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MrF-UK82

The Usual eBay Suspects??

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2 minutes ago, Perlative Cernometer said:

No, but on the other hand if you discover a fault with said boots while using them then yes, you've every right to take them back worn. Your buyer hasn't returned this watch because it didn't fit or he'd changed his mind - he's returned it because you sold him a knackered watch. Doesn't matter how shiny it looked if it fails to function at all. You've sold a watch you knew needed at least a battery with no knowledge of who might attempt the battery change or their level of skill or equipment to do so. The buyer has no way of telling the watch is faulty without opening up the case so unless it actually seems the buyer has caused the fault through their own mishandling you've got to accept that whoever opens that up might well not do so to your standards before they discover that you'd sold them a dud. And just how much does a couple of tiny scratches affect the value of what is after all a relatively cheap to start with, and now broken watch? It's like selling someone a car that needs a new tyre, then being offended they've scratched the rim changing the tyre when they come back and complain the engine's missing.Apologise to the guy and write it off for goodness sake! 

 Blimey you must be the guy I sold it too... What are the chances... :laugh: :rofl:

Oh and FYI @Perlative Cernometer I am speaking to someone on this very forum, about trying to get the watch fixed for the guy. Thank you for your heart felt response all the same bud. :thumbs_up:

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1 hour ago, Perlative Cernometer said:

No, but on the other hand if you discover a fault with said boots while using them then yes, you've every right to take them back worn. Your buyer hasn't returned this watch because it didn't fit or he'd changed his mind - he's returned it because you sold him a knackered watch. Doesn't matter how shiny it looked if it fails to function at all. You've sold a watch you knew needed at least a battery with no knowledge of who might attempt the battery change or their level of skill or equipment to do so. The buyer has no way of telling the watch is faulty without opening up the case so unless it actually seems the buyer has caused the fault through their own mishandling you've got to accept that whoever opens that up might well not do so to your standards before they discover that you'd sold them a dud. And just how much does a couple of tiny scratches affect the value of what is after all a relatively cheap to start with, and now broken watch? It's like selling someone a car that needs a new tyre, then being offended they've scratched the rim changing the tyre when they come back and complain the engine's missing.Apologise to the guy and write it off for goodness sake! 

You have completely and utterly missed the point. An item should be returned in the same condition it was sold in. In this case it hasn’t.  That’s why Mr Uk is pissed off. 

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1 hour ago, MrF-UK82 said:

 Blimey you must be the guy I sold it too... What are the chances... :laugh: :rofl:

Oh and FYI @Perlative Cernometer I am speaking to someone on this very forum, about trying to get the watch fixed for the guy. Thank you for your heart felt response all the same bud. :thumbs_up:

Sorry, just think you've had some rather unrealistic standards there - selling a non running £40 watch you're probably not selling to some white gloved enthusiast - you're selling to some average bloke who's buying a cheap watch to pop the back off himself, whack a pound shop battery in and tell the time. When it turns out to be faulty it's pretty unrealistic to expect it to come back without signs of that sort of treatment. Admittedly it's probably never been near a jeweller but that's not really the point - you're the one in the wrong, albeit unintentionally, and I think you're being a bit unfair on your buyer. He's done nothing other than being a bit careless opening the back of a watch he probably had every intention of keeping until he discovered the problem.

11 hours ago, MrF-UK82 said:

I will wait and see if he processes for a refund before I give him one though. After all he returned the watch with damage to it. I certainly won't be chucking it in the bin. 

 

11 hours ago, MrF-UK82 said:

I was MORE than happy to refund the money, but he did not return the watch in the condition I sold it in. Regardless of the fact the watch isn't working. I was going to seek advice on the forum to get it repaired and sell it on again, but not I have to try and sell it with damage on it! 

And sorry but that didn't come across as "I'm doing my best to sort it for the guy" - sorry if I misunderstood there.

6 minutes ago, IBM said:

You have completely and utterly missed the point. An item should be returned in the same condition it was sold in. In this case it hasn’t.  That’s why Mr Uk is pissed off. 

As far as I can see the only damage is where the buyer has somewhat ineptly opened the thing up to discover it's faulty. If you sell a watch in the sure knowledge that the buyer is going to have to do that before they can use it, expecting it back with no marks  where they have done exactly that is just unrealistic. And I think you are missing the point - look at it from both sides if Mr UK is upset because the watch picked up a couple of marks, how upset do you think the buyer is that the watch he just shelled out for doesn't work. I've worked in retail for a long time and yes - if you're just returning something unwanted for whatever reason then condition matters, but if what you've sold isn't right to start with then that's your problem even if the buyer has used it for some time before the problem became evident.

