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SEIKO7A38

Need Help With Sourcing A Screw-Down Crown

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My turn to ask some 'dumb newbie' type questions for a change. :bag:

I usually quite enjoy the chase of finding 'unobtanium' spare parts - and don't give up easily. :smoke:

But sometimes, I have to admit I'm getting out of my depth, and need to ask help of the experts. :notworthy:

Let me give you a little background - the story so far ....

With some assistance from Skip ('watchking1') I've bought another Yema Spationaute III. :thumbsup:

In some repects, it's a bit of a beater, but it certainly has potential.

The watch has been messed with - I intend to try and put it right. :hammer:

11232667-lg.jpg

It's one of the later 'reduced diameter versions' - 38mm Ø, instead of the usual 43mm Ø.

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Apart from obvious things, like the hands needing re-luming, it's got a few other issues. :unsure:

One of the first things I'd noticed from the seller's fuzzy photos, was that it was fitted with the wrong crown:

11232659-lg.jpg

This is one of the Q&D photos that Skip took, before mailing it off to me:

IMG_7639.jpg

As you can see, the crown is way too small for the milled recess. :thumbsdown:

This is what the screw-down crown looks like on a 'normal' full-sized 43mm Ø Yema Spationaute III:

YemaSpationauteIII-Detail-ScrewDownCrown.jpg

It's 5.25mm diameter, and screws down onto a 4.0mm diameter threaded tube.

I wasn't too worried about the incoming 38mm Ø Yema Spationaute III having the wrong crown ....

.... because I had (or at least thought I had) a spare used one ready and waiting -

It was part of a lot I bought on eBay almost 12 months ago - see left of this photo:

YemaSpationauteIII-eBayFrance-Nov2009-DialFaceOnly-3.jpg

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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This is what the screw-down crown looks like on a 'normal' full-sized 43mm Ø Yema Spationaute III ....

It's 5.25mm diameter, and screws down onto a 4.0mm diameter threaded tube.

I wasn't too worried about the incoming 38mm Ø Yema Spationaute III having the wrong crown ....

.... because I had (or at least thought I had) a spare used one ready and waiting ....

Only it isn't quite that simple, it seems ! :dontgetit:

There's no way that 'spare' Yema crown is going to fit the 38mm Ø Spationaute. :hammer:

I hadn't taken into account the different wall thicknesses of their respective watch-cases. :blush:

Not only that the 'shank' (terminology ?) is way to long, but also too thick, because ....

The threaded tube on the 38mm is only 3.0mm Ø instead of 4.0mm Ø used on the 43mm ! :angry:

Fortunately the original tube and its threads were intact, and unmolested, under that hollow crown. :sweatdrop:

So it's off to our favourite UK watch materials house for a solution ....

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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So it's off to our favourite UK watch materials house for a solution ....

See: http://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/4/661/1975.aspx - and scroll down to 'J' and 'K'.

They list 6 different variations of this crown for 3.0mm and 4.0mm threaded tubes:

CousinsCrownTypeJ.jpgCousinsCrownTypeK.jpg

Unfortunately, they don't appear to have exactly what I need ....

Being the 5.25mm Ø / 3.0mm external threaded version in Stainless Steel. :(

This is the nearest they stock (or currently have on their database).

Dimensions are all correct (I think), but it's gold-plated, not stainless:

Cousins-C9039.jpg

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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My turn to ask some 'dumb newbie' type questions for a change. :bag:

So my 'dumb newbie' question (for now) is ....

What does the Tap 9 (Tap 0.9mm) or Tap 12 (Tap 1.2mm) refer to ? :unsure:

Is it referring to the thread of the stem, which the crown itself will take internally ?

As in here below (with a standard 7A38-7270 crown and stem) ?

7A38-7270-Stainless-Crown.jpg

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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See: http://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/4/661/1975.aspx - and scroll down to 'J' and 'K'.

