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Bremont - could this be their new movement?


Caller.
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2 hours ago, Caller. said:

I am always surprised that people mainly consider the cost of the movement, when assessing the cost / value of a watch. Whether it be Bremont, Schofield or whoever. What about the rest of it? If a watch consisted of a generic bought in case, hands and all the rest of it, so be it. But when there are unique design features involved throughout, such as a bespoke case, shock proof systems and so on, artistic unique case backs, then the cost will increase. And that's what you get with both Bremont and Schofield. The value / cost of the watch is the totality of what you are buying, not just the movement.

I agree. Which is why I’m perfectly fine with ETA movements or such like in certain models. 
 

take the Breitling Superocean 57 for example. Using an ETA movement meant that the watch could be thinner, and more money could be spent on finishing the case, strap etc so the ‘package’ as a whole makes perfect sense! 
 

put that same ETA movement in a Rolex for twice the cost, and it doesn’t make sense. There comes a price point where an in in house (or heavily modified ETA/ Valjoux movement) means that slapping a base movement into a flashy case just doesn’t cut it. 
 

i think there’s also a point at which, to gain respect as a brand within the watch world, you have to stop relying on base movements. The B01 from Breitling or Oris 400 has increased their standing in my eyes, because they are prepared to put in the time and effort to actually ‘make watches’ rather than relying on others to do it. 

Turn it into the car world, and it makes perfect sense for Lotus to use the lightweight Toyota engines….it means more time and effort can be spent in refining the entire package, producing an amazing car…..but you wouldn’t get away with that philosophy in a Ferrari 

Those who spend the extra money on a car of that stature expect everything to be a Ferrari….not a Ferrari chassis with a Prius engine 

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56 minutes ago, WickerBill said:

I agree. Which is why I’m perfectly fine with ETA movements or such like in certain models. 
 

take the Breitling Superocean 57 for example. Using an ETA movement meant that the watch could be thinner, and more money could be spent on finishing the case, strap etc so the ‘package’ as a whole makes perfect sense! 
 

put that same ETA movement in a Rolex for twice the cost, and it doesn’t make sense. There comes a price point where an in in house (or heavily modified ETA/ Valjoux movement) means that slapping a base movement into a flashy case just doesn’t cut it. 
 

i think there’s also a point at which, to gain respect as a brand within the watch world, you have to stop relying on base movements. The B01 from Breitling or Oris 400 has increased their standing in my eyes, because they are prepared to put in the time and effort to actually ‘make watches’ rather than relying on others to do it. 

Turn it into the car world, and it makes perfect sense for Lotus to use the lightweight Toyota engines….it means more time and effort can be spent in refining the entire package, producing an amazing car…..but you wouldn’t get away with that philosophy in a Ferrari 

Those who spend the extra money on a car of that stature expect everything to be a Ferrari….not a Ferrari chassis with a Prius engine 

Sounds about right. An ETA or Sellita would last, if looked after, the rest of a persons life I think. Buying a Roger Smith or GF would likely last your children's life. Perhaps Bremont aspire to make their watches last into the next generation.

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On 13/10/2021 at 18:22, WickerBill said:

I agree. Which is why I’m perfectly fine with ETA movements or such like in certain models. 
 

take the Breitling Superocean 57 for example. Using an ETA movement meant that the watch could be thinner, and more money could be spent on finishing the case, strap etc so the ‘package’ as a whole makes perfect sense! 
 

put that same ETA movement in a Rolex for twice the cost, and it doesn’t make sense. There comes a price point where an in in house (or heavily modified ETA/ Valjoux movement) means that slapping a base movement into a flashy case just doesn’t cut it. 
 

i think there’s also a point at which, to gain respect as a brand within the watch world, you have to stop relying on base movements. The B01 from Breitling or Oris 400 has increased their standing in my eyes, because they are prepared to put in the time and effort to actually ‘make watches’ rather than relying on others to do it. 

