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Parnis


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46 minutes ago, JonnyOldBoy said:

 

I see why they sell in the same way I see why QVC sell stuff. It all about perceived value.

 

 

Apologies, I was being obtuse. I am fully aware that many of our esteemed members have Parnis in there collection, and I have no problem with that. There is a multitude of sub £100 mechanical watches out there that are good, but sell quietly. 

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57 minutes ago, WRENCH said:

Apologies, I was being obtuse. I am fully aware that many of our esteemed members have Parnis in there collection, and I have no problem with that. There is a multitude of sub £100 mechanical watches out there that are good, but sell quietly. 

I love the obtuseness of the Scots.... I was at Dumfries House on Sunday evening for a private charity function with Wifey and one of the minions declared his love of the carriage clocks at the residence .... whilst claiming he had to train as a carriage driver first .... [ I stupidly asked ; "really?" ]

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2 hours ago, JonnyOldBoy said:

Any yes its a genuine reject sapphire hence why it's in a watch that cost $10 to manufacture.

If Seiko's production QC stats are industry standard then 80% of all Sapphires in the Lower Asian markets are rejects.

However, given that the QC of some other watch manufacturers is probably higher, I would say its likely to be around 90%.

Accelerated synthetic process Sapphire is extremely difficult to produce without aspherical aberrations and density irregularities.  

Have you any idea regarding the science behind this !?

I see why they sell in the same way I see why QVC sell stuff. It all about perceived value.

 

 

Honestly Jonny, I haven't read so much bo110cks in my life. Reject sapphire, so the reject sapphire you refer to can not be seen through in order to read the time (aspherical aberrations, what?). All the reject sapphire comes from Japan who produce about 10% as many watches as China. Yes, if carefully examined through a microscope the sapphire crystal in a Parnis will be inferior to a watch costing 100 times as much, but who examines watches through a microscope unless they are really really sad?  Without very careful examination, the window in my nice shiny Parnis Daytona looks just as good as  a Rolex. 

I accept your expertise in regards to detail, but you don't appear to take into consideration value for money. People who buy Parnis watches (such as me) are not comparing them with watches that cost £20k, and we take pleasure from the fact they look similar to very expensive timepieces  that in reality do the same job. Asking anyone not to buy a high spec'd Parnis in order they by a cheap looking Sekonda for the same price is a little naive. 

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7 hours ago, JonnyOldBoy said:

You have not the first clue about how that crystal is synthesised have you ?

No, but I don't really care. Its sapphire, it doesn't scratch, and I can see through it to tell the time.

On another note, you tell me that Parnis watches only cost a few dollars to produce. With exception to one of mine, they either have auto Miyota or NH35 movements, or a Seiko mecca quartz. Please explain how they can therefore produce such watches ar $2 when the movements clearly cost more than that. A watch is like any other product, a sum of its parts. 

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4 hours ago, Mrs Wiggles said:

No, but I don't really care.

You should care.

4 hours ago, Mrs Wiggles said:

Please explain how they can therefore produce such watches ar $2 when the movements clearly cost more than that. 

Movements are QC graded at several stages. This produces varying movements of the same manufacturing spec at different price points. Usually the grading can be spotted with a coloured dot , purple, red, blue etc etc occasionally they clip the movement.

What you are missing here is that QC passed 1st grade movements used in established brands are more expensive BECAUSE a success rate % of QC has already been factored in. So to a certain extent, the established brands sort of subsidise the rejected movements that get wholesaled out and sell them at cost or lower 

Assuming of course that they are QC graded genuine movements and not clones. Clones are dirt cheap.

The watch cases are usually made from general market recycled slab steel from the over-stock markets. This is because foundry capacity for virgin steel in that part of the world is currently heavily restricted for various reasons. This steel is cheap beyond reasoning because its essentially "take what you can get" purchasing from a J.I.T. type commodities market , not a futures market ( as with Virgin Steel ).

Hence mass volume manufacturing of parts-bin type watch designs can be achieved at incredibly low prices. But it is what it is. 

If you over assume on the quality with these , you may find out months up the line that your watch was "All fur coat, and no knickers" as they say in some circles....

