Jump to content
  • Sign Up to reply and join the friendliest Watch Forum on the web. Stick around, get to 50 posts and gain access to your full profile and additional features such as a personal messaging system, chat room and the sales forum PLUS the chance to enter our regular giveaways.
johnbaz

Sackville?

Recommended Posts

Hi

I bought this little watch from the bootsale a couple of weeks ago and forgot about it!

I paid the princely sum of a quid for it, It was wound down so I gave it a couple of turns as I was walking round the bootsale and couldn't believe it when it ticked into life :thumbsup:

It was running slow and it appears that someone has moved the regulator too much, i've made an adjustment which has made it gain a minute a day roughly so a few more adjustments will be necessary, it cleaned up rather nicely though I haven't touched the silvered Guilloche dial...

It's quite small at 30mm including crown but has a nice quality rolled gold case which isn't worn at all but some numpty has slipped with a knife whilst gaining entry to the movement, This numpty (me!) unfortunately added to the scars when I tried gaining access :oops:

SV2.jpg

SV5.jpg

SV1.jpg

I also bought a Timex which runs too :wink: (it cost a quid too!!)

John :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very nice John, a great find :thumbsup:

I wonder, do you think it might have belonged to one a member of the Baggins family? :huh: :lol:

Edited by mach 0.0013137

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is a hot lead to the owner of this "Sackville"-trade mark:

In a german watch forum there was another request about this trade mark, in this case for a pocket watch. Inside the case there was a mark "CLB" in an oval, that belongs to Helvetia / La Generale / General Watch Co. from Bienne (had many names). I identified the movement as a Helvetia. The movement here above is made by Helvetia too (cal. 82A-28).

And there was another Sackville-pocket watch in the internet, also with that CLB-mark from Helvetia.

So I had the hot suspicion that "Sackville" is a trade mark from Helvetia, obviously for export to America (all watch movements had typical american information: "Adjusted in xx positions" / Swiss Made etc.). Until now a very hot lead, but I only reach 99% certainty.

So one question to John: Is in your watch case also the CLB-mark or any other case makers mark?

Regards, Andreas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many thanks Andreas :thumbsup:

That's very interesting B)

I really thought it would be a small company that had fallen by the wayside decades ago...

Regards, John :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What a coincidence! I have an identical model which I purchased from someone on TZ-UK in 2009. The gold plating on mine is a little more worn and mine also has different, less ornate, hands but apart from that it really is identical. I wear mine of a rather nice pale tan open ended pig skin strap.

Thanks to Mikrolisk for the lead on the Sackville brand.

P.S. Congratulations on an excellent purchase!

Edited by Markrlondon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got one too, it used to belong to my Grandfather. He got it using Black Cat cigarrete coupons. It's not as good condition, the gold plating has worn through, it is working again after sitting in a box with a load of old photos since the mid 70's. It has CLB in an oval stamped. Hope the images come up ok, it's my first post here.

SDC10144.jpg

SDC10141.jpg

SDC10145.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got one too, it used to belong to my Grandfather. He got it using Black Cat cigarrete coupons. It's not as good condition, the gold plating has worn through, it is working again after sitting in a box with a load of old photos since the mid 70's. It has CLB in an oval stamped. Hope the images come up ok, it's my first post here.

Welcome, and thank you for an excellent first post. Even in well-worn condition it's a lovely watch, isn't it.

I'll post some photos of mine in due course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is my grandfather's pocket watch (not Sailor Bill lol), he would have had a gold pocket watch too, if he and six other buyers at his firm hadn't been 'let go' after over 40 years service during the 'retrenchment' of the Manchester textile industry.

IMG_20200708_190932504(1).thumb.jpg.4400bc08e85a402c39f243613e35b0a5.jpg

IMG_20200708_190331210(1).thumb.jpg.4249a82b6084053dde3ed87a8a2c7d15.jpg

IMG_20200708_190351294.thumb.jpg.7502f4228af80cda5234297b81c2b3c3.jpg

He was very lucky to find another job, and they rewarded him rather better, with an occupational pension AND a presentation wrist-watch on his retirement. 

He was a jolly clever chap, taught himself piano and saxophone, learned French at night school, and had his own dance band.  Until he got married. 

My mum says Grandma saved him from eternal bachelorhood and generally having a good time smoking, drinking and playing in clubs (I think he was about 40).

'Saved'  :biggrin:

 It still runs, sets, and has a decent rate.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, spinynorman said:

Very nice watch. Looks like we should have a Sackville club. No CLB anywhere on yours?

Yes it is stamped in the case back but rather rubbed and only faint.

 

You can make out the B at least in the picture I think

Edited by Jet Jetski
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been hunting for some clue where the Sackville name came from. Little doubt it's General Watch, from the CLB mark on all the ones I've seen, but I can't find a registration anywhere. I looked for it as a place name, or the name of a jeweller, but nothing clicks.

All the watches I've seen have the same ripple textured dial.

Don't know why I'm bothered, since I don't have one myself. Just one of those mysteries that annoys me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, spinynorman said:

I've been hunting for some clue where the Sackville name came from. Little doubt it's General Watch, from the CLB mark on all the ones I've seen, but I can't find a registration anywhere. I looked for it as a place name, or the name of a jeweller, but nothing clicks.

All the watches I've seen have the same ripple textured dial.

Don't know why I'm bothered, since I don't have one myself. Just one of those mysteries that annoys me.

FWIW, see here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-sackville-helvetia-swiss-1777622760

Possibly speculation, which could be right, wrong, or indifferent.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Balaton1109 said:

FWIW, see here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-sackville-helvetia-swiss-1777622760

Possibly speculation, which could be right, wrong, or indifferent.