Turn it into the car world, and it makes perfect sense for Lotus to use the lightweight Toyota engines….it means more time and effort can be spent in refining the entire package, producing an amazing car…..but you wouldn’t get away with that philosophy in a Ferrari 

Those who spend the extra money on a car of that stature expect everything to be a Ferrari….not a Ferrari chassis with a Prius engine 

I am interested to know how you feel about Boctok and SeaGull

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Very interesting article, and it was nice to get a view at the larger picture of what has been going on at Bremont. It just goes to show how difficult it is to develop and manufacture an 'in-house' movement, and how little that phrase means these days in this very global world we live in. Things are so much more an effort of a group of people or companies rather than the sole endeavour of one, especially if your goal is to produce large numbers or parts.

I like the fact they have reduced the types of screws used to just three, that's a big deal, and will make a difference to them being able to keep costs for the movement down, and also keep things just a little simpler.

I'm sure as they move forward they will begin to make more and more of the movement here in the UK.

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14 minutes ago, WRENCH said:

Do you think that will show in the retail price, or will it show in the margin ?

Well, that's an interesting question. Are we to assume that prices for watches that house this new movement will rise? All the investment that Bremont are making has to be paid for somehow. Margin, or profit, are we saying? That may need to be higher, especially as they progress towards a more complete manufacture of the movement parts.

Some of the machine tools they are buying are very expensive. Money has to come from somewhere.

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1 hour ago, Tazmo61 said:

The first watch to use the new ENG300 movement . The new limited edition Bremont Longitude .

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-limited-edition-bremont-longitude?_wv=1&utm_source=watchville&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=watchville

bremont-intro.jpg

bremont-back.jpg

It's actually not a bad looking watch.

Is it true that they only make Chronometers?

And what is the difference between a Chronometer and a Chronograph?

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Chronograph measures a time period and records the result, basically a stop watch.

Chronometer is watch that has been specially adjusted to be very accurate, and tested at different temperatures and in different positions some are certified.

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1 minute ago, Duncan U. said:

Chronograph measures a time period and records the result, basically a stop watch.

Chronometer is watch that has been specially adjusted to be very accurate, and tested at different temperatures and in different positions some are certified.

And whenever you see the term "Chrono" it is generally referring to the former (stop watch function watches with additional dials).

Chronometer tends to be written in full when referred to.

I appreciate this will be news to very few on here, but thought I'd add it as it did confuse me for some time.

 

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On the subject of "in house" movements, my Audemars Piguet has a JLC ébauche topped with a Dubois-Dépraz chrono module. It is coming up to thirty years old, but things don't change much; I believe the Royal Oak Offshore of today features exactly the same clockwork.

For me, the point about "in house" is variety. I will buy only display case backs because I like the manufacturer to show me his art. A solid case back might just as well hide a quartz motor. And there are only so many bog standard 2824s one can stomach.

Ergo, I tend to choose in-house (or substantially in-house  --  looking at you Herr Dornblüth and Herr Benzinger) options  --  which now feature in thirteen of my seventeen pieces.

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8 hours ago, Bricey said:

As power reserve indicators go, that's pretty cool.

 

This one is ice cold. :yes:

large.MG-Moods-13112020-213.jpg.5e9167dd40b1bba6f1e2cf9db38568e4.jpg

 

 

 

19 hours ago, Monaque said:

Well, that's an interesting question. Are we to assume that prices for watches that house this new movement will rise? All the investment that Bremont are making has to be paid for somehow. Margin, or profit, are we saying? That may need to be higher, especially as they progress towards a more complete manufacture of the movement parts.

Some of the machine tools they are buying are very expensive. Money has to come from somewhere.

The price will be relative to the economy of scale, bragging rights, and what the market will stand, the latter being the "end all". Personally an in-house movement is way down my list of priorities when considering any watch.

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1 hour ago, WRENCH said:

This one is ice cold. :yes:

large.MG-Moods-13112020-213.jpg.5e9167dd40b1bba6f1e2cf9db38568e4.jpg

 

 

 

The price will be relative to the economy of scale, bragging rights, and what the market will stand, the latter being the "end all". Personally an in-house movement is way down my list of priorities when considering any watch.

To be honest I couldn't see them stray too far from their present price structure, they have to keep their current customer base. And it shouldn't cost them much more, in the long run. Suck up costs now, win more customers later.

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On 21/10/2021 at 17:44, WRENCH said:

Personally an in-house movement is way down my list of priorities when considering any watch.

But can't agree with that  --  though each to his own taste of course.

I am sure that the good Mr. Smith could sell his watches a bit less expensively if he used Miyota movements, but he doesn’t. 

For me the mechanical movement is the soul of a watch. And, as I mentioned above, proprietary movements provide variety in the collection. For me they are quite important. 

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1 minute ago, yokel said:

I am sure that the good Mr. Smith could sell his watches a bit less expensively if he used Miyota movements, but he doesn’t. 

I'll agree with that, because Mr Smith is in a completely different league, and produces "mechanical art". Lesser mass produced stuff is what I had in mind. I'd far rather a "dressed" Unitas in something small scale done with skill and pride.

PS, I take it that Longitude on the rotor is a nod to John Harrison ?

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10 hours ago, WRENCH said:

I'll agree with that, because Mr Smith is in a completely different league, and produces "mechanical art". Lesser mass produced stuff is what I had in mind. I'd far rather a "dressed" Unitas in something small scale done with skill and pride.

PS, I take it that Longitude on the rotor is a nod to John Harrison ?

In some respects thats what Bremont has here. 

To my eyes there are 3 levels of movements in the watch world:

Bought in Movements - So movements like ETA, Selitta, Miyota etc, where they are bought from a manufacture and thrown into the case

Manufacture Movements - A movement designed and manufactured for a company, then hand assembled or modified by that company. Examples include Tudor and Breitling who pay Kennissi to produce the B01 movements. Its a half way house between bought in and in house. This is becoming more common with the desire to have in house movements, but basically produces the same result at a smaller price for the companies involved. 

Fully In House Movements - Fully designed, manufactured and assembled movements in house.

 

To me what Bremont have done here, is very much what Rolex used to do, and what Breitling/ Tudor do now. They have found a movement, bought the IP, so they now own the movement and then manufacture it inside their facility. 

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34 minutes ago, WickerBill said:

In some respects thats what Bremont has here. 

To my eyes there are 3 levels of movements in the watch world:

Bought in Movements - So movements like ETA, Selitta, Miyota etc, where they are bought from a manufacture and thrown into the case

Manufacture Movements - A movement designed and manufactured for a company, then hand assembled or modified by that company. Examples include Tudor and Breitling who pay Kennissi to produce the B01 movements. Its a half way house between bought in and in house. This is becoming more common with the desire to have in house movements, but basically produces the same result at a smaller price for the companies involved. 

Fully In House Movements - Fully designed, manufactured and assembled movements in house.

 

To me what Bremont have done here, is very much what Rolex used to do, and what Breitling/ Tudor do now. They have found a movement, bought the IP, so they now own the movement and then manufacture it inside their facility. 

Agree but would argue (not aggressively) that these are three types or routes to a movement rather than levels.

Each of these three types then has levels within it.

The bought in movements obviously have very different levels, a cheapo budget movement up to a high end lauded movement. But then even there there are levels of execution, a basic movement that is then heavily decorated and regulated might end up more desirable than a much higher spec movement literally (to quote your post) thrown into a case.

Same with the levels within the modified movements, there is a wide scope it seems for just how modified they may be.

The fully in-house movements are generally the reserve of high end brands, and so I expect that a certain level of expected quality exists, but I would still be surprised if there wasn't quite a spectrum between the most highly regarded and the most poorly received.

 

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4 minutes ago, Bricey said:

Agree but would argue (not aggressively) that these are three types or routes to a movement rather than levels.

Each of these three types then has levels within it.

The bought in movements obviously have very different levels, a cheapo budget movement up to a high end lauded movement. But then even there there are levels of execution, a basic movement that is then heavily decorated and regulated might end up more desirable than a much higher spec movement literally (to quote your post) thrown into a case.

Same with the levels within the modified movements, there is a wide scope it seems for just how modified they may be.

The fully in-house movements are generally the reserve of high end brands, and so I expect that a certain level of expected quality exists, but I would still be surprised if there wasn't quite a spectrum between the most highly regarded and the most poorly received.

 

yes, bad choice of terminology on my part, you are correct in what you say. Omega for example use the Valjoux 7753 in some Speedys.....but its not exactly standard!!!

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