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SEIKO7A38

Puma 7A38 .... By Orient

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I am not a big fan of sports-branded fashion apparel :thumbsdown: - and especially football-related brands. :yucky:

In fact, I'd go as far as to say I wouldn't be seen dead in anything by the likes of Adidas, Puma or Umbro. :bad:

It seems, however, that I may have to make a small exception in the case of Puma.

Amongst other 'sports fashion accessories', they sell watches, and have done for many years.

They've a big home market in Germany, natürlich. I found this marketing 'spiel' on a German website:

Puma was founded as the Dassler Brothers’ Shoe Factory in Herzogenaurach, Germany, in 1924. Puma watches are focussed on uniting the influences of the world of sport, lifestyle and fashion, a target that can be clearly seen in the current watch collection – ladies’ and men’s sports watches that equally symbolise the brand’s characteristics such as unmistakable styling, individuality, spontaneity and international appeal. In terms of functionality, Puma wristwatches are deeply rooted in the world of sports and are connected to the unforgettable sports performance of excellent athletes that have written history in the arenas of the world.

I'd suspect however, that Puma don't actually manufacture their own watches. :protest:

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Before I waffle on any further, though .... :whistle:

I'd like to say a big 'Thank You' :hi: to both Derek ('Luvwatch') and Paul('66') :cheers: ....

.... who both, almost simultaneously emailed me the eBay auction link, on 2nd January - within minutes of each other.

Puma!!

Hi Paul, and Happy New Year - saw this auction below, looks suspiciously like a 7A38?

PUMA 7A38??????????????????

First one I have seen! Got to be a must have for you Paul surely?

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See: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250750999357

Seltener Puma Herren Chronograph,Reg.Nr.Y 19001-70 CA

Puma7A38-Y19001-70-eBay-Jan2011-2.jpgPuma7A38-Y19001-70-eBayGermany-Jan2010-5Rotated.jpg

(seller's listing included 6 photos of varying quality)

Seltener orginal Puma Herrenchronograph mit Tages und Datumsanzeige.

Uhr und Chronographen unktionieren einwandfrei.

Gebrauchsspuren sind vorhanden.Glas Hat Kratzer.

Armband ist auch von Puma.

Rest siehe Bilder ....

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Whereas, both Derek and Paul quoted the magic word '7A38' (implying Seiko) ....

and the familiar tri-compax sub-dial day + date configuration obviously suggests that,

as soon as I saw the eBay listing and the seller’s photos, and particularly this image:

Puma7A38-Y19001-70-eBay-Jan2011-CaseBackStampings.jpg

.... of the case-back stampings, I was thinking Orient (J39), rather than Seiko (7A38). :smartass:

Note the similarities of the Puma Y19001-70 stampings to those of an Orient J39 case-back:

Orient-7A38-5-Resized.jpg

Indeed, I was considering tacking this onto the existing Orient J39 thread: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52124 :unsure:

But as there appear to be a certain few forum members who dislike my habit of replying to my own threads :tongue2:

.... I’ve started a new one. :wink2:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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Indeed, I was considering tacking this onto the existing Orient J39 thread ....

Well, maybe it's just as well that I didn't (in hindsight). :blush:

I only picked this up from my local Royal Fail snorting office at tea-time.

So I hadn't really had the time to study it in detail, before I started writing the thread. :hypocrite:

That'll teach me to be a :smartass: :oops:

Whereas there are some obvious similarities to the (3) Orient J39's I already have in my collection ....

.... and possibly even a high proportion of common / shared parts, which I'll go on to explain in detail ....

I thought I'd just unscrew the case-back to confirm my suspicions of how the movement was signed. :hammer:

Expecting to find Orient and J3920, rather than Seiko and 7A38(A) - right ? :unsure:

Wrong. :thumbsdown:

How about JEPIC Corp. and Y19 ??? :eek:

It seems my epic 7A38 voyage of discovery continues unabated. :lookaround:

A quick google on JEPIC Corp., reveals: Japan Electric Power Information Center, Inc.

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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I am not a big fan of sports-branded fashion apparel :thumbsdown: - and especially football-related brands. :yucky:

In fact, I'd go as far as to say I wouldn't be seen dead in anything by the likes of Adidas, Puma or Umbro. :bad:

It seems, however, that I may have to make a small exception in the case of Puma.

Amongst other 'sports fashion accessories', they sell watches, and have done for many years.