I may be getting somewhere already. :) Thanks to Cousins for the clue:

Crowns - Style J/K Screwdown Crown With External Thread - ISO Swiss

They're obviously made by ISO Swiss: http://www.isoswiss.ch/default.asp?Language=EN

See: http://www.isoswiss.ch/CMS/default.asp?ID=1669 and maybe this: http://www.isoswiss.ch/modules/shop/showcategory.asp?ID=160

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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Can you lightly remove the gold plate from the crown from Couisin's?

That's the problem with some of these "off" brands is parts availability.

Sometimes we just need to overcome and improvise !!

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Can you lightly remove the gold plate from the crown from Cousin's?

Sometimes we just need to overcome and improvise !!

That thought had occured to me, already Skip.

Alternatively I could buy Cousins p/n C9067 - and a 'K' tube. :unsure:

It's stainless - the right dimensions, except that it uses the 4.0mm threaded tube.

Would mean changing the tube, obviously - and I'm not too confident about doing this myself. :hammer:

Going to try contacting ISO-Swiss tomorrow - to enquire as to whether they actually make what I need. :telephone:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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That's the problem with some of these "off" brands is parts availability.

Yema have a pretty appalling past record of product support ....

.... even before their bankruptcy, subsequent 'rescue' by Ambre group and Yema USA coming into being.

I was googling 'Yema pièces détachées' (spare parts) last week, looking for any possible sources. :read:

All I found were complaints from past customers, retailers and repairers and a general aura of disgust. :thumbsdown:

Here's a typical example: http://forumamontres.forumactif.com/forum-general-de-discussions-horlogeres-f1/completement-degoute-par-yema-et-son-pdg-t46692.htm

So I'm not holding out much hope of finding spare parts from their Seiko C.G.H. era, twenty years ago. :(

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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I've been 'getting nowhere fast with this one'. :( Lots of googling. :read:

Found a couple of useful threads along the way.

See: http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=24064

and: http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=48525

But this has temporarily 'thrown a spanner in the works': http://www.esslinger.com/howtomeasureawatchcrown.aspx

The suitable 'mushroom style' crowns from Cousins / ISO Swiss are threaded for a 0.9mm stem.

I've dug out a spare Seiko p/n 0354728 stem, as used on the 7A38's; measured it and it's 0.77mm !! :angry:

Back to the drawing board ! :sadwalk:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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Now I'm getting REALLY confused. :huh:

I just found this: http://www.wrist-check.com/showthread.php?1402-Watch-stem-TAP-size-reference-guide

Watch stem TAP size reference guide

I thought this may be useful for members, as the TAP question often comes up.

And since I still don't see any "General Movement Reference" section, I guess this is as good a place as any to put it.

Stem Tap - MM Size Cross Reference Chart

.60MM TAP 13

.70MM TAP 12

.80MM TAP 11

.90MM TAP 10

1.00MM TAP 9

1.10MM TAP 8

1.20MM TAP 7

1.30MM TAP 6

1.40MM TAP 5

1.50MM TAP 4

1.60MM TAP 3

1.70MM TAP 2

1.80MM TAP 1

1.90MM TAP 0

Plus I've just offered up a new uncut Seiko 7A38 stem into that 'spare' (but wrong) Yema Spationaute III crown, and found it's a sloppy (non-threading) fit. The thread on that 'botched' stem (with the wrong non-screwdown crown) measures 0.88mm.

What have I got myself into ? :unsure:

Can anybody please confirm whether the information in the above table is correct - or not ?

Because it conflicts with what Cousins are showing in their illustration:

Cousins-C9039.jpg

According to that, Tap 9 = .90mm !!

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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This is getting more interesting by the minute. :umnik: So, I'm sorry if I'm boring you with my ramblings. :yawn:

The light was half-decent this lunchtime, so I took a couple of Q&D photos of the offending bits. :photo:

The currently fitted 'undersized bodge' hollow non-screwdown crown:

P1030439-Resized.jpg

The 3.0mm Ø externally threaded tube (which I'm assuming is original):

P1030441-Resized.jpg

A 5.25mm Ø x 4.0mm Ø threaded crown (a spare for a 43mm Ø Yema Spationaute III, which won't fit the 38mm version) ....

