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Submariner Auto Homages: Which Is The Best Value?


Chromejob
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413yqA3GsLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg41YCWMWyvKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

The two-tone is listed with a winder ... a customer complained of "cloudy crystal," so quality control is lacking.

No opinions or experience at all with Croton? It's in the same price range as Alpha, but with a Japanese (unk. maker) movement.

Looks to be some models with Miyota 8215 and others using Seagull ST16 or DG28/38 auto's - think they all have the same dimensions - the indicator as to which I guess being whether it hacks/hand winds... Someone will likely know better than me though.

Curious myself, could be potential for my 'experiment' in modding... which seems to be getting nowhere fast.

Howie

Edited by howie77
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Tuesday or Thursday night I saw a not-so-ugly-I-puked Invicta dive watch, with a SII NH25A movement ... which, on the superzoom pics I could tell would wind both ways, unlike the Miyota movement in the watches I mentioned on page one. Researching the movement, I found specs that indicated that the movement could be manufactured in Japan or ... um ... was it Thailand? Somewhere. The promotional pics I've seen do not show the location marking.

Anyway, if I'm to believe this thread at Watchuseek the NH25A is a copy of the Seiko 7S25A movement.

Searching around for the watches with the NH25A ... Invictas like 6055, 6030,... something like that. Oh, here's a review of the one I think was on sale. Not bad looking for US$60, eh? I shoulda bought it.

I have no knowledge of whether these movements can be interchanged into other cases, but if you could get a good movement in a good case, and it's a duplicate of a common Seiko movement, would not the dial and hands be something you can change easily? :whistle:

Until I caught this O&W fever, the Orient was my affordable favorite. Nice dial, reasonably good fit and finish, quality movement, some have said the case and bracelet are good quality, too.

Edited by David Spalding
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Tuesday or Thursday night I saw a not-so-ugly-I-puked Invicta dive watch, with a SII NH25A movement ... which, on the superzoom pics I could tell would wind both ways, unlike the Miyota movement in the watches I mentioned on page one. Researching the movement, I found specs that indicated that the movement could be manufactured in Japan or ... um ... was it Thailand? Somewhere. The promotional pics I've seen do not show the location marking.

Anyway, if I'm to believe this thread at Watchuseek the NH25A is a copy of the Seiko 7S25A movement.

Searching around for the watches with the NH25A ... Invictas like 6055, 6030,... something like that. Oh, here's a review of the one I think was on sale. Not bad looking for US$60, eh? I shoulda bought it.

I have no knowledge of whether these movements can be interchanged into other cases, but if you could get a good movement in a good case, and it's a duplicate of a common Seiko movement, would not the dial and hands be something you can change easily? :whistle:

Thanks for this David.. very interesting.

On looking there appears to be quite a few Invicta's in the 6xxx series fitted with the NH25a. Essentially the same movement as the old A version of the 7Sxx from what I've read, though of course the main issue being that the Seiko's have the crown at 4 o'clock, as opposed to at 3 o'clock on the NH25a Invicta.

Wouldn't be an issue I guess with a sterile/non-date window dial of course, but I'd likely have to check the measurements of the dial and movement to make sure they would fit, and of course I suspect still have to break the dial feet and stick the dial to the movement plate. Not really an issue though I shouldn't think.

Still, sounds better, not overly keen on actually buying a new SKX007 with the sole intention of then breaking it up! fear.gif

cheers, H

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Any of the above would make a great choice and here's another worth considering.... I have this Sandoz sub which is very nicely put together and has a 25 jewelled ETA movement. Very good VFM IMHO - have fun choosing :)

sandozSubmariner_006HDR.jpg

Been meaning to say Mark, your Sandoz looks awesome. Yours looks to be the Hong Kong version? I really prefer this one, not overly keen on the applique logo detail on the Singapore version. Funny how the only place it seems to get these is over at pmwf though, never seen them anywhere else.