They've a big home market in Germany, natürlich. I found this marketing 'spiel' on a German website:

Puma was founded as the Dassler Brothers’ Shoe Factory in Herzogenaurach, Germany, in 1924. Puma watches are focussed on uniting the influences of the world of sport, lifestyle and fashion, a target that can be clearly seen in the current watch collection – ladies’ and men’s sports watches that equally symbolise the brand’s characteristics such as unmistakable styling, individuality, spontaneity and international appeal. In terms of functionality, Puma wristwatches are deeply rooted in the world of sports and are connected to the unforgettable sports performance of excellent athletes that have written history in the arenas of the world.

I'd suspect however, that Puma don't actually manufacture their own watches. :protest:

Did you know (or care...). The two Dassler brothers split in 1948. Rudolph forming Puma...and his brother Adolf (nicknamed "Adi") formed....ta dah....Adidas (ADI DASsler). And now you know the rest of the story...lol.

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Did you know (or care...). The two Dassler brothers split in 1948. Rudolph forming Puma...and his brother Adolf (nicknamed "Adi") formed....ta dah....Adidas (ADI DASsler). And now you know the rest of the story...lol.

Yes, I did know :wink2: - but really didn't care. :schmoll:

I've seen various articles in the UK press over the last few years. :read:

Example here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/puma-vs-adidas-return-of-the-battle-of-the-boots-475377.html

More recently: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1214426/Adidas-Puma-end-bitter-feud-60-years.html

For more than 60 years, the family feud has divided two of the world's biggest sporting brands.

It was sparked by an Allied bombing raid and has taken in the Nazi party, Olympic skulduggery and some of the biggest ....

Just strikes me as publicity seeking - advertising on the cheap. 'Taken in' being the operative words. :rolleyes:

Now if there was also an Adidas '7A38' out there, to be found .... that's another story. :naughty:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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Whereas there are some obvious similarities to the (3) Orient J39's I already have in my collection ....

.... and possibly even a high proportion of common / shared parts, which I'll go on to explain in detail ....

So why was I so convinced (still am) that despite the JEPIC Corp. stampings, that this watch was made by Orient ? :dontgetit:

Well I did a complete strip down on it yesterday - mostly to give it a good clean. :hammer:

I was hoping for some better light, this morning, to take photos. Doesn't look like I'm going to get it. :(

So here, first of all is a Q&D (by flash :photo:) of the dial face / movement:

P1030983-Resized.jpg

As you can see, the (visible) dial face printing at the bottom is is identical: JAPAN S1 001

The printing which is hidden under the Tachymeter dial ring is Y190 3017 - a very similar format to the Orient J39.

See quote and photo from the Orient J39 thread below.

And I'm pretty sure I've seen that main handset used on various Orient watches too. :wink:

Other than 'Orient' being printed in the correct font, all other scripts are in standard Seiko fonts -

Including the small dial face identifiers either side of the 6 o'clock subdial ....

Which say simply 'Japan' and 'S1 001'.

Removing the Tachymeter dial ring also exposed another dial face indicator / Orient part number which was hidden beneath it.

Better seen in this (somewhat accidentally) lightened photo of the dial face.

P1010314-Resized.jpg

The additional printing reads: J392 0017

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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The watch case; same gold-plated (Seiko ?) 3.5mm Ø x 6.5mm pushers and 4.5mm Ø x 3.0mm crown are all identical.

Puma Y19 (Movement stamped JEPIC CORP. Y19):

P1030984-Resized.jpg

Orient J39 (Movement stamped Orient J3920):

P1030054-Resized.jpg

The only differences being the bezels fitted - gold-plated rotating 'Diver style' on the Orient; two-tone fixed on the Puma.

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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In this photo, you can see the edge of the machined surface - the track on which the Orient J39's 'Diver' bezel would turn:

P1030986-Resized.jpg

Obviously, the fixed bezel on the Puma version needed to be this chunky to cover the Orient's 'Diver bezel' flange.

In fact, it also uses exactly the same 31.0mm Ø x 2.55mm crystal (with a 45° polished bevelled edge) as the Orient.

A total over-kill, in this case - but necessary (only) to fill the depth of the bezel - and expediency, I suspect.

The original crystal was quite badly scratched. For the time being I've fitted a Seiko p/n 310W64GN00 ....

as used in the 7A28-7040/9; 7A38-7070/-7080, etc. It's 31.0mm Ø x 2.0 thick (with a 45° polished bevelled edge),

But I'll replace it soon with a 31.0mm Ø x 2.5mm thick crystal - probably one without the bevelled edge.

I can't see any purpose to having that bevelled edge on this watch - other than to catch dust and muck.

Here's another photo of the head, again by flash :photo:, unfortunately:

P1030985-Resized.jpg

Note the slightly different Tachymeter dial ring used in the Puma ....

The words TACHY METER are to the left of '60', and printed with a gap.

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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Moving onto the bracelet(s) ....