.... and the 'bodge' hollow non-screwdown crown, fitted with what I'm presuming is the original Yema 0.9mm Ø stem:

P1030440-Resized.jpg

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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I also took the opportunity of making a few measurements. :wink:

Just as well I did. :rolleyes: And I double checked this one. :lookaround:

The milled recess around the 3.0mm threaded crown tube is NOT 5.25mm Ø ! It's only 5.15mm Ø !! :angry:

Which leads me more and more to believe that the original missing crown may have been a Yema 'special'. :unsure:

Right now, I'm thinking about going to see my friendly local watchmaker ....

To ask him to change the 3.0mm Ø threaded tube for a 4.0mm Ø threaded tube ....

And to machine down the crown I already have in hand to suit the 38mm Ø Spationaute's narrower body.

The only good news is that I tried the 0.9mm stem in that spare Yema crown and the threads matched ! :sport:

Something else I noticed, under magnification .....

Was that the end of the existing 3.0.mm threaded tube looks more like a 'Style I', rather than a 'Style J':

CousinsExternalScrewDownCrowns.jpg

The dimensions (those that I could measure in situ) appear to match too. :unsure:

So I'm going to try an alternative - not perfect, but cheaper solution, first .....

Whatever happens, it can only be better than the existing 'bodged' crown set-up. :butcher:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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I also took the opportunity of making a few measurements. :wink:

The dimensions (those that I could measure in situ) appear to match too. :unsure:

So I'm going to try an alternative - not perfect, but cheaper solution, first .....

Whatever happens, it can only be better than the existing 'bodged' crown set-up. :butcher:

O.K., so I cheated a little bit. :naughty:

Instead of going for a 'Breitling mushroom' style screw-down crown, I've fitted something different, for the time being ....

Something of a 'stop-gap' solution (literally), but I'm rather pleased with the result. :)

I ordered a Cousins' Style I - 5.0mm Ø stainless screw-down crown yesterday:

Cousins-C9064.jpg

Whereas technically 'incorrect' for a Spationaute III, it is an absolutely perfect fit for the watch - dimensionally. :smartass:

It isn't as deep (overall height) as the mushroom style, in fact, it looks more like a Style H - than the Style I illustration.

It doesn't protrude quite as much as I'd expected, probably a good thing, but it's a very good match for the 5.0mm Ø pushers.

It arrived in this morning's post, with a few other goodies from Cousins. I've just fitted it.

Fills the machined recess almost perfectly - screws down (and pops out) just right -

without any modification to the stem length needed.

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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Phew! Glad you got it sorted. I've often done those sort of things myself but with classic cars and bikes (much to the annoyance of the purist tyre kicking anoraks who seem to frequent the shows and have never owned a bike or car of their own!). Well done you and thanks for an interesting read. :notworthy:

Mike

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Phew! Glad you got it sorted.

Not exactly 'sorted', Mike .... just a working interim solution until I can source the correct 'mushroom' style crown. :wink:

But it seems I'm not the only one who's experienced problems with these Yema screw-down crowns. :lookaround:

Earlier I was wading through this web gallery of 50+ photos linked from an eBay auction for a 1989 Yema Flygraf:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jososalv/CliquezIciYemaFlygraf?authkey=Gv1sRgCIL81Lmi6eCg_gE&feat=embedwebsite#

.... which uses the same watch-case as the 43mm Ø Spationaute III, and the same larger 4mm Ø externally threaded crown.

In some of the photos, the crown, which sits in a milled recess appeared to be protuding too far:

YemaFlygraf-1989-7A38-eBay-Nov201025.jpg

Perhaps it wasn't fully screwed down. :unsure:

But then I spotted this:

YemaFlygraf-1989-7A38-eBay-Nov201038.jpg

Looks like someone has fitted an over-sized threaded case tube, and then bushed it to suit the crown spigot. :butcher:

Quote from the seller's description:

le remontoir se device entierement et se revisse.

