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Dating Vintage Watches


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Lots of people ask about dating watches so I thought it might be a good idea to share our collective information. I'll start the ball rolling with dating Omegas. Essentially all Omegas are dated

Your table helped me to figure out the year of my Omega...

You wait for ages for a German movement Kered to turn up then two turn up together!   This is, as far as I can tell, the automatic version of the HB111.  The automatic HB112 on Ranftt is 25 jewels not

Does anyone have any information about dating Accurist watches? I've looked online any can't find much. I've just bought what I think is a fairly early one, with the italic script logo and 21 jewels, antimagnetic and Swiss written on the face

It seems to have changed over the years to the modern one

Any help would be appreciated.

2 minutes ago, gimli said:

Maybe this place ? https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/forum/22-electric-electronic-watches/

Anyway, some pics would be nice.

Movements come with dates at certain positions specifically so no you can't adjust them. At most you can get a new date/day wheel that is correct for the position that you want (for the dial's hole basically)

Some movements come with date at 3 o'clock, some with date at 4 o'clock... It's all about the angles that the numbers/letters line up.

Thanks. I wasn't sure as it says early electric watches.

Thanks for the information, is it possible to take the day\date wheels from the old movement and swap them to the new one? Apart from that they're identical.

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46 minutes ago, Steveibiza said:

Does anyone have any information about dating Accurist watches? I've looked online any can't find much. I've just bought what I think is a fairly early one, with the italic script logo and 21 jewels, antimagnetic and Swiss written on the face

It seems to have changed over the years to the modern one

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks. I wasn't sure as it says early electric watches.

Thanks for the information, is it possible to take the day\date wheels from the old movement and swap them to the new one? Apart from that they're identical.

Yes if the movements are identical, you can take the wheels from the old one and "transplant" them onto the new one.

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On 18/09/2017 at 11:00, scottswatches said:

Nice result to help date Oris watches, taken from their official 100 years book so should be accurate

Oris logo 1928-1940Oris logos 51-85

 

amazing scott that means oris were still turning out the manual wind 702 between 80 and 85, in an age of quartz must have been an anomaly. 

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  • 6 months later...

Moving away from the posh stuff to more workaday watches...

I seem to have accumulated a few KERED watches, but am having trouble putting a date on them.  The Seiko-based ones are easy, but the others are harder. 

As far as I can tell Louis Braham Ltd sold them from the early 50's to the late 60's, but I can't find any resources to help pin down what was sold when.  Does anyone here have any catalogues or similar documents that might help?  The script on the dial is not consistent. Some have a curly script Kered logo; some have a straighter script Kered logo.  Would I be correct in assuming that the curly one is earlier?  Also is there a date difference between a French-made watch having "Made in France" on the dial and one having "Foreign" on the dial?

Any help you can offer would be much appreciated.

Here are a couple of examples:

curly-script-Kered.jpg

Curly script logo with Made in France.

 

straight-script-Kered.jpg

Straight script logo with "Foreign"

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9 minutes ago, Eaglegale said:

Moving away from the posh stuff to more workaday watches...

I seem to have accumulated a few KERED watches, but am having trouble putting a date on them.  The Seiko-based ones are easy, but the others are harder. 

As far as I can tell Louis Braham Ltd sold them from the early 50's to the late 60's, but I can't find any resources to help pin down what was sold when.  Does anyone here have any catalogues or similar documents that might help?  The script on the dial is not consistent. Some have a curly script Kered logo; some have a straighter script Kered logo.  Would I be correct in assuming that the curly one is earlier?  Also is there a date difference between a French-made watch having "Made in France" on the dial and one having "Foreign" on the dial?

Any help you can offer would be much appreciated.

Here are a couple of examples:

curly-script-Kered.jpg

Curly script logo with Made in France.

 

straight-script-Kered.jpg

Straight script logo with "Foreign"

I think this brand is like Enicar, which was the designers name Racine backwards.  Anyone know a watchmaker called Derek?

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17 minutes ago, scottswatches said:

I think this brand is like Enicar, which was the designers name Racine backwards.  Anyone know a watchmaker called Derek?