Similarities between the Orient and Puma bracelets are all too obvious (again classic heavy Seiko folded-link construction):

Orient:

P1010332-Resized.jpg

P1010335-Resized.jpg

Puma:

P1030987-Resized.jpg

Note: exactly the same (large sized) arrows stamped on the back of the removeable adjustment links.

The bracelets are both fixed with the same (again larger than most Seiko 7A38's) 20mm x 1.8mm Ø spring-bars:

Orient:

P1010656-Resized.jpg

Puma:

P1030989-Resized.jpg

Apart from the obvious similarity of their case-back stampings ....

The Orient J39 bracelet(s) are stamped SA160, and the Puma's is stamped SA165. Same place, same tooling. :wink:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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Remember that (badly graunched) short clasp closer, which came fitted on my most recently acquired Orient J39 ? :huh:

It came fitted with a different style shorter Orient signed clasp to that fitted to the ex-Kurt J39601-70.

That's probably the most graunched part of the watch. Also, I'm convinced that the Z-fold isn't original. :thumbsdown:

This is what came fitted on the bracelet. I believe that the clasp closer is the original (but not the Z-fold part):

P1020949-Resized.jpg

Well, if these two 16mm bracelet clasps weren't stamped by virtually identical press tools - I'm a Dutchman ! :hammer:

P1030990-Resized.jpg

Sadly, the Puma bracelet has had a few adjustment links removed. As found, it was too small to fit my 7½" wrist. :(

Which means, for the time being, I'll be fitting one of Cousins' generic 16mm clasps:

Cousins16mmStainlessClasp.jpg

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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So there you have it ....

Puma Y19 by the Orient Watch Company - or by SEIKO Corporation, if it was actually they who built the Orient J39's. :unsure:

The $64K question remains: Who is JEPIC Corp., and what was their actual involvement in manufacturing the watch ? :huh:

A quick google on JEPIC Corp., reveals: Japan Electric Power Information Center, Inc.

Not only is this Puma Y19001-70's (7A38) movement's backplate stamped JEPIC CORP. (and Y19) ....

But it's also stamped inside the case-back (which again is dimensionally identical to the Orient J39's):

P1030991-Resized.jpg

PS - I'll follow up with some better (non flash :photo:) photos of the Puma Y19, when I've changed the crystal (once again) ....

.... and the available (day)light improves. :wink:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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- (Then) I'm a Dutchman !

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Erm :unsure: I think we may be having a slight Trans-Atlantic communication problem here, Skip. :help:

(As was apparently the case with 'Mechanical Alarm' in another 7A38 thread, last week).

See: http://englishwithsunil.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/and-i-am-a-dutchman-or-then-i-am-a-dutchman/ ..... You're not supposed to be agreeing with me ! :no: :rofl2:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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... Indeed, I was considering tacking this onto the existing Orient J39 thread: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52124 :unsure:

But as there appear to be a certain few forum members who dislike my habit of replying to my own threads :tongue2:

.... I’ve started a new one. :wink2:

BS. It's EASIER to follow along and find your investigations when they're continuing in a single thread. My 2p.

Regardless, it's an appealing watch (and you know how I don't like some of these) with a really nice dial (I particularly like the dial and hand colors).

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It's EASIER to follow along and find your investigations when they're continuing in a single thread.

In hindsight, it certainly would have saved me some copying and pasting between the two threads, David ! :sweatdrop:

However, because it isn't (officially) an Orient J39, but a Puma Y19 by JEPIC Corp. .... I thought it deserved it's own. :wink:

PS: Next time I update the Orient J39 thread, I'll cross-reference this one. O.K.? :thumbsup:

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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Guest Om_nom_nom_Watches!

The $64K question remains: Who is JEPIC Corp., and what was their actual involvement in manufacturing the watch ? :huh:

Lol. Great name for a company. Sounds as though they might have made watches for superheroes. :D

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Lol. Great name for a company. Sounds as though they might have made watches for superheroes. :D

Did you miss my earlier little attempt at wordplay, Rob ? :wink:

How about JEPIC Corp. and Y19 ??? :eek:

It seems my epic 7A38 voyage of discovery continues unabated. :lookaround:

A quick google on JEPIC Corp., reveals: Japan Electric Power Information Center, Inc.

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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I'll follow up with some better (non flash :photo:) photos of the Puma Y19, when I've changed the crystal (once again) ....

I'm rather disappointed by the results. This is the best of a bad bunch:

P1040101-Resized.jpg

This 'warts and all' photo shows up the badly-worn plated sections of the two-tone bezel - in dire need of re-plating.