It's not a great situation for either side I know and I realise it's a bit annoying if you're careful with your goods and then it turns out your buyer isn't so gentle but if you leave it up to the buyer to crack it open and change the battery you're still responsible if your assumption the watch worked turns out to be wrong and I think maybe you've got into an argument there that should never really have happened I'm afraid.

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Wow, that Tissot looks sad, i repaired a quartz Omega which "Timpson" had managed to damage a few teeth whilst fitting a new battery.

Most quartz watch movements are quite cheap, its the fitting and expertise which takes the time / money

He must have bent the back of the watch trying to close the case without the correct tool. Ebay is a bit of a minefield, i would just refund it and take it on the chin, i sold a calener pocket watch once, chap returned it saying it was unwanted gift and the pocket watch had been taken apart, i battled with ebay but lost, so as previously said it either must be listed as "Good working order" or "Spares and Repairs"

Its not worth the upset, life is stressful enough!!

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@Perlative Cernometer - With all respect mate, you are chatting out of your backside. The photo i attached cannot show the exact damage. Regardless if the watch is faulty or not. Be clear when I say,  I happily told the guy I would provide a full refund because it was faulty. I held my hands up to claim full responsibility and would happily have issued a refund for the postage cost back to me as well as the watch. This being said, the watch should have been returned in exactly the same condition I sent it out. I am not a shop/ seller. I am not "working in retail". I don't provide refunds/ returns unless it is something I have not listed. Private sellers don't have to work towards these returns policies unless its something not stated in the original listing. I am just a normal guy selling off some of his old watch collection. As mentioned, I have 600+ positive reviews so I must be honest and have done something right when selling before now. 

He said he took it to a jeweller to get the battery changed - What half decent jeweller pops the back of a watch case off with a sharp, thin tool which is going to be prone to slipping and scratching the watch? Not once or twice - At least 5 or 6 minor scratches and a small indentation. So it wasn't just "a couple of marks". I have spoken to a few different watch repairers and it can be fixed, and it won't be expensive so it cements the fact he's B-S'ing even more. I will go ahead and get it fixed, which would have made the watch "like brand new" if it wasn't for this damaged he's caused now. I know it's not an expensive watch by any means. But £40-£50 watch will now be sold for £20-£30 max. I'd love to know why you think I should be left out of pocket?

He even said at first, to send the watch back so he could take it back to the jeweller to claim through them. He then went on to tell me to chuck it in the bin. The tone he used when he emailed me, suggested he was guilty and he knew he did wrong. 

Anyway thanks for your heart felt response all the same. I think we should just agree to disagree now because neither of us will win! Starting to regret even asking now... :laugh:

Edited by MrF-UK82

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1 hour ago, Lampoc said:

Probably best not to ask if you don't want to hear opinions contrary to your own!

Exactly.

 

1 hour ago, MrF-UK82 said:

@Perlative Cernometer - With all respect mate, you are chatting out of your backside. The photo i attached cannot show the exact damage. Regardless if the watch is faulty or not. Be clear when I say,  I happily told the guy I would provide a full refund because it was faulty. I held my hands up to claim full responsibility and would happily have issued a refund for the postage cost back to me as well as the watch. This being said, the watch should have been returned in exactly the same condition I sent it out. I am not a shop/ seller. I am not "working in retail". I don't provide refunds/ returns unless it is something I have not listed. Private sellers don't have to work towards these returns policies unless its something not stated in the original listing. I am just a normal guy selling off some of his old watch collection. As mentioned, I have 600+ positive reviews so I must be honest and have done something right when selling before now. 

He said he took it to a jeweller to get the battery changed - What half decent jeweller pops the back of a watch case off with a sharp, thin tool which is going to be prone to slipping and scratching the watch? Not once or twice - At least 5 or 6 minor scratches and a small indentation. So it wasn't just "a couple of marks". I have spoken to a few different watch repairers and it can be fixed, and it won't be expensive so it cements the fact he's B-S'ing even more. I will go ahead and get it fixed, which would have made the watch "like brand new" if it wasn't for this damaged he's caused now. I know it's not an expensive watch by any means. But £40-£50 watch will now be sold for £20-£30 max. I'd love to know why you think I should be left out of pocket?

He even said at first, to send the watch back so he could take it back to the jeweller to claim through them. He then went on to tell me to chuck it in the bin. The tone he used when he emailed me, suggested he was guilty and he knew he did wrong. 