Not watchmaker called Derek but a watch wholesaler with a brother called Derrick (as far as I can tell).  Loius Braham's brother was called Derrick Braham.  Derrick watches and Derrick B watches are named after him, and Kered is Derek backwards; Kcirred doesn't really work!  

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21 minutes ago, scottswatches said:

I think this brand is like Enicar, which was the designers name Racine backwards.  Anyone know a watchmaker called Derek?

Louis Braham Ltd was main agent for Newmark, Elbee, Hourmaster and Horsham. They also sold watches branded Kered and Derrick, Derrick being Louis's brother I believe. Louis Braham married Louis Newmark's daughter. There's several threads here and elsewhere from which you can piece the story together.

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/108584-kered-automatic/&tab=comments#comment-1133725

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/74036-information-needed-on-this-french-made-services/&tab=comments#comment-781197

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/newmark-watch-co-info-please-612406.html

A 1940s (I think) Kered with Cupillard 233 I used to own. I have another waiting for me to get round to fixing it.

2019-10-06_02-12-22

 

1960s Braham Advert

1960s Louis Braham advert

 

22 minutes ago, Eaglegale said:

Not watchmaker called Derek but a watch wholesaler with a brother called Derrick (as far as I can tell).  Loius Braham's brother was called Derrick Braham.  Derrick watches and Derrick B watches are named after him, and Kered is Derek backwards; Kcirred doesn't really work!  

Beat me to it, just. :)

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44 minutes ago, spinynorman said:

Louis Braham Ltd was main agent for Newmark, Elbee, Hourmaster and Horsham. They also sold watches branded Kered and Derrick, Derrick being Louis's brother I believe. Louis Braham married Louis Newmark's daughter. There's several threads here and elsewhere from which you can piece the story together.

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/108584-kered-automatic/&tab=comments#comment-1133725

https://thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/74036-information-needed-on-this-french-made-services/&tab=comments#comment-781197

https://forums.watchuseek.com/f11/newmark-watch-co-info-please-612406.html

 

Thanks Spinynorman.

I've seen that info and it's useful for getting to grips with the company, but it's dates of the watches I can't find anything about.  Perhaps it all got binned when the company died?

53 minutes ago, spinynorman said:

 

2019-10-06_02-12-22

 

I've got a Kered with a very similar dial but a 17 jewel movement, and centre seconds.  It's got an inscription on the back that's dated Nov 1958.  I assume it was new when it was given to the recipient.  The numerals font is exactly the same as your watch.

P1170449.jpg

 

 

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3 hours ago, Eaglegale said:

I've got a Kered with a very similar dial but a 17 jewel movement, and centre seconds.  It's got an inscription on the back that's dated Nov 1958.  I assume it was new when it was given to the recipient.  The numerals font is exactly the same as your watch.

That's useful, inscriptions are generally good guides to the age of a watch. The other thing that helps is the movement. My Cupillard 233 didn't have shock protection, which suggests it was an early version. Have you looked in the back of your watches and identified the movements?

DSC_0146a

 

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On 08/02/2020 at 11:25, Eaglegale said:

My 1958 17-jewel is, as far as I can see, a non-shock protected Cupillard 256.

I'll go through them and try to ID all of the movements.  

According to Ranfft, the Cupillard 256 dates to around 1960, so 1958 looks like a good date for that watch. There's several Louis Braham adverts on sites like Adbooma, which helpfully dates them. Most of the adverts just have Kered in a list of names, but one from 1954 shows the Kered logo, with block capitals and underlining as on the second watch you posted and the one I had. So we know that wordmark was being used then. The earlier adverts I've found, from 1949 and 1952 mention "Derrick", but not "Kered", but that may not mean anything. However, I'm now doubting the 1940s dating on the watch I had.

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Here's a non-Cupillard movement.  I'm very much a beginner with all this, and it has taken quite a bit of searching to determine what movement this is. 

It's a DuRoWe 1162 badged as a Stowa and fitted to a Kered watch.  17jewels dot info reckons it was in production from 1956 to 1964.  I'll keep on with my research...