@johnbaz @Always"watching"

I just noticed, one of the previous contributors said his grandfather got the watch with Black Cat cigarette coupons.

From Wikipedia "The Black Cat cigarette was introduced in 1904 as one of the first machine-made cigarettes manufactured in Britain. ... In 1910 Black Cat began full-scale coupon trading, offering gifts such as pipe fillers and other smokers' requisites. ... By [the early 1920s], coupon trading was fiercely competitive and the Black Cat gift catalogue offered gramophone records, gardening equipment, gentlemen's razors, automobile accessories and wirelesses. ... The cigarette manufacturers agreed to withdraw coupons on 1 January 1934."

A Black Cat catalogue offered at Abe Books ''Every gift shown in this book is British made ... Contents include gifts of all description" Including "Sackvill (sic) clocks and gramophones".

Picture from picclickimg.com of a "Sackville" Series square clock for 250 coupons. Haven't been able to find a similar offer for watches.

Tobacco-Card-Carreras-Black-Cat-Cigarett

Black Cat also offered watches by Elkington, "the court jewellers of Regent Street" with "15-jewelled lever Swiss movement in British-made case".

s-l1600.jpg

Worthpoint ad for a 1930's Sackville Major Wind-up Gramophone.

And a Worthpoint ad for a Sackville Railway lever pocket watch engraved "HM Train Ferries 1917".

I'm drifting towards a tentative hypothesis that Sackville watches were made by GWC for the British market, and the Sackville brand had wider connotations.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, johnbaz said:

WOWSER!!

Sherlock Holmes would be proud of you mate :thumbsup::notworthy:

 

John :)

Thanks. Though it's kind of a curse, this curiosity. :biggrin:

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello all,

I'm 99% sure Sackville is a trade name of Helvetia/General Watch Co. Every Sackville watch I've seen has had a Helvetia movement and most GW Co cases.

Have a look at my site here for movements: https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/movements

They mainly seem to be pocket watches and clocks for the UK market.

If they have serial numbers you can use my lookup to date them: https://www.helvetiahistory.co.uk/serial-numbers

This is a nice purse watch. Helvetia Cal 81 movement. Serial number dates it to 1931.

CHnpX4G.jpg

kQJ8gxJ.jpg

81QjUGW.jpg

gGS5Bz4.jpg

hbxkkkx.jpg

Thanks.

Carl

 

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 29/07/2020 at 13:45, Carlos Fandango said:

I'm 99% sure Sackville is a trade name of Helvetia/General Watch Co. Every Sackville watch I've seen has had a Helvetia movement and most GW Co cases.

Your site was one of the places I visited looking for leads on Sackville, very interesting and useful resource.

The watch you've posted is interesting, with its case made by Rodi & Wienenberger. Was that a common choice for other General Watch Co brands? I just can't get away from the possibility GWC made watches for someone else who owned the Sackville name.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 31/07/2020 at 18:35, spinynorman said:

Your site was one of the places I visited looking for leads on Sackville, very interesting and useful resource.

The watch you've posted is interesting, with its case made by Rodi & Wienenberger. Was that a common choice for other General Watch Co brands? I just can't get away from the possibility GWC made watches for someone else who owned the Sackville name.

Hello. I've not seen another case made by them for Helvetia but the purse watch is unusual. They did use many different case manufacturers, The fact that the case has a Helvetia serial number on it shows that it came as a whole from them rather than Sackville buying in the movement.

It was not unusual for other brands to take whole watches from Helvetia, including serial number, and just put their names on them. I've seen Helbros, Aero, Huber, Nisus, Nallog, Angora, Abercrombie & Fitch, Ditis and others with completely Helvetia made watches but with their own name on the dial.

Most of these brands also used other manufacturers as well. Sackville is like another brand I've found, The Fenchurch Lever Watch, which seems to be Australian, in that they only seem to use Helvetia/General Watch Co watches and I'm not sure if they are actually part of General Watch Co or not.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, spinynorman said:

Another little thing that niggles - who or what is CLB? Presumably it stands for something.

I haven't been able to find any more on CLB beyond that General Watch Co registered it in 1931.

From what I can see it seems to be only applied to rolled gold cases so maybe is something to do with that. The whole Sackville line seems to consist of rolled gold and plated cases so I wonder if it was a cheaper line that Helvetia didn't want to put their name to. It strikes me as an 'English' trade name and not Swiss.

I bought the watch below yesterday. These are the only pics so far but definitely Helvetia by the serial number on the back. Wouldn't be surprised if it was a 'Sackville' though. I'll have to see what the inside tells us when I get it.

9Uh71gb.jpg GVjBu0R.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Carlos Fandango said:

The whole Sackville line seems to consist of rolled gold and plated cases so I wonder if it was a cheaper line that Helvetia didn't want to put their name to. It strikes me as an 'English' trade name and not Swiss.

I've bought the Black Cat cigarette coupon catalogue I referred to above. I hope it may give some clue about Sackville. Just waiting for it to arrive.

Your new acquisition looks interesting. Let us know what you find out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 04/08/2020 at 15:40, spinynorman said:

I've bought the Black Cat cigarette coupon catalogue I referred to above. I hope it may give some clue about Sackville. Just waiting for it to arrive.

Your new acquisition looks interesting. Let us know what you find out.

Arrived yesterday, unfortunately nothing inside the case at all.

Nice condition Helvetia 81-24 movement as expected. I'll lay money on this being sold as Sackville originally. I'll take some more pics when it's on a nice strap.

FKlQKF2l.jpg 9R0in27l.jpg hUNjClIl.jpg

 

I'd be interested to see what's in the catalogue

Thanks.

Carl

Edited by Carlos Fandango
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...