Anyway thanks for your heart felt response all the same. I think we should just agree to disagree now because neither of us will win! Starting to regret even asking now... :laugh:

No - not "regardless of whether it is broken or not" - it doesn't work. That wasn't in your listing. You may not be a retailer but ebay quite rightly gives the buyer some of that protection when something goes wrong and even if done in good faith you sold this guy a dud and that's your error not his so yes - if anyone is left out of pocket it's you. Besides which I suspect you'll find that watch will probably make at least as much if not more if you sell it with those marks on but running than it did mint but a non runner. The only thing you'll be out of pocket for is fixing the fault you should have sorted before you sold it as a working watch if you'd checked it first. I think you're probably right the story about a jeweller is probably rubbish, at best he's taken it for his local bloke on the market to look at after he's bodged it open and tried a battery (or tried and failed if those marks are anything to go by), but when you sell a watch at that price that's exactly what I'd expect. Who's going to pay a jewellers rates to change a battery on a £40 watch? I can't help noticing you didn't!

 

.... you did ask..

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7 minutes ago, Perlative Cernometer said:

Who's going to pay a jewellers rates to change a battery on a £40 watch? I can't help noticing you didn't!

I didn't because the watch had the protective coating on still and I didn't want to damage the back as I don't have the tools to replace. I know very little about changing batteries or removing the backs on watches - I'd much rather pay a professional/ someone with a good knowledge to do so for me. Basically I didn't want to damage it.

It's a learning curve for me mate. I assumed (and I know you should never assume!) that a watch that was still in 'like new' condition couldn't create such electrical fault from sitting around? I am curious why watches in shops that sit around for months/years don't create these problems too? I thought a quick battery change for someone who knows something about watches would be an easy thing to do, and they would then have effectively a brand new watch. Again my mistake to assume any of this.

 

18 minutes ago, Perlative Cernometer said:

... you did ask..

I know I asked and I am very grateful for you taking the time to respond. I can appreciate where you are coming from, and what you say does make sense. It still doesn't sit right with me that he's sent it back damaged, but nonetheless I should show some level of sympathy for the "massive tool".

 

On a final note:

I honestly value everyones opinions and thanks for taking the time to reply. I guess i'm just a stubborn git and was only seeing it from my side of the argument. I am going to refund the "nice gentleman" and get it fixed for myself. :shothead:

Many thanks again :thumbs_up:

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1 minute ago, MrF-UK82 said:

I assumed (and I know you should never assume!) that a watch that was still in 'like new' condition couldn't create such electrical fault from sitting around?

From my experience, this rarely happens.  Even the cheapest quartz movement is normally very reliable and fires up straight away when a new battery is fitted, unless there is physical damage (for example, to the coils or circuit board) or a battery has leaked onto the contacts.  In all my years changing my own batteries I've never experienced a battery leak though, so I'm not sure if they have to be left inside for decades before that happens (or maybe I've just been lucky?).  I've had a few dead modules with no apparent damage though, including a couple of Seikos, so it does happen occasionally.  I am happy to take a chance and buy watches needing a battery change, and have done so on many occasions.  In fact, I've just won a joblot on ebay needing new batteries, it's all part of the fun for me.  However, I would NEVER sell a watch that wasn't working, and this thread reminds me why.

I hope you get things sorted in the end anyway mate :thumbsup:

 

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3 minutes ago, Davey P said:

I hope you get things sorted in the end anyway mate :thumbsup:

Thanks mate - Took your recommendation and sending it to @simon2 to have a look at for me.

Also biting the bullet and refunding the buyer on eBay. Not because I am completely happy with the situation, but because I actually have a conscience and its the right thing to do. :thumbsup:

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22 minutes ago, MrF-UK82 said:

I didn't because the watch had the protective coating on still and I didn't want to damage the back as I don't have the tools to replace. I know very little about changing batteries or removing the backs on watches - I'd much rather pay a professional/ someone with a good knowledge to do so for me. Basically I didn't want to damage it.

Exactly - but at that price you're selling to someone less fussy who's going to want to get it running on the cheap.

22 minutes ago, MrF-UK82 said:

It's a learning curve for me mate. I assumed (and I know you should never assume!) that a watch that was still in 'like new' condition couldn't create such electrical fault from sitting around? I am curious why watches in shops that sit around for months/years don't create these problems too? I thought a quick battery change for someone who knows something about watches would be an easy thing to do, and they would then have effectively a brand new watch. Again my mistake to assume any of this.

NOS in shops a few of them probably will throw up problems like this - they just don't get sold or if they do, then show up a fault the shop sorts it out or refunds. Quick battery change is a quick and easy job if you know what you're doing and have the tools, but you tend to get to know what you're doing and what tools you need through experience opening up cheap watches you just bought off ebay..... First few I cracked open probably looked like yours does now (remember putting the back back onto an old Lorus with the vice in the garage when I discovered it was a particularly tight fit) but I've got better at it and acquired stuff that will do the job. Chap who bought your watch probably thinks that sort of scratching where you take the back off is perfectly normal. Your mistake isn't really any of the assumptions you made on the listing, it's just you have to realise if you're selling a non runner like that you're taking a chance on it and this time it didn't pay off - but that's not your buyers fault.