Which Babelfish conveniently translates as: 'the winder device entirely and is screwed up'. :rofl2:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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One of these days, I'm going to buy myself a good quality modelmakers lathe. Perhaps I should sell a few watches to make room in the study. That'll upset the 710! :hypocrite:

Mike

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Instead of going for a 'Breitling mushroom' style screw-down crown, I've fitted something different, for the time being ....

Something of a 'stop-gap' solution (literally), but I'm rather pleased with the result. :)

I ordered a Cousins' Style I - 5.0mm Ø stainless screw-down crown ....

Whereas technically 'incorrect' for a Spationaute III, it is an absolutely perfect fit for the watch - dimensionally ....

Fills the machined recess almost perfectly - screws down (and pops out) just right -

without any modification to the stem length needed.

And here, slightly belatedly, are a couple of photos of that 'temporary crown' which I've fitted:

P1030514-Resized.jpg

It almost fills the milled recess (certainly better than what was fitted previously) ....

.... and isn't a bad match for the existing 5.0mm Ø pushers - even if I say so myself. :smartass:

P1030515-Resized.jpg

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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As you can see from the above photo, the hands are in dire need of a re-lume. :(

They will be coming off in the very near future. :wink:

But, I've another 'little problem' with this watch (of more anon), which is why they're still in place. :(

While I was b*ggering around with the watch this lunchtime, I rattled off a few more photos. :photo:

P1030510-Resized.jpg

Experimenting (and failing miserably :blush: ) with using a dark (almost black) background. Blame it on David (Spalding). :ph34r:

P1030511-Resized.jpg

The strap I've fitted is a Morellato Shark that I picked up cheaply on eBay. :)

Not the best colour match, though - far too bright a shade of blue, really. :thumbsdown:

P1030512-Resized.jpg

The glossy background (I must remember to laminate the photo in matt finish sleeve next time) .....

.... and the domed crystal played havoc with reflections. But this was just a bit of a practise shoot. :wink:

P1030513-Resized.jpg

Plan to re-do it with my 43mm Ø Spationaute III (the one with the twin flags dial) at some point ....

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Phew! Glad you got it sorted.

Not exactly 'sorted', Mike .... just a working interim solution until I can source the correct 'mushroom' style crown. :wink:

But it seems I'm not the only one who's experienced problems with these Yema screw-down crowns. :lookaround:

In case anybody was thinking (or cared), I hadn't given up on this little parts problem. :umnik2:

I've seen further examples of damaged screw-down crowns on Yema Spationaute III's recently. :(

Firstly, Skip - this one's for you. :wink:

If you're wondering why that most recent Spationaute III on eBay France went so cheaply:

http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160539896155 (it finally sold for a mere 82 Euros, after 3 re-listings).

YemaSpationauteIII-eBayFrance-Jan2011-Another-1.jpg

Apart from the buyer restrictions and methods of payment offered ....

You need to look closely at the eBay seller's second listing photo:

YemaSpationauteIII-eBayFrance-Jan2011-Another-2NoteCrown.jpg

Another reason for lack of bids might be the missing crown ! :thumbsdown:

The seller had also previously advertised this watch on LeBonCoin.fr ....

asking 400 :shocking: Euros: http://www.leboncoin.fr/montres_bijoux/167374449.htm?ca=1_s

(Which was the same as the opening bid price in his first eBay listing).

No mention of the problem with the crown in any of his listings. :nono:

While browsing LeBonCoin.fr yesterday, I came across another 43mm Ø Yema Spationaute III: http://www.leboncoin.fr/montres_bijoux/171816947.htm?ca=1_k .... But this one wasn't for sale :dontgetit: - it was in the 'Wanted' section !