 

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56 minutes ago, JonnyOldBoy said:

You should care.

Movements are QC graded at several stages. This produces varying movements of the same manufacturing spec at different price points. Usually the grading can be spotted with a coloured dot , purple, red, blue etc etc occasionally they clip the movement.

What you are missing here is that QC passed 1st grade movements used in established brands are more expensive BECAUSE a success rate % of QC has already been factored in. So to a certain extent, the established brands sort of subsidise the rejected movements that get wholesaled out and sell them at cost or lower 

Assuming of course that they are QC graded genuine movements and not clones. Clones are dirt cheap.

The watch cases are usually made from general market recycled slab steel from the over-stock markets. This is because foundry capacity for virgin steel in that part of the world is currently heavily restricted for various reasons. This steel is cheap beyond reasoning because its essentially "take what you can get" purchasing from a J.I.T. type commodities market , not a futures market ( as with Virgin Steel ).

Hence mass volume manufacturing of parts-bin type watch designs can be achieved at incredibly low prices. But it is what it is. 

If you over assume on the quality with these , you may find out months up the line that your watch was "All fur coat, and no knickers" as they say in some circles....

 

But I don't see why any of this matters. All my Miyota and NH35 movements are reliable and accurate. In fact the only inaccurate mechanical watch I have is a Seiko SKX, which sort of dispels what you are saying. The cases on my Parnis watches look fantastic and are well finished. Of course, it's possible the stainless steel isn't as good as some other watches, but it looks good and it doesn't rust, so I am not sure what more I can ask for.  Jonny, I can't help feeling you are a little to obsessed with the detail, and this in turn is preventing you from enjoying watches for what they are. Ultimately a watch needs to look good and be reliable, nothing else really matters much !

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13 minutes ago, Mrs Wiggles said:

But I don't see why any of this matters. 

Because it reinforces actual value as opposed to perceived value.

You can happily buy your watches and assume/expect whatever you like whilst ignoring the material facts of production etc etc.

Personally I am not in that watch buying subset. Be it a £100 watch or a £3000 watch. 

The only reason I am in this discussion is because you think those watches are "fantastic value" compared to other mainstream brands, and I don't. I think they are about right value wise for a disposal watch and certainly given the production parameters against the final price paid, possible poor value in some instances.

 

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37 minutes ago, JonnyOldBoy said:

I think they are about right value wise for a disposal watch and certainly given the production parameters against the final price paid, possible poor value in some instances.

Exactly. I like my cheap and cheerful Shanghai watches, because that's exactly what they are. I buy them knowing full well that when they stop working, then it's of to the landfill.

£30 auto, accurate, debatable quality.

large.15682930184037372835511604739940.jpg.621dd233017f804befc506a96c841630.jpg

and not trying to be something else.

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47 minutes ago, JonnyOldBoy said:

Because it reinforces actual value as opposed to perceived value.

You can happily buy your watches and assume/expect whatever you like whilst ignoring the material facts of production etc etc.

Personally I am not in that watch buying subset. Be it a £100 watch or a £3000 watch. 

The only reason I am in this discussion is because you think those watches are "fantastic value" compared to other mainstream brands, and I don't. I think they are about right value wise for a disposal watch and certainly given the production parameters against the final price paid, possible poor value in some instances.

 

I have asked you to do this for me once before, but you failed to do so. Find me a new watch that has a sapphire crystal, 316L stainless case, well made strap/bracelet and a Japanese automatic movement for less than  £100, that isn't a Parnis or Parnis sub brand. 

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4 minutes ago, WRENCH said:

Exactly. I like my cheap and cheerful Shanghai watches, because that's exactly what they are. I buy them knowing full well that when they stop working, then it's of to the landfill.

£30 auto, accurate, debatable quality.

 

and not trying to be something else.

And to be honest, I think this can be the more "interesting" end of the watch collecting spectrum. And the lower price points, there is more variance and frankly more to debate and discuss. 

I enjoy seeing most watches on here and learning about their breeding/quality/value etc etc

Just now, Mrs Wiggles said:

 Find me a new watch that has a sapphire crystal, 316L stainless case, well made strap/bracelet and a Japanese automatic movement for less than  £100, that isn't a Parnis or Parnis sub brand. 

