my watch. 

Is this fellow in business? Can you provide his name or web site for us to review? 

I don't think this man charges  £1500/hour. 

http://www.timerestoration.co.uk/price-guide/ 

Edited by Chromejob
or there's something wrong with it

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16 minutes ago, Peter-H said:

The 1500 quid was not a typo

:jawdrop1:

26 minutes ago, mel said:

Book a Private Quickstep lesson from me and you'll soon find out Boyo

You'd need a very "quick step" to catch me. :laughing2dw:

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He told me the £1500/hr when I was there. I discussed it with him; it was no misunderstanding. There are just 2 guys there; the "old" "Master Watchmaker" and a younger guy who sees people who walk into the shop (and "sometimes" answers emails).

Of course I think £1500/hr is a joke. A day spent on a watch will exceed the price of all but the really pricey watches. I would never pay that rate unless the watch was worth 100k :)

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I wouldn't use his services - - he doesn't work on TIMEX! (wonder why not :rofl: )

PeterH, any competent watchman should be able to sort this out better and cheaper IMO (never humble), even I can usually manage to get a TIMEX without too much wear down to better than that - - and that's using commonsense and a paper and pencil. :yes:

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3 hours ago, Peter-H said:

He told me the £1500/hr when I was there.

That is hilarious, his website quotes £295 to service a chronograph, so he can do that in 12 mins...?  The man's a genius :laughing2dw:

  • Haha 1

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2 hours ago, Davey P said:

That is hilarious, his website quotes £295 to service a chronograph, so he can do that in 12 mins...?  The man's a genius :laughing2dw:

That'll be what the young fella does - - he's a commis watchie - - Speedy Watchie? :tumbleweed:

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This is very interesting as both watches have the same ETA 7750 movement inside............. obviously the IWC will be tweaked and any tiny issues ironed out, a bit of balance re-poising and a polish on the pinions no doubt

As Simon 2 said the power going to the balance may affect the amplitude but not the timing that each impulse takes as the hairspring will have been timed to the weight and moment of inertia of the balance, so these factors do not dramatically affect the timing or rate of the watch.

I would quite happily adjust your watch for half price, only £750!! :laugh:

  • Haha 1

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" the power going to the balance may affect the amplitude but not the timing that each impulse takes as the hairspring will have been timed to the weight and moment of inertia of the balance "

Sure; this is how clocks are supposed to work (I know nothing about clocks but a quick google reveals loads of interesting stuff about the history of timing mechanisms) but there will always be second third fourth etc order effects. For example the watch is full of air at roughly the ambient pressure (there will be leaks past the o-rings even on a "200m" watch) so a greater amplitude of movement will encounter more losses due to air resistance, which will affect the timing. Perhaps this is known and the mechanism is designed to more or less compensate for it, but I can't see it doing so exactly.

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How long since last serviced? Any chance of moisture having got inside the case? Are complications off for regulare use? Any chance exposure to strong magnetic field? 

To start with,  you may just have the watch demagnetized. No cost.

22sec/ day is unhealthy. 

 

 

 

 

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