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Sands

Old pocket watch identification.

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Hi all,

I have stumbled upon the forum while researching some watches I have inherited a while ago.

I’m just looking for some information regarding the manufacturer, date etc or any history.

I have researched some and have added information but if anything is wrong I would appreciate it if you could point me in the right direction.

Silver pocket watch:

095b941b-3645-41eb-93d1-3c16f44f4b0e-ori
ec010c6d-25b4-4b16-a03e-eb184b2a55f1-ori
dba43c89-fd19-4eb1-b5dc-bc45f6003895-ori
89b33d21-b0fa-4399-b02d-8971284979fd-ori
a969cd1c-fe45-4111-9f9a-c211d3b34b5c-ori

Rear inside.

letter s at top

walking lion=silver?

Anchor=Birmingham?

letter b font seems to be 1894

number 68 below the W.G.H.

Front of crown:

walking lion= silver letter b sideways 1894

Rear of crown:

initials G.H.

I don’t know how to open the rear where the winder is to see the mechanism so can really show it. Does anyone know how to open it please?

 

Second pocket watch:

8313aedf-dfe9-43ee-ae36-a3bc2b47e205-ori
c87aa747-8488-4c34-961c-fa16f408eef8-ori
725c73df-d9b6-47ae-87b0-854c7dc2217f-ori
99ea6ea5-2532-4bd2-90ad-ef046b685ac7-ori
5884fa0a-6559-406d-87b0-d86e267de502-ori
f9782d7e-1d1d-4373-8166-7b24a5e70381-ori
ddef9596-cd7f-4dad-8d64-f8c99c36a268-ori
42217742-42ac-4d50-a152-307870ff9fe1-ori
90caa589-0b61-4423-8bbf-4bce5149dd8c-ori
41451b63-b72f-472b-84b5-b401e6298d16-ori

Illinois watch case co Elgin USA gold plated?

this case guaranteed to wear 10 years

serial 2884449

movement 17 jewels 4 adjustments with arrow pointing up inside a circle.

swiss made serial 974834 no visible manufacturer name on movement so fining it hard to research.

 

Both watches work and keep excellent time.

 

 

Any info would be appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

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With regard to the first watch.  The initials WGH is the casemaker's mark of William George Hammon of Coventry.  A casemaker in the 1890's.

The  movement I think is also English, and I can see that the front cover of the case is hinged from the side which would indicate that the movement is hinged at the 12 o'clock position and accessed from the front, not the rear.  If I am correct then the procedure is as follows:-

On opening the front cover you should see a tiny latch on the edge of the movement at the 6 o'clock position.  In the edge of the latch there is usually a tiny groove just big enough to fit the edge of a finger nail.  With your finger nail, press the latch towards the number 6.  This releases the latch from the edge of the case and the whole movement and dial can be swung upwards ninety degrees to give you full access to the movement. A WORD OF WARNING!  Be very careful that your finger nail does not slip from the latch and damage the second hand.  

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I suspect this will have a lever fusee movement , chain wound round a cone shaped pulley ?

Also, if you can raise the movement as described above ^^^^^ , in all probability there will be a dust cover secured over the movement ?

If this happens to be the case post a picture & we will be able to advise on the removal of dust cover.

As previously stated, tread with care, I see so many damaged hands, chipped dials (ceramic), due to lack of knowledge.

 

Good luck.

:thumbsup:

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1 hour ago, Melville said:

With regard to the first watch.  The initials WGH is the casemaker's mark of William George Hammon of Coventry.  A casemaker in the 1890's.

The  movement I think is also English, and I can see that the front cover of the case is hinged from the side which would indicate that the movement is hinged at the 12 o'clock position and accessed from the front, not the rear.  If I am correct then the procedure is as follows:-

On opening the front cover you should see a tiny latch on the edge of the movement at the 6 o'clock position.  In the edge of the latch there is usually a tiny groove just big enough to fit the edge of a finger nail.  With your finger nail, press the latch towards the number 6.  This releases the latch from the edge of the case and the whole movement and dial can be swung upwards ninety degrees to give you full access to the movement. A WORD OF WARNING!  Be very careful that your finger nail does not slip from the latch and damage the second hand.  