You just keep ignoring the sliding scale of quality that exists in the real world.

You keep banging on about 316L like it's some sort of quality statement. It is not.

316L is just a formula. And the ingredients for that formula can be superb-to-sh1te on a sliding scale.

A lot of non-Japanese 316L from the asian markets is low grade "dirty steel" , often recycled , often made from sheet deliveries with forged spec certifications and in some instances , lacks ANY Molybdenum at all !?

Many Asian watch cases are Machined, not cast , so one obvious deduction there is that that's an awful lot of gash steel that ends up guess where ? Yep re-melted and formed to be recycled yet again ..... and again .... and again .....

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Mrs Wiggles said:

I have asked you to do this for me once before, but you failed to do so. Find me a new watch that has a sapphire crystal, 316L stainless case, well made strap/bracelet and a Japanese automatic movement for less than  £100, that isn't a Parnis or Parnis sub brand. 

At the time you asked this before I posted a link to an Invicta that answered your question. I honestly cannot be bothered, but if you go and have a rake through the myriad of Corguet "homage" offerings you'll find some as well. Alpha also have offerings in the sub £100 price range with Miyota guts in them.

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11 minutes ago, JonnyOldBoy said:

And to be honest, I think this can be the more "interesting" end of the watch collecting spectrum. And the lower price points, there is more variance and frankly more to debate and discuss. 

I enjoy seeing most watches on here and learning about their breeding/quality/value etc etc

You just keep ignoring the sliding scale of quality that exists in the real world.

You keep banging on about 316L like it's some sort of quality statement. It is not.

316L is just a formula. And the ingredients for that formula can be superb-to-sh1te on a sliding scale.

A lot of non-Japanese 316L from the asian markets is low grade "dirty steel" , often recycled , often made from sheet deliveries with forged spec certifications and in some instances , lacks ANY Molybdenum at all !?

Many Asian watch cases are Machined, not cast , so one obvious deduction there is that that's an awful lot of gash steel that ends up guess where ? Yep re-melted and formed to be recycled yet again ..... and again .... and again .....

 

 

But if it looks nice and doesn't rust, like none of mine ever have, why exactly does it matter ?

 

PS, recycling is good for the planet

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28 minutes ago, Mrs Wiggles said:

But if it looks nice and doesn't rust, like none of mine ever have, why exactly does it matter ?

 

PS, recycling is good for the planet

It may look nice and won't rust in the short term. But that's not the whole story with metal alloys. There is a degree of integrity to the steel in many aspects, again on a sliding scale. 

And recycling steel is that way is NOT good for the planet in any way, shape or form if it's done as a consequence of machining rather than casting. It's a massively inefficient way to produce watches but is done that way because as I mentioned before , they can not get their hands on virgin alloys sheets and also have not usually got the machinery required to cast the cases. The gross inefficiencies are compensated by the off peak cheap power offered by China's dirty power stations ( terrible for the planet ). However, they seem to realise that they are poisoning their populations and have started to take steps to address pollution ( steel output is one thing that has been hit already as I mentioned before ) but steel recycling will also possibly follow as a squeezed industry. The jungle drums I am hearing from my buddies in the square mile is that certain areas of the Asian manufacturing economy are about to change hugely due to various restrictions and fresh regulation. How that will effect mass produced watches I have no idea .... but I would assume there may be some consequences somewhere down the line , possibly ( ironically ) leading to higher quality ( and prices ) in the pond you fish in.

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i find that seiko must have used superb stainless in the 70s as even an abused case is never pitted even on the back dinged and scratched yes, but theres never any corrosion in the case, which is not something i can say for some of the 60s swiss watches ive had, which have been pitted especially an FL, and a few much lesser known brands that died in the quartz revolution...maybe its the colder European climate? As most of my vintage seikos have been Japan domestic.

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1 hour ago, WRENCH said:

At the time you asked this before I posted a link to an Invicta that answered your question. I honestly cannot be bothered, but if you go and have a rake through the myriad of Corguet "homage" offerings you'll find some as well. Alpha also have offerings in the sub £100 price range with Miyota guts in them.