Remontoir pour Yema Spationaute III

YemaSpationauteIII-NotForSale-LeBonCoinFr-Jan2011-ChercheRemontoir.jpg

BONJOUR,

Je cherche un remontoir pour une montre YEMA SPATIONAUTE III.

Plus fabrique par la maison.Cordialement RLG.

So, for any other French readers, and Monsieur 'RLG' in particular ....

Les problèmes avec la couronne à vis de Yema Spationaute III - mis à jour. :artist:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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Over the last couple of months, I've splashed out, and bought myself a couple of the rarer white faced versions. :blush:

And, before anyone asks, No - I didn't buy this one: http://cgi.ebay.fr/Montre-Homme-YEMA-SPATIONAUTE-III-chronographe-Aragatz-/330510148059#ht_8746wt_949

Mine were rather cheaper. :grin:

These watches are 38mm diameter, using exactly the same watch case as the 38mm diameter blue-faced version ....

YemaSpationauteIII-WhiteFace-eBay-Nov2009-2-Larger.jpg

But obviously the 3.0mm externally threaded, 5.25mm Ø screw-down mushroom crown (and pushers) are gold plated.

Both of the two I bought had 'minor issues'. :( Unfortunately, one of them also had a b*ggered crown ! :angry:

Best seen in this (seller's) photo of the case-back:

YemaSpationauteIII-WhiteFace-LeBonCoin-Dec2010-3.jpg

The crown was bent appoximately 15 degrees from the stem axis. :( It was (just) possible to screw it down ....

which I tried - very carefully - but in doing so, it was obviously placing unnecessary lateral strain on the movement.

That, I suspect, probably explains why the dead H.M.S. coil that I also had to replace was completely shorted out. :disgust:

So, I thought I'd try to straighten the crown post - on the basis of 'nothing ventured - nothing gained'. :hammer:

Yes - of course you can straighten (after a fashion) the post on a normal crown, with a bit of care ....

But screw-down crowns, with their spring-loaded inner post, are best left well alone - as I've now learned. :oops:

Here's the offending crown removed from the other white-faced 38mm Spationaute III (which was in pieces at the time):

YemaSpationauteIII-WhiteFace-Crown-P1040136-Resized.jpg

The post may now be straighter, but my efforts at re-crimping the outer post left it somewhat b*ggered in another way. :bangin:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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My first thought was to 'short-cut' the problem; order the gold-plated version of the 5.0mm Style I screw-down crown,

.... which I'd already used as a 'stop-gap fix' on the blue-faced 38mm Spationaute III, from Cousins - their p/n C9036.

Which I did - and it fitted quite nicely, just as the steel version had before - but was 'wrong' in terms of originality. <_<

It was still bugging the hell out of me, that I hadn't properly resolved the problem. :furious:

I'd already wasted at least an hour in two separate phone calls to Cousins' customer service people. :fool:

On Monday, I thought I'd just check if they had amended or corrected their descriptions on the Style J crowns. :book:

They had. :dontgetit: Though it made even less sense to me now, and as it turns out, they were both still quite wrong. :rolleyes:

This is what they now had against their part number C9039:

Screw-DownCrown-C9039ISOSwiss31527-a.jpg

It 'ticks all the right boxes', in what I now needed for the white-faced 38mm Ø Spationaute III ....

Except that for 'Use Tube K' .... because Tube K is 4.0mm externally threaded - not 3.0mm !!! :censored:

Knowing Cousins UK operate a strict non-return policy (except in cases of their error) ....

I wasn't about to blow 20 Quid in ordering a part, with a suspect description, for it not to fit. :no:

So I decided it was about time I phoned the manufacturer ISO Swiss :telephone:, to try to get to the bottom of this.

A couple of phone calls later, :phone1: to a very helpful (and knowledgeable) young lady at ISO Swiss ....

Who incidentally wasn't their 'crown specialist', but spoke perfect English, with a lovely French accent :man_in_love:

I received an email with a useful table, thoughtfully embedded in it:

Hello Paul,

I made a copy of the part you are interested in.