22 minutes ago, MrF-UK82 said:

It still doesn't sit right with me that he's sent it back damaged, but nonetheless I should show some level of sympathy for the "massive tool".

Not the "massive tool" that was the problem - it was the unsuitable sharp scratchy one:wink:

Edited by Perlative Cernometer
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I am with Lampoc on this. Look at it from the buyer’s POV. Assuming he is being truthful, you have sold him faulty goods. It was necessary to take the back off to replace the battery, perhaps he tried it himself and was clumsy or perhaps he went to a Timpsons butcher butcher but either way these things happen. Pay the refund and take it on the chin. If it’s knackered anyway, a few scratches don’t reallly matter. 

Edited by Padders
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no matter what, buyer always right on ebay even if they are wrong. on my years of experienced on ebay from every 10 sell there is always "THAT" kind of buyer.

in your case buyer is right. item was faulty. good luck on your future sell

 

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There's no clear cut right and wrong here. I would not respond to an ad which said ''requires new battery'' unless I was prepared to change the movement as well. By saying the battery is dead a seller is saying it's not running and I can't test it.

Likewise I would not advertise a watch with a dead battery. Admittedly in this case the seller has tried to do the honourable thing but for the sake of a new battery it's all gone t*ts up.

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1 hour ago, JonnyOldBoy said:

If a seller follows the rules and avoids grey areas then decisions are usually fair. If the buyer "was always right" then eBay would have already died due to mass fraud.... 

You don’t actually believe that do you?? That’s genuinely one of the most uneducated statements i have ever read on the internet.

Buyer not happy. Opens case. Sends item back. Gets refund. Done.      

 

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@JonnyOldBoy to be honest if you are not business seller you have like no right at all. just 2 years ago i sold an iphone

on ebay then buyer ask for return, he then sent me a old phone instead of my iphone and guest what, ebay refunded him and i could do nothing

about it. from then i only sell to peoples with 100+ feedback and with no case against then. and for expensive one i only use collection.

had no problem after this.

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Sometimes, I look for these bargains. The last watch I bought stated clearly that the hour hand was loose and that it needed a new battery, and was therefore sold as not working/for spares or repairs. It was an extremely rare watch, so I took a chance. I knew all the risks before hand...if it genuinely was a dud, then I had no-one to blame but myself. Thankfully, the hour hand just needed pressing back on, and the battery change was just run of the mill. So in this instance, I was the winner, but I appreciate it can all go pear shaped sometimes. To the uninitiated, a battery change may be beyond their skills, but if you know what you're doing, you may pick up a bargain.

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Pop off back watches, ....what a pants idea that was,

...I would say even the best and experienced take a gamble of causing the slightest of marks every time one is opened and closed,

I try to avoid :yes:

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11 hours ago, IBM said:

You don’t actually believe that do you?? That’s genuinely one of the most uneducated statements i have ever read on the internet.

Buyer not happy. Opens case. Sends item back. Gets refund. Done.      

 

I have to agree with @JonnyOldBoy on this. If ebay just supported buyers with no checks then the whole thing could collapse as fraud would increase to silly levels.

ebay suggests stating your returns policy and has a facility to help you do so, even if it `returns not accepted'. They also make it clear that you have to accept returns for faulty items  or not as described. They also monitor refund requests and can and will block accounts where a buyer is considered to be abusing this.

A buyer may get away with claiming something was not working or as described and return the item for a refund - annoying but the item could be relisted. They may also get away with returning a cheap item in place of the one received but they will not get away with it very often.

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Fraud HAS increased to silly levels!  Have you seen the number of scams on eBay these days? Why do you think that is....because there's a huge loop hole and very easy to manipulate the system.  

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I have not used e-bay in years. I get a feeling over me ever time i go onto the site, it's just full of chancers and fraudsters. Absolute tat with a markup for the use of their site. If you have the patience and will power there will be the odd gem for a good price but the site cannot be trusted now. 

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1 hour ago, IBM said:

 Have you seen the number of scams on eBay these days?

Hope you take the trouble to report them.

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I had something similar happened to me on Friday. I sold a watch on EBay and the seller contacted me saying the bracelet is broken. The watch was mint condition and I can only assume they messed up while sizing the bracelet. I’m still awaiting photos of the damage as it appears the buyer bought the watch for his dad... but I have got the feeling I’ll eventually have to refund the buyer and take it on the chin I am afraid...

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