Wouldn't all the same criticisms being leveled at Parnis also apply to Invicta, Alpha etc?

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55 minutes ago, spinynorman said:

Wouldn't all the same criticisms being leveled at Parnis also apply to Invicta, Alpha etc?

ive never had invicta ive had alpha and parnis and found parnis to be better, i don't really know why they get such a hard time when we quiet happily accept copying by rotary etc. Maybe its just Parnis get too close?

 

Image result for rotary homage

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1 hour ago, Nigelp said:

i find that seiko must have used superb stainless in the 70s as even an abused case is never pitted even on the back dinged and scratched yes, but theres never any corrosion in the case, which is not something i can say for some of the 60s swiss watches ive had, which have been pitted especially an FL, and a few much lesser known brands that died in the quartz revolution...maybe its the colder European climate? As most of my vintage seikos have been Japan domestic.

Japanese steel has always had a reputation for supreme quality in comparison to others historically.... I am sure that these days the playing field in the G7 Markets is pretty level but certainly historically I would not be surprised to see Antique Japanese pieces fair well.

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2 minutes ago, JonnyOldBoy said:

Invicta have to adhere to regulations that Parnis/Alpha etc etc do not. All their materials used would be properly audited.

i suppose that would apply to rotary etc too then. It seems that parnis and alpha are regarded by many as too closely connected with the fake industry. Which would make sense as they are the only ones who do more or less exact copies with sterile dials which are reasonable quality arent they? Do you remember the big Marine Militaire bust up? 

Image result for parnis marina militare

a bit close for comfort that isnt it. 

Image result for panerai militare

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3 minutes ago, Nigelp said:

i suppose that would apply to rotary etc too then. It seems that parnis and alpha are regarded by many as too closely connected with the fake industry.

 

Although that is true I guess .. with me I have nothing against the Asian brands on that score. Basically because Global IP rights are completely ignored and the governments have actively encouraged Piracy and it is what it is. I would never buy a fake , and I don't like homages anyway so they would never be on my radar. For me, if they were not almost-fakes and look-a-likes and were unique and to my style, I would still avoid knowing what I have gleaned over the years from people-in-the-know about production materials. I just see it as "taking a punt" quality wise, which is something I personally do not do. Each to their own through ... 

12 minutes ago, Nigelp said:

 

Image result for parnis marina militare

a bit close for comfort that isnt it. 

 

Also that particular model is notorious for some having a poor quality Seagull Clone movement. The crown stem has been known to snap clean away.... A new "seagull" movement is about the price of a replacement watch.... Hmmmmmmmm.....

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3 minutes ago, JonnyOldBoy said:

Although that is true I guess .. with me I have nothing against the Asian brands on that score. Basically because Global IP rights are completely ignored and the governments have actively encouraged Piracy and it is what it is. I would never buy a fake , and I don't like homages anyway so they would never be on my radar. For me, if they were not almost-fakes and look-a-likes and were unique and to my style, I would still avoid knowing what I have gleaned over the years from people-in-the-know about production materials. I just see it as "taking a punt" quality wise, which is something I personally do not do. Each to their own through ... 

ive had a few homages over the years, Alpha PO, Parnis Portuguese and a Parnis LV and blnr. I had an Alpha pn daytona too. I even bought one of the MM's off an ebay seller. The only one that was slightly interesting was the pn daytona with the manual wind chronograph and acrylic crystal...i mean when am i likely to buy a real pn daytona of the 6241, like never lol...nevertheless like you im not keen on look a likes and prefer vintage watches anyway. So i soon got bored of them and wouldnt buy one again. I mean they are not even that cheap. The pn daytona homage off alpha was 150 quid and you can get some superb vintage watches for that...even omega and longines not to mention zenith and seiko. No i think it depends what people are into. 

 

1 minute ago, WRENCH said:

And Zeno, Steinhart, "Sm!ths" etc etc.

I'll get my helmet.

What's the difference between a borderline "Chinese" homage, and a European one ? 

none i dont think a copies a copy isnt it? 

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