Circa $200 for an eta 2836? Sounds alright to me!

cheers, H

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I personally don’t have any problem homage watches. I have two both Pannys and I can’t see what the problem is. For my two pennies worth a fake is a watch, which has been made to mislead people, it will have makers name on it it will have same font etc some of them are very well made, but they are imho fakes and unacceptable. On saying that I have brought the odd one or two when on hols 10 euros for fun. Now the watches on this topic imho are not fakes they have their own makers name on them and there are differences. Also many people are very badly paid and have a lot responsibilities that draw on their funds, how can they get the design they like ? Best way imho is to get a homage (not a fake) there is a saying that people who ware fakes are fakes trying to appear as something they are not , that cannot be said of the person who has a homage watch because he has the choice to buy fake with the name on it copying the watch in total detail, or a homage like the ones mentioned in this topic Orient , Robert, Invicta and of course those with sterile dials. Since I have been a member of this forum I have concluded that the people on it are not fakes they have a genuine interest in watches and do not try to be something they are not so what would they want with a fake in the first place..

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I personally don’t have any problem homage watches. I have two both Pannys and I can’t see what the problem is. For my two pennies worth a fake is a watch, which has been made to mislead people, it will have makers name on it it will have same font etc some of them are very well made, but they are imho fakes and unacceptable. On saying that I have brought the odd one or two when on hols 10 euros for fun. Now the watches on this topic imho are not fakes they have their own makers name on them and there are differences. Also many people are very badly paid and have a lot responsibilities that draw on their funds, how can they get the design they like ? Best way imho is to get a homage (not a fake) there is a saying that people who ware fakes are fakes trying to appear as something they are not , that cannot be said of the person who has a homage watch because he has the choice to buy fake with the name on it copying the watch in total detail, or a homage like the ones mentioned in this topic Orient , Robert, Invicta and of course those with sterile dials. Since I have been a member of this forum I have concluded that the people on it are not fakes they have a genuine interest in watches and do not try to be something they are not so what would they want with a fake in the first place..

Oh yeah, I'm with you! Homages FTW!! :notworthy:

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Take a look around a general 'lower end' watch shop, full of Seikos, Citizens, Tissots etc etc (you get the idea).

Most of the cheaper end of the market is in the style of the more expensive end. It's full of Rolex/Omega/Breitling etc homages, though I doubt most of their buyers evern realise this.

It's the same with clothes: what appears on the catwalk one month is in the high street the next.

It's how this kind of market works.

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How about Milsub inspired?

263g1w2.jpg

Rgds

Jim

I quite like that, more details would be appreciated :yes:

Im still waiting on more info on the Vickers, or have I missed it somewhere. Has anyone seen the Alpha milsub. If I wanted to do a milsub homeage, what would be the best case and mov't to use. I would like to go as cheap as possible but still be good quality. Thanks.........Bill

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Im still waiting on more info on the Vickers, or have I missed it somewhere. Has anyone seen the Alpha milsub. If I wanted to do a milsub homeage, what would be the best case and mov't to use. I would like to go as cheap as possible but still be good quality. Thanks.........Bill

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Multiple follow-ons....

... Essentially the same movement as the old A version of the 7Sxx from what I've read, though of course the main issue being that the Seiko's have the crown at 4 o'clock, as opposed to at 3 o'clock on the NH25a Invicta....

I have a 7S26 with the crown at 3 o'clock. Center stage here:

20100531-2550_800_threesilverseikos.jpg

With all the new watches coming in -- darn you, guys, I've caught the bug no thanks to you -- I was thinking of flipping this one, but when I wear it or put it next to other divers, I discover again how distinctive and 'classy' it looks. Nice all-steel and understated look. Bravo, Seiko.

I might be recollecting incorrectly, but I thought I read a page which stated the date-only movement was ... 24A or something? Perhaps that's what you're thinking of. Actually ... the crown can be at any position, can't it? The date numerals will line up either way, you just need to adjust the cog(?) which clicks the date over at roughly 2300-0100...? (IAMAH ... I Am Not An Horologist)

_________________

I've been toying with the idea of a Submariner repro/lookalike that I could fit with the correct NATO "Goldfinger" strap. A classic look that [more than a] few aficionados (as well as spy movie geeks) would appreciate. The idea of a replica Rolex doesn't appeal to me, due to the usual questions: "is it real," "why wear a fake," "you snobby nob." Besides, for the same money, you can get a watch with a known movement (not luck of the draw). Based on some casual reading here, I gather that some of the "homage" models are in fact fine watches, come with quality movements,... and that's not even counting some of the small watchmakers who make similar models in the $1000-2500 range (at which point, I ask, why not find a vintage authentic Rolex to spiff up).....