Du-Ro-We-1162-1-watch-1.jpg

Du-Ro-We-1162-2-watch-1.jpg

Du-Ro-We-1162-3-watch-1.jpg

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1 hour ago, Eaglegale said:

17jewels dot info reckons it was in production from 1956 to 1964. 

Interesting, first Kered I've seen with a German movement. 

When I was researching Allaine, I found a script wordmark registered in 1941, and then a block capitals one registered much later. It would be interesting to date the script Kered you posted, whether or not it fits the same pattern.

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Perhaps this Derrick watch might help with dating?  Looks more 40's than 50's to me. It's what I would call a "boy's watch" as it is quite small.  Still managed to squeeze in a subsidiary seconds hand though.  I don't know anything about the movement other than it's Swiss and 15-jewels.  Nice bit of engine turning inside the case back.

Derrick-watch-face-Feb-2020.jpg

Derrick-watch-movement-Feb-2020.jpg

Derrick branded movement.

Derrick-watch-back-inside-Feb-2020.jpg

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1 hour ago, Eaglegale said:

Perhaps this Derrick watch might help with dating?  Looks more 40's than 50's to me. It's what I would call a "boy's watch" as it is quite small.  Still managed to squeeze in a subsidiary seconds hand though.  I don't know anything about the movement other than it's Swiss and 15-jewels.  Nice bit of engine turning inside the case back.

 

Could it be an FHF 186?

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&FHF_186

Came across a nicely dated Kered on ebay.

s-l1600.jpg

The one I had was small, but I think a lot of them were in that period.

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23 hours ago, spinynorman said:

Interesting, first Kered I've seen with a German movement. 

When I was researching Allaine, I found a script wordmark registered in 1941, and then a block capitals one registered much later. It would be interesting to date the script Kered you posted, whether or not it fits the same pattern.

You wait for ages for a German movement Kered to turn up then two turn up together!   This is, as far as I can tell, the automatic version of the HB111.  The automatic HB112 on Ranftt is 25 jewels not 17, so I reckon it's an early HB112 from the early 60's.  Not running unfortunately.

Ultramatic-1.jpg

Ultramatic-2.jpg

Ultramatic-3-face.jpg

 

Thanks for the info on the Swiss "boys" watch.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Form the London Gazette 27 April 1948

NOTICE is hereby given that by a deed poll dated the 21st February 1948 and enrolled in the. Supreme Court of Judicature on the 23rd February 1948

I,LOUIS BRAHAM of r8 Dunstan Road, Golders Green, London, N.W 11, a naturalised British subject, abandoned the surname of Abramovitcb and adopted, the surname of Braham —Dated 22nd day of April, 1948 (0311)

LOUIS BRAHAM

I wonder if it's the same Louis Braham as the one of Kered fame?

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1 hour ago, Eaglegale said:

Form the London Gazette 27 April 1948

NOTICE is hereby given that by a deed poll dated the 21st February 1948 and enrolled in the. Supreme Court of Judicature on the 23rd February 1948

I,LOUIS BRAHAM of r8 Dunstan Road, Golders Green, London, N.W 11, a naturalised British subject, abandoned the surname of Abramovitcb and adopted, the surname of Braham —Dated 22nd day of April, 1948 (0311)

LOUIS BRAHAM

I wonder if it's the same Louis Braham as the one of Kered fame?

Probably. I'm sure I've read that somewhere else.

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  • 5 months later...

Hello everyone, I hope it's okay to post and ask for a dating on a watch. Because I know absolutely nothing about watches.

So I inherited this Omega Automatic Seamaster Big Seahorse from my grandad when he passed away. At least I think it's the Big Seahorse but I'm not sure.

I would like to open it to find out the date myself but I'm afraid I'll damage it.

I post a link to Imgur with pictures and a short video on how it looks like.

I would like to find out as much as possible about it. For example if it's solid gold, the date, the exact name and so on.

Can someone help me with this? I understand if it's not possible without opening it, so if that's what it takes, maybe someone can guide me in the correct way for that. I really don't want to damage the watch in any way.

Here's the pictures and a short video clip: http://imgur.com/gallery/rS4gCxY

Take care everyone!

Sincerely,

Christian

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