According to your information I think the pieces you need are Articles 31027 and 31527.

I enclose the general catalogue for your information.

There are no Crowns, there is another catalogue but it’s not for private use. Sorry !!

I hope you will find below all details you need:

Screw-DownCrowns-ISOSwissData.jpg

I will check on the Cousins website and answer you asap.

Regards,

Note that both the steel and gold-plated versions of their 4.5mm and 5.25mm Tap 0.9mm crowns all use the same tube. :wink:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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See: http://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/4/661/1975.aspx - and scroll down to 'J' and 'K'.

I may be getting somewhere already. :) Thanks to Cousins for the clue:

Crowns - Style J/K Screwdown Crown With External Thread - ISO Swiss

They're obviously made by ISO Swiss: http://www.isoswiss.ch/default.asp?Language=EN

See: http://www.isoswiss.ch/CMS/default.asp?ID=1669 and maybe this: http://www.isoswiss.ch/modules/shop/showcategory.asp?ID=160

One slightly incorrect assumption I'd made earlier, was that the crowns used on the Spationaute III were made by ISO Swiss.

The helpful young lady I spoke to at ISO Swiss pointed out that ISO Swiss had only existed as a company for 5 years or so.

Whereas, here was I, vainly struggling to source crowns for 20+ year old watches, without any OEM parts information. :umnik2:

She suggested that the original supplier to Yema (C.G.H.) would probably have been Pibor S.A.. :dontgetit:

Again, not the current modern company Pibor ISO S.A. http://www.pibor.ch/index_en.php - but it's predecessor.

However, ISO Swiss distributed screw-down crowns, still made to older Pibor patterns, by the current Pibor (ISO) S.A.. :huh:

So, on the basis that Cousins listed 6 different 'ISO Swiss' screw-down 'mushroom' crowns (between Styles J and K),

and ISO Swiss also listed 6 different variations of a very similar appearing mushroom-style crown (see the table above) ....

I decided to take a chance on it, and ordered Cousins' part numbers C9039 (gold plated) and C9067 (Stainless).

In the hope (fingers crossed) that they were directly equivalent to ISO Swiss part numbers 31527 and 31027.

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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I decided to take a chance on it, and ordered Cousins' part numbers C9039 (gold plated) and C9067 (Stainless).

In the hope (fingers crossed) that they were directly equivalent to ISO Swiss part numbers 31527 and 31027.

The package from Cousins UK duly arrived - and I opened it with some trepidation. :unsure:

Cousins part number C9039 is exactly equivalent to ISO Swiss part number 31527. :thumbsup:

It's 5.25mm diameter; 5.75mm overall length; Tap 0.9mm and 3.0mm externally threaded - not 4.0mm !! :sweatdrop:

So what they've written in their description 'Use Tube K' is total :bull*******:

The crown fitted the 38mm white-faced Spationaute III perfectly, in a matter of minutes, and looks identical !! :clap:

However I struck out by ordering part number C9067, on the off-chance it might fit the blue-faced 38mm Spationaute III. :angry:

This is what Cousins have written in their current website description:

Screw-DownCrown-CousinsC9067.jpg

In fact, compared to p/n C9039, it turns out to be much closer to being correct. There is only one error ....

But a very significant one, because the overall length of what they supplied was 7.0mm - not 5.75mm !!

In case that specification: 5.25mm Ø ; 7.0mm overall length; Tap 0.9mm and 4.0mm external thread sounds familiar ....

What Cousins keep in stock, under their p/n C9067 is the correct crown for a 43mm Ø Spationaute III or a 1989 Flygraf !

Which, as you can see from my first post on the previous page, I already had a good used one in my spares stock. :censored:

Knowing Cousins UK operate a strict non-return policy (except in cases of their error) ....

Which of course, under Cousins' T&C's, I'd be perfectly within my rights to return. :wink:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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