Fitting a replacement crystal of the correct 2.5mm thickness (but with a smaller polished bevel edge than the original),

seems to have served little purpose - other than to highlight the fact that the crystal is held in by a white nylon gasket.

I presume this is a Sternkruez part (same gasket used on the Orient J39's). I may try changing it for a black Seiko one.

It wasn't so apparent with the original (scratched) crystal fitted, but then that did have a ring of dirt trapped around it's edge.

Moral of the story ? Instead of diving in and buying the first example I come across, simply because it's a very rare 7A38 ....

Wait for a better example to come along. If one ever does, that is. But the temptation at the time is usually over-powering.

Edited by SEIKO7A38Fan

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.... of the case-back stampings, I was thinking Orient (J39), rather than Seiko (7A38). :smartass:

Note the similarities of the Puma Y19001-70 stampings to those of an Orient J39 case-back:

Indeed, I was considering tacking this onto the existing Orient J39 thread .... http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=52124

It now seems I've been fully vindicated in my earlier assumptions that the Puma Y19's were made by Orient,

with my recent 'discovery' of the Orient J39725-70 - which is effectively Orient's own version of the Puma Y19:

P1070500.jpg

See Page 8 of My Newest Incoming 7A38 - Sorry- Orient J39....

Before I forget, here's another photo of the Puma Y19001-70 which I hadn't included in this thread:

P1040100-Resized.jpg

Edited by SEIKO7A38

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Moral of the story ? Instead of diving in and buying the first example I come across, simply because it's a very rare 7A38 ....

Wait for a better example to come along. If one ever does, that is. But the temptation at the time is usually over-powering.

So what had I done (yet again), particularly with this latest Orient J39 'beater', on the wrong bracelet. :rolleyes:

Having immediately recognized that this Orient J39 and the Puma Y19 shared a lot of common parts ....

My first thought was to have a look for another Puma Y19, to re-case the Orient J39's panda dial into.

First port of call - eBay Germany - home of Puma (natürlich). What did I find, almost straight away ? :eek:

PUMA Quartz - Chronograph - titanisiert in Bi-Color-Optik - 80er Jahre - TOP

Puma7A38-Y19201-70-eBayGermany-Nov2011.jpg

Die Uhr hat für ihr Alter (gekauft 1989) nur wenige Gebrauchsspuren.

Das Gehäuse und das Gliederarmband sind titanisiert (dunkelgrau)

mit goldfarbenen Applikationen (ganz im Stil der späten 80er Jahre).

Die Originalverpackung und die Gebrauchsanleitung liegen bei.

Die Batterie wurde vom Uhrmacher NEU eingebaut.

Das Uhrwerk ist noch eines aus der "guten, qualitätsvollen Zeit" von SEIKO!

Ist etwas für Uhrensammler - ich trage sie nicht mehr und gebe sie deshalb ab.

Not quite what I was looking for, but a different 'Titanium'-colour coated version of the Puma Y19 - model Y19201-70.

It arrived this morning. :) Vielen Dank, Werner. :thumbsup:

Despite the scratched crystal, odd dings and some rubbing wear to the bracelet coating and bezel plating ....

It's in pretty nice used, but well-cared-for condition - much better than my previous Puma Y19001-70.

It came with the original box, instructions and guarantee - and the bonus of a spare adjustment link.

A bit of decent (sun) daylight permitting at the weekend, and I'll attempt a few photos of my own. :photo:

Edited by SEIKO7A38

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It came with the original box, instructions and guarantee ....

I was half hoping that little leaflet might give some clues as to the watch's origins / manufacturer.

But it turned out to be just a 'generic' Puma leaflet for all their quartz watches (best ignore the '2011' printed on the reverse)

without any instructions for this model's chronograph operation. No mention of Seiko, Orient, nor even 'Made in Japan'. :no:

PumaLeafletFront.jpg

PumaLeafletBack.jpg

Despite however what the seller perhaps knowingly wrote in his eBay listing description:

Das Uhrwerk ist noch eines aus der "guten, qualitätsvollen Zeit" von SEIKO!

I've had the case-back off, and the movement back-plate is again stamped JEPIC CORP. Y19 - as expected, this time. :grin:

Edited by SEIKO7A38

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You, sir, are the Indiana Jones of 7A38s. I hear the "brump-da-da-DAAAAAH" theme whenever I check into these threads. :cheers:

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You, sir, are the Indiana Jones of 7A38s.

Cheers, David. :hi: I prefer to think of myself as the 'Dick Tracy', actually - hence the avatar. :grin:

I hear the "brump-da-da-DAAAAAH" theme (
) whenever I check into these threads.

Theme music to Warren Beatty's 1990 re-make of Dick Tracy isn't bad, either:

Edited by SEIKO7A38

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