(emphasis added)

I cannot friggin believe no one mentioned the MK II "Kingston" project that's been underway for 18 months. Sorry that I missed out on that beauty (and Bill Yao's giving them away even at the US$875 price point, IMHO). Hoping that he creates a sort of ongoing version as he did with his Tournek LTD and the Stingray model.

Price points being no object, IMHO, MK II seems the best way to go for a Sub-alike, partly for quality, partly for your ability to order exactly what you want in a bezel, crystal, dial, hands, sweep second "dipped," and even the date wheel. I spent a few hours yesterday while the gf ran through old LOST episodes, trying out different combinations in different cases, and regularly resulted in beautiful, unique Sub-alikes for < $1500.

_________________

The Grovana Coral Reef and the Steinhart/Debaufre Ocean series are top quality "homages" with Swiss ETA 2824 movements, but expect to pay a lot more for them new than the Invicta and Orients.

Good call DMP - I've had a Grovana & quality is excellent - The Steinhart would be up here with it too - Either of these would be my homage of choice ... Paul :thumbsup:

PS - The Alpha 'Sub' would be on my list if budget was tight though I'd be looking for a decent bracelet as theirs are a bit ropey!

I've read elsewhere that Grovana actually make the Steinharts ... also that quality control has been up-and-down, RLT no longer carrying them being a possible indicator. Looked at Steinhart's GMTs and they're selling for much less than the usual US FleaBay prices indicated. I might get one of those this year as I'm still craving a GMT model diver[1] (and MK II's, though really nice with hands you can choose, cost twice as much if you go customizing it).

[1] You'd think my recently acquired O&W M5 would suffice. I might flip that around once I have another O&W in hand. I bought it rather as a contingency, though the Omega SM300 hands are growing on me.

_________________

Rolex just hit pay dirt with the subs design.

Exactly THEIR design :D

Wasn't the sub a 'homage' of the blancpain fifty fathoms?

From all the reading I've done since opening this thread, and then some, I get the idea that Blancpain's seminal Fifty Fathoms design, and the original Rolex Sub, came out about the same time, and dive watch design can be traced to one of these two almost universally.

__________________

... Seiko also do some sub-inspired watches, check out the SKX023 for example....

Quite right, not as close a match as the other homages (hands, day/date), but with the venerable 7S26 movement (ahem, Howie, note the crown position), certainly a contender, and at US$150-200 street price, affordable.

skx023k2-big1_227_400.jpg

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... Now the watches on this topic imho are not fakes they have their own makers name on them and there are differences. Also many people are very badly paid and have a lot responsibilities that draw on their funds, how can they get the design they like ? Best way imho is to get a homage (not a fake) there is a saying that people who ware fakes are fakes trying to appear as something they are not , that cannot be said of the person who has a homage watch because he has the choice to buy fake with the name on it copying the watch in total detail, or a homage like the ones mentioned in this topic Orient , Robert, Invicta and of course those with sterile dials....

Some of the brands (cough, Invicta, cough) don't seem to bring much to the watch besides some derivative styling and a cheap movement (cheap though serviceable). The Miyota specifically ... several places I've seen people note that it can be off the wrist for all of 8-10 hours and lose its power reserve. :shocking: That $60 special 6xxx with the NH25A (Seiko 7S26 derivative movement) would've made a fine 'working on the car' or 'building a house' watch VFM. It's all what you want for a "beater."

But crossing the US$200 threshold, I'm finding watches with ETA or Valjoux movements in which the heart of the watch is great quality, and detailing and quality of the dial, hands, case, and bracelet make the deal. I just passed on an O&W chrono (3066CD or similar, asking US$795, came down to $695 on counteroffer) that, from the seller's photos, had a bracelet on folded links. For £299 or so I can get a Swiss movement with a solid link bracelet from Roy or Herr Wajs. So you're dead on correct, in the < £1000 realm, you can get a watch with a good movement, and a well done presentation, that should never be confused with a "fake." Though adherence to the exact same presentation that a Rolex offers, I would consider an "original" with damned little innovation. I little innovation is good....

I would consider Bill Yao's "Kingston" a very different matter -- an exacting historical reproduction. (sigh) I'm very crestfallen to have missed that boat (Quarrel's). :crybaby: :wallbash:

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Im still waiting on more info on the Vickers, or have I missed it somewhere. Has anyone seen the Alpha milsub. If I wanted to do a milsub homeage, what would be the best case and mov't to use. I would like to go as cheap as possible but still be good quality. Thanks.........Bill

Cheap as possible and good quality? It's the Alpha then, already done and all...

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Im still waiting on more info on the Vickers, or have I missed it somewhere. Has anyone seen the Alpha milsub. If I wanted to do a milsub homeage, what would be the best case and mov't to use. I would like to go as cheap as possible but still be good quality. Thanks.........Bill

Cheap as possible and good quality? It's the Alpha then, already done and all...

Thank you. I thought I saw it on sell at thier web site................Bill

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I just looked at it again, the alpha, looks good BUT I want one with a milsub bezel ring. Now where could I find that. What do ya'll think of the the company's that make the fake Rolex's. They have one with a eta 2836 in it. You can get a sterile dial for it and better hands, what about the quaility of the case. Anyone know?................Bill

Hi, we can't discuss fakes on this forum, it's against the rules...

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I just looked at it again, the alpha, looks good BUT I want one with a milsub bezel ring. Now where could I find that. What do ya'll think of the the company's that make the fake Rolex's. They have one with a eta 2836 in it. You can get a sterile dial for it and better hands, what about the quaility of the case. Anyone know?................Bill

Hi, we can't discuss fakes on this forum, it's against the rules...

Thanks, sorry about that. I have an O&W M4, I could use it............Bill

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Did someone say Ollech & Wajs?

20100621-2641_1024.jpg

I hope the scenery doesn't violate forum protocol. PM if so, image can be changed.

My other O&W was, so the prior owner told me, converted by North East Watch Works. Appears to do exceptional work, including dial and and bezel and crown switch-outs. Might be what you're looking for.

Edited by David Spalding
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Did someone say Ollech & Wajs?

20100621-2641_1024.jpg

I hope the scenery doesn't violate forum protocol. PM if so, image can be changed.

My other O&W was, so the prior owner told me, converted by North East Watch Works. Appears to do exceptional work, including dial and and bezel and crown switch-outs. Might be what you're looking for.

Thanks David, I will check them out.............Bill

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Some excellent suggestions on here! :thumbsup:

I like the look of the green sub style Steinhart Ocean 1 and the Robert Diver - think one of them will be making it onto my wish list (may even push the O&W M4 off for now). :rolleyes:

They look very similar to my untrained eye - given the similar recommended price is there anything much to set them apart? (are they effectively the same watch??)

352176484Ocean_one_green_front_back.jpg30_0.jpg

My initial thought is that the Steinhart is a bit more classy looking as the main logo is less cluttered than the Robert but they're both nice!

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They look very similar to my untrained eye - given the similar recommended price is there anything much to set them apart? (are they effectively the same watch??)

My initial thought is that the Steinhart is a bit more classy looking as the main logo is less cluttered than the Robert but they're both nice!

I think I also made that question here or somewhere else. If they are not the same (and I think they are not) they are very close in everyway. Even the price is around the same on both.

Like you, I got much more interested in the Steinhart, looks a lot better IMHO. I was really tempted by it but then some guys overhere showed me the Alpha :sly:

Got that one (and two, and three and four...) and never looked back! But that's just me, I'm a cheap :censored: like that :wink2:

Edited by Kutusov
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I just threw up a little in my mouth ... sorry, but an Alpha is not comparable to an O&W with a ETA 2824 movement. That much I DO know.

Lovely M4 there (more like "5513" reproduction), I particularly like it with the M5 GMT bezel insert. I was thinking of cobbling one together of my bits and pieces, but I'm trying to restrain myself.

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I just threw up a little in my mouth ... sorry, but an Alpha is not comparable to an O&W with a ETA 2824 movement. That much I DO know.

Ok, fine... what about a sterile Parnis sub-alike? :P

Oh, and I'm sure that your reflux wasn't because of my Alpha was it? Just Alpha in general... because mine is beautiful :inlove:

Edited by Kutusov
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