Thanks for the excellent description I have managed to do it without damaging it.

https://beta.photobucket.com/u/Sands0777/p/49a27ab6-5bc9-45b7-898d-f3c329b48cc2
https://beta.photobucket.com/u/Sands0777/p/44a3021b-ffda-477b-a55a-fb6b506d95b9

52 minutes ago, Karrusel said:

 

I suspect this will have a lever fusee movement , chain wound round a cone shaped pulley ?

Also, if you can raise the movement as described above ^^^^^ , in all probability there will be a dust cover secured over the movement ?

If this happens to be the case post a picture & we will be able to advise on the removal of dust cover.

As previously stated, tread with care, I see so many damaged hands, chipped dials (ceramic), due to lack of knowledge.

 

Good luck.

:thumbsup:

Thanks for the reply I have removed the dust cover and taken some pics.

 

https://beta.photobucket.com/u/Sands0777/p/49a27ab6-5bc9-45b7-898d-f3c329b48cc2
https://beta.photobucket.com/u/Sands0777/p/44a3021b-ffda-477b-a55a-fb6b506d95b9

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Well done!

Now that you have lifted the movement, can you get some detailed images of the marks inside the inner case back.  This may give some indication of the movement maker ?

Also, can you supply an image, taken side on, of the movement?  This should expose the inner workings, & what I suspect is a chain (fusee) driven movement?

Remember, if you ever have to wind a ‘fusee’ movement with a key “only wind anti clockwise!”

 

Finally, please don’t place the open watch head face down :nono: stand the open watch on it’s side. :biggrin:

 

:thumbsup:

 

 

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Thanks!

It appears to be, the less sophisticated (not a Fusee),  ‘going barrel’ movement, which winds the conventional way.

1000’s of these movements were imported into the UK, the American mechanised production methods made them cheaper to produce.  London, Coventry, Prescott, would then simply case them up using local case makers.

However, these movements were produced in the UK.

 

Lets see some images of marks/stamps inside the inner case back, which may narrow the search down ?

:thumbsup:

 

 

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4 hours ago, Karrusel said:

 

 

Lets see some images of marks/stamps inside the inner case back, which may narrow the search down ?

:thumbsup:

 

 

0A8E13FC-B983-4EA0-A30E-E1D370752AB8

The stamps are the same as the rear of the watch casing. 

Could anybody point me in the right direction to date the case? I’ve searched Birmingham hallmarks and think it’s 1799 but can’t seem to match the shield shape around the “b” if that makes sense?

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The cartouche is a mystery too me.

If William George Hammon of Coventry is the case maker, he is only registered as trading between 1884 - 1898.

IMO, not a movement produced in 1799.

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That Birmingham hall mark letter often causes confusion,  It is not a 'b'.   It is the letter 'v' for 1895.

 

 

This is an English movement.  Certainly not American.

The biggest exporter of pocket watch movements from America to the UK was by far, the Waltham Watch Company who began exporting in 1875.  Their movements were cased by the newly formed Dennison Watch Case Company in Birmingham.   A.L.. Dennison was a founder member of Waltham.

The movement shown by 'Sands' differs greatly from an American movement,

On an American movement the plates are secured by screws not pins.large.DSCF0071.JPG.5cb3b506da87ac40b9eb7b7f2fdfbec9.JPG

Key wound movements were wound through the barrel bridge.

American movements did not have the type of dust cover used by the English makers.  They preferred an inner rear cover that was part of the case through which the movement was wound, but could also be opened to gain access to the movement.

The movement was secured to the case by case screws as opposed to hinge and latch.

This is an American movement (Waltham) of a slightly earlier period than the one shown by Sands that shows the differences.

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Thanks for the replies. 1895 seems right from what you are saying. Looking at some of the hallmark guides it does look similar to a V.

Its nice to get an idea of the age of the watches.

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