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Dating Vintage Watches


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11 minutes ago, Galimbe said:

My caliber of Minerva I asked in Monblan and thay in 1week answered.

Intresting for me, that Hy.Moser said cant answer about year of movement, because its was lost (data and archive).

It's not unusual for some of the historic watch brands to have incomplete records, surprisingly some of the high end marque's have sketchy records.

Some of these are quietly encouraging owners of vintage timepieces to contact them (email with pic's first) so as to build up a data base, records, timeline of previous production.

They may even invite you to send your timepiece to them for analysis, you may be pleasantly surprised what evolves from this. 

Having said that, they are tuned in to sorting out the just curious & spurious.

It all assists in maintaining their heritage & patrimony.

Alan

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Lots of people ask about dating watches so I thought it might be a good idea to share our collective information. I'll start the ball rolling with dating Omegas. Essentially all Omegas are dated

Your table helped me to figure out the year of my Omega...

Not watchmaker called Derek but a watch wholesaler with a brother called Derrick (as far as I can tell).  Loius Braham's brother was called Derrick Braham.  Derrick watches and Derrick B watches are n

28 minutes ago, Galimbe said:

My caliber of Minerva I asked in Monblan and thay in 1week answered.

Intresting for me, that Hy.Moser said cant answer about year of movement, because its was lost (data and archive).

That's not unusual sadly. Archives got destroyed as companies changed hands, before the used wristwatch market took off and they all started playing on their heritage for marketing!

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 07/01/2010 at 10:05, Agent orange said:

Lots of people ask about dating watches so I thought it might be a good idea to share our collective information.

 

I'll start the ball rolling with dating Omegas. Essentially all Omegas are dated by their movement number, obviously you'll need access the movement to find this. Once that's done here's a list of movement numbers with corresponding years, I hope this is legible.

 

Omegamovementnumberdates.png

 

Although this is a good system and extremely useful it's not infallible or 100% accurate. Lots of Omegas are put togethers or frankenwatches especially the more iconic models. For example a vintage SM300 may well have a cal.565 from a much less valuable model like a Geneve. If your movement has a R next to the number it means it's a service replacement movement (thanks to JonW for that snippet of info).

 

Hope this helps and if anyone want to share dating information from other manufacturers please add to this post.

 

I've got a scan of a German Tissot dating sheet somewhere, if I can find it I'll translate, type it out and post later.

 

Cheers,

 

Gary

 

P.S. Mods do you think this might be worth pinning? Hopefully it'll grow into a useful resource for many.

Your table helped me to figure out the year of my Omega... :)

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Hi I was wondering if anyone could help me. I have an old Hamilton watch that I can't identify. It looks identical to the 61001-3 but the serial number is 61001-4 and it's gold plated (i think). Searching that number always results in the seaveiw 3 which is the wrong watch. Any help appreciated.

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13 minutes ago, L_G246 said:

Hi I was wondering if anyone could help me. I have an old Hamilton watch that I can't identify. It looks identical to the 61001-3 but the serial number is 61001-4 and it's gold plated (i think). Searching that number always results in the seaveiw 3 which is the wrong watch. Any help appreciated.

I might be able to help, but do you have some pictures you can show please?

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  • 1 month later...
On 7 January 2010 at 10:05, Agent orange said:

Lots of people ask about dating watches so I thought it might be a good idea to share our collective information.

 

I'll start the ball rolling with dating Omegas. Essentially all Omegas are dated by their movement number, obviously you'll need access the movement to find this. Once that's done here's a list of movement numbers with corresponding years, I hope this is legible.

 

Omegamovementnumberdates.png

 

Although this is a good system and extremely useful it's not infallible or 100% accurate. Lots of Omegas are put togethers or frankenwatches especially the more iconic models. For example a vintage SM300 may well have a cal.565 from a much less valuable model like a Geneve. If your movement has a R next to the number it means it's a service replacement movement (thanks to JonW for that snippet of info).

 

Hope this helps and if anyone want to share dating information from other manufacturers please add to this post.

 

 

Why can't I see 1953 ???? 

On 7 January 2010 at 10:05, Agent orange said:

I've got a scan of a German Tissot dating sheet somewhere, if I can find it I'll translate, type it out and post later.

 

Cheers,

 

Gary

 

P.S. Mods do you think this might be worth pinning? Hopefully it'll grow into a useful resource for many.

 

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The dating calendar is not infallible it is a guide. 

Whatever movement number correlates to the above table,  it will give you a date as to when that calibre was made. 

You will notice the increments per year are in millions,  when they were less than that number sold, the table join the years. 

You can write to Omega and for £60 or even more (it used to be free)  they will give you written information. 

Cheers Martin 

 

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@Agent orange Hi there, any luch with the post 1967 Universal Geneve dating matrixes ?

Thanks

Roby

Hi Universal Geneve lovers,
this prestigious brand shows as available matrixes with serial numbers only up to 1967, up to serial number 2.550.000.
However UG has made after that still many lovely watches, most with serial number on the back.
I just acquired an other one that I am having hard time idenfiying the aproximate manufacturing date which is what I was able to do with other 5 UG' s I have, all pre 1967.
Anybody has access to UG resources with tables post 1967 ?
My new purchase has serial number : 3.444.110
PS : I will have the watch opened (don' t know how to open this one) next week so with the cal number I may have some rough idea, in the mean time I just ask.

thanks in advance for any help

regards

Roby

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  • 3 months later...

Hello--I am new to this forum and have a question in search of an answer. As to Atlantic Worldmaster watches with 21 jewel Unitas 6300N movements is it possible to date them by the serial number etched into the caseback and , if so, can someone enlighten me on how the numbers correspond to year of manufacture. I can find very little information on these watches--Many thanks in advance

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Does anyone have any information about dating Accurist watches? I've looked online any can't find much. I've just bought what I think is a fairly early one, with the italic script logo and 21 jewels, antimagnetic and Swiss written on the face

It seems to have changed over the years to the modern one

Any help would be appreciated.

2 minutes ago, gimli said:

Maybe this place ? https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/forum/22-electric-electronic-watches/

Anyway, some pics would be nice.

Movements come with dates at certain positions specifically so no you can't adjust them. At most you can get a new date/day wheel that is correct for the position that you want (for the dial's hole basically)

Some movements come with date at 3 o'clock, some with date at 4 o'clock... It's all about the angles that the numbers/letters line up.

Thanks. I wasn't sure as it says early electric watches.

Thanks for the information, is it possible to take the day\date wheels from the old movement and swap them to the new one? Apart from that they're identical.

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46 minutes ago, Steveibiza said:

Does anyone have any information about dating Accurist watches? I've looked online any can't find much. I've just bought what I think is a fairly early one, with the italic script logo and 21 jewels, antimagnetic and Swiss written on the face

It seems to have changed over the years to the modern one

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks. I wasn't sure as it says early electric watches.

Thanks for the information, is it possible to take the day\date wheels from the old movement and swap them to the new one? Apart from that they're identical.

Yes if the movements are identical, you can take the wheels from the old one and "transplant" them onto the new one.

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On 18/09/2017 at 11:00, scottswatches said:

Nice result to help date Oris watches, taken from their official 100 years book so should be accurate

Oris logo 1928-1940Oris logos 51-85

 

amazing scott that means oris were still turning out the manual wind 702 between 80 and 85, in an age of quartz must have been an anomaly. 

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Moving away from the posh stuff to more workaday watches...

I seem to have accumulated a few KERED watches, but am having trouble putting a date on them.  The Seiko-based ones are easy, but the others are harder. 

As far as I can tell Louis Braham Ltd sold them from the early 50's to the late 60's, but I can't find any resources to help pin down what was sold when.  Does anyone here have any catalogues or similar documents that might help?  The script on the dial is not consistent. Some have a curly script Kered logo; some have a straighter script Kered logo.  Would I be correct in assuming that the curly one is earlier?  Also is there a date difference between a French-made watch having "Made in France" on the dial and one having "Foreign" on the dial?

Any help you can offer would be much appreciated.

Here are a couple of examples:

curly-script-Kered.jpg

Curly script logo with Made in France.

 

straight-script-Kered.jpg

Straight script logo with "Foreign"

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9 minutes ago, Eaglegale said:

Moving away from the posh stuff to more workaday watches...

I seem to have accumulated a few KERED watches, but am having trouble putting a date on them.  The Seiko-based ones are easy, but the others are harder. 

As far as I can tell Louis Braham Ltd sold them from the early 50's to the late 60's, but I can't find any resources to help pin down what was sold when.  Does anyone here have any catalogues or similar documents that might help?  The script on the dial is not consistent. Some have a curly script Kered logo; some have a straighter script Kered logo.  Would I be correct in assuming that the curly one is earlier?  Also is there a date difference between a French-made watch having "Made in France" on the dial and one having "Foreign" on the dial?

Any help you can offer would be much appreciated.

Here are a couple of examples:

curly-script-Kered.jpg

Curly script logo with Made in France.

 

straight-script-Kered.jpg

Straight script logo with "Foreign"

I think this brand is like Enicar, which was the designers name Racine backwards.  Anyone know a watchmaker called Derek?

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17 minutes ago, scottswatches said:

I think this brand is like Enicar, which was the designers name Racine backwards.  Anyone know a watchmaker called Derek?

Not watchmaker called Derek but a watch wholesaler with a brother called Derrick (as far as I can tell).  Loius Braham's brother was called Derrick Braham.  Derrick watches and Derrick B watches are named after him, and Kered is Derek backwards; Kcirred doesn't really work!  

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21 minutes ago, scottswatches said:

I think this brand is like Enicar, which was the designers name Racine backwards.  Anyone know a watchmaker called Derek?

Louis Braham Ltd was main agent for Newmark, Elbee, Hourmaster and Horsham. They also sold watches branded Kered and Derrick, Derrick being Louis's brother I believe. Louis Braham married Louis Newmark's daughter. There's several threads here and elsewhere from which you can piece the story together.

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/108584-kered-automatic/&tab=comments#comment-1133725

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/74036-information-needed-on-this-french-made-services/&tab=comments#comment-781197

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/newmark-watch-co-info-please-612406.html

A 1940s (I think) Kered with Cupillard 233 I used to own. I have another waiting for me to get round to fixing it.

2019-10-06_02-12-22

 

1960s Braham Advert

1960s Louis Braham advert

 

22 minutes ago, Eaglegale said:

Not watchmaker called Derek but a watch wholesaler with a brother called Derrick (as far as I can tell).  Loius Braham's brother was called Derrick Braham.  Derrick watches and Derrick B watches are named after him, and Kered is Derek backwards; Kcirred doesn't really work!  

Beat me to it, just. :)

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44 minutes ago, spinynorman said:

Louis Braham Ltd was main agent for Newmark, Elbee, Hourmaster and Horsham. They also sold watches branded Kered and Derrick, Derrick being Louis's brother I believe. Louis Braham married Louis Newmark's daughter. There's several threads here and elsewhere from which you can piece the story together.

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/108584-kered-automatic/&tab=comments#comment-1133725

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/74036-information-needed-on-this-french-made-services/&tab=comments#comment-781197

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/newmark-watch-co-info-please-612406.html

 

Thanks Spinynorman.

I've seen that info and it's useful for getting to grips with the company, but it's dates of the watches I can't find anything about.  Perhaps it all got binned when the company died?

53 minutes ago, spinynorman said:

 

2019-10-06_02-12-22

 

I've got a Kered with a very similar dial but a 17 jewel movement, and centre seconds.  It's got an inscription on the back that's dated Nov 1958.  I assume it was new when it was given to the recipient.  The numerals font is exactly the same as your watch.

P1170449.jpg

 

 

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3 hours ago, Eaglegale said:

I've got a Kered with a very similar dial but a 17 jewel movement, and centre seconds.  It's got an inscription on the back that's dated Nov 1958.  I assume it was new when it was given to the recipient.  The numerals font is exactly the same as your watch.

That's useful, inscriptions are generally good guides to the age of a watch. The other thing that helps is the movement. My Cupillard 233 didn't have shock protection, which suggests it was an early version. Have you looked in the back of your watches and identified the movements?

DSC_